Hey all, thanks so much for watching! I know I'm a little late on this topic, but I hope this adds something to the discussion nonetheless. I just started this channel a couple months ago, and this is one of my first real video essays, so any tips, advice, criticisms, etc. would be very appreciated! And a subscribe, of course ;) ANyways let me know what you think about the Orc Families, my take in this video, or any other thoughts you have in the comments below, and I'll look forward to reading them all!
This whole show was such a mess. They had so much potential to tell a story Tolkien basically already wrote, a literal BILLION DOLLARS per season, and they completely botched it. I hope this show ends after this season
Season 1 was good, but had quite some problems with the pacing, season 2 was awesome. They are right now preparing season 3, and I am very much looking forward to it. 1 billion was the price for 5 seasons and this sum includes 250 million for the rights.
@ We can discuss Tolkien and Rings of Power any time, no problem. Who knows, maybe - despite your comment - you are able to communicate in a civilized manner and perhaps have even something interesting to say.
The elves were never all that good. IF orcs are twisted elves -- twisted against their wills -- the possibility exists that they not only go to the Halls of Mandos, but that they might even be cured there and return as elves. However, they probably are NOT elves. Among other things, their biology seems to be fundamentally different.
Great video and you make a lot of good points, but orcs do have children. Tolkien wrote that they "reproduce in the manner of children of Ilúvatar". And if they have children (considering how useless and fragile babies are) at least orc females must have SOME minimal motherly instincts, otherwise they would leave their children to die, because taking care of a newborn would be such an annoying burden. Eps when their own "society" is so dangerous. Orcs are cruel and violent and their only talent is for war, but (when it comes for their desire to have their own land) they do want to survive. They would rather not go to war and they would rather not die - if they would have that choice. So that they would want to have some place where nobody would attack them on sight isn't that far-fetched. People confuse "humanize" with "sympathetic". The point is that Orcs never were mindless vessels of evil. They are also not "friendly" with one another but the Uruk-hai obvi hate their own less than the others. Orcs from Mordor hate other Orcs from Mordor a little less than the rest of the world too. Also Tolkien himself didn't feel comfortable with answering the question about orc being redeemable or not, because he's not a god and that would be "thinking himself too important". And yet some fans will declare that orcs (who were once elves and still have souls) are just pure evil and could never be and will never ever be anything else.
Displaying hunger and identifying a source of nutrition is not humanizing; every form of animal life on Earth would be humanized by that metric. "If they're not brainlessly evil, they must be humanized" is a wildly inaccurate take.
Exactly, in the scene were they complain about being hungry they literally cannibalise one their own with glee ripping him apart like a pack 9f wild dogs... and the OP thinks thats "humanising" 😂😂😂😂
Hey thanks for the comment! And honestly, yeah, I do. There have been plenty of cannibalistic human cultures throughout history, so that isn’t a non-human thing to do, it’s just an evil thing that humans do. The point I’m trying to make in this video, and that I think Tolkien is trying to make with the Orcs, is that the Orcs show us the worst side of humanity, and what we’re capable of doing when we give ourselves over to evil ideas or evil leaders. And I also don’t think humanized is the same thing as sympathetic or relatable. I would never sympathize with Auschwitz guards, but they were obviously human, and everything they did was well within the realm of human action, because they were humans who acted the way they did. Thats why at the end of the video, I said that the point of the Orcs isn’t to give us sympathetic villains, it’s to show us what we can be at our worst if we aren’t careful
@@FantasyMugi disagree Tolkien specifically says that the orcs are meant to represent pure evil, they aren't individuals or "people" they aren't doing it because they've been treated badly or mislead etc they have no empathy even for their own kind... I get you want to defend rings of power but this argument is just nonsense
@@FantasyMug also how does the fact that there have been humans cannibals make being a cannibal a "humanising trait" ??? Lool youre really reaching dude
If you are referring to Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took, he fought against a band of orc at the Battle of Greenfield where the orc warband had invaded hobbit lands
That’s actually a really awesome question and I don’t know the answer for sure. Pure speculation, I would think there aren’t any other corrupted Hobbits, because the Hobbits branched off from humans after Melkor was gone, and humans in general weren’t really the target of his corruption. It was time with the ring that left Gollum the way he was, so I’m not entirely sure that’s the same thing as the orcs, though still similar in that it was influence from evil. Like I said though, that’s pure speculation on my part
Don't make the expendable mooks into misunderstood people unless you're going to invent _another_ horde of expendable mooks. Otherwise no one is going to get to stab _anyone_ in your epic war fantasy.
