The Death of the Tsundere | A Retrospective
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
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The tsundere is a well-known anime trope, that many people still love to this day. But something happened to it since its inception, and I want to talk about that.
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0:00 Intro
00:54 WebNovel
2:00 Origination
6:03 Gamification
11:05 Databasification
15:07 Hyperdatabasification
18:20 Outro 
Развлечения
In other words: the tsundere went from a character that started out hostile but slowly opened up as a love interest to just a love interest that is regularly obnoxious or even abusive and never stops being that. Not surprising that second type of character is often disliked.
Or you could say the character type of a Tsundere became a Tsundere?
no, you missed the entire point
@@Ngrizz4899
They're both trash. Tsunderes r only likeable when they're tsunderes without the bitchy side. The greatest crime of Urusei Yatsura and Evangelion is that they popularised this trash trope. Especially Urusei Yatsura. I can't stand that anime.
@@anonisnoone6125 Urusei Yatsura, Love Hina and everything Rumiko Takahashi has ever written deserve no better than the bottom end of a trash can.
@@anonisnoone6125i think they can work as being more hostile if they start out as an antagonist. So if they end up having to join the good guys, they'd have justification for their conflict. And i think there has to be more tangible conflicts between them. Like if they can't sorta have situation similar to halo 3 where when the arbiter leaves lord hood says he can't forgive them for what they've done but they have his thanks, then i think the source of the conflict will still be too soft. And the story should handle it as seriously as they did as well. Elites are cool wort wort space dinos but they glassed human planets, and almost drove humanity to extinction. And the pride of elites and the great schism they just went through no doubt also leaves some tension their way too, if not some still lingering feelings regarding their religion that drove them too genocide humanity. Its not a hatchet they can bury easy. Despite this they have to work together but both have hatred from being enemies in the past. Rather than them being allies from the start with no real good reason to not be at least nice to one another. In that case of course it just ends up as it being uncalled for and just being a jerk.
8:10 If being interested in a Tsundere is a self-inflicted, hard-mode version of a love interest that is more rewarding because of its difficulty, could Tsunderes be considered the Dark Souls of love interests?
get out
@@Lextoriaslmao
THERE'S THE DAMN DOOR 👉🚪
I feel like yanderes could also be the Dark Souls of love interests. You have to evade (dodge) interaction with other women, defend yourself if they attack you (parry and attack), and keep the yandere's interest (magic).
Not really; they are based on the idea that "you can't argue with women"
It's based off of the trope of being too immature to be honest along with women (like your mom or sister) beating you.
True tsundere hits do no real damage...
It's actually like those pets who TRY to be dangerous but end up being absolutely adorable and can't fool us...
for me the worst part of a tsundere character is how violent they are and how its played off as a joke
And that becomes their whole character
yup!@@ObiAlmighty
Same here. The only Tsundere that I like is Taiga from Toradora. She somehow managed to grow on me.
Remember, only men can be physically abusive
@@SleepySummer Because she is the old type of tsundere. She doesnt like Ryuuji at the start. She doesnt hate him either, he is just her target whenever she s angry or embarrassed over something about Kitamura.
And she is slowly falls for Ryuuji. The violence never really stops but for half of the story she is very much a bitch that attacks him verbally and physically just because.
There are still many old type Tsunderes the problem is that there are100 new ones for each old type.
Tohsaka Rin, Miorine Rembran, Makise Kurisu, Miko Iino, Misaka Mikoto.
I remember Digibro making a video on this some years ago that I really liked. It basically boiled down to the "Tsunderes started as actual characters who acted like this for a believable/possibly understandable reason and were meant to balance out the protagonist, but eventually became flanderized into the dumb, shallow trope that exists solely to tick a box that we all know and hate today."
Your whole angle of tying it back into the wider media sphere is certainly interesting and a hell of a lot more depressing than just a bunch of lazy, hack writers.
10:26 - 10:30
I recognize Rin Tohsaka, Taiga, Mai Sakurajima, and the blonde from Yamada and the 7 Witches.
Who are the others?
I think this is directly from (or referenced in) part 4 of Digibro’s series on The Asterisk War! It talks about tsunderes devolving into cliche and culminates with a complaint about how Yulis’s “dere is built directly into her tsun.”
@@realperson69 Yep.
There was also a comment that called it a level 3 cliche where lv.0 is the original, lv. 1 is the homage and not exactly a cliche yet, Lv.2 is where it becomes cliche and copies the Lv.1 because "it works" without understanding it, and Lv.3 is where people came up with the Lv.2 and copy that, flanderizing it into a shallow trope.
So we are in agreement. Noire and Uni rule because they are more than just their achatype have the lyrics of the song Sham Cold Girls:
[music]
Our complex fiery, fiery spirits surely wont ever dampen
No matter what, our words always sound harsh and thorny
But I am so sick of complaints They just make me want to cry or puke
I want to be prefect in front of you! Ohh
For example, the small truth of my heart
Please understand, I can't say how I feel. Oh yeaa
Even though I like you, I always say the opposite
I Know Your Mind and your true feelings, Oh yeaa
Just look deep in to my cold eyes to seek the answer of how I feel
Do You Know My Mind? Solve the password...!
Sham Cold Girls! Always having trouble being honest and straightforward
I like you more than anyone else!
Sham Cold Girls! I want us both to laugh together innocently
The ultimate Inside-Out Sister!
Although it is very difficult for me, I make serious efforts to try to make friends
I don't want to be a lonely fool
I feel Jealousy the closer I get to you
I want to always be strong like you. Ahh
For example, the two of us connecting by holding hands
I just can't understand why you'd want to do something so embarassing. Oh yeaa
We're stuck in a Loop when we try to express our feelings, and our Pride gets in the way
I Know Your Mind and your true feelings, Oh yeaa
I'm always trying to be so strong next to you
Do You Know My Mind? Solve the password..!
Sham Cold Girls! Why do we love the night?
Our contrary selves
Sham Cold Girls! Our cold exteriors betray our inner thoughts
In pain Inside-Out Sister!
[music]
Oh yeaa Even though I like you, I make excuses and say nothing
I Know Your Mind and your true feelings, Oh yeaa
Just look deep in to my cold eyes to seek the answer of how I feel
Do You Know My Mind? Solve the password...!
Sham Cold Girls! Always having trouble being honest and straightforward
I like you more than anyone else
Sham Cold Girls! I want us both to laugh together innocently
The ultimate Inside-Out Sister!!
[music]
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 Uhhhh what?
9:36 If we restrict the date range to around October 30, Google Trends shows us that the searches involving "tsundere" were associated with the terms "tsundere means", "magical love gentleman", and "questionable content". "Questionable Content" turns out to be a webcomic. After some pain trying to figure out which issue released on October 30, it turns out to be #1525, which contains both the words "magical love gentleman" and "tsundere" (the latter being written on a shirt). As such, I conclude that the spike in popularity stems from readers of this specific webcomic trying to figure out what the word means.
I found that webcomic, but I don't know enough about its popularity in 2009 to say that one issue would've caused a spike in the search results so big it wasn't topped for 6 years
@@Lextorias It definitely would have been enough, QC was one of the top webcomics of the time; when you said that date I instantly thought "Oh that's got to be Questionable Content," looked it up before checking the comments and sure enough found the same thing. At the time, it would have been the dam breaking between the anime nerds (who already would have known the word) and undefined-mass-of-webcomic-reader-nerds, many of whom would have had to look it up. Great catch @andrasfogarasi5014 !
I'd heard of it in spite of not reading any of the top web comics (unless Order of the Stick counted) so it must have been one of the more popular ones if not on the Penny Arcade level. I still wouldn't be able to identify it from the art but I had at least heard of it and there were a lot of obscure web comics back then and they were definitive internet culture in a way that must have shortly ended around then (I wouldn't have even recognised the term 'youtuber' at the time if it had even been coined, vlogger was more recognisable if anything was). @@Lextorias
@@Lextorias it was a pretty popular webcomic at the time, I would even go so far as to call it influential, but yeah even I have no idea how it could cause a spike like that.
@@BrookfieldRocks Be very careful with giving Jeph Jacques praise.
You did something very cool: took on a gargantuan subject that deserves its own university module (the death of narrative media) and approached it through a narrow subset of a cultural niche, in a way depriving yourself of additional views. But you did it in such a captivating way that even outsiders could connect to the wider theme. I studied anthropology and work in the media, and definitely miss a good read on the subject of media and symbolism, so, an additional thanks for the tip on 'The Language of New Media' - I'll have to order that!
