I appreciate the way that this video discussion is framed in that these aren’t bad games; they’re just not good games for you. Too often I see reviewers bashing a game as being poorly designed when it’s just not designed to their tastes. For example, you clearly like interaction in your games, while I’m much happier with a multiplayer solitaire euros :) Every person has their own preferences for what makes a game good. I really like Wingspan but have no interest in TI4. And that’s ok! Live and let game!
yeah, if one watched all the related videos, it figures. I can only say so far - I finished JotL and had a blast. (We play Oathsworn till we get GH 2nd)
@@NRGYi respect your opinion even if it's wrong :3 i have not seen any game even remotely close from SI as the best game. i can say I dont mind owning only it, and losing every single other bgame in the world.
Man that clip at 15:00 is everything I love about games. That looks like the perfect game night to me 😂😂 Probably why i love Im the boss and Chinatown.
I think my approach to this list need to be more like: top 10 recommendations. Spirit Island, Root, Jaws of the lion, Eclipse, Sidereal Confluence... all of these so enjoyable for me, I might as well try the rest
I wasn't excited about Wingspan at first, but there is something about this game which makes me play it again and again. Also, Wyrmspan would be interesting to try I guess.
For me, the top of my list is Diplomacy. It's tough to play with friends due to the trust issues and backstabby gameplay. It's also tough to play with strangers because nobody is invested enough to see it play out. The half dozen times I've played, it was always a series of complicated turns and feel-bad moments that led to unfinished games.
You've clearly never played Diplomacy. I have, over many years with a variety of both friends and strangers. Give the game a try yourself and see what happens. @@azoniarnl3362
I love diplomacy. The online comunity (in my experience) is broadly the kind of people who will complement you on a good stab and are much less tilt prone than people who enjoy games that don't require so much negotiation, trust, etc My main problem is how much time it takes. I don't want to sit down and message multiple people over a board game daily. Especially when some games take the better part of a month to resolve even with daily turns. Then the time you have to spend analyzing diplomacy and the board for each game you're in 😴 I got burnt out and I think I'll probably go elsewhere for longterm strategic content. Even though the stalemate line and draws give a lot of depth to playing when behind which I absolutely love.
What a great video idea. We need more varied content like this in the board game industry. I'd also like to see more designer talk about mechanics if we can figure out how to do that in an interesting way.
"But, But, But... If you bash so many games in 15 minutes, the publishers won't love you anymore - and how do you get free copies and mentions anymore?" (think that's what many content creators think)
there is def. too much praising in bg industry or lets say not enough objective opinions on good and bad things about bgs. often i read posts on how good this new game is and 1 month later no one is talking about. glad there are a few people speaking their mind.
@@RaveKev It takes a lot of time and effort to create content about board games, so most content creators don't bother creating content about games they don't like. They barely have time to make videos about the games they like, they probably use the rest of their time to live a little. You can fault them for that, now can you!?
Good video. Not liking a game is fine if you explain what is good and bad. You do a good job of this and in fact a much better job of it then some people. I like a lot (in fact mostly) of games that others can not stand. So I'm right there with you. Looking forward to a Last Light review from you and Daniel.
"Not liking a game is fine if you explain..." No it isn't, nobody owes you an explanation for why they do or don't like something. Most games are just shit.
The Spirit Island one burns the most for me. With that low an opinion, nothing would likely change it but my guess is that you'd probably like it more with Events and Adversaries. They make the board state changes a lot more interesting.
Precisely! The base game was fun at start, but it overstayed its welcome reasonably fast. Getting Branch and Claw elevated it to be one of my all-time favourites simply because of the events messing up the predictability enough. Jagged Earth also adds the events so that's a valid, bigger, alternative.
Yeah, honestly the rulebook does the game a disservice by framing adversaries as an advanced option. Adversaries should be explained as the default with a suggestion that if the game is too difficult, you may choose to play without an adversary while learning the basics.
I agree with basically all of this, except with a caveat/suggestion for Spirit Island. I think the thing that makes Spirit Island sing for me is when you start increasing the difficulty. You go from a simple whack-a-mole style to having to actually combo spirit powers, gather and push colonists into safe/bad zones, and really actually have pay offs for the ridiculous things your spirits can do but don't really ever *have* to do in the base difficulty. You don't even need to go to a crazy high difficulty level, just a couple bumps up from the base and the whole game changes. In the base game, I would find that we often win quickly and kind of "Oh, if we just kill this city here we win" style. Or, I'd be able to do 20 damage to an area that only had ~8-9 health worth of colonists there. But as you ramp the difficulty, you start needing to plan better, communicate with your team your capabilities, and overall, it just gets to be an amazing co-op experience that rewards you for skillful play and learning your spirit better over time.
There's a dynamic I've experienced in every hobby I've seen: - You dip your toes and get hooked - You feed the addiction a bit more, it's a high - You overcompensate your appreciation of the hobby making it a huge part of your identity - This is not sustainable and you dial it back a little bit - You actually find a stable enjoyment to commitment ratio and struggle to go back to your previous ways I first noticed it with craft beer where I brewed my own beer and eventually stopped entirely fiending for the most gaudy & exclusive craft brews I could buy. I'm now seeing it again with board games where the 1-2 hour game is infinitely more appealing than the 4 hour fever dream. I struggle to even believe me & my homies gathered to play TI3 5 weeks in a row once. I feel like almost all the games on the list fit in that bucket, wngspan being the big exception. And man, a solid 3rd of that list is in my collection atm so I feel ya. Right now I've been buying a lot of new stuff which makes revisiting games pretty rare for me. But when you bring back out a Rising Sun or FCM, you feel some different type of way about them just on the time & complexity & table space creep alone.
Funnily enough, I tend to like games that turn into hot mess (Experience driven over tactical considerations, chaotic, etc). Sidereal confluence as a result exists in a really weird spot where I could probably enjoy that game, a lot. But I also fear that it's "too much" and would experience it once or twice and then just never consider it again when picking a game for the day.
@@HeyImBode I suppose the hype does die down. Also I imagine that was a while ago and eventually life takes over. I think every board gamer dreams of having a group that'll spend 10 hours a week playing anything in their collection though. It's so interesting, the mind of a boardgamer.
You literally read my mind, in short for me these 3 things have to be spot on to enjoy the game : 1. A great board game has to run fluently with little player downtime, keeping everyone engaged instead of having players fall asleep till their turn comes again! 2. The Rules have to be straightforward and keep the same logic throughout the entire game, not be confusing and keep changing the logic! 3. Scoring combats, outcomes, and following flow charts need to be straightforward not tedious and complex as if I am doing a complex math test, nothing worse than when at the end of the game I feel exhausted and get a migraine from all that tediousness!I am there with you with all of them, particularly Roots , Gloomheaven, Eclipse, and GOT!
Describing Spirit Island as "whack-a-mole" is straight up wrong. Like, it's understandable if the game didn't resonate with you, but that isn't why. The enemy AI has multiple tiered incentives, you can weather short term losses to mitigate long term damage. Like... it's whack-a-mole, if you were told where the moles would pop up a minute in advance, had a wealth of tools to manipulate the behavior of the moles beforehand, and were also not even obliged to whack the moles. You failed to perceive the strategy space of the game on even a fundamental level.
Interesting to hear you say that you’d probably rather just play D&D than play the rpg-esque Oath. That’s a very helpful comment, and highlights a neglected area for board game reviewers: what board game adjacent activities do y’all also do (rpgs, poker, other card games, phone apps, certain video games) that might influence your personal enjoyment of specific board games. Sometimes it feels like board game reviewers steer clear of acknowledging interests outside of just board games, when of course anyone will have varied interests that would deepen the understanding of their audience
What?! You'll never play (insert viewer's favorite here) again? I don't know why I even watch this channel. I love (insert viewer's favorite here)! You don't understand the mechanics at all, YOU' MUST BE PLAYING IT WRONG!!! Most of these I've never played except for Eclipse and Wingspan. Eclipse, I will agree to disagree with you on. Wingspan on the other hand, after playing Earth recently, I think it might be time to tear down the bird blind. Great video! Look forward to your next one. Keep up the good work.
Interesting list. I just recently played wingspan and my initial evaluation was very similar. I always felt like I'd prefer to play Oceans indtead, which has a ton more interactivity but has a similar feel. About Spirit Island (my favorite game), it seems you've played without tokens and without events? As far as I'm concerned, the game totally needs those to open up and live. It's oozing with theme from every mechanic and rule I encounter, which keeps me coming back to it and just immersing myself in the island. I could instantly start a new round after finishing a game. Just a suggestion, because I felt like the game was missing something before adding Branch & Claw and only after that did the island really come to life for me. ^^
You're correct on SI, I played without tokens and without events! I think our friend group just didn't want to play with those mechanics for us, and from how it was described by Daniel (who by the way loves SI and loves these additions), I don't think it would change my enjoyment much. Cheers and happy new years! -Ashton
@@Shelfside You basically only played the first tutorial and then reviewed the game... The tutorial intentionally feels basic and whack-a-moley so it can teach the core mechanics before introducing complexity.
