Why Germany Doesn't Buy the F-35
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- Опубликовано: 29 май 2024
- I (try to) answer a question I get asked a lot.
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- Sources -
A. Shalal, Germany asks U.S. for classified briefing on F-35 fighter, Reuters, 17.05.2020 www.reuters.com/article/us-lo...
A. Shalal & S. Siebold, Tornado replacement must be fifth generation, Reuters, 08.11.2017, www.reuters.com/article/us-ge...
Atomwaffenfrei, available at: www.atomwaffenfrei.de/home.html
Augengeradeaus, Merkposten: Airbus sieht Eurofighter auch bei Electronic Warfare als Tornado-Nachfolger (Nachtrag), 05.11.2019, augengeradeaus.net/2019/11/me...
Augengeradeaus, Luftwaffe bekommt neue Eurofighter als Ersatz für erste Generation (Nachtrag), 05.11.2020, augengeradeaus.net/2020/11/lu...
Die Presse, Deutschland sucht den "Super-Fighter", 03.02.2019, www.diepresse.com/5573129/deu...
D. Perry, FCAS workshare plan sparks German union concerns, 17.02.2021, www.flightglobal.com/defence/...
DSCA, Belgium - F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft, 18.01.2018, www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/...
H. Brauß & Dr. C. Mölling, Germany's Role in NATO Nuclear Sharing, 03.02.2020, dgap.org/en/research/publicat...
ICAN, AVV - Warum ist Deutschland noch nicht dabei?, 17.02.2021,www.icanw.de/neuigkeiten/avv-...
J. Stoltenberg, Germany’s support for nuclear sharing is vital, 11.05.2020, www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/op...
J. Bronk, German Decision to Split Tornado Replacement is a Poor One, 26.03.2020, rusi.org/publication/rusi-def...
J. Trevithick, Watch An F-35 Drop A B61 Nuclear Bomb, 23.11.2020, www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...
Greenpeace, Atomwaffen in Deutschland, 21.10.2020, www.greenpeace.de/themen/umwe...
Greenpeace, Greenpeace-Umfrage zu Atomwaffen, 07.2020, www.greenpeace.de/sites/www.g...
M. Morcinek, Über einen Kampfjet gestolpert? Inspekteur der Luftwaffe muss gehen, nTv, 16.03.2018, www.n-tv.de/politik/Inspekteu...
Reuters, Norway receives first F-35 fighter jet, 10.11.2017, www.reuters.com/article/us-no...
S. Sprenger, Airbus tells French lawmakers there’s no ‘Plan B’ for FCAS, 17.03.2021, www.defensenews.com/global/eu...
S. Roblin, The Air Force admits the F-35 fighter jet costs too much, 07.03.2021, www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion...
Spiegel, Haushaltsausschuss genehmigt Kauf neuer Eurofighter, 05.11.2020, www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc...
Tagesschau, Vertrag in Kraft - ohne Deutschland, 22.01.2021, www.tagesschau.de/inland/atom...
V. Insinna, The price of the F-35 has been falling, 23.07.2020, www.defensenews.com/industry/...
Vergabeblog, Bundeswehr: Eurofighter für 5,5 Mrd. EUR, 10.11.2020, www.vergabeblog.de/2020-11-10...
Thumbnail: DoD
- Timecodes -
00:00 - Intro
00:37 - A plane. We Need a plane!
02:05 - F-35: Favorite Outcast
06:04 - Scary self promotion: 60 intermission
07:03 - German military procurement
07:44 - Issue 1 The Industry
09:22 - Issue 2 The American Dollar
14:40 - Issue 3 Nukes!
17:38 - Issue 4 The Bundeswehr
21:45 - Hot potato
- Audio -
Music and Sfx from Epidemic Sound
- Disclaimer -
Description includes affiliate links
The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement.
Had to shorten the source names on this one since apparently you can only have 5000 characters in the description... #usingsourcesonYTproblem
Price? For real? Grandma's Eurofighter are 30% pricier.
I'd like you to feel defended.... F35 is expensive. but then again fa18s with .... themselves. efs, whatnot can handle Russians and Chinese
Those "y'all's" thrown in there by the American Salesman character gave me a good laugh. I've never heard a German speaker attempting an American accent and using y'all. From an American I can tell you it was wunderbar!
Perhaps another reason for buying European is the possibility that America won't be a reliable partner in the future.
The plane to buy might be the KF-21
Revisiting this video March 14, 2022... Every TV station in Germany is announcing that Germans will buy F35 😗
Revisiting this Video on june 23 of 2023
A German trying to imitate a German. Now I've seen everything.
Someone with a German name remarking that a German is imitating a German. Now I've seen everything.
@@conveyor2 lol, sorry to say I ain't no German. My name actually originates from Switzerland.
@@conveyor2 roflmao!!!
@@jacobbaumgardner3406 yeah, right, they still speak German when they are called Baumgardner.........LOLLOL
@@jacobbaumgardner3406 an what’s the difference?
Germany missed the F35 kickstarter discount
While witty, you're spot on. That really is the hang-up.
Makes up for all the penalties they never miss.
The kickstarter discount was not that attractive. The kickstarter partners were told to fork over more dough to get access to a crippled version of the aircraft. Not a good deal at all. It is like getting someone else to pay for the cake that you get to eat.
@@brantregare The US does not sell crippled aircraft to its NATO partners. It's the USSR that was famed for 'monkey models.'
