Monarch 10EE Drive Retrofit 4:Wiring the Component Panel and Lathe Controls
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2022
- Monarch 10EE Drive Retrofit 4:Wiring the Component Panel and Lathe Controls
I am retrofitting the old tube based DC drive system - the "works in a drawer" from a circa 1952 Monarch 10EE Lathe with modern electrical components.
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Great job Keith but it seems that no one here is acknowledging the effort that John the electrical engineer has done to engineer the circuits and provide the electrical wiring diagrams for you to use. Therefore.....GREAT JOB John, hats off to you for helping Keith with the electrical engineering on this project!
Yes, I agree, thanks John for a job well done!
Great call out to John, working with old electrical equipment, great thank you for helping Keith. :)
Keith mention shim several times in each video, so I know that he is very appreciative of his help. There's been many times for me when a call to an engineer would have been very helpful!
@@davidgagnon2849 Guess you missed my point.....read my post again. I intimated that most of the COMMENTS praising Keith made no mention of John. I know that Keith appreciates John but expected that the commenters would acknowledge the efforts of John as well.
@@rjw8316 Yes sir. I understand.
Each output of the printer has a length of "margin" or overrun. Printing each label individually burns a LOT of product in the margins. A method for more efficient usage is to create a single printing of multiple labels separated by an appropriate number of spaces. Print and snip off each label with scissors.
Agreed... I've used the same printer at a previous job. I believe they designed it to waste label material so you have to buy more. Epson makes one that will print and retract the material afterwards to save it. What I would do is start with a period, then 2 spaces, the wire #, 4 spaces, wire #, 4 spaces... etc. and end with 2 spaces and a period. Print, then cut the with a scissor. . 10 20 30 40 50 . And I always underline the numbers. so there's no ambiguity with sizes and nines! :)
A major complaint of mine with Brother labelmakers.
True, I have that printer and bought a roll of the heat shrink. I was very disappointed because there is hardly no material in that roll due to the thickness. Dymo tapes are ridiculously expensive. I now buy off-brands from Amazon for twice the product and half the price.
Yes. That’s true with ALL label printers. The printer needs a certain length in front of the label in order for the rollers to pull the label through and to move through the guides, printing continuously, giving it whatever spacing needed for the pieces is the best way to go.
@@melgross The Brady printer makes individual self laminating labels in a number of widths lengths and colors. The printer doesn't waste space. It can be operated from the keyboard or from a computer connection. It is my go to printer for one or two offs up to ad hoc projects. When I do a major product I use the 8.5x11 sheets, get the data from the plans and safe a lot of time.
Keith is a mad genius. He intentionally didn’t install grommets. By doing so he increased his RUclips comments tenfold and has generated enough revenue to buy grommets.
My favorite part of any electrical project is the smoke test.
The spark test works well, also!
@@plakor6133 Yeah, sometimes you see the smoke, and sometimes you get to ride the lightning.
@@etheroar6312 That would depend on the drives having the Smoke Emitting Diodes or the lightening spark gaps.
Just like Wranglerstar who wears 2 watches and makes money when people ask why.
Nice job except you REALLY needed to put rubber grommets in those pass through panel holes, any vibration over time will chaff the wire insulation and short the wires to the panel hole and thats gonna be a really bad day. ALWAYS use a grommet where wires pass through a metal bulkhead like a cars firewall or computer case panels, spoken by an ex mechanic and PC builder-- people arre always running fog light and other wires through the firewall with no grommets and I once saw my buddys nice '69 Roadrunners entire dashboard wiring harness melt down and fill the car with smoke while driving on the local cruise strip back in the 70's. We had to gut the dash and replace the entire harness - took a whole weekend. All because he ran wires through the bare sheetmetal holes in the firewall.
I agree, but I'd use a nylon caterpillar grommet instead. The rubber will break down eventually. I'm not sure why you didn't clean the machine up before you started, but I'm sure you would have had a reason. Nice job Keith!
Pro tip: 2x2in Open Slot Wiring Cable Raceway Duct with Cover
@@daveschroedersworkshop4479 I agree with the nylon caterpillar grommet at this stage of the game. Before wiring, I would suggest an insulated chase nipple and locknut. The likelyhood of damage will depend upon the pressure of the wiring harness against the hardness of the metal plate (and the frequency of any movement).
