ep.72 How to fit a bassbar
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2020
- Dear Friends,
Here I show you how a bass bar should be fitted. Where the bass bar should be positioned; and why you should use a stiff metal ring to keep the top while fitting the bass bar in a stable position.
What you do not see is the amount of time you should dedicate to fit a bass bar. It is the dialog between the maker and his assumed high performing craftsman ability. The more professional you are, the more you are able to cancel every emotion and judge your work. Not an easy challenge.
Therefore, I repeat it for all of you: once you think it is perfect, don't glue it in. Sleep over and double-check it the day after. If you still believe it is great, glue it.
All the best from Cremona
Edgar
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I found your videos by accident and I’m so glad because they are excellent. I have learned so much about violins in the last month and I am now determined I will learn a lot more and start making a violin. Thanks so much. I’ll keep watching for new videos.
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us , god bless you
Edgar, thankyou so very much!
Hello from Winnipeg! Thank you kindly for your wonderful video. You have a lovely workshop.
Thanks!
All the best to you!
Edgar
Many excellent tips! Thank you!
You are welcome! Happy you like my videos!
All the best from Cremona
ER
Parabéns mestre
most important information is the bass bar itself thank you Edgar for accurate information now I know but still have to do it where would one get a ring from
Maestro!
Hi!
Thanks,
ER
Good evening, Edgar
each of your videos give lot of input to think about my own work. thanks for it.
In which of your videos do you explain the measuring of the bar position? - you mentioned former videos.
Thank you so much .
My violin was brokd
I made the tools witch i nead to repair it for exampl pot for make hat hid glu it keep the temptur 60 to 70 for a 1 and 30 minets just usd just with one warmer.
Thanks!
0:50 You say that the bass bar at the time of Stradivari was shorter than it is now. If you want to make an excellent sounding baroque violin in the 21st century, would you make the bass bar as short as Stradivari did or more like the length of a bass bar in a modern violin? Also, would you tune the top and back of a contemporary baroque violin like a modern violin? Thanks!
Thank you so much for your videos, extreme quality-content! Bravo!
Quick questions on the dimensions of the bass bar: Is the bass bar 10mm thick? And what height is ideal? It looks higher than 10mm.
Gracie 🎻
I enjoy your excellent videos and beautiful work! Very informative. I have many ideas for my own violin design and am currently in the research stage. I have yet to put hands on but I am looking forward to beginning soon. Thank you for sharing your many decades of experience.
Hi Edgar ,
Do you put any clamps on the bass bar?
And do you angle the bar so it s not along the wood grain If the top?
Thank you for your vidéos 👌
Very good video, thank you, but you do put spring on bass-bars. Is it advisable?
my instrument has built in bass bar not seprate what i should do for that? is that a problem? should i repair it with seprate bass bar? what is the main differences?
hello, i have a problem with sticking of bass stick. There is a trace of the bass bar strip on the cover. what is my fault? Also, what is the consistency of the adhesive used? I'm glad if you write.🎻❤
What is your opinion of carved in bass bar.....
hi Edgar, watching this video now for the second time, you said, in modern days bassbars are much longer then the stradivari, then how can we explain then, if the bassbar is such an important thing, why haven't we (most builders) not accomplished what stradivari did, soundwise?
Where can I find information on the exact placement of a cello bass bar?
@edgarruss two questions:
1: is that 19.25-19.5mm centre to centre? Centre of front to edge of base bar?
2: when you say "bonjourno a tutti", is tutti normal italian or is that a bit of word play referring to the concerto tutti?
Hey dear Edgar, I have a question about your f-hole Problem. As you demonstrated you choose the way you fit the bassbar in by checking the grain of the wood which I think is absolutely important. You even considered the curvature of the grain. Now as physicist I would like to construct a theory/modell for this problem. I would consider the grain as kind of a string or an ensemble of strings incoporated in the wood. Now if you choose a very long bassbar you would get a lower resonance frequency and I suppose this creates lower "undertones" that make the sound of the violin warmer. So this theory would support your assumption that long bassbars are more desireable than shorter ones (if you wish for a warmer sound). Now you get this section of the bass bar that is visible through the f-hole. I think your solution is not the best option, because now you cut through the grain of the would and you shorten the "strings"/grains. You get an assymetric bassbar. This now makes your bassbar more chaotic and less resonant because now it overlays the frequency of the long body and those of the "shortened" grains. Especially if the cutout for the f-hole is not exactly in the half it might get more chaotic because of the 2 new frequencies, that are not in an octave relation to the main frequency. If my theory is applieable the best solution would be to rethink the f-hole design as the position of the bassbar is undisputable.
This is just a theory and might be wrong or not appliable for the "bassbar-system". But have you considered this?
Maybe you already experimented with this. I would be happy to know what your experience and experiments taught you.
Actually I believe a longer bassbar will create a brighter sound since it stiffens up the top more than a short one. As for the cutout around the soundhole I think it is such a small detail that I doubt the influence could be heard in the finished instrument, and even if it could be heard I don't think the outcome would necessarily be negative. Sometimes assymetry can be useful in musical instruments.
I need bass
Thibault Jaberg exactly! I think you got it!
Thanks
ER
Your considerations seem very logical. But before focusing on details you are talking you should first consider more important details. Listen to my Sainton which has been finished mean while and is a good testimony of the entire concept I am trying to explain.
