Aeon Trespass: Odyssey | Shelfside Review
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- Shelfside finishes half of Aeon Trespass: Odyssey, the epic greek mythology boss battler that draws heavily from games like Kingdom Death: Monster, Dark Souls, and Monster Hunter! As a massive 30 pound kickstarter board game with a giant campaign full of adventure, voyaging, and giant boss miniatures, this co-op tabletop experience has players play through 3 campaigns called cycles, each with their own unique themes, rules, mechanics, and enemies! Build your civilization as a city-sized ship called the Argo, and create new technology cards to craft items and weapons to better combat the looming doom of the primordial bosses. With hilariously random occurrences and nonstop dice rolling, this boss battler has absurd battles, further fueled by escalating power levels where everything is at its strongest the closer they are to death! With so many components and an 80 page rulebook, there is SO much gameplay here, maybe even to the detriment of the game with how many different rules and complexities are crammed into this heavy box.
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Table of Contents:
Overview/How to Play: (0:00)
Component Pros: (7:34)
Gameplay Pros: (9:48)
Campaign Pros: (25:37)
Component Issues Montage: (34:26)
Component Cons: (48:26)
Gameplay Cons: (1:00:19)
Gameplay Cons Part 2: (1:22:35)
Campaign Cons: (1:38:17)
Campaign Cons Spoilers: (1:49:40)
Recommender Score: (2:07:30)
Ashton’s Personal Score: (2:19:01)
Daniel’s Personal Score: (2:28:41)
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Links to our other stuff:
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Daniel's Channel: / doyduh2
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All songs from Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
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This just reminds me how many time that ITU said the game "didn't need any updates" during the second ks. I hope they see this.
Tainted Grail at least acknowledged its miss steps in the first game by releasing updated books and modes.
Good news! ITU emailed us saying that people were asking them why there's no fixes after seeing this review, and apparently they're sending updated cards free of charge for backers!
-Daniel
@@Shelfside Woot!!!! Great job 😁👍👏
Unfortunately the big chunk of issues is not with just some cards, they need to revise the rulebook and also fix all the errata in the learn to play and story books. I hope at least new backers get those fixes in the second printing, early backers unfortunately won't be able to get the updated books
@@ShelfsideITU have planned on doing that all along. People just need to read the FAQ carefully.
Best review of this game I've seen so far. Pfew the time that went into this... RESPECT.
I like how you actually play games, then talk about it
A novel concept!!!
If someone asks me why I love Shelfside, I just say this exact simple and 100% accurate statement.
This!!!
All without $7500 and 7 “apology” videos
Quack'ouch!@@BrussLSprouts
Daniel and Ashton, please please hit us with more of these in depth reviews. I know it’s a LOT of work to create 3 hour videos like this, but I watched this several times from beginning to end - all 3 hours through and through. Because it is a) super entertaining and b) super informative content for new game designers like me who are learning from the past mistakes of other designers to help us shape a better game ourselves. The cons from you and NPI re ATO are not harsh at all, but rather very helpful for other game designers to know what to avoid as they build their own mechanics, components, and experience.
Thank you both, the community truly appreciates you and the work you do 🙏🏼
How do we make this the most iconic tabletop review ever? Other RUclipsrs run a lap for a review... Daniel is jacked on caffeine and runs a marathon in slip on Vans with a mic drop
Just in the first 3 minutes you had given a better explaination of the entire game the all the other 45mins videos I have seen.
Amazing breakdown 👏 thank you! (Subscribed)
Amazing review.
You confirmed a lot of concerns I had which led me to not back.
Feels like complexity and swingy random wildness as a substitute for depth. Some people described it as just going along with a cinematic experience where I definitely want my thinking to matter more than random swings.
Very difficult to find anyone actually acknowledging issues with big projects like this though. Either they're too invested in it being good or give up too early to offer a review that people take seriously.
Your hard work on this is super appreciated!
