Is My Podcast Sinful? | Ep 797
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Today we're discussing gender roles in the church, preaching vs. pastoring, and what a woman is allowed to do biblically. There is a debate circulating on social media over whether women should be able to teach academic theology or exposit the Bible even to other women. We start with definitions of biblical patriarchy, complementarianism, and egalitarianism. The patriarchal view says that if a woman is to teach other women, it must be within the bounds of child-rearing and homemaking. We explain why hierarchies in the home and church are important, but why complementarianism is different from biblical patriarchy. We all have proper context and responsibilities for our gifts, but while we agree that women should not be pastors or teach in pastoral roles, we don't see biblical support for the idea that women can't be talking about academic theology publicly, generally speaking. We look at John Piper's breakdown of complementarianism and touch on theological works written by women and discipleship.
#politics #theology #religion #christian #christianity #apologetics #bible #god #jesus #relatablepodcast #relatable #alliebethstuckey #blazetv
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Timecodes:
(00:00) Intro and definitions
(06:36) Biblical patriarchy
(14:55) My personal take
(21:26) Hierarchies in the home and church
(27:08) God-given skills / female pastors
(36:52) Theological works by women
(42:27) Discipleship
(45:22) John Piper's view / complementarianism
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Links:
GotQuestions.org: "What are the Quiverfull and Patriarchy movements?" www.gotquestions.org/Quiverfu...
GotQuestions.org: "What is complementarianism?" www.gotquestions.org/compleme...
GotQuestions.org: "What is egalitarianism?" www.gotquestions.org/egalitar...
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Relevant Episodes:
Ep 129 | Female Pastors?
• Female Pastors? | Ep 129
Ep 122 | Josh Buice
• Josh Buice | Ep 122
Ep 134 | Eschatology, End Times and What's to Come
• Eschatology, End Times...
Ep 796 | Former Lesbian Activist Calls “Soft” Christians to Repentance | Guest: Rosaria Butterfield
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Is My Podcast Sinful? | Ep 797
Even if the only people I EVER teach are my four kids in homeschool, it's incredible how often I have to offer a complex theological explanation... To my 7 year olds!!! They are so good at questions and I encourage it, because theology and apologetics are important. How can I prepare my kids for spiritual battle if I don't first equip them with armor and weapons? I can offer my children, and my God by extension (Matt 25:40), no greater gift.
Amen! You cannot pass on what you do not possess.
I was thinking of taking Sean McDowell apologetics course. I find I have a real thirst for biblical theology and this stuff makes it hard. One pastor said women are easily fooled and can't discern. I find that's something God has gifted me with and what about women's intuition?! Also he goes so far as to say they shouldn't be police officers, judges, doctors, etc.
I agree- my kids asking questions is what got me interested in serious study.
It's not"the only people you teach" They are the most important people you'll ever teach. I thank God I had a Godlymother and father. God bless you and your family.
@Castle to kingdom but that's not in a church setting. Context is everything.
I am a Relata-Bro because Allie’s my sister in Christ. I appreciate her perspective and it’s comforting to hear any Christian - male or female - share God’s word with clarity and confidence. I only listen to a few podcasts and this is one of my favorites.
Thanks for coming up with a name for it…Relata-Bro! I am a 60 year old male believer. Am so encouraged to see Allie or any strong Christian women, who can articulate their faith with such clarity, while respecting the heart and meaning of scripture. Too many trashy female “role-models” in the world. I am proud to listen to Allie speaking the Truth!
Read The Making of Biblical Womanhood to see what Christians have believed all throughout history. Beth Allison Barr wrote it. It’s an important book if you honor God and believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
@@donawyo a more thorough walk through is done by Mike Winger right here on this here youtube
@@MrPladdy True, he goes in-depth !
Relata-Bro!
Allie, I don’t know where my four children and I would be today if I had adhered to the idea of not outpacing my husband or of only learning doctrine from either him or my dad.
First of all, my dad was not part of my life. So, dead end there. Secondly, my husband was secretly homosexual throughout our marriage, and although he feigned Christianity and knew the lingo, he could not and would not have taught me anything. But, by the kindness and immeasurable grace of God, (long before I knew about my husband’s secret), I studied the Word on my own. I bought theology books. I listened to Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah, Adrian Rogers, James Dobson, John MacArthur and so so so many others as they patiently broke down the deeper things of scripture for me. There were no podcasts at that time-I listened via a little radio that stayed on all day in my kitchen. So as I went about playing with and teaching my children and keeping my house, I was being washed with the word and soaked in scripture. Then, years later, when my husband’s sin was brought to the light, praise God I was prepared and ready to walk through that season. God had orchestrated all of it so beautifully and I relied so heavily on what I had learned and studied and memorized as I led my children through that time and through my husband’s subsequent abandonment of all of us. I praise God that He allowed me to learn quietly and on my own in preparation for the future I had no idea was coming. He is so good!
I would like to tell my story to DP (one of the most currently vocal men on this topic) and ask him where he thinks my children and I would be now if I had waited on my husband to teach me theology. I feel that D’s views are quite narrow, naive and short-sighted in this regard. I also sense in them the heavy yoke of legalistic burden that Jesus wants us to be free from.
I agree with you completely! An individual should solely take the initiative to know God. It should not be forced. However pastoring nor being priest of a church is a male’s only duty, responsibility. Of course an unbelieving husband/wife will not teach nor share the Gospel with their significant other. When Paul was writing these commandments given by God, it was subjected to ‘believers in a church.’ There are so many couple we can learn from the Bible were one was for God and the other against. God always showed mercy to the one that was faithful to Him. He even blessed them because of that one person who stood for God. Pastor or a Priest responsibility is a man’s.
