"Do some charity work." What a cold, thoughtless thing to say to a person who's been struggling with depression for most of his life. David Foster Wallace was right: people have become desensitized, and it clearly shows with that smug, cynical woman who probably thinks showing even a shred of sympathy is too unhip for her image.
"Pulling a Kurt Cobain" is ridiculous. Cobain's death was not a suicide but quite provably a homicide of a man who actually was looking forward to the future. Such a silly remark is not illuminating, cogent, relevant or useful in the slightest.
eliezerberry To say its "ridiculous" or a "silly remark" is to take the phrase out of the context of Jonathan Franzen's essay to which Mary was referring.
The only likeable person on that panel is the dude who seemed to have known him properly and the lady editor that is sensible. The karr woman is a rubbish human being. "Do some charity work" coz she knows nothing of a mental illness
I almost didn’t click because of the ratio. I’m glad I did. The insensitivities came from just one of the panelists. The others made thoughtful statements.
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill oneself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness' or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.” -David Foster Wallace
Perfect. And after all the bullshit that was said in this clip not one of them came close to a clear representation of the reason why someone takes their own life. David knew exactly what he was talking about. None of the people on that stage are at that point but if they ever do find themselves there I hope they nod in recognition towards the content of this passage before they go.
What the actual fuck. This literally made me sick. It's one of those moments where you witness something so cruel and stupid that you even fail to rationalize how many things are just... fucking wrong. Rest in Piece, David. You will be forever missed.
David foster Wallace said himself depression was narcissistic. Not only would David agree with Mary, but it’s ironic everyone is calling the women “cruel and evil” when it was David that assaulted, stalked, and terrorized her.
what makes me sick is knowing throughout human history, there was been untold suffering experienced by billions of people, but this doo rag wearing nerd thinks he's solely aggrieved by the circumstances of the universe. unfathomable levels of self absorption
“Do some charity work.” might be one of the most vile, insensitive and willfully ignorant utterances I’ve ever had the displeasure to ingest. That statement should haunt her for the rest of her life and career.
What an incredibly inane conversation regarding David Foster Wallace and his life long struggle to create and communicate and reach out. He was known as a kind and generous person and was undeniably a genius of almost unfathomable talent and humanity. He was not jaded, not bored by life, and most certainly not a selfish human being. He was a keen observer of life and human behavior and struggled for decades to overcome the mental illness that he suffered from. His suicide was not a 'stunt' or a premeditated play for publicity. His work and his reputation as a writer and thinker were firmly established and the number of awards and enormous amount of recognition he garnered in his life were, if anything, a bit uncomfortable for him and he did not write to win accolades, but to communicate a sense of hope beyond the ironic, which he felt was a cop-out intellectually and led to a sort of solipsism that he felt was a trap and cynical and selfish. Had this panel, collectively, had half of his intelligence, humor, insight, and humanity, it would never have presented such a sophmoric response to a great and terrible loss as was the passing of David Foster Wallace. It is sadly clear and clearly illustrated in this nonsensical "conversation" just how much lack of education and understanding there still exists on the issue of mental illness and the stigma associated with it. What a 'below the belt' and obviously simplistic perspective on a huge and troubling issue.
Dude. He totally wrote to receive accolades, he totally was jaded, and lonely outside his experience accepting and adopting AA and its platitudes, he was TOTALLY angry and bored and frustrated and scared that he had pulled the wool and would be found out soon, his work had stagnated, his meds didn't work anymore and he definitely hoped suicide would confirm him. Stop pretending genius means not normal person. I promise you, being a genius is mostly shit and if anything exacerbates loneliness and propensity for rationalization.
@@deane2473 Well said. So much suffering could be avoided if we didn't idolize so much narcissistic elitist bullshit. Infinite Jest was hugely overwritten and could have said the same thing in half the length. I think the Woke infection that has washed across America is the result of the same false pride.
How on earth could you ever discuss why somebody killed themselves. How can that person overtly state "was he pulling a Curt Cobain"? That women seems so intent on not giving in to a hatred of herself that she has resorted to scorning the dead. Like a comment below states; work is immortalised by the content itself, and what it does for people.
I watched the whole 90 minutes of this and some unbelievable insensitivity to his suicide. They all drove me nuts, especially the woman from the New Yorker who is incapable of answering a question in a straightforward manner with genuine emotion. Everything she says is rationalised to death. Who talks and feels like that in real life? Like caricatures of NY intellectuals in a Woody Allen movie.
@@phitdemonThe observation beyond your idea that they are immune from criticism is of more value in understanding DFW. These are his people. Let that sink in.
I don't see them as cruel people, what I've come to know now is that they are a great example of this distant-professional-pretentious way of being "academic." So you kind of reduce and deduce great literature or artists to nothing, because to them, no one can be great accept the speaker. Go to any institution, the moment you show appreciation for some work or individual, you will be tagged and bullied out. They hate awe, they truly hate love too, because they can't feel it or quantify it.
The realm of authors and writers is a cold one. Many of them are narcissistic and sociopathic, and are resentful of not only people in general, but even their so called “friends.” These are the people who hide themselves away in their homes to write, become recluses, and then get pissed off when high school teachers like Wallace come along and write far better works than they could ever hope to write. Wallace then goes around the country giving speeches talking about how NOT to be like the very people who call themselves his friends and peers; the same people (like the insufferable woman in this video) who resent him even in death.
Anyone touched by the suicide of a loved one or one who is sensitive and compassionate OR suffers from depression would find the insensitivity of the comments : "charity work" and "pulling a Cobain" to be unbearably cruel and ignorant. I would like to see how enlightened these people would be in the hell of endless, suffocating depression.
A lot of stupid and trash people. The irony is David foster Wallace said the same thing Mary Karr said about depression. Shows you A how stupid most people are B average people are functionally illiterate and don’t read anything but merely have the pretension of admiring authors C David was a violent abusive man that beat up his girl friends and stalked them. Yet she’s “evil” for making a suggestion for changing one’s life to overcome depression.
The woman who says "do some charity work" is clearly uneducated in depression at any level. She is shameful for making such a harsh comment about what she knows nothing.
I disagree we can never romanticize what he did it's a very very dangerous message hence why the reply is harsh However you are correct there are people who don't have the cognitive ability or empathy to understand depression
@@radcow Understanding that suicide is the symptom of an illness the victim cannot control is not romanticizing it. NOBODY commits suicide because they want to, or because they’re selfish, or any of that shit. People commit suicide because they have an unmitigated history of mental health problems that eat away at their psyche during every second of the day. In David Foster Wallace’s case, he was being treated for his problems with mental health for decades, but the medication caused severe side affect that made him stop taking it under the direction of his doctor. People like her, who act like suicide is a character flaw, cause the topic to be taboo. The taboo in our culture surrounding mental health, and suicidality specifically, is the largest barrier that prevents people from being open and honest/getting help. If David felt he could be honest about how he was feeling, he may gone back on medication, or been stopped by someone in time for him to be put into rehab and do therapy. That woman’s behavior here is disgusting, and is a reflection of her poor empathy skills and insolence. Anyone who excuses her behavior is gross.
depends on the grade of depression, now she clearly had a judgemental tone to her comment which means she probably doesn't care or know much.. that said there's a time in depression therapy where you're in a gray area (not the insufferable emotional pain anymore say) .. in those moments, doing charity is a great idea actually, it has purpose, it's social, it fills your mind with new people, new moments and helps healing a bit more.
It is a disease that I would not wish on anyone. I've been bipolar my entire life and Been hospitalized twice. Is a shame and an agony that is day and day out. It has made me a more compassionate person. The lines that I told myself when I took pills and wrote a note is that the world will be better off without me. I am too much of a burden. I am beyond blessed to have survived to write this to all of you. Just be kind and listen to others and this world will be a much better place ❤ You have no idea how much a smile or a kind word to someone could save their life.