My favorite board game right now, if you can even call it that since is far more card focused, is the Red Dragon Inn. Seriously I'm kind of addicted to the simple mayhem of the game. The theme is so strong, games doesn't end super quickly but don't drag on forever either, and the core game play is both somehow incredibly easy to understand even on a first playthrough but also complex enough to reward careful planning.
I love Spirit island and Root, and Eclipse is my favorite board game of all time. It's cool that despite having such wildly different tastes I still respect your opinions. I guess you're just chill with it, goated with the sauce or whatever.
For Sidereal - my first game was 4+ hours. I introduced the official variant of using a 10 minute timer for each trading phase. The game now only takes 2 hours. I highly recommend the timer if the time is the main issue. It also does not feel that restrictive at all to do so. Also looks like you had way too many people in your game from that video. Also none of my friends shout in the game so I imagine that is really dependent on group dynamics haha. There will be people who slide into someone's negotiations and steals a deal but that is more fun to me haha. I always play 5 or 6 players and that has been perfect for me (I think 5 is the sweet spot because you are not having too much information from other people but the trading is still dynamic and rich and I also assume that is another reason for less shouting haha)
Yeah it's a bit odd, it's like at lower player counts there's not enough trading so Daniel wants more people, but at higher player counts there's too many people and it's overwhelming. I just don't think its for me :) -Ashton
I love Argent and have largely the same complaints about it- my opinion though is that these issues are far more pronounced at larger player counts. With six people, who ends up on a good spot is wholly random, whereas at 3 it's very controllable. I would never play with more than 4 again, and honestly I only really lean towards it if we have exactly 3.
Only going to comment on games I've actually played. Lords of Waterdeep - Yawn. Wingspan - SUPER boring and way over hyped. Root is just so complicated for how basic it is, if that makes any sense? FCM - Only con is that it really takes up too much space, and finding people to play it. Also feel like if everyone has some plays it makes the game much better. Spirit Island is a gem , you shut your mouth :D Great video, I prefer more "negative" videos cause it gives me a more realistic review. If I can see past why some people might not like a game I can more easily tell if its a game is for me.
We need more of this! There are too many reviews that give games the benefit of the doubt, and downplay annoying play experiences. People want to be positive about things! I've been wanting to get Wingspan, but have been worried about the exact things you speak of - so you saved me $60. TY. I too tried Root online, and it was a bust for me. I thought maybe because it was a just solo experience, but I also thought maybe I just suck - so many gametubers love it!. In the end, I think I didn't jive with the mechanics of the game.
I love Sidereal Confluence! My friends always wish there were 1 or 2 more rounds to buy some of the more expensive techs. Totally agree on the chaos on the table and how exhausting it can be tho.
Im sure I could also make a top ten list like this if I look on bgg. Everyone's got games that they just don't enjoy, despite everyone else in the game group loving it. One that comes to mind for me is Castles of Burgundy. That game just feels like I'm not doing what I want to do, but just what the dice decide I should do. You can only get so many workers, and you only get to be first for so long during a game, so a lot of castles is not rolling the numbers you wanted, and then having to do something else that you didnt want to do instead.
Your comments about Gloomhaven were interesting. For my group and I the reason we love Gloomhaven so much is because of the actual strategic gameplay, too many narrative rpg games simplify the actual gameplay to rolling dice and at that point i'd rather just read a book. It's important for us to know that win or lose its because we made good or bad decisions. We wouldn't spend £100+ on a game for the "simple thrill". It is a massive game though, and i'm sure by the time we finish the entire campaign we'll never touch another game in the series again.
Spirit Island is my favorite game of all time. I need to remind myself that he's reviewing the CORE game, which is understandably very algorithmic and boring. Spirit Island shines as you add (all of the) expansions, which drastically add to the depth and flavor of the game. You also need to start increasing the difficulty to really appreciate and discover the strategic depth and discover combos between spirits and powers. I feel like this reviewer barely scratched the surface of what Spirit Island has to offer, and understandably so, as they can only invest so much time into each game. But unfortunately, that results in a review which is only skin-deep, and thus a distortion of what the game can truly be.
Sidereal is prob our groups favorite heavyish game for 6 players. It's such a hard player count to do right, and I think the game nails it. It does REQUIRE all players to be into the trading aspect though. Above 6 and it prob gets a bit *to* chaotic, and hard for people to keep track of stuff though. Also I think it's funny that what I think is the BEST aspect of Eclipse(the ship building) is your least favorite.
I agree, I didn't played most of these games but for example Root, I just can't, this game has such a steeping curve for me and my friends, the friends who have it they understand it and they make a play in 20 seconds then others turn comes around and they feel completely lost with what they can do, who is winning now and etc.
I love all the games that I've played that you mentioned. Root is my favorite of all time. But I do have my share of unpopular opinions. I don't care for Terraforming Mars, Ark Nova, and Space Base.
Unintuitive is a very good description for Rising Sun. And it's definitely not an area of control game. Buuuut when you grasp what you're supposed to do, I find elegant it's simplicity and how you can plan things ahead easily.
TI4 is on my list. Which is weird cause I am big on 4X, Scifi, Diplomacy, etc. All elements are there in Twillight, but somehow every game that I had with it, I had no fun. I prefer Eclipse!
Absolutely LOVE Eclipse. It's an amazing game that gets even better when you start playing with the non-human factions. It may feel battle heavy but we've had a player win while never initiating combat. Spirit Island I'm totally on the same boat with you. Me and my wife have played it three times, gotten totally stomped each time, and don't really plan on playing it again. Root I've only played once but loved it and am looking forward to more games of it!
Eclipse is also pretty fast from what we saw to our surprise. Suggested 25 mins per player might be a bit too far fetched BUT three player game lasted 1 hour 30 mins. There is also something else I noticed quite recently while playing Terraforming Mars: realization you don't even know when these 3 hours passed.
Great video and I of course, respect your opinions. It is hard for me to imagine Spirit Island on this list though. I understand that everything is not for everyone but I have put like 100+ hours into that game and can't wait to do more lol.
For sidereal confluence, At 5 players our games normally take under 2 hours. It’s pretty much my favorite game and we have a group that’s played pretty much weekly for a year and a half. I do recognize that it’s not a game for everyone, but it seems to me that something was explained incorrectly somewhere as my experience playing this game never turn into just shouting deals. It is a game that has very little downtime and requires a lot of quick thinking, so I can certainly understand wanting to have more non game based interaction with your friends.
Great video! My thoughts on each: 10) Haven't played it. Just sounds painful. 9) Completely agree, but never knew exactly how to vocalize it. The hand management just doesn't engage me. 8) Haven't played it. Always seemed to fiddley. Might check out the online though. 7) I love the idea of this game, and I own it. Too bad I can't get the same group to play it multiple times with me. 6) I used to love this game. Played it recently and just found it to be a chore. 5) Love this game. Play it digitally everyday. I own a physically copy, but can never get it to the table. Too hard to teach. 4) Never played, but find myself agreeing with you. Way too much going on. 3) Hated Blood Rage so much that I haven't even looked at the other games. 2) Completely agree. Too long for how little interaction there is. Engine isn't satisfying. 1) Lol, I love this game. Problem is, most my friends agree with you so I hardly get to play it. Definitely not for everyone
OMG, I audibly said "WHAT!!" after hearing #1. I JUST received Sidereal Confuence and have planned a day to play it and I'm EXCITED! The idea is to stick a time limit on each trading phase to keep things going. I also don't agree with FCM but that's becasue I enjoy the zero RNG, no holds barred style. I get that it's not for everyone though. The rest I can't really say much on, I just enjoy Gloomhaven for what it is. Awesome video!
Hahaha, thought people would be very mixed on Sidereal. It's a really good game, but just definitely not for me. Even with the time limit for trading it's not working for me -Ashton
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I played Siderial twice with 2 different groups. With a time limit (i think 15 minutes per trade - whatever is in rules). It was great both times. Everyone loved it. Second play was on a group week-long get-togeher and they wanted to play it one more time right after the first game. Its the kind of game, where i will most likely remember every game i play for a long time. Similar to my games of Cosmic encounter and (original reprint of) Dune and War of the ring. I love when game is goofy, social, roleplay-ish and still an actual game. I win most games i play, im super competetive and its super hard for me to enjoy game for the game and experience. Thats why im always happy to find a game that is just pure fun and chaos :) Btw make sure to read all siderial conf. player boards for all races in addition to rules and how to learn the game sheet. It makes the experience for everyone else much smoother.
Yeah, I couldn't enjoy Rising Sun either. I tried so hard to like it but it just wasn't for me. Wingspan also isn't for me, my wife loves it but I'm just bored 80% of the time. Oddly enough, one of my favorites is Mystic Vale which is complete solitaire. However, I totally can see why people love Wingspan, and I originally did love it my first 10 games or so.
Lol, while Root Digital is a great way to knock out plays for experienced players, I think it might be the worst possible way to try and learn the game. The quickness works against it, and leaves new players such as Shelfside feeling completely clueless as to how anyone is doing anything and how they should act with their own faction to counter. It doesn't help that the "faction boards" for Root Digital leave off a rule or two, so you might not even know a thing exists in the game. We also might be diametrically opposed as 2 of my top 3 are on this list 🤷. Also, I completely respect your right to like or dislike things as you see fit.
