I count myself so very grateful to have been in women's group that trashed you regularly, it made me go listen for myself and I must say that I find your ministry delightful, centered and on point! Needless to say, I don't have much in common with most of them anymore and I thank God for ministries that draw distinct lines like you all do! Glory to God alone! Thank you from the bottom of my heart!
Wow!! What a refreshing reply! Thanks for sharing. Isn't it amazing what a little research and truth can do for a person? I wish the rest of the world would follow your lead. God bless
I had to chuckle when I started listening to this, for I was sitting in my recliner stitching on a quilt. Thank you for putting into words what I have believed for many years. The women’s ministry I was once a part of consisted of tea parties, fashion shows, tables scape “competitions “ and guests speakers whose testimonies often time included some type of “church hurt” that they had overcome. It felt like a social club with a little bit of Jesus thrown in. I never liked it but felt pressure to participate. My grandmother, on the other hand, served Christ and his church by preparing food for families in crisis or babysitting their children. She taught Sunday School to 4&5 year-olds for 35 years. She loved and served her family and kept her home. She was fond of her sisters in Christ but didn’t feel the need to “do life” with them. I am glad I had her example to follow.
Fortunately while my wife is an extremely strong willed woman, she should agree with most of this. The more she understands the character of God and the word the more we see that this is God's way and it's been corrupted on this earth
@@jscottfischer some of the best soldiers I have known were strong-willed pig headed men however they had to also temper that with the ability to submit to right Authority
@@jscottfischer I’m definitely a bold personality type myself, but I think God made us exactly that way for Him. Who better equipped to have discussions about bad women’s ministry, to a bunch of cackling hens bent on emotionality, then an educated and bold woman?! Of course I mean setting aside male elders, because often they are afraid to bring the hammer down on their own wife’s group. But the female that knows Gods character, and commandments for her well, and isn’t afraid to speak that truth… really is a wrench in the lady group wheel. She just needs to be empowered by the backing of men sending her, because those women will turn around and go stir the pot against her. But if men and elders are in agreement on what’s Biblical, and she’s just a messenger, then she will have safety in that covering. And that’s what the bold woman, who’s willing to work for the church, needs. She’s needs backing, as still the weaker vessel.
Amen. Women need more men to stand up and say this. We need protection.A woman's ministry and women's ministries are two different things. Cleaning house &cooking for my sweet family is ministry, and a beautiful one that I don't regret ❤️
I've mentioned this problem in each church I've attended and you are the first pastor I have heard address it. 😳 Many women's ministries tear the church down from the inside out.
Oh my gosh! This is absolutely so tru! The few times I joined in on women’s ministry sessions, I was disturbed by what I heard & definitely NOT encouraged by the word of God! I chose to work with the kids ministry & speak truth into the next generation & I’m so thankful I did!
The truth is, women's ministries, such as those you described, are likely indicative of the greater problem of anemic knowledge of and adherence to God's Word. I recently had a protracted discussion with my octogenarian mother, who is otherwise terrifically lucid, but on the matter of the Old Testament, demonstrated a disturbingly contemporary view that it did not apply to Christians. Even after asking the obvious question of from what Bible did Jesus teach, she appeared unshaken in her view. This also is just another symptom of the greater malaise. The Andy Stanleys out there appear to have been working overtime and have insinuated themselves into a great many churches. Vigelence is useful. But, resolve is critical. Our church leaders must stand strong on God's Word and react swiftly and surely to nip these issues in the bud. And, this challenge cannot be met by sermons that attempt to mine esoteric meanings from single verses of Scripture in a superfluous reenactment of a seminary theology course. No, pastors must take it upon themselves to point out, extol, and reinforce the overarching Biblical principles at stake in the face of the onslaught of liberalism assaulting every member of the congregation every moment of every day. ...just one guy's rambling musings.
