On the topic of lower end PMC: I know a lot of employed architects and lawyers who are being massively exploited and won't unionise because they see themslves as better than the traditional working class. Literally earning less than secretaries, working 60 hours a week. That's what I call economic self-harm.
@@normankeena A) I'm not American, I'm applying the concept to Europe. B) What's wrong with abbreviations? C) Your study is from the 1950s. Times have changed massively, especially when it comes to the working conditions in the fields I've mentioned. Seeing as I am a (European) lawyer, I know a little about it.
True, but when you are lower PMC and would actually love to unionize (my case), it's hard to find like-minded people, due to years of neo-liberal propaganda (sharing Polish perspective here, where coversations about class are really sort of taboo and using the word 'socialism' in a regular conversation makes you look crazy and I guess - an idiot who has not learned anything from history). And if you do find them, they are scared of losing their jobs and other employment prospects, especially those who have huge 30-year loans on their apartments (which are often shitty, btw) and/or, god forbid, kids. So in the long run it's self harm, but in the short term it is a result of trying to individually protect your basic security, which I kinda get. In this sense lower PMC faces working class challenges - with the exception of the pandemic: we didn't lose our jobs, we work from home.
@@kluskiztruskawkami Amen to that Kluski the neoliberal project out there has the same cause and effect out there as it does here. Im going conspiracy theorist for a moment. I bet in about 1978 no right when Reagan was declared the winner all the world leaders had a meeting with bankers, Wall Street executives , and others who are basically masters of the universe. At this meeting the world leaders were taught the New World Order neoliberaliam.
@@kluskiztruskawkami totally agree. I'm German, we have pretty similar issues here. I also understand people who, due to their own personal obligations, feel they can't unionise. However, at some point we have to break out of the vicious circle and that will take courage and sacrifice. Nothing has ever been won without it, and the fact that people are afraid of losing their jobs is a result of individualism and a lack of class solidarity. We should start by building class consciousness (if necessary without using the word), and by establishing values of solidarity between workers. It's a long way, but we have to start somewhere, preferrably now.
From the time I first discovered Catherine Liu’s writing, I have been blown away by her incisive take-no-prisoners wit and wisdom. This book is SO needed, RIGHT NOW. She’s right, nurses and secondary teachers finally told the lie of their PMC “preciousness” to fuck off. They recognized what the real deal was. Everyone else... HURRY UP. Jacobin, please have her come back regularly! This is the first time I’ve tuned in, and if it’s always this good... LOL! xoxox
Catherine Lieu's price on the PMC was brilliant. As a public school teacher in Australia, I recognise so much of what she describes, particularly the growth of compliance regimes at the expense of professionalism. In Australian education it has been dressed up as a heightening of our professional status but it has created a compliance regime that expands exponentially and makes us feel anything but professional. Also spot on when she says teachers who don't pursue managerial positions increasingly surrender their autonomy over their work.
It's the case in the U.S. too. Australia and the U.S. especially are very close to each other in social trends, which is unfortunate because it means both are extremely neoliberal.
Also true in Canada. What and how we teach is increasingly top down. Its a loss of autonomy for sure. If you have no interest in being in management, then your job is to be told what to do, what to say, what language to use, how and what to think. It's very frustrating for an independent-minded teacher. "If you do not speak the language you do not belong." That quote really resonated with me. Using certain phrases to signal that you share the values, mindset, world view of management are expected. Otherwise you mark yourself as an outsider.
@@miskaarpa3248 unfortunately, I think the corporatisation of education and culture of compliance is endemic throughout the advanced economies with the possible exception of Finland.
Maybe just stop being cowardly? Isn't this the result of people with little principles being herded into their placements without considering the system they are working in and the result of their actions? The problem I see is that you would need to gather around principles that are self organizing but you can't because you are easily manipulated and impractical. Sad truth, but what are you going to do about it?
@@kingsleyoji649 given that I'm an active unionist, including being a representative, president of one of the largest associations within my union and a councillor for that association, I'm hardly a coward. I led the school I work at in a revolt against a sitting principal who drove a corporate agenda and successfully overcame inaction from the department when we had two block closures due to asbestos. So thanks for declaring me easily manipulated and calling me cowardly. Even your description of the system I work in demonstrates little understanding of what I was describing. Self-orgasnisng as you posit would result in nothing. It takes a concerted effort at industrial organising, something I have devoted my life to as a unionist, following I'm the footsteps of my father and his forbears.
When I was a kid, the term 'yuppie' (Young Urban Professional) was often applied to many PMCs. Another term that comes to mind here is 'opportunity hoarding'. The story about the 'Lean In' woman refusing to engage with the predominantly female workers who were on strike at the hotel hosting her conference made me angry. As a low-wage healthcare worker, all this empty display of liberal 'empathy' and 'solidarity' for frontline workers from people who get to stay home doing zoom conferences means nothing if it doesn't also help improve material conditions of all workers. We don't want applause, we want living wages and benefits, like paid sick and parental leave.
Very good post. Insightful. I don't know if you will ever reply to me, but as a Man, I am curious, do you think the 'lean in' woman boss types tend to be harder on their female or male colleagues? Or does it depend on the person?
PMC's who are broadly speaking "anti-worker" or lacking class consciousness are not always to be blamed individually, nor are corporations who furlough workers. Neoliberal governments play into the Fear of Falling, and the pandemic furlough of workers is a result of the government (the monopoly currency issuer) not providing wage subsidies. Because neoliberal government representatives are a systemic problem, a lot of the abominable thoughts and practices of the worst of the PMC are also stemming from systemic problems, not just from horrendous individual greed and pettiness. As I've learned more about socialism I often tell myself first think about the systemic structure, before blaming individuals.