Admittedly, the exported machines are not 100% equivalent to US machines. But they are not dogs. The Israelis accept US exports -- and they don't do so badly with -- what you term as -- cripples.
The UK is not getting 'dogs.'
The US wants its NATO partners to have un-beatable fighters, bombers, and everything else. It does not figure to -- or fear -- fighting its NATO allies under any scenario.
The weirdness of the Turks: Russian S-400s will obviously not bother the Russian air force. So their only purpose must be to shoot at NATO aircraft.
What kind of crazy tyrant pays Big Bucks for weapons that only ever can work if aimed at his allies ?
Yet, the S-400 does not work against F-35s. This is rather obvious from the Syrian strikes by the Israelis. No-one is bubbling up with what the weaknesses of the S-400 are -- but the Israelis have figured on some work-arounds -- that's for sure.
Lmao
"in germany everyone keeps playing hot potato with defense issues, delaying decisions for decades"
meanwhile in france : we'll make a new carrier to replace the old one. it will be almost twice bigger and nuclear.
half of everyone : eh, sure i guess.
the other half : can't we just keep both ?
Waste of money Germans still will walk through Spineless France like everytime
@@theflourman6219 it’s ok. They have lots of spare subs now Australia don’t want them
Don't we already have enough other problems in the world. Why destroy the money in the military, what is more urgent is climate change and also overpopulation. Solutions have to be found and the money poured into it and not into the military. And as a German I can only say after two world wars and all the injustice that came into this world from our side, it is enough. Never again war. The world's problems have never been solved with weapons.
@@michaelkuschnefsky362 sorry for the sarcasm, but the ships are not _made_ out of money, as if 100€ bills were glued together to form the hull and never replaced. that money is not destroyed, it is the paycheck of thousands of workers, it maintains precious know-hows and industrial capabilities.
War will inevitably come back and the one who wins will be the one who is ready. like it or not, some countries _want_ war. when turkey decide to invade greek islands because long story short, they want more, someone will need to go and kick the crap out of them.
hugging trees and saying "please be nice" never stopped a column of tanks, 500kg guided warheads however...
@@Lapantouflemagic0, you don't need to spend a stupid amount of money to win wars. Example: Vietnam, Afghanistan. 9/11 was done with box cutters and knives. Also, do you know what stops tanks? Kill the people who are ordering the strikes. Kill the presidents, leaders, and army commanders. Next time a war happens, the first attack should be on the family of the president. Kill some of his children and take some away, war will be over in 2 days.
I always appreciate a nuanced and detailed look at something because issues are almost never as simple as they appear in headlines.
Thanks very much!
Same, I prefer his video than most as he is very measured.
Before coming across your _"never as simple"_ I wrote this as my comment:
*Do we know **_what we don't know_** about it all?*
I was background aware in a vague way Germany 'has issues' with its defence and getting folk to buy in.
In fact most Western states seem to have large and growing percentages of their populations who are very simplistic & niave in their grasp of geo-political reality.
I actually have mixed feelings about Ursula von der Layen sacking an expert Air General. On the one hand he should be the SME. On the other anyone who knows theior history knows Lockheed sold Germany F104 Starfighters not because it was good (it was a deathtrap) but because Lockheed bribed senior Luftwaffe & Political players.
And don't forget who builds the F35.
Now here's a dimension not picked up in the Video
The USA has slashed its F35 orders. Its buying more uprated F15s instead. Why? Partly cost F35 are roughly three times as expensive to maintain. But more worryingly, because F15s are apparently *much* more reliable.
As the Royal Navy what they think about F35 delivery schedules for instance.
And you might get sounded out would Germany like to buy a couple of undersized aircraft carriers designed for a plane which barely works.
@@Farweasel Yes, but again, I got to learn that even the Starfighter desaster itself wasn´t as easy or clear cut as hindsight or tabloid headlines suggests. The F-104 actually wasn´t a bad plane at all. It was the F-104G variant that had issues, for some specifically german problems: The F-104 was a dedicated interceptor, but germany wanted, again, the egg-laying-wool-milk-pig, and demanded the thing be stuffed with gadgets to become a multirole fighter AND attack-bomber. Then they added some more european gadgets to the american platform, that were not 100% compatible. Then they had a sophisticated, delicate racing-car of a plane, but not enough hangars, so they left them to rot out on the tarmac like some old tractor. And finally, the training of both air- and ground crews was too limited. And it was this complete layer-cake of tossups that led to 1/3 of the F-104Gs hitting the dirt. The F-104 in and of itself really was a fabulous plane, with an accident ratio well within the range of contemporary fighters. The Luftwaffe-F104Gs sucked. Big time.
Just take some old Nuke-Tornados, trench them with some anti-rust agent and put them into a glas-box with a sign "Break glas at Defcon 2"
I like this idea 🤣
I kind of like that. Nukes are the best deterrent of all, and cost-effective, you only need a few of them and the ability to deliver, delivered just one and your enemy is terrified that you can do that.
Remember the west German boy who flew his Cessna 150 and landed at the Kremlin in the midst of the Cold War? That was funny.
Nuke all the hummies!!!
@UCx64e7lDY8azYXWLARZSqpw They have uranium ore and enrichment facilities and almost a breeder reactor. These days its not that hard to make a bomb.
@@steveperreira5850
Surprised that thing could take off carrying the weight of his massive balls
Too expensive for Germany’s annual defense budget of like €3,000.