I think all gamer's should create a list like this, and use it to edit their collections so they can better focus their time on titles they truly find enjoyable. Regarding Oath, I admire what Cole created (and in large part his efforts succeeded) but had to navigate a not insignificant amount of frustration as I felt the rules and various player roles took me along for an unguided ride rather than leave my sense of agency intact. I instinctively know there is an excellent game there if only I can commit the time to deciphering all the subtleties of the design- which is really hard to do when there are so many other games that have a much lower entry barrier to a great experience. I am really, really hoping I don't have the same feelings about the upcoming sci-fi pseudo epic Arcs...
I was just about to say that the Sidereal Confluence gameplay footage reminded me of the frenetic mayhem you see on the stock exchange floor, and then you took the words right outta my mouth, lol. I keep telling myself I'm going to try Wingspan to see what the fuss is about, but every time I pick up the box or see it on sale on Steam I realize the bird theme does nothing for me, and then I pass on it.
Great content! Thanks to this expert analysis we can better direct our resources to the best games and avoid those that are less rewar-ahhh who am i kidding im gonna buy all these anyway such is life when your addicted to cardboard (" -.-)
Great video that shows that you need to figure out your preferred mechanics and not just go "Hey it's number xyz on BGG therefore I must like it". Case in point for me is actually TI4. That would be my number 1 on this list :)
I agree to most of what you said about the mentioned games. "Gloomhaven"/"Frosthaven" and "Wingspan" are ridiculously overrated anyways. "Root" and in parts "Oath" are broken. "Rising Sun" feels also dysfunctional and very unenjoyable. "Sidereal Confluence" is crazy. "Argent Consortium" desperately needs streamlining. "Food Chain Magnate" is unique but utterly unenjoyable for most players. "Spirit Island" is an amazing design, but I just don't like to play it most of the time. Even with variations from the nation boards, the invaders do more or less the same every game. The one where I don't agree with you is "Lords of Waterdeep".
The whack-a-mole feeling with Spirit Island I'm sorry to say just boils down to a skill issue. That isn't to say it's an invalid opinion because ultimately if a game requires you to get over a skill hump, that can be a problem for many. But once you get over that, there is a satisfying arc to the power you acquire that lets you turn the tide in a very addicting way. I've played with people who become downright giddy over the turn they have constructed for themselves and can't wait to have people watch the destruction they get to rain down on invaders, a feeling that very few games provide.
It's a playing on too low a difficulty issue. At difficulty 0, it lets you get away with whack-a-mole strategies even if it's a horribly inefficient way to play. Try that against a high level adversary and you'll get crushed, there are simply too many threats. It's fundamentally a game of triage, deciding which threats you have to take care of now, which threats you can stop but might be too costly, and which ones you can't address yet. If you take away that decision by playing on a low enough difficulty that you can handle every threat, you're not playing the same game.
@@Oneiroclast I think it's both. I've played the game with ppl who have the same issue and they never get good enough at the game to want to increase the difficulty. At level 0 without any adversaries, there is no feeling of whack-a-mole because good players have the entire board under control in 3 turns or less.
Man, I feel the same for OATH, its like... Its supposed to be super fun and narrative, and I feel digging the rulebook, the internet, the BGG, the Leder Games page, to just make my FIRST action of my turn. :-(
I love Cole Wehrle's games (I love Root and Pax Pamir!), but I still haven't been able to get this on the table... I'm pretty ok with complex games (such as Lacerda games), but I can't just wrap my brain around Oath's rules. All the term seems super strange and unintuitive. Maybe I should just force myself to play the practice game and maybe then it would make more sense.
Sidereal?! Have a timer on trade rounds and if you don’t like loud don’t play with more than 5. Boom fixed. Shortens the game and lowers the intensity to a consumable level. Love that game.
100% agreed on all, except root. Problem with root is that the vagabond should have been an expansion. If they put moles or corvid in the base game box instead, the games would have way more appeal to a broader audience.
Ironically that's when Vagabond has a massive expansion rolling just around them. Also the problem with Root is that you can't play some of the expansion factions in 1 vs 1 as they have too small "balance pool" (lizards and aforementioned corvids) which you could ignore BUT they just don't work in two player games. Unless you put an automaton into the game but then it feels like a bother to simulate the third player too.
This was a great inspiration for my newest video. Thanks for the great video, and the great Idea. My list is going to be way more different from yours, so this is interesting.
I totally agree with the GoT game. It's a really cool game, but would I rather play it over TI4? No. TI4 is amazing. I feel like Gloomhaven is a once-through and maybe a twice-through if you really love it. I really feel the same way about Rising Sun. It's a cool game and I really like it, but would I rather play that over blood rage? I definitely disagree on Root though. Root is my absolute favorite game.
I agree with 60% of this list....we're of a mind. I do like Root, in-person with friends - Not the tournament crowd. I also love the GoT boardgame but it's completely impractical for me to ever play it at this stage in life (father of 4 little ones). Sidereal Confluence was fun for me. Food Chain remains a personal favorite. Agree on the rest though
Crazy spirit island was on this list. There are some valid criticisms I can see, but whack-a-mole doesn’t really even make sense to me as one. With dahan and buildings and the various spirit mechanics- some spirits forbid you from whacking anything altogether. It’s like saying chess is whack-a-mole with all the pawns coming at you. Agree with all your other picks though, except I think Root’s digital version streamlines overhead to such a huge degree that it exempts it. You should definitely try it out if you haven’t, I’ll probably never play the physical again because of it.
I actually agree with you on everything except Lords of Waterdeep. Lords of Waterdeep is one of the best introductory worker placements with some cool flavor text and theme, I would play that anytime and really like the app as well.
I agree! The only issue is that it is not as thematic, I don't feel the theme and those cubes as adventurers ... it really becomes about collecting color cubes to pay the needed amount to hand in the card and score, you could easily turn the game into a restaurant theme and red cubes could be meat, purple fruit, white bread and so on it would still feel and play the same!
I couldn't agree more on Spirit Island. I appreciate how innovative this game is in both theme and design. But at the end of the day, it feels mind-numbingly repetitive and the best ideas just seem to fall flat in terms of execution.
Wingspan is great as the game that is almost universally known. No teaching, no rules checks, almost no set-up time and a quick painless clean up...there are situations where it can be the perfect thing to bring to the table. When you want a thoughtful immersive gaming session, not so much. Spirit Island is tough because so much of it is clever and interesting but then it bogs down with the brain numbing tedium of the battle resolution. I absolutely love playing it for about 30 minutes and then I've had enough.
Wingspan though is really boring for gamers that like interaction. That applies obviously to all multiplayer solitaire (your castles, terraforming, etc). On the other hand i love very high levels of interactions like negotiation games, but it's an unpopular genre and it is hard to table those games. Different strokes for different folks.
Wow I agree with and have given away every game on this list (excluding 1 and 4 because I’ve never played either) besides Rising sun because I just love it too much. I have over 20 games of eclipse down (because my group loves it) and I can’t handle another play through. After playing and trying to force myself to like spirit island many times, I feel like it is way overrated and repetitive.
I completely understand why people find Sidereal too exhausting. It the most interactive and most unique game I have ever played. And that's why it has a spot in my top 10 games of all time.
I am seven months late with this comment, but I also never want to play Gloomhaven ever again. I got into a campaign when the game originally came out and when I first started playing it I thought the game was absolutely absolutely amazing. And then it slowly started to grate upon me, the game was way to fiddly, the mechanics of the game and the combat started to really get on my nerves. I stuck around and finished the campaign, but I never been more happier for a campaign to come to an end. I've had many people tell me that some of the apps that are out there to keep track of a lot of what's happening in the game fixes a lot of the fiddly and housekeeping issues, but I still don't want to play it ever again.
Inlefit thought Unbala... Unmatched would be on this list. So I guess you'd still be willing to play it despite torturing yourself for a month on its digital edition.
Great first video of yours that I have seen. Really like your take on the games and how you describe your feel. I hear rave reviews on Gloom/Frost Haven and watching the plays... I just don't like it. You perfectly summed up my view after watching it played. Subbed! Looking forward to more of your content.
I agree with spirit island and also wingspan which is pretty to look at, and kinda mediocre to play. Idk much about the others except root, I enjoy bit mostly play solo with the bots
With regards to Gloomhaven. When you first discover it your mind goes wild. This sounds as close to perfect as can be. And so you dive in headfirst. And you play and play and play and play. And between having played Jaws of the lion complete and about 1.5 campaigns of Gloomhaven that amounts to roughly 100 times that I played this game. Even the games that I played as a kid don't add up to that many times played. So when I say "I'm done playing Gloomhaven" it is not exactly a negative per se. It just means that I've played SO much of it that I had enough. With some years behind I might put it on the table again but for now it is just enough. Oath super heavily depends on your playgroup. I found that the key to Oath is that everyone on the table is willing to tell a story together. Role-play your faction and see what happens. Winning and losing and even actually "playing" become less important than looking into a fantasy world that is evolving play by play. BUT surprise surprise that is not what most people expect or even want when they play a game. So not connecting with Oath is rather the norm and not the exception. And lastly Root for me has worked by culling it down. At first I wanted to get every expansion, every extension. More variety. MORE MORE MORE. But that actually took away from the game. The OG factions are perfect for me and the river folk are the only extension I need for a bit of variety. Add in hirelings to THOSE (and only those) factions and the clockworks for different player counts and you can get a pretty reliable experience out of the game. The specific factions that do it for you might differ. Each group might have a different set that they prefer. And admittedly it is expensive to get everything, figure that out and then get rid of the rest. But imo it is worth it.