Just come across this and cannot begin to describe how much I love these 3 women and what they stand for. I really feel seen and spoken to and held to account omggg
That's great!! I see an overlap of about 75% in common concerns between the far left( what it is called in USA)*& a typical Trump/ Republican voter. I have both of these kinds of people in my life. We all hate being condescended to; know that most politicians are all corrupt to to the core; that this country's economic system (neoliberalism) is not working for most of us and seems to only benefit the corporate elites and Wall Street; that we are sick of high taxes, which we never see the benefit of with our poor schools, bad roads, and lack of local services; and were beyond furious about only bailing out the banks in the crash of 2008. If only these 2 sides could start talking together instead of hating each other, and falling for that old strategy of "divide & conquer" that elites have used for centuries to stay in control. * I am considered far left in USA, but I am actually more like what a moderate Republican was in the 1950's!!! Weird, how distorted our labels are now politically in the USA.
I’m really glad to hear that! Hopefully you can see that there is a growing section of the left who put the material needs of workers above woke culture war bs. Our goal is to empower people who understand that politicians don’t care about their needs but aren’t quite sure how to change that fact. Good luck on your political journey! There’s always so much left to learn..
This was fantastic! Totally the milieu I was raised in and there’s so many aspects of this that are relevant to my life as I look at grad school. Also this show is such good vibes, it’s always interesting and lighthearted even when it’s serious, always smart, Ariella and Jen are the best ❤️. New fave left show
It's in the managerial handbook, don't socialize with rank and file. It's a design, engineered to keep the workers in "their place"...and the managing class against them.
Most of my professional career in healthcare was spent caring for the poor, & especially the homeless. I am totally comfortable among them, in fact, more comfortable than with middle class people! But, I do have to say that they are " impulsive" ( that middle class word)--- they live in the moment. One example: $600 spent on a wedding dress, that was their rent money, but a nice dress for their daughter was a higher priority. They got evicted because of this decision. Life in the moment. You must spend lots of time, years in fact, with them to really understand how these folks live and often thrive in their poverty. I have an unusual unique perspective of these class issues. I got to start writing and contributing to this discussion more broadly.
I'm curious about how you are connecting your comment to what was discussed in this episode; perhaps itsjust me, but I don't see what your comment has to do with the PMC and what was discussed...would be interested in hearing more if you are interested in parsing your point out more.
Well, I would agree that people who are poor or otherwise on the margins of society do tend to be more impulsive, but in my experience it’s not usually causal of their poverty, but a reaction to it. To make decisions that are oriented towards the long term you need confidence that their IS a long term. The PMC person dutifully puts money in their 401k because they know they’re going to retire one day. The poor person says, fuck it I’m going to spend my last dime on a fun time cause I’m not going to have any savings regardless, might as well have some fun, and that’s a rational decision when you have no expectations from the future.
It relates to Dr Liu's claim that the PMC believes that working class people are poor because they are not managing their impulses. I don't know if they are worse at managing their impulses than middle class or PMC or rich people but such spending impulses impact poor people more.
Dear David, Exactly! That is my point, living in the moment, because who knows what your future will be in a day, a week, a month, in 10 years. Middle Class folks tend to defer, the lowest classes enjoy their life, as best as they can, in the moment. There is great irony in the pursuit of peace and mindfulness in all this practice of yoga and Buddhism by comfortable people; when these homeless folks, in their resilience, humor, and sharp wits & smarts could teach a person so much about " mindfulness", which is just another name for living in the moment and Carpe Diem. These folks do what they can to survive. If anyone would listen, they have much to teach us.
Bang on regarding a potential pivot for PMC or what I have been calling knowledge workers.... and the risk of "spending too much time with their children"... and then going against the teachers' unions. I am a former teacher but member of my professional association in Ontario and was dismayed that in our jurisdiction the gov was not taking seriously concerns of unions. It was very threatening and terrifying. I also have a background in distance education and online learning and the Google Classroom model and 3 hours of videoconferencing are an anomoly... and not pedagogically sound for a four year old.(or even adults). I am now horrified to try to multitask and work in the private sphere and co-teach my wee one also in the private sphere with cameras on for Zoom or Google classroom all day.... an erosion of public and private sphere with what feels like videosurveillance.. and feeling anxiety at not being able to concentrate or submit work requiring work managers and directors are now expecting output whereas last spring there was some leeway. And the lack of solidarity is disgusting with people thinking of their individual situation and not the collectivity ie teachers' unions or basic income support during pandemic which had been available. Mask shaming and blaming individuals is also very concerning. Thank you for these analyses.
I honestly think that putting little kids in front of the computer for anything but a one button game is unfortunate. I will say unfortunate but I am thinking: sick, unhealthy, unproductive, depravation, torture, concentration camp, but mostly drone training. I don't mean drone pilot training, but it is kind of that too, but I mean the kid is being trained to be a drone. School is for socialization and the push to make kids consume training or "education" over the computer is nothing more than a concentration camp. Of course when kids get older they can do math, reading, software training on the computer, but really the only one of those where the computer is indispensable is software training and computer science. I don't have kids, but I think remote "learning" remote screen conditioning is not healthy. I think the only reason a kid needs a screen is to talk to a family member or friend, that's it.
This is my favourite jacobin show hands down. Please have the three of you on together again. This is so enlightening with respect to our current paranoid culture. Please talk about PMC sex, sexuality and relationships next time!!
GREAT SHOW. Jen, I really really want to thank you for your segment...this is the first time that I have heard ANYONE DISCUSSING SCHOOL RE-OPENINGS in this way. Even in left media, there's the same nonsense around "schools don't seem to be places of viral transmission"....this is complete gaslighting. Would love to see Paul discuss the school re-opening debate, from his perspective as a teacher. AND YEP, THANKS FOR NAMING THE VERY REAL HOSTILITY TOWARDS TEACHERS' UNIONS. People have decoupled teaching from labor, even though teachers are also workers. Also, Ariella...YES. Pregnancy parking spots at Google...jeez. AMAZING SEGMENT.
@@JacobinMag Thank you! Great interview. Would love to see an updated interview or discussion around it though, given the more recent uptick in the fervor to re-open schools...check out CA Governor Gavin Newsom's plan and the egg on his face around it, for more context. Anyhow, thanks again....great episode!