Most important details regarding the bass bar are ( my importance chart of bass bar):
1) position where the bridge stands
2) how well it is fitted
3) length (too long would kill the sound) too short doesn’t use the entire top to vibrate
4) the shape
5) the type of wood
6) the grain
This is the result of over 35 years of highest quality Violinmaking of mine.
ER
@@EdgarRuss Yes, after experimenting with various elements of the violin a little, certain things make big changes in the sound, and others less. But, as structural engineer by trade (and fiddle screwer upper, and violinest somewhat), holes and inconsistencies are interesting, to accomodate tradition, or a certain f hole, and arching.
Very nice video indeed, and I will for sure come back and watch it a few times before I fit the bass bar of my next violin, which is unfortunately on hold because I'm busy studying... I think that for me, fitting the bass bar is much more intuitive than shaping it afterwards. Not that it is easy, of course, but I know what I'm working towards. When fitting, I also know the approximate shape I want, of course, from opening up instruments for repairs, but I'm unsure if there is a "correct" shape, if I should reference the thickness with or without the top, how much to taper the bar sides etc. I feel that I might be improvising that more than what is good, so please tell me that you're planning a video on that part as well? :-D
Also, you might get a lot of people asking how much tension to put into the bar and if you can do it without the ring if you don't give it tension. I think adressing that in a hypothetical "part two" would be a good idea :-)
Cheers, Tobias
Tostra1997 ok, ok, I will make a video about the tension sooner or later. Need a few tops on my working bench in order to be able to show better. Give some more time.
All the best
See you soon for a Q&A next week for all Patreon’s. Right.
Edgar
Oh I didn't mean to rush you or anything, don't worry :-)
I was actually surprised to see how many tops you have lying around already to show these things on. You must have a very productive workshop!
And yes, I hope to be able to attend. But I may have to watch it afterwards, as I need to hand in my bachelor thesis next week as well and therefore don't have tons of time.
All the best
Tobias
Very interesting video, Edgar!
I got some questions when I saw you putting the basebar over the f-holes on the instrument with the narrow f-holes.
When you have to cut away a part of the bar due to optical reasons, maybe that's not how it has been done in the original instrument, and I would also think that this weakens the bar significantly and gives it some kind of asymmetry, which maybe is less optimal for the sound than a wrong postion, and gives trouble later due to the high string tension? Also, the f-holes define the part where the bridge can rotate freely, which is very important for the sound, so if you put the basebar outside of this region you also bring some asymmetry into the system?
Did you make experiments with different basebars on the same instrument? This would be very interesting, as it touches the basics of violin tone production mechanism.
It sounds really strange to me and maybe is not what the original maker intended when trying out putting the f-holes very narrow together - he wanted to have a small and flexible "rotating area" under the bridge feet.
thinking out loud, if the bassbar was placed "over the f hole" and a piece was cut of away, then why we don't see it that much in with past instruments?
I think the bass bar is very important
Yesssssssssssssssssssss!
Ciao, Edgard! Quale tipo di metallo deve essere utilizzato in questa piastra, prego?
How you tune a bassbar?
Is the 19.5mm to the inner edge of the Bass bar or as a centre line. More information on the spring in the next video please.
brian or'manbearpig of course the outside.
Spring matters of the bass bar will be made, done deal!
Thank you for your input.
All the best
ER
Hi Edgar thanks for sharing this. Maybe you do not want to give away all of your secrets for free, but I wonder if you can clarify, which section of the bassbar is 19.5mm from the centreline?
I have understood from other sources that usually a measurement is made at the centres of the upper and lower bouts. Is that your preference too?
Many thanks from England!
I am a bit perplexed by the design and location of the violin bass bar. It’s easy enough to follow the prescribed plans presumed to imitate cremonese masters, but when a beautiful, well-made old violin comes in for repair with a bass bar differently made and located, I am unsure. I feel torn between commonly accepted bass bar solutions and the maker’s obvious differing decisions when the violin was created. I would appreciate so much your thoughts on this. Thanks in advance, Jack Zell
Indeed, as some bassbars are even shorter then some Stradivaris, edgar stated that it makes a whole difference as if it will become a student violin or a professional violin if you missplace the bass bar by 1/4 of a millimeter, this would mean that some Stradivari violins would sound like shit... It is not all about the bass bar, i would say a max of 0.75 mm left or right is enough, and hours to do a bassbar including gluing, but a week, haha, someone wants to get this story interesting...
Hello Edgar, how about testing the sound of the upper plate after the bar is glued in?
By asking this you open a huge file....where most super detailed measuring methods fall apart. Because once glued the bassbar the entire plate performs/vibrates completely different. Actually it s even difficult to hear it singing as before.
But since it is such a complex trade lets cool down and be happy that we ave at least one "working" or better mostly used method by most makers; and that seems to work pretty well by the way.
I think it is more a question to "measure" always in the same moment of construction in order to be able to compare.
Edgar,
Loved your quote..."...i dont have 15 employees I have a band saw." 😆
Too good. Also just Checked out your 2020 Master Guarneri at Ifshin....OMG sooooo nice!!!!!!
Haha not employees, just students, who get a free learn on howto make a violin
The bass bar reinforce mainly the g and d string?
I would rather use the words: distributes the G and D over the entire top!
Yesssss!
Sottotitoli in italiano, spagnolo, francese? Grazie
There's very little noise, maybe problem of input or output
이승기 I guess you have to make your device a louder!
😁☺️😉
08:33, 19.5?