Who else could've said such a vile thing but Mary Karr? She still seems to be really bitter about the failed relationship with him and most likely envies his success as a writer in comparison to her and to such a degree that she can't help but try to ruin his legacy ten years after he's been dead..What a ...
I agree with you mostly. But there's a lot that happened during their relationship on DFW's end that plays a hand in her feelings toward him. I really think the apt thing about this whole exchange is that Deborah Treisman talks about how those close to him might immediately feel anger about his act, and that Karr appears, in this instance, to be of those people. Would she still react that way today - who knows? But if you watch the full tribute - it appears she's clearly still hurting, still trying to reconcile the act. Perhaps I'm overstepping, but I do believe she's acting out of love rather than scorn, or envy as you suggest.
@@vicjames3256 I agree with you somewhat when it comes to the tribute, but the allegations she still makes about him after so many years since his death (now that he can't defend himself anymore) don't come across as an act of love to me; the intentions seem pretty vile. She also seemed quite opportunistic, using the whole MeToo thing as chance to try and destroy his legacy without offering proof. Her general demeanour seems really malignant, but that is just my impression. At the end of the day, we are just outside observers.
@@guruleinii Ay, I forgot about all that. Just reread some of her interviews/articles over the past few years. I stand corrected - def not acting out of love. lol. You are also correct in saying that at the end of the day, we are just outside observers.
@@andrewsmith3737 I'm watching this video and see how old the comments are, and I'm putting myself in the frame of time this was posted. I'm also putting myself into the frame of mind of someone who's lost multiple family members to suicide in relatively short time periods. In the frame of mind of someone who has dealt with severe substance abuse issues, going to prison, at times suicidal. I'm trying to glean as much of this valuable information as I can possibly soak up... And then? I come across your comment. I'm still in 2014 here, personally and with the other commenters. And all I can think when I read your comment is... "what the fuck..? Huh?" Then it dawns on me Ohhh... It's 2020 and the comment is from a few sort weeks ago. Then it kind of makes perfect sense, as well as highlighting just how easily and drastically people's focus has been shaped and warped since 2014. If none of that makes enough sense to cause you to pause, try this. Do better. "Be Best".
Wow.. these people are awful and completely contrary to what DFW has put forward over and over, which is being compassionate, mindful, and making good decisions about how to live is extremely difficult. It never stops being difficult, and for those who are crippled by depression and anxiety it's exceedingly difficult. The suggestion "do some charity work" that sets off another audience member snickering is completely sickening.
Killing oneself is NOT selfish. NOT taking the time and work to fully understand your loved one's pain and do everything in your power to help them, is what is selfish. Every human being is self-absorbed but sensitive people like DFW can easily empathize with others' pain. He knew it was difficult to explain to people what depression is really like. Good lord did he try but since no one close to him could really grasp what he was going through, they assumed he would be alright. When no one understands what you're going through, the world can seem very lonely and pointless.
It is on some level, because someone has to find you. Often a loved one. I know someone who found his father and it sent him on the road to drug addiction.
Nope. Suicide is absolutely selfish. Yes, not taking some time to check in on people you care about is selfish but obviously youre not gonna be thinking theyre gonna kill themselves so suddenly like that. Suicide is weak. Lets not forget that someone has to find you dead too. Pretty selfish considering that person is going to remember that the rest of their lives, traumatized. Imagine if you had to be the person that walked in on Ronnie McNutt after he turned into a demogorgon when he shot himself under the chin. Imagine being the person that saw that. His dog was literally licking the blood off the ground. Pretty selfish of him to do. Essentially since he did it on facebook live so plenty of people saw it and it got shared all over the internet, traumatizing more and more people. Also selfish because he blamed his girlfriend for breaking up with him. Now she has to live with that her entire life. His mom too, i forget how she pissed him off but she did something. My point is suicide is awful and one of it not the most selfish thing a person can do
@@sunkintree youre purposely causing your own death. Thats the difference between suicide and a heart attack. Youre too stupid to realize that its selfish to intentionally kill yourself forcing someone to have to find you dead. A heart attack isnt intentional. It being intentional is what makes it selfish. Do you understand now or do you need it dumbed down more?
After doing some research online and from personally having lived experience with the hell of psych drug withdrawal I can say my view is David Foster Wallace died from Phenelzine (Nardil) withdrawal. It lasted about a year with him, day in day out, he tried everything but nothing helped once the psychiatrist withdrew it. Psychiatrists need to learn what happens to the unlucky group who developProlonged Acute Withdrawal, its a hell beyond words. A touching interview with his sister: Amy Wallace speaks about her brother David Foster Wallace - RUclips
why does everyone suffering from a mental illness feels like they know everyone else suffering from a mental illness inside and out? you have no idea whats going through someone elses mind
someone who struggles wit depression and the dark thoughts, I would say giving reasons can often make someone feel even worse about themselves, the idea of how your going to be a burden to all this people while your alive or dead, ugh its hard to explain with depression because getting up or even wanting to waking up another day is a life struggle.
Ridiculous to think that Cobain had to kill himself to achieve immortality. He was a magnificently gifted performer/musician whose physical and mental maladies took him down...
+Sylvandro Jameson I know like nirvana with their songs wouldnt be popular as it is without his suicide. I listen to nirvana all the time and I barely ever think about Kurt Cobain killing himself. Chick is a complete and utter bore
If he did commit suicide and many question that. He apparently had enough heroin in his system to knock an elephant out but managed to use a shotgun on himself.
Wow one of the few videos on youtube where the comments actually give me faith in humanity... I definitely agree with the sentiment that the panel does a terrible job with this question....
Completely agree. Even 5 years later, I'm still sad he's gone. An absolutely brilliant mind being criticized by that dullard in the audience. It's disgusting.
@@andrewsmith3737 How the fuck can you corollate "liberals" and responding to finding meaning or happiness with "do some charity work"? do you just associate everything you disagree with or don't like with liberals?
what is worse with depression is that sometimes its hard to admit we are depressed. Its because a high pride, or loneliness, or expectation from others.
Famous people with depression don't kill themselves for a legacy and to be more famous. They do it because of depression. It's a disorder. I have it too not all of us make it. It's basically minor, moderate, and major. Obviously he had major. It's good that people that don't have it ask questions but frankly it's a long-term disease that causes pain every day so please don't act surprised when one of us throws in the towel. My friend Stephanie just did it last year after a long fight -- she was 27.
“Was he pulling a Kurt Cobain”, no because A) Kurt may have been murdered and B) David was not some fame freak. He did interviews for his books and his success was the result of his writing talent. There’s a lot of unwarranted blame in that question.
My question exactly! I'm a psychology major and I try to reduce stigma against mental illness as much as I can in my direct environment by informing people and stuff. Bitches like these who say: 'do some charity work' have no idea what depression is like and have no clue of what it is like to wake up every morning feeling useless, out of energy, and sad.
I think suicide is just one more way we seek to control ourselves, our lives, our experiences, and how we relate to the universe. It's not all that special or unique in that regard.
Is there a more extended version of this discussion? I agree with a lot of the comments below r.e. seemingly callous remarks about depression but a little context could be helpful.
What an abomination this panel is. Even the title of this video is repulsive. This is someone's very bad idea and it's an insult to humanity not just to Kurt and David.
As someone who lost the love of my life to sudden and shocking suicide - and have been dead inside myself ever since - I really don't appreciate these people theorising and casually dissecting the great, great David Foster Wallace.
I don't see them as cruel people, what I've come to know now is that they are a great example of this distant-professional-pretentious way of being "academic." So you kind of reduce and deduce great literature or artists to nothing, because to them, no one can be great accept the speaker. Go to any institution, the moment you show appreciation for some work or individual, you will be tagged and bullied out. They hate awe, they truly hate love too, because they can't feel it or quantify it.
The only redeeming thing about viewing this video, is seeing how many others are disgusted by the level of insensitivity and presumptuousness and callousness these people are displaying about the life of a wonderful fucking human being. Kurt Cobain factor? Do some charity work? This is exactly why I love to read intelligent, sensitive, compassionate authors: escape from the cruelty and stupidity of the world.
