Great video. Your discussion of PEC was a especially germaine and educational. I never thought of trying guide exposures of 3 to 4 seconds but I will certainly try that on my EQ6RPRO
Hey i use those rubber pads religiously also for Astro photography.. i will try the metal .. thanks i always learn something from your videos !! Thank you 🙏🏼
Got out and took some of my first images last week. I think i did ok, but a lot of learning still. I'm having trouble processing the images. I've learned so much from watching these videos. Thank u so much. It was so much fun, I'm hooked.🤣
Thank you for the super helpful information!! I 100% agree about testing equipment, it’s the best method for success. I have metal on my redwood deck; it’s old, but tough as a tractor that never quits 💪
I do AP with the rubber feet (very nice wood floor on my balcony so no spikes...) I get .3 rms sometimes so it is not really relevant but the issue I observed is Polar alignment. The rubber feet are getting squished by the weight of the scope depending where it is pointing at the moment and the PA changes slightly! So if you can - use the spikes!
@@WilliamBlakers They do that too. That said if you polar align then walk to other side of scope you can see PA move. Another reason I switched to steel spikes and pavement.
The best part of Harmonic Mounts for me is the fact you can get a traditional EQ mount at significant discounts as people upgrade. Great point though on the backlash play and wind shake though.
I have 2 EQ6R Pro mounts and I love them. We can adjust for backlash and not worry that the whole rig will blow over. I love that some folks feel as though they need the newest “thing” because you are right…. The prices for other gear comes down. I’m watching the zwo 2600 cameras do the same thing. The old 2600s are coming down but are just as good for me because I already have guide scopes and the weight is not a problem.
Spot on explination. I've also found that putting the guide scope to 1.5sec works well, where the HEQ5 benefited from a 3sec exposure. I've heard of people dropping it to 0.5sec, but I find with the ASI120mm, there just is not enough exposure. Knowing you also have the ASIAir, I would love to see an expansion on this in regards to aggression optimization and Cal Step etc.
now that more strain wave mount options are sturting to pop up I don't see a reason for most amateurs to go with a classic worm drive mount, for similar if not lower prices you get no backlash, incredible performance out of the box, a light mount and huge payloads. I gambled when buying one of the first Umis and I couldn't have done a better choice
They hit limits on guiding performance when you get to the bigger refractors and >8" scts. Even guided with decent RMS there are examples where star shape suffers due to short but sharp PE. But for smaller scopes and Portability it's a good tradeoff.
Yeah as a few videos by Cuiv showed the weakness in wind for the strain wave mount was the carbon tripod that the am5 came with. Nuggets carbon legs with screw in extensions definitely a big improvement. I have to say the Ieq45pro looks lovely though almost looks like an astrophysics mount
This is a good video. There are key concepts here such as if you want a wind-proof strainwave mount, get a heavier tripod and do not care so much about the mount head weight compared to a traditional GEM. I would just point out that the play in the RA axis is non important as an example of backlash since you will never get the RA worm gear to reverse but only speed up or slow down. You may want to see if there is some play in the DEC axis instead.
The latest update from ZWO seems to gotten my two-year-old AM5 consistently well below 1 arc second guiding. I had been guiding consistently under or close to 1", but there seemed to be a definite step change. A few days ago it was chugging along at 0.37" and 1.85-pixel average star size. None of my settings were changed. My impression is that there was still room for improvement in the guiding algorithm. Either that or my seeing has just been exceptional the last few times out.
As much as this guy knows and a lot of good points, I do find it funny that he never shows the images he takes. He is really into the technology, engineering, & HW. Granted most channels seem to go just for the images and gloss over the HW. Though I would like to see the fruits of his labor as well of his appreciation for the engineering.
If you have seen my dancer battle update video I was not really able to image for about 3-4 months. But now getting back into it. That said last few videos do not need images. Would have not point to it too.