@@looinrims *3
same for spain, our goverment hates the country
@@bryburiya2709 0.30
@@phantom4E2 Spending more money on welfare and things that actually improve people’s lives instead of massive military spending when they’re already backed up by nato doesn’t mean they hate the country
Your govt love your country. Buy less weapons, save them for welfare, let the Americans do the dirty works. That is what we Chinese dream of , but you are complaining about that.
Meanwhile in Finland. “Here are parameters for test program, send one of each western models and well have some war games.” 6 months later “Ok, F-35 won, send 64 of those.”
"Murican Bismark isn't real, he can't hurt you."
Murican Bismark: 2:27
So...Nicholas Cage?
???????????
@@protonneutron9046 his outfit I guess
its the Bismark Lockheed salesman chad vs the Bismark german defense ministry virgin
@@derlasercrafterwally4342 He said "Y'all".
As a GI stationed in Germany in the early 90's with a multi-system TV, I can testify to the fact that Germans have a sense of humor.
Compared to Russians, Germans are fucking hilarious.
They definitely are funny.
Reminds me of what Robin Williams said - "Why are there no German comedians? They killed all of the funny people..." He did have a bit of a dark side at times.
@Tdan Kendros When the theme is about humor, and someone strolls in saying how "something else" is better elsewhere that isn't humor.
For the record, it is opinionates and subjective which country women are better looking. While I do admit that Russian females are beautiful, my own country's females are beautiful too, as well as females in other countries too. Some do not have that many beautiful females.
@Tdan Kendros Yes maybe hotter, but colder! I would go for a scandinavian having the choice between all three,
It's scary how similar Germany's and Canada's situation is with regards to military procurement.
Canada is protected by the USA. They do not need a military… Germany is pretty close to that with US military bases in Germany…
Exactly right.
@@jasonpeters6600 what has that have to do with military procurement? and Canada's likeness to Germany? and imo Canada does have a need for a military but that's just my opinion.
@@Canada-_ now your just being naive.. neither Canada nor Germany need 5 th gen fighters, they are already protected by them… try to attack Canada, and see who retaliates first, Canada or USA…
@@jasonpeters6600 ahh, well I don't disagree thus why Canada dropped the F-35 and are looking at late 4th gen fighters, and again not here to talk about Defense agreements here to talk about military Aviation cause its cool as shit. Thx
The only thing more expensive than winning a war is losing one.
Excellent point
You think they would know.
really, why is germany's economy a powerhouse after losing two consecutive wars then? the only thing more expensive than winning a war is preparing like it is going to be like the last one and having to conclude after 40+ years that it is not coming. We are discussing a piloted plane that is already obsolete. Ever heard of drones? Perhaps ask the armenians how their superior tank force got annihilated by essentially RC planes. Good luck with your "last war"-doctrine
@@Belisarius277 Germany's economy was a wreck after the First World War, leading to the rise of Nazis. Germany was completely destroyed after the Second World War, but this time it was built back up again afterwards by the West and Soviets to serve their own purpose. So the answer to your first question would be "Because the victors wishes it so."
Piloted planes are not obsolete. The Armenians screwed up by not investing heavier on air defense systems, which was also relevant in "last wars."
@@Belisarius277 I'm guessing you have never heard of the Marshall Plan. As the resident expert, I would expect you to be at least somewhat familiar with the fundamentals of the topics you discuss.
Drones? It's that easy, huh? Just say "drones" and you magically win! Do some research on where we are with drones before you make comments.
The F-35 clearly isn't over-engineered enough for Germany.
Because German relationship with Russia is good with pipeline buying Russia oil
@@looinrims The Craptor ? No more produced, with good reasons for that...
@@looinrims F-35 is even worse; needs to be protected by an entire fleet of real fighters... and the programm will cost overall 1 trillion and half $. The biggest scandal in the history of U.S.A. !
@@felix25ize overall cost mate, n the expensive sensor bla bla..so its not suprise the cost so high. But at the end of the day, every nation buy a fighter based on their doctrine and budget
@@amerularif230 Yes, but they can buy good or bad fighters; btw, F-35 is not a good fighter, not even a real fighter.
F-35 asks the F-22: "Does this stealth treatment make my ass look big?"
Thick thighs- and stealth- save lives.
Fat Amy isn't ashamed.
Ask f15x or new typhoons
Stealth is so 20th century. If you can see,touch or hear it then you can track it. Use scrambling and electronic warfare. Create a big electronic black hole and you can fly a B52 unseen.
Electronic "window".
F22: No, your VTOL engines make you fat, draggy and unmanouvreable, but it's not your fault. You are just a bad design.
Think the issue is the Germans hate the idea of buying or relying on foreign technology, especially if such has to come from the US , Uk , or god forbid from France ,
Hahaha good one! Specially the last part
Rafale is amazing.
Yes, except their current fighters are joint European designs....Eurofighter Typhoon and Panavia Tornado.
No Germany is actually strictly allied with France. Germany don’t buy F 35 because don’t want irritate France.
@@aalb1873 France is part of NATO. What year are you living in?
US: "So, are you in or are you out for the F-35?"
Germany: "Let me sink about it....let me sink....let me ..."
Reminds me of an radio exchange between a sinking English mechant vessel and the German coast guard:
Merchant vessel: "We are sinking! We are sinking! Over!"
German coast guard: "Zis is ze Coast Guard. Vat are you sinking about? Over."
@@quantum340 Yes, I remember that funny commercial.