I was really disappointed by this section. I know that Mary Karr and David Foster Wallace's relationship was very volatile and Wallace was very nasty to her, which may have sparked some of the spite in her comment. But as a comment on depression, saying "do some charity work," is incredibly flippant and not at all understanding how deep into a pit of despair depression can take you, especially when it is severe and battled over decades like it was for him. It's a little bit of a shame. Most of this discussion was actually quite good, and this comment doesn't take away from that. I learned a lot about Wallace I didn't know before.
Depression is a neurobiological disease that cannot always be successfully treated medically. People who want attention may threaten suicide, but if they make an attempt it is usually a weak one. Suicide as with DFW is not done out of selfishness. The hopeless despair felt cannot be understood by "normal" people. The pain of living becomes so unbearable it defies logic, reason or even love. It is a ruthless killer of people from all strata--a tragedy in every case.
It's important to be self-aware and choose the right time and place to share those kinds of comments or 'heckling.' Don't make the discussion about yourself when it's not. When discussing why someone consciously took their own life, saying 'Why didn't you just...?' shows a lack of awareness and can't be taken seriously. "Just try harder!" No one wants to escape that kind of pain more than the person enduring it. No one is more desperate for something-anything-to work. That's why suicides happen-they're willing to take the risk that anything else might be better than what they're going through.
Unfortunately it truly is something that a person can never TRULY understand without dealing with it first hand. I appreciate anyone trying their best to put themselves in another person's shoes, but everyone else is just not worth even explaining it to because the odds are they are stuck in their ways and incapable of seeing the reality.
"O My Lord, the poor one hath verily hastened unto the Kingdom of Thy wealth, the stranger unto his home within Thy precincts, he that is sore athirst to the heavenly river of Thy bounty. Deprive him not, O Lord, from his share of the banquet of Thy grace and from the favor of Thy bounty." ~ Baha'i Prayer
I can't recall what he said at this point. I remember something about him *insinuating* that Wallace had homicidal tendencies and that certain of the characters in Brief Interviews were based on him. Some of those characters were sociopaths and one was a sociopathic rapist/murder. Maybe that's true, but it's not something you obliquely insinuate about your recently dead friend, leaving readers to make the worst possible interpretations.
Whichever woman says, “Do some charity work...” What a cold, insensitive thing to say. I can only hope she knew him personally and is grieving and speaking in anger because she misses him. If not, she has a lot of work to do on developing empathy.
@@williambartholmey5946 In the context of mental illness, and having audience members who might have been struggling with suicidal thoughts, it was an awful thing to say.
"do some charity work" someone clearly doesn't understand how uniquely cathartic writing is to a writer. what an arrogant thing to say, which also reeks of unsolicited virtue-signaling
When you’re so depressed for so long eventually you just want it to stop. The deep pain that comes with not caring about anything can’t be understated. I guarantee these people you can’t volunteer for charities out of this and he didn’t do it to cement his fame or whatever. Whenever people are desperate enough to commit suicide it’s because living has gotten too painful and the seduction of nonexistence has become too great. People who don’t know any better are so confused why anyone would kill themselves when they have so much to be thankful for and maybe these people are even jealous of their success (you have what I want so why aren’t you happy?) The value of life doesn’t come from trappings of success or even how many people around you love you. It comes from experiencing it in all it’s emotional color. Depressed people only see grey. One event isn’t much different from the next. Life becomes so tedious and boring day in day out and you don’t see any point to any of it. Imagine sitting in a small white room with bright fluorescent lighting and being asked to press a button 24/7. You don’t know the reason for it but you know you have to keep doing it. Sometimes someone over the intercom will cheerily announce that you pressed the button X amount of times. You know you’re supposed to be excited about that but you’re just not. Do you really think that someone in that state of mind cares about anything when it all feels so trivial?
I really didn't get the same vibe from the Franzen article that you did. What I took from it was that he felt deep grief and simply could not understand why his best friend would kill himself (i.e., Kübler-Ross's anger stage as applied to mourners). He was still processing it all. In all honesty, I don't know if DFW would have wanted anything other than Franzen's honest, flawed expression of grief. Although I haven't read everything DFW wrote, what I have read leads me to that inference.
This is a horrific conversation to witness. Pretentious, inane speculation about a subject requiring too much heart for this pathetic panel. Disgusting.
The first woman's response is logical and sensitive, and so is the man's, perhaps to a lesser extent. The only thing ruining this video is that stupid, flippant comment about charity work.
The "do some charity work" comment is the only thing I have a real problem with here. The man and woman on the right are handling the question with compassion and tact. I don't see why everyone is so full of hate for them.
"Pulling a Kurt Cobain". How ignorant, callous and insulting to both men and really anyone affected by suicide and mental illness. As it happens, Franzen's article was itself a nasty piece containing vicious innuendo. With friends like him, DFW wouldn't have needed enemies.
You have a right to your personal perspective, so keep in mind that one person's struggle is not a template for everyone else to follow. If a person has many talents upon which to draw for personal meaning--as well as the vital quality of resiliency, which you apparently possess--then the odds are in that person's favor. It's not about weakness v. strength, IMO. It's about what's in one's personal survival toolkit. Kudos to you for being well-equipped. Not everyone's that lucky.
The comments on the woman, saying do some charity work were in my opinion somewhat unfair. I am 64 and have suffered with major depression most of my life. One serious attempt to kill myself in 2004. Have tried many different types of anti-depressants, none helped ! .We can all say the wrong thing at some time. In this ladies case, it is only, I think, that she cannot have any understanding of what it is like. I do however think the original question/statement about Cobain to be silly and in poor taste!
I agree. It's so vainly callous to blurt out on stage "Do some charity work" when discussing mental illness as it's a condition that is complex and biologically confounding. It reminds me of the "Get a job" jabs at those who are genuinely unemployed and seeking a job.
I couldn't agree more michael. This clip irks me on many levels. A stage of (what would seem like) pretentious people picking apart a brilliant man's suicide with such levity
Very true. It's the same lazy, cynical response David spoke and was critical of in response to the American cultures (not to omit others or group everyone as a whole) general response to serious issues. A sort of nonchalant hand-wave. He was absolutely right.
I've suffered Bipolar Disorder before it was readily diagnosed. I finally did obtain effective medications, but I still had a breakthrough 9 month period of deepest black depression, every single moment of every single day. One day may Dad started giving me the "Well, just pull yourself up by your boot-straps" advice. For the first time in my life, I spoke back in sheer anger at my Dad: "You don't know what the hell you're talking about." Then I gave him a list of books that if he cared to understand it, he might read rather than talk off the top of his head. Months later, maybe even after the depression had lifted, I found him actually talking halfway intelligently about the matter. To my complete surprise, he had read the books and gained some understanding.
Fortunately your father is teachable. This is a panel of literary academics. DFW’s intellectual “peers”. It appears they have missed the DFW boat and are smugly oblivious, perhaps in spite of relationships with him.
This is absurd. He was depressed. Tried to switch to a new medication with fewer side effects. It didn’t work. Went back to the old medication. It no longer worked. Brains are weird that way. He held on as long as he could then couldn’t stand it anymore.
People commit suicide from the unbearable pain of mental illness, to end the pain. I’ve had to endure it myself. The first woman to respond said so. Moralistic “answers” like “do some charity work” or “pulling a Cobain” (as if vanity has somehow been established as a factual cause) are unworthy of a New Yorker panel.
Cobain didn't off himself to achieve immortality, he became a huge rockstar and didn't realize it would become just a job like any other. He became responsible for a wife, kid, mortgage payments, a huge staff of techs, roadies, nannies - everyone dependent on someone who didn't want the job. Add to that a hopeless H addiction, bipolar disorder, and stomach pain - not much joy in that world.
He killed himself because he was depressed, chronic pain, isolated, on drugs, and under too much pressure. People wouldn’t leave him alone and were trying to force him to tour, force him to get clean, else Courtney would leave Kurt and geffen would drop him. Also, Courtney cheated on Kurt which broke his heart.