I'd love a strainwave mount to use out in the field but sadly I don't have the budget for one so I still use the traditional equatorial worm drive mounts which do a decent enough job but not as portable. maybe I'll get a second hand one in a few years which I guess will prove how good they are over time
I have a C8 and I image mostly at 1442mm but sometimes at 2032mm. I’ve been in the hobby almost a year. I have an AVX mount and through research, trial and error error I’ve managed some guiding success with this mount. I’ve seen average RMS be between 0.60” and 0.70” go for as long as half an hour then suddenly to DEC or RA goes to LaLa land, 2.5”. No wind or anything noticeable. PHD2 frantically sends commands to come on back and eventually it comes back down then the guiding resumes. I’ve adjusted worm gears, motor gear backlash, PHD2 algorithms ( settled on PPEC) and feel I’m near the end of tweaking. I’ve experimented with guide exposures. Short exposure work better but with an OAG 1 second is my lower limit and 2 is the upper. So I’m researching for a replacement mount for improved and consistent guiding. Do I go GEM or CEM or go with a Harmonic mount? I have to set up and tear down every session so not having counterweights (I have two 11lb CW on my AVX, my C8 SCT equipped is about 19 to 20 lbs) is appealing. I’m concerned with too short guide exposures needed on harmonic mounts, so I’ve read, and because of the OAG it may be difficult to obtain a guide star. What about mounts with encoders? iOptron has EC versions for their GEM/CEM/HAE/HEM? GEM and CEM models are on sale now. AM5N back ordered probably until early next year. I guess my question is for my equipment what design of mount is best for the most improvement to guiding in your opinion? Thanks. I’m glad you are feeling better.
Since you are already using 1-2 sec exposures with. your current mounts you probably will so no change with a Harmonic mount. But like I said in the video, you would find the exposure that works best for your gear. There are many factors involved like. the camera itself, the FL of main scope, FL of guide scope etc.....
@@fenice319 i meant my guide exposures. My guiding is about 1" and id like to reduce it a bit more. I usually 3ppa in nina to under 10" which should be close enough for my budget gear
Hi Ben. Very informative. Would you consider reviewing the DeepSkyDad motorized flap panel? All of the reviews on YT focus on NINA. I think some folks would love to see hands on use with the ASIAIR. How well does it play and does it offer a decent value? In ZWO’s forums, ZWO said a flat panel is not on their roadmap.
I have a iOptron HAE43EC. It is not as sturdy as the CEM70 I used to have. The weak spot is the base, which when made a bit heavier/sturdier it wo7ld be much better. Furthermore guiding will improve when balancing. Especially when using a tripod. This as when the OTA is on one side of the tripod, it will twist the tripodhead. They are not designed for unbalanced loads. The legs don’t like that. Traditional mounts are always balanced and never twist the tripodhead. Another issue: I use a 15kg setup (TEC140) and the HAE43 on a steel pier which stands on 500kg of concrete. Because the weight is on the outer ends of the scope, I notice movement when the ota is being hit by a little wind. The CEM70 did not have that as its damn sturdy. By the way gears can be designed with near to no backlash (heavy springloaded). I expect that in the future strain wave mounts will be heavier and will be made with even better stain wave motors. Costs will go up though.
Great video ! I wonder if you have any experience or know somebody using the AM5 clones sold at Aliepress under the name of "JUWEI-17 harmonic equatorial mount". Is half of the price, and to be faire I just send back my defective AM3, so.. even ZWO have quality issues.
One is a lot heavier. But I bet the iOptron could be made a lot lighter if they just put thought into it. I can hold the AM5 out with one hand. Not the iOptron for sure but it is a lot older of a head too.
@@Thisandthat-e7m same here ! The AM5N is just the better mount then my EQ6Rpro and yes the head alone of the EQ is MUCH heavier that the AM5N with tripod included 😅
Not exactly a fair visual comparison! First you jerk on the iOptron 45 counter weight bar to display back lash but not so on the AM5N (leverage). Also as a machinist your adjustment on the iOptron is not shall we say properly or well done . My iEQ45Pro loves weight and will take up to its rating weight if you adjust the gearing properly. it then guides at a 0.56 to 0.70” rate on a 1500 to 2000mm Focal length. Yes strain waves are the next step but also have a long way to go. Especially for observatory quality. I have 5 mounts of varying design and capacity! Proper adjustment and in tended use will give good results. Yes a strain wave is in the mix to.