I'm pretty sure he knows this. This ain't his first rodeo.
Chapter 38 of the georgia state minimum electrical code states "Securely fastened bushings or grommets shall be provided to protect wiring run through openings in metal framing members." for unarmored cable.....
Keith, I strongly recommend you put grommets in the large holes or else vibration will cut wires after a few years.
I did that for a living, but now retired. I loved it. Wiring panels and control cabinets was therapeutic to me. Except when I couldn't have full control of the machine involved because they couldn't shut down production. That made it tedious. Yes, we did have to finally shut down the equipment to make the final hookup once everything was ready.
I would highly recommend that you use grommets to protect the wired!!
Should have been done first!
Definitely!!!
Keith,
I hope when you are finished you create an "as-built" set of wiring diagrams and create a protected storage area for them. I would suggest you laminate them to help protect them against damage over time. An instruction book would also be a good idea.
It would also be a good idea to add a USB flash drive to the package.
Bob
Laminate the as-built AND put a copy INSIDE the lathe.
Where I work we have a rule that any wires that go into screw terminals have to be fitted with ferrules. Some companies do it even for every terminal, even the spring clamp style. I would recommend that too, since it makes the wires more orderly, avoids breaking of the uninsulated portion by bending (if you use the ferrules with collar, highly recommended) and also avoids stray copper fibers accidentally creating short circuits. I'm also a little confused by the connector terminals you have, usually there are ground terminals that have the proper color (here it's green-yellow) and have an electric connection to the rail they're mounted to.
That heatshrink printer looks awesome, really handy stuff. I'm more familiar with labels that get tied to the wire with zip ties or with special transparent sleeves. There are even tiny numbers and letters for pulling over wires that you can put together however you need them.
Anyway, you did a very clean job, should be enjoyable to work on if you have to do some maintenance.
Btw. how well is this protected from dirt and dust inside the machine?
Also, four quadrant operation means that you can run a motor as motor as well as generator/active brake both in forward and reverse, are you sure that's what you're talking about?
I strongly agree with other commentors. Those wires definitely need to go through your mounting panel with grommets! I have been designing and maintaining electronics for nearly 50 years, and could not begin to estimate the numbers of problems i have had to deal with, when proper wire protections were not utilized.
In addition, long wires need to be constrained from moving under vibration even if they are not obviously rubbing against something.
I wish I had contacted you earlier, I did that type of work for 50 years and I would have been glad to have wired your panel for you. I would have done that just to have something to do, retirement is boring. I am not terribly far from you in Savannah.
Wiring is a matter of practice, it always takes longer the first time. But it is important to number the cables so that you can check them later. Then you keep the overview and don't end up standing in front of a rat's nest full of cables of the same color and without markings. Well done!
My wiring is mostly on motorcycles and Jeeps, but that printer for heat shrink would be fabulously useful. Rolling back now to get the maker / model info. Thanks for the very informative video!
The new transformer makes for a much cleaner lathe exterior. I have designed and built many machine control panels. Doing wiring like this is tedious, but the care to label and run the wires sure makes working on them down the road so much easier. Another thing to think about, is sometimes to leave a longer run in some cases between components so you could pull them out to work on them without having to fight short wire runs. Great job Keith, thanks very much for sharing.
Keith a dc motor here in the UK that had series and shunt fields was known as a compound motor as you correctly state the speed is controlled by the shunt field which must never loose it supply when the motor is running , it would then become a traction motor ie max torque on startup ( like a steam engine) but very little speed control that's where the shunt field come in that is the speed control . the number of poles has little to do but is more related to the size on the motor I have worked on does with 6 poles and well as intermediate series poles know as com poles they aid start up under load , biggest DC motor I have worked on was name plated at 150 hp but I have seen them with the amp meter pegged out at 1500 amp at 220vdc and the motor was not Evan warm
Good use for Keith's old hair dryer. He has upgraded to the doenut cut !! .great job .
It's good to see you covering some electrical engineering topics. Always learning a lot with each video as always. Thanks!
Still think you will need groumits for your pass through holes on the plate inside the lathe. Good job on the wireing Keith
TCO
KEITH, LOOKS GREAT, CAN'T WAIT, LET'S GO TO WORK...