How dare these people turn one man's torment into speculation and spectacle! They are completely clueless about the agonies of serious mental illness. Five minutes in their company would make me want to leap into the void.
DFW was on an MAOI medication and had ECT prior to his death. MAOIs are the med of last resort for those with intractable depression. This was some glib BS.
Disgusting people. I’m at a complete loss how the people in the panel seem to lack any understanding of suicide and the mechanisms and circumstances that cause it.
There is no way this 'roommate' really knew anything about DFW, certainly not the pain he would have endured to do what he did. It says in the blurb above 'Costello, probably the person who best understood Wallace.' Really??? The person who said he ended his life in order to 'pull a Cobain' and be more famous??? This is going through NO ONE'S head when they take their own life. Not one person. And yes, as for the charity comment? Wow, just mind blowing ignorance.
Sigh. If the average person had the capacity to understand why anyone could end themselves, they would also do so. Figuring out the maze that led someone there will lead you there as well. This is absolutely ghoulish.
When I think of suicide, there is a balance. On one hand, I will never accept it. It cannot be the right answer. On the other hand, who’s to judge. This world can be cruel and they deserve love anyways.
I am fed up with people putting things down to "mental illness" and overlooking the very obvious: Psychiatric drug withdrawal and brain damage from Electroconvulsive 'Therapy'. People will often defend psychiatric drugs because when a person goes off them, they become erratic. People mistakenly assume that because they are not taking the drugs that their "illness" is reemerging when in actual fact it's chronic withdrawal from the drugs. "Oh, he couldn't write anymore." - Well could you write going through psychiatric drug withdrawal and after sustaining permanent brain damage from ECT?
It's a touch strange to see a 'panel' assemble to discuss such a topic. Any motives which would compel one to suicide will be so deeply personal that they must necessarily prevent other people from ever really understanding them. The discussion becomes almost absurd, given that those who were closest will likely be those who are left most bewildered. There's irony here somewhere, I just know it; if there were corporate sponsors present for this event, it might even mirror the setting of something he'd write. Either case, I find this sort of speculation totally boring, and also a bit insensitive. Then again, being surrounded by mortality is an awkward set of conditions, so whatever gets you through it, I guess. Still, the theme somehow reminds me of Morrissey's _Paint A Vulgar Picture._ Prescient as Wallace was, he must've seen this all coming. Shit, now _I'm_ speculating. Well, there's the irony! Nah, maybe that's just my hypocrisy.
Holding a panel to try and tease out reasons of one's suicide frustrates me simply because it's such a complex issue, there's never one overriding factor, but I disagree with you on his inability to write. Given writing can function not only as a career but also as a means of expression it's unfair to say that's 'trivial'. Give Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar a read, being unable to write seemed to be her most significant reason for attempting suicide.
I don't see them as cruel people, what I've come to know now is that they are a great example of this distant-professional-pretentious way of being "academic." So you kind of reduce and deduce great literature or artists to nothing, because to them, no one can be great accept the speaker. Go to any institution, the moment you show appreciation for some work or individual, you will be tagged and bullied out. They hate awe, they truly hate love too, because they can't feel it or quantify it.
Writers are a jealous breed man. You can just feel it: all of the people in DFW's orbit know, deep down, that he's the one that'll be rmembered. the Karr's of the world will drop off probably within their own lifetimes.
The Drugs/ happy pills simply dont work ( long-term )...every dis-ease nowadays wants a short-term solution...whereas long-term prevention , starting with our children/ youth, is key...maybe I'm simplifying this...and this will probably be deleted...
Kurt Cobain definitely didn’t kill himself to be immortalized in that aspect. I read everything there is on him and if he did in fact kill himself, he was extremely depressed, confused, lonely, etc. with his whole new life that just appeared over night.
Why on earth can this conversation take place in this manner? You have to ask questions about yourself before you ever think it’s remotely okay to answer questions about why someone takes their own life. These are timid, weak and small minds at play.
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"Do some charity work." What a cold, thoughtless thing to say to a person who's been struggling with depression for most of his life. David Foster Wallace was right: people have become desensitized, and it clearly shows with that smug, cynical woman who probably thinks showing even a shred of sympathy is too unhip for her image.
I thought the same thing when she said that. It just shows what type of person the bitch is.
This is what David was warning how our interactions are becoming so cynical and ironic it's messed up
She doesn't get it. I don't know if anyone who hasn't suffered from major depression can fully understand.
@Jared on Brave Browser I’m almost afraid to ask. What? Are you saying women are incapable of love? No offense, but your comment is mostly incoherent.
My uncle told me the same thing after I was in the hospital feeling depress..He said ..."Do some charity work" and I was like WOOWW what a prick.
"pulling a kurt cobain"???? what does that even mean? what an idiotic remark.
+Allen Wilson I know eh. I am so pissed off with that woman. Complete moron. who the fuck is she anyway?
The phrase is taken from the essay collection "Farther Away" by Jonathan Franzen (a friend of David's).
"Pulling a Kurt Cobain" is ridiculous. Cobain's death was not a suicide but quite provably a homicide of a man who actually was looking forward to the future. Such a silly remark is not illuminating, cogent, relevant or useful in the slightest.
eliezerberry To say its "ridiculous" or a "silly remark" is to take the phrase out of the context of Jonathan Franzen's essay to which Mary was referring.
"Pulling a Kurt Cobain" is ridiculous. Neither compelling nor illuminating. I expect better from a writer of Jonathan Franzen's caliber.
A brief interview with hideous people.
The only likeable person on that panel is the dude who seemed to have known him properly and the lady editor that is sensible. The karr woman is a rubbish human being. "Do some charity work" coz she knows nothing of a mental illness
Hahahahahahahha that's a very good one.
I almost didn’t click because of the ratio. I’m glad I did. The insensitivities came from just one of the panelists. The others made thoughtful statements.
Clever
No wonder a smart person like Wallace was depressed with this kind of company, and no wonder he's the one who produced the best work
Urgh...Mary Karr is pretty fucking good
“Do some charity work.” The most insensitive comment I’ve ever heard. Speaks volumes about her person.
Vincent you come across as a man who’s never achieved anything or ever attempted to make a change in your life.
@Vincent you sound like someone who wants to polish DFW’s rod.
Amen to that!!!
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill oneself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness' or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
-David Foster Wallace
R0ACH44 wow I’m speechless
Thank you
Perfect. And after all the bullshit that was said in this clip not one of them came close to a clear representation of the reason why someone takes their own life. David knew exactly what he was talking about. None of the people on that stage are at that point but if they ever do find themselves there I hope they nod in recognition towards the content of this passage before they go.
thank you
brilliant comment
What the actual fuck. This literally made me sick. It's one of those moments where you witness something so cruel and stupid that you even fail to rationalize how many things are just... fucking wrong. Rest in Piece, David. You will be forever missed.
David foster Wallace said himself depression was narcissistic. Not only would David agree with Mary, but it’s ironic everyone is calling the women “cruel and evil” when it was David that assaulted, stalked, and terrorized her.
@@smkxodnwbwkdns8369 How so? A bit of details? Genuine question!
what makes me sick is knowing throughout human history, there was been untold suffering experienced by billions of people, but this doo rag wearing nerd thinks he's solely aggrieved by the circumstances of the universe. unfathomable levels of self absorption
@@smkxodnwbwkdns8369so what?
“Do some charity work.” might be one of the most vile, insensitive and willfully ignorant utterances I’ve ever had the displeasure to ingest. That statement should haunt her for the rest of her life and career.
What about when David foster Wallace expounded the same principal? You idlot.
it is wildly insensitive, but shows her own insecurities and anger and frustration. love everyone
white women. not even once.
@@jon8004 Cool.
I mean, DFW abused and stalked her, so I'm pretty sure “Do some charity work” not what will stick with her.