Postmodernism coined new
I don't mostly IMO he just rambled on with rather poorly supported and questionable generalizations parroting a very common and but quite questionable assertion that somehow modern fiction is sooooo much worse then older stuff, when the reality is simply that we just tend to forget all the no effort crap and cringe tropes of yesteryear.
Like you can whine about modern media being formulaic or overly focused on certain genres, but so what, do you actually think we haven't had multiple cycles of that in the past dating back all the way into ancient times? I'm sorry to break this to you wannabe hipster academics put less talented writers producing voluminous knock offs of seminal or unique works and characters while losing almost all the nuance is NOT a new phenomenon nor does it herald something as moronically grandiose as "the death of narrative media"
@@Tk3997 I am sorry to break this to you but you missed the point. I would tell you to find out what the actual hypothesis is, but I have the strong suspicion you just want to feel superiour because of some weird complex, or why else would you attack people personally after misrepresenting their argument?
Excellent essay. It seems all art forms are going through a similar process, becoming "content" although the transformation seems different in different media. As a visual artist I've been struck by how social media has changed what people think art even is, part of opening the door for things like AI image generators.
"The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction" (1935), by Walter Benjamin
Alright pointed out , demand public to educate and think is a little late
Definition of art has been destroyed in the beginning of 20 century, now it's just the aftermath.
The world is only getting WORSE because of the old and greedy shitheads in charge of everything.
@@kogorun There never was a definition of Art, you know it when you see it.
I don't think Lum counts as a tsundere. Tsundere is never about being abusive, but rather the characters hiding their true feelings. The level of vocal offending commonly seen in anime and manga isn't even considered abusive in most Asian cultures, that is a western concept. Actually, in Takahashi's next long manga series, Ranma 1/2, the two main characters, Ranma and Akane, are both textbook tsundere, in modern definition. They're the real earlist iconic tsundere characters I can think of.
Urusei Yatsura has a "first" tsundere and it's Ataru, not Lum. His character is a fusion to two dominant tropes which influenced anime: tsundere and p3rv. With these, he is an unlikable, harsh person who likes too much girls. His character influence other Takahashi characters and relationship dynamics.
Ayukawa madoka
@@soulrio
Yeah if anything Lum could be a yandere
@@dokidoki5850 Madoka is a kimagure or a whimsical girl. Not sure if that's an archetype. But basically, she's the type of character who clearly has feelings for the main character but doesn't show it in a conventional way. Certainly not in the tsundere way where she beats her crush whenever she feels like it, tho she did it a few times. What I'm saying is, Madoka Ayukawa isn't a tsundere.
@@soulrio Exactly. Ataru qualifies more as a tsundere than Lum.
Worst part of the tsundere is the normalization of abusive behaviours for me. As someone who HAS been physically abused, it makes me really uncomfortable.
Abuse isn't being normalized through "modern" tsundere.
Nobody has witnessed so much as an uptick in unilateral female-on-male domestic violence in Japan since the trope was popularized. Literally the only people who could think that the "Tom and Jerry" shit they're watching in their anime is acceptable in real life, are people who have several other issues to begin with.
That includes the weebettes you're thinking of.
@@seg162 I think you are mixing it with the idea of slap-stick comedy. Tom and Jerry, heck even old Looney Tune cartoons drive off and over exaggerates their slap stick comedy. It's in a way, a satire of a scenario they are placed in. American media is completely different compared to Japan, they might have slap stick as well, but for sure not similar compared to America(since America loves irony). Looking at the history of cartoons, they were mostly used as propaganda and for sure their humor is way darker and are able to get away with a lot of references that would defiantly get you in trouble today. So in a way that's one of the reasons why slap stick humor in America is crazy with their physical satire punchlines.
With these Tssunderes today, they for sure do slap stick comedy(by the minimum effort). But what is the punchline? That the guy likes the girl? Her emotions being ridiculous? That he's not like the other guys? He's weak for being nice? I'm not even sure what their motivation for hitting a guy in the face besides "she just likes him, but she's too shy." The only example I could give that is a good slapstick Tssundere is from Nichijou where they actually make fun of the trope but raising its extreme hits to 200. But for these other animes, they don't do extremes and just throw hands for no better reason. At that point, it just looks like they're physically(and even mentally) abusing their crush. Abuse can come from anywhere and is found throughout history, they're just whitewashed in stories/they're not the main plot in events/gaslit that they never happened.
@@Eaten_Fishnuggets The nuanced differences between American and tsundere-centric Japanese slapstick, or the alleged "lack of punchline" in the latter, isn't relevant to my point.
@@seg162 You think you could elaborate a little more? Would like to hear your thoughts on why not. My standpoint here is I agree with Moondust. Tssunderes hitting their crush for no reason became such a cliché that it looks like they're normalising abuse.
Fiction isn't "normalizing" shit. This mindset of yiurs that fiction somehow has power over our values is what's actually wrong with how people consume media.
This is something that chapters 47-48-49 of 100 girlfriends were interestingly discussing
Since the series deconstructs the tropes of each character and tries to reconstruct them in its own way to see why and how they click
These 3 chapters take Karane, a character who's an extreme version of the typical Tsundere and take away her tsundere-ness, to see why these characters even mattered, and things go well for the rest of the girls but not for some who admit that the tsundere characteristics were endearing to them.
One of my favorite lines from these chapters is when Rentarou tells karane that he'd be ok with her being a non-tsundere if she likes that, but he won't be ok if she's doing it because she hates being a tsundere.
The point made is that so often nowadays in media characters are made one way to fit an archetype, and only there because that's an expectation people have, and a way to spark "best girl" discussions and merch sales, but never was it about writing actually compelling characters, people analyzed these characters as an archetype, not as a character, and Rentarou acknowledging that Karane should be what she wants to be not because she has to fit a specific stereotype but because that personality fits her belief and is very much a part of her, I think that's the point.
We see her non-tsundere self to be nothing but a regular old girl with nothing interesting under the surface, and that, if anything, speaks loudly about how stereotypes are the 95% of a character's worth in anime/mangas nowadays
Edit: I'm sure no one is reading this considering it's a discussion about 100 girlfriends but hey I'll say what I have to say since no one else did
Makes sense. I like the idea behind the book
A regular girl is great anyway. Plenty of compelling stories with regular girls.
Karane is one of my favorite Tsundere of all time. Even as a manga reader, she's still up there on my own 100GF Tier list.
well damn now I'm gonna have to read 100 girlfriends.
@@aguyontheinternet8436 it's highly recommended, but do note that the first 23ish chapters are a little generic, but still have good moments here and there, it gets really good after that point I'd say
We could always split the definitions like this
Clasic tsundere: a character (often female) who starts off cold and not in love with their crush but slowly warms up to their crush
Modern tsundere: a character (often female) that is dere-dere for the MC but doesn't like expressing so instead acts abuses him (often physically) but slowly becomes more comfortable expressing their emotions around their crush. this character calling their crush an idiot (baka) at least once is a requirement.
You have to use more time-proof labels. The execution of "tsundere" shifted before, and it'll possibly shift again.
Ironically enough, the Visual Novel Database, a library for visual novels, actually separates the terms that way. The classic definition is basically the same, but the modern definition is that instead of a gradual shift from "tsun" to "dere", the character switches between them depending on the situation.
My personal definition goes along the lines of classic tsundere is when you need to go through a prickly shell of poisonous spikes to get to the delicious and juicy filling while modern tsundere is being obnoxious and violent towards the MC for obnoxiousness' and violence's sake.
This is why I love male tsundere’s so much, you can’t have them be violent to their love interest like female ones get to be nowadays cuz people tend to see it for what it is.
EXACTLY. This is why I hated female tsunderes so much as a child. It is abuse and inexcusable. For me, it started with Love Hina and Misty from Pokemon until it has become an open contempt for almost all female tsunderes. It was always wrong and mean to my young mind. If a child can understand this, why tf did people making tsundere characters not??? To this day, I only like 1 female tsundere.
Male tsunderes by contrast are so goddamn adorable, which is what mangakas don't typically want their men to be. The IRONY.
@@hitsugatatsuro9978 I loved Love Hina but at some point Naru beating up Keitaro because no reason got real old and real boring, I would've loved if at some point he just straight up no sold her "tsun-isms" because "okay this shit is getting stale, girl" (the dude manned up somewhat by the end but even then no one even remotely sane tolerates this nonsense forever).