"...the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defense of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost." ( J.R.R. Tolkien, HOME, Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed)
The books say that orcs reproduce quickly. Also, when I got to this scene, I didn’t feel like it so much “humanized” the orcs, as much as it showed how they are oppressed and hate it, highlighting the evil of their leaders. So yes, they are evil. But even they are less evil than their tormentors. Similar to how Sauron tells Celebrimbor that he was tortured by Morgoth (even if that was a lie). The hate of their evil leaders corrupts the orcs even more and in return further corrupts the leaders Also, possibly, in the show, Adar’s troop is referred to as his family, his children, and it seems very cult-like. So it’s arguable that they wouldn’t be quite like the orcs we’re used to. That is probably giving the writers too much credit, though.
it's not that if Orc families are lore accurate it's the fact that the makes of this shit show tried to make them sympathetic creatures that deserve none
Hey all, thanks so much for watching! I know I'm a little late on this topic, but I hope this adds something to the discussion nonetheless. I just started this channel a couple months ago, and this is one of my first real video essays, so any tips, advice, criticisms, etc. would be very appreciated! And a subscribe, of course ;) ANyways let me know what you think about the Orc Families, my take in this video, or any other thoughts you have in the comments below, and I'll look forward to reading them all!
"Perfect, ageless elves... the pinacles of beauty, truth and good"
Feanor: allow me to introduce myself
“Everybody’s immortal ‘till they get hit in the face by Gothmog”
super nice vid mate, really good points put really well together
You know not only humans feel feelings yeah?
It's a common trait for every animal.
This whole show was such a mess. They had so much potential to tell a story Tolkien basically already wrote, a literal BILLION DOLLARS per season, and they completely botched it. I hope this show ends after this season
Guarantee the price was inflated, probably a money laundering sceme
Season 1 was good, but had quite some problems with the pacing, season 2 was awesome. They are right now preparing season 3, and I am very much looking forward to it. 1 billion was the price for 5 seasons and this sum includes 250 million for the rights.
@anni.68 troll
@ We can discuss Tolkien and Rings of Power any time, no problem. Who knows, maybe - despite your comment - you are able to communicate in a civilized manner and perhaps have even something interesting to say.
@anni.68 Tolkien had nothing t do with rings of power troll
Normally I'm all for adding new ideas to older works, but this one was a miss...
The elves were never all that good.
IF orcs are twisted elves -- twisted against their wills -- the possibility exists that they not only go to the Halls of Mandos, but that they might even be cured there and return as elves. However, they probably are NOT elves. Among other things, their biology seems to be fundamentally different.
Great video and you make a lot of good points, but orcs do have children. Tolkien wrote that they "reproduce in the manner of children of Ilúvatar".
And if they have children (considering how useless and fragile babies are) at least orc females must have SOME minimal motherly instincts, otherwise they would leave their children to die, because taking care of a newborn would be such an annoying burden. Eps when their own "society" is so dangerous.
Orcs are cruel and violent and their only talent is for war, but (when it comes for their desire to have their own land) they do want to survive. They would rather not go to war and they would rather not die - if they would have that choice. So that they would want to have some place where nobody would attack them on sight isn't that far-fetched.
People confuse "humanize" with "sympathetic". The point is that Orcs never were mindless vessels of evil.