I highly recommend that you read The Making of Biblical Womanhood to see what Christians have believed all throughout history. Beth Allison Barr wrote it. It’s an important book if you honor God and believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
What an amazing testimony! You tell it so beautifully! Praise the Lord! What a great, kind, and loving God we serve that He prepares us before we walk through trials. I praise Him for working in your heart to study the Bible and draw near to Him! Thank you for sharing!
Wow! Thank you for sharing. If I weren't on break at work I'd be crying and praising God for his faithfulness. It brings me joy to hear the absolute assurance in people's testimonies even though it was a hard experience. *Sigh* God is so good.
Teaching and disciplining children, even as a disicple, isn't the same as doing such in the church.
Mike Winger has an incredible series called “Women in Ministry” he’s working on right now. I highly suggest people look it up if they want to get a really good, thorough breakdown of all the arguments and practical applications on both sides. Start with the first one, “Why we can’t think Biblically about it.” He explains all of the reasons we tend to circumvent the Bible while dealing with this topic. It’s so good! Allie should have him on to discuss 😜💪
It's such a good series!
The 7-hour video on head coverings...wow! I haven't listened to the full video but I admire his thorough study and teaching!
Such a good series!
@@ericanicole806 It was an interesting video, though he came to the wrong conclusion at the end.
I love Mike Winger. I'm doing his study on Romans right now.
God used your podcast to help change my mind about abortion, and encouraged me to read my Bible. I thank you for that!
Amazing! Procreation is the most beautiful gift God gave us.
Love this!🩷🥹
I don’t see this as a complicated issue, but maybe I’m oversimplifying it. Women are not to have authority over men in the local church, and are not to preach to men. Seems pretty clear in scripture. Women teaching other women, kids in church or their own at home, podcasts, witnessing to someone you meet, group conversation about the bible, etc., as long as it’s respectful and edifying, is fine and good.
That's an awesome way to put it
The Bible doesn't authorize women to preach at all, whether it be to men or other women. The only times that the Bible authorizes women to teach is either when they're with their children or when an older woman is teaching a younger woman how to be a lady and a housewife. That's it. Let's get the facts straight.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 I agree about the preaching. I didn’t say they should preach to other women-rather teach. I’m unclear in your comment though, are you saying a woman can not teach children in Sunday School? Cannot witness to someone? Cannot have a conversation with coworker about the bible? I’d like some scripture support for that please.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 What about Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament who held leadership positions in the church. Also, in the Old Testament there were female prophets that God used to spread the word of God to the people. I understand that they can't be head of the church, but it does not say they can't preach to other people outside of the church.
I think the same. I don’t understand how this topic became so over complicated
My husband used to listen to Nancy Leigh DeMoss Wolgemuth all the time. He grew spiritually as a result!
Love her ❤
I used to listen to Elizabeth Elliot and others in Christian radio in the 80's and later. Bought many of their books also. I learned a lot from them and thank God for them. Likewise you, Alisa Childers, and others are also solid in the faith, trustworthy teachers. Do i believe you should be pastors teaching in the pulpit? No. But attend a Sunday school class you taught? Absolutely!! I thank God for you also.
Agreed on all you said 👌
@@jessicahamilton5243 Thanks Jessica! I came across Allie from her hilarious Democrat Parody video and stayed for her firm stance on the faith and right & wrong and conservative values. If you haven't read her autobiography (or listened to it as I did) I highly recommend it.
@@kctechie Arhh thank you for the recommendation, I can imagine it a very good read . I will have to look that video up ! I live and am from the UK 🇬🇧 and our political system is a complete and utter joke the past 3 years ( we’ll long before that really ) They are all the same and no opposition from one another, we have the elections this week and most off us Brits feel like there is no one that represents us the people , also I only bow down to one king 👑 our Heavenly Father not the one being sworn in this Saturday. God bless you all out therein the USA 🇺🇸
There does seem to be a difference between the pulpit and the SS classroom. There is a feeling of authority I associate with the pulpit. However, growing up we had a sweet, humble single woman missionary who would speak on a Sunday morning. I wasn't at all uncomfortable. I knew she was under the pastor's authority. Many Egalitarian women make me cringe and Allie nails it when she says that many Egalitarians are prideful, so I cling to 1 Corinthians 11:3!
Nope the women should definitely not be teaching a Sunday school class to a mixed group. This goes against God’s Word. Also women preaching from the pulpit “under” the Pastors ok is still going against God. God is the authority on this and if a pastor says to go against Gods Word well then you would be sinning.
Nothing to argue much, women are not to lead the Church, but women are to teach other women and children, women are commanded to preach the Gospel and to behave Biblically.
I agree women should not lead in church. I can see women being pastors as long as a man is leading the church. The way a woman is underneath her husband in a marriage.
And really, it goes back to who Jesus picked to be Apostles. He clearly didn't have any problem talking to women and having them as part of his ministry- there's mentions of women who cared for Him, His disciples and even followed Him from from place to place. If He had wanted them to take headship, He would have explicitly picked them to. This is why us Catholics still adhere to the male priesthood. If Jesus wanted female priests, He would have picked women Apostles as well. It's not about "equality" here- we're all equally important. There wouldn't be a Church if women didn't bring forth children. There wouldn't be a next generation of Christians if women (religious or married) didn't instruct the children and encourage each other. We're all needed in the body of Christ for our own purposes set up by Him. How many times does Paul talk about "if everything were an eye, where would the hearing be?" I loved the "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" where the mom said, "Yes, your father is the head, but I am the neck. I can turn the head to what it needs to see." Neck supports the head and influences the head. Still leaves men/husbands/priests as the head.
the role of pastor is one preserved for men. A woman who happens to be married to a pastor can not acquire the role of pastor through marriage since the only time marriage is a qualification for the role of pastor is when it applies to a man and it is but one qualification requirement of many of being a pastor.
@@marshahollings no, no pastor under any circumstances.
