It's A LOT OF WORK to compare two set of speakers and try to describe the differences in sound and your personal preferences . Much appreciated! Thank you!
Nice review Scott! It is difficult to choose a better speaker when they both have their strenghths.. At the end of the day, im sure most would be happy with either. Placement, as you know makes a huge difference in any system! I think it is more important than the speakers themselves, as they can sound extremely different with different possitions.
Indeed, and when trying to get two sets to sound their best at the same time, it was a LOT of moving around. The TZ9 are fairly easy to move, but those CS7 are a hunk of concrete and are a REAL challenge. Got my workout for the week.
I was introduced to Polk SDA speakers about 5 years ago. I fell in love with them. As soon as I heard them, I had to have a set. I bought a pair of 1 C's. I painted them and kept them for a few years. I'd LOVE to have a new pair of the Polk Legend 800 with the SDA pro. 😊
I never really got into having a need to discern a good, better, best classification of speakers and gear. When it comes to speakers and components of this caliber, to my ear, it becomes all about your preferences. I cannot speak to the TZ 9 but what I heard from Pioneer's EX1 (A newer model TAD/Pioneer collaboration) sounded really awesome. Owning the 3.6 which are a step down from the 7's I can say I was very happy with them for many years. Mated with the right amps they gave me many hours of listening pleasure. For me, one of the saddest days within the Audio community was the loss of Jim Thiel and not long after his company going out of business.
We tend to not think of powerhouse speaker brands as "small businesses" because they resonate with us so much. But sadly, there are many brands that faded away once their namesake passed on. Thiel is one of those. We need to keep these stellar units going for as long as possible.
@@sidesup8286 In my 40 years of listening to speakers, they are the ones that find that magical balance between accuracy and musicality. Probably why I’ve owned them for 16 years!
Great review as usual Scott. I love head to head shoot outs. These are a couple of real beauties. I always felt a little bad for the poor Advents as the under dog. LOL
Good one, Scott. I did impedance sweep on my Thiel CS1.5 and Thiel CS3.6.. 1.5s are pretty much between 3.2ohms and 4.2ohms except at resonant frequency touching 8 ohms. With 3.6, it is further lower, between 2.6ohms and 3.2ohms, except at the resonance point. Unlike Magnepans and Infinity, Thiels are lower all around. A modern Purifi Class D with a beefier power supply will drive any Thiel perfectly fine. My mono blocks from Buckeye amps are rated to 2ohms@950watts and have no issues. Even a fully refurbished Yamaha M80 will do the job.
@stereoniche One good thing is that all Thiel speakers act like resistors for an amp, so even a tube amp capable of driving 4ohm loads will not adversely influence the tonality.
@@stereoniche Any Sealed (airtight) speaker will need a lot more power. This is because a woofer that is designed to operated in a sealed speaker.. needs to use Much stronger magnetic forces to overcome the higher air compression forces. If you took the woofers out and weighed them, they would likely weight twice as much as any woofer of the same diameter... from a ported speaker. The magnets will be much larger and heavier on the Sealed speakers.. and the voice coils will also likely be beefier too. The benefits are worth the power draw. More musically accurate bass + Deeper and Thumpier Bass. The higher magnetic field strength + greater power... helps reduce (or completely eliminates) micro-distortions in the music reproduction (especially on complex / detailed pieces.. that have a lot of fast playing.. and or have many layered instruments playing at the same time). As such, you will hear more details, and far more clearly.
I had the same Q some time ago and found it was not. I had to look it up again, but the T in T/S parameters is Albert Neville Thiele of Australia.And the "S" is Richard Small, also of Australia.
Great review! Bought the Thiel 03A with the little active equalizer in early 1980's, Owned for over 20 years. Now own the Thiel CS 2.3's which are beautiful sounding full range. Well built and engineered.
Thiel, for the most part, did not put out any low entry level models as far as I can tell. They certainly had a nice model range, but it seems even their entry models punched above their weight class a good bit.
I heard Thiel 03 speakers demonstrated for me in the 1980s. Years earlier I had sold my Goetz speakers, which were near perfect speakers except for a very slight lack of midbass definition. The other parts of the bass were very well defined, including the low bass. bass.When I heard the 03s I wondered if I should have regretted selling the Goetz. Two unusual things about that demo. They had the channels reversed. Sounds I was used to hearing from the left were on the right now. A connection mistake? An Ingenious sales tactic? I don't know, but I felt it was a very different experience, hearing a very familiar lp I brought in for them to play. The other strange thing was that they were using a moving coil cartridge made by...a company that you wouldn't think ever made a cartridge....JVC. It sounded great as did the Thiels. Thiel did make a bookshelf speaker, unusual for them. But it went back to the 1970s I think. It wasn't inexpensive like most bookshelf speakers back then, as I recall.
Nice video. I appreciate your channel. Do you own any Ohm omnidirectional speakers? Those were great in their day, especially the Huge ones. I don't think that people had the room to appreciate them.... Ohm is still in business. They only make mini-omni's now. - Did I own a pair? Nah. They were just dream speakers for me. Still are.
Unfortunately, I do not. I have run across them several times over the years, but the models I ran across always needed work that could only be done at the factory, so I would pass on them. But I would like to hear a set, glad they are still in business.
All you have to say is TAD on the cheap and ide jump that way. Yes the Theil is a fine looking speaker and has phasing correction. I like the twin woofers in the Pioneer/TAD.