Wingspan has a new game now with a dragon theme (Wyrmspan). Still pretty similar, tho with added mechanics. Kind of feels a bit more like a race towards some objectives and guild stuff, so a little more interactive with other players in that regard.
Agree with Spirit Island--Alex Radcliffe said it well in his review, that there is no climax, tension, or drama. The game just ends, feels the same whether you win or lose, and you often see the win or lose coming from many turns away. It's more of a puzzle than a game. Also, all of Cole Wehrle's games (Vast, Root, Oath, etc.) are huge disappointments for me. While all very cool in uniqueness of concepts, art, and mechanics, really just fail to deliver on the enjoyment/emotion promised by their grandiose uniqueness. The designs are self-indulgent: mechanisms created around unique ideas for the purpose of making the game unique, not making the game fun. Suffer from severe lack of playtesting by persons who don't know the games well.
I understood with and agreed with like all of his reasons on the games except for gloomhaven,the puzzle of the cards is what makes the game fun,you dont like that puzzle play a different character for a different puzzle
Totally agree with so much of your feedback. I'm so glad they were other people who have my board game opinions. Thankful for your candid honesty. You guys should consider trying out Rival Restaurants if you like player interaction :). I am totally with you about Gloomhavens art 😂
#1 Root #2 Oath … wait, do I just dislike games with 4 letter names?? I still like Lords of Waterdeep, despite the pasted on theme BECAUSE of its worker placement purity. Not a common play for me but I would for nostalgia. Great vid. Positive opinions. New Sub for me. Keep em coming. 😎
😂 I love you and everything in this channel. BUT you nearly killed me with this list: Spirit Island, Eclipse, Root, Rising Sun... amazing, fun, beautiful to look and play games.... ...and then mentioning Twilight Imperiun "against" them.... don't hear me wrong, I like TI it's a good game, BUT probably if you sum up all the time for a game of all the games in the list they won't match the time for a singular TI game 😂😂😂 The only way I can survive this video is thinking you did it to provoke, see comments and laugh together. Otherwise my sanity will go down 😂 I know you were joking, right? Right? 😂 Still loving you (even after this video 😅😂😅) ❤
11 месяцев назад
To us, most board games are a waste of time and they are less interesting than typical playing cards games. Yet we like: 1754, 1775, Brian Boru, Caylus 1303, Cyclades, Junta, Cat in the Box, Scout, The Rivals of Catan, Broom Service and now we experiment with Zoo Vadis.
I have the same feelings about the *havens (which, thankfully i don't own, but have played with friends) - great dungeon crawling let down by a clunky-ass card system that sucks all the fun from it... :| And Rising Sun... which i own the full set from Kickstarter... and i love the minis and the theme to death (which is why i don't think i'll ever sell it), is just such a weird game... You can be easily trumped by ridiculous moves (which i refuse to call strategies, because a lot of times, they're really not) or things entirely out of your control...
Gloomhaven JOTL is very tactic driven. You have to know when to play which card, when to go burn cards for massive effect, and when to be efficient. You also have to worry about loots. Yes, even looting takes brain power! How do I strategize to make sure I can grab the gold? I feel my brain draining when I play this game. Every single thing I want to do, I got to think and plan so much. Basically in the game time, the heroes would have beaten that dungeon in 5 minutes. But for gamers, it takes 2-3 hours. I understand that a board game dungeon crawler is different from an action RPG like Path of Exile. But should a player really be allowed to spent 5-10 minutes planning and talking about a 5 second move/decision in game? All that thinking requirement really takes away from the dungeon crawl experience. Don't get me wrong. In some games, that 5-10 minutes of thinking each step fits the theme. For example, games like Twilight Imperium and Terraforming Mars is about building empires. So all that time deep thinking make sense. But this level of deep thinking doesn't fit the dungeon crawling theme.
Wingspan with my wife? Top 5 games, easy. It’s chill, it’s pretty, it’s fun. Engine building is great for married couples precisely because they’re low interaction. 😅 Wingspan with my buddies? Yeahhhhh… probably won’t offer to bring that out again.
I totally agree with you. All these games are hyped, but this doesn't mean that they work. Specially, when the amount of material blends you from the fact of playing a boring game. You have mentioned games in your list that I don't even would buy cause I already had a bad feeling when I watched the reviews and playthroughs. So, please, more critics. Finally, I got some confirmation. Thanks :)
Calls Eclipse a fidelity game that's too long, but thinks TI4 is amazing 🤣😂🤣😂. Played TI4 once and it was one of the worst game designs I've ever played and took wayyyyy too long (from someone who enjoys long games). To each their own, but personally, I think TI4 is absolute trash, while Eclipse is a great game I'd gladly play.
my list is very close. The exceptions are oath(never played) and eclipse(I enjoy playing once a year). I would add Twilight struggle(too long and brainburner) and Sid Meyier Civ(fiddly and has boring combat).
I came back to watch this video right after playing FCM again yesterday. I absolutely dislike playing that game, but its my girlfriend's favorite game since her family got it. She convinced me to play a 2 player game with her and I..... actually liked it? Most everything I don't like about the game is gone or mitigated with 2 player. Instead of having to deal with so many other people doing things to possibly tank your strategy and take you out of the game, 2 player feels like a really interesting competitive puzzle game. You only have to focus on one other person's hires and structure in order to predict what they'll do and then find your best strategy to counter. Weird comparison, but it gave me the same feeling as Splendor, but with HR and burgers. Makes me wonder if any of the games higher on your list or the honorable mentions might feel different for you too if you try something different.
I understand where your coming from but of course it’s all the group you have. We play Root with the kids and they love it (maybe it’s the animals)? I play wingspan with a friend who abhors conflict in games. I love GOT because I still like the theme. No one is right or wrong! Maybe next time could you do a “play this instead of this”?
Almost threw my phone out of the window in rage when I saw Eclipse on the list. Best 4x game I've ever played. Never played TI. On the same page with game of thrones (dreaded the experience). Hate the rout mechanic fantasy flight uses. Also felt Lords of Waterdeep was too blend. Never played root, was excited to try it, but after watching susd review I kind of lost interest.
Rising Sun I don’t understand how it got published at all. Broken action selection, that drives the whole game except the compact system (which is great btw). I played it twice, my very first time I won. The second time, I could not add strongholds at all during the entire game, because always someone else would take the tile….and even playing with allies, and you know yourselves, without strongholds there’s no way to expand with fighters on the map. Just ridiculous. I liked the game, production is awesome. I’m glad I played it. But I’m just done with it.
Alchemists. Beautiful components. Novel concept. Great app integration. I’ll likely never play it again. The logic/deduction skills required to keep everything straight in such a tight, yet long game just fries my brain. If you record one incorrect result, the rest of your playthrough is royally fuckled.
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I appreciate the way that this video discussion is framed in that these aren’t bad games; they’re just not good games for you. Too often I see reviewers bashing a game as being poorly designed when it’s just not designed to their tastes.
For example, you clearly like interaction in your games, while I’m much happier with a multiplayer solitaire euros :)
Every person has their own preferences for what makes a game good. I really like Wingspan but have no interest in TI4. And that’s ok! Live and let game!
How dare you share your opinion online. You can't do that! No kidding aside this was a interesting list. Thanks for sharing.
Playing it wrong. Made one crucial mistake. You're not supposed to _enjoy_ it.
I would like it to be known that straight up all these games are at or near the top of my list except for Wingspan
-Daniel
yeah time you stopped playing with noobs.
I figured you may have a few words after Gloomy/Frost/and JotL got dissed. What the hell do you and Ashton play together that you both like! Haha...
I always knew you were my favorite.
Well, at least someone on the channel has good taste
yeah, if one watched all the related videos, it figures. I can only say so far - I finished JotL and had a blast. (We play Oathsworn till we get GH 2nd)
Spirit Island?! Unsubscribe!... wait, full review coming?... alright, resubscribe.
I'm holding the resubscribe until the review comes out! He's not fooling me again! ( oДo)
Facts lol. Spirit Island is my fave board game
@@NRGYi respect your opinion even if it's wrong :3
i have not seen any game even remotely close from SI as the best game.
i can say I dont mind owning only it, and losing every single other bgame in the world.
@callmewisdom exactly my response
Ya i saw spirit island and almost closed the video. Though i basically only play the table top simulator version now.
Man that clip at 15:00 is everything I love about games. That looks like the perfect game night to me 😂😂 Probably why i love Im the boss and Chinatown.
I think my approach to this list need to be more like: top 10 recommendations. Spirit Island, Root, Jaws of the lion, Eclipse, Sidereal Confluence... all of these so enjoyable for me, I might as well try the rest
I wasn't excited about Wingspan at first, but there is something about this game which makes me play it again and again. Also, Wyrmspan would be interesting to try I guess.