Your statement remains correct despite the fact that women CAN and indeed God has used women to lead actual churches but it's the exception and it's exceptionally rare .
As long as the anointing is abundantly present it's a sin to forbid the woman to preach but it's exceptionally rare for women to take absolute leadership
I was going through a terrible time after serious spinal surgery, giving up my beloved job as a scientist. But I was delving into Scripture when I sensed God calling me to write & teach Scripture. And the first study was Revelation, and I’ve been asked to reach it again & again - to women only. My favorite topic to teach is eschatology. The women love it, and so do I. It fills me with joy. I will do it until God calls me to stop!
I’m so glad I came across your channel. I’m Catholic so we might not agree on everything but we do on majority of the subjects. I must admit pride is something I need to work on in my marriage and in my life in general. Today’s subject really spoke to my heart ❤️❤️🙏🏻
You were on fire here! Love you Allie! As a woman who is both Reformed and loves theology, you said exactly what I was thinking when I heard those unwholesome statements on the original podcast. I took 3 years of Biblical Greek in college, and was the only girl in my class. I still use my training from college in homeschooling my teenagers.
Thank you for talking about this, I messaged said person a few days ago, who is talking about this. And I'm honestly sad, cause I have learned alot from this podcaster/pastor. So sad that he's taking a stance that a woman can't even choose what to study biblically. What a way to put down women seeking to know God more.
Curious-who is it?
I stopped following him a few months ago…he just felt off and loves the sound of his own voice. I got tired of him constantly talking over his guests, who have a lot to offer and share, but he never lets anyone else talk. 😬
Is it the same one (initials JW) who recently suggested that there’s also no sense in a woman getting a higher education because it’s not necessary for being a wife and mother?
@@kimpreslar303 prooobably, sounds like something he’d say 😝 I had to unsubscribe from his channel because it just wasn’t edifying to me anymore, honestly mostly confusing and so many -isms and -ologies and terms I couldn’t keep up with (guess I shouldn’t have wasted time with my higher ed degree 😜), even as a 20-year believer. And he just seemed too pompous and, now that I know he falls in this category, unbiblically patriarchal. And yes, initials JW.
@@kimberlymurray304who are you all talking about?
I just recently found your channel. You’re so bright and articulate and an exceptional teacher. I believe God wants you to use your gifts to glorify Him. You are humble and never glorify yourself. You are doing our Lord’s work.
Mary sat at Jesus' feet to listen and learn. She was commended for this. That was in a culture where it was unheard of for women to be students of scripture.
one of the hardest parts about women who are very extreme with "women shouldn't teach" are often quick to shame women who aren't super traditional. i used to follow an older woman on IG who talks a lot about a woman's place at home (since i have no women in my life to learn from), but had to unfollow after a while because she throws so much shame at women who have tattoos or had sex before marriage, even if they have repented & changed their ways. she had no grace. she even told me women should be ashamed of themselves, & that shame is a good thing for us to have. & she is a *very* popular account.. it was awful. so thank you for not only using your platform, but also for having so much grace & kindness while speaking truth 🖤🖤
Are you talking about Lori Alexander (The Transformed Wife)?
Sounds like the transformed wife 🥴
Loooove the Transformed wife. If you watch her videos, she is the most gracious, loving woman. She doesn’t shame women. She is teaching them what the Bible commands her to teach in Titus 2:3-5.
@@steffa648 she literally told me that women should be shamed. that feeling shame is a good thing. don't tell me i'm fragile or can't take the heat. Jesus delivered His messages with grace, she doesn't always do the same. i never said i disagreed with her teaching, but rather how she teaches them. i watched her videos for many many years. of course i was convicted for many things. but when she told me i should feel shame, i was done. it is possible for someone to teach truth & do so in a very poor manner that pushes people away. to each their own. but don't tell me i can't handle it when someone tells me i should feel shame. i don't believe Jesus would do that.
@@harmshoney where did she say that shame is good? I don’t ever remember hearing that and I have watched most of her videos and have read her posts.
The Bible is abundantly clear and unmistakable on this subject. It is only confusing if one is bent on rejecting Scripture at this point. The teaching of the congregation is to be by a biblically qualified man only. Women can teach other woman, can teach their children, can share their faith with family/friends/strangers, etc.
It’s actually not. But that’s okay. What do you think prophetesses do? Is that a form of teaching?
@@thebonniemonroeshow3708
I think that’s different than shepherding a whole congregation.
Humans will because of their natural nature. Will justify or defy what the scriptures teach. In order to do what they please.
@@thebonniemonroeshow3708 Prophesying is a supernatural oracle and not the same thing as preaching or teaching. For the many churches that don't even believe in post-apostolic prophesying scriptures on prophetesses are a completely moot point.
@@conceptualclarity Thanks for that perspective. Several churches also still believe that prophecy still occurs today & it is actually biblical that in the end times that there God will pour out his spirit & people will prophecy. The reason I ask is because we know there were prophetesses in the Bible. And they clearly couldn’t be silent. Also, when a prophet speaks… you are actually supposed to take heed & act because they’re speaking on behalf of God. Is that not a form of submission? Also, what exactly is teaching if not to simply tell someone something that they don’t already know? Didn’t God himself select Mary to be first person to teach men / the disciples about Jesus’ resurrection? And what is preaching if not spreading the good news of a resurrected savior?
I grew up with a pastor who was very supportive of women teachers & preachers so I’m actually very intrigued by this theology. For us, it was very clear that Paul made these teachings to a specific time & place for a church who had simply lost its way entirely & this was Paul’s attempt at restoring order through the permission of of the Holy Spirit. Moses also allowed divorce because of hardened hearts, but according to JESUS that wasn’t the actual endgame. What’s permitted & what ideal in the eyes of God aren’t always the same.