I like the idea behind classic tsundere (the initial adversity and opening up) because it's a pretty darn good trope in itself but when you've seen enough "I'mma punch you and call you baka for no reason", which is what most modern tsundere boils down to, it gets pretty insufferable. Then again, there's a whole market of "step on me, mommy" aficionados so guess we're stuck with it being the way it is because it sells.
I recently talked with a friend of mine about how Taiga in Toradora is “not a real tsundere” I based that idea on her interactions with Kitamura who she supposedly loved, in contrast to her interactions with Ryuji, and then add on that as the story developed she became a lot sweeter on Ryuji, basically when she fell for him. My understanding of tsundere was the modern version of it, where characters treat the person they like coldly. This video kinda blew my mind since now it feels like Taiga is actually more along the lines of the original narrative tsundere.
I think the medium of the story has quite a large impact on things as well. Take a play like "The Taming of the Shrew". Totally a Tsundere story. Since it's done in a single sitting, the character actually changes from tsuntsun to deredere by the end. Manga and anime though, don't end in one sitting. They can go on for years, and in that time new audience members may join in. If you've already transtioned your tsundere, how are new readers going to know how she started and what her deal is? It's similar to the problem that Western superhero comics have. Any issue could be a new reader's first, so you need to regularly reset to a status quo so new readers can have a jumping on/catch up point. For long running manga with a romance angle, the perma *dere is the equivalent of the status quo reset for new readers. Kuuderes are always aloof, danderes never speak up, tsunderes always hide their feelings with yelling and/or violence, and yanderes never get therapy.
This made me realise that I've been subconsciously separating tsundere characters as either 'story-based' or 'traits-based' tsunderes for a very long time now
Although they are not as violent as some others Asuna (SAO) and Kurisu (Steins Gate) are both good examples of 'true tsunderes'
Kurisu is my favourite tsundere from all the anime. And that's precisely what gets me - you don't have to be violent, rude and obnoxious to be a tsundere!
Is revy from Black Lagoon a Tsundere
@@aneboonchuy3033 In my opinion, yes. And her harshness and lack of trust is absolutely justified by the story and context, while her gentler side is a part of character development. It's a great kind of tsundere.
@@aneboonchuy3033revy is a tsundere in the same way a tomato is a fruit, you wouldn't put tomatoes in a fruit salad, you wouldn't put revy with "classic" tsunderes.
@@Eddison33 I'd agree, Revy definitely fits the bill. There are no unspoken feelings for Rock in the beginning, she straight up doesn't like him. That develops very gradually and comes along as a side consequence of her developing as a character. probably one of the best examples out there.
I've been recognizing this for the past decade or more, but I called it "anime disappearing up its own ass." Almost every new anime I watched was like a collection of _references to older anime_ strung together.
Thats modern entertainment in a nut shell. I've also seen that "up its own ass" term used in some other essay years ago to describe everything becoming first referential, then evolving into self reference, and then self referencing its own self references. I think Homestuck was the example they used. When zoomed out, Millennials don't really have much to define their cultural identity. Gen Z has almost nothing. Gen A is not even old enough to realize nor care about a generational identity; and its possible they never will. And its even weirder when you consider Gen X fought incredibly hard to make sure the icons of their generation weren't easily forgotten.
@@freelancerthe2561 Yes, it's basically pop culture devouring itself in an ouroboros, endlessly regurgitating the same few things over and over again back into its own mouth. But in this case I thought it was more appropriate to say it was going up the _other_ end, because it feels like it started out by sniffing its own ass with a few references, then kept on crawling up deeper and deeper until it couldn't get back out, because everything had become a meta-reference or joke about some other piece of media, and it seems like no one even _knows_ how to create anything new anymore.
I blame Postmodernism and Hipsterism and the trend of too cool for school ironic detachment from everything, with people being terrified of appearing earnest or actually caring about things because it was just so much cooler to act like you didn't care and were too smart to get emotionally caught up in anything, so nothing could hurt you if you didn't care. It turned everything into an ironic joke, then a meta-reference, then a reference to the joke, until nothing meant _anything_ anymore.
@@AaronLitz KINDA SAD BUT ALOS FUNNY COZ I ACCTUALLY LIKE ANIME MANILY BC OF ITS ORIGINALITY; like the creativity, tho i i guess im very picky with what anime i watch so yea
@@giftzwerg7345 I really like anime too. _Good_ anime. But it seems like anymore a lot of younger Americans will just watch any old crappy Japanese cartoon simply _because_ it's Japanese, regardless of its quality. Being picky in what you watch is good.
I'm probably spoiled though, since back in my day (Ha! Old man in my 40s) they only bothered to bring over and translate the stuff that was actually great. From _AKIRA_ to _Dragon Ball_ to _Tenchi Muyo!_ (my personal favorite; well, the first two OVAs are... after that it starts getting _really bad.)_ Hell, even _Vampire Hunter D_ and _Demon City Shinjuku,_ and then later the absolute perfect distillation of Super Robot mecha anime that is _Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann._ They were only importing the premium stuff, not just bringing over every disposable Japanese cartoon in the hope of making a quick buck.
(Well, except for_Ghost Stories,_ a disposable kid's cartoon series from the early 2000s that reportedly bombed in Japan but was brought over with an English dub by ADV Films where they let the voice actors ad-lib and crack dirty jokes and it is _absolutely Goddamn hilarious._ If you haven't heard of it before you should _really_ give it a try.)
Unfortunately, most of that originality seems to have been lost with most newer anime, as it just seems to keep recycling the same old tired shout-outs to older anime (the next time I see a reference to Goku standing on top of Nappa's head for the umpteenth time I will barf.) And even in older anime, most of the the ideas that seemed new to Americans was actually just pretty standard stuff to Japanese culture. And most of that is simply because we Americans are now being exposed to a much wider sampling of Japanese anime instead of only getting the cream of the crop.
That's not to completely dismiss contemporary anime, there is definitely still some great stuff being created. It just seems to be buried under tons of crap (and I _absolutely despise isekai_ and everything it stands for.)
One character I'd argue played a huge role in the death of traditional Tsunderes in anime was Louise in Zero no Tsukaima, she's one of the earlier examples of a character who, despite often being referred to as a Tsundere, never really undergoes a change in her attitude towards either the main character, instead staying aggressive and easy to anger, while simultaneously growing closer to Satou. I also think the rise of SoL/CGDCT as genres also helped with this, with people searching for a way to refer to easily irritable characters who are still sweet and nice to those closest to them (such as Kagami in Lucky Star), and while they wouldn't fall into the initial definition of Tsundere, it probably felt like the closest already existing term.
yeah
I’ve always been a bigger fan of Chuunibyos and Kuuderes because there is usually that narrative progression with them. For Kuuderes, it’s leading up to the iconic first smile/cry. But for Chuunis, it’s growing to know them as a person and seeing behind the mask
insert dumb dream reference here
And That's why Chunibyo (the anime) is one of my favorite romance animes.
I never realized there was such an interesting evolution on what tsundere means! Honestly, the old-school definition almost seems more similar to what people look for in enemies-to-lovers tropes today. The classic tsundere and her love interest may not be literal enemies, but both classifications have that same "I have no feelings for you, but now you've won me over against the odds" dynamic. I'm not a big fan of the newer tsunderes that misinterpret situations and get mad about it, but maybe the classic version would be more up my alley. Great video!
edit: When I made this comment, I thought about mentioning "rivals to lovers" as well, but just didn't bother. Maybe I should've thought twice, that might be the better comparison.
enemies to lovers is an extreme toxic trope, tsundere is not
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 how?????? what????
Enemies-to-Lovers is too often basically an Anne Frank/Heinrich Himmler ship, written for the classic "I can fix him" fantasy and the same "attraction to danger" tropes that make Vampire/Pirate/Werewolf/etc romance novels popular.
Whereas TsunDere is really between people who are fundamentally allies, even if they're also rivals. Look at the classics: Asuka and Shinji aren't *enemies*. Louise and Saito aren't *enemies*. Shana and Yuji aren't *enemies*. Etc. In lots of ways it's similar to the "rural cop and urban cop have to learn to work together to solve a case" trope, just with romance added in and less-mature characters.
But the exemplar Enemies-to-Lovers for me is the "the author thinks Draco is hot so changes all his actions and beliefs, just keeps the leather pants" story. It typically has the same "my OC was great the whole time, everyone else just needed to realize that and worship me" problems that lots of the recent Marvel stuff does.
