DAW vs BUS for Live Stream | ft. Jake Gosselin @Churchfront
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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Check out Jake's channel Churchfront:
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Example of a BUS live stream setup:
• Victory Church FOH Tec...
Example of a DAW live stream setup:
• Worship Broadcast Audi...
Do you need a DAW mix for your church's live stream, or will a simple Bus mix from the room mix work?
In this video, Kade and Jake Gosselin (of Churchfront) have a friendly debate over which you should choose and how your scenario might effect the answer.
This video is only a small part of the conversation. Join Inner Circle to view the whole live stream and live streams to come.
I run a DAW for my live stream for a couple reasons: One, our room is very problematic and needs a lot of compensation making it unsuitable for stream. Secondly, I like the quick ability to track the worship experience and refine the mix throughout the week and save as a Template. Additionally because we do this it makes the content much more readily available for some post production needs for our Media and marketing team. Aside from that I still run a stereo mix via a Matrix to my daw as well in the event I need to shift our stream mix to come from FOH due to a shortage of stream audio volunteers for that week. Plus, because we push our program feed to other areas of the building during additional services, I need the FOH mix to feed those areas when I don’t have a stream mix volunteer running the DAW.
We are a poor church, and have an old analog board, and I am stuck with a stereo out from a Yamaha EMX 5000-20, and I want the ability to mix individual channels for the livestream. I am assuming I will need a DAW, and a digital mixer sending channels out to the DAW. For now I am jumping through hoops to try and get the live broadcast to sound better as it is dry coming from that old analog board. So I EQ in the Atem mini, then it sends out to Vmix, and I have VST3 plugins for reverb/delay, etc for effects. The thing I do not like is not having the control, as anything I do affects the entire mix coming from the board. So I find myself sweeping on the paramentic eq, and doing the best I can to get things sounding good. Since the church does not have much money, so as far as they are concerned they get what they get for now. It is not optimal though...
To your last question, if you want to eq something different on broadcast than FOH, but you're using a bus, you can always double patch! If you've got leftover channels on your mixer, use them up! Find the worst offenders on your broadcast mix, double patch them to an unused channel, and process them for broadcast. Stop sending the original channel to the livestream bus and only send the new channel.
Great idea for a workaround! Good thinking
Good point!
I’ve played with this, too! 👍🏻
We tried for several years to use a bus mix off our X32 mixer and being mixed by the FOH engineer in his 'spare' seconds. The problem was two fold -- 1) the FOH engineer needs to be focused on what the room sounds like, not constantly flipping back to headphones to check the livestream sound, and 2) what the FOH engineer hears in his headphones is augmented by the room sound (he feels the low frequency sounds of the kick and the bass) and so while he 'thinks' the sound is spot on, when you listen to the livestream, it really is lifeless because the low end is way too low. We recently switched to sending our inputs to an Ableton PC over Dante for mixing in a separate room. That studio mix then gets send back to the X32 and forwarded on to the Blackmagic ATEM switcher to be combined with the video feed. When we cut over, the improvement was immediate and very noticeable. Yes, it requires another team member but the quality is worth it.
Thanks for sharing your experience, Paul. Very helpful!
I with Jake on this one. My room has no acoustic treatment where is matters. I’ve always complained that there is too much bass in the room and we recently did testing of the reverberation times in the room and these proved it. So because I have to mix to cater for the room we will be using a daw mix. It’s way more work for me I know but being a shift worker allows me to spend time at the church with the virtual mix to test and set things.
Have you eq’d the room. Our room is a concrete box and has a similar problem. Eq the room took it out of the equation.
@@PanRider939 yeah ive done a bit but have been meaning to do it again. ive already tried putting a low pass shelf on the LR mix and didnt do much bit its always a work in progress.
“ always a work in progress.”
Isn’t it.
Honestly, I still believe it all boils down to the mix engineer. My room is horrible, drums close to stage when I mean close I mean literally by the stage. I still get a great livestream mix using a matrix on my mixer.
And that’s me evaluating the mix to other churches with DAW mixes 3 times the size of my church.
What did I do?
I understand the weakness of my space. Did my eq and compression with a flat headset, my LR is sent to the matrix, my matrix is EQed to suite the room. That way my mixes are great both online and in the space. I have so single acoustic treatment in the space and you’ll be amazed when you hear the sound. I mix on a SQ not a fancy mixer. It all boils down to understanding your room and coming up to viable solutions.
For me I couldn’t get volunteers to work on a DAW, maybe in the future I will move to a DAW mix.
Lack of duplicate dynamics/eq and preamp gain along with volunteer task saturation were the reasons we set up a separate mixing board for streaming. Now I am working on setting up a DAW on the side to handle effects with a separate operator.
A DAW software solution IS just a software console. Add some inexpensive fader banks to your computer and you basically have a mixer a volunteer can use. Heck, the Avid S6 console is just that with an i/o box.