What an incredibly inane conversation regarding David Foster Wallace and his life long struggle to create and communicate and reach out. He was known as a kind and generous person and was undeniably a genius of almost unfathomable talent and humanity. He was not jaded, not bored by life, and most certainly not a selfish human being. He was a keen observer of life and human behavior and struggled for decades to overcome the mental illness that he suffered from. His suicide was not a 'stunt' or a premeditated play for publicity. His work and his reputation as a writer and thinker were firmly established and the number of awards and enormous amount of recognition he garnered in his life were, if anything, a bit uncomfortable for him and he did not write to win accolades, but to communicate a sense of hope beyond the ironic, which he felt was a cop-out intellectually and led to a sort of solipsism that he felt was a trap and cynical and selfish. Had this panel, collectively, had half of his intelligence, humor, insight, and humanity, it would never have presented such a sophmoric response to a great and terrible loss as was the passing of David Foster Wallace.
It is sadly clear and clearly illustrated in this nonsensical "conversation" just how much lack of education and understanding there still exists on the issue of mental illness and the stigma associated with it. What a 'below the belt' and obviously simplistic perspective on a huge and troubling issue.
Otie Jason
you dumbass he had clinical depression. His brain was telling him constantly that there's no point to this meaningless existence.
Dude. He totally wrote to receive accolades, he totally was jaded, and lonely outside his experience accepting and adopting AA and its platitudes, he was TOTALLY angry and bored and frustrated and scared that he had pulled the wool and would be found out soon, his work had stagnated, his meds didn't work anymore and he definitely hoped suicide would confirm him. Stop pretending genius means not normal person. I promise you, being a genius is mostly shit and if anything exacerbates loneliness and propensity for rationalization.
Dean Edwards the end of your comment is most definitely true “stop pretending....” Ect
@@deane2473 Well said. So much suffering could be avoided if we didn't idolize so much narcissistic elitist bullshit. Infinite Jest was hugely overwritten and could have said the same thing in half the length. I think the Woke infection that has washed across America is the result of the same false pride.
So well said and summarized. Thank you.
Unbelievable people. Just the opposite of what David Foster Wallace represented.
How on earth could you ever discuss why somebody killed themselves. How can that person overtly state "was he pulling a Curt Cobain"? That women seems so intent on not giving in to a hatred of herself that she has resorted to scorning the dead. Like a comment below states; work is immortalised by the content itself, and what it does for people.
She's some kind of a c*nt ain't she?
"How on earth could you ever discuss why somebody killed themselves. " what a dumb and short sighted statement.
I watched the whole 90 minutes of this and some unbelievable insensitivity to his suicide.
They all drove me nuts, especially the woman from the New Yorker who is incapable of answering a question in a straightforward manner with genuine emotion. Everything she says is rationalised to death. Who talks and feels like that in real life? Like caricatures of NY intellectuals in a Woody Allen movie.
Perfectly put, friend.
These people actually knew David. Who are you?
@@GcssdvnkloiutescAh, so the fact that they knew him is what makes them immune to criticism. Thank you for clarifying.
@@phitdemonThe observation beyond your idea that they are immune from criticism is of more value in understanding DFW. These are his people. Let that sink in.
I wouldn't have guessed that these people who consider themselves close to DFW to trivialize his death in such a cruel manner.
I don't see them as cruel people, what I've come to know now is that they are a great example of this distant-professional-pretentious way of being "academic." So you kind of reduce and deduce great literature or artists to nothing, because to them, no one can be great accept the speaker. Go to any institution, the moment you show appreciation for some work or individual, you will be tagged and bullied out. They hate awe, they truly hate love too, because they can't feel it or quantify it.
The realm of authors and writers is a cold one. Many of them are narcissistic and sociopathic, and are resentful of not only people in general, but even their so called “friends.” These are the people who hide themselves away in their homes to write, become recluses, and then get pissed off when high school teachers like Wallace come along and write far better works than they could ever hope to write. Wallace then goes around the country giving speeches talking about how NOT to be like the very people who call themselves his friends and peers; the same people (like the insufferable woman in this video) who resent him even in death.
@@OBroIchain There is a lot of jealousy there.
did she seriously just say "do some charity work." ?
and she dated him, too. according to his wiki he tattooed her name on his body. goddamn.
that was by far the dumbest thing I heard in this video
must be super fucking bitter that he's gone
@@knose9253 Really!? Jesus, there's an unironic bang of Courtney Love off her so
Anyone touched by the suicide of a loved one or one who is sensitive and compassionate OR suffers from depression would find the insensitivity of the comments : "charity work" and "pulling a Cobain" to be unbearably cruel and ignorant.
I would like to see how enlightened these people would be in the hell of endless, suffocating depression.
If it was only that simple.
Pulling a Cobain is an absolutely legitimate thing to ask. ALL OF US ARTIST HAVE THOUGHT THIS.
I actually feel relieved at how many people have condemned what’s happening here in the comment section
A lot of stupid and trash people. The irony is David foster Wallace said the same thing Mary Karr said about depression. Shows you A how stupid most people are B average people are functionally illiterate and don’t read anything but merely have the pretension of admiring authors C David was a violent abusive man that beat up his girl friends and stalked them. Yet she’s “evil” for making a suggestion for changing one’s life to overcome depression.
The woman who says "do some charity work" is clearly uneducated in depression at any level. She is shameful for making such a harsh comment about what she knows nothing.
I disagree we can never romanticize what he did it's a very very dangerous message hence why the reply is harsh
However you are correct there are people who don't have the cognitive ability or empathy to understand depression
@@radcow
Nobody was trying to romanticize anything. She's just a judgmental ignorant smug bitch.
@@radcow Understanding that suicide is the symptom of an illness the victim cannot control is not romanticizing it. NOBODY commits suicide because they want to, or because they’re selfish, or any of that shit. People commit suicide because they have an unmitigated history of mental health problems that eat away at their psyche during every second of the day. In David Foster Wallace’s case, he was being treated for his problems with mental health for decades, but the medication caused severe side affect that made him stop taking it under the direction of his doctor. People like her, who act like suicide is a character flaw, cause the topic to be taboo. The taboo in our culture surrounding mental health, and suicidality specifically, is the largest barrier that prevents people from being open and honest/getting help. If David felt he could be honest about how he was feeling, he may gone back on medication, or been stopped by someone in time for him to be put into rehab and do therapy. That woman’s behavior here is disgusting, and is a reflection of her poor empathy skills and insolence. Anyone who excuses her behavior is gross.
depends on the grade of depression, now she clearly had a judgemental tone to her comment which means she probably doesn't care or know much.. that said there's a time in depression therapy where you're in a gray area (not the insufferable emotional pain anymore say) .. in those moments, doing charity is a great idea actually, it has purpose, it's social, it fills your mind with new people, new moments and helps healing a bit more.
What is harsh about helping others? It only proves her point about how narcissistic depression is.
Re-title this clip “Lesser minds slander two of the greatest artists of the last thirty years in three minutes or less.”
Maybe not the greatest, but definetly two among many great artists.
It is a disease that I would not wish on anyone. I've been bipolar my entire life and Been hospitalized twice. Is a shame and an agony that is day and day out. It has made me a more compassionate person. The lines that I told myself when I took pills and wrote a note is that the world will be better off without me. I am too much of a burden. I am beyond blessed to have survived to write this to all of you. Just be kind and listen to others and this world will be a much better place ❤ You have no idea how much a smile or a kind word to someone could save their life.
no one gives a fuck that you are bipolar. produce something interesting or be quiet
Who else could've said such a vile thing but Mary Karr? She still seems to be really bitter about the failed relationship with him and most likely envies his success as a writer in comparison to her and to such a degree that she can't help but try to ruin his legacy ten years after he's been dead..What a ...
I agree with you mostly.
But there's a lot that happened during their relationship on DFW's end that plays a hand in her feelings toward him.
I really think the apt thing about this whole exchange is that Deborah Treisman talks about how those close to him might immediately feel anger about his act, and that Karr appears, in this instance, to be of those people.