@@pfeilspitze to me that abuser to lover shit is something else. Enemies to lovers to me is something like Romeo and Juliet, where they're opposite sides of a conflict outside of their relationship to each other.
but they usually like team up and overthrow the system or come together to fight a common enemy etc.
@@DLH112that... Depends, those enemies arent stifled by the usual social strata that would birth such conflict to begin with, if they are true enemies, with different conflicting ideologies, it can be seen as 'toxic' when one of them falls for the other after realizing her ideologies are unfounded/dumb.
The toxicity solely depends on how easy the one of side's the ideology to 'fix', "kill people for country bad, ends justify means bad, maybe your leaders are actually lying/lead by primordial evil dragon" hence it can be seen as either cheap but true to the fighting a common enemy or actually fix. But, if their ideology is sound, and both of you are in the morally grey, you cant 'fix' the other, especially if they decided on that path for decades
This idea of databasification is in my opinion an extension of earlier ideas in postmodern philosophy and semiotics about hyperreality, and the idea of signs representing other signs. When signs or symbols start to be representations of other signs, without having a basis in reality, they lose all meaning and become purely floating signs, with no connection to anything else. The tsundere is an example, having become disconnected from the very real basis of someone growing to love another, having been distilled down into a set of arbitrary character traits, then reamplified back up into an entire archetype based on nothing but an already artificial idea. A simulacrum, as baudrillard would put it
You're absolutely right. Both Azuma and Manovich directly lead from postmodernity into their ideas of the database, with mentions of simulacrum and semiotics throughout both of their books
Postmodern is old news pal, we in hyperpost-modernity now.
@@ghoulbuster1 I neither know nor care about “hyper postmodern”, I use the term “postmodern” to describe the philosophical school of postmodernism, not the time period or historical era or whatever
Exactly, Lextorias' summary of Hiroki Azuma's book makes it sounds like a description of Postmodern deconstruction in the context of Anime, with that natural consequence being decontextualisation, as you describe. Databasification is just a term for this process.
@@thestatusjoe9949 wait..... wouldn't that also be the punchline to itself?
I really like if more stories started making what I call « the realistic tsundere ». A tsundere that actually has a good and realistic reason to be so defensive about herself and not wanting to open up.
The best example I can think of is Natsuki from ddlc, a character who we later learn on that has been ignored, abused, neglected, made fun of and has been treated like a child, she has every right to believe that good people don’t exist, so when a guy barges into her safe space with seemingly ulterior motives, she is understandably upset. She doesn’t physically hurt him, but she is mean to him and only gets to know him thanks to a shared interest. She eventually opens up to him and even apologizes for being mean to him.
Came for the death of the tsundere, stayed for the insightful media theory.
Tsundere: Oh main character-kun, time for your daily physical abuse because of events normally outside your control or me being an uncontrolled woman embarrassed of basic human emotions~
Protagonist: please stop.
My favorite Tsundere character is Misaki Ayuzawa from Kaichou Wa Maid-Sama!. She feels different from other Tsundere characters probably because she is the main character and can’t be too Tsun-Tsun without becoming unlikable and it is also a Shoujo series.
Same for me
Misaka mikoto from a certain railgun also is a favorite for me for this reason. It's also apparent that her characterization is only good in railgun and the index light novels and she becomes basic tsundere in the index anime because J.C. staff is so used to churning out basic tsunderes.
Might have to check this out
Omg same. And also i like that she actually has a reason for being so violent and eventually grows from it
@@danielgrezda3339I was just thinking about how much better railgun is than the other ones (idk about lns just anime)
Something I've called out for the last two decades, as well. Flanderization, basically. Characters are boiled down to a single trait.
You have perfectly described a feeling, an itch in the back of my mind that I've been unable to identify. The difference between how I consume media and others do - I prefer to sit down and appreciate it as a whole, to witness all of its elements and think about how they synergize. Because of this, I can't really discuss it with others. I never have been able to. It's like we're on different planes of existence entirely. Thank you for explaining this and creating this video.
I'll coin a term I learned from my AP English teacher in high school: Active reading.
Sounds like you actively enjoy reading/watching the media you like over just consuming it like food, passively. I'll admit myself, partially due to how I seem to always get into things that are too niche, past their heyday/prime, and my general mental awareness, I might be stuck in that passive mode myself.
You're right, it's so weird watching discussion about irrelevant things like "waifus" instead of discussion the story.
@@valutaatoaofunknownelement197 Good point. I have noticed a lot of people just use media to fill space. They hate voids of silence or stillness. So they surround themselves with noise and moving images. Then they turn specific items from that database of noise and motion into memes as a socialization tool.
I enjoy active reading. To the point that I passively consume more junk media that I don't care about than otherwise, because I avoid stuff I'm actually interested in if I don't think I have the time or correct headspace to give it the attention it deserves.
And yeah... I feel like I'm on a different plane of existence from others quite a bit. Completely different modes of perception.
Yeah, as an author, this whole thing feels like it helps me understand the... weirdness I feel when I hear other people talk about writing. It's all genres, and the works that defined any given genre. And how this work was clearly based on X and that one was inspired by Y. Same thing for TV, and movies, and games. 'Such and such new game is a mix of zelda and mario,' is definitely something I've heard before.
Like, when any given element gets picked out of one of my stories and people go 'ooh, it's just like that thing from that other story!' and all I can do is shrug at the coincidence. I've even been in classes before where teachers talk about getting a whole lot of references for anything you want to make, to like, take the aspects of them that you want to use. That you're *supposed to* do it that way.
Literally *the database.*
And the whole time, all I can think of is like, why isn't alright for me to just *imagine something new?* That I came up with myself, on my own, without basing it off of something else?
I never understood why characters would fall for the tsundere. Why fall in love with someone so violent and treats you like a punching bag?
Sensing large amounts of passion and wanting to guide it in a different direction. Same thing with girls going for "bad boys" based on their external confidence.
Ikr
Many times they fall for the Tsundere because of the dere moments that appear.
Probably because they're masochistic and lack self-respect. Just like the anime fans who are into this insanity.
stockholm syndrome
Brilliant video. I think this idea of the "death of narrative media" can explain so much of modern anime trends, and why the value of the stories in and of themselves seems to be diminishing. It also ties well into waifu culture in anime, games, and general entertainment-- as someone who looks on the whole thing kind of cynically, I don't really know how to feel about the future of entertainment culture..
I see media and trends as a cycle, personally. Somebody creative and inventive will innovate, people will rip it off, it'll get worn out, people will get sick of it, and they'll move on to the next innovation. But regardless of whether it's old media or new media; and at it's core, it's ALWAYS been driven by the people who innovate.
Note that I'm also very cynical to waifu culture. But I'm at least confident that the conflict between those who set trends and those who follow them is gonna stay...
@@MSCDonkeyKongI agree completely. When it comes to business, cynical greed moves forward recklessly until it collapses under the fatigue and indifference of customers, who then look elsewhere for their satisfaction. It’s not a death, but a cycle. But it still sucks to be living in the low point of it. Best to just weather the storm with your favorite media I suppose
Really this is just the AI existential crisis expressed in anime form. And not just AI as we know it now. Trend analysis being used to make decisions, and its tendency to distill and/or radicalize results as part of a feedback loop.
@@freelancerthe2561 This problem in anime long precedes AI. It's been getting worse since the early 2000s.
I’d like to comment on this as a Kpop fan who’s also interested in anime. While watching his video on waifu culture, I saw a lot of parallels between waifu/moe culture and the way Kpop fans think about their “biases” (favorite members in an idol group for the uninitiated).
When Produce 101 (a show making a Kpop idol group) was described as “healthy [corn]”, the first thing that came to mind was moe. Shows about cute girls doing cute things have the same appeal as idol groups shooting vlogs and reality/variety shows. VTubers are essentially anime girls gaining access to livestreaming platforms idols have been using for a long time.
Lextorias briefly commented on the similarity between waifuism and Kpop fan culture at the end of that video. But he never uttered what it’s referred to more often in both academia and Kpop fan circles: parasocial relationships.
My favorite example of a Tsundere is Makise Kurisu. She does not hate Okabe for the sake of it, but just his obnoxious shenanigans that don't match his age. She likes his cute side and genuinely respects his sharp intellect. She can hold up a conversation with Okabe(or anyone) for more than 5 sentences without turning into a red tomato. In fact most of her anger comes when she reacts to something(characters or narrative), essentially making her "tsun-tsun" part an important(but not the only) piece of her character and overall narrative. And eventually through character development and plot progression, her "dere-dere" part starts to come out, but not in an annoying or downright intolerable way, but in the form of softer mannerisms and speech, which shows her true love.