Cool perspective!
We send front of house to the livestream. Then have a post fader bus going to live stream to boost anything that’s too quiet, especially the spoken word, sort of a mix on top of a mix. It gets the job done and doesn’t require a person in a sound proof room operating cameras and mixing sound all over again. At the end of the day it's the message thats important and as good as it is streamed worship will never be as good as the in house experience.
Good point: "At the end of the day it's the message thats important".
Please what is the best app to do the adjustment on live steam system in case the signal going to live stream system in a different room
We have been using DAW for our Livestream running everything though Dante.
Cool ❤ very help full video. This trick very help full those have only one mixing console and
soo easy to handle
Use direct outs and you can mute and unmute from the board and it mutes the livestream.
2 track from foh with room mics mixed in. We aren't bethal or elevation. We don't have an endless supply of cream of the crop musicians and vocalist and Luke and his crew to mix it. I get everyone wants that, but lets call a spade a spade. It's not perfect but it gets the point across.
I take a matrix and send everything (my sub groups set to unity post fade) into it. I also have the room mics sent to a group. I then take the output of the everything matrix and send that with the room group to a second matrix. this way the everything matrix can be delayed to the furthest room mic (foh aimed at the pa) and all the mics are timed to this mic. I use the snare to find the distance/time. On the dlive you have to use the external input in the matrix in because the way the delay lands in the signal flow.
With a well tuned PA, solid sources, and a solid mixer you can get great results. But it takes all three working together to get it done. Same is true for broadcast studio's and even more important is the room they are in. Solid room with accurate monitors, solid sources, and a decent mixer and you can get there too.
Either way works. I've done both. Our needs are better met this way. Other churches may do it differently. That's okay. As long as they are happy with the results they are getting.
Great tips, man. Thank you.
How many tio songs did your chuch come out with Jake? Even with your plugins and post-production!! After all that work did he get you closer to the kingdom of God?
On the last point, can't you route a singer to 2 channels, one for FOH mix, one for Stream mix, and then EQ them differently? As long as you've got some spare channels...
Hmmm 🤔 I’m wondering the same
Yep, you sure can. If you have the channels available, go for it!
Not really a debate. More a technique.
Kade, I’ve listened to your church livestream and your vocals are well balanced in the mix. We also use a bus on the x32 for our livestream and our vocals tend to be to loud online, but sound fine FOH. Do you do anything different in your mix to get that balance?
Is it just the bus streaming, or is it augmenting a front of house mix. If you augment FOH you should be able to add more of what’s to quiet. In our case the vocals can get a bit overpowered so we add a bit at the bus stage.
I do have a boost bus that I have added to the mains that I send through a matrix, so I can experiment with that.
Cool.
Adding to that we’ve a spare wireless in ear unit, if I’m feeling fussy I’ll go into another room and solo the stream. Very useful tool and after a while it gets intuitive.
We bring our vocals down in the live stream bus mix by about 3-6dB to fix that problem.
When using ableton live, when I try to run an ambient pad in one track and guitar and vocals in another and route the audio to zoom through virtual cables, (I think) zoom captures more of the ambient pad and hardly any of the guitar and vocals, can anyone please help me out?
have you turned on "original sound" on zoom? Otherwise it tries to avoid echoes and larsen, but also degrades by a lot the audio quality.
Jake! It sounded like you were just discounting Andrew stone because they haven't made it on the radio or a breakout song?.... What you suggested with the DAW is not a good platform for a medium-sized two small Church. I know there are countless plugins and so many things to make it sound better, but you're also asking for volunteers to spend hours perfecting each service. It's not enough for us to find somebody who can run a soundboard, let alone use a program to engineer the worship service every Sunday.. get a grip! Most of us are not bethel! I would love it if you could get back to your! Helping small-to-medium-sized churches do sound and tech.
We actually are a really small church (CCE Ganzirri if you want to check) and we run Logic for our livestream. It sounds quite good, and i still haven't made a proper template because of lack of time; our template is made by little changes over time, plus we added all the guitars in the last 12 months so i was waiting for the band to be completed.
Singers aren't that great, neither player are the best in the world, but with some adjustment they can be improved with almost 0 efforts. The template autostarts at startup of macOS, and it is kinda automated via some sidechains, and via mute group on our XR18 we mute mics both in FOH and livestream.
Is matter of fact we have 2 guys for every service: one for atem mini pro camera switcher and Worship Extreme Presenter, and the other for FOH. The livestream DAW is basically touched just by me, other volunteers don't even know how to operate it, and they don't actually need to as it sound already good without any adjustment (plus when i'm low on volunteers i menage without any issue to control both livestreams and FOH all by myself).
Before instead, with stereo busses, they had to costantly correct the balance of the mix and it sounded so irregular and so bad, since i'm not present at every service because of university classes and exams.
For us DAW audio served better quality, but more important served more reliability and less work for each service.
C'était trop court