I’m a new Christian - this was so helpful and clarifying to hear talked through. Thanks!
Jesus met the woman at the well of Jacob and sent her to spread the message that the Messiah had come. Jesus first made his resurrected self known to the woman who served with the disciples. These two examples, which contain the two most important life messages, were first shown to women. I believe Jesus allows women to teach and spread his ministry. The caveat is they are not supposed to be the leaders according to the apostle Paul.
This is always such an enigma of a conversation to me because God used me to lead my husband to Christ. So it's paradoxical for me to be told that woman are not to spread the gospel, insofar as teaching, to man, but in doing so man are brought to Christ.
You can and should spread the gospel. You just shouldn’t be a leader in the church as a woman.
Exactly this!!!!!!!!!
I am grateful for your wisdom to refrain from using names, Allie. Thank you!
Great job on this episode Allie Beth and team! I love that you are all using your gifts to spread this wonderful Godly message, it was so encouraging to me!
This is very insightful. I’ve been in prayer over this topic. Thank you.
What a wise woman you are, thanks God for people like you!
And you have placed the words I needed it to understand and guide my daughter.
Thanks Ally
So thankful for your ministry on this podcast Allie. Thanks for speaking to the whole patriarchal movement. I’ve definitely been discussing with friends and it just hasn’t sat well with me. Thankful for your thoughts on the matter.
Aquila AND Priscilla taught/discipled Apollos when his doctrine was incomplete. Women can definitely disciple their brothers and sisters in Christ, just not as an elder or from the pulpit of a local church. We are a body and every member needs every other member.
I will add that there definitely is a spectrum. Some patriarchal people can tend to lump all complimentarians with soft complimentarians, who are really just egalitarians pretending to be complimentarian. And complimentarians can think that anyone patriarchal must require female head coverings and unmarried daughters to remain at home, no women studying theology, etc. etc. and that also isn’t true. Most of us have a lot more in common with those in a different camp than we might think. Most of us believe the Bible teaches that husbands/fathers are to be the heads of the households and that men are to be the elders of the church.
Right. The difference is that Apollos knew some things but he was still not a convert and baptized in accordance to the apostles. So Apollos was in need of being witnessed to and the gospel preached to.
Thank you so much for this. I heard the exact podcast you quoted and was so disturbed. You laid it out well and countered with Biblically sound examples and spelled out the thoughts I hadn't even put words to.
Regarding explaining who you are and your strong will, my toddler is the same. That can be a good thing if used for God's glory as you have shown. I pray that she follows that path in Christ. Your content is greatly appreciated. God bless!
As a RelataBro I enjoy listening to your show and sharing it with my wife. Keep up the great work!
Great episode! ❤❤❤ I'm 65 (Titus 2) and really enjoy and am inspired by your podcasts. Keep up the good work!
Mike Wingers series on “Women in Ministry” was an excellent survey of all the Bible has to say within context and godly truth. He just lets the Bible speak in the egalitarian vs complimentarian debate. Excellent excellent
You discussed this so level headed and respectful… this conversation gets me heated up just listening to it haha
Great show Mrs Stuckey!As a 52 year old Afro American Christian male, I appreciate your Christian explanation of the Holy Bible. Watching your show helps me understand the gifts of females better in a Biblical perspective. Thanks and God bless!Also Happy Belated Mother's day!
You appreciate her saying men are above women? Shocking 😂😂😂
I started teaching my kids the Bible during homeschool when my husband was still an atheist. I was a lifelong agnostic and nobody taught me the Bible but I knew I needed to teach them and I learned along with them. If I waited for my husband to teach them the Bible, they wouldn’t know the Bible at all (or go to church). It took prayer but my husband’s a believer now and needless to say, so are my kids.
My husband and I became Christians around the same time. He never took up his role to be spiritual head of the family. Indeed he fell away from the faith eventually. Thankfully God led me to love His Word and to take to teaching my child Scripture seriously.
@@ifeifesi I’m sorry to hear that. The Bible addresses believers. When it says men should take the lead in teaching, it assumes the man is a believer and a follower of Christ. I’ve always allowed my husband to take the lead in all matters before I came to faith but when it came to teaching my children about Jesus, he gave me his blessing to teach them. And now he’s gradually taken on the role of teaching and a leading which I must say I prefer.
To the woman whose husband said "you are not going to out pace me."...The late Ruth Bell Graham, wife of evangelist Billy Graham was once asked if she had ever contemplated divorcing her husband. Her reply: “Divorce? No. Murder? Yes.”...lol
I mean no disrespect but I'm so grateful that I don't have to rely on my husband or my father when it comes to learning about the bible. My dad was a preacher who lived a double life, most of my childhood. My husband is a christian and a good man, but doesn't take his walk with God very seriously. Sadly I have to be the spiritual leader to our 6 children. I wish things were different and have prayed for years that my husband would take his role as head of the home seriously but he hasn't. I have grown so much through other men and women teaching the bible. However my views are like yours Allie! Thank you for speaking on this. You are greatly appreciated!!
@Jamie’s Reading Life same ladies. I’m doing all the discipling wjth my boys.
I don’t even get why this is considered controversial. Like… Deborah was a judge in the OT. And there were women prophets in the early church, in the book of Acts. The big passages dealing with women’s submission are in relation to marriage- wives submit to husbands, not all women submit to all men who are not their husbands. We are both in the image of God, and Paul says that before Christ, we are equals.
Still not allowed to be pastors. You are making false equivalence arguments with your examples. Not allowed to be elders in church either.
Equal in value, not in function.
@@wordsofjames But many tie value to function.
Deborah being a judge didn't make her a pastor. And the fact that there were female prophets in the Church didn't make them pastors too. Miriam was a prophetess, and God put her in a time out for a whole week outside the camp by giving her leprosy because she had the audacity to put herself on Moses' lvl as a minister to the ppl. Women trying to be ministers is a sin. So says Num. 12:11.