Great video yet again!
Not okabe that cares about the gang but puts up the mad scientist persona to keep from having to talk about it.
Makise Kurisu is peak tsundere. No one else comes close.
Reminds me of the advice writers often give: People will remember your characters, not your plot. I think what the wise dudes from 2001 wrote about perfectly parallel this because the plot is what ties all the individual pieces of a setting (characters, factions, nature...) together and the primary reflection of overarching themes, yet what people pay the most attention to and remember are one of those individual pieces. Heck, I can say I'm a fan of DMC yet I dislike playing anyone but Dante, or I love the OST of 40k: Mechanicus but never play the game itself... Even the whole idea of listening to YT videos or podcasts while gaming prove their point.
Great vid!
I HATE tsunderes. If I had my way, every time a tsundere did what a tsundere does, the MC would just say "Fine, be that way." and leave her alone to go be with love interest that actually knows how to express their emotions like a real human being.
F*ck tsunderes, and not in the fun way.
14:33. That makes Eris Greyrat a "real" tsundere. She very definitely starts out as tsuntsun, as tsuntsun as tsuntsun gets, and then goes epic deredere for Rudeus later, and it's quite the journey.
I can sound off a few examples of American characters who fit the criteria, half of whom are from Nickelodeon. The most famous is Helga from Hey Arnold, followed by Cindy from Jimmy Neutron and Ronnie-Anne from The Loud House. More recently, we get Natsuki from DDLC, Amity from The Owl House, and Blitzo from Helluva Boss, due to his complicated relationship with a prince of hell
I'd make the argument that its not what you'd think, if only for the fact that they very clearly telegraph that as "end game". That opens up a whole different writer's can a hell worms when you have pre-destination on the table. Also runs the risk of a lot of lazy writing habits. Its practically the perfect set of examples of the Database tagging over Narrative arc mentioned above.
Except for Blitzo. The fun of Blitzo (or that whole cast) is decrypting the history that makes them the high functioning FEMA disasters that they are. That whole show is a quest for closure.
Thank you for explaining why Urusei Yatsura is the way it is. I recently read the first volume of the urusei yatsura manga and found Lum's sudden shift really strange.
this is actually a really good thing to keep in mind as an amateur writer tbh. i should really be taking better care that all my characters actually have their own arcs and arent just a collection of traits and behaviors. its difficult trying to create unique characters that are all distinguishable enough from each other, especially when you have a big cast, so its very tempting sometimes to start relying on tropes to do the heavy lifting for you. i kinda even do it subconsciously alot of the time. this has definitely been an eye opener for me
As described in this video, this "databasification" to me doesn't feel like a new trend, but rather a normal human trend of compartmentalization that's only now been given a modern name. Classical media even in antiquity had people remember only the most memorable parts of the work and then propagate it - see how Arthurian Legend has evolved over time, or how elements from stories like Frankenstein, the various Greek Epics, etc., have been adopted piecemeal and then broken down and incorporated into various other works over time. Hell, just look at the way people quote from media: they oftentimes use the quotes out of context regardless of the original narrative. An example would be how people sing the chorus of certain songs to portray a particular type of sentiment that contradicts the actual song it was in, like say "Born in the USA" where the lines are used patriotically despite the rest of the lyrics being an anti-war song with a not so patriotic sentiment.
This to me really comes down to a very simple fact: human memory is not perfect, and we only really engage in things that are memorable to us. I am reasonably confident that most people who read long novels or movies don't really remember the entirety of it unless they make it a habit to consume those particular works repeatedly, i.e. memorization by sheer repetition. Instead, when consuming a particular piece of media, people talk about the most memorable part of the work, which likely only constitutes only 5% or so of it if we're generous. Modern short-form social media may have further propagated said practices, but the actual practice itself hasn't really changed.
THANK YOU.
I say this constantly to people that try to argue that modern media is somehow way worse then the past. The "rose tinted glasses' effect is real and huge, works that are quality stand the test of time and are remembered while all the chaff and crap is forgotten leading to a wrapped perception that those famous and influential works were actually representative of the general quality of a past era rather then outliers. One also need only go and look at critical reactions at the time to see that damn near every new wave or era is heralded as worse then what came before.
@@Tk3997while this is true, I do think people are correct in thinking that the quality is trending down. the customer's memory is not the only thing that changes over time, corporate strategy also changes.
think of every disney movie ever- what percentage of "good" movies out of all movies would each decade have?
let's go a step further and exclude sequel movies ("unplanned" sequels tend to be harder to write and also lower budget so they are kind of skewing the analysis), and count again.
most people haven't watched ALL disney movies, so let's exclude any movie those people have previously seen. this is done to get rid of rosy retrospection.
I'm willing to bet that on average, some decades would be significantly lower rated (for example the 70s which is often described as disney's dark era), and that one of those decades would be the 2010s.
When that part came up in the video the first thing that came to mind in terms of tsundere and databasing was Helga Pataki from Hey Arnold. A character created 5ish years before the term tsundere came to be
@@Tk3997I think you are partially right and that yes indeed only the best stuff from past eras gets remembered indeed. But one thing that did change is for example the "ADHDness" of fiction so to say, because right now there is more media competing for your attention than ever before and trying harder to very simply hook you, often not doing that well. Also many things get overlooked because audience lacks the attention span for it.
And with fiction being more commercial than before in many ways there's a lot more non-passionate works with no spirit behind them.
That being said since there's just much more fiction in general than ever before, there's also obviously more trash. it's much harder and probably impossible to say whether the amount of bad fiction became larger overall from percentages.
I'd say it's more of a type of flanderization slowly brought about by the community diving more and more into the hyperreality of the database and the attention/profit motive pushing a lot of people to "streamline" the process, that is, to make it easier and faster to produce and to adopt every single trope "that works", just like the pokemon clones rush of the mid 90s, imagine a Tsundere rush spread throughout the years
Flanderization. Thats the word I've been trying hard to remember.
My very first anime ever was Toradora, and i absolutely fell in love with the character of Taiga because at the time i struggled with similar things she did (not specifically anything related to love, but taiga took the tsundere personality into every aspect of her life as a defense mechanism and i found myself empathizing with a lot of times where shed push people away out of fear of being hurt) and as a result, ive always had a special place in my heart for tsunderes, despite the glaring problems with the trophe
piss off I tried to watch toradora but taiga was just a plain bully to the male character. I hated it
@@jakeystarsuper L cant tell the difference between gaga and actual emotional developments/struggles
@@dealtanace And double L for you cause you don't understand why so many people don't like modern tsunderes anymore. The reason is that "having emotional developments/struggles" doesn't justify physical and emotional abuse, no matter what gender the character is. If a tsundere was a male character and he always punched the female MC for any thing she did, I believe you wouldn't write what you did now.
@peachesandcream22 Mans has never watched an episode of Gintama. They are gags dude, exaggeration for the sake of whatever weird humor japan has, its not justifying violence or anythin, its just dumb gag humor, like the chicken in family guy
@@peachesandcream22 Grimoire of Zero, Chunnibuyo and Other Delusions and Aho-Girl.
The amount of effort you put into the tsundere troupe is impressive it's like a mini documentary
Dude, you have grown in all aspects: writing, delivery, presentation, editing.
Above all, you have done well to tie aspects of the subject matter beyond just your basic "animu/waifu" topics that a lot of other channels would outright ignore.
Keep it up, it's great to see your insights become more concise and precise.
Interesting deep dive! Another great video on an angle I hadn't thought about before.
It's interesting how the "modern tsundere" is such a popular fantasy despite the fact that "expression of affection causes physical violence and insults" would be a terrible foundation for a relationship. At least the "classic tsundere" would be nice to you after you got to know them...
Not to mention, it's almost a shame that (as you point out) characters in anime seem to be designed as personality archetypes first and characters second. Come to think of it, there's no slang terms for the (supposed) protagonists of the sorts of stories where 'tsundere' gets thrown around - is this because of a blind spot because they're the point-of-view character, or have the 'MCs' just never had any particularly interesting traits? (Or maybe the sorts of people that coin these terms only really care about the girls in these stories!) 🤔
I think you're getting something there.