You're not wrong, there's definitely times where it feels like the game is playing itself like a weird tabletop movie and you're just along for the ride, but sometimes it can be super entertaining haha
-Daniel
3 hours for a review?! this is madness.... a good kind of madness
i started playing KDM about a year ago and it just demolished gloomhaven/frosthaven for me so i'm very excited to jump into this when it arrives next year
an insane review boys, almost 3 hours is WILDIN
Shelfside KDM review next? Then Gambler’s Chest?
@@adityam7866id love seeing a Gamblers Chest review. Since i bought it but havent backed it im super interested in hearing their thoughts on that.
KDM is the far superior game imo. While the story and exploration of ATO are excellent, the overall fiddliness actually maked KDM feel elegant by comparison.
Also ATO's crit rules are hot garbage.
@@wtfserpico
Other way round. After ATO, there's just no need for KDM anymore, it's obsolete. My group tried the gambler chest campaign, and everyone rather does more theatre in ATO. GC didn't even update the hunt event table... it's rather sad. But I get it, after investing so much into KDM, it's hard not to stick to it. Selling it has been a bit of a pain.
@@fy8798 if you didnt try arc survivors you are taking a MAJOR L. the Arc survivors is the best expansion of KDM there is.
i cant believe yall made a 3 hour review. time to listen while i paint my KDM minis
I don't know why this comment made me laugh so much
Im literally putting together the phoenix right now
I was going to dip in and out of this review, and I’ve now watched the whole thing in one sitting. Only you and Jenny Nicholson have caused me to do that. Amazing work, subscribed.
"Other Ashton" was great on camera, had some great things to say, and was very fluid with how he talked. I think he would be a great addition to the channel in a more officials capacity if needed!
It's really funny how many people in these comments don't know that's not Ashton LOL! Other Ashton is great!
-Daniel
Can we make this a reoccurring meme/joke?
Whoa Ashton got a new hair cut!
You do THE best reviews in the biz. Clearly stated, thoughtful, insightful, organized, and entertaining. Long? Sure. But no one leaves with any doubts about the games. I think your Frosthaven review is the best review I've ever seen of any game. This continues you're top notch work. We all appreciate the amount of time you must spend putting these together. Keep it up!
One of, if not THE best review of any game I have ever seen. Props on the amount of work you put into this. I love ATO, and have no problem with house ruling to your enjoyment, especially with a game of immense size and scale. Hopeful for some streamlining with Sins of Herakles.
Your story spoiler section was great. As someone who will never play this game, I appreciate hearing so much of the story and your perspective on those pros and cons. The story is much deeper than I expected and your philosophical review was on point.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Holy… the amount of work that went into this must have been insane and it really shows. Great nuanced review as always!
This review is a work of art. Excellent!
Excellent review. I have watched several reviews and gone back and forth, and this one made me realize that this game only works if I do not have other games I love, and I think I would like the exploration but not the constant interruption with fights. I wish I could give you a triple-like.
Fantastic production, and no ranting/digressing. Subscribed!
Absolute unit of a review. Will watch every minute and I love the level of detail at display. You guys know your shit and a review of this depth really should shut everyone up that looks at the score and immediately wants to run to the defense of the game.
I am very interested to see your review on KDM if it is ever happening in future. Your con points like grindy and unfair instant death is far more common in KDM in my opinion. Really enjoyed every second of your review! 10/10!
My dudes!! Almost a 3 hour review video!! Respect!!
Jesus nearly 3 hours....LETS GO!!!
Almost LotR length worthy!!!!
Love the huge review and can't wait to watch all 3 hours of it
Great review thus far, I really appreciate you taking the time to do something this in-depth. Just wanted to chime in that the Labby card that you couldn't figure out when it's shuffled in is added by a BP card! It only happened to me once in c1 so I don't blame you for not seeing it. Also! The centimane glyphs aren't lying, there are just some repeats, but I get how that could be confusing
Those are both good to know! I decided to spoil myself and look into it more, and yeah, turns out the glyph is a duplicate! Seems BGG lead me astray because I was convinced I made the same mistake as another commenter who thought Hidden in Plain sight 0001 said 6471, with the 4 just being a guess from process of elimination from other numbers, and now I know there's duplicate numbers as well.