@Jamie’s Reading Life Gal 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Paul is not erasing gender,m or ethnicity, but saying that we are all “one” in Christ. No one is inferior or superior before Christ based on social standing, race, or sex. And building spiritual hierarchies based on these things is therefore against the Bible and our worth in Christ. Notice I say spiritual hierarchies. I am not saying that all hierarchies are bad. Even the least of all church members is only under the spiritual authority of God, and he (or she) aught to respect the pastor, but should go to God alone with his sins and for his salvation. My husband is a pastor. A pastor is the ultimate servant. I think we misunderstand the example of servant leadership that Christ put forth in the Bible, in washing his disciples’ feet. A pastor isn’t someone who lords spiritual authority over his members. Those members get truth from the Word the same way he does. What is preaching… isn’t it just teaching? Teaching what you’ve learned, sharing the gospel with other saints and sinners? And really, where is the example in the Bible that women can’t do this? A woman cannot tell a man what she has learned from the Word? When I talk to my husband about what I learned in my devotions, how is this different than teaching a sabbath school class or preaching? Just cuz I’m talking to one dude and not a whole lot?
@@wordsofjames Deborah had a lot more power than a pastor or an elder! Can you provide Bible verses for these statements? I am aware of the statement that an elder should be the husband of one wife, and this is a prescription against polygamy.
The only way that I see this might be a problem is that it would affect the marriage. And yes wives are to submit to their husbands, and being a pastor or elder when the husband is not, would make this awkward. Ultimately I agree that women shouldn’t be pastors, but to say the Bible expressively forbids it? Too much.
"When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately." Acts 18:26
I believe this is different than a woman behind a pulpit with the authority that carries. I Cor. 11:3, 5 But, I'm a complementarian! My marriage is so much more peaceful when I stay under my husband's leading.❤
I appreciate you bringing these issues forward, Allie. In my 40 years as a Christian, I've heard all these points, but I clicked on this because of the picture of Elizabeth Elliott. Great choice!
Thank you, Allie! I've had some questions about this topic, and you helped me gain some clarification.
Thank you for making this video. I just started listening but I have been asking this question a lot recently trying to find an answer. I’m excited to see what your take is.
Some people within the church go from one extreme to the other, the Bible provides balance.
Indeed, Satan loves it when they do because it causes stress inside
People use the word "balance" whenever they don't want to commit to one thing.
I am very proud of you finally accepting Jesus. I was saved since the age of 22. But grew my faith by leaps and bounds was when my late wife got sick shortly after Thanksgiving back in 2009. She saw a doctor on Monday and all the readings came back good ( by the way she was a type 1 diabetic since 1970 at the age of 12 1/2). Tuesday she took a turn for the worst and ended up in the hospital. Wednesday her lungs was clear although she was in a coma. Thursday 100% staff Pneumonia both lungs. Was like this for 4.5 weeks. I had a dream (2x ) in the same night where she told me she needed my permission to leave with Jesus. Of course I said yes
If some people say women can't even *understand* the Bible like men, then how is there hope of our salvation ? Lol oh brother.
As an aside from your comment (I am sure women in general can understand most things as well as men in general)
but surely there are people of both sexes who, well aren't especially bright, who can't understand the bible. Are they doomed?
The Scripture about Timothy, whose father was Greek, learning from his Jewish mother and grandmother, says a lot against the typical patriarchal position we hear today. For Lois and Eunice to teach Timothy the Scriptures, they would have to know them for themselves and be able to properly exegete them for Timothy to understand. My fourth book is about to be published, so I don't have a problem with women teaching women, and actually most of my readers are men. I can't help that; I haven't marketed to men. Because I write deeply theological books, most women don't like them. lol. But I'm a strict complementarian who has no desire to pastor or co-pastor a church. Friends of mine are in churches that have female co-pastors and I have to tell them that I want nothing to do with their churches.
I understand what you believe and why, I'm more of a soft complementarian. What I've never understood from that position is why you must disfellowship from other Christians who don't understand scriptures the same way you do. I've listened to other positions and it's not a willingness to sin that drives women, at least a lot of them. Do you believe this to be a gospel issue? I mean, if a woman preaches to thousands of people (men and women) and they get saved do you believe she will go to hell because of that? If not then why disfellowship? I believe, for example, Calvinism and Arminianism are issues more closely related to salvation yet we don't disfellowship over that. Why must we separate over this?
@@gracel316 I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but I was saying that I won't go to churches that have female elders/pastors, but I still have friends who go to those churches. I would say that there is some tension between those friends and myself, but I'm certainly not saying that they're not saved. As for a woman who publicly teaches men, only God knows if she's saved. All I know is that I won't support her and would call her to repentance. It's a Genesis 2 & 3 issue (1 Timothy 2:12-14), so if she can't even get _that_ right, how can she be qualified to teach anything else?
I believe this all comes down to a position of authority. I have learned from women in reference to Bible teaching I do not think this puts them in authority over me. At work at a Christian University where there is a women theology theology professor and I have heard her teach in chapel and she did a great job. Just last week I went to a lady who is on staff and asked her to tell me how she understood a Bible passage. I learned something from her. I would say this only applies to a women being a pastor. I have listened to some of your Bible teaching Allie and learned. Also I listen to Allisa Childers and have learned from her and support her ministry. Even a female student who graduated at the top of her theology classes really understood the Greek helped me understand some biblical texts in the original language.