Would she still react that way today - who knows?
But if you watch the full tribute - it appears she's clearly still hurting, still trying to reconcile the act.
Perhaps I'm overstepping, but I do believe she's acting out of love rather than scorn, or envy as you suggest.
@@vicjames3256 I agree with you somewhat when it comes to the tribute, but the allegations she still makes about him after so many years since his death (now that he can't defend himself anymore) don't come across as an act of love to me; the intentions seem pretty vile. She also seemed quite opportunistic, using the whole MeToo thing as chance to try and destroy his legacy without offering proof. Her general demeanour seems really malignant, but that is just my impression. At the end of the day, we are just outside observers.
@@guruleinii Ay, I forgot about all that. Just reread some of her interviews/articles over the past few years. I stand corrected - def not acting out of love. lol. You are also correct in saying that at the end of the day, we are just outside observers.
@@vicjames3256 say something horrible get noticed.
What a misogynistic and ignorant comment.
I actually feel bad for clicking on this video. It's insensitive.
That's how liberals are even though they claim not to be.
@@andrewsmith3737
I'm watching this video and see how old the comments are, and I'm putting myself in the frame of time this was posted. I'm also putting myself into the frame of mind of someone who's lost multiple family members to suicide in relatively short time periods. In the frame of mind of someone who has dealt with severe substance abuse issues, going to prison, at times suicidal. I'm trying to glean as much of this valuable information as I can possibly soak up...
And then?
I come across your comment.
I'm still in 2014 here, personally and with the other commenters.
And all I can think when I read your comment is...
"what the fuck..? Huh?"
Then it dawns on me Ohhh... It's 2020 and the comment is from a few sort weeks ago.
Then it kind of makes perfect sense, as well as highlighting just how easily and drastically people's focus has been shaped and warped since 2014.
If none of that makes enough sense to cause you to pause, try this.
Do better.
"Be Best".
Sorry, but isnt it a truly interesting question to ask?
@@AstroPygmy yeah as someone who's dealt with addiction, major depressive disorder, and the court system I couldn't agree more.
@@AstroPygmy reading this one year later. but, bingo.
Wow.. these people are awful and completely contrary to what DFW has put forward over and over, which is being compassionate, mindful, and making good decisions about how to live is extremely difficult. It never stops being difficult, and for those who are crippled by depression and anxiety it's exceedingly difficult. The suggestion "do some charity work" that sets off another audience member snickering is completely sickening.
You realize David foster Wallace would agree with that comment? You never finished a single book by him have you? You utter dumas
Killing oneself is NOT selfish. NOT taking the time and work to fully understand your loved one's pain and do everything in your power to help them, is what is selfish. Every human being is self-absorbed but sensitive people like DFW can easily empathize with others' pain. He knew it was difficult to explain to people what depression is really like. Good lord did he try but since no one close to him could really grasp what he was going through, they assumed he would be alright. When no one understands what you're going through, the world can seem very lonely and pointless.
freeDumb Is An iLLUsion but isn't depression itself that takes people to that state of numbing blind selfishness?
It is on some level, because someone has to find you. Often a loved one. I know someone who found his father and it sent him on the road to drug addiction.
@@thursoberwick1948 By your logic someone dying of a heart attack is selfish because someone has to find them. Try again, not your best work.
Nope. Suicide is absolutely selfish. Yes, not taking some time to check in on people you care about is selfish but obviously youre not gonna be thinking theyre gonna kill themselves so suddenly like that. Suicide is weak. Lets not forget that someone has to find you dead too. Pretty selfish considering that person is going to remember that the rest of their lives, traumatized. Imagine if you had to be the person that walked in on Ronnie McNutt after he turned into a demogorgon when he shot himself under the chin. Imagine being the person that saw that. His dog was literally licking the blood off the ground. Pretty selfish of him to do. Essentially since he did it on facebook live so plenty of people saw it and it got shared all over the internet, traumatizing more and more people. Also selfish because he blamed his girlfriend for breaking up with him. Now she has to live with that her entire life. His mom too, i forget how she pissed him off but she did something. My point is suicide is awful and one of it not the most selfish thing a person can do
@@sunkintree youre purposely causing your own death. Thats the difference between suicide and a heart attack. Youre too stupid to realize that its selfish to intentionally kill yourself forcing someone to have to find you dead. A heart attack isnt intentional. It being intentional is what makes it selfish. Do you understand now or do you need it dumbed down more?
"He couldn't write anymore." Is that why his last novel, although unfinished, was a pulitzer finalist?
Exactly. They are clueless.
Anyone who thinks DFW killed himself to immortalize his own legacy cannot have read or understood a single sentence he ever wrote
dfw elaborates on their answers when he said people just want to sound "clever" rather than know the truth.
After doing some research online and from personally having lived experience with the hell of psych drug withdrawal I can say my view is David Foster Wallace died from Phenelzine (Nardil) withdrawal. It lasted about a year with him, day in day out, he tried everything but nothing helped once the psychiatrist withdrew it. Psychiatrists need to learn what happens to the unlucky group who developProlonged Acute Withdrawal, its a hell beyond words. A touching interview with his sister: Amy Wallace speaks about her brother David Foster Wallace - RUclips
why does everyone suffering from a mental illness feels like they know everyone else suffering from a mental illness inside and out? you have no idea whats going through someone elses mind
Didn't he get put back on Nardil, though? That should have if the depression was caused by PAWS been alleviated by the reintroduction of the drug.
After hearing what she had to say about DFW, I'm not sure if I want to read her memoirs much less her poetry.
I watch this video to remind myself why people no longer read, I read Wallace to remind myself why I still do
someone who struggles wit depression and the dark thoughts, I would say giving reasons can often make someone feel even worse about themselves, the idea of how your going to be a burden to all this people while your alive or dead, ugh its hard to explain with depression because getting up or even wanting to waking up another day is a life struggle.
If one has not experienced bone crushing depression, don't say anything.
Ridiculous to think that Cobain had to kill himself to achieve immortality. He was a magnificently gifted performer/musician whose physical and mental maladies took him down...
+Sylvandro Jameson I know like nirvana with their songs wouldnt be popular as it is without his suicide. I listen to nirvana all the time and I barely ever think about Kurt Cobain killing himself. Chick is a complete and utter bore
Exactly
If he did commit suicide and many question that. He apparently had enough heroin in his system to knock an elephant out but managed to use a shotgun on himself.
It's not ridiculous at all. Are you am artist?? This is a common thought.
@ozzylaza wrong.
Wow one of the few videos on youtube where the comments actually give me faith in humanity... I definitely agree with the sentiment that the panel does a terrible job with this question....
Completely agree. Even 5 years later, I'm still sad he's gone. An absolutely brilliant mind being criticized by that dullard in the audience. It's disgusting.
"Well he couldn't write anymore, so...." wow, the absolute callousness of these vultures.
"Do some charity work"?
Typical liberal response.
california sos especially coming from the New Yorker which I’m not surprised
@@andrewsmith3737 How the fuck can you corollate "liberals" and responding to finding meaning or happiness with "do some charity work"? do you just associate everything you disagree with or don't like with liberals?
what is worse with depression is that sometimes its hard to admit we are depressed. Its because a high pride, or loneliness, or expectation from others.
Famous people with depression don't kill themselves for a legacy and to be more famous. They do it because of depression. It's a disorder. I have it too not all of us make it. It's basically minor, moderate, and major. Obviously he had major. It's good that people that don't have it ask questions but frankly it's a long-term disease that causes pain every day so please don't act surprised when one of us throws in the towel. My friend Stephanie just did it last year after a long fight -- she was 27.
Sending you love and light.
“Was he pulling a Kurt Cobain”, no because A) Kurt may have been murdered and B) David was not some fame freak. He did interviews for his books and his success was the result of his writing talent. There’s a lot of unwarranted blame in that question.
Find that man for disrespecting DFW
Kurt was no fame freak. Agree, he may likely have been murdered. Both and KC and DFW had some non-supportive associations.