For me, the top of my list is Diplomacy. It's tough to play with friends due to the trust issues and backstabby gameplay. It's also tough to play with strangers because nobody is invested enough to see it play out. The half dozen times I've played, it was always a series of complicated turns and feel-bad moments that led to unfinished games.
This is a great example of an objectively good game that many will only play once.
Yeah I have a reliable 3 player group where 2 will almost always favor teaming up if that's an option, so no cold war slash table talk based games
Seems like you and your friends need to grow a pair instead these "trust issues", its a game..
You've clearly never played Diplomacy. I have, over many years with a variety of both friends and strangers. Give the game a try yourself and see what happens. @@azoniarnl3362
I love diplomacy. The online comunity (in my experience) is broadly the kind of people who will complement you on a good stab and are much less tilt prone than people who enjoy games that don't require so much negotiation, trust, etc
My main problem is how much time it takes. I don't want to sit down and message multiple people over a board game daily. Especially when some games take the better part of a month to resolve even with daily turns. Then the time you have to spend analyzing diplomacy and the board for each game you're in 😴
I got burnt out and I think I'll probably go elsewhere for longterm strategic content. Even though the stalemate line and draws give a lot of depth to playing when behind which I absolutely love.
What a great video idea. We need more varied content like this in the board game industry. I'd also like to see more designer talk about mechanics if we can figure out how to do that in an interesting way.
"But, But, But... If you bash so many games in 15 minutes, the publishers won't love you anymore - and how do you get free copies and mentions anymore?" (think that's what many content creators think)
there is def. too much praising in bg industry or lets say not enough objective opinions on good and bad things about bgs. often i read posts on how good this new game is and 1 month later no one is talking about. glad there are a few people speaking their mind.
@@RaveKev It takes a lot of time and effort to create content about board games, so most content creators don't bother creating content about games they don't like. They barely have time to make videos about the games they like, they probably use the rest of their time to live a little. You can fault them for that, now can you!?
Good video. Not liking a game is fine if you explain what is good and bad. You do a good job of this and in fact a much better job of it then some people. I like a lot (in fact mostly) of games that others can not stand. So I'm right there with you. Looking forward to a Last Light review from you and Daniel.
Is this you, Roy, in secret? Either way I do need to introduce Daniel to last light :D -Ashton
"Not liking a game is fine if you explain..." No it isn't, nobody owes you an explanation for why they do or don't like something. Most games are just shit.
The Spirit Island one burns the most for me. With that low an opinion, nothing would likely change it but my guess is that you'd probably like it more with Events and Adversaries. They make the board state changes a lot more interesting.
Totally. Base Spirit Island is almost not worth playing to me (the game was designed with the tokens and events in mind after all).
Precisely! The base game was fun at start, but it overstayed its welcome reasonably fast. Getting Branch and Claw elevated it to be one of my all-time favourites simply because of the events messing up the predictability enough. Jagged Earth also adds the events so that's a valid, bigger, alternative.
Yeah, honestly the rulebook does the game a disservice by framing adversaries as an advanced option. Adversaries should be explained as the default with a suggestion that if the game is too difficult, you may choose to play without an adversary while learning the basics.
SidCon is absolutely amazing 10/10 and I understand everyone who doesn't want to play it.
I agree with basically all of this, except with a caveat/suggestion for Spirit Island. I think the thing that makes Spirit Island sing for me is when you start increasing the difficulty. You go from a simple whack-a-mole style to having to actually combo spirit powers, gather and push colonists into safe/bad zones, and really actually have pay offs for the ridiculous things your spirits can do but don't really ever *have* to do in the base difficulty.
You don't even need to go to a crazy high difficulty level, just a couple bumps up from the base and the whole game changes.
In the base game, I would find that we often win quickly and kind of "Oh, if we just kill this city here we win" style. Or, I'd be able to do 20 damage to an area that only had ~8-9 health worth of colonists there. But as you ramp the difficulty, you start needing to plan better, communicate with your team your capabilities, and overall, it just gets to be an amazing co-op experience that rewards you for skillful play and learning your spirit better over time.
This video inspired me to get all these games 👍
:)
There's a dynamic I've experienced in every hobby I've seen:
- You dip your toes and get hooked
- You feed the addiction a bit more, it's a high
- You overcompensate your appreciation of the hobby making it a huge part of your identity
- This is not sustainable and you dial it back a little bit
- You actually find a stable enjoyment to commitment ratio and struggle to go back to your previous ways
I first noticed it with craft beer where I brewed my own beer and eventually stopped entirely fiending for the most gaudy & exclusive craft brews I could buy. I'm now seeing it again with board games where the 1-2 hour game is infinitely more appealing than the 4 hour fever dream. I struggle to even believe me & my homies gathered to play TI3 5 weeks in a row once.
I feel like almost all the games on the list fit in that bucket, wngspan being the big exception. And man, a solid 3rd of that list is in my collection atm so I feel ya. Right now I've been buying a lot of new stuff which makes revisiting games pretty rare for me. But when you bring back out a Rising Sun or FCM, you feel some different type of way about them just on the time & complexity & table space creep alone.
Funnily enough, I tend to like games that turn into hot mess (Experience driven over tactical considerations, chaotic, etc). Sidereal confluence as a result exists in a really weird spot where I could probably enjoy that game, a lot. But I also fear that it's "too much" and would experience it once or twice and then just never consider it again when picking a game for the day.
I know you're serious but where did you find buds to meet with you every week for 5 weeks to play TI. We need us some friends like those.
@@ChitsandCardboard nowadays the same playgroup is a once every 8 months situation at most lol
@@HeyImBode I suppose the hype does die down. Also I imagine that was a while ago and eventually life takes over. I think every board gamer dreams of having a group that'll spend 10 hours a week playing anything in their collection though. It's so interesting, the mind of a boardgamer.
If I play one game, it will be Spirit Island.
You literally read my mind, in short for me these 3 things have to be spot on to enjoy the game :
1. A great board game has to run fluently with little player downtime, keeping everyone engaged instead of having players fall asleep till their turn comes again!
2. The Rules have to be straightforward and keep the same logic throughout the entire game, not be confusing and keep changing the logic!
3. Scoring combats, outcomes, and following flow charts need to be straightforward not tedious and complex as if I am doing a complex math test, nothing worse than when at the end of the game I feel exhausted and get a migraine from all that tediousness!I am there with you with all of them, particularly Roots , Gloomheaven, Eclipse, and GOT!
Describing Spirit Island as "whack-a-mole" is straight up wrong. Like, it's understandable if the game didn't resonate with you, but that isn't why. The enemy AI has multiple tiered incentives, you can weather short term losses to mitigate long term damage. Like... it's whack-a-mole, if you were told where the moles would pop up a minute in advance, had a wealth of tools to manipulate the behavior of the moles beforehand, and were also not even obliged to whack the moles. You failed to perceive the strategy space of the game on even a fundamental level.
Interesting to hear you say that you’d probably rather just play D&D than play the rpg-esque Oath. That’s a very helpful comment, and highlights a neglected area for board game reviewers: what board game adjacent activities do y’all also do (rpgs, poker, other card games, phone apps, certain video games) that might influence your personal enjoyment of specific board games. Sometimes it feels like board game reviewers steer clear of acknowledging interests outside of just board games, when of course anyone will have varied interests that would deepen the understanding of their audience
Great comment! Was a great read -Ashton
What?! You'll never play (insert viewer's favorite here) again? I don't know why I even watch this channel. I love (insert viewer's favorite here)! You don't understand the mechanics at all, YOU' MUST BE PLAYING IT WRONG!!!
Most of these I've never played except for Eclipse and Wingspan. Eclipse, I will agree to disagree with you on. Wingspan on the other hand, after playing Earth recently, I think it might be time to tear down the bird blind.
Great video! Look forward to your next one. Keep up the good work.
Interesting list. I just recently played wingspan and my initial evaluation was very similar. I always felt like I'd prefer to play Oceans indtead, which has a ton more interactivity but has a similar feel.
About Spirit Island (my favorite game), it seems you've played without tokens and without events? As far as I'm concerned, the game totally needs those to open up and live. It's oozing with theme from every mechanic and rule I encounter, which keeps me coming back to it and just immersing myself in the island. I could instantly start a new round after finishing a game. Just a suggestion, because I felt like the game was missing something before adding Branch & Claw and only after that did the island really come to life for me. ^^
You're correct on SI, I played without tokens and without events! I think our friend group just didn't want to play with those mechanics for us, and from how it was described by Daniel (who by the way loves SI and loves these additions), I don't think it would change my enjoyment much. Cheers and happy new years! -Ashton
@@Shelfside You basically only played the first tutorial and then reviewed the game... The tutorial intentionally feels basic and whack-a-moley so it can teach the core mechanics before introducing complexity.
My favorite board game right now, if you can even call it that since is far more card focused, is the Red Dragon Inn. Seriously I'm kind of addicted to the simple mayhem of the game. The theme is so strong, games doesn't end super quickly but don't drag on forever either, and the core game play is both somehow incredibly easy to understand even on a first playthrough but also complex enough to reward careful planning.