For the gaze of temenos bp, the text should make it clear that it'll tell you when to add it in, because I have seen people shuffle it in for ambush fights since it isn't mentioned. Again, another interaction where it's hard to tell what's a mistake vs. what the game hasn't told you.
-Daniel
@@Shelfside
The duplicate glyph is probably meant as a hint - if you have a few glyphs, you can actually deduce the whole set of possible glyphs (some of which the game doesn't use) if you figure out the rules. That's puzzle game logic though, and if you don't play games with such puzzles, you probably wouldn't be aware of that, so definitely can't blame you.
It's more like the runic alphabet in videogames like Tunic or Void stranger, following logical rules for their meaning.
You deserve a thumb for keeping me entertained for three hours at work talking about a game I'll never play. Great job!
Thank you for the commitment to make a high quality review. I’m only 15 minutes in…but I suspect no time was wasted in this video.
Huge work! Congrats
Pretty sure the reason there isn't much chatter about the errors is because there isn't much chatter about the game in general. On BGG the threads are all from people who clearly love the game and don't have an issue with small fonts or repeat art, and are too busy asking about rule clarification to complain about broken minis. The other, maybe bigger cause of the "silence" is that this game is sooo big that... what do we think, maybe 20% of the people who own it have actually played it? 🤣
Your critques on the plot were fantastic. you did a great job threading the needle on what makes something male gaze centric, the nuance that could have been done with the depression story and how everyone being evil isnt inherently a deep story.
Super impressed with the amount of detail that went into this.
Awesome review! I can't wait to dive into this behemoth.
wow, i just discovered your channel. You are hilarious and i can't wait to see what else you bring now that i've subscribed!
You hit the nail on the head in regards to the lack of criticism. Somewhat lately I've noticed a worrying trend - a complete lack of critical thinking when it comes to hefty kickstarters. Whereby people are all in emotionally and lose sight of what actually makes a good product, only because they are monetarily heavily invested. I feel there are parallels to be drawn here to video game pre-ordering.
I think there is plenty of balanced coverage, but one needs to seek it out.
Agreed.
The problem with uncritical hype mostly is on the sell-side (project owner, pre campaign reviews). The hype on the buy-side quickly dries up and reverses if the final product is sub-par. The online metrics (bgg rank...) drop fast.
One or two years along the way, it's mostly stable.
What this suggests to me is that Gloom/Frosthaven is low-key pretty brilliant. It preempts a lot of the problems that would make combat less of a team-puzzle. It’s actually very hard to balance variance and player agency! And maybe there is such a thing as too much board game.
The haven combat system and Spirit Island have ruined so many other co-op games for me it's not even funny
-Daniel
I am definitely in the crowd of "fuck it I'm one damage off, good enough" crowd
Even though this was 3 hours, it's been a fun watch. Would love to see a full review for the Kingdom Death Gambler's Chest if you ever get your hands on it
Amazing review, highlighting pros and cons from your view really well. Probably my go-to review to link to explain ATO :D My group absolutely loves it, but it's not for everyone, and this review really does explain why and who it's not for.
Think the boss battler for most people is probably going to be Vagrantsong, really (which is grrreat, glad it's getting an expansion).
Was hoping to hear Deicide when you mentioned it😂. Instant subscribe btw. Love the format and speed
Lord Daniel, you have truly outdone yourself and ascended to near divinity status with this review!
You guys are relentless. I love your videos specifically for the extensive breakdown of mechanics. They help me make an informed decision and overcome fomo. Like this game for example I am very tempted to get a gameplay all in on bgg but now I feel like I am not the audience for this game. Please please do a review for Hexplore it and Sleeping Gods.
I played sleeping gods and although it is a nice game the story is very disconnected, with the entire game being mostly sidequests that don't often tie together. I was hoping for a big overarching narrative type of game but it was not it, which is disappointing because Tainted Grail would have been really good with Sleeping Gods' system
Hexplore it
Loved your deep dive on the story. the number of haha funny jokes you make belies the depth of your critique and the number of hours you poured into playing this game as close to the rules as possible
I’ve played well over 200 hours and this is one of my best board game experiences in my life. But I agree with almost everything in here. This is a game that won’t hit like that for everyone. It’s a massive (which redefines massive) passion project, and it will either resonate or not.