I have enjoyed every talk Liu has up on RUclips. As a Californian of Mid-Western origin, I constantly face assumptions by PMC members about people they have never met or who they employ but don't listen to as they are the ones giving orders. I am so sick of their answer to everything being, "The world is an abundant universe; just shift your attitude, and the money will show up." That's a ridiculous dismissal of class barriers to achievement. Also, when the underclass does manage to get the training that promises to jettison them past their class limitations, they are met with gatekeeping that comes off as nonsensical ("Right! So you have your little degree now, but it's all about CONNECTIONS, so maybe get a job at a Country Club to meet the people who you hope to work with in the future!") There are always excuses why there is no class mobility, but the truth is that the good jobs, good homes, good schools are informally reserved for those whose parents are already in that class, and there is no way they will have their precious Mozart Baby nudged out of the way by someone destined to serve him.
really? because the college-educated who participated in the social movements in France, Greece, Lebanon, Chile, and many other people didn't gatekeep progress maybe it's false consciousness in the US rather than some separate class
Have you ever looked at the ceiling in the average classroom-K-12 and higher ed? Ever notice all that black gunk accumulating around the vents? This is just one reason why faculty are raising hell about a return to in-person instruction. Who would want to breathe in that crap during normal times, let alone during a pandemic?
The whole thing about pmc parents raising kids with crazy amounts of curation and early competition in mind reminds me of the DFW short story Suicide as a Sort of Present
PMC position on barefoot doctors: _"Well, shoes increase the walking rate and thus the medical output speed of each doctor to most effectively deliver access to the most amount of baby-mozart injections, so I'm not sure anything new is required and in fact everything is absolutely fine, especially for me personally after I started meditating and eating organic."_
“The party that leans upon the workers but serves the bourgeoisie, in the period of the greatest sharpening of the class struggle, cannot but sense the smells wafted from the waiting grave.” ― Leon Trotsky, as quoted in Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs. I wonder if this refers to the PMC in the modern day?
This was good. The taste stuff especially. I worked for a tech services company in London and my main client was a publishing company with a several story office in the heart of zone 1. PMC central. It was quite a culture shock for me (and a fair few working class POC friends) and we often felt out of place. I think I was the only person I ever saw eat McDonald's whilst everyone else was eating Pret or Caffè Nero or "Leon"*. * I normally don't give McDonald's my money but I was going through a hard time.
This video is very misleading and inaccurate. Being a PMC is very challenging and very difficult to navigate worker’s needs with company goals. It takes both interests to work out for all
Awesome discussion! Jen, Aurelia and Catherine are always awesome. I don't understand the critique of vigilant parenting. If you know that organic carrots are healthier, why would you feed your child high fructose corn syrup? What's wrong with experimenting with pre-natal experiences? Why do you believe that PMC parenting is primarily motivated by belittling the working class or by virtue signaling, rather than wanting to raise their children healthy and virtuous (within the limits of the current political economic climate)? Must optimisation of capabilities be based on fear? Regarding an alliance with PMC, it's the wrong question. We should frame the struggle in terms of values and institutions, not about who is welcome and who is not. You three are PMC members. Does that mean you are not welcome? What do you mean by "get with the people" and "do the work that needs to be done"? I don't agree that we should not have analysis and strategy. In fact this show is doing precisely that! What's wrong with "studying the issues"? Why do you believe that the PMC does not want the masses of people to enjoy leisure or cultivate themselves? What was your reference to a vanguard? And the riot?
Managerial class is the natural consequence of scale and growth of realizable human desires. Given any practice, there will be problems faced in the practice and people will pool their knowledge together to resolve these problems and the distilled practices will be called best practices. If the need for the practice continues to grow, the need to disseminate these best practices will also continue to grow. This will lead to seminars, courses etc .... Masses of people want cars, so masses of workers are needed to produce these cars. These masses of people, manufacturing masses of cars needs massive coordination and organization called massive "managing" and hence a managerial group/class results. Solution, stop masses of people wanting masses of things and then you will not need mass managing and hence no managerial class.
This coincides *completely* with Matthew Crawford's brilliant 'Shop Class as Soulcraft' in which he explains the rise of the Managerial Class from the late 19th/early 20th c.( but essentially from the Industrial Revolution). He explains how the emergence of 'management' fragements the worker, separates the craft into sections and places a manager over each section. He does this in a non-Marxist way, somehow, and it's brilliant.
Those job classifications "defining the PMC" are fine for a putrid rough sketch, but are in fact grossly prejudicial and the most disgusting sort of stereotyping. For me, a far better definition is what'd I'd call more Žižekian: _"Someone well-educated but really stupid who votes for neoliberals not because there's no other choice, but because they want to."_ This fits with "Fear of Falling" because they vote for centrists because they think the centrists will at least preserve their social status, not realising neoliberalism is what is slowly eroding the middle class.
The UK's BBC, are also taking up Empathy Training. Check in at 22:10 for a briefing. If you're thinking of visiting, bring a knife and plenty of spare change and try to avoid Oxford Street.
The professor appears to think she is in a different class to the pmc and she probably is, as a producer of knowledge and of humans with knowledge (necessary for our economy), and I agree, maybe its even a higher class, but she's lucky to be in it as most of us are stuck in this lower pmc class, and doesn't really get what it's like surviving in the modern world if you are not an academic
1:27:10 exactly. can you imagine thousands to millions of joe six packs on their resort beaches, their ski slopes, or boating on the coasts? 🤣 "there goes the neighborhood"
btw I hope that no one takes from this that empathy itself is a problem (not saying that anyone here reduced it to something so simplistic). IMO the problem is PMC "performative" i.e. skillfully faked empathy. Real empathy needs to be deepened, universalized, and guided by critical reason and practice.
I think the PMC needs to get out of the Democratic Party and go build a sane Republican Party. We need to make the Democratic Party and actual Labor Party.