Very nice work. Great collaboration! I can’t wait to see the old girl running as she should!
Going to follow this series closely and I look forward to the sharing of the plans I will more than likely be doing the same to my 10ee
Your opening theme produces ASMR.
Every wire brings you one step closer to having a great working piece of history. Very nice work with the wiring. I appreciate how organized and neat everything is.
That's an amazing job with the wiring and will make maintaining that so much easier in the future.
The motivation and energy you demonstrate is uplifting
4:13 I built and repaired broadcast facilities for twenty years. Every new or replacement wire had a label with clear heatshrink over it. I would've loved to have the Rhino labeling for all that! I have one now! The Rhino branded labels are the only ones I've found that stick reliably to Kennedy Crinkle Brown paint.
Keith, thank you for using a heatgun on it instead of a lighter or torch. The latter will scorch or burn through heatshrink, which gives a project a less than professional appearance. Nice job. IMHO, the only thing that would look better would be waxed lacing cord on the bundles, but that would just be showing off.
Great content as always. love that little Monarch.
Looks great!
Very neat job
looks great!
Very nice work Sir.
Very professionally done!
Thanks for sharing 👍
Great work Keith.
Excellent and detailed work. Well done 👍
Wow, nice progress.
Really enjoyed the wiring aspect!
Very professional looking work
Pretty cool , old meets new !
I am really enjoying this series, can't wait to see the spindle turning. Keep up the good work!
WOW! This is SO ambitious! Fun to watch you work this puzzle out.
Thank you Keith!
Thanks for sharing
Well done!
Great job
Lots of work there for everybody involved! 👍
Great video Keith, keep'um coming....
I have that exact label printer. It does great. Get after market heat shrink labels off the jungle site to save yourself some money.
Great content Keith! I remember you saying in a earlier episode that you would be adding rubber grommets to the drilled holes later. I won’t point out any “better” way to do _____. Your channel your rules. 😜 Thank you so much for your great content.
Keith you always do such a great job of explaining your work step by step thank you so much for your extra effort and teaching us this stuff
I like that printer. Being able to put circuit numbers on the wires is awesome to trace wiring.
Nice work Keith. Can't wait to see this old beauty running. Hopefully the new electronics system will work and become something others with this style lathe will be able to use.
Learning new skills!
Wow! That is one seriously complicated machine- very clever. Also like to add, there are some incredibly complicated castings ,- a work of art. Your posts are always very informative, - Thanks, & keep up the good work.😊
Thank you for sharing. 👍👀
GREAT JOB KEITH
Brings back memories. Spent the last 17 years wiring panels, some small, some as large as 6' x 6' that took 4 weeks to complete. We used self laminating vinyl labels {Panduit/LS8}. We also used ferrules {as noted below} helps keep wire strands from going where they shouldn't {I heard of one tech that wired 2ga into a hard to reach area and a stray strand or two touched the next phase, small explosion when the 480v was turned on!} Nice work!
better to take more time at the beginning than all the time it takes to troubleshoot mistakes later. Good stuff, Keith
I know the thru holes have been chamfered but wouldn't a chassis grommet be a better choice to protect the wires?
Really. Nice setup...fun work. I've got to see this work. I'm sure Rhee will be much demand for this whole setup. Thanks Keith
For not doing much of that kind of wiring, your work looks very nice. Good Job Keith!
Thanks for another informative video🤗😎🤗😎
It's nice to see old equipment updated to modern controlls. It's not a museum piece It's a working machine.
Very nice neat workmanship. I love this kind of project.
I did the Clough42 Electronic Lead screw on my old Atlas 618, and love the ease of use.
Very neat job mate. That could be a sideline business for you. Thanks for the video 👍🇦🇺
Keith always a pleasure to watch your channel. I know you put in a lot of effort to make your content interesting. I am a retired diesel mechanic and self-taught machinist and have learned a lot watching your videos. Great job!
Hi Keith - Well Done - so far - just have a look for "Quick Grommets" - easy to install, after the job is done !
Keith, nice work! I own and operate a small factory in Iowa and we have a dozen machines with professionally made custom control panels. Your panel compares very favorably with those professional panels! Keep up the good work. I build the mechanical part of the machines and I appreciate the effort and information you put into your videos.