@@quantum340 Did you see the one with the Germanic-looking nuclear family of four in their car, foot-tapping to a radio song with lyrics that are unrepeatable here? It's fantastic.
@@michaelhart7569 Alas, I do not know that one.
"A check list of political buzzword Bingo." What a great phrase.
he is just polite, it actually is "bullshit bingo"
political correctness in short
The Luftwaffe was still using the F-104 for test purposes until 22 May 1991. So Germany is a little different with its aircraft purchases.
we got leopard tank we got puma ifv which do ya want
Also F-4’s until 2010. To be fair the F-104 was upgraded for the Germans and had AIM-7 missiles but yeah, Germany has always had a fairly old Air Force but good ground based air defences.
IMO, there is no replacement for 104 for Germany. It was stupid dangerous to pilots, but amazing as an interceptor.
@@nunyabidness3075 Kelly Johnson was always pushing the envelope....
But they were not used for other things. We got Tornados, Phantoms and Mig 29s before we moved to the Eurofighter (what is a ugly bird) :D Why no F-35? It had no good press, it's a single engine plane and we also like to design our own stuff like we did with the EF, Tornado and Tiger helicopter.
they’re gonna bring back the ME-262
I'll buy one.
Thats where the US and the world got the jet engine from!!!
@@patrickjones1061 no not really, the us and the Brits were already working on the jet engines
@@cakeman7364 Oh, really...
What US or British manufacturers were working on jet engines, before they encountered the ME-262?
And why bother with launching operation Paperclip then?
@@marcherbst4041since the German were the first to implement the jet fighter successfully, yes the us and UK were first but the engines were very primitive
Great commentary-thanks so much Chris!
I love these videos, learning about luftwaffe politics is a welcome break from the RAF budget stuff im used to. Keep them coming!
Thanks !
@William Mulvaney Atomwaffen means Nuclear Weapons.
@William Mulvaney You write it together as "Atomwaffen" not sepearted.
Lmao
@William Mulvaney, unless you're in Belgium, then it's AtomWaffle!
Germany is waiting for development to be completed on the Messerschmitt 2.0
That would be great.
Will they finish the job before the war start?
I support a Messerschimitt Me262 2.0
I think I prefer the Germans being reluctant to take military decisions...
We need a good Groundattacker so we need an Stuka-Update 💪
I think the ME-262 is still a beautiful, awesome fighter design! A design that was/is light years ahead of its time! Give me a couple of the most powerful turbo fan jet engines with thrust vector vectoring that it can handle, 4 sidewinders, a brrrrt gun, a cannon and I'd be set.
The Me 262 wasn't "light years" ahead of its time. Every allied nation had a Jet fighter.
The P-80 Shooting Star specifically was a superior aircraft compared to the Me 262
clearly Joshua , yep, of course, everyone had jets ...right. christ im getting tired of this western aura of superiority. Yes you wont the war , but you might at least admit in terms of tech Germany was way ahead in so many areas
@@WaukWarrior360 American reports literally call the 262 equal,if not superior to the p80
@@darthsaren6519 I don't have to "admit that Germany was ahead in tech in so many areas" because they weren't.
They had good glass optics, made good standardized bunkers, synthetic fuels etc which I will admit. But in most other areas their reputation has been vastly overstated
@@crabbyjungle5670 There's literally no American reports saying the Me-262 was superior or even equal to the P-80.
2.30 - as they say, the German sense of humour is no laughing matter:)
The Eurofighter might cost more than the F-35 option, but the difference is that the money is spent domestically and it maintains domestic technological skills and industrial capability. Also, maintaining a single aircraft instead of two reduces the operational costs. Sometimes, those reasons make it worth paying more.
The Eurofigher is going to be replaced in the 2040s by the FCAS (at least this is the current plan). A F-35 purchase would jeopardize the FCAS program, because it is too capable to get replaced in 20 years.
The Eurofighter however needs the FCAS program, because a non stealth aircraft will be unusable in 20 years.
They always had more than one aircraft type, they had Tornados and F-4s in the past, the F-4 was replaced by the Eurofighter. Only one fighter is not a good idea, if the aircraft is grounded because of technical reasons (which can happen) you loose the complete fleet.
You miss that the Eurofighter and the F-35 are not equals and generations apart.
Some are kind of afraid of hidden kill-switches in their planes. Be it small weakened part of electronics on planes sold abroad or programmed one, reason to fear such is why _some_ countries are out of the race (here locally).
and foreign country´s would get an inferior F35 compared to US
@@RaGeAlucard yes, but export versions are often inferior, the same with German subs .
The export F-35 is still a capable aircraft.
Germans: secretly making the flying Bismarck😎
Space Battleship Yamato has entered the chat.
the flying ratte
In which case they will achieve nothing and get shot down.
@@davidmacdonald1695 u must be fun at parties
@@davidmacdonald1695 well if you use the ship bismark as benchmark for that statement the ship blowed the flagship of the british navy up (hms hood) a naval country that where superior on the seas for centurys and got killed in a unwinnable battle vs hundreds of planes and a full fleet in a hunt for days
and the biggest archivment the ship bismark was important enought to get a own sabaton song
Nice job laying out the issues. Thank you for your perspective.
Looking back on this now is a good discussion in itself
Really excellent, comprehensive, and nuanced discussion of this topic! The Algorithm suggested your video and I am so glad to have stumbled across your content. Hopefully you also have content auf Deutsch.
You have earned a new subscriber!