Oh and I got hardly any of that rare special stuff personally.
A lot of the component errors I didn't notice because it was just like playing an old-school super-complicated minis game from back in the 1990s (with way more stuff). All our rulebooks back then had terrible - and often repeated - art, the gutter was too narrow, etc... hell, at least in ATO you GET tokens, I remember back in the day a game would just say "place a token on the card" and you'd have to go find some tiddlywinks or poker chips or bottle caps or whatever.
I remember these days too :).
props to Daniel for such a thorough review
You've done a huge service to the community here, by helping soothe the FOMO of board gamers who need a review to tell them the hype game isn't good so they can feel better about not trying anything.
Agree with most of your criticisms. Still a damn brilliant game. It's not KDM, but it's my #2. Excited to see what they do with Kingdoms Forlorn.
@@winghong3 man, I really like the escalation mechanic. Eventually you learn to escalate without looking at the chart and it can be done quickly. It is really neat to see the boss get stronger and stronger along with your titans.
@@winghong3 i totally understand that the Escalation mechanic feels cumbersome esp. compared to KDM, but consider that the Inverted Combat Paradigm is one of the main features of the game. Because the deck is static in KDM, what you gain by less bookkeeping you lose in terms of the drama of the fight. As the monster loses health, he gets weaker until finally he's only got a few AI cards left, ones that you definitely allowed him to keep, and goes out with a whimper. When the AI deck gets more powerful and isn't the HP meter, shit can get crazy exciting. Not saying i enjoy it more but it was a very deliberate design choice.
Also agree with Adam the escalation process is trivial except for wounding/critically wounding BP IIIs and even that you get the hang of before you're done with Cycle III.
Also, in case everyone missed it, i was being sarcastic with my initial comment. If 90% of the comments to your review are "oh phew i haven't played the game good to know it sucks" you gotta admit the main effect of your efforts is helping the stodgiest gamers stay that way
this is the type of content that keeps me coming back here
The review of reviews finally arrives
this is the review that will end all the reviews!
Really respect the effort!!!
Oathsworn or isofarian guard next, pretty pleeeeeease
*Edit
Just watched the review and am super impressed, this was an amazing review, really appreciated the analysis of gameplay and story, my favourite review of yours.
Also loved the reference to NPI review, huge fan of their work.
Keep it up guys!
ALL THE BOSS BATTLERS!
Would love an Oathsworn review!
That lords of Waterdeep box moves a lot from one place to another...
As the guy that posted the BGG coment, man how wrong i was:)). At that point i just got lucky to not see any of the instakill scenarios and tought players just let themself get thrown into pits on turn 1 or something. Now i know, and agree that there are some combos that are just impossible to counter and are just bad. Dying on turn 1 because hekaton pushed you outside the map is the players fault, and that's what i assumed. Dying on turn 1 because maze eruption is bad design IMO.
Hah, change of heart
Which guy were you? The guy that said F it im playing by my own rules?
@@shortydancer Nah, the gatekeepy guy close to the end
@@duduthedruid1835 ah ok. I haven’t watched the whole video. Just made it to the recommender scores.
Hearing Abyss Walkers is a trigger. Reminds me of Dark Souls 3.
LOVE YOUR CONTENT!!
I can agree with, well basically everything you pointed out. I still had a lot of fun playing this.
This basically confirms my realization after a dozen or so hours with this game: it tries to be two games at once, and I already have games that do those things separately, but better.
7th Continent, Tainted Grail and Sleeping Gods all have much more meaningful exploration. KDM is a better boss battler with more varied fights (randomized AI deck, random board setup, survival actions, much more interesting gear, etc.). Not to mention Oathsworn.
Love the effort put into playing the games before reviewing
Great review. Stopped me from the late pledge until the revised version will be launched.