I became a fan of Thiel speakers as they were universally praised by the audiophile community when I was growing up in the 80's. I was fortunate enough that once I was able to start my own audiophile journey, it was with Thiel speakers, first with a mint pair of CS 3.5's with their Electronic Bass Module and replacing those with Jim Thiel's final speaker, the CS 3.7. The one thing that Thiels are known for is their very revealing and resolving nature...everything is presented to the listener and whatever is on the track you're listening to, you will hear (if your electronics are good enough). However, that also tends to be Thiel's biggest issue: they can come across as harsh, sterile and analytical in their presentation. With today's proliferation of digital files and listening, the Thiels made me feel like I was always listening as if I were in a recording studio...good or bad, I heard it all and I found myself listening with a very critical ear. It got fatiguing at the end. Two years ago, I replaced my 3.7's with a new pair of Kef Blade Two's...which I very much consider a "grail" speaker. In my younger years, I thought revealing and resolution was what I wanted from my system, but as I have journied through this hobby, I now feel that musicality and enjoyment of the music and performance are what it's really about. IMHO, speakers are the most crucial and personal choice one makes when building a system. Thanks for posting your comparison...very well done and informative!
Thanks for watching and adding to the conversation on your experience. I wanted to add to your comment that I think our tastes and preferences change over time as we go through that journey called life. As well, there are certainly speakers that are unforgiving and unbearable to listen to if the recordings are not top notch. I will review some of those in the near future which is why, for me, I most often have had 2-3 sets of speakers setup at any one time and I would change the speakers depending on the music preference at the time. That is not reasonable for most, but I happen to have a very understandable wife. :-)
Remember the big Thiel's when they came out. They were expensive. When listening to the smaller ones (at a dealer) I always felt that they were too restricted in their dynamics. Perhaps they needed to be paired with a more powerful amp.
I'm familiar with earlier Thiel models, I always thought their crossovers were too steep (which creates phase error) and the upper frequencies perhaps over-emphasized. Paired with the right amp I suppose the top end would be less biting. As for the (released in 1989) Pioneer TZ9, I wonder why they never bothered with time alignment of the drivers? That wide, flat front panel is bound to affect treble the dispersion and perhaps affect proper off-axis decay.
When you say that, the imaging started at the speaker itself I don’t know that that’s so unusual. I would be curious to know if you had them toed in and if so, how much. As i’m sure you know that can make all the difference in the focus of the image.
That is actually a bit uncommon. Someone else familiar with them also confirmed that was their experience and that was also something I found in the first review.
Hi. This is me again, who asked about Sansui 9010. I am wondering if you can sell any of your components that you want to let go. Please advise. Thanks
And he's not too old either. With all that equipment, it would be near impossible, not to be young at heart. Improving your sound quality is really something to look forward too. I guess adding more & more & more equipment is really something to look forward to also! We all need something that keeps us going, whether it be a Lego collector with 2.5 million Lego blocks, going for 3 million. Or a plastic 2 liter beverage bottle hoarder who plans on getting up to Oregon some day, where they pay 10 cents a bottle. Even though the plastic plasticis thinner, & caves in while you pour.
Hi . I have a bunch of speakers. From small , Rodgers Ls3 5a to Klipsch La Scalas. I have a pair of baby Theils CS1.2 . The little Theils matched with a thumping amp work well . They lack bottom end . To be honest they compare very well with the BBC monitors . Very similar sound.
@@stereoniche Thankyou . The little BBC s are truly amazing. I remember the first time I heard them . I thought I was dreaming. It was quite an experience. ATCs are my pick of the bunch .( modern speaker ,granted)
Thiel has a reputation among some to be bright. I find just as often as not--- an insufficient amp will exacerbate issues like that. Same for bass issues. The high end community has those thinking that a single digit wattage SET amp or low wattage pushpull tube is sufficient for anything. Not the case with thiel. I found that JBL never really made a tweeter I like. I have resto-modded L-20t, L-80T, 4312's and that titanium tweeter just has too much ring. I'm not a fan of Kef ls-50 metal tweeters or Focal.
I know some rave about the JBL titanium tweeters, they must have titanium ears because they are just not for me. So the KEF LS-50 you also find similar? Too bad, I was hoping to hear them one day, but if they resemble the JBL tweeter, then it will not be for me either. I cannot fathom anyone thinking the Thiel is "bright" when compared to other know bright speakers, but again, it is all subjective.
That highly Compressed "Techno", was godawful. As far as Audiophile speakers goes... the best of the best, "Vanish". Meaning... if someone placed a blindfold on you, wouldnt be able to point to where they were in the room. The sound is so Holographic, that its as if the band/instruments/singers... are right in the room with you (seemingly out of thin air, without a source of projection). SO, if the speakers are drawing attention to themselves... they are still on the low end of the audiophile spectrum. I had never experienced this, until getting a pair of "EPI 100v" speakers. The large Advents (I have the large bull nose advents too), were not even within the same Galaxy, as far as comparison goes. You really should track down some from EPI or Genesis Physics (whom bought EPI, and continued their legacy, for quite some time). For such a small sized speaker... and only being a 2-way... you would never imagine these being such amazing performers. Deep, Thumpy bass. Crystal clear highs. A Holographic 3d Soundstage, that is unlike anything else you have ever experienced. Also, I hope you are testing these speakers, at higher volume levels... Because any Sealed speaker, especially speakers with Passive Radiators... dont really come Alive, until you get them to a higher volume level. This is because is takes more power to get their cones moving... especially passives, which are "Weighted", and driven by the woofers energy levels. As far as Ported speakers goes... they can produce pretty strong and deep bass at lower to medium volume levels.. However, at higher volume levels, they tend to get extremely Boomy and Artificial Sounding. Thus.. the opposite of Closed / Sealed speakers.