They are also not "friendly" with one another but the Uruk-hai obvi hate their own less than the others. Orcs from Mordor hate other Orcs from Mordor a little less than the rest of the world too.
Also Tolkien himself didn't feel comfortable with answering the question about orc being redeemable or not, because he's not a god and that would be "thinking himself too important".
And yet some fans will declare that orcs (who were once elves and still have souls) are just pure evil and could never be and will never ever be anything else.
VERY nice analysis, all the way through to the end and how we as the human race can see lessons for our own lives within the races of Middle Earth.
Displaying hunger and identifying a source of nutrition is not humanizing; every form of animal life on Earth would be humanized by that metric. "If they're not brainlessly evil, they must be humanized" is a wildly inaccurate take.
Exactly, in the scene were they complain about being hungry they literally cannibalise one their own with glee ripping him apart like a pack 9f wild dogs... and the OP thinks thats "humanising" 😂😂😂😂
Hey thanks for the comment! And honestly, yeah, I do. There have been plenty of cannibalistic human cultures throughout history, so that isn’t a non-human thing to do, it’s just an evil thing that humans do. The point I’m trying to make in this video, and that I think Tolkien is trying to make with the Orcs, is that the Orcs show us the worst side of humanity, and what we’re capable of doing when we give ourselves over to evil ideas or evil leaders. And I also don’t think humanized is the same thing as sympathetic or relatable. I would never sympathize with Auschwitz guards, but they were obviously human, and everything they did was well within the realm of human action, because they were humans who acted the way they did. Thats why at the end of the video, I said that the point of the Orcs isn’t to give us sympathetic villains, it’s to show us what we can be at our worst if we aren’t careful
@@FantasyMugi disagree Tolkien specifically says that the orcs are meant to represent pure evil, they aren't individuals or "people" they aren't doing it because they've been treated badly or mislead etc they have no empathy even for their own kind...
I get you want to defend rings of power but this argument is just nonsense
@@FantasyMug also how does the fact that there have been humans cannibals make being a cannibal a "humanising trait" ???
Lool youre really reaching dude
Was there ever any corrupted hobbits besides gollum? They said Bilbo’s great great grandfather fought in war. Did some turn to evil?
If you are referring to Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took, he fought against a band of orc at the Battle of Greenfield where the orc warband had invaded hobbit lands
That’s actually a really awesome question and I don’t know the answer for sure. Pure speculation, I would think there aren’t any other corrupted Hobbits, because the Hobbits branched off from humans after Melkor was gone, and humans in general weren’t really the target of his corruption. It was time with the ring that left Gollum the way he was, so I’m not entirely sure that’s the same thing as the orcs, though still similar in that it was influence from evil. Like I said though, that’s pure speculation on my part
Don't make the expendable mooks into misunderstood people unless you're going to invent _another_ horde of expendable mooks. Otherwise no one is going to get to stab _anyone_ in your epic war fantasy.
"...the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defense of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost." ( J.R.R. Tolkien, HOME, Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed)
The books say that orcs reproduce quickly.
Also, when I got to this scene, I didn’t feel like it so much “humanized” the orcs, as much as it showed how they are oppressed and hate it, highlighting the evil of their leaders. So yes, they are evil. But even they are less evil than their tormentors. Similar to how Sauron tells Celebrimbor that he was tortured by Morgoth (even if that was a lie). The hate of their evil leaders corrupts the orcs even more and in return further corrupts the leaders
Also, possibly, in the show, Adar’s troop is referred to as his family, his children, and it seems very cult-like. So it’s arguable that they wouldn’t be quite like the orcs we’re used to. That is probably giving the writers too much credit, though.
If you watch and read their interviews you will notice that JD Payne and Patrick McKay know very well what they are doing.
it's not that if Orc families are lore accurate it's the fact that the makes of this shit show tried to make them sympathetic creatures that deserve none