It seems to me that we are leaving out the Holy Spirit out of all these conversations. It is up to GOD in what He calls us to in regard to gifts and ministry. If that is for a woman to be a Bible teacher in a college, He will lead her to that. If she is called to preach to the homeless, He will call her to that (although we are all called to minister to the poor), however she might use her gift of hospitality (has happened) to do it. If we are walking with the LORD, then we need to trust His leading. His ways are not confusing. I do believe that He is tired over all the bickering, though. If someone is clearly walking in a gifting of the Spirit and is being fruitful in the work of the Lord, we need to stop hindering, backbiting (GOD hates this!), and doubting that it is GOD that is working through them to the edification and the growth of the church. Now, I mention that ALL have been gifted with gifts to be used in service to our Lord, male and female. We will all be required to stand before Christ and give account. Some will have only used them in the home (although, hopefully this includes inviting people into your home to minister to them), some will go into the world to minister to the lost, others to the church as the Lord directs. This is all for the will of the Lord to be performed and Christ's work to continue for the edification of the church, the reaching the lost with the gospel, and for GOD's will to be performed on the earth. I have known godly men and women, when we are working in unity for Christ's sake more is accomplished and we experience more heaven on earth as we fellowship in the unity of the Spirit and love.
On fire today Allie. Thank you.
Allie,
Debra was a leader over men and women. Anna was a NT prophetess. To teach, preach or lead is something that all believers have been called to do. The line of demarcation is the church. Whether in the church or outside its context, men are to lead. If there are no men to lead, let a woman do what she must.
My mother was my champion in life. Dad was the leader and the teacher of sports, but mom ran the show. They had 9 of us to raise, and we were a handful. 😂 I was the mama's boy. I always hung out with the women at parties. I am a champion for women.
My wife of 20 years recently went home to Jesus. My heart has a huge hole in it, but I know we shall meet again. I asked for a double portion of her spirit. I praise the name of Jesus for my Eve!
Go preach, speak and teach us all, as the Lord leads you, but be content to let the men lead the church. In that, I believe you can do no wrong. In Jesus love...
Allie I have grown so fond of you. I talk with a Baptist lady every week. I see her church as overly strict, OSAS but stress no drinking, no dancing, etc, also KJV only Bible which I can't get over. I need to fight the urge to argue with her.
I have to say, when you said that you are a 3rd child, I immediately thought about my stubborn 3rd child. And I could totally see her doing something like this, if we can survive her childhood. 😂 Thank you for giving me hope that she can do something amazing for Jesus just as she is.
Allie, I'm so thankful for your channel. May God continue to bless you and this platform. 🩷
I am Pentecostal and I like for podcast! I like the fact that you talk about the important topics that are affecting our society and how politics affect our Christian values.
I just started listening to this, and I’m very excited. I have strong Bible knowledge, and I’m struggling with my role in certain situations as a female. Thank you for this, Allie!
Ok, I finished the podcast. This was a great help. Thank you so much!
The more things change, the more they stay the same. I remember this same debate 50 years ago when i was in college.
I don’t agree with women pastors teaching men, but I believe that we should have women teaching women as a separate ministry. There are many situations in which women react differently and more freely in a women only situation.
My husband left me and is married to someone else, my father is dead, our pastor is “too busy” to sit down and talk one on one and we are told to go to our life group leaders - our life group is all women (widows plus myself) led by a woman, so if I strictly follow Paul’s teaching, who would I go to with my questions? Another woman’s husband? A single older male?
Oh my word! Thank you!!! I listened to someone else’s terrible take and was super annoyed.
Well at the end of the day it is not any person that will judge us at judgement day but the Word of God. And His Word is eternal.
NKJV Bible. Matthew 24:35
[35]Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
NKJV Bible. Psalms 119:160
[160]The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.
This means that every single word of the Bible is eternal truth.
Remember what the Scripture says:
NKJV Bible. 1 Timothy 2:11-15
[11]Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
[12]And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
[13]For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
[14]And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
[15]Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
This means that going against the Word of God is rebellion and does not stand in the eternal truth.
And rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.
No RUclipsr, teacher or anyone else is going to stand with you on judgement day - only you and God.
The only way to stand secure before God is with faith in Jesus and by obeying His Word through the Holy Spirit.
Excellent show! Thanks for addressing this issue. ❤
Ive wanted to attend seminary not to be a pastor/preacher, but for my own spiritual growth and ability to answer questions that some people ask. BIBLE STUDY IS SO EXCITING! And I have a strong desire for eschatology- even to point of writing beg/med level escatological book specific for young adults.
Wesleyan here! I'm thankful this is a non-issue in our tradition. Women are respected and treated rightly as co-heirs in Christ. We have several ordained female pastors as well as our male pastors and it's never a competition. They're all laboring together for Christ and His church. I love that if my daughter feels sincerely called into the role of minister, she has a church structure that will encourage and help her along that path not shame her for it. Growing up I truly felt called to full-time ministry, but was in a more reformed type of church that discouraged it. I serve in many other ways and ministries over the years, but always wonder if I'd missed my calling because of that. Our lead pastor (a man) says that women are co-equal, co-heirs, and co-laborers in the gospel, and that it wouldn't make sense for 50% of God's co-laborers to sit on the sidelines. Loved that!👏🙌
Acts 2:17
This is so great! As a young woman in ministry I appreciate you sharing this. The greater context of the Bible shows that Jesus uplifted women and came to usher in a new Kingdom that redeemed and empowered women! Some of his own apostles and leaders were women, and the gospel writers make a point to emphasize it. But reading the Bible without context of Jewish culture and greek culture can cause a misinterpretation of the word.
I love how Allie clearly shows from Scripture that females are not eligible to be pastors and then people come on and talk about how their feelings say it's ok because "feelings". It is against Scripture. Period. Despite your feelings.
Oooh man. The Lord knew what He was doing not putting me in one of these Patriarchal communities. We would have Prob. Lems. Of course women can speak on theology. I’ll discuss Biblical things with anyone anywhere.