In-person teaching raised risks COVID-19 Keeping schools open in Sweden roughly doubled the risk that teachers would be diagnosed with the pandemic coronavirus in spring 2020, a study has found. It also raised the infection rate for their partners at home by 29% and for parents whose children attended in person by 17%, the authors reported on 11 February in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Researchers in Sweden took advantage of their country's detailed health registry and the fact that schools through ninth grade never closed (they implemented extra hand washing but no mask requirements), while grades 10 to 12 were taught remotely from 18 March 2020 until the end of June. Comparing infection rates in teachers and parents of ninth versus 10th graders let the researchers examine the effects of keeping schools open on two otherwise very similar groups, making the study one of the most precise to examine the risks of in-person schooling. The researchers noted that more stringent protections likely would have lowered the risks even further. Other researchers had struggled to distinguish the effects of school-based virus transmission because schools tended to close in concert with other restrictions. science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6531/760 Science 19 Feb 2021: Vol. 371, Issue 6531, pp. 760-761 DOI: 10.1126/science.371.6531.760 www.pnas.org/content/118/9/e2020834118 The effects of school closures on SARS-CoV-2 among parents and teachers PNAS March 2, 2021 118 (9) e2020834118; doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2020834118 Significance Many countries closed schools during the pandemic to contain the spread of SARS-CoV-2. Sweden closed upper-secondary schools, while lower-secondary schools remained open, allowing for an evaluation of school closures. This study analyzes the impact of school closures on the spread of SARS-CoV-2 by comparing groups exposed and not exposed to open schools. We find that exposure to open schools resulted in a small increase in infections among parents. Among teachers, the infection rate doubled, and infections spilled over to their partners. This suggests that keeping lower-secondary schools open had a minor impact on the overall spread of SARS-CoV-2 in society. However, teachers are affected, and measures to protect them could be considered.
23:22 Dear god, I know this person is just trying to be genuinely helpful, but this conversation is so viscerally abrasive in its aura of "philosopher king" pretension, so obviously super constricted in its purely individual lens. That book cover of the PMC dude looking in the mirror with the sole unconscious force of his material livelihood and meaning in life primarily defined through a desire to not be the "bronze soul" homeless person, or rather to be _above_ them in the social hierarchy, is so dead-on.
These people did not do their research. James Burnham - The Managerial Revolution, first coined this in 1941. Then read Samuel T Francis- The Leviathan and It's Enemies.
49:25 That Einstein guy made this argument as well and I heard he's pretty smart. monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/ Kind of also highlights Catherine's point about the schism between professional and managerial, as today I think Einstein would fall under that purely "professional" category ( _after_ he was a patent office worker of course) and thus all of these points would be rejected in the -feudal- managerial dynamic. *EDIT* 1:04:40 lol well shit, love Ariella, always on the same page.
My lord. We are living in a world of insanity taken to its extreme conclusion: they have to show off their solar panels because they know deep down they don’t deserve them. It was ever thus.
Like the talk. Think you guys are seriously under appreciating how bad it is for kids to be stuck at home all the time and how much this hurts lower income families. Respect to the teachers and all, but you gotta think about the kids first imo... otherwise I like where you guys are coming from.
I have never heard any middle manager claim superiority over blue collar workers or over anyone. She is speaking without the benefit of experience. In fact, in large corporations, it's the executive level which is blatant in their expression of superiority over everyone else - laborers, middle management, individual contributors. Catherine, you need to study before you speak.
On the topic of lower end PMC: I know a lot of employed architects and lawyers who are being massively exploited and won't unionise because they see themslves as better than the traditional working class. Literally earning less than secretaries, working 60 hours a week. That's what I call economic self-harm.
@@normankeena A) I'm not American, I'm applying the concept to Europe. B) What's wrong with abbreviations? C) Your study is from the 1950s. Times have changed massively, especially when it comes to the working conditions in the fields I've mentioned. Seeing as I am a (European) lawyer, I know a little about it.
wowowowow "economic self harm"
True, but when you are lower PMC and would actually love to unionize (my case), it's hard to find like-minded people, due to years of neo-liberal propaganda (sharing Polish perspective here, where coversations about class are really sort of taboo and using the word 'socialism' in a regular conversation makes you look crazy and I guess - an idiot who has not learned anything from history). And if you do find them, they are scared of losing their jobs and other employment prospects, especially those who have huge 30-year loans on their apartments (which are often shitty, btw) and/or, god forbid, kids. So in the long run it's self harm, but in the short term it is a result of trying to individually protect your basic security, which I kinda get. In this sense lower PMC faces working class challenges - with the exception of the pandemic: we didn't lose our jobs, we work from home.
@@kluskiztruskawkami Amen to that Kluski the neoliberal project out there has the same cause and effect out there as it does here. Im going conspiracy theorist for a moment. I bet in about 1978 no right when Reagan was declared the winner all the world leaders had a meeting with bankers, Wall Street executives , and others who are basically masters of the universe. At this meeting the world leaders were taught the New World Order neoliberaliam.
@@kluskiztruskawkami totally agree. I'm German, we have pretty similar issues here. I also understand people who, due to their own personal obligations, feel they can't unionise. However, at some point we have to break out of the vicious circle and that will take courage and sacrifice. Nothing has ever been won without it, and the fact that people are afraid of losing their jobs is a result of individualism and a lack of class solidarity. We should start by building class consciousness (if necessary without using the word), and by establishing values of solidarity between workers. It's a long way, but we have to start somewhere, preferrably now.
"im gonna become the most competitive in a world where collective action is impossible"
Such a brilliant summation of the 2020s zeitgeist
From the time I first discovered Catherine Liu’s writing, I have been blown away by her incisive take-no-prisoners wit and wisdom. This book is SO needed, RIGHT NOW. She’s right, nurses and secondary teachers finally told the lie of their PMC “preciousness” to fuck off. They recognized what the real deal was. Everyone else... HURRY UP. Jacobin, please have her come back regularly! This is the first time I’ve tuned in, and if it’s always this good... LOL! xoxox
Catherine Lieu's price on the PMC was brilliant. As a public school teacher in Australia, I recognise so much of what she describes, particularly the growth of compliance regimes at the expense of professionalism. In Australian education it has been dressed up as a heightening of our professional status but it has created a compliance regime that expands exponentially and makes us feel anything but professional. Also spot on when she says teachers who don't pursue managerial positions increasingly surrender their autonomy over their work.