“Pulling a Kurt Cobain” she says like it was a running gag. This is just thoughtless
💯
My question exactly! I'm a psychology major and I try to reduce stigma against mental illness as much as I can in my direct environment by informing people and stuff. Bitches like these who say: 'do some charity work' have no idea what depression is like and have no clue of what it is like to wake up every morning feeling useless, out of energy, and sad.
It was an incredibly ignorant thing to say.
I think suicide is just one more way we seek to control ourselves, our lives, our experiences, and how we relate to the universe. It's not all that special or unique in that regard.
Is there a more extended version of this discussion? I agree with a lot of the comments below r.e. seemingly callous remarks about depression but a little context could be helpful.
What an abomination this panel is. Even the title of this video is repulsive. This is someone's very bad idea and it's an insult to humanity not just to Kurt and David.
As someone who lost the love of my life to sudden and shocking suicide - and have been dead inside myself ever since - I really don't appreciate these people theorising and casually dissecting the great, great David Foster Wallace.
How can this get unseen by me? Such a disaster! :-(
shit i wont watch it then
I don't see them as cruel people, what I've come to know now is that they are a great example of this distant-professional-pretentious way of being "academic." So you kind of reduce and deduce great literature or artists to nothing, because to them, no one can be great accept the speaker. Go to any institution, the moment you show appreciation for some work or individual, you will be tagged and bullied out. They hate awe, they truly hate love too, because they can't feel it or quantify it.
The only redeeming thing about viewing this video, is seeing how many others are disgusted by the level of insensitivity and presumptuousness and callousness these people are displaying about the life of a wonderful fucking human being. Kurt Cobain factor? Do some charity work? This is exactly why I love to read intelligent, sensitive, compassionate authors: escape from the cruelty and stupidity of the world.
This is vicious and incorrect.
I was really disappointed by this section. I know that Mary Karr and David Foster Wallace's relationship was very volatile and Wallace was very nasty to her, which may have sparked some of the spite in her comment. But as a comment on depression, saying "do some charity work," is incredibly flippant and not at all understanding how deep into a pit of despair depression can take you, especially when it is severe and battled over decades like it was for him.
It's a little bit of a shame. Most of this discussion was actually quite good, and this comment doesn't take away from that. I learned a lot about Wallace I didn't know before.
Depression is a neurobiological disease that cannot always be successfully treated medically. People who want attention may threaten suicide, but if they make an attempt it is usually a weak one. Suicide as with DFW is not done out of selfishness. The hopeless despair felt cannot be understood by "normal" people. The pain of living becomes so unbearable it defies logic, reason or even love. It is a ruthless killer of people from all strata--a tragedy in every case.
Incredibly well put miss! Well said
It's important to be self-aware and choose the right time and place to share those kinds of comments or 'heckling.' Don't make the discussion about yourself when it's not.
When discussing why someone consciously took their own life, saying 'Why didn't you just...?' shows a lack of awareness and can't be taken seriously. "Just try harder!"
No one wants to escape that kind of pain more than the person enduring it. No one is more desperate for something-anything-to work. That's why suicides happen-they're willing to take the risk that anything else might be better than what they're going through.
Unfortunately it truly is something that a person can never TRULY understand without dealing with it first hand. I appreciate anyone trying their best to put themselves in another person's shoes, but everyone else is just not worth even explaining it to because the odds are they are stuck in their ways and incapable of seeing the reality.
"O My Lord, the poor one hath verily hastened unto the Kingdom of Thy wealth, the stranger unto his home within Thy precincts, he that is sore athirst to the heavenly river of Thy bounty. Deprive him not, O Lord, from his share of the banquet of Thy grace and from the favor of Thy bounty." ~ Baha'i Prayer
What a perfect demonstration of the ignorance and arrogance (and soft malevolence that it breeds) of intellectuals.
"It's not like you wake up one day and say I'm going to 'self-delete' myself; you wake up every single day asking yourself how could I not?"
I can't recall what he said at this point. I remember something about him *insinuating* that Wallace had homicidal tendencies and that certain of the characters in Brief Interviews were based on him. Some of those characters were sociopaths and one was a sociopathic rapist/murder. Maybe that's true, but it's not something you obliquely insinuate about your recently dead friend, leaving readers to make the worst possible interpretations.
Whichever woman says, “Do some charity work...” What a cold, insensitive thing to say. I can only hope she knew him personally and is grieving and speaking in anger because she misses him. If not, she has a lot of work to do on developing empathy.
DFW abused and stalked her, so yeah, I'd say she knew him personally.
@@williambartholmey5946 In the context of mental illness, and having audience members who might have been struggling with suicidal thoughts, it was an awful thing to say.
This video benefitted from RUclips's decision to hide dislikes. These are some truly vile, callous people.
"do some charity work"
someone clearly doesn't understand how uniquely cathartic writing is to a writer. what an arrogant thing to say, which also reeks of unsolicited virtue-signaling
When you’re so depressed for so long eventually you just want it to stop. The deep pain that comes with not caring about anything can’t be understated. I guarantee these people you can’t volunteer for charities out of this and he didn’t do it to cement his fame or whatever. Whenever people are desperate enough to commit suicide it’s because living has gotten too painful and the seduction of nonexistence has become too great. People who don’t know any better are so confused why anyone would kill themselves when they have so much to be thankful for and maybe these people are even jealous of their success (you have what I want so why aren’t you happy?) The value of life doesn’t come from trappings of success or even how many people around you love you. It comes from experiencing it in all it’s emotional color. Depressed people only see grey. One event isn’t much different from the next. Life becomes so tedious and boring day in day out and you don’t see any point to any of it.
Imagine sitting in a small white room with bright fluorescent lighting and being asked to press a button 24/7. You don’t know the reason for it but you know you have to keep doing it. Sometimes someone over the intercom will cheerily announce that you pressed the button X amount of times. You know you’re supposed to be excited about that but you’re just not. Do you really think that someone in that state of mind cares about anything when it all feels so trivial?
yup, Wallace himself said similar with that quote about suicide/jumping from the buildings in 9/11
Come again?🕳️
I really didn't get the same vibe from the Franzen article that you did. What I took from it was that he felt deep grief and simply could not understand why his best friend would kill himself (i.e., Kübler-Ross's anger stage as applied to mourners). He was still processing it all. In all honesty, I don't know if DFW would have wanted anything other than Franzen's honest, flawed expression of grief. Although I haven't read everything DFW wrote, what I have read leads me to that inference.
This is a horrific conversation to witness. Pretentious, inane speculation about a subject requiring too much heart for this pathetic panel. Disgusting.
It was his brief look into math logic
And intellectual loneliness
I believe he saw to the end of everything and lost hope
I had no idea he took his own life. After reading the comments, I'm going to have to prepare myself for some extreme insensitivity...
The first woman's response is logical and sensitive, and so is the man's, perhaps to a lesser extent. The only thing ruining this video is that stupid, flippant comment about charity work.
Whoever said "do some charity work" deserves to be curb-stomped.
The "do some charity work" comment is the only thing I have a real problem with here. The man and woman on the right are handling the question with compassion and tact. I don't see why everyone is so full of hate for them.
"Pulling a Kurt Cobain". How ignorant, callous and insulting to both men and really anyone affected by suicide and mental illness.
As it happens, Franzen's article was itself a nasty piece containing vicious innuendo. With friends like him, DFW wouldn't have needed enemies.
You have a right to your personal perspective, so keep in mind that one person's struggle is not a template for everyone else to follow. If a person has many talents upon which to draw for personal meaning--as well as the vital quality of resiliency, which you apparently possess--then the odds are in that person's favor. It's not about weakness v. strength, IMO. It's about what's in one's personal survival toolkit. Kudos to you for being well-equipped. Not everyone's that lucky.