Excellent Job! I hope that red wire is in the correct place.
Seriously good study in being focused on the results Keith. I hope you can find a can of that wonderous blue gray paint somewhere.
I’ve been using a hair dryer on heat shrink. Works well!
Wow.....impressive Kieth.
*- I wish I lived near you, Keith...I would volunteer to clean your machine with rumbling alcohol.*
*- A clean machine is so much nicer to look at on video and inspiring/encouraging for you to work on.*
Hey Keith, nice job! I follow you on Instagram and I'm sure you're tired of hearing about grommets 😂 I will however recommend ferrules for the ends of your stranded wires. Keeps strands secure in screw terminals, makes for a neat install and prevents stray strands from shorting out.
What kind of furreles sir and do you need to crimp them or will the screw crimp it to the wire.
@@MHolt3573 they crimp on. Ferrule kits with the crimping tool are available for cheap on Amazon
@@MHolt3573 they are called boot lace crimps in some areas.
Really great. Can't wait for the first power up. Turn it on and tune for maximum smoke.
Although the little label maker is neat, I prefer the BRADY self laminating labels. You can use their expensive machine, or buy them in sheets which can be laser printed or hand lettered quickly. You wrap the label end on the wire and the tail is clear, so when wrapped all the way your label is protected and the material almost grows together over time. No faffing around with a heat gun, etc. I do all my transmitter and studio equipment installs with them.
Good point about the labeling; however my experience with the self laminating labels has been that after several years in a hot machine environment, the labels will begin to unpeel and in the fullness of time will drop off. The heat shrink tubing, if not damaged will not fall. I pray that my 20+ years of panels built will someday be uncovered by archaeologists.
@@johannesnoneoftheabove9957 odd. Never had that issue with Brady labels even in transmitters and hot equipment cabinets,
@@The_DuMont_Network Labels falling off was my experience with building wiring harnesses for industrial air compressors.
@@johannesnoneoftheabove9957 The wraparound self laminating type seem to stay the longest. On heavy duty or high heat/vibration applications, I will add a second label where possible.
@@The_DuMont_Network That should help.
I’ve never seen a DC drive being used to control a field current before, but that’s an interesting idea.
The 514C drive has a rectifier to provide the field with a constant voltage but T a limit of 3A. You would need to supply the FL1 and FL2 terminals with 120v AC and you’d get 108VDC from the drive.
If your motor requires field weakening to give you a full range of speeds, things get VERY tricky. I would think that would require a tachogenerator or an encoder at the minimum. You need full field current at low speeds and a weakened field for high speeds to reduce the back EMF from the motor. Dangerous to do without a closed loop speed control.
I think you did a decent job explaining it. I didn't fully follow before, now i understand. Surprised you could get 2 motor controllers to work like that for this.
I was somewhat confused by his description of the 3 wire control Start-Stop Switch. My experience has been that the power will come in the normally closed Stop button contacts, thru to one side of the normally open Start button and a normally open contact on the motor starter/drive/control relay. then when the Start button is pushed the motor starter/drive/control relay contact will close thereby causing the machine to run. Pushing the Stop button will cause it to stop. This was done to minimize the possibility of unintended starting due to a short circuit. Many times the Stop button will have a large manual E-Stop mechanism to aid safe operation.
Beautiful machine the 10EE is. Too complex though. I love my South Bend Heavy 10. Nice and simple.
Man, even your heat gun is from the 1940's...😆 Love the project, learning a lot!
As a retired Electrician that has dabbled way to much in motor control, I have found that you will run into MES. That's mysterious electrical s... I have always found that if you get a big bag of FM... F...... magic it helps. Carry on my wayward son.