It's the case in the U.S. too. Australia and the U.S. especially are very close to each other in social trends, which is unfortunate because it means both are extremely neoliberal.
Also true in Canada. What and how we teach is increasingly top down. Its a loss of autonomy for sure. If you have no interest in being in management, then your job is to be told what to do, what to say, what language to use, how and what to think. It's very frustrating for an independent-minded teacher. "If you do not speak the language you do not belong." That quote really resonated with me. Using certain phrases to signal that you share the values, mindset, world view of management are expected. Otherwise you mark yourself as an outsider.
@@miskaarpa3248 unfortunately, I think the corporatisation of education and culture of compliance is endemic throughout the advanced economies with the possible exception of Finland.
Maybe just stop being cowardly?
Isn't this the result of people with little principles being herded into their placements without considering the system they are working in and the result of their actions?
The problem I see is that you would need to gather around principles that are self organizing but you can't because you are easily manipulated and impractical.
Sad truth, but what are you going to do about it?
@@kingsleyoji649 given that I'm an active unionist, including being a representative, president of one of the largest associations within my union and a councillor for that association, I'm hardly a coward.
I led the school I work at in a revolt against a sitting principal who drove a corporate agenda and successfully overcame inaction from the department when we had two block closures due to asbestos.
So thanks for declaring me easily manipulated and calling me cowardly. Even your description of the system I work in demonstrates little understanding of what I was describing. Self-orgasnisng as you posit would result in nothing. It takes a concerted effort at industrial organising, something I have devoted my life to as a unionist, following I'm the footsteps of my father and his forbears.
When I was a kid, the term 'yuppie' (Young Urban Professional) was often applied to many PMCs. Another term that comes to mind here is 'opportunity hoarding'.
The story about the 'Lean In' woman refusing to engage with the predominantly female workers who were on strike at the hotel hosting her conference made me angry.
As a low-wage healthcare worker, all this empty display of liberal 'empathy' and 'solidarity' for frontline workers from people who get to stay home doing zoom conferences means nothing if it doesn't also help improve material conditions of all workers. We don't want applause, we want living wages and benefits, like paid sick and parental leave.
Very good post. Insightful. I don't know if you will ever reply to me, but as a Man, I am curious, do you think the 'lean in' woman boss types tend to be harder on their female or male colleagues? Or does it depend on the person?
1 year later, and Biden is preventing the rail workers from striking for paid sick leave.
I love the idea that painting a few lines on a parking spot is the institutional change we need.
That's such a great succinct way of putting it
We should be getting rid of parking spaces and massively expanding public transit while making our cities and neighborhoods more dense and walkable!!!
Wow. I've never heard from Catherine Liu before, but she's awesome!
PMC's who are broadly speaking "anti-worker" or lacking class consciousness are not always to be blamed individually, nor are corporations who furlough workers. Neoliberal governments play into the Fear of Falling, and the pandemic furlough of workers is a result of the government (the monopoly currency issuer) not providing wage subsidies. Because neoliberal government representatives are a systemic problem, a lot of the abominable thoughts and practices of the worst of the PMC are also stemming from systemic problems, not just from horrendous individual greed and pettiness. As I've learned more about socialism I often tell myself first think about the systemic structure, before blaming individuals.
Just come across this and cannot begin to describe how much I love these 3 women and what they stand for. I really feel seen and spoken to and held to account omggg
amen
I’m very right wing but I found all of this discussion very interesting
Great to hear that! It means we can have a conversation about the problems we have
That's great!! I see an overlap of about 75% in common concerns between the far left( what it is called in USA)*& a typical Trump/ Republican voter. I have both of these kinds of people in my life.
We all hate being condescended to; know that most politicians are all corrupt to to the core; that this country's economic system (neoliberalism) is not working for most of us and seems to only benefit the corporate elites and Wall Street; that we are sick of high taxes, which we never see the benefit of with our poor schools, bad roads, and lack of local services; and were beyond furious about only bailing out the banks in the crash of 2008.
If only these 2 sides could start talking together instead of hating each other, and falling for that old strategy of "divide & conquer" that elites have used for centuries to stay in control.
* I am considered far left in USA, but I am actually more like what a moderate Republican was in the 1950's!!! Weird, how distorted our labels are now politically in the USA.
i'm curious. how did you find this channel?
@@CP-ir3ft Reddit board posted it and I watched a few minutes to see. I ended up watching all of it
I’m really glad to hear that! Hopefully you can see that there is a growing section of the left who put the material needs of workers above woke culture war bs. Our goal is to empower people who understand that politicians don’t care about their needs but aren’t quite sure how to change that fact. Good luck on your political journey! There’s always so much left to learn..
This was fantastic! Totally the milieu I was raised in and there’s so many aspects of this that are relevant to my life as I look at grad school. Also this show is such good vibes, it’s always interesting and lighthearted even when it’s serious, always smart, Ariella and Jen are the best ❤️. New fave left show
I *love* Catherine Liu! More Ms Liu! I sincerely loved her interview with Bashkar on postmodernism and this was fantastic too!
So mad that I couldn't have had Catherine Liu as one of my professors back in uni...
It's in the managerial handbook, don't socialize with rank and file. It's a design, engineered to keep the workers in "their place"...and the managing class against them.
this is one of your best talks yet. thank you all so much!!
give props to the author - the great Barbara Ehrenreich! "Nickle and Diming..." is a must read too.
Most of my professional career in healthcare was spent caring for the poor, & especially the homeless.
I am totally comfortable among them, in fact, more comfortable than with middle class people!
But, I do have to say that they are " impulsive" ( that middle class word)--- they live in the moment. One example: $600 spent on a wedding dress, that was their rent money, but a nice dress for their daughter was a higher priority. They got evicted because of this decision. Life in the moment.
You must spend lots of time, years in fact, with them to really understand how these folks live and often thrive in their poverty.
I have an unusual unique perspective of these class issues.
I got to start writing and contributing to this discussion more broadly.
I'm curious about how you are connecting your comment to what was discussed in this episode; perhaps itsjust me, but I don't see what your comment has to do with the PMC and what was discussed...would be interested in hearing more if you are interested in parsing your point out more.