I have run both the iOptron and the Am5 at their max payload. Best guiding on the iOptron is 1.2 while the AM5 lately has been doing sometimes as good as 0.2 with occasional 0.1s. As for the counter weight. I have one for the AM5. Installing it and pushing on it gives absolutely not backlash at all. It still solid as can be.
I love listening to your simple explanations about this highly technical world. a hug from Spain from all your followers. we want more videos!💪
Wow, thank you!
Great video. Your discussion of PEC was a especially germaine and educational. I never thought of trying guide exposures of 3 to 4 seconds but I will certainly try that on my EQ6RPRO
Hey i use those rubber pads religiously also for Astro photography.. i will try the metal .. thanks i always learn something from your videos !! Thank you 🙏🏼
Glad I could help.
Good to see you back, man. Hoping that you got it beat this time around because you’re ‘good people’ as we say.
Got out and took some of my first images last week. I think i did ok, but a lot of learning still. I'm having trouble processing the images. I've learned so much from watching these videos. Thank u so much. It was so much fun, I'm hooked.🤣
Great to hear!
Thank you for the super helpful information!! I 100% agree about testing equipment, it’s the best method for success. I have metal on my redwood deck; it’s old, but tough as a tractor that never quits 💪
After messing with the settings in AsiAir, my am5 can get anywhere from .3-.5 RMS while guiding. Better than what I paid for and it’s compact. Love it
I do AP with the rubber feet (very nice wood floor on my balcony so no spikes...) I get .3 rms sometimes so it is not really relevant but the issue I observed is Polar alignment. The rubber feet are getting squished by the weight of the scope depending where it is pointing at the moment and the PA changes slightly! So if you can - use the spikes!
Ya I would probably choose my wood deck too.
I always assumed that the rubber dampners were used to stop vibrations from people moving around the tripod travelling from the ground up.
@@WilliamBlakers They do that too. That said if you polar align then walk to other side of scope you can see PA move. Another reason I switched to steel spikes and pavement.
The best part of Harmonic Mounts for me is the fact you can get a traditional EQ mount at significant discounts as people upgrade. Great point though on the backlash play and wind shake though.
I have 2 EQ6R Pro mounts and I love them. We can adjust for backlash and not worry that the whole rig will blow over. I love that some folks feel as though they need the newest “thing” because you are right…. The prices for other gear comes down. I’m watching the zwo 2600 cameras do the same thing. The old 2600s are coming down but are just as good for me because I already have guide scopes and the weight is not a problem.
Spot on explination. I've also found that putting the guide scope to 1.5sec works well, where the HEQ5 benefited from a 3sec exposure. I've heard of people dropping it to 0.5sec, but I find with the ASI120mm, there just is not enough exposure. Knowing you also have the ASIAir, I would love to see an expansion on this in regards to aggression optimization and Cal Step etc.
The 120mm is very old now. I still have one through. Use it with my Newtonian and it's a very good match.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel Totally agree and of course watched you other video. Its on the list for upgrading.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel
with the 178mm discontinued, I wonder if the ASI678 would work as an updated alternative - thoughts?
thanks for that great info about both types of mounts
You bet!
now that more strain wave mount options are sturting to pop up I don't see a reason for most amateurs to go with a classic worm drive mount, for similar if not lower prices you get no backlash, incredible performance out of the box, a light mount and huge payloads. I gambled when buying one of the first Umis and I couldn't have done a better choice
True the first Harmonic mounts were a gamble and so over priced. They did not tempt me back then but now they seam a no brainer.
They hit limits on guiding performance when you get to the bigger refractors and >8" scts. Even guided with decent RMS there are examples where star shape suffers due to short but sharp PE. But for smaller scopes and Portability it's a good tradeoff.
Yeah as a few videos by Cuiv showed the weakness in wind for the strain wave mount was the carbon tripod that the am5 came with. Nuggets carbon legs with screw in extensions definitely a big improvement.
I have to say the Ieq45pro looks lovely though almost looks like an astrophysics mount
I am a sucker for a good looking mount too!
@@TheNarrowbandChannel agreed. Hoping to be able to find one to go along with my cem25.