7:25 “Now im going to be very clear..... alot of this is somewhat unclear. lol
Made my day haha
Greetings from Germany
Today its anouncing that Germany buy the Lockheed Martin F 35
Greetings Philipp
I appreciate how you can explain complex topics in a clear and concise way. Thank you.
Damn last time I was this early the luftwaffe still used messerschmitt and focker-wulfs.
Focke-Wulf best wulf.
messerschmitt is good shit
@@romanthenumeral9497 262 is cool.
109 isn't really my thing personally (that windshield looks awful)
But yeah messerschmitt overall is cool.
Only k 4 bf 109 is cool
@@luftwaffe8086 You mean F4? G2 is also cool.
Thank you. You laid this out very clearly. I'm English, but have lived in Germany for over 20 Years and now have my German Citizenship, so topics like this are very important to me.
Thank you very much, very happy to hear this
welcome to germany!
Also; good name
Funny enough that topics like this are totally unimportant for the average German :D
@@realQuiGon So you are this average guy - thanks.
Well, this aged poorly....
Surprise !
That salesman and buyer clip made my day
next: MAH pivots to Military Procurement Satire MPS
the clothing decision for the Luftwaffe desk jockey is even funnier. I swear my uncle has a similar green vest
The last time I was this early, the skies over Malta were still defended by three Gladiators
The last time I was this early, this joke was kind a fresh
and copious amounts of Pimms.
I always loved that story. It's like Ace Combat come to life!
..... and the German aircraft were sporting some extra markings. 😉
Maximus, Juba & Hagen?? Wow, you were early!!
I really enjoyed this discussion!
always informative, well researched and 360 view points of all subject matters presented. Well done, a pleasure to enjoy all your video's
I love the model airplanes behind you. I built so many when I was younger. Air Models website down below. Ok. Danke Schoen
Well-done and thanks. Military procurement in Canada is embarrassingly slow and non-decisive - and that’s being kind. The perspective on the German situation that you’ve provided gives me some balance, although little room for hope here in Canada.
why does canada need warplanes?
i'm of the mind that Canada should definitely go for the Gripen E/F for their next fighter, it is basically tailor made for them.
@@sifis172 for the same reason that Belgium, Netherlands and Portugal do because it's better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them
@William Mulvaney just ask the Australians what happen with the Emus, and those birds could not even fly
@William Mulvaney As far as cars go i never heard anyone complain about SAAB's even had a friend that bought what was to be the last generation of the SAAb 9-5 about 10-12 years ago, but when it comes to SAAB Aerospace the only thing they have to envy national companies like Dassault, Alenia, Lockheed Martin, Boeing or Sukhoi is the fact that the mother nations of those countries pump a lot more into defense than SAAB gets.
When it comes to the quality and performance of their equipment it's right up there with the best of them, plus as far as Canada is concerned the Gripen fits their requirements perfectly, a super cruise capable single engine multirole fighter that can be integrated into NORAD Systems and NATO (And really whatever system you want) with full sensor fusion as well as it being designed with low maintenance costs as well as low lifetime costs and it is designed for cold/arctic environments and climates, on top of that SAAB usually sweetens the pot with a couple of AWACS systems and a full technological transfer.
There are Swedish Gripens kicking around with Eurofighter, Rafale, F-35 and F-22 kill markings (Earned in various multilateral excericses) and as far as all reports go the Gripen is a great aircraft to fly and a scary one to fly against.
When in doubt compare the total cost of flight hour for each. Then check how much of that cost can be paid to home industry.
Well... this Video aged very well.
When I was in the Army, it was often said "A hasty, potentially bad decision is better than no decision." Yet when it comes to politics, I often think "No decision is always better than a hasty, potentially bad one." It seems Germany's dilemma combines both.
The German armed forces on a whole are a joke. It's a shame. We need a strong German military to help with NATO
@@lovablesnowman Explain that to our politicians... even the defense minister has no clue about millitary technology and the funny thing is thst there is litterally no capable alternative to our current government- so basically germany itself is in a dilemma...
It can be well explained, after the Second World War, militarism was removed from Germany by the Allies as best they could, as it was done with patriotism.
For the most part, there is only local patriotism for one's place/Federal state you live.
Anything that goes beyond that is quickly attacked.
And everything that goes in the direction of the military is also quickly tackled, e.g. the tiresome topic of drones...
Then there is a huge outcry why we would rather pay more money to get an unarmed drone instead of one with France etc. that can also be armed for less money.
The whole thing will get worse depending on the end of the year, the CDU (Merkel's party) has a lot of problems right now, scandals because of mask deals etc. and elected a chancellor candidate who is not good.
If things go badly, the Greens, who are very left-wing and actually hard against the military, might win this year.
Then even more money will be cut in the military and everything that goes in the direction of attack (missiles for helicopters, nuclear weapons, bombs etc.) will be blocked as much as possible.
At the moment, the Bundeswehr is simply the child that nobody wants, but we must have.
@@Janoip For being the leader of North Korea, you have remarkable interest in German politics.
@@Janoip which is total horseshit because the Bundeswehr was well funded and equipped throughout almost the entirety of the cold war. The g
West Germans had 12 mechanized divisions by 1989 ffs. The current state of the German armed forces has nothing to do with WW2 or German attitudes to the military. It's purely a political decision being made that Germany doesn't care about it's allies or the free world as a whole
They just looked at Lockheed Martin on the plane and was like: Nein not this again(F104 flashback)
How the f-35 is extremely surviveable
@@spartanx9293 the joke still stands
@@randomuser5443 not really it doesn't apply well to the f35
@@spartanx9293 bruh mate do you know what a joke is?