Really looking to your review of Oathborn)
Thanks for this gigantic review! I played through Cycle I last December/January and had a blast but I agree to all of your criticisms. In the end I skipped some combats and exploration steps because I was really bored with them and just wanted to see how the story ends. I dont know how anyone would want to play the same Cycle more than once so I dont understand hiding important story stuff or cool items behind randomness and lucky dice rolls. I want to play Cycles II and III but I'm dreading getting into the rules again. Also I'm sure I played half of the rules wrong in Cycle I 😂 really hoping for some streamlining in Sins of Herakles. I would really enjoy a similar review for KDM or a comparison of those two.
Two hours and forty four minutes?!?!
I'm in
This review perfectly demonstrates how this game, despite not being bad, is simply too much.
Much respect for having such a long review on a game that wasn’t a 10/10 for you. I often hear board game reviewers justify only doing positive reviews by saying that if you don’t like something you’re not going to “waste” the time to review something negatively when realistically if you care about being a legitimate reviewer you need a mix of positive and negative reviews. Great, long watch.
This, is so important.
Daniel i do the same when learning a boardgame. I go step by step. I 1st read it, then pull out everything and do a play by play. Only way i can get it set to memory.
Ohhh god Ashton should let Daniel do more reviews this is GOOOOOOOLD
Great review. My dat got noticeably better when the farty duck music stopped in the component issue montage
Wow. Now that's a review! Subscriber.
I tried posting this review under the reviews tab of boardgamegeek and it was declined by the "community" for being:
50% spam
30% irrelevant
30% wrong item
30% wrong structure
That says all you need to know about how criticism is curated.
I wondered why this review hadn't made an appearance on BGG
These reviews make me laugh. I love your humor as you go attack on titan on this review!
Wow, so happy I didn't back this one. Thank you for the comprehensive review, especially the convoluted rules. Do you plan to review Tanares Adventures anytime soon? That one I actually backed, but I'm still concerned witch crunchy rules there...
You have jumped to my no#1 trusted review channel in the past year or so.
Talking about aspects of games no one else addresses.
Also,why is this review not listed in the BGG review section?Did the ''liberal'' BGG admins nuke it or something?
Impressive review, and love the entertaining humor you sprinkled in. Def helps keep the audience engaged.
I’m surprised this got a 7/10, same score as TG and TG KoR prototype. You listed way more cons including issues with more mechanisms/gameplay and errors. Seems more egregious than TG’s gameplay and wondered if you’d elaborate on the similar rating just a bit?
HIs score was a 5/10 not a 7/10
Who gave it a 7/10, bc someone in THIS video def did.@@pietroviske
I mean, I had a good time personally so 7/10, but if I'm trying to be critical when evaluating this game, it's got tons of problems you'd have to be aware of, hence the 5/10 recommender score.
-Daniel
I'm really enjoying the game so far but lot of your gripes really ring true. Like needing RNG to get the special titans is a huge drag, I ended up spending like 15 fate in some battles fishing for crits only to come up empty anyway. Also your entire group fishing around in the box looking for that oversized tech card. I'd say its a special game that the right player will really enjoy, but it's hard to call it unambiguously good. Also worth mentioning that if you're into the hobby aspect of miniatures the ones it comes with have very cool designs, and are high quality by pre-assembled board game mini standards.
Wow, this is a long review.
I hope to play this in a few years when my son is older and stronger and can carry the box around for me.
Well done. Thank you
Super entertaining review, it was very enjoyable and made me laugh frequently ^^
My feeling regarding the Dream of Pharos is that they are cryptic premonitions and passages of the future (or maybe just across all times). As the dreams make you visit the Alexandria library, I suspect that dimension holds the entire history of the universe, and at each visit you end up possibly having a glimpse of another time.
I don't recall many of them, but at least 3 that I recall made me think about it. 1) I was facing the possibility that I'd engage in an encounter against a next cycle enemy. 2) I could benefit by playing with the entire AI deck (or was the BP deck) revealed. 3) I recall one mentioned a golden city/people in the lore part which should. bean alusion to C4.
Those situations lead me think that these are premonitions, but I might be wrong, ofc.
Oh wow! Every single one I got so far had something to do with junctioning haha
-Daniel
This depth of Lore is rare in a boardgame. Yes, Pharos are visions, of past and future.