I love Spirit island and Root, and Eclipse is my favorite board game of all time. It's cool that despite having such wildly different tastes I still respect your opinions. I guess you're just chill with it, goated with the sauce or whatever.
You did indeed get me for a second Ashton. Cheeky Devil. Audibly gasped when I saw Twilight Imperium PoK.
hehehhe -Ashton
For Sidereal - my first game was 4+ hours. I introduced the official variant of using a 10 minute timer for each trading phase. The game now only takes 2 hours. I highly recommend the timer if the time is the main issue. It also does not feel that restrictive at all to do so. Also looks like you had way too many people in your game from that video. Also none of my friends shout in the game so I imagine that is really dependent on group dynamics haha. There will be people who slide into someone's negotiations and steals a deal but that is more fun to me haha. I always play 5 or 6 players and that has been perfect for me (I think 5 is the sweet spot because you are not having too much information from other people but the trading is still dynamic and rich and I also assume that is another reason for less shouting haha)
Yeah it's a bit odd, it's like at lower player counts there's not enough trading so Daniel wants more people, but at higher player counts there's too many people and it's overwhelming. I just don't think its for me :) -Ashton
I love Argent and have largely the same complaints about it- my opinion though is that these issues are far more pronounced at larger player counts. With six people, who ends up on a good spot is wholly random, whereas at 3 it's very controllable. I would never play with more than 4 again, and honestly I only really lean towards it if we have exactly 3.
Only going to comment on games I've actually played.
Lords of Waterdeep - Yawn.
Wingspan - SUPER boring and way over hyped.
Root is just so complicated for how basic it is, if that makes any sense?
FCM - Only con is that it really takes up too much space, and finding people to play it. Also feel like if everyone has some plays it makes the game much better.
Spirit Island is a gem , you shut your mouth :D
Great video, I prefer more "negative" videos cause it gives me a more realistic review. If I can see past why some people might not like a game I can more easily tell if its a game is for me.
I feel you on Gloom Haven. The card play is WAAAY to heavy even just to do simple things like move and grab loot.
I love everything about Gloomhaven except the setup/tear down.
That’s the reason I don’t play it anymore
@@Verbos1979 Maybe you would like Gloomhaven online? The steam version is great to remove all that setup.
I really love the gameplay of -Haven games.
We need more of this! There are too many reviews that give games the benefit of the doubt, and downplay annoying play experiences. People want to be positive about things! I've been wanting to get Wingspan, but have been worried about the exact things you speak of - so you saved me $60. TY. I too tried Root online, and it was a bust for me. I thought maybe because it was a just solo experience, but I also thought maybe I just suck - so many gametubers love it!. In the end, I think I didn't jive with the mechanics of the game.
I love Sidereal Confluence! My friends always wish there were 1 or 2 more rounds to buy some of the more expensive techs.
Totally agree on the chaos on the table and how exhausting it can be tho.
Im sure I could also make a top ten list like this if I look on bgg. Everyone's got games that they just don't enjoy, despite everyone else in the game group loving it.
One that comes to mind for me is Castles of Burgundy. That game just feels like I'm not doing what I want to do, but just what the dice decide I should do. You can only get so many workers, and you only get to be first for so long during a game, so a lot of castles is not rolling the numbers you wanted, and then having to do something else that you didnt want to do instead.
Your comments about Gloomhaven were interesting. For my group and I the reason we love Gloomhaven so much is because of the actual strategic gameplay, too many narrative rpg games simplify the actual gameplay to rolling dice and at that point i'd rather just read a book. It's important for us to know that win or lose its because we made good or bad decisions. We wouldn't spend £100+ on a game for the "simple thrill". It is a massive game though, and i'm sure by the time we finish the entire campaign we'll never touch another game in the series again.
Spirit Island is my favorite game of all time. I need to remind myself that he's reviewing the CORE game, which is understandably very algorithmic and boring. Spirit Island shines as you add (all of the) expansions, which drastically add to the depth and flavor of the game. You also need to start increasing the difficulty to really appreciate and discover the strategic depth and discover combos between spirits and powers.
I feel like this reviewer barely scratched the surface of what Spirit Island has to offer, and understandably so, as they can only invest so much time into each game. But unfortunately, that results in a review which is only skin-deep, and thus a distortion of what the game can truly be.
Looking forward for that JoCo review!
Same. Love this game. It's an excellent negotiation experience wrapped around a serious board game about a serious topic.
Sidereal is prob our groups favorite heavyish game for 6 players. It's such a hard player count to do right, and I think the game nails it. It does REQUIRE all players to be into the trading aspect though. Above 6 and it prob gets a bit *to* chaotic, and hard for people to keep track of stuff though.
Also I think it's funny that what I think is the BEST aspect of Eclipse(the ship building) is your least favorite.
I agree, I didn't played most of these games but for example Root, I just can't, this game has such a steeping curve for me and my friends, the friends who have it they understand it and they make a play in 20 seconds then others turn comes around and they feel completely lost with what they can do, who is winning now and etc.
I love all the games that I've played that you mentioned. Root is my favorite of all time. But I do have my share of unpopular opinions. I don't care for Terraforming Mars, Ark Nova, and Space Base.
Unintuitive is a very good description for Rising Sun.
And it's definitely not an area of control game. Buuuut when you grasp what you're supposed to do, I find elegant it's simplicity and how you can plan things ahead easily.
TI4 is on my list. Which is weird cause I am big on 4X, Scifi, Diplomacy, etc. All elements are there in Twillight, but somehow every game that I had with it, I had no fun. I prefer Eclipse!
Absolutely LOVE Eclipse. It's an amazing game that gets even better when you start playing with the non-human factions. It may feel battle heavy but we've had a player win while never initiating combat.
Spirit Island I'm totally on the same boat with you. Me and my wife have played it three times, gotten totally stomped each time, and don't really plan on playing it again.
Root I've only played once but loved it and am looking forward to more games of it!
Eclipse is also pretty fast from what we saw to our surprise. Suggested 25 mins per player might be a bit too far fetched BUT three player game lasted 1 hour 30 mins.
There is also something else I noticed quite recently while playing Terraforming Mars: realization you don't even know when these 3 hours passed.
Great video and I of course, respect your opinions. It is hard for me to imagine Spirit Island on this list though. I understand that everything is not for everyone but I have put like 100+ hours into that game and can't wait to do more lol.
For sidereal confluence, At 5 players our games normally take under 2 hours.
It’s pretty much my favorite game and we have a group that’s played pretty much weekly for a year and a half.
I do recognize that it’s not a game for everyone, but it seems to me that something was explained incorrectly somewhere as my experience playing this game never turn into just shouting deals.
It is a game that has very little downtime and requires a lot of quick thinking, so I can certainly understand wanting to have more non game based interaction with your friends.
Great video! My thoughts on each:
10) Haven't played it. Just sounds painful.
9) Completely agree, but never knew exactly how to vocalize it. The hand management just doesn't engage me.
8) Haven't played it. Always seemed to fiddley. Might check out the online though.
7) I love the idea of this game, and I own it. Too bad I can't get the same group to play it multiple times with me.
6) I used to love this game. Played it recently and just found it to be a chore.
5) Love this game. Play it digitally everyday. I own a physically copy, but can never get it to the table. Too hard to teach.
4) Never played, but find myself agreeing with you. Way too much going on.
3) Hated Blood Rage so much that I haven't even looked at the other games.
2) Completely agree. Too long for how little interaction there is. Engine isn't satisfying.
1) Lol, I love this game. Problem is, most my friends agree with you so I hardly get to play it. Definitely not for everyone
OMG, I audibly said "WHAT!!" after hearing #1. I JUST received Sidereal Confuence and have planned a day to play it and I'm EXCITED! The idea is to stick a time limit on each trading phase to keep things going. I also don't agree with FCM but that's becasue I enjoy the zero RNG, no holds barred style. I get that it's not for everyone though. The rest I can't really say much on, I just enjoy Gloomhaven for what it is. Awesome video!
Hahaha, thought people would be very mixed on Sidereal. It's a really good game, but just definitely not for me. Even with the time limit for trading it's not working for me -Ashton
I played Siderial twice with 2 different groups. With a time limit (i think 15 minutes per trade - whatever is in rules). It was great both times. Everyone loved it. Second play was on a group week-long get-togeher and they wanted to play it one more time right after the first game. Its the kind of game, where i will most likely remember every game i play for a long time. Similar to my games of Cosmic encounter and (original reprint of) Dune and War of the ring. I love when game is goofy, social, roleplay-ish and still an actual game. I win most games i play, im super competetive and its super hard for me to enjoy game for the game and experience. Thats why im always happy to find a game that is just pure fun and chaos :) Btw make sure to read all siderial conf. player boards for all races in addition to rules and how to learn the game sheet. It makes the experience for everyone else much smoother.
Yeah, I couldn't enjoy Rising Sun either. I tried so hard to like it but it just wasn't for me. Wingspan also isn't for me, my wife loves it but I'm just bored 80% of the time. Oddly enough, one of my favorites is Mystic Vale which is complete solitaire. However, I totally can see why people love Wingspan, and I originally did love it my first 10 games or so.