Well, I would agree that people who are poor or otherwise on the margins of society do tend to be more impulsive, but in my experience it’s not usually causal of their poverty, but a reaction to it. To make decisions that are oriented towards the long term you need confidence that their IS a long term. The PMC person dutifully puts money in their 401k because they know they’re going to retire one day. The poor person says, fuck it I’m going to spend my last dime on a fun time cause I’m not going to have any savings regardless, might as well have some fun, and that’s a rational decision when you have no expectations from the future.
It relates to Dr Liu's claim that the PMC believes that working class people are poor because they are not managing their impulses.
I don't know if they are worse at managing their impulses than middle class or PMC or rich people but such spending impulses impact poor people more.
Dear David, Exactly! That is my point, living in the moment, because who knows what your future will be in a day, a week, a month, in 10 years.
Middle Class folks tend to defer, the lowest classes enjoy their life, as best as they can, in the moment.
There is great irony in the pursuit of peace and mindfulness in all this practice of yoga and Buddhism by comfortable people; when these homeless folks, in their resilience, humor, and sharp wits & smarts could teach a person so much about " mindfulness", which is just another name for living in the moment and Carpe Diem.
These folks do what they can to survive. If anyone would listen, they have much to teach us.
This is the best fucking thing I've seen in years. I shared with friends. You made my Saturday. Don't ever stop !
Never heard of Catherine Liu before today and holy shit. What a badass!
47:00 So true. Medical school admission councils love to see "managers" and "leaders."
Bang on regarding a potential pivot for PMC or what I have been calling knowledge workers.... and the risk of "spending too much time with their children"... and then going against the teachers' unions. I am a former teacher but member of my professional association in Ontario and was dismayed that in our jurisdiction the gov was not taking seriously concerns of unions. It was very threatening and terrifying. I also have a background in distance education and online learning and the Google Classroom model and 3 hours of videoconferencing are an anomoly... and not pedagogically sound for a four year old.(or even adults). I am now horrified to try to multitask and work in the private sphere and co-teach my wee one also in the private sphere with cameras on for Zoom or Google classroom all day.... an erosion of public and private sphere with what feels like videosurveillance.. and feeling anxiety at not being able to concentrate or submit work requiring work managers and directors are now expecting output whereas last spring there was some leeway. And the lack of solidarity is disgusting with people thinking of their individual situation and not the collectivity ie teachers' unions or basic income support during pandemic which had been available. Mask shaming and blaming individuals is also very concerning. Thank you for these analyses.
I honestly think that putting little kids in front of the computer for anything but a one button game is unfortunate. I will say unfortunate but I am thinking: sick, unhealthy, unproductive, depravation, torture, concentration camp, but mostly drone training. I don't mean drone pilot training, but it is kind of that too, but I mean the kid is being trained to be a drone. School is for socialization and the push to make kids consume training or "education" over the computer is nothing more than a concentration camp. Of course when kids get older they can do math, reading, software training on the computer, but really the only one of those where the computer is indispensable is software training and computer science. I don't have kids, but I think remote "learning" remote screen conditioning is not healthy. I think the only reason a kid needs a screen is to talk to a family member or friend, that's it.
Never heard of these folks, wonderful conversation
Just bought the book! Excellent interview!
This is my favourite jacobin show hands down. Please have the three of you on together again.
This is so enlightening with respect to our current paranoid culture.
Please talk about PMC sex, sexuality and relationships next time!!
Wonderful conversation.
This was such an interesting discussion. So much to think about and so much to read!!
GREAT SHOW. Jen, I really really want to thank you for your segment...this is the first time that I have heard ANYONE DISCUSSING SCHOOL RE-OPENINGS in this way. Even in left media, there's the same nonsense around "schools don't seem to be places of viral transmission"....this is complete gaslighting. Would love to see Paul discuss the school re-opening debate, from his perspective as a teacher. AND YEP, THANKS FOR NAMING THE VERY REAL HOSTILITY TOWARDS TEACHERS' UNIONS. People have decoupled teaching from labor, even though teachers are also workers.
Also, Ariella...YES. Pregnancy parking spots at Google...jeez. AMAZING SEGMENT.
Paul spoke a little about this in an interview over the summer! www.jacobinmag.com/2020/07/teachers-union-schools-strike-covid
@@JacobinMag Thank you! Great interview. Would love to see an updated interview or discussion around it though, given the more recent uptick in the fervor to re-open schools...check out CA Governor Gavin Newsom's plan and the egg on his face around it, for more context. Anyhow, thanks again....great episode!
Catherine Liu is so cool
I really enjoy Jen Pan and Ariella Thornhill. great content Jacobin!
I have enjoyed every talk Liu has up on RUclips. As a Californian of Mid-Western origin, I constantly face assumptions by PMC members about people they have never met or who they employ but don't listen to as they are the ones giving orders. I am so sick of their answer to everything being, "The world is an abundant universe; just shift your attitude, and the money will show up." That's a ridiculous dismissal of class barriers to achievement. Also, when the underclass does manage to get the training that promises to jettison them past their class limitations, they are met with gatekeeping that comes off as nonsensical ("Right! So you have your little degree now, but it's all about CONNECTIONS, so maybe get a job at a Country Club to meet the people who you hope to work with in the future!") There are always excuses why there is no class mobility, but the truth is that the good jobs, good homes, good schools are informally reserved for those whose parents are already in that class, and there is no way they will have their precious Mozart Baby nudged out of the way by someone destined to serve him.
4:00
The PMC act as gatekeepers. So if you are no college educated, but you best them in the workplace, the bar you from promotion or progress.
really? because the college-educated who participated in the social movements in France, Greece, Lebanon, Chile, and many other people didn't gatekeep progress maybe it's false consciousness in the US rather than some separate class
@Abel Abel “Professional Managerial Class.” Great discussion but over use of acronyms, jargon, and exclusive lingo is so PMC!
@Abel Abel professional managerial class
Have you ever looked at the ceiling in the average classroom-K-12 and higher ed? Ever notice all that black gunk accumulating around the vents? This is just one reason why faculty are raising hell about a return to in-person instruction. Who would want to breathe in that crap during normal times, let alone during a pandemic?