I've used "Kiritoid" for something similar.
I feel like an example of a good tsundere in more recent anime/manga is Karane Inda from 100 Girlfriends. She's able to open up and admit her feelings in a way cuter way and generally doesn't feel too annoying. While she can get violent sometimes, she usually apologizes to the MC afterwards, which is a breath of fresh air.
Karane is the best and worst example. Most (if not all) GFs in 100 girlfriends are basically tropes cranked up to 11 (or more).
In a way, Karane is *too* much of a tsundere. She is completely transparent, and the MC knows it. And knows how to deal with her. At that point she´s just dere with extra steps.
Don´t get me wrong, she´s awesome and I love her, but her "tsun" loses most of its meaning in the story. (anime only) It´s just a fun quirk.
For me, tsunderes work best in a story with a mix of characters that know, and some that are oblivious. Maybe even leave the viewer guessing her true feelings for a bit.
That said, I kinda despise the sort of "bastardized" tsunderes that are openly in love with a character, but still violent and abusive. (Looking at you ToraDora.) That´s just being mean.
I personally think a good example is Kaguya (love is war), even though I don´t remember seeing her mentioned much. (I might just be drawing a complete blank.) And she has quite a lot of progression from cold, to cute, to love.
(My favourite is still Rin though.)
@@johnyshadowToradora? Taiga wasn't in love with Ryuji for pretty much the entire first part of the story and she didn't even really realize how she felt at all until Christmas and even by THAT point, she was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY less abusive to him as they got closer and closer to each other. She is blunt, but the wholesale punching and abuse pretty much stopped by the time her dickweed dad showed up.
@@orga7777 Ok, that is a fair point.
Still was tough for me to get over. (Or rather, I didn´t.)
I´m not saying all overly violent tsunderes need to die sad and alone, but I certainly don´t have the patience to deal with them.
Sorry if I sound a bit too salty. ToraDora was cute, but the whole show was just a combination of things that really got on my nerves, so I judge it as a whole way harsher than I should. I could not deal with the BS.
Karane is abusive but it works because 100 Kanojo is basically a slapstick series. It doesn't feel out of place. Kind of like Urusei Yatsura.
@@johnyshadow 100 GFs are both tropes cranked up to 11 and a very unique twists. Karane might be a turbo tsundere, but she is a honest person deep at heart, who can sense if other person is hiding their true feelings. She is not dere with extra steps, all of her interactions are based around the idea of honesty/dishonesty, that she herself indulges in. Tsundere nature is an integral part of her character. I guess you will have to wait for Season 2, because "Tsundere Lost" arc is absolutely incredible
The huge spike in popularity of the term Tsundere probably comes from Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu. Haruhi being the show which broke viewership records, both in Japan and internationally. And as someone who was frequenting boards and forums at the time, the "Tsundere wars" were going on at that time. Which is a fancy way of saying, Tsundere was becoming known to the masses and heavily debated. And even by then, people were getting tired of it. The Tsundere wars was people arguing over who was the worst Tsundere. Asuka, Akane, Naru, Taiga, Louise, Chidori, Haruhi and so many more that it would take a whole post to list them all. Since nearly every show seemed to have one. So it's not hard to see why there would be a huge spike in searches for the term.
Anyway, I completely agree with the conclusion of this video. The problem with the Tsundere archetype is that the vast majority of them don't get to the dere part. They're Tsun the whole time, until the very last episode or chapter when they reluctantly lower their guard and admit they like the guy (or girl). This is why I argue that characters like Taiga from Toradora or Shizuku from Whisper of the Heart are actually well written ones. Because they gradually lower her guard, with the audience actually seeing it. And most importantly, they don't backpedal on it. Once it's out in the open, they own it. In other words, they make the full transition to Dere. Contrast this to a character like Asuka or Naru. Or the absolute worst example, Yozora from Haganai. They're forced into a corner and admit their feelings...then the next episode, they act like nothing happened. And not only go back to being Tsun, but get even MORE abusive and angry than before.
Tsundere as an archetype isn't a problem. It's that most of them aren't actually Tsundere. They're just Tsun. We don't really need to change the term. We just need people to start using Tsun and Tsundere as separate terms. One denoting a character who doesn't transition to Dere and the other that does.
Its way too late for a change.
And in the case of Yozora, wasn't this on porpuse, where you see the main character purposefully ignoring this sort of affection in order to not change the current situation.
@@yesterttd The problem in Yozora's case is her reason to be tsun was based on a misunderstanding. One that (finally) gets resolved, despite her doing everything she can to hide it from the guy. But once it's resolved, she doesn't change. She just stays the way she was. Which makes her entire reason for being tsun pointless.
Personally I wouldn't classify Asuka as tsundere. She's a broken character due to her strained relationship with her dad, and death of her mom. And her inability to really form close relationships, either with that guy she tried to date or with Shinji is just part of the overall narrative of Evangelion. The show had an episode called the Hedgehog's Dilemma talking about why people don't try to open up and be close to others which applies to like 60-70% of the main cast.
Another part of the "never get to the dere" part is that anime (which is the most popular among animanga) only adapts like 30 chapters from 200+ chapter series, obviously the tsundere won't become the dere that early... And 90% of the anime never get more than 24 episodes or 2 cours of 12 unless they are really popular like Fruits Basket... So ppl see a fraction of a narrative and the natural assumption is that a tsundere = violent or rude or annoying.. The fundamental of the anime industry is at fault here...
Possibly the tsundere I remember most is Akane, since I grew up watching Ranma 1/2. She's such a weird case. Spends a lot of time telling Ranma how much she hates him, yet goes into a violent rage if she sees him with another woman.... even though she can't admit the reason she's so angry is because she is jealous. I mean there are times where Ranma is a bit of an asshole too and purposely pushes her buttons (even when he should know it's a bad idea), but the majority of the times she's just violent with little provocation.
That's mostly because the anime of Ranma 1/2 changed a lot of stuff regarding Ranma and his actions around Akane while keeping her the same.
So her getting mad at him in the manga for a sensible reason would turn into her just being jealous for no reason because the context changed. (Seriously, Ranma is almost a straight up villain sometimes in the manga)
Tsundere's may have changed a lot throughout the years
But at the end of the day, they're still peak
Peak suicide material.
I think this might be why Nino Nakano from Quintessential quintuplets is one of my favorite characters because she starts off hating the mc because she feels like he is taking her sisters away from her, but when she realizes that is not the case and that he actually cares about them, despite him not wanting to acknowledge that fact, she starts falling for him and becomes full on dere-dere
yeah Nino is a real tsundere character. which is why people with good taste know she's best girl. you can tell someone has bad taste if they think Miku is best girl, like, without a doubt.
She drugged the mc. I lost all interest after that. I don´t care how "great" she becomes, she should be in jail and that´s the end of my argument.
@@dvillines26 I guess I have bad taste. I mean, they are all pretty good in my opinion, but she is absolutely the best in my eyes.
@@dvillines26 Itsuki true best girl
That show is terrible. They were complete bitches to him for no reason.
When the algorithm offered up this video I was just curious about the term tsundere because I had seen Yandere several times elsewhere recently. Your breakdown of databasisfication is super interesting and gave me a lot to think about in regards to modern media, but the line about AI in particular and placing it in the context of databasification really articulated something I've been casting about for. Came for a term definition, stayed for the thought provoking but succinct and accessible culture and media analysis! Thank you!
This was fascinating. One of my favorite stories in manga (I'm not sure if there's an official translation or not) called Still Sick, feels like it purposefully inverts the tsundere. There's a character who starts off warm and friendly toward the MC, but then shows her true colors as acerbic and world-weary. She has to heal from her past, but in doing so the mangaka talks about how to make a meaningful narrative in an almost fourth-wall breaking way. I questioned how much of it was autobiographical, especially because there was some painful homophobia that doesn't get the standard yuri 'and everyone was totally cool with it!' treatment. No, they actually had to endure mistreatment in a realistic way.
I think you're right in that there's been a large influx of content for content's sake, and it will only get worse as AI gets better. And as capitalism gets hungrier and hungrier. But even as real life products have been cheapened and plasticized, there will always be people who desire the real thing, the thing that maybe costs more but doesn't break, the things that have heart and care, deeply, about the entirety of the process and the outcome. One of my favorite things about running around inside of a video game world is coming across an item or piece of environmental story-telling and feeling like, "They didn't have to put this here. But they did." And I don't think that can be done by a thing or system without heart. I want to live in a place where I can go, *yes, somebody cares.*
Edit - it's amusing to me that one of the thumbnails in my feed directly after watching this video is one titled 'The Marvelization of Cinema' and the picture is cinema vs. content. Fitting!