In my own observance, the whole “OT doesn’t apply to Christians today” thing, comes from the Word of Faith-ers. And their theology has seeped into the modern pop culture version of Christianity. So anyone following that blindly…. Will have some WoF garbage mixed in. Maybe you knowing the origin theology she’s gotten it from, will help you to be better equipped to dismantle it? 🙏🏽♥️
@@jaquirox6579 You would be well within the ballpark with your observation. Far too much of her personal theology appears to have stemmed from televangelists and their all too well known peculiarities (i.e., heresies). But subsequent good preaching has caused her to abandon some of the more flamboyant extremes (e.g., attack helicopters pictured in Revelation). So I am hopeful. Many blessings. Maranatha!
@@jackuber7358 Have u considered trying to share some of the greats content with her? Specifically the ones that rebuke the tc evangelist claims? Some of them are pretty strongly entertaining along with their truth.
@@jackuber7358 If it were me, I would think about the best faithful teachers I know on here, and then think about what sermons/teachings I recall that were massively impactful, but also had that entertainment factor that just captivated you. And send her something like that. Bait the carnal side with the entertainment part, but it’s a bait and switch because it’s a sound teacher that will drop some heavy truth bombs. I’m thinking a few of John Macs, and a ton of Paul Washer, those videos that just left you feeling like “holy crap I’m such a horrible sinner!” and you just feel so much more immensely aware of the Grace that God has given us, and thankful for it! A sermon or video like that. That just hits you in the guts with the stark reality of our place with God. But still has that heathen entertainment attractor. Lol! That’s what I would try for, and just let God go to work with convicting. And of course I say all this, just trying to offer ideas. I hope my 2 cents was helpful. But if not, thank you for graciously humoring me. 😂♥️🙏🏽
Spot on, again! Now don’t go getting a big head about yourself. I don’t agree with everything you say-maybe 97.8%-but I’m a woman so who cares, am I right? 😂 But seriously...thank you, Pastor Wilson, for putting things so plainly and hilariously at the same time. It always makes my day.
I am so late to this party in several ways. But the first one is that I just found you today--7 months after it was posted. I am confused a little though. So are you saying women should not get together for Bible study unless a male pastor is the one teaching it? Or that women should not get together for study/prayer at all alone? They are to gather to do service for others but the rest is as a group under the leadership of the pastors (male). I can see your point big time if that is the case. It is just hard to find those pastors that are willing to do that since they are busy in many other ways. It is hard to find a pastor that is not watered down and well trained these days too. My son is in seminary and is shocked by what is being taught there. But that is where you go if you want the piece of paper to say you have qualifications to teach in a seminary once you graduate. I am at a point where I am trying to navigate what is familiar from all my life to what is actually the truth in the churches. Tough to figure out but oh so needed.
There shouldn’t be any small group that isn’t overseen by an elder. Aka male elder. I think he was giving the caveat that women could gather without the elder, if they were simply doing outward service for the community.
I'm a young Christian and had the desire to pursue biblical counseling. Is this a wrong desire to have? I am slightly confused. My pastor and elder has encouraged me to do so. I've even considered chaplaincy. I confess, I'm really not sure where God is leading me and would appreciate to hear more on this subject.
Honestly, Zandi, as often as I listen/read Doug this was actually pretty confusing. He needs to lay the groundwork for this issue since many of us havent heard it from him. I do think the role of biblical counselor at a church is reserved for the pastor which, Biblically speaking, should be a man. All believers have direction and material from Scripture on discipling other believers but as far as counseling goes in a church it should be done by a pastor.
Counseling can often be self-centered, ineffective and promote a consumer mentality that is detrimental to community and accountability. Christian or not. I think this is why so many church staff burn out. We grow a flock of selfish needy sheep. Counselors can't solve this problem. War commanders and leaders can. Maybe that's his point?
So pleased to hear that God has worked in you a care for people, Zandi. I cannot see a biblical argument that all counsellors should be pastors. May I suggest you get in touch with CCEF (www.ccef.org/) - the most theologically sound place to train that I know of - and also read up on resources they may have that are geared toward this sort of question? CCEF is where the big theologicslly sound Christian counsellors like Powlison, Welch etc. have been. And in terms of the question of entering vocational gospel ministry, I found this publication helpful: mts.com.au/for-apprentices/resources/all-for-the-kingdom/ It's from the Ministry Training Scheme, which is connected to the Sydney Anglican church, which is theologically solid and reformed.