That 3% availability rate for Luftwaffe Eurofighter Typhoons means that they will have very low flight hours well into the future 🤣
Great video. It is great to have a nuanced and balanced discussion on defence issues. It is so difficult to have public discussions on all these issues in most Western countries. Not just Germany.
Wow. Just stumbled across your video. Absolutely loved it.
Finland got its final offers from all manufacturers yesterday (Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, BAE, Dassault, Saab), and I think I've heard that exact same F-35 sales pitch myself. The aim is to procure around 64 fighters for €10 billion.
When the Communists coming rolling into town billions will seem like pocket change.
@@bighands69 Well the last time the communists tried to invade Finland, well...it didn't go exactly as planed to say the least...
@@shi01
And what if they are flying over head?
You have great videos. Full of awesome information and very entertaining. I always wondered where you got those model aircraft in the back ground. Keep up the great work!
As a Texan I appreciate the "y'all".
You’re an embarrassment…
That was a nice touch! I had to applaud the 'y'all' and im not a southerner!
Such a difficult topic in Germany. You did a great job giving an overview! Thank you.
Post-Traumatic Starfighter Disorder flashbacks ?
That's what you get for using an interceptor as a fighter bomber they honestly would have been better off buying f-105s
They don't want to jeopardize the FCAS program.
A modern fighter like the F-35 would make this program almost unnecessary, and would lead to a loss of skills and knowledge in the European fighter industry. So they have to buy something obsolete like the F-18 which is only usable for 20 or 25 years (with restrictions in use, because no stealth) to participate on the FCAS program which is planned to replace Eurofighters and the F-18 in the 2040s.
The F-18 in Germany is not purchased as an interceptor, but as a bomber, and a bomber for operation in enemy territory is only usable on paper if it has no stealth today, but this is probably wanted by the decision makers. They also castrated the Eurofighters by not equipping it with CFTs to avoid they have to take more responsibilities.
@@simonm1447 so they want to have a completely outclassed Air Force for the next 20 years just because they don't want to swallow their pride they can still work on fcas anyways and have the f-35 supplement whatever they design
@@spartanx9293 Yes. They also castrated the German tranche 3 Eurofighters by removing the capability of carrying CFTs, which would have been standard.
They don't want a very capable air force, because they don't want to take too much responsibilities outside the homeland defense.
@@simonm1447 why would they remove cfts unless it's affecting the aerodynamics of the aircraft which they by definition shouldn't. I don't see the issue I feel like it's just going to hurt the design in the long run
You kept me captivated for 23 mins subscribed. Ps spent 1980s in RAF mostly working with Tornado GM/TFR, its kind of nice that the old kite is still working, it wasn't new back then, probably 15 years old, still I'm sure it has been updated over the last 4 decades.
Apparently the German tornado fleet is in a right mess, many planes are not air worthy and parts are becoming hard to come by.
@@damedusa5107 It's getting to be 50 years old. Continuing to try and use them would be like using bolt actions in a cold war battlefield. It's not a modern weapon.
@@mattheww.6232 the uk fleet was in good condition even at retirement due to hood maintenance but due to budget issues the Germans haven’t been able to maintain all the fleet as well as they would like. So definitely needs replacement. Would say even now, it’s still an excellent low level bomber as it’s a specialised plane for that role. Multiroles are always compromises.
Luckily the RAAF had smart decision makers when it came to Hornet/F-111 replacement. They were originally going all F-35, but delays to the programme forced the buy of 24 F/A-18F's. 12 of those were wired for but not with ECM capabilities. Then there was the sudden aquistion of 12 E/A-18G's, with 11 still in service. With Australian industry in the US supply chain for both these aircraft, the RAAF is in a fairly good position.
Very very good reporting, comments and opinion. Very professional 😊👍
Your attempt at a Texas accent was..... disturbing, yet hilarious. I'm not sure if I want you to promise to never do that again, or do it continuously in every video from now on.
Okay, it's not just me then.
Hearing Chris say Y'all was unsettling ;D
So you now can imagine the feelings of a german in hollywood Films? Disgusting.
It's as hilarious as Brad Pitt's Italian accent in Inglourious Basterds.
The issue is Lockheed Martin is headquartered in Maryland
100% agree lol
Great video. There's so much more nuance and political context that I wasn't aware of before, it's a very interesting topic for sure.
I enjoy and am subscribed to your channel and appreciate the good work you do to make good content and earn your living......thanks, fm
Great videos and channel!
0:06 , 0:27 , 12:51 -- Tornado looks so beefy and awesome with the Luftwaffe insignia!
Everything looks better in Luftwaffe
@@HeliRy Good thing it was nice it was the last thing those poles saw
Tornado performed badly during the Gulf War
@@misterbig9025 How so? From what i understood it did quite well attacking airfields?
Okay die "Golf Handicap"-Angabe hat mich aufm falschen Fuss erwischt, gut gemacht
EDIT: "Stammtisch-Chairman", ich lach mich tot, richtig nice
@DGAF You're on the right track. Also, I keep remembering that some countries thought they could kind of hold off oin defense spending and preparedness. They sort of figured the other country would carry the ball for them--then they found out the other guy wasn't as prepared as they counted on.
Well Done! There are often those who think these decisions are:"cut and dry" and they never are due to politics. I like the way you broke down the issues. Take care.