Actually talks about how influential bishoujoge are to otaku landscape. Based.
It'd be cool if you could also analyze the impacts of Kakyusei 2 and other media at the time to the perception of "purity" in anime waifu as well.
I wasn't expecting to like this video based on the title, but you got me, many good points and you won me over. Also a reminder of how great Lucky Star was.
Also id just like to say that your analysis of these topics is genuinely a step above the rest. Ill go into a video about tsunderes and end up also learning about how media has evolved over time, not just in its creation but also in its consumption. Absolutely amazing work keep it up! 💜
I can appreciate the appeal of the Tsundere and there are some I quite like. But in general, I find them a little annoying and I don't really ever feel bad for them when the target of their affection chooses someone else. They'll act all shocked but I'm just like "Well yeah. Duh. Of course he'd choose someone else! You're constantly a b*tch to him! I'd choose someone else too!"
The best tsundere are the ones not always harmful or annoyed the character
That's why I prefer male-dere characters. For example Kujo Jotaro is a kuudere, except his kuudere aspect is connected to how he actually loves and cares about his family and friends, even though he seems cold, and rude about it.
It's just a yet another example of how a broader narrative makes dere-characters more intriguing and complex
You just explained to me why I sense a strange quality in some of the stories I read, that I couldn't name until now. In those stories, the characters develop along the storyline.
Now I await for The Take to do their own video on the tsundere archetype and how it relates to domestic abuse because of their behavior.
I love high quality anime video essays like this one, thank you :)
Thank you for your effort, and your writing. I appreciate it
from what i heard a while ago, the 2 tsundere types are recognised as 2 different types of tsundere. the tsundere who permanently changes to deredere is called the classic tsundere, while the tsundere who still have tsuntsun moments are called modern tsundere. and yea, i can agree that modern tsundere is usually done badly because the character is usualy tsuntsun for no reason
in classic tsundere, the character permanently loses their tsuntsun side due to character development or developing their relationship, so imo modern tsundere should invoke their tsuntsun for good reasons
Well paced and structured video. Keep up the good work!
An interesting work to look at in this light is Saenai Kanojo no Sodatekata (How to Raise a Boring Girlfriend).
Its three main characters (excluding insert-kun) are an archetypal blonde twintail tsundere, an archetypal long black-haired araara oneesan, and the titular heroine who lacks any such distinguishing database elements (thus the "Boring").
It's a story of how the relationship between this girl, and the otaku protag who thinks of people in terms of such character traits, evolves.
The romance is driven by a substantive character growth narrative, and seems to be a not-so-subtle commentary on how anime viewers often reduce characters to interchangeable database elements.
While the initial episodes may seem somewhat shallow, content to indulge in self-aware humor, it only gets better as it goes on and is definitely one of the most satisfying romcom animes of recent years.
Steins;Gate vn dropped October 2009, maybe Kurisu was just that good
I would bet this was it.
I believe the English translation came out in 2014, and if you'll notice the 2009 spike was for the English term "tsundere", instead of "ツンデレ"
Always a good day when Lex shows up in my feed
I’ve been on TvTropes for years, long before it became popular, just another corner of the internet where I learned my favorite hobby was media analysis, and that website is probably a good part of the data basing of modern media. While it is supposed to be like an encyclopedia of techniques, its existence and methods basicall facilitate the same behavior that one book was critiquing about otaku.
And of course because I was once a long time citizen of TVT I knew about the original definition of tsundere. TvT is even where I learned about all the other -deres. But I always hated tsunderes because all I could think about was the modern version as shallow archetypes. But these modern versions are basically echos, or distorted mirrors, faded repetitions that barely resemble the origin and reflect the misunderstanding born from trying to recapture a concept.
Very well said, miss the days of having a story with progression, as much as I enjoy Shows like Rama 1/2 where there is no progressing and just silly fun hijinks, I wish we still had more actually stories with a journey with it be action, drama, romance, or tragedy thank goodness I bought so many Anime dvd's during the 2000's
I think these are some of the best anime essays I’ve seen in years, this one and the waifu one. Great job!
There’s a true tsundere in a modern series whose anime is actually airing this season: Our main character, Maomao of The Apothecary Diaries.
And it’s not really obvious, because she’s a far cry from even *original* tsunderes, let alone modern ones. She’s not violent or physical in any way with our male lead Jinshi, nor does she blush or act at all like she even has a crush. Because she DOESN’T, yet. The development of their relationship is *slow*, but certain. It started with her often looking at or reacting to his flirtatious actions with disgust and thinking of him as an annoyance (though for better or worse, he’s a masochist that thoroughly enjoys her looks of disdain). Gradually, they become closer, like acquaintances slowly becoming good friends, and while of course Jinshi falls hard and fast, Maomao still hasn’t- or if she has, it’s not obvious and she herself still has yet to realize, and she’s still got plenty of disgusted looks and some friendly verbal jabs to throw his way. Even by the end of volume 9 of the light novels, the development of their relationship still has a long way to go, but regardless she feels like a TRUE tsundere, of the developmental kind. And you can’t take away any part of the slow pacing or the way their relationship grows because it’s all CRUCIAL to Maomao as a character. (If you couldn’t tell I HIGHLY recommend people give the Apothecary Diaries anime/manga/light novel a try, but especially the light novel)
And I think this kind of very slow tsundere development that is integral to both characters involved is ONLY possible because this tsundere is the protagonist, rather than the love interest the protagonist chases. Because she’s the protagonist that story is told through the perspective of, it’s okay for her to take her time. The tsundere romantic development and the way it all unfolds is important to Maomao as a character, but it’s far from what defines her motivations or personality.
She's just a stray cat
Thanks for the gravity rush music! For anyone curious, the track is Pleasure Quarter (0:00 - 0:53) and both games are definitely worth playing!
It reminds me of something I read about how music was consumed in smaller and smaller bites. We used to have vinyl which you had to flip over midway, then cds, then Napster/mp3 introduced singles. Where full albums had a flow to them and song order gave a shape to the whole listening experience, singles in a shuffled Spotify playlist are a more randomized and chaotic shape which “flattens” the listening experience..
It was right around that time the flaming lips released the four cd album “Zaireeka” where the four albums were meant to be played at the same time, requiring four participants to unlock the full experience. In a few years digitalization made it possible to combine all four cds and not require any friends
All of this is similar to how character types are flattened into recognizable archetypes and removed from an overall narrative about their growth. Or how a political speech is flattened into a mass of talking points without a coherent point.
hi want to be friends
DAMN... this essay was way more deep than expected! Great job!
Damn man, every time you do an anime related piece, it's always amazing and so well researched. The fan service one was legendary. Looking forward to more great stuff 😊
A long time ago I saw a definition of the Tsundere archetype that actually split it into the Traditional Tsundere and the Modern Tsundere. The traditional Tsundere being a character that is rude and/or violent towards another character before falling in love with said character, after which her aggressions mellow out. So she's first "Tsun" and then "Dere".
The modern Tsundere doesn't change from "Tsun" to "Dere" over time, but constantly switches between the two, never stopping being both at the same time. This is also due to most stories nowadays never actually resolving love stories, especially in Harem Anime that thrive on fans shipping certain couples.
I always held on to this definition, but this video gives it a lot more context and where these differences really come from. I don't know how "good" I find these terms today, but I think it's a good baseline to differentiate between these types of characters.
I've always believed the sign of a good tsundere, is that they do not STAY a tsundere.
Tsunderes have a natural, built in arc to their character. That being, that they start off as ill tempered and judgement, but as they steadily fall in love they slowly learn to let of their bad habits and allow themselves to be more vulnerable and honset.
"The arc of a tsunbere is learning how to give up being a tsundere."
Hey dude, love the content, banger video as per usual, but thought I’d let you know that your sponsor is known in writing communities for being kinda shady and predatory with its contracts which include language that forces authors to give Webnovel first dibs at anything they make for the next year, obscures how payment is calculated, and contains multiple gag orders. They often use bots in fandoms to try to lure novice writers in and generally act suspicious, way too suspicious for any company to be acting. Kinda disappointed that you’ve chosen to partner with them ngl.