The Thiels do exactly that, they disappear. You do not "see" them, per se, but the image overlaps their physical location which is unique. And yes, I do play them at various levels to get a sense of performance, sometimes you need to get the "juice flowing", but in general, I play them at modest levels, not concert levels. Holographic imaging is something I have experienced. The Thiels are close to that, but there is a speaker I will review in the near future that is legendary in this regard.
So you mean that people looking at 10 and 15k speakers should be trying to track down some used EPI 100V? EPI in their literature said that they would never use anythong over an 8 inch woofer because of transient concerns. Yet I think they used a bigger one later on in theier elongated pyramid shaped 3.0, which is not a bad speaker; unless you have somethong really heavenly.
@@sidesup8286 The price of a speaker, does not necessarily represent performance. A lot of the costs from Audiophile speakers, is in the "Look" of the cabinet, and the low number hand-built labor costs. And of course... because they know that there are many fools out there, that will Vastly Over-Pay for their speakers. A lot of todays audiophile speakers, use the same exact drivers, made in Taiwan. Some of them are slightly modified. But many are just using mass mfg. drivers, and just making different shaped cabinets. Also, there hasnt really been much advancement in speaker technology. Its very basic stuff... and most of it was figured out (and created) ages ago. Planer drivers, are the latest craze, because they can move very fast (less potential for distortions). However... Planers seem to suffer from a very "Narrow" Sound-Field Image. Meaning.. in order to get the best Stereo sound.. you have to sit exactly between the center of the speakers... AND at the exact sitting height. With the EPI's inverted tweeters, you can almost stand anywhere in the room... and still be getting an amazing 3d holographic stereo image... without any notable "Drop Off" in volume. I believe I had mine about 7 feet apart... and I was able to stand within 1ft right of the left-most speaker... and was still getting a perfect stereo image, without any drop-off. Standing directly in front of one speaker... and the drop off was noticiable... but only by a very small percentage. As far as Height goes... it didnt matter at all. I could sit down, lay down, or stand up... and was still getting a perfect stereo image, with no drop-off, nor any losses in details. In fact, they sound best with placed on the floor + closest to a wall (more bass). If you do hunt them down... just make sure you are getting the later model tweeter version. The original tweeter model is mounted to a fiber-board disc... and is a bit lacking in detail. The newer versions, are mounted to plastic bezel mounts... and have a much greater range. Also, as far as the "Literature" goes... The man used heavier gauge wire on the voice coil windings of the woofers. He said that this automatically filters out high frequencies... without the need for an additional crossover component in the circuit. The theory, is that the less components in the path... the less potentials for micro-distortions. And from hearing these speakers performance levels... I believe he was correct... because I was hearing new things in my music, that I never heard before (such as finally being able to understand exact lyrics from a singer... that I never could understand before that point, on previous speakers + headphones). I will add... that the company was also going up against a lot of various cheaper speaker designs... and it was likely not easy to deal with the general masses of peoples perceptions. For example... if you were shopping for speakers in the 80s, and saw a speaker with a 15" woofer... you likely might buy that speaker, thinking it would produce better bass... over EPI's 8" woofers. The reality is... that those cheaply made 15" woofers were very under-powered... and would easily Blow up if you drove them too hard. Not only that... but they have much weaker magnetics.. so they were not anywhere near as Accurate as EPI's 8" woofers. So, compromises were made in both EPI and later Genesis Physics... where they would put out models with larger woofers, passive radiators (to get more bass boosted performance), and even adding additional drivers into the mix. (especially since you had companies like Sansui and Pioneer.. putting out speakers with like 8 drivers each... and while they LOOKED like they would be good... sounded like utter Poop compared to EPI's simple 2 way speakers) Unfortunately, peoples own ignorance.. is what caused epic speaker companies like EPI, to eventually go out of business.. despite them selling FAR superior speakers.
I was feeling same on sound stage as you described. With regular boxed front firing speakers I really did not hear sound stage opens up over the distance of two speakers. I ended up buying dipole panel speakers. Apogee and Maggie, and now sound stage is over the side wall of the listening room. Not only sound stage is bigger but also singers and instruments playing in the sound stage was created with bigger and more realistic sizes, width, depth,and height wise. It must be effect of dipole and line source nature of panel speakers. It is not as pinpoint imaging as point source speakers, still it is way more realistic. And when I hear live music playing in the concert I really do not hear pinpoint imaging and small scale instruments playing as from the point source speakers anyway.
Do the instruments on the Maggies sound thin, or do they sound like they have real body and presence? One guy said to stay away from Maggies as they have these ghost like images with no substance or body and palpability, even though the images are huge. Live music (acoustic music) does have pinpoint imaging if listened to up close. The further back you listen, the more diffuse diffuse.the localization becomes. Planars are known for lacking focus. Thiels, like almost no other have startling pinpoint focus. Maggies have a lot of good qualities though. The few times I've heard them I really liked the big ones, but wished they did a few things better.