Lol, while Root Digital is a great way to knock out plays for experienced players, I think it might be the worst possible way to try and learn the game. The quickness works against it, and leaves new players such as Shelfside feeling completely clueless as to how anyone is doing anything and how they should act with their own faction to counter. It doesn't help that the "faction boards" for Root Digital leave off a rule or two, so you might not even know a thing exists in the game.
We also might be diametrically opposed as 2 of my top 3 are on this list 🤷.
Also, I completely respect your right to like or dislike things as you see fit.
I think all gamer's should create a list like this, and use it to edit their collections so they can better focus their time on titles they truly find enjoyable. Regarding Oath, I admire what Cole created (and in large part his efforts succeeded) but had to navigate a not insignificant amount of frustration as I felt the rules and various player roles took me along for an unguided ride rather than leave my sense of agency intact. I instinctively know there is an excellent game there if only I can commit the time to deciphering all the subtleties of the design- which is really hard to do when there are so many other games that have a much lower entry barrier to a great experience.
I am really, really hoping I don't have the same feelings about the upcoming sci-fi pseudo epic Arcs...
I was just about to say that the Sidereal Confluence gameplay footage reminded me of the frenetic mayhem you see on the stock exchange floor, and then you took the words right outta my mouth, lol.
I keep telling myself I'm going to try Wingspan to see what the fuss is about, but every time I pick up the box or see it on sale on Steam I realize the bird theme does nothing for me, and then I pass on it.
Great content! Thanks to this expert analysis we can better direct our resources to the best games and avoid those that are less rewar-ahhh who am i kidding im gonna buy all these anyway such is life when your addicted to cardboard (" -.-)
Like the Age of Empires sound effects lol
Great video that shows that you need to figure out your preferred mechanics and not just go "Hey it's number xyz on BGG therefore I must like it". Case in point for me is actually TI4. That would be my number 1 on this list :)
How do you feel about Everdell if you don't like Wingspan?
very different games
Wingspan is deeply boring.
I see John Company. Review soon???
I agree to most of what you said about the mentioned games.
"Gloomhaven"/"Frosthaven" and "Wingspan" are ridiculously overrated anyways.
"Root" and in parts "Oath" are broken. "Rising Sun" feels also dysfunctional and very unenjoyable.
"Sidereal Confluence" is crazy. "Argent Consortium" desperately needs streamlining.
"Food Chain Magnate" is unique but utterly unenjoyable for most players.
"Spirit Island" is an amazing design, but I just don't like to play it most of the time. Even with variations from the nation boards, the invaders do more or less the same every game.
The one where I don't agree with you is "Lords of Waterdeep".
Siderial Confluence was awesome the one time that i got to play it :)
Eclipse is a great game if you actually play the asymmetric factions and you CAN negotiate, just have to actually do it
I'd love to see your take on what game plays better or worse in digital format.
The whack-a-mole feeling with Spirit Island I'm sorry to say just boils down to a skill issue. That isn't to say it's an invalid opinion because ultimately if a game requires you to get over a skill hump, that can be a problem for many. But once you get over that, there is a satisfying arc to the power you acquire that lets you turn the tide in a very addicting way. I've played with people who become downright giddy over the turn they have constructed for themselves and can't wait to have people watch the destruction they get to rain down on invaders, a feeling that very few games provide.
It's a playing on too low a difficulty issue. At difficulty 0, it lets you get away with whack-a-mole strategies even if it's a horribly inefficient way to play. Try that against a high level adversary and you'll get crushed, there are simply too many threats. It's fundamentally a game of triage, deciding which threats you have to take care of now, which threats you can stop but might be too costly, and which ones you can't address yet. If you take away that decision by playing on a low enough difficulty that you can handle every threat, you're not playing the same game.
@@Oneiroclast I think it's both. I've played the game with ppl who have the same issue and they never get good enough at the game to want to increase the difficulty. At level 0 without any adversaries, there is no feeling of whack-a-mole because good players have the entire board under control in 3 turns or less.
Man, I feel the same for OATH, its like... Its supposed to be super fun and narrative, and I feel digging the rulebook, the internet, the BGG, the Leder Games page, to just make my FIRST action of my turn. :-(
Here, let me blow the dust off my copy of Oath….(poof). Yep, you’re still right.
I love Cole Wehrle's games (I love Root and Pax Pamir!), but I still haven't been able to get this on the table... I'm pretty ok with complex games (such as Lacerda games), but I can't just wrap my brain around Oath's rules. All the term seems super strange and unintuitive. Maybe I should just force myself to play the practice game and maybe then it would make more sense.
Sidereal?! Have a timer on trade rounds and if you don’t like loud don’t play with more than 5. Boom fixed. Shortens the game and lowers the intensity to a consumable level. Love that game.
100% agreed on all, except root. Problem with root is that the vagabond should have been an expansion. If they put moles or corvid in the base game box instead, the games would have way more appeal to a broader audience.
This is what i was thinking, and honestly the game opens up far more once the expansions are tossed in.
ooh, yeah vagabond being an expansion would be awesome -Ashton
Ironically that's when Vagabond has a massive expansion rolling just around them.
Also the problem with Root is that you can't play some of the expansion factions in 1 vs 1 as they have too small "balance pool" (lizards and aforementioned corvids) which you could ignore BUT they just don't work in two player games. Unless you put an automaton into the game but then it feels like a bother to simulate the third player too.
This was a great inspiration for my newest video. Thanks for the great video, and the great Idea. My list is going to be way more different from yours, so this is interesting.
I totally agree with the GoT game. It's a really cool game, but would I rather play it over TI4? No. TI4 is amazing.
I feel like Gloomhaven is a once-through and maybe a twice-through if you really love it.
I really feel the same way about Rising Sun. It's a cool game and I really like it, but would I rather play that over blood rage?
I definitely disagree on Root though. Root is my absolute favorite game.
I agree with 60% of this list....we're of a mind. I do like Root, in-person with friends - Not the tournament crowd. I also love the GoT boardgame but it's completely impractical for me to ever play it at this stage in life (father of 4 little ones). Sidereal Confluence was fun for me. Food Chain remains a personal favorite. Agree on the rest though
Crazy spirit island was on this list. There are some valid criticisms I can see, but whack-a-mole doesn’t really even make sense to me as one. With dahan and buildings and the various spirit mechanics- some spirits forbid you from whacking anything altogether. It’s like saying chess is whack-a-mole with all the pawns coming at you.
Agree with all your other picks though, except I think Root’s digital version streamlines overhead to such a huge degree that it exempts it. You should definitely try it out if you haven’t, I’ll probably never play the physical again because of it.
I actually agree with you on everything except Lords of Waterdeep. Lords of Waterdeep is one of the best introductory worker placements with some cool flavor text and theme, I would play that anytime and really like the app as well.
I agree! The only issue is that it is not as thematic, I don't feel the theme and those cubes as adventurers ... it really becomes about collecting color cubes to pay the needed amount to hand in the card and score, you could easily turn the game into a restaurant theme and red cubes could be meat, purple fruit, white bread and so on it would still feel and play the same!
I couldn't agree more on Spirit Island.
I appreciate how innovative this game is in both theme and design. But at the end of the day, it feels mind-numbingly repetitive and the best ideas just seem to fall flat in terms of execution.
Wingspan is great as the game that is almost universally known. No teaching, no rules checks, almost no set-up time and a quick painless clean up...there are situations where it can be the perfect thing to bring to the table. When you want a thoughtful immersive gaming session, not so much.
Spirit Island is tough because so much of it is clever and interesting but then it bogs down with the brain numbing tedium of the battle resolution. I absolutely love playing it for about 30 minutes and then I've had enough.
Wingspan though is really boring for gamers that like interaction. That applies obviously to all multiplayer solitaire (your castles, terraforming, etc).
On the other hand i love very high levels of interactions like negotiation games, but it's an unpopular genre and it is hard to table those games. Different strokes for different folks.
I have found Wingspan to be great for my kid, as she doesn't really like too much interaction and just wants to focus on building up her own thing.
I like Eclipse, brilliant design and not too long. I'd choose to play it over Twilight Imperium
Wow I agree with and have given away every game on this list (excluding 1 and 4 because I’ve never played either) besides Rising sun because I just love it too much.
I have over 20 games of eclipse down (because my group loves it) and I can’t handle another play through.
After playing and trying to force myself to like spirit island many times, I feel like it is way overrated and repetitive.
We love Rising Sun too, one of our favorites.
Sidereal Confluence isn't a game, it's an experience.
I completely understand why people find Sidereal too exhausting. It the most interactive and most unique game I have ever played. And that's why it has a spot in my top 10 games of all time.
I am seven months late with this comment, but I also never want to play Gloomhaven ever again. I got into a campaign when the game originally came out and when I first started playing it I thought the game was absolutely absolutely amazing. And then it slowly started to grate upon me, the game was way to fiddly, the mechanics of the game and the combat started to really get on my nerves. I stuck around and finished the campaign, but I never been more happier for a campaign to come to an end.