I always really enjoy learning unexpected concepts in your videos, well done!
this video is better than I thought it would be. impressed
Honestly, I never knew about the original meaning of that phrase. Honestly, a really well made video. Great job!
You did a great job on this one. And the way we consume media as touched on here has been covered in my Media and Communication Bachelor studies, further from that using song tracks out of context has been happening for decades in Advertising.
I remember noticing this trend about a decade ago, that people who were supposedly fans of fictional media (anime, manga, whatever) had stopped caring about those works as a whole and only were interested in its base components, although I couldn't quite articulate it like this video did. Everything became so flandarized as a result that character and story archetypes barely resemble what they were originally based on, all in the name of chasing ever more jaded and out-of-touch customers.
Thank you for making this really excellent video. I think you're spot on. I love your deep dive into the history of the tsundere. Characters used to be created to make sense narratively but now there have been a lot of people taking short cuts using character tropes. Then they wonder why these characters aren't as well loved.
I still don’t get how people like even the current deformed Tsundere. I just don’t see the appeal of someone saying they hate you so much
The point of tsunderes is to have that tonal shift of being a tsundere, into being honest with their feelings toward the love interest. It hasn't changed since the first tsundere.
@@complimentbot7015What has changed is how abusive they are.
@@JayceCH. maybe in a comical way. I can't recall any tsunderes that are just malicious. They're not tsunderes at that point either.
I don't like the most exaggerated kind, but characters that start off prickly and argumentative can be a lot of fun especially as they lower their guard.
Just a side-note about Urusei Yatsura, it's one of the only anime ever to get a fully British Dub by the BBC which is hilarious and has some really famous actors in it
It was a gag dub for charity and they only did like three episodes
@@MarilynMalkovich I know 'fully' meant the whole cast not the entire series
Your videos never miss man, great stuff!
It's important to realize that the characters who helped popularize tsunderes as a trope were usually young people or even children. Asuka Langley of Evangelion was a poorly adjusted 14 year old child. Naru Narusegawa of Love Hina was a highschool-to-college student but many other things were childishly "played up" in that anime for adolescent viewers-- still less gracefully executed, but still maintaining the point.
Tsunderes want maturity out of the "main character" but don't know how to ask for it, which leads to them acting out for attention instead. This is a big part of Asuka's point in her story. Naru Narusegawa by contrast played into traits like "being prone to dumb misunderstandings because of her outrage" and "being legitimately self-righteous in defense of kneejerk reactions," but I think especially in that time period there was more of a case to make for getting along with those kinds of people. There was a case of Naru legitimately having enough good to balance out the bad, and Keitaro being capable of not being as hurt by her flaws as other people might be. The show basically said, "people should change for one another, but you might not expect the ways they don't have to change either."
Good tsundere writing calls out their lack of personal honesty or awareness and makes it a related beat to the protagonist's growth.
the database consumption of media is really interesting to me because of how it ties into modern hate culture on social media, in that it both does and doesn't. When consuming drama on social media people look at one 'bad' action a person has committed and ignore the person as a whole (the beginning of cancel culture) They select these creators' actions as single pieces of data that are of equal importance to the person as a whole, which is not a true depiction of that person. No one is evil because of one bad thing. yet the audience thinks so. (some people do actually do horrible things but that's not the point rn lol)
The problem then comes when they try and prove their innocence with more out-of-context moments that 'debunk' the bad things, yet people ignore them. They don't latch on to those moments although according to the database, the 'good' moments should be of equal importance to the 'bad' moments. Neither provide a full picture of the person yet they should be of equal value.
But they aren't. People then choose to ignore the 'debunking moments' in favor of continuing to spread hate. This is where I get stumped.
Is it as simple as a filter bubble effect meaning the debunking information is squashed while hatred-filled content is circulated among those who already hate the creator, therefore solidifying their hatred to where it cannot be changed. Or worse do these social media platforms only care about money, and the simple truth is that hatred online makes more money than kindness, so that is the content the algorithm pushes to everyone. Does trying to provide more context for the hated viral creator backfire because audiences no longer care for context, they still prefer a moment, a piece of data, that being the event that is virally hated.
Why do audiences feel such a moral sense of correctness in the first place? Do they view others online AND their own actions as data? Selecting all the good and correct things they have done and forgetting the bad, to validate their own criticism and moral judgment of others online. When in reality neither are perfect humans as a whole, and neither are in a place to make such damning moral judgments.
It definitely could be both, or it could be neither, or it could be many, many other things.
If you can't tell, studying media and audiences is something I find incredibly interesting. The evolution of media and audience relationships from the traditional to the digital age will always be fascinating. And the good thing is, you'll never run out of case studies online :p
Asuka Langley Soryu and Haruhi Suzumiya have a justification to be tsunderes. The first is a girl who have been traumatized by the suicide of her mom who has become insane after a failed test on the Evangelion 02. This is why she is so distant. After all, Evangelion is anime full of characters who have their own issues. This is the same thing for Haruhi Suzumiya where the full name of her manga is the "Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya". We are facing a girl who lacks trust in herself and have an hard life, she tries to deal with it with a bitchy, exuberant personality.
So just like any other Tsunderes.
Great analysis of genre tropes and their evolution. The commentary on parasocial relationships/fandom and how these shaped anime archetypes was especially apprecited.
Man, I love these videos. Thank you
this is important to notate. hyperdatabasification exists everywhere and (while I have never had this term to use for its description) I have seen it everywhere. that is specifically why I like seeing the full story then and not leaving things unfinished (mostly) because consumption of the media in the older manner is more fulfilling than the newer manner, and a part of the irony for me than is that I prefer to observe stories in the manner that is way older than even I am. but an important thing to remember is that this hyperdatabasification is not an entirely bad thing. like everything, it is all about perspective. Fortnite is a perfect modern example of modern day databasification. I cannot think of a single game where you can be the Master Chief (from Halo) armed with a 12 gauge (shotgun) executing Micheal Jordan (basketball, I think, I am no sports nerd) while Naruto (from Naruto, obviously) watches your back. and while some will say the Fortnite is bad, for that or other reasons, many people enjoy Fortnite and bond over it, and I see a major amount of information sharing from it. the bad thing of this 'databasification' phenomena is that there can be major loss of the 'narrative' or 'context' as I would refer to it, but the very good thing about it is that more and more people can learn about information that they could enjoy or find use in, and if they are surrounded by experts that context may not be lost in the long run. anyways that was my chunk of words about this. ciao
2005 being 18 years ago is wack.
Time interpretation definitely plays a lot into how we adapt certain concepts and tropes to modern media. Advancements in technology are intimidating when we pair them with our constantly changing perception of entertainment and its value imagine what tropes and popular media we’ll be interpreting in another 10, 15 years from now.
Another banger video. Keep up the good work!
Lol holy shit
I remember Rumbling Hearts being one of my favorites when I was a young kid (and the first I can remember that almost got me to cry at the end) and I didn't know any about any of that. Always glad to see someone else talking about it, though most videos I see never talk about the anime and only the game.
Vegeta is best tsundere
I don't even watch anime but your videos are always so entertaining, keep up the good work!
Yo, thank you for putting the citation on the top-right, its clean and informative. I will probably read one of then latter
Excellent video, I've come to a point where I can't just enjoy media without asking myself these meta questions. I'm sure this isn't the only archetype that went through similar changes
Im glad theres another comment saying my thoughts. I dont like Tsunderes because of the violence, why would i want an abusive girlfriend? Kuudere imo are better because you can still have them be snarky, sarcastic, and mean if youre into that without getting hurt for it. Raven from teen titans is often described as one. I dont even know if the change over time aspect makes it better, attacking me over somethig trivial that may not even be my fault is a terrible first impression thatll sit with me.
So basically Akebono from KC(2013) is the recent example of a oldschool tsundere that can i think of in videogames at least.
She calls you shitty admiral but then later on(when she levels to kai ni) she warms to you and she even calls you shitty but as a form of messing around instead of being disgusted at you. There is even an interesting background that explain why she is like that.
I feel that KC is the only exception because unlike other collection games including gacha games that try to preserve their character's traits in amber KC adds over the course of time, even more interesting, Akebono doesnt change due to a narrative structure because there isnt lore or a proper main plot in KC(you made your own story with the character you have) but throught gameplay mechanics.
Clicked for a simple video about tsundere, got an unexpected conversation on nature of narrative art and how it changed over the past years. Thanks for an interesting video.
I love your investigative journalism. Please continue for as long as you want to. I gave my screen a round of applause for this one.