@@sidesup8286 I understand problems he is talking about. That is usually created by lack of woofer panel excursion and a poor quality amp which will not hold the power long enough when music demands. Apogee is much better in that regard. I made a full active dap system with sub on my Maggie 3.6 and that density problem is almost gone. Small panel speakers will have that density problem more and that is why many owners will try sub. But even with sub you will not have sound like dynamic speakers. I saw a new generation of panel speakers and they will have much better excursions because they have magnets on the back and front of mylar. And have heard that solve problems almost entirely. Even with a small density problem, for me there is no going back. I still have boxed dynamic speakers, but when I hear boxed dynamic speakers, I hear no openness or stage like panel speakers and I feel like I am listening to miniature concerts. I just cannot listen for too long.
@@sidesup8286 That is density problem which is caused by lack of panel excursion and amp with not enough current to sustain power when music demands. It is common problem with panel speakers especially with small one, that is why many panel speaker owner try to add sub. Panel speakers has good enough pin point imaging, just not as pin point as point source speakers. Regular speakers create that pin point imaging artificially with tiny drivers which does not create height imaging as accurately as line source speakers. Now with new generation panel speakers with double magnet on front and back, I think no more problem, because more magnetic power with enough excursion. My Apogee Diva has much less problem than Maggie 3.6 because of more magnet and better woof panel and that is why so much heavier. Since I converted Maggie to full active DSP with sub system, every driver gets enough power and control and that fixed most of the density problem. I think even with that small density problem there is no going back. I just can't listen to regular speakers too long because there is no openness and scale or realism of sounds, I always feel like I am listening to small miniature toy concert.
Instruments sounding like they have no body is almost always a tonal problem; at least with regular box speakers. Many bookshelf speakers just have a white and bright sound because their small woofers don't have much bass or warmth. Without enough warmth in the lower midrange, they sound 2D thin, and without body and a 3D sensation. sensation.Panel speakers are often like that Like you are only hearing the front of the instruments, but not the back.Adding a sub will help with that, but I am not sure if 2D thinness, like a cardboard cutout is an inherent characteristic of panel speakers. If you would build an acoustic guitar without the body and the big hole in the middle, the sound would be thin. The whole point of the 8 shape of the guitar's body is to resonate the sound of the strings and make the sound full and warm; and it also amplifies the strings sound to some degree. I have heard Apogee Duettas and liked them and Magnepans also and liked them, but I have never had a planar speaker. Peehaps that will become a future chapter of my life. I think it would be hard for a box speaker to have highs100% as free and open as good planars or electrostatics, but with regular woofers, mids and tweeters, my sound is on the ceiling, even though my speakers are on the floor. "Big" sound is on the recordings, it takes great signal integrity from everything in your system to recreate that "big sound." Most systems foul that aspect, because they are not good enough. Even with my worst recordings, the singers voice sounds like it is plastered on the ceiling. Big beefy transformers seem to always give bigger images and instrument size. I've heard cables which enlarged the sound of instruments by 40 or 50%. .You can also get more realistic instrument size from a better phono cartridge.or listening to reel to reel tapes, which have the largest sound of anything. I've even improved the apparent instrument size a bit by getting my cartridge screws much tighter. All this using box speakers. I have amazing 3D depth, but as the instruments sound further back, their presence goes down. Even though that is probably the more accurate recreation. Some of those instruments that sound further back, were actually more interesting to hear closer up, when my system didn't have as much depth. Good cabinet speakers if teamed with great enough electronics ARE capable of big, open, airy sound and amazing depth and height. But it can have trouble achieving that quality that planar speakers routinely do. But it is possible, but requires that much more signal integrity from source, all the way through power amp.
@@sidesup8286 Tonal problem is the problems for any kind of speakers just matter of how much. I don't have a tonal problem with Apogee with sub. I do have it with Maggie. That's why I have it converted to full active DSP with sub. With DSP, delay, adjustable xover and PEQ I get better tonal quality than any dynamic speakers I had. I did not have this kind of precision of control until I got a custom made Behringher speaker management, which took me 3 months to upgrade with the external liner power supply, low noise analog output stage, more filtration on digital processing, silver internal wiring, power cable and etc. I use tube pre, tube DAC, and tube power amp for ribbon tweeter. And the rest is Tr. This way I get tube warmth that will minimize the dry and thin characters you are talking about. With Apogee Diva they come with passive xover with mid and high adjustment and that is very effective and works nice with b-iamping and active sub.
It's A LOT OF WORK to compare two set of speakers and try to describe the differences in sound and your personal preferences .
Much appreciated! Thank you!
It certainly is a lot of work. Especially when they are large, heavy speakers. Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for this comparison, very well done, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
My pleasure!
Nice review Scott! It is difficult to choose a better speaker when they both have their strenghths.. At the end of the day, im sure most would be happy with either. Placement, as you know makes a huge difference in any system! I think it is more important than the speakers themselves, as they can sound extremely different with different possitions.
Indeed, and when trying to get two sets to sound their best at the same time, it was a LOT of moving around. The TZ9 are fairly easy to move, but those CS7 are a hunk of concrete and are a REAL challenge. Got my workout for the week.
Did I spy a polk sda next to that right pioneer? Polk sda's are some of my faves.
Yes you did! There is a review on them as well.
I heard the SDAs in 1985 or so and still remember being amazed
I was introduced to Polk SDA speakers about 5 years ago. I fell in love with them. As soon as I heard them, I had to have a set. I bought a pair of 1 C's. I painted them and kept them for a few years. I'd LOVE to have a new pair of the Polk Legend 800 with the SDA pro. 😊
I never really got into having a need to discern a good, better, best classification of speakers and gear. When it comes to speakers and components of this caliber, to my ear, it becomes all about your preferences. I cannot speak to the TZ 9 but what I heard from Pioneer's EX1 (A newer model TAD/Pioneer collaboration) sounded really awesome. Owning the 3.6 which are a step down from the 7's I can say I was very happy with them for many years. Mated with the right amps they gave me many hours of listening pleasure. For me, one of the saddest days within the Audio community was the loss of Jim Thiel and not long after his company going out of business.