Women cannot be pastors/priest. Because of what Allie speaks to of the Biblical order. It’s good for men to lead and take responsibility. To love women and children and do that. But of course women can speak the gospel. Speak to theology. Share their story. There are so many women Saints who did just that. Women were doctors of the Church!
Yeah, I think the scriptures are pretty clear. Women are not to teach or exercise authority over a man. It doesn't forbid women from speaking about the bible outside the church.
You need to bring on Mike Winger!!
You should also bring on Dale Partridge
My mom was not only a middle school teacher but she taught my Sunday school class too back when I was a kid. She did an amazing job. My church also has amazing female youth pastors. I believe it doesn't matter whether you're male or female; anyone can teach the gospel
A church has one head priest nor pastor. That should be a man. That pastor is not only suppose to teach the Bible, but baptize, perform marriage rituals, communion. That should only be a male. It’s a males responsibility that God gave as a commandment.
@@SM-2gmnl I have to agree. Priestesses were always Pagan and emasculated men!
Loved this episode. This podcast (you and your team) have been such a blessing to me. Thank you! 🤍
Best coffee clutch ever Allie! Yes there are men like myself that believe in other christian assessments of the faith and theologist perspective. We are blessed with grace from GOD male and female and our duty even in not the formal setting is to teach and speak God's message of truth and salvation among those who believe and those who need more understanding of the word. God has had in his plan formally to give the gift of religious teaching in public to men first...but never rejected women to never teach. As we have duties in life women are very important to nurture children and the community to live in a unison harmony in Gods acceptance for men and women.
We need a part 2 where you go a little deeper in the egalitarian concepts.
Absolutely wonderful episode today.
Calvary Baptist Church in Mount Pearl, Newfoundland is one of the few complimentarian churches in the entire province. One thing we have done as a local church is to illustrate and demonstrate how beneficial it is to hold to this doctrine. We have more women serving than most egalitarian churches and they are happy to serve! For some reason, the egalitarian churches here all seem to have gone off the rails with the alphabet ideology and the local churches are now declining significantly. Thank you for bringing this issue to light, Allie!
I am slightly offended that Beth Moore's face is even in the same thumbnail as Elisabeth Elliot..she was a treasure, full of wisdom, and a beautiful example of godly womanhood and self sacrifice 💛 Beth, uhhhhh?
That’s the point! 😀 Is that they’re being placed in the same camp by those who say women shouldn’t teach *at all.*
@@AllieBethStuckey ahhhh, of course. 🙈 that is ridiculous! (also, not really offended 😘)
@@AllieBethStuckey Whew! I got nervous when I saw that too
It’s not a woman’s place to teach men.
Anyone who says otherwise is wilfully going against Gods will.
Women only have authority and tutorship over their children and elder or wiser women over younger women.
The bible states in numerous places that a wife must submit to her husband. And because of the sin Eve committed God placed a curse on all women saying “your desire will be contrary to your husbands but he will rule over you”
It also says it is a shame for a woman to teach in the synagogue.
Stop trying to justify your new age feminist beliefs you have been brainwashed by feminism. And the NWO created and paid for and enforced feminism. It’s evil. All of you women would be so much happier if you accepted your roles in society.
Satan wants to invert all of Gods creation and that includes exalting women over man. Which is backwards and is destroying our society. Satan needs to weaken and feminize men and turn women against us to gain power and take more souls with him to hell. Anyone living in western society under the age of 40 is growing up in a generation of Ahabs and Jezebels and it’s dangerous and disgusting. Wake up!
@Allie Beth Stuckey Elizabeth used to teach at Ligonier conferences. Again, outside a church setting, so I am fine with her sharing the stage with ordained men. And no, they weren't having worship services
Love this perspective. Gotta be honest though, all I can think about is how cute it would be to put Christmas lights on the cactus behind you for the holidays 🤣
God bless you Allie and your whole family! From France 🇫🇷
I appreciate your perspective, spirit and courage, Allie.
I also saw a comment that women shouldn’t even study theology without her husband first studying it.
Which astounds me. So many women have husbands who are not readers of scripture or even a little bit leading their families.
This is a great discussion.😊
I appreciate your recommendations on some of the women’s authors that you’ve read. It made me think I’d be interested in a general list of books you recommend by male or female authors
She has a list on her website!
Whilst the aim is of course to have male leaders and pastors, however I think of Jackie Pullinger who went off to the most difficult places in Hong Kong and my cousin who went to Papua New Guinea in the 30s as a missionary. We have Deborah and Huldah. When the men don't show, the women will. Wesley had women preach the gospel in the open air.
I have preached at my church but always place myself under the authority of the male pastor. Also...what about giving prophetic words in church? What is teaching? What is giving a prophetic word?
Mike Winger's series is excellent.
If I were the devil I would do anything I could to get complimentarianism to dominate Christianity. Winning this one battle would reduce the number of those working the mission of the Messiah by half.
The devil used whatever method he can to exert his will over other and corrupt people, so you have no point. Maybe you're doing his will for him
One of the many hypocritical things about "conservative Christians" is that they don't allow Satan through the front door when everyone's watching, but they love to sneak him in through the back door when they think no one's watching.
Complimentarianism is biblical, hyper complimentarianism is not nor is the patriarchy movement she talks about here, women are not called to be elders or pastors (exercising authority over a church) but women have many roles as believers that are valuable to God, we are equal to men but some roles are different
I do have my own RUclips channel and speak at very, very small meetings and have tutored & taught at VBC, but, if a big question comes up, I do think the pastor needs to be called in. I could often answer the ? myself, but that creates pockets of understanding vs a unified church. Often if one woman (person) has a big question, other parishioners have that same question. Give the pastor a chance to know the needs of & shepherd his flock.