I have a CEM 26 mainly for low weight for travel. I wasn't sold on strainwave a year or so ago. Next mount will be a strainwave of some sort.
This is a good video. There are key concepts here such as if you want a wind-proof strainwave mount, get a heavier tripod and do not care so much about the mount head weight compared to a traditional GEM. I would just point out that the play in the RA axis is non important as an example of backlash since you will never get the RA worm gear to reverse but only speed up or slow down. You may want to see if there is some play in the DEC axis instead.
There is in the Dec.
The latest update from ZWO seems to gotten my two-year-old AM5 consistently well below 1 arc second guiding. I had been guiding consistently under or close to 1", but there seemed to be a definite step change. A few days ago it was chugging along at 0.37" and 1.85-pixel average star size. None of my settings were changed. My impression is that there was still room for improvement in the guiding algorithm. Either that or my seeing has just been exceptional the last few times out.
With the updates I too have seen guiding improve. Was used to .5RMS but now .2 seams to be often achievable.
As much as this guy knows and a lot of good points, I do find it funny that he never shows the images he takes. He is really into the technology, engineering, & HW. Granted most channels seem to go just for the images and gloss over the HW. Though I would like to see the fruits of his labor as well of his appreciation for the engineering.
If you have seen my dancer battle update video I was not really able to image for about 3-4 months. But now getting back into it. That said last few videos do not need images. Would have not point to it too.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel I hope things improve for you. Your channel is very informative and I appreciate your highly analytical approach!
I'd love a strainwave mount to use out in the field but sadly I don't have the budget for one so I still use the traditional equatorial worm drive mounts which do a decent enough job but not as portable. maybe I'll get a second hand one in a few years which I guess will prove how good they are over time
I buy a lot of gear second hand. It is a great way to get good gear.
I have a C8 and I image mostly at 1442mm but sometimes at 2032mm. I’ve been in the hobby almost a year. I have an AVX mount and through research, trial and error error I’ve managed some guiding success with this mount. I’ve seen average RMS be between 0.60” and 0.70” go for as long as half an hour then suddenly to DEC or RA goes to LaLa land, 2.5”. No wind or anything noticeable. PHD2 frantically sends commands to come on back and eventually it comes back down then the guiding resumes. I’ve adjusted worm gears, motor gear backlash, PHD2 algorithms ( settled on PPEC) and feel I’m near the end of tweaking. I’ve experimented with guide exposures. Short exposure work better but with an OAG 1 second is my lower limit and 2 is the upper. So I’m researching for a replacement mount for improved and consistent guiding. Do I go GEM or CEM or go with a Harmonic mount? I have to set up and tear down every session so not having counterweights (I have two 11lb CW on my AVX, my C8 SCT equipped is about 19 to 20 lbs) is appealing. I’m concerned with too short guide exposures needed on harmonic mounts, so I’ve read, and because of the OAG it may be difficult to obtain a guide star. What about mounts with encoders? iOptron has EC versions for their GEM/CEM/HAE/HEM? GEM and CEM models are on sale now. AM5N back ordered probably until early next year. I guess my question is for my equipment what design of mount is best for the most improvement to guiding in your opinion? Thanks. I’m glad you are feeling better.
Since you are already using 1-2 sec exposures with. your current mounts you probably will so no change with a Harmonic mount. But like I said in the video, you would find the exposure that works best for your gear. There are many factors involved like. the camera itself, the FL of main scope, FL of guide scope etc.....
Some sound advice about exposure lengths, let your mount decide for sure. Great video
Thanks!!
I replaced my tripod with the Starfield Pier-1000 (similar to the William Optics version) and noticed greater stability.
Never tried more than 3 sec on my mount (neither of these) will give 3 or 4sec a try ty
sounds like you need to improve the polar alignment?
@@fenice319 i meant my guide exposures. My guiding is about 1" and id like to reduce it a bit more. I usually 3ppa in nina to under 10" which should be close enough for my budget gear
@@jesuschrist2284 I see my bad, if it's not a strain wave mount sure try the longer exposure, mine being strain wave works best at .5s
@@fenice319 no need to show off :)
How many deformation cycles can the deforming ring go through before it fails, ie cracks?