The library of Alexandria is the first casualty in the Zero Point Event which leads to the Eschaton. Destruction of knowledge, then Chaos.
Best review of an epic boardgame I ever watched, period. I know AT:O well, our group even parted with our old KD:M to finance AT:O's follow-ups.
Yet, I find not a thing in your review I would disagree with (or shake my head at).
This, is professionalism.
How often did you used to play KD:M and how far in AT:O are you? Glad Daniel was on the mark for so many players of ATO
Lol. First review I’ve seen if yours. Great job.
We just finished cycle I this week after playing it for almost one year. Yes, it sometimes feel like hard work to keep all the rules together but on other times it is so feeling good when you see your combat plan come to good end. The emotional highs and downs I did not expierienced in a board game ever before. For an example: our special titan would have beendet killed by a brutal attack but my Mnemos ability let me get hit instead. The resulting trauma draw was an immediate death (disembowel). However, du to second chance trait of my armor I was able to redraw and got an awakening as Zeus including a bonus attack which killed the Primordial.
It's always fun reading stories like that! I never had an awakening happen still to this day lol
-Daniel
My copy is coming at the end of the year. Looking forward to the greek hijinks.
This review alone makes me want to start playing ALL THE GAMES! This is from someone that has never really played any board / card / campaign games!
I dont play these genre of games but you have my deepest respect
Have had this one sitting on a shelf while slowly working my way through frost. As the "rules guy" for my table I think it will stay there until I can find a way to get rid of it. I'm so often the knowledge guru for games and this sounds like a personal nightmare to sort in my head and then communicate to others.
Thanks for all the hard work, wondering if you contacted the publisher, or there is already an errata with all the problems you mentioned in the Component Issues montage?
This review is actually more epic than the game itself! 👍👍
In my opinion the first step in a 2.0 version will be to rethink / completely change the unboxing experience. It was horrible, and that's your first impression of the game. From there, I actually really liked the tutorial. After that...well you just need to leave it on your table and try to go through it (at least finish a cycle) in a series of sessions. I couldn't imagine restarting mid cycle after several months of break.
Thank you for helping me to fight my urge to get this game. Especially considering its price point.
Amazing effort on the review. Great stuff. Just a little PSA on the folks who plan to play the game:.For me a lot of the joy of playing this game came from the discovery of the puzzle box of mechanisms this game as to offer. The game does a great job of unveiling this to the player and it‘s a lot of fun to experience. This video basically lays it all out in great detail and it would seem a shame to lose the experience of playing the game blind. I realise people get different enjoyment from these types of games though so your mileage may vary.
Well, sometimes that can a tough ask. Yes, going in blind is cool, but I can also understand why people would want a really detailed and informed review before dropping a couple hundred dollars on a game.
these kicstarter indie games are getting insane lol
Well, subbed. Well done.
Great review!!
I love the idea of the game though and I wonder if any/many of these issues will be addressed with the 2nd printing KS.
There is also the narration and app update due - any help there?.
Amazing review. Quick Question: Why is lords of waterdeep behind you in every angle?
It was being moved around a bunch between our houses and happened to be there by coincidence lol
-Daniel
Respect for that indepth view, I would have even watched the snyder cut of the component section (though this one was art). It feels like they wanted to make 2 games without making a good foundation for either (story vs boss battler). I was never interested in it as I am still oversaterated from greek myths. first i thought, if they bring a nordic version in the future, maybe. but now i am not so sure if it will just the same system.
well deserved break now, though hoping oathsworn might be next (already played 4 chapters and fun so far).
(or just maybe even isofarian guard. havent played yet but still already sure i will have a blast with it)
What a seriously impressive review! My mate has been trying to convince me to play his copy and this review has made his job even harder. Honestly, I don't have the time or the will to go through the rigmarole of learning the rules and all the modifiers. Not when I have a few hundred other games I'd really like to try. It's definitely an impressive product but the competition from other games is just too strong.
ATO is more like getting into Warhammer. It is a hobby unto itself, but so is KDM really.
I would love to see you do a similar review for Kingdom Death Monster, and Gamblers Chest.