I've been teaching 4th and 5th grade Sunday School at my Christian church for about 7 years. I love it and enjoy it soooo much and feel it is my calling. Both my husband and son serve at our church as well, and my husband loves that I teach kids and looks forward to hearing about how the class went and what the kids learned every Sunday. He totally supports me. He sees that I spend hours getting ready for my class every week because I want to make sure that what I teach the kids are biblical facts and truths. I am so careful not to skip steps or look for the easy way or make up stuff. Everything has to come from the bible. Just knowing that I am being used as a tool to plant a little seed of God's love in their hearts, is the best feeling ever. That is why I know God is happy and is using me to teach the bible, because I feel his words, and not mine, flow out of my mouth every Sunday and I see the effect His words have in the lives of these children and their families. And All for His Glory. But on that note, I personally, dont believe women should be pastors. I believe our church is a body, and as in a family unit, the head of the body should be a male. I believe men do have authority over women, and each gender should have their place and role in society. I have tried listening to women pastors and I cannot feel myself responding to the message in the same way I do to a male pastor.
you wrote:
But on that note, I personally, dont believe women should be pastors.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Reply for it if desired.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
That is how a woman could judge
men of their sins, including homicide.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
@@user-iz8np3vv4ishe was not a pastor, please go back to the scriptures
@@wendymtzc
A Judge at this time, was VERY different from a judge in our time.
The Judge was over the nation of Israel. But not as a man, as
King, or as a woman, as Queen, because God was not rejected as King as yet.
God ruled Israel through the Judges.
Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV
Major modern English translations like the NASB use
the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
[PASTOR - Origin: late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French pastour,
from Latin pastor ‘shepherd’.]
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
The complementarian theory only works of the man in your life is a strong leader, teacher, and theologian
Unbelievers definitely don't count
I believe complementarianism is the ideal, but not always reality. I'm the daughter of a pastor and unmarried. Sadly, my dad passed away recently and have no desire to marry. He was both my pastor and my teacher in a small church made up of all women. What am I supposed to do? There's no man in my life to be leader, teacher or theologian.
I love your style, your context and your tone of voice, your podcast is been a blessing.
Love you Allie, but most times I listen to you I find myself saying “it’s not about you”.
When she comes with these really complex questions, get your husband or pastor to engage her. Yes, pass the torch. The church is a body with different parts. Yes, that's what is required.
In the Catholic faith we have many approved woman’s works-theological, or even prophetical, permitted to be studied by the faithful handed down to us through the centuries via their writings or the lives of the Saints.
That being said there also have many unapproved works by both men and women that are not healthy for the faithful to study as they contain many errors, novelties, fallacies, or heresies. Especially heresies.
Catholic doesnt believe bible is complete. They have another book as well
.. This is a different religion
One of the reasons why women are so theologically ignorant is because no one is equipping women or encouraging woman to have a robust understanding of the scriptures. Timothy's Mom and Grandmother TRAINED him in the scriptures. We are not to pastor or lead churches, but women most definitely need to know theology and SHOULD be discipled in the scriptures.
Keep doing what you're doing, Allie. Your podcast is NOT sinful, and RUclips is not a church. Your voice is needed.
Allie I have a question- what if you have a male pastor and has a guest woman speak to a male and female Sunday sermon? Do you believe that is okay or is it wrong? Asking because I visited my family members church and loved the church but was curious if this was wrong.
Can someone just tell me what book she mentioned about Biblical women hood and manhood? I can’t find it now. Thanks!
You keep on talking. I agree. Mike Winger has all the biblical supporting verses in his podcast
Love your show, Allie. Soft complementarian here (thanks for that term, by the way). I was on the fence about the issue, but my church has a Bible Study teacher named Marti. Marti has a PhD in Old Testament, speaks, reads, and writes both Hebrew and Greek. I've learned a ton from her.
My husband and I are soft complementarians. He likes to say, truth is truth. He has listened to Elizabeth Elliot and Phylicia Masonheimer and we've had great conversations through it.
THIS IS SO GOOD AND NEEDED THANK YOU
My home church has women pastors under a male head. This came up when I was younger in our denomination and my father told them that if they were accepting the women's money to attend a seminary, then it was unjust not to hire them.
Ridiculous logic
For those seeking a biblical response, I found Mike Winger's 'Wimen in ministry' teaching series on RUclips very helpful
Oh my gosh, your description of yourself as a child reminds me of my daughters and it makes me so hopeful that they’ll be ok in life 😂😂😂
This quote...."You are not going to out pace me"? 😂
Happy I came upon this episode. I recently started attending a church, trying to find a new church home for my child and me. The first service I attended spoke so strongly to my heart and I felt confirmation that this was our new church home. However, I discovered that the lead pastor's wife also has the title of pastor. I was concerned by this but kept my thoughts to only me and a trusted friend who does not attend this church. The following Sunday the lead pastor, during his sermon, stated that if anyone speaks poorly of his father (whom I am assuming was the previous lead pastor) or his wife he will not entertain such conversations saying it is sewing discontentment among the brethren. My child is very happy with this church, but I now have concerns. It is difficult to know which way to lead as a single mother.
@cmcd7775 I saw your post and you might find one I just made to this site interesting as well. There are so many interpretations of scripture, I always do my own research. I always read the surrounding verses in my own Bible for context as well. Cheers
Thanks Allie for such a reasonable, wise position.
Assuming a woman and her husband are both Believers, how can she be in submission to his spiritual headship if she's off doing her own thing?
Thank you!
Great episode! Love this Allie Beth 💜
Women are allowed to teach other women, but we are not to teach men; it's as simple as that! Why do people choose to ignore what the Bible teaches?
The Bible says in Hebrews to constantly discern between good and evil to become mature Christians.The Word of God should be used to expose the evil.
This was excellent, because I agree with you🎉🎉😊
Be humble and just stand on what God says. It's very clear.
Hey Allie, at least you're asking the question. I tend to agree that ecclesiastical headship is most prominently displayed in pulpit ministry.