The whole thing about pmc parents raising kids with crazy amounts of curation and early competition in mind reminds me of the DFW short story Suicide as a Sort of Present
It is quite sad that so many people in the PMC are caught up in identity issues rather than uniting against the rich for the benefit of all.
This was such a great discussion! Kudos to all three for adding a great deal of humour to it as well.
Loving your channel and deep analysis 🧐 if we criticise the middle classes/PMC in the UK we get labelled “far right”
.... and censored 🤬 the Guardian newspaper has blocking comments here since about 2010. They are supposed to be left wing FFS
Have a look at the article about the 9% in the Atlantic magazine.
After listening to Jen talk, I had to check if the playback speed was x1.25 or not.
this is a damn good talk, thank you for posting it.
PMC position on barefoot doctors:
_"Well, shoes increase the walking rate and thus the medical output speed of each doctor to most effectively deliver access to the most amount of baby-mozart injections, so I'm not sure anything new is required and in fact everything is absolutely fine, especially for me personally after I started meditating and eating organic."_
“The party that leans upon the workers but serves the bourgeoisie, in the period of the greatest sharpening of the class struggle, cannot but sense the smells wafted from the waiting grave.” ― Leon Trotsky, as quoted in Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs. I wonder if this refers to the PMC in the modern day?
Good question.
Such an underrated channel, they should be getting millions not thousands of views!
I want to be best friends with Catherine Liu!
Catherine I think you are AMAZING!!!!!
catherine liu broke that shit down
Catherine is talking about people like you you know
This was good. The taste stuff especially.
I worked for a tech services company in London and my main client was a publishing company with a several story office in the heart of zone 1. PMC central. It was quite a culture shock for me (and a fair few working class POC friends) and we often felt out of place.
I think I was the only person I ever saw eat McDonald's whilst everyone else was eating Pret or Caffè Nero or "Leon"*.
* I normally don't give McDonald's my money but I was going through a hard time.
how is the British McD fish sandwich? just as processed as all?
Thank you very much- I thought I read all of Ehrenreich.
"You just learn so much about solidarity." yep!
I don't understand what the hosts and the guest have against the "PMC", since they manifestly belong to it...
Professor Catherine Liu is my hero! I canvassed for Bernie too. I
great discussion. thx for sharing!
This was REALLY good
So well done, guys.
Amazing talk
I have been a member of the PMC
This video is very misleading and inaccurate. Being a PMC is very challenging and very difficult to navigate worker’s needs with company goals. It takes both interests to work out for all
Good conversation!! Smart, smart, smart!!!⚡⚡💓💓💓🌠🌠🌠🌠
Awesome discussion! Jen, Aurelia and Catherine are always awesome.
I don't understand the critique of vigilant parenting. If you know that organic carrots are healthier, why would you feed your child high fructose corn syrup? What's wrong with experimenting with pre-natal experiences? Why do you believe that PMC parenting is primarily motivated by belittling the working class or by virtue signaling, rather than wanting to raise their children healthy and virtuous (within the limits of the current political economic climate)? Must optimisation of capabilities be based on fear?
Regarding an alliance with PMC, it's the wrong question. We should frame the struggle in terms of values and institutions, not about who is welcome and who is not. You three are PMC members. Does that mean you are not welcome?
What do you mean by "get with the people" and "do the work that needs to be done"? I don't agree that we should not have analysis and strategy. In fact this show is doing precisely that! What's wrong with "studying the issues"? Why do you believe that the PMC does not want the masses of people to enjoy leisure or cultivate themselves? What was your reference to a vanguard? And the riot?
its interesting to get a glimpse into your world.... thanks for putting some interesting words to things....
Managerial class is the natural consequence of scale and growth of realizable human desires. Given any practice, there will be problems faced in the practice and people will pool their knowledge together to resolve these problems and the distilled practices will be called best practices. If the need for the practice continues to grow, the need to disseminate these best practices will also continue to grow. This will lead to seminars, courses etc ....
Masses of people want cars, so masses of workers are needed to produce these cars. These masses of people, manufacturing masses of cars needs massive coordination and organization called massive "managing" and hence a managerial group/class results. Solution, stop masses of people wanting masses of things and then you will not need mass managing and hence no managerial class.
really good comments regarding childrearing; she puts good words to these phenomena
An all-women interracial panel not talking about feminism/racism is nice to see.
"...so we are all just as badly educated as your average PHD". 😆
(in re the discussion of ads after 1:21:00) The Dow Chemical Company's "the Human Element" ad is another egregious example of the 'human empathy' ad
This coincides *completely* with Matthew Crawford's brilliant 'Shop Class as Soulcraft' in which he explains the rise of the Managerial Class from the late 19th/early 20th c.( but essentially from the Industrial Revolution). He explains how the emergence of 'management' fragements the worker, separates the craft into sections and places a manager over each section. He does this in a non-Marxist way, somehow, and it's brilliant.
I would like to see Catherine Liu and Michael Malice go at it!!!!!
Those job classifications "defining the PMC" are fine for a putrid rough sketch, but are in fact grossly prejudicial and the most disgusting sort of stereotyping. For me, a far better definition is what'd I'd call more Žižekian: _"Someone well-educated but really stupid who votes for neoliberals not because there's no other choice, but because they want to."_ This fits with "Fear of Falling" because they vote for centrists because they think the centrists will at least preserve their social status, not realising neoliberalism is what is slowly eroding the middle class.
Yes, the job-categories are a rough definition, but that definition is terrible.
Catherine Liu is so fucking funny.
The UK's BBC, are also taking up Empathy Training. Check in at 22:10 for a briefing. If you're thinking of visiting, bring a knife and plenty of spare change and try to avoid Oxford Street.
And if you're allergic to PMCs avoid Surrey.
this video helped me deprogram myself
Does anyone have links to the studies that Jen Pan sites around 17:00 min mark?