Since they buy Russian gas, ally with Putin. Problem solved.
The issue itself seems very cut and dry. The only complexity is politics, which is a cancer on every decision making process.
This was very interesting, as just today the Finnish Air Force got their bids in from all the manufacturers of the candidates for the replacement of the F/A-18 Hornet, including the F-35, Typhoon and the Super Hornet. Unfortunately, for the moment at least, all the details of the bids (such as the number of aircraft) are kept secret from the general public.
The competition is for 64 aircraft though some manufacturers may have to offer less to meet the $11.7bn budget cap, Saab has actually offered more, saying it will throw in a couple of GlobalEye AEW aircraft likely as they are the budget option. I understand all the aircraft the passed the Finnish Airforce combat trials with the exception of the F-35 which failed to be combat ready for a couple of the sorties, though Lockheed are pointing to the F-35 being in service with Norway dealing with the cold (they have arctic modifications including a parachute brake). Eurofighter has offered industrial participation and workshare on planned upgrades over the next decade while Boeing is touting the Super Hornet having 60% parts commonality with the retiring Hornets meaning easier logistics introduction/training. We know both the american submissions are over budget (as they have to get Senate approval for foreign sales and the contract values are published), with the F-35 at $14.7bn (25% over budget) and the Super Hornet at $12.7bn (8% over budget).
Curious, why isn't Rafale in the list too?
@@watcherzero5256 I think you need to wait for the number first before say it. The Saab offer never say it will be 64 aircraft and GlobalEye AEW. It just say unknown number of aircraft and GlobalEye AEW. We know by tomorrow when they reported. Most Likely less then 64 aircrafts because the GlobalEye AEW is very expensive. From Finnish news, the offer for the super Hornet is 64 aircraft for 10.9 bn.
@@jimc1654 Super Hornet bid is 10.9bn Euro which is more in US dollars (Programme caps are 9bn Euro for aircraft and 1bn Euro for munitions, equipment and spares), the 64 aircraft is 50 Hornets and 14 Growler variants. Saab has confirmed its offer was 64 Gripen E and two Globaleye with final assembly in country and domestic engine manufacture and maintenance.
@@watcherzero5256 The Saab offer do look good but We will see the level of final assembly they are going to have in country. However, there no domestics engine manufacture since its an US engine. Mostly just domestic maintenance of the engine.
Mein neue Favorite video! LOL I really loved the seller-buyer characterization. Thanks for all your videos. Hope you become the Doug DeMuro of aviation, at least you look a bit alike :D Thanks
I really appreciate the thoughtfulness that you put into your work. You deliver the information with clarity and reason... And those are two things that our world could use a lot more of (especially here in the U.S.). Anywho, thank you for creating such genuinely thoughtful content, and please keep up the great work. The world needs information sources like you! Also, I'm sorry I haven't been able to contribute any money to your channel, but I hope to do so soon.
As of Dec 2022, Germany has bought $8 Billion worth of F-35s.
on the f35's price, it also depends highly on what variant you buy, like the standard A non-VTOL or STOL one is from what I understand, quite cheaper than the more exotic ones
Airforce F-35A is the cheapest, then the Navy F-35C is next and the Marines F-35B is the most expensive.
Yes. The A model has a fly a way cost of less then 85 million, about 20 million less then the Eurofighter, and is still dropping. The only real issue is cost per flight hour being about double that of the F16. That is going down, though.
@@johnabuick Germany would have no use for the c or b versions they don't have carriers
@@spartanx9293 Singapore has no carriers, but ordered B models
@@jasonpeacock9735 It saves space for Singapore they don't have a whole lot of land
@Military Aviation History I rally enjoy these videos. Could you do more of them for other nations as well?
Thank you for your insight!
Here in Canada, we still haven't made a decision about the F 35. Part of the debate revolves around the single engine, which may pose an issue in the Arctic. It's a very complex weapons platform and expensive too.
Avro Arrow
that single engine happens to be the most reliabl/Tech-advanced/Powerful engine mounted on any fighter, if THE US NAVY IS OKAY WITH THEM as their Carrier fighter, I'd say the engines Damn reliable!
@@scottsauritch3216 I'm sure they have very high reliability. It's a debate which the RCAF is currently engaged in and relates to expense. I've flown a lot in helicopters. Their engines are very reliable, but when they fail, you crash. Our military is considering other options which may fit our needs for national defense.
@@JeffLeChefski The question comes down to whether you'd rather have 80 gen 4+ that aren't compatable with US allies in a fight or 65 Gen 5 aircraft that can network right in with our system. That's a question only you guys can answer, but the US is banking 100% that fewer fighters with better stealth tech is the better move. 100 F18 super hornets vs 50 F35's is a fight likely to go to the smaller force.
@@tonymorris4335 Yes very true. The Americans are maintaining fleets of both....each has an ideal role.
I freaking love the 'salesman' scene
I wish you could do more of these types of videos for other modern military aviation subjects, they are so informative
Ha! I was wishing this dude was American so he would deconstruct the whack stuff we do.
Just a thought: start with America’s icebreaker story. It’s a heartbreaker.
JoeOvercoat What story is this?
"BERLIN, March 14 (2022) - Germany will buy 35 U.S. F-35 fighter jets to replace its ageing Tornado" (Reuters)
Well done video! A couple things to think about:
1. Everything is mission dependent.
2. Stealth only works until the enemy knows you are there.
3. Stealth aircraft sacrifice weapons load for stealth, since most weapons need to be internal.
4. A mixed fleet of a squadron of stealth and a couple squadrons of missile trucks will do better than purely one or the other.