Keith, As an electrician, the disconnect should be a Nema 3R rated and the power cord should come out the bottom of the disconnect. Nema 3r disconnect is design to protect the power from coolant and metal chips.
nice job! 👍👍👌👌✔✔
A dc motor has an armature and a field. As you mentioned many small dc motor use a permanent magnet for the field, thus there are only two wires for the armature. The direction the motor rotates is determined by the direction of the current thru the armature. So swapping the two armature wires will reverse the rotation. The amount of voltage applied to the armature determines the speed. Applying full voltage, 240 in your case, will cause the motor to run at “base speed”. Your larger drive provides the armature voltage based on a speed reference typically coming from a potentiometer. The amount of current going thru the armature is determined by the mechanical load on the shaft. Base speed is determined by a specified amount of field current, which apparently is being controlled by your smaller drive. Once you are at base speed you can reduce the amount of field current to increase the motor speed to “top speed”. The field typically has two wires so your motor may have two fields since you mentioned 6 wires. Perhaps so you can connect in series or parallel. A word of caution here. If the field current is lost while the motor is running the speed will increase instantly until the motor destroys itself. I’ve seen it happen. Most industrial drives have a field loss circuit to protect from this. Small chance of it happening but somethimg to be aware of.
the internet is all about sharing an discussion that's the way things get improved
as for the wire strippers find one that work "like on tv" is hard,
but I happy with my YATO YT-2275
no set screw, just put any wire in and no damage to wire and no recut
I'll echo what lots of others are saying. Great job, but please use grommets and ferrules to avoid issues with vibration related failures down the road.
Keith, I would love to see an episode with John on speakerphone going over all the test points and voltages with you on the voltmeter.
I have had a few printers over the years to mark wires and have never been happy with them probably because they are not used often enough and the supplies are expensive. About 4 or 5 years ago I bought a package of small Avery lables and preprinted a few sets of numbers for the job, extra sets for mistakes. I would install the label then use clear heat shrink for the protection. Takes a little longer but good results. I hope this helps someone else in the future.
Hey Keith, you should do this and you should do that and yada yada. Haha kidding. Its his lathe and he is the one building it yall. This is not his first rodeo and I'm sure he knows when/where he needs a grommet.
The problem is that, as he’s admitted a number of times over the years, he doesn’t know that much about these circuits. He doesn’t know how to build these circuits. I’ve designed and build commercial electrical and electronic equipment. A number of others here are also professional electrical engineers and electricians. We’ve ALL warned what can happen without grommets. For some reason, so far at least, and unusually for him, he hasn’t even acknowledged the advice. Considering how easy and cheap grommets for this are, it’s inexplicable as to why he seems so resistant to this advice -y’all.
Wire ferrules and crimper are an inexpensive great addition to that wire stripper.
Your Great!
Hi Keith, when you tighten up each connection, recommend that you do a tug test, lightly pull each wire to check that it has clamped correctly.
As an Amateur Radio Operator wiring such as this is old hat. 3 things, Silicon grommets, marine grade heat sealed crimp connectors, and Caig DeOxit for the switches, rheostats, and relays. Get the full strength topically applied with a brush version.
Great project Keith. There are several of the fantastic lathes out of service because there isn't a good program for replacing the outdated electronics. Hope you will be able to provide a good solution to this problem when you have finished and debugged installation.
Jack,
Out dated electronics might not be the modern way, but the original was subject to a great deal of development and plainly did work, and work well. It’s a pity that the skills required to repair the original are less plentiful. I’d be careful of thinking that old is wrong. Our forbears did the best with the limitations of the time, as I hope we do with our resources.
Nice!! Treading in unfamiliar territory = personal growth... :-)
super nice job.the only thing i would add is rubber grommets the you new board.
I've had good luck with the Parker 590+ DC Drives (which I think are a decendant of that 514C) running separate voltages for the armature and field. If I remember right, using a lower field voltage than armature was configurable via the drive parameters, but if you need a higher field voltage than armature you can provide two independant supplies, as long as they were in phase with each other (we used a zero phase shift transformer from the L1 / L2 connections to generate the field supply)
Because it's a programmable, digital drive the 590P also has plenty of IO connections for the control circuits so you would have been able to wire all of the push buttons / speed controls etc direct to the drive.
An absolutely beautiful job. Keith! If I might make a suggestion? If you ever sell this lathe, I know you will hand the new owner a copy of the wiring schematics. My suggestion is tucking a second copy- in a liquid proof tube perhaps- into one of those nooks in the lathe. Just in case someone further in the future needs to go all archaeological and figure things out.
And to think the guys and gals at Monarch did this without all the cool tools we have today and had to use vacuum tubes back in the day.
I believe the " cast iron cavity" is where the coolant pump and motor was mounted on the EE that I had.
if you lose where your at ground it and find it by going to ground i have done it on dc ships it does work