We tend to not think of powerhouse speaker brands as "small businesses" because they resonate with us so much. But sadly, there are many brands that faded away once their namesake passed on. Thiel is one of those. We need to keep these stellar units going for as long as possible.
Add Peter Snell to that list. He tested and tuned every speaker to match its twin in the pair. Not very efficient, but it made for very loyal owners
@@billd9667 Indeed. I have some Snell A III to review in the near future. Hoping to replace a set of E III that I had to sell years ago due to a move.
Non resonant structure is so important for clarity. My 215 pound Egglestonworks Andra 2 reminds me of that!
I have not yet seen that model. They certainly look impressive. Thanks for sharing!
The Egglestons are some people favorite speaker for piano reproduction. I just love them.
@@sidesup8286 In my 40 years of listening to speakers, they are the ones that find that magical balance between accuracy and musicality. Probably why I’ve owned them for 16 years!
Great review as usual Scott. I love head to head shoot outs. These are a couple of real beauties. I always felt a little bad for the poor Advents as the under dog. LOL
LOL, yes, the poor Advents tried their best, but eventually were in weight classes too much.
Good one, Scott. I did impedance sweep on my Thiel CS1.5 and Thiel CS3.6.. 1.5s are pretty much between 3.2ohms and 4.2ohms except at resonant frequency touching 8 ohms. With 3.6, it is further lower, between 2.6ohms and 3.2ohms, except at the resonance point. Unlike Magnepans and Infinity, Thiels are lower all around. A modern Purifi Class D with a beefier power supply will drive any Thiel perfectly fine. My mono blocks from Buckeye amps are rated to 2ohms@950watts and have no issues. Even a fully refurbished Yamaha M80 will do the job.
Thanks for the insight. They certainly DO need a very good amp.
@stereoniche One good thing is that all Thiel speakers act like resistors for an amp, so even a tube amp capable of driving 4ohm loads will not adversely influence the tonality.
@@stereoniche Any Sealed (airtight) speaker will need a lot more power.
This is because a woofer that is designed to operated in a sealed speaker.. needs to use Much stronger magnetic forces to overcome the higher air compression forces. If you took the woofers out and weighed them, they would likely weight twice as much as any woofer of the same diameter... from a ported speaker. The magnets will be much larger and heavier on the Sealed speakers.. and the voice coils will also likely be beefier too.
The benefits are worth the power draw. More musically accurate bass + Deeper and Thumpier Bass. The higher magnetic field strength + greater power... helps reduce (or completely eliminates) micro-distortions in the music reproduction (especially on complex / detailed pieces.. that have a lot of fast playing.. and or have many layered instruments playing at the same time). As such, you will hear more details, and far more clearly.
Wondering if this is the same Thiel as in the "Small and Thiel that figured out the math for enclosure volumes"?
I had the same Q some time ago and found it was not. I had to look it up again, but the T in T/S parameters is Albert Neville Thiele of Australia.And the "S" is Richard Small, also of Australia.
Great review! Bought the Thiel 03A with the little active equalizer in early 1980's, Owned for over 20 years. Now own the Thiel CS 2.3's which are beautiful sounding full range. Well built and engineered.
Thiel, for the most part, did not put out any low entry level models as far as I can tell. They certainly had a nice model range, but it seems even their entry models punched above their weight class a good bit.
I heard Thiel 03 speakers demonstrated for me in the 1980s. Years earlier I had sold my Goetz speakers, which were near perfect speakers except for a very slight lack of midbass definition. The other parts of the bass were very well defined, including the low bass. bass.When I heard the 03s I wondered if I should have regretted selling the Goetz. Two unusual things about that demo. They had the channels reversed. Sounds I was used to hearing from the left were on the right now. A connection mistake? An Ingenious sales tactic? I don't know, but I felt it was a very different experience, hearing a very familiar lp I brought in for them to play. The other strange thing was that they were using a moving coil cartridge made by...a company that you wouldn't think ever made a cartridge....JVC. It sounded great as did the Thiels.
Thiel did make a bookshelf speaker, unusual for them. But it went back to the 1970s I think. It wasn't inexpensive like most bookshelf speakers back then, as I recall.
I had the CSS7. I miss them.
They are certainly a special speaker, but understandable if they can no longer be accommodated. They are quite large.
Nice video. I appreciate your channel.
Do you own any Ohm omnidirectional speakers? Those were great in their day, especially the Huge ones. I don't think that people had the room to appreciate them.... Ohm is still in business. They only make mini-omni's now.
- Did I own a pair? Nah. They were just dream speakers for me. Still are.
Unfortunately, I do not. I have run across them several times over the years, but the models I ran across always needed work that could only be done at the factory, so I would pass on them. But I would like to hear a set, glad they are still in business.
All you have to say is TAD on the cheap and ide jump that way. Yes the Theil is a fine looking speaker and has phasing correction. I like the twin woofers in the Pioneer/TAD.