The comments on the woman, saying do some charity work were in my opinion somewhat unfair. I am 64 and have suffered with major depression most of my life. One serious attempt to kill myself in 2004. Have tried many different types of anti-depressants, none helped ! .We can all say the wrong thing at some time. In this ladies case, it is only, I think, that she cannot have any understanding of what it is like. I do however think the original question/statement about Cobain to be silly and in poor taste!
Thank you so much for your thoughts.
I agree. It's so vainly callous to blurt out on stage "Do some charity work" when discussing mental illness as it's a condition that is complex and biologically confounding. It reminds me of the "Get a job" jabs at those who are genuinely unemployed and seeking a job.
I couldn't agree more michael. This clip irks me on many levels. A stage of (what would seem like) pretentious people picking apart a brilliant man's suicide with such levity
Very true. It's the same lazy, cynical response David spoke and was critical of in response to the American cultures (not to omit others or group everyone as a whole) general response to serious issues. A sort of nonchalant hand-wave. He was absolutely right.
So if this isn't the way to mourn or understand a public figure, what is?
I've suffered Bipolar Disorder before it was readily diagnosed. I finally did obtain effective medications, but I still had a breakthrough 9 month period of deepest black depression, every single moment of every single day. One day may Dad started giving me the "Well, just pull yourself up by your boot-straps" advice. For the first time in my life, I spoke back in sheer anger at my Dad: "You don't know what the hell you're talking about." Then I gave him a list of books that if he cared to understand it, he might read rather than talk off the top of his head. Months later, maybe even after the depression had lifted, I found him actually talking halfway intelligently about the matter. To my complete surprise, he had read the books and gained some understanding.
Fortunately your father is teachable. This is a panel of literary academics. DFW’s intellectual “peers”. It appears they have missed the DFW boat and are smugly oblivious, perhaps in spite of relationships with him.
This is absurd. He was depressed. Tried to switch to a new medication with fewer side effects. It didn’t work. Went back to the old medication. It no longer worked. Brains are weird that way. He held on as long as he could then couldn’t stand it anymore.
People commit suicide from the unbearable pain of mental illness, to end the pain. I’ve had to endure it myself. The first woman to respond said so. Moralistic “answers” like “do some charity work” or “pulling a Cobain” (as if vanity has somehow been established as a factual cause) are unworthy of a New Yorker panel.
Cobain didn't off himself to achieve immortality, he became a huge rockstar and didn't realize it would become just a job like any other. He became responsible for a wife, kid, mortgage payments, a huge staff of techs, roadies, nannies - everyone dependent on someone who didn't want the job. Add to that a hopeless H addiction, bipolar disorder, and stomach pain - not much joy in that world.
He killed himself because he was depressed, chronic pain, isolated, on drugs, and under too much pressure. People wouldn’t leave him alone and were trying to force him to tour, force him to get clean, else Courtney would leave Kurt and geffen would drop him. Also, Courtney cheated on Kurt which broke his heart.
How dare these people turn one man's torment into speculation and spectacle! They are completely clueless about the agonies of serious mental illness. Five minutes in their company would make me want to leap into the void.
DFW was on an MAOI medication and had ECT prior to his death. MAOIs are the med of last resort for those with intractable depression. This was some glib BS.
"Pulling a Kurt Cobain." What a horrible phraseology. It isnt a fucking game.
Fame, legacy as an artist, impacting the world, is a game?
Not even Kurt Cobain „was pulling a Kurt Cobain“.
This type of soulless talk is why he did what he did. A member of “panel” is the purest example of what one should strive NOT to be.
Disgusting people. I’m at a complete loss how the people in the panel seem to lack any understanding of suicide and the mechanisms and circumstances that cause it.
There is no way this 'roommate' really knew anything about DFW, certainly not the pain he would have endured to do what he did. It says in the blurb above 'Costello, probably the person who best understood Wallace.' Really??? The person who said he ended his life in order to 'pull a Cobain' and be more famous??? This is going through NO ONE'S head when they take their own life. Not one person.
And yes, as for the charity comment? Wow, just mind blowing ignorance.
Sigh.
If the average person had the capacity to understand why anyone could end themselves, they would also do so. Figuring out the maze that led someone there will lead you there as well. This is absolutely ghoulish.
Are you saying suicidal people have the most precise, articulate, and accurate view of the world/life?
He literally says why someone would kill themselves while he’s still alive. He told us why.
I'm more interested in what he would have written about this discussion.
When I think of suicide, there is a balance. On one hand, I will never accept it. It cannot be the right answer. On the other hand, who’s to judge. This world can be cruel and they deserve love anyways.
I am fed up with people putting things down to "mental illness" and overlooking the very obvious: Psychiatric drug withdrawal and brain damage from Electroconvulsive 'Therapy'. People will often defend psychiatric drugs because when a person goes off them, they become erratic. People mistakenly assume that because they are not taking the drugs that their "illness" is reemerging when in actual fact it's chronic withdrawal from the drugs. "Oh, he couldn't write anymore." - Well could you write going through psychiatric drug withdrawal and after sustaining permanent brain damage from ECT?
Tormented Man Kills Self. Women (annoyed wife, belittling panelists, Mary Karr, et al): This is Now All About Me.
The panelists obviously don't know anything about Cobain and his death.
Yes, a lot of questions. At the very least about his drug use, and the state of his marriage.
The idea of explaining a suicide is ridiculous
Panels are for people who no one wants to interact with directly.
It's a touch strange to see a 'panel' assemble to discuss such a topic. Any motives which would compel one to suicide will be so deeply personal that they must necessarily prevent other people from ever really understanding them. The discussion becomes almost absurd, given that those who were closest will likely be those who are left most bewildered.
There's irony here somewhere, I just know it; if there were corporate sponsors present for this event, it might even mirror the setting of something he'd write. Either case, I find this sort of speculation totally boring, and also a bit insensitive. Then again, being surrounded by mortality is an awkward set of conditions, so whatever gets you through it, I guess. Still, the theme somehow reminds me of Morrissey's _Paint A Vulgar Picture._
Prescient as Wallace was, he must've seen this all coming. Shit, now _I'm_ speculating. Well, there's the irony! Nah, maybe that's just my hypocrisy.
Holding a panel to try and tease out reasons of one's suicide frustrates me simply because it's such a complex issue, there's never one overriding factor, but I disagree with you on his inability to write.
Given writing can function not only as a career but also as a means of expression it's unfair to say that's 'trivial'. Give Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar a read, being unable to write seemed to be her most significant reason for attempting suicide.
I don't see them as cruel people, what I've come to know now is that they are a great example of this distant-professional-pretentious way of being "academic." So you kind of reduce and deduce great literature or artists to nothing, because to them, no one can be great accept the speaker. Go to any institution, the moment you show appreciation for some work or individual, you will be tagged and bullied out. They hate awe, they truly hate love too, because they can't feel it or quantify it.
Dude was not prepared with a question at all
the best often die by their own hand and the rest of us cant understand why they would leave us.
Writers are a jealous breed man. You can just feel it: all of the people in DFW's orbit know, deep down, that he's the one that'll be rmembered. the Karr's of the world will drop off probably within their own lifetimes.
'Pulling a Kurt Cobain' was a very bad analogy. Those who would say that don't know or bother to know what was behind Kurt Cobain's suicide.
The Drugs/ happy pills simply dont work ( long-term )...every dis-ease nowadays wants a short-term solution...whereas long-term prevention , starting with our children/ youth, is key...maybe I'm simplifying this...and this will probably be deleted...
Kurt Cobain definitely didn’t kill himself to be immortalized in that aspect. I read everything there is on him and if he did in fact kill himself, he was extremely depressed, confused, lonely, etc. with his whole new life that just appeared over night.
‘If’ is the key conditional word.
Sure. As if it's always a reason more complicated than the fact that someone simply no longer wants to be here.
Why on earth can this conversation take place in this manner? You have to ask questions about yourself before you ever think it’s remotely okay to answer questions about why someone takes their own life. These are timid, weak and small minds at play.
Wow.. anytime I ever think or someone else thinks I'm a cruel heartless bastard I'll have to save this video to hear that lady. Geez.