Here's a good rundown! theintercept.com/2021/01/06/school-reopening-studies-covid/
Ariella is an absolute Doll.
hi, could you please turn on the "automatic subtitles" option ? would love to listen to Catherine but english isn't my first language
Wow, 12 months later that PMC authoritarianism prediction was spot on the mark
How would you classify commission sales?
Two kinds of work can be defined as
PMC's having to deal with their kids during lockdown reminded them of how they aren't special.
Always hated Sheryl and her kind of ideology, great work pointing it out.
I love this!
The professor appears to think she is in a different class to the pmc and she probably is, as a producer of knowledge and of humans with knowledge (necessary for our economy), and I agree, maybe its even a higher class, but she's lucky to be in it as most of us are stuck in this lower pmc class, and doesn't really get what it's like surviving in the modern world if you are not an academic
1:27:10 exactly. can you imagine thousands to millions of joe six packs on their resort beaches, their ski slopes, or boating on the coasts? 🤣 "there goes the neighborhood"
What is the intro music?
Not sure, but it sounded similar to mashups like Zonkey's "Rose Emoji".
it's an original Jacobin song! I'll be releasing the full version soon so follow me if you want to hear it :)
@@zonkey3850 follow you on your youtube channel or elsewhere? Been waiting for you to release the full version of this, lol!
@@La_xula_dorada ah I'm sorry!! work has gotten crazy. I'll announce it both on RUclips and Instagram once it's out
@@zonkey3850 got it. No rush! I was mostly joking
omg so funny... it doesn't take senior management lean in superstar to come up with pregnancy parking idea... it takes a union
btw I hope that no one takes from this that empathy itself is a problem (not saying that anyone here reduced it to something so simplistic). IMO the problem is PMC "performative" i.e. skillfully faked empathy. Real empathy needs to be deepened, universalized, and guided by critical reason and practice.
I think the PMC needs to get out of the Democratic Party and go build a sane Republican Party. We need to make the Democratic Party and actual Labor Party.
_Cuomo-sexual_ ?
...dear god...I hate that I know this is a thing now.
Anyway, fantastic discussion.
Such an interesting discussion, wow. I'll be thinking about the indulgence of "I'm still studying..." for a while (yes, I see the irony there).
Sry, who or what is PMC?
"Manage Your Affect": There's a t-shirt slogan.
instant like
In-person teaching raised risks
COVID-19
Keeping schools open in Sweden roughly doubled the risk that teachers would be diagnosed with the pandemic coronavirus in spring 2020, a study has found. It also raised the infection rate for their partners at home by 29% and for parents whose children attended in person by 17%, the authors reported on 11 February in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Researchers in Sweden took advantage of their country's detailed health registry and the fact that schools through ninth grade never closed (they implemented extra hand washing but no mask requirements), while grades 10 to 12 were taught remotely from 18 March 2020 until the end of June. Comparing infection rates in teachers and parents of ninth versus 10th graders let the researchers examine the effects of keeping schools open on two otherwise very similar groups, making the study one of the most precise to examine the risks of in-person schooling. The researchers noted that more stringent protections likely would have lowered the risks even further. Other researchers had struggled to distinguish the effects of school-based virus transmission because schools tended to close in concert with other restrictions.
science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6531/760
Science 19 Feb 2021:
Vol. 371, Issue 6531, pp. 760-761
DOI: 10.1126/science.371.6531.760
www.pnas.org/content/118/9/e2020834118
The effects of school closures on SARS-CoV-2 among parents and teachers
PNAS March 2, 2021 118 (9) e2020834118; doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2020834118
Significance
Many countries closed schools during the pandemic to contain the spread of SARS-CoV-2. Sweden closed upper-secondary schools, while lower-secondary schools remained open, allowing for an evaluation of school closures. This study analyzes the impact of school closures on the spread of SARS-CoV-2 by comparing groups exposed and not exposed to open schools. We find that exposure to open schools resulted in a small increase in infections among parents. Among teachers, the infection rate doubled, and infections spilled over to their partners. This suggests that keeping lower-secondary schools open had a minor impact on the overall spread of SARS-CoV-2 in society. However, teachers are affected, and measures to protect them could be considered.
1:24:00 "The credential fetish" - I call it a person's pedigree. There's Ivy League, Stanford and then everyone else (including me).
Thomas Sowell has a great essay/book on this called "Vision of the Anointed". Exactly the same sentiment and elucidated a bit more
Yes democratize the enterprise!!!!!!!
23:22
Dear god, I know this person is just trying to be genuinely helpful, but this conversation is so viscerally abrasive in its aura of "philosopher king" pretension, so obviously super constricted in its purely individual lens. That book cover of the PMC dude looking in the mirror with the sole unconscious force of his material livelihood and meaning in life primarily defined through a desire to not be the "bronze soul" homeless person, or rather to be _above_ them in the social hierarchy, is so dead-on.
40:00 when the other slaves are elitist 🙄
Yes
These people did not do their research. James Burnham - The Managerial Revolution, first coined this in 1941. Then read Samuel T Francis- The Leviathan and It's Enemies.
49:25
That Einstein guy made this argument as well and I heard he's pretty smart.
monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/
Kind of also highlights Catherine's point about the schism between professional and managerial, as today I think Einstein would fall under that purely "professional" category ( _after_ he was a patent office worker of course) and thus all of these points would be rejected in the -feudal- managerial dynamic.
*EDIT* 1:04:40 lol well shit, love Ariella, always on the same page.
My lord. We are living in a world of insanity taken to its extreme conclusion: they have to show off their solar panels because they know deep down they don’t deserve them. It was ever thus.
1:24:00 pmc's pretending meritocracy exists
Like the talk. Think you guys are seriously under appreciating how bad it is for kids to be stuck at home all the time and how much this hurts lower income families. Respect to the teachers and all, but you gotta think about the kids first imo... otherwise I like where you guys are coming from.
I have never heard any middle manager claim superiority over blue collar workers or over anyone. She is speaking without the benefit of experience. In fact, in large corporations, it's the executive level which is blatant in their expression of superiority over everyone else - laborers, middle management, individual contributors. Catherine, you need to study before you speak.