3 hour review that's better paced than AT:O
Your TLDR and explanation afterward are almost 1:1 for how I feel about the game. After my group didn't want to continue after the first few days of Act 2 I set it aside with plans to return some time in the future. The Gambler's Chest showing up and being absolutely AMAZING has dampened my desire to return to ATO even further, and I still haven't even jumped in to my fresh copy of Oathsworn, so on the shelf ATO will sit for who knows how long.
Crikey mate what a review
Small feedback! Please, always talk whatever you want to convey! I love the harsh feedback you've imposed but just having yellow text passing by so fast is a bit annoying. If you talked about it it would have been amazing. Anyway, great video as always.Talking instead of just having text is also great for people who want to enjoy the video again as some sort of podcast. I usually watch it on weekends and just listen to reviews while I'm working so this would be of great help, personally speaking.
Anyway, you guys have become my favorite reviewers, no holding back and that's exactly what we and the industry need in order to improve! Tyvm and please keep the good work while having fun!
I apparently have PTSD because as soon as the "Booster Box Game" music came on at 42:08 I got chills
Deep review. Honest and funny
I trust shelfside a lot and almost got convinced to refund my future all-in but I will keep it and see what sins of Heracles brings to the table. It is really good to see different opinions and backed with so much profound insight.
I think it's important to grab different point of views, and absolutely note the pros and cons, specially the ones that are repeated over and over, such as extreme complexity (it is), crazy ass awesome story (it is), or desire to skip battle (yes, it happens but I feel it is less about the batlte itself but more bc the adventure phase is so hooking and you want to get back to those discoveries).
That said, keep in mind that lots of ppl have dramatic different experiences with similar games. In this review, for instance, Frosthaven is sometimes raised as a example to be followed in comparison for mechanics, how the FH characters are more unique than titans and, etc. I myself own both games, and I am playing a campaign of FH with my wife while playing ATO solo. Yet, the headspace that ATO occupies, the amount of times in the day that ATO stories come to my mind, that I replay some story snippets on my mind thinking about what I know about this world, that I feel like I want to get progress is and unveil more of those conflicts are INFINITELY more than with Frosthaven. I have both games quickly ready for play. I don't think about FH, we play maybe once scenario a week and it's enjoyable, it goes to it's drawer and that's it. When I start playing ATO I feel like I can't stop... I want to do one more story, I want to play one more battle, I want to plan the next gear and unlocks. When I drop the game... that's still what is on my mind for days. I strategize if I should return to the table doing 1 or 2 Mnesis Theater or back to the cycle campaign. When I hold on playing for a month... I'm still looking forward to opportunities to come back.
I feel like beyond any pros & cons that ever been mentioned, no single review I've watched captured or addressed this "addiction" that the game can have to certain players. Not as a pro bullet point which is super relevant IMO. The closest thing on the content creation space to this feeling that I've seen was Tom Vasel insisting into playing the game solo beyond the initial group review and reporting his progress as a small series on the Dice Tower. You could follow his struggles, how much story retention he had from his session, his excitement of moment of random positive luck, because they are there and they are really really enjoyable. Yes, you can crit an enemy early in the campaign, get a cool item and feel like the most powerful thing of this universe. Both really bad moments and really good moments could be the fuel that will make one dream about the game. It's unfortunate that he had side-issues with his campaign book keeping.
@@JohnHoliverthank you very much for such an elaborated response, hopefully I will experience it as you. Did not play yet frosthaven but gloomhaven and crimson scales stories are hot garbage and imo story is important
If you think story is the most important and can look past/house rule all the issues, I cannot recommend ATO enough. I like Frosthaven's story a lot, but ATO just has so much ridiculous spectacle happening constantly!
-Daniel
@@Shelfside Is Frosthaven's story better than Gloomhaven's that was really bad?Did you play the unofficial "Crimson Scales" expansion?
@@mel_from_hell I didn't play crimson scales, but I will say Frosthaven's story is wayyyy better than Gloomhaven's! I was even playing differently and not just min-maxing constantly for fun story reasons like trying to help a certain townsfolk upgrade their building or not killing a boss mid scenario when it tries to talk you down.
-Daniel