I've had many people tell me that some of the apps that are out there to keep track of a lot of what's happening in the game fixes a lot of the fiddly and housekeeping issues, but I still don't want to play it ever again.
‘Honourable’ mentions. Should have called it ‘dishonourable’ mentions hahahaha
Inlefit thought Unbala... Unmatched would be on this list.
So I guess you'd still be willing to play it despite torturing yourself for a month on its digital edition.
Noooo Ashton! Now we can never meet and one day play Gloomhaven together!! Bye bye #friendship-goals. Now I know how Daniel must feel...😅.
Thanks for the vid! I'm not yet brave enough to admit that some of these games should leave my collection
Great first video of yours that I have seen. Really like your take on the games and how you describe your feel. I hear rave reviews on Gloom/Frost Haven and watching the plays... I just don't like it. You perfectly summed up my view after watching it played. Subbed! Looking forward to more of your content.
I agree with spirit island and also wingspan which is pretty to look at, and kinda mediocre to play.
Idk much about the others except root, I enjoy bit mostly play solo with the bots
With regards to Gloomhaven. When you first discover it your mind goes wild. This sounds as close to perfect as can be. And so you dive in headfirst. And you play and play and play and play. And between having played Jaws of the lion complete and about 1.5 campaigns of Gloomhaven that amounts to roughly 100 times that I played this game.
Even the games that I played as a kid don't add up to that many times played. So when I say "I'm done playing Gloomhaven" it is not exactly a negative per se. It just means that I've played SO much of it that I had enough. With some years behind I might put it on the table again but for now it is just enough.
Oath super heavily depends on your playgroup. I found that the key to Oath is that everyone on the table is willing to tell a story together. Role-play your faction and see what happens. Winning and losing and even actually "playing" become less important than looking into a fantasy world that is evolving play by play.
BUT surprise surprise that is not what most people expect or even want when they play a game. So not connecting with Oath is rather the norm and not the exception.
And lastly Root for me has worked by culling it down. At first I wanted to get every expansion, every extension. More variety. MORE MORE MORE. But that actually took away from the game. The OG factions are perfect for me and the river folk are the only extension I need for a bit of variety. Add in hirelings to THOSE (and only those) factions and the clockworks for different player counts and you can get a pretty reliable experience out of the game. The specific factions that do it for you might differ. Each group might have a different set that they prefer. And admittedly it is expensive to get everything, figure that out and then get rid of the rest. But imo it is worth it.
Wingspan has a new game now with a dragon theme (Wyrmspan). Still pretty similar, tho with added mechanics. Kind of feels a bit more like a race towards some objectives and guild stuff, so a little more interactive with other players in that regard.
Agree with Spirit Island--Alex Radcliffe said it well in his review, that there is no climax, tension, or drama. The game just ends, feels the same whether you win or lose, and you often see the win or lose coming from many turns away. It's more of a puzzle than a game.
Also, all of Cole Wehrle's games (Vast, Root, Oath, etc.) are huge disappointments for me. While all very cool in uniqueness of concepts, art, and mechanics, really just fail to deliver on the enjoyment/emotion promised by their grandiose uniqueness. The designs are self-indulgent: mechanisms created around unique ideas for the purpose of making the game unique, not making the game fun. Suffer from severe lack of playtesting by persons who don't know the games well.
I understood with and agreed with like all of his reasons on the games except for gloomhaven,the puzzle of the cards is what makes the game fun,you dont like that puzzle play a different character for a different puzzle
Totally agree with so much of your feedback. I'm so glad they were other people who have my board game opinions. Thankful for your candid honesty. You guys should consider trying out Rival Restaurants if you like player interaction :). I am totally with you about Gloomhavens art 😂
#1 Root
#2 Oath
… wait, do I just dislike games with 4 letter names??
I still like Lords of Waterdeep, despite the pasted on theme BECAUSE of its worker placement purity. Not a common play for me but I would for nostalgia.
Great vid. Positive opinions. New Sub for me. Keep em coming. 😎
😂
I love you and everything in this channel.
BUT you nearly killed me with this list: Spirit Island, Eclipse, Root, Rising Sun... amazing, fun, beautiful to look and play games....
...and then mentioning Twilight Imperiun "against" them.... don't hear me wrong, I like TI it's a good game, BUT probably if you sum up all the time for a game of all the games in the list they won't match the time for a singular TI game 😂😂😂
The only way I can survive this video is thinking you did it to provoke, see comments and laugh together.
Otherwise my sanity will go down 😂
I know you were joking, right? Right? 😂
Still loving you (even after this video 😅😂😅) ❤
To us, most board games are a waste of time and they are less interesting than typical playing cards games. Yet we like: 1754, 1775, Brian Boru, Caylus 1303, Cyclades, Junta, Cat in the Box, Scout, The Rivals of Catan, Broom Service and now we experiment with Zoo Vadis.
I have the same feelings about the *havens (which, thankfully i don't own, but have played with friends) - great dungeon crawling let down by a clunky-ass card system that sucks all the fun from it... :|
And Rising Sun... which i own the full set from Kickstarter... and i love the minis and the theme to death (which is why i don't think i'll ever sell it), is just such a weird game... You can be easily trumped by ridiculous moves (which i refuse to call strategies, because a lot of times, they're really not) or things entirely out of your control...
Gloomhaven JOTL is very tactic driven. You have to know when to play which card, when to go burn cards for massive effect, and when to be efficient. You also have to worry about loots. Yes, even looting takes brain power! How do I strategize to make sure I can grab the gold? I feel my brain draining when I play this game. Every single thing I want to do, I got to think and plan so much. Basically in the game time, the heroes would have beaten that dungeon in 5 minutes. But for gamers, it takes 2-3 hours. I understand that a board game dungeon crawler is different from an action RPG like Path of Exile. But should a player really be allowed to spent 5-10 minutes planning and talking about a 5 second move/decision in game? All that thinking requirement really takes away from the dungeon crawl experience.
Don't get me wrong. In some games, that 5-10 minutes of thinking each step fits the theme. For example, games like Twilight Imperium and Terraforming Mars is about building empires. So all that time deep thinking make sense. But this level of deep thinking doesn't fit the dungeon crawling theme.
Wingspan with my wife? Top 5 games, easy. It’s chill, it’s pretty, it’s fun. Engine building is great for married couples precisely because they’re low interaction. 😅
Wingspan with my buddies? Yeahhhhh… probably won’t offer to bring that out again.
I totally agree with you. All these games are hyped, but this doesn't mean that they work. Specially, when the amount of material blends you from the fact of playing a boring game. You have mentioned games in your list that I don't even would buy cause I already had a bad feeling when I watched the reviews and playthroughs. So, please, more critics. Finally, I got some confirmation. Thanks :)
Calls Eclipse a fidelity game that's too long, but thinks TI4 is amazing 🤣😂🤣😂. Played TI4 once and it was one of the worst game designs I've ever played and took wayyyyy too long (from someone who enjoys long games). To each their own, but personally, I think TI4 is absolute trash, while Eclipse is a great game I'd gladly play.
my list is very close. The exceptions are oath(never played) and eclipse(I enjoy playing once a year). I would add Twilight struggle(too long and brainburner) and Sid Meyier Civ(fiddly and has boring combat).
I came back to watch this video right after playing FCM again yesterday. I absolutely dislike playing that game, but its my girlfriend's favorite game since her family got it. She convinced me to play a 2 player game with her and I..... actually liked it? Most everything I don't like about the game is gone or mitigated with 2 player. Instead of having to deal with so many other people doing things to possibly tank your strategy and take you out of the game, 2 player feels like a really interesting competitive puzzle game. You only have to focus on one other person's hires and structure in order to predict what they'll do and then find your best strategy to counter. Weird comparison, but it gave me the same feeling as Splendor, but with HR and burgers. Makes me wonder if any of the games higher on your list or the honorable mentions might feel different for you too if you try something different.
I understand where your coming from but of course it’s all the group you have. We play Root with the kids and they love it (maybe it’s the animals)? I play wingspan with a friend who abhors conflict in games. I love GOT because I still like the theme. No one is right or wrong! Maybe next time could you do a “play this instead of this”?
Gloomhaven drags in digital form, I can't even imagine how bad it is with physical pieces.
Almost threw my phone out of the window in rage when I saw Eclipse on the list. Best 4x game I've ever played. Never played TI. On the same page with game of thrones (dreaded the experience). Hate the rout mechanic fantasy flight uses. Also felt Lords of Waterdeep was too blend. Never played root, was excited to try it, but after watching susd review I kind of lost interest.
Rising Sun I don’t understand how it got published at all. Broken action selection, that drives the whole game except the compact system (which is great btw). I played it twice, my very first time I won. The second time, I could not add strongholds at all during the entire game, because always someone else would take the tile….and even playing with allies, and you know yourselves, without strongholds there’s no way to expand with fighters on the map. Just ridiculous. I liked the game, production is awesome. I’m glad I played it. But I’m just done with it.
Alchemists.
Beautiful components. Novel concept. Great app integration. I’ll likely never play it again.
The logic/deduction skills required to keep everything straight in such a tight, yet long game just fries my brain. If you record one incorrect result, the rest of your playthrough is royally fuckled.