I'm curious why other in production aircraft, like the F15, are not being considered?
The political climate in Germany makes it impossible to make decisions based on a military perspective.
@Rafael Acosta How about some LGBT?
clearly need some brightly colored specimens in the government.
@@Jack-he8jv This thread is hysterical! i think we may have gotten slightly off topic from the OP, but it was worth it! Me thinks my country is leading the way with the most eccentric, but inept Bureaucrats money can buy!
Thanks for the analysis of the German situation.. very informative.
Germany has plans to unveil an😁 updated version of the ME262.
ham wa da
How the turn tables have turned
In the U.S., we call "Passing it along", "Kicking the Can Down the Road".
@MrLewisbate why do you have to be like that? If you don't have anything good to say don't say it.
Or passing the buck...
We call it cowardice.
If you build and buy products made in your own country, you keep the taxes from all the transactions and wages, etc. So then unit cost is less overall
ever seen anything marked "Made in China"
And you don't have to ask Lockheed every fcking time for regular or even minor maitenance....
Or your R&D costs and capabilities will make the product worse but much more expensive than a foreign product made in high numbers by highly experienced companies.
This mercantilistic approach in a globalized economy seems implausible.
First you have to KNOW, HOW to build it.
@@james3414 it's just a numbers game most of the things that say made in c being not China are in fact designed in hand still made in china, USA is losing it's grip and China winning face the fact
"Germany could do more but it doesn't really want to" combined with the image of that dude doing a very half-hearted crawl through the sand is just... *mwah* chef's kiss
Some things can change quickly.
I would be interested to see what kind of fighter Germany would develop if they had the time to design one from the ground up.
It has been a long time since they had a home grown fighter no?
Like the Eurofighter you mean?
@@comsubpac I assume he means a purely domestic design.
@Albert Fels except France has no stake in the Eurofighter.
@Albert Fels They don't though. Germany and France both own 10,9 % of the shares.
Lol goes through a British, Irish and weird Canadian accents with a random ya'll 🤣 best part of video.
He still has that German D in place of the TH sound though. I'm not knocking his content at all. I can't say "boot" without sounding like a Texan, no matter how hard I try. 😂
@@beefgoat80 *Vot* !?? Zis is pörfeckt englisch by Bismarck.
@@fatdad64able the umlaut is the cherry on top haha
@@beefgoat80 😂👍🏻
Pilots absolutely love the F-35. They get to come home in one piece. Enemy pilots are the ones not coming home. Having F-35's gives major pause to ANY enemy considering an invasion.
I checked out the models and they are not even overpriced as I expected. That is like the first non scammy sponsor I've seen on youtube.
you, together with Millennium 7* are so delightfully thorough, objective and insightful. Thank you for this!
Thanks for mentioning Millennium 7*. I didn't know his channel and I'm checking it now. Another treasure trove of great content!
@@KitKabinet yes it is a treasure trove of great content. And another treasure trove of great accents!
Time to restart the Messerschmitt factory and bring back the ME262, or you can give Merkel a pitchfork 🤣
Thanks for share!!!
Now release a new video. "Why Germany buys the F-35"
He did
Here in Canada it was explained to me: All the countries which do not embark on the original program will have to pay a lot more for the purchase of an F35 aircraft. Here are the eight international program partners - the US, UK, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Norway, Denmark and Canada
Other than the few that want new toys at DND, I'd sooner have my tax dollars spent on things that make a real difference to its citizens; heath care and our infrastructure. And this coming from a past flight instructor and one that went to the EAA in Oshkosh often.
@@achristian7015
What??
A government’s first priority is to protect the nation not free health care. I think we need a bigger military budget and a whole lot less social programs.
@@12floz67 What??? Did you poll everybody to ask?
@@12floz67 Protect the nation from what? I guess one would have to when you have your nose stuck in everybody elses business. Hell, the US has been in a war or conflict for 92% of their existance. You'd think they would be good at it (Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, etc.) But it is big business and as long as you can brain wash the masses you can continue selling them on the idea. By the way what happened to those "imaginary" Weapons of Mass Destruction that Americans were sold on? Never did find them.
Apart from Israel!!
I love your salesman role play!
Surprise, it just happened! :D
That was a good sales pitch. 😁👍
The fourth competitor is a heavily upgraded, jet-powered ME 109. The old warbird will have a new lease of life!
Would probably still be a better experience than the F-104 was
It might not do well in combat, but it will be looking fabolous
The ME 262 would be a better choice
@@marcusmaddenov2451 let's make a Me 363
@@vermas4654 me 464 when???
Very informative analysis. Whatever decision that the German government and people make regarding military procurement and engagement with its allies, I hope it will take into consideration a long-term view of military affairs, history, and will serve to deter future wars.
Si vis pacem, para bellum - It ain't just Roman, its bloody prudent
(If you want Peace prepare for War)
Or as Roosevelt put it 'Speak softly and carry a big stick'.
There was an excellent song (well maybe not musically but in terms of insight) by the 1960s band Groundhogs 'Thank Christ for the Bomb'.
Today there is a major problem that not having grown up under the threat of war, to too many it seems the best way not to get attacked is not to look threatening.
The reality is the opposite is true.
Excellent discussion about the politics involved. Well done.