That is certainly one way to think about them, TAD on the cheap. :-)
I became a fan of Thiel speakers as they were universally praised by the audiophile community when I was growing up in the 80's. I was fortunate enough that once I was able to start my own audiophile journey, it was with Thiel speakers, first with a mint pair of CS 3.5's with their Electronic Bass Module and replacing those with Jim Thiel's final speaker, the CS 3.7. The one thing that Thiels are known for is their very revealing and resolving nature...everything is presented to the listener and whatever is on the track you're listening to, you will hear (if your electronics are good enough). However, that also tends to be Thiel's biggest issue: they can come across as harsh, sterile and analytical in their presentation. With today's proliferation of digital files and listening, the Thiels made me feel like I was always listening as if I were in a recording studio...good or bad, I heard it all and I found myself listening with a very critical ear. It got fatiguing at the end. Two years ago, I replaced my 3.7's with a new pair of Kef Blade Two's...which I very much consider a "grail" speaker. In my younger years, I thought revealing and resolution was what I wanted from my system, but as I have journied through this hobby, I now feel that musicality and enjoyment of the music and performance are what it's really about. IMHO, speakers are the most crucial and personal choice one makes when building a system. Thanks for posting your comparison...very well done and informative!
Thanks for watching and adding to the conversation on your experience. I wanted to add to your comment that I think our tastes and preferences change over time as we go through that journey called life. As well, there are certainly speakers that are unforgiving and unbearable to listen to if the recordings are not top notch. I will review some of those in the near future which is why, for me, I most often have had 2-3 sets of speakers setup at any one time and I would change the speakers depending on the music preference at the time. That is not reasonable for most, but I happen to have a very understandable wife. :-)
Remember the big Thiel's when they came out. They were expensive. When listening to the smaller ones (at a dealer) I always felt that they were too restricted in their dynamics. Perhaps they needed to be paired with a more powerful amp.
Maybe so. Unfortunately, I do not have any of the smaller models to compare. At least not yet. :-)
I'm familiar with earlier Thiel models, I always thought their crossovers were too steep (which creates phase error) and the upper frequencies perhaps over-emphasized.
Paired with the right amp I suppose the top end would be less biting. As for the (released in 1989) Pioneer TZ9, I wonder why they never bothered with time alignment of the drivers? That wide, flat front panel is bound to affect treble the dispersion and perhaps affect proper off-axis decay.
I assume Pioneer was working within some budget constraints. Maybe they spent most of it on the development of the drivers? We may never know.
When you say that, the imaging started at the speaker itself I don’t know that that’s so unusual. I would be curious to know if you had them toed in and if so, how much. As i’m sure you know that can make all the difference in the focus of the image.
That is actually a bit uncommon. Someone else familiar with them also confirmed that was their experience and that was also something I found in the first review.
Very nice! I Imagine having 2 sets F&R to open up the sound stage and imaging, twice as nice!😊
Maybe one day! :-)
Hi. This is me again, who asked about Sansui 9010.
I am wondering if you can sell any of your components that you want to let go. Please advise. Thanks
For any inquiries, email: stereoniche@gmail.com
It was Jim Theil who designed the speakers.
Yes, I meant to go back and add a comment to that earlier review mistake. But to be clear, it is Jim Thiel, not Theil.
@@stereoniche Or Peter Thiel, as you said.
The Thiel is not sealed. It uses a Passive Radiator to tune the box instead of a port.
Correct!
Thanks for the clarification.
Yeah agreed . I’m not sure about this Stereo Niche guy .
@@vassmarc1 I'm not sure about him either, but he is such a cool guy! 🙂
And he's not too old either. With all that equipment, it would be near impossible, not to be young at heart.
Improving your sound quality is really something to look forward too. I guess adding more & more & more equipment is really something to look forward to also! We all need something that keeps us going, whether it be a Lego collector with 2.5 million Lego blocks, going for 3 million. Or a plastic 2 liter beverage bottle hoarder who plans on getting up to Oregon some day, where they pay 10 cents a bottle. Even though the plastic plasticis thinner, & caves in while you pour.
Hi . I have a bunch of speakers. From small , Rodgers Ls3 5a to Klipsch La Scalas. I have a pair of baby Theils CS1.2 . The little Theils matched with a thumping amp work well . They lack bottom end . To be honest they compare very well with the BBC monitors . Very similar sound.
You have some nice speakers. I am still trying to find some Rodgers to add to my collection.
@@stereoniche
Thankyou .
The little BBC s are truly amazing. I remember the first time I heard them . I thought I was dreaming. It was quite an experience. ATCs are my pick of the bunch .( modern speaker ,granted)
Thiel has a reputation among some to be bright. I find just as often as not--- an insufficient amp will exacerbate issues like that. Same for bass issues. The high end community has those thinking that a single digit wattage SET amp or low wattage pushpull tube is sufficient for anything. Not the case with thiel.
I found that JBL never really made a tweeter I like. I have resto-modded L-20t, L-80T, 4312's and that titanium tweeter just has too much ring. I'm not a fan of Kef ls-50 metal tweeters or Focal.
I know some rave about the JBL titanium tweeters, they must have titanium ears because they are just not for me. So the KEF LS-50 you also find similar? Too bad, I was hoping to hear them one day, but if they resemble the JBL tweeter, then it will not be for me either. I cannot fathom anyone thinking the Thiel is "bright" when compared to other know bright speakers, but again, it is all subjective.
@@stereoniche the JBL titanium tweeter was bright and hard with over ring.
The KEF is better, but still very metallic and not natural.
What type material is the brick wall in the listening room?
It is a wallpaper.
Thanks
Thx; the Thiels are 2x the price of the Pioneers…. Easy choice for most buyers with speakers that both sound fairly good
I think most would find the original MSRP a data point, but not the deciding factor.
Excellent...
Thank you!
I’m not sure why you would compare these two speakers . The Theils are technically way ahead of the Pioneers.
LOL, because I can.
That highly Compressed "Techno", was godawful.
As far as Audiophile speakers goes... the best of the best, "Vanish". Meaning... if someone placed a blindfold on you, wouldnt be able to point to where they were in the room. The sound is so Holographic, that its as if the band/instruments/singers... are right in the room with you (seemingly out of thin air, without a source of projection). SO, if the speakers are drawing attention to themselves... they are still on the low end of the audiophile spectrum.
I had never experienced this, until getting a pair of "EPI 100v" speakers. The large Advents (I have the large bull nose advents too), were not even within the same Galaxy, as far as comparison goes. You really should track down some from EPI or Genesis Physics (whom bought EPI, and continued their legacy, for quite some time). For such a small sized speaker... and only being a 2-way... you would never imagine these being such amazing performers. Deep, Thumpy bass. Crystal clear highs. A Holographic 3d Soundstage, that is unlike anything else you have ever experienced.
Also, I hope you are testing these speakers, at higher volume levels... Because any Sealed speaker, especially speakers with Passive Radiators... dont really come Alive, until you get them to a higher volume level. This is because is takes more power to get their cones moving... especially passives, which are "Weighted", and driven by the woofers energy levels.
As far as Ported speakers goes... they can produce pretty strong and deep bass at lower to medium volume levels.. However, at higher volume levels, they tend to get extremely Boomy and Artificial Sounding. Thus.. the opposite of Closed / Sealed speakers.
The Thiels do exactly that, they disappear. You do not "see" them, per se, but the image overlaps their physical location which is unique. And yes, I do play them at various levels to get a sense of performance, sometimes you need to get the "juice flowing", but in general, I play them at modest levels, not concert levels.
Holographic imaging is something I have experienced. The Thiels are close to that, but there is a speaker I will review in the near future that is legendary in this regard.
So you mean that people looking at 10 and 15k speakers should be trying to track down some used EPI 100V?
EPI in their literature said that they would never use anythong over an 8 inch woofer because of transient concerns. Yet I think they used a bigger one later on in theier elongated pyramid shaped 3.0, which is not a bad speaker; unless you have somethong really heavenly.
@@sidesup8286 The price of a speaker, does not necessarily represent performance.
A lot of the costs from Audiophile speakers, is in the "Look" of the cabinet, and the low number hand-built labor costs. And of course... because they know that there are many fools out there, that will Vastly Over-Pay for their speakers.
A lot of todays audiophile speakers, use the same exact drivers, made in Taiwan. Some of them are slightly modified. But many are just using mass mfg. drivers, and just making different shaped cabinets.
Also, there hasnt really been much advancement in speaker technology. Its very basic stuff... and most of it was figured out (and created) ages ago.
Planer drivers, are the latest craze, because they can move very fast (less potential for distortions). However... Planers seem to suffer from a very "Narrow" Sound-Field Image. Meaning.. in order to get the best Stereo sound.. you have to sit exactly between the center of the speakers... AND at the exact sitting height.
With the EPI's inverted tweeters, you can almost stand anywhere in the room... and still be getting an amazing 3d holographic stereo image... without any notable "Drop Off" in volume.
I believe I had mine about 7 feet apart... and I was able to stand within 1ft right of the left-most speaker... and was still getting a perfect stereo image, without any drop-off. Standing directly in front of one speaker... and the drop off was noticiable... but only by a very small percentage. As far as Height goes... it didnt matter at all. I could sit down, lay down, or stand up... and was still getting a perfect stereo image, with no drop-off, nor any losses in details. In fact, they sound best with placed on the floor + closest to a wall (more bass).
If you do hunt them down... just make sure you are getting the later model tweeter version. The original tweeter model is mounted to a fiber-board disc... and is a bit lacking in detail. The newer versions, are mounted to plastic bezel mounts... and have a much greater range.
Also, as far as the "Literature" goes... The man used heavier gauge wire on the voice coil windings of the woofers. He said that this automatically filters out high frequencies... without the need for an additional crossover component in the circuit. The theory, is that the less components in the path... the less potentials for micro-distortions. And from hearing these speakers performance levels... I believe he was correct... because I was hearing new things in my music, that I never heard before (such as finally being able to understand exact lyrics from a singer... that I never could understand before that point, on previous speakers + headphones).
I will add... that the company was also going up against a lot of various cheaper speaker designs... and it was likely not easy to deal with the general masses of peoples perceptions. For example... if you were shopping for speakers in the 80s, and saw a speaker with a 15" woofer... you likely might buy that speaker, thinking it would produce better bass... over EPI's 8" woofers. The reality is... that those cheaply made 15" woofers were very under-powered... and would easily Blow up if you drove them too hard. Not only that... but they have much weaker magnetics.. so they were not anywhere near as Accurate as EPI's 8" woofers.
So, compromises were made in both EPI and later Genesis Physics... where they would put out models with larger woofers, passive radiators (to get more bass boosted performance), and even adding additional drivers into the mix. (especially since you had companies like Sansui and Pioneer.. putting out speakers with like 8 drivers each... and while they LOOKED like they would be good... sounded like utter Poop compared to EPI's simple 2 way speakers)
Unfortunately, peoples own ignorance.. is what caused epic speaker companies like EPI, to eventually go out of business.. despite them selling FAR superior speakers.
TLDW... Thiel...
YMMV.... Thanks for clicking.
I was feeling same on sound stage as you described. With regular boxed front firing speakers I really did not hear sound stage opens up over the distance of two speakers. I ended up buying dipole panel speakers. Apogee and Maggie, and now sound stage is over the side wall of the listening room. Not only sound stage is bigger but also singers and instruments playing in the sound stage was created with bigger and more realistic sizes, width, depth,and height wise. It must be effect of dipole and line source nature of panel speakers. It is not as pinpoint imaging as point source speakers, still it is way more realistic. And when I hear live music playing in the concert I really do not hear pinpoint imaging and small scale instruments playing as from the point source speakers anyway.
Do the instruments on the Maggies sound thin, or do they sound like they have real body and presence? One guy said to stay away from Maggies as they have these ghost like images with no substance or body and palpability, even though the images are huge. Live music (acoustic music) does have pinpoint imaging if listened to up close. The further back you listen, the more diffuse diffuse.the localization becomes. Planars are known for lacking focus. Thiels, like almost no other have startling pinpoint focus. Maggies have a lot of good qualities though. The few times I've heard them I really liked the big ones, but wished they did a few things better.
@@sidesup8286 I understand problems he is talking about. That is usually created by lack of woofer panel excursion and a poor quality amp which will not hold the power long enough when music demands. Apogee is much better in that regard. I made a full active dap system with sub on my Maggie 3.6 and that density problem is almost gone. Small panel speakers will have that density problem more and that is why many owners will try sub. But even with sub you will not have sound like dynamic speakers. I saw a new generation of panel speakers and they will have much better excursions because they have magnets on the back and front of mylar. And have heard that solve problems almost entirely. Even with a small density problem, for me there is no going back. I still have boxed dynamic speakers, but when I hear boxed dynamic speakers, I hear no openness or stage like panel speakers and I feel like I am listening to miniature concerts. I just cannot listen for too long.
@@sidesup8286 That is density problem which is caused by lack of panel excursion and amp with not enough current to sustain power when music demands. It is common problem with panel speakers especially with small one, that is why many panel speaker owner try to add sub. Panel speakers has good enough pin point imaging, just not as pin point as point source speakers. Regular speakers create that pin point imaging artificially with tiny drivers which does not create height imaging as accurately as line source speakers. Now with new generation panel speakers with double magnet on front and back, I think no more problem, because more magnetic power with enough excursion. My Apogee Diva has much less problem than Maggie 3.6 because of more magnet and better woof panel and that is why so much heavier. Since I converted Maggie to full active DSP with sub system, every driver gets enough power and control and that fixed most of the density problem. I think even with that small density problem there is no going back. I just can't listen to regular speakers too long because there is no openness and scale or realism of sounds, I always feel like I am listening to small miniature toy concert.
Instruments sounding like they have no body is almost always a tonal problem; at least with regular box speakers. Many bookshelf speakers just have a white and bright sound because their small woofers don't have much bass or warmth. Without enough warmth in the lower midrange, they sound 2D thin, and without body and a 3D sensation. sensation.Panel speakers are often like that Like you are only hearing the front of the instruments, but not the back.Adding a sub will help with that, but I am not sure if 2D thinness, like a cardboard cutout is an inherent characteristic of panel speakers. If you would build an acoustic guitar without the body and the big hole in the middle, the sound would be thin. The whole point of the 8 shape of the guitar's body is to resonate the sound of the strings and make the sound full and warm; and it also amplifies the strings sound to some degree.
I have heard Apogee Duettas and liked them and Magnepans also and liked them, but I have never had a planar speaker. Peehaps that will become a future chapter of my life. I think it would be hard for a box speaker to have highs100% as free and open as good planars or electrostatics, but with regular woofers, mids and tweeters, my sound is on the ceiling, even though my speakers are on the floor. "Big" sound is on the recordings, it takes great signal integrity from everything in your system to recreate that "big sound." Most systems foul that aspect, because they are not good enough. Even with my worst recordings, the singers voice sounds like it is plastered on the ceiling. Big beefy transformers seem to always give bigger images and instrument size. I've heard cables which enlarged the sound of instruments by 40 or 50%. .You can also get more realistic instrument size from a better phono cartridge.or listening to reel to reel tapes, which have the largest sound of anything. I've even improved the apparent instrument size a bit by getting my cartridge screws much tighter. All this using box speakers. I have amazing 3D depth, but as the instruments sound further back, their presence goes down. Even though that is probably the more accurate recreation. Some of those instruments that sound further back, were actually more interesting to hear closer up, when my system didn't have as much depth.
Good cabinet speakers if teamed with great enough electronics ARE capable of big, open, airy sound and amazing depth and height. But it can have trouble achieving that quality that planar speakers routinely do. But it is possible, but requires that much more signal integrity from source, all the way through power amp.
@@sidesup8286 Tonal problem is the problems for any kind of speakers just matter of how much. I don't have a tonal problem with Apogee with sub. I do have it with Maggie. That's why I have it converted to full active DSP with sub. With DSP, delay, adjustable xover and PEQ I get better tonal quality than any dynamic speakers I had. I did not have this kind of precision of control until I got a custom made Behringher speaker management, which took me 3 months to upgrade with the external liner power supply, low noise analog output stage, more filtration on digital processing, silver internal wiring, power cable and etc. I use tube pre, tube DAC, and tube power amp for ribbon tweeter. And the rest is Tr. This way I get tube warmth that will minimize the dry and thin characters you are talking about. With Apogee Diva they come with passive xover with mid and high adjustment and that is very effective and works nice with b-iamping and active sub.