Also, if you are in Australia, perhaps doing a Ministry Training Scheme might be worth considering, as a good way to further discern whether vocational gospel ministry is for you, and where you might best be suited? Gives you practical and theological training and lets you try out different areas of ministry. If you can't do that at your home church, there are churches that take outside applications. I've struggled with the question of entering vocational gospel ministry so I know a little bit about how confusing things can feel.
Canon Press / pastor Doug, incoming honest question... I am candidating in churches, Baptist, and have these similar thoughts for a while now. I now really have to be specific now that I may be not only a member of a new church, but also shepherding. Can you please lay out the argument for or against a woman as music director? (Leading in song, maybe reading scriptures etc) I know 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14, but what did those mean to Paul then and the churches? Thank you!!
I know you asked this a year ago. But I’m going to just toss out my 2 cents. Everything that happens on Sunday, is leading the church in something. The music and singing, is leading the congregation in worshipping God. And the Bible simply says that women aren’t to be in any authority over men in the church. If I get to lead the praise music, I’m leading every man in that room, including the pastors, in how to worship God. And in God’s house, all those men are following my instruction. I’m not an expert on this or anything, but it just seems obvious that a woman shouldn’t hold that lead position. At minimum.
As long as she does not have an M Div and is related to Doug Wilson or a CC elder she can “minister to women” with a podcast, authoring a book, conference lecture. But don’t you dare call it the women’s ministry!!
I'm curious how Titus 2:3-5 fits into this line of reasoning. How does this passage define the roles of women in the church along this line of reasoning more clearly?
The novel has so infected the Church, why not? But of course the paradox rises up to devour. The insistence on “exercising my gifts” eventually jackhammers the ground beneath.
Good on ya! I pray women will wake up and stop chasing honor (worldly) and let the Lord bestow it instead. Sexual degradation started in the church and it is the church that will be judged. 1 Peter 4:17
Good job , Thank You God says, “Let your women keep silent I. The church,,,, they are not permitted to speak, but Are commanded to be u dear obedience as also sayeth the Law “. Kinda plain !
The fact that he advocates a civil conversation about this after suggesting flogging is unbelievable to me. It's amazing how blind he is to his own irony.
Even women teaching on RUclips, who teach the Word correctly, need to go. They think because the ‘60s brought Feminism that, well, it’s okay. Wrong. No woman should be over any other man, Biblically. I suppose they could preface their vlogs with a warning: for women only.
Pastor Wilson, You are a brave and noble soul. FYI: I hear the best choice during a bear attack is to play dead.....maybe this will work with Jezebels too? Hey, when you see Jesus, would you mind asking our Lord to put President Trump back in the White House please? Thanks old buddy. Oh, and thank you very much for helping me rapture, the rapture. That nonsense was poison. God bless
I count myself so very grateful to have been in women's group that trashed you regularly, it made me go listen for myself and I must say that I find your ministry delightful, centered and on point! Needless to say, I don't have much in common with most of them anymore and I thank God for ministries that draw distinct lines like you all do! Glory to God alone! Thank you from the bottom of my heart!
Wow!! What a refreshing reply! Thanks for sharing. Isn't it amazing what a little research and truth can do for a person? I wish the rest of the world would follow your lead. God bless
@@michaelnapper4565 God bless you as well, thank you for your comment!
I had to chuckle when I started listening to this, for I was sitting in my recliner stitching on a quilt. Thank you for putting into words what I have believed for many years. The women’s ministry I was once a part of consisted of tea parties, fashion shows, tables scape “competitions “ and guests speakers whose testimonies often time included some type of “church hurt” that they had overcome. It felt like a social club with a little bit of Jesus thrown in. I never liked it but felt pressure to participate.
My grandmother, on the other hand, served Christ and his church by preparing food for families in crisis or babysitting their children. She taught Sunday School to 4&5 year-olds for 35 years. She loved and served her family and kept her home. She was fond of her sisters in Christ but didn’t feel the need to “do life” with them. I am glad I had her example to follow.
Sounds like my beloved grandmother. Her memory, as well as her example in life has richly blessed me. And, oh yes, she was a consummate quilter.