It's in the billions.
Hi Ben. Very informative. Would you consider reviewing the DeepSkyDad motorized flap panel? All of the reviews on YT focus on NINA. I think some folks would love to see hands on use with the ASIAIR. How well does it play and does it offer a decent value? In ZWO’s forums, ZWO said a flat panel is not on their roadmap.
Those are tempting. I have quite a few videos already scheduled but this winter I could.
I have a iOptron HAE43EC. It is not as sturdy as the CEM70 I used to have. The weak spot is the base, which when made a bit heavier/sturdier it wo7ld be much better. Furthermore guiding will improve when balancing. Especially when using a tripod. This as when the OTA is on one side of the tripod, it will twist the tripodhead. They are not designed for unbalanced loads. The legs don’t like that. Traditional mounts are always balanced and never twist the tripodhead. Another issue:
I use a 15kg setup (TEC140) and the HAE43 on a steel pier which stands on 500kg of concrete. Because the weight is on the outer ends of the scope, I notice movement when the ota is being hit by a little wind. The CEM70 did not have that as its damn sturdy. By the way gears can be designed with near to no backlash (heavy springloaded). I expect that in the future strain wave mounts will be heavier and will be made with even better stain wave motors. Costs will go up though.
I get your point but comparing a mount rated for 70lbs vs a mount rated for 45?
The 70lbs for photography is not possible max 40lbs. For the strain wave it’s 43lbs. So I do compare them
The strain waves seem to compete on the weight and size of the mount. I hope one day they will focus on a sturdy design
Wow I didn’t realize that even on the concrete driveway I should be using the spike feet
I will try it once the skies clear again
Great video ! I wonder if you have any experience or know somebody using the AM5 clones sold at Aliepress under the name of "JUWEI-17 harmonic equatorial mount". Is half of the price, and to be faire I just send back my defective AM3, so.. even ZWO have quality issues.
No idea
Another great video ty. But weigh those two mount heads
One is a lot heavier. But I bet the iOptron could be made a lot lighter if they just put thought into it. I can hold the AM5 out with one hand. Not the iOptron for sure but it is a lot older of a head too.
Let’s be honest here, backlash is pretty insignificant on any newer mount, gear or otherwise.
It is? My mount, EQ6-R, a few years old, has a backlash in the RA axis that can be both felt and seen. Backlash like that is surely not insignificant.
It's the nature of the design. Even if it comes brand new with no backlash with a little wear and use backlash will start becoming a thing.
@@Thisandthat-e7m same here ! The AM5N is just the better mount then my EQ6Rpro and yes the head alone of the EQ is MUCH heavier that the AM5N with tripod included 😅
You know Ben, why don't they make Carbon Fiber counterweights.......LOL
Lmao
Hahaha
I got the plastic ones you fill with water.
Interesting
I appreciate how both styles leave a wide open gap in the market for an american to move into the manufacturing game and put them both to shame.
Would be cool.
The key word here is "sympathetic vibrations".
??
Not exactly a fair visual comparison! First you jerk on the iOptron 45 counter weight bar to display back lash but not so on the AM5N (leverage). Also as a machinist your adjustment on the iOptron is not shall we say properly or well done . My iEQ45Pro loves weight and will take up to its rating weight if you adjust the gearing properly. it then guides at a 0.56 to 0.70” rate on a 1500 to 2000mm Focal length. Yes strain waves are the next step but also have a long way to go. Especially for observatory quality. I have 5 mounts of varying design and capacity! Proper adjustment and in tended use will give good results. Yes a strain wave is in the mix to.
I have run both the iOptron and the Am5 at their max payload. Best guiding on the iOptron is 1.2 while the AM5 lately has been doing sometimes as good as 0.2 with occasional 0.1s.
As for the counter weight. I have one for the AM5. Installing it and pushing on it gives absolutely not backlash at all. It still solid as can be.
@@TheNarrowbandChannel wow I have never got as low as .1 or .2 except on a bad pixel. Good to know the potential of a strain wave mount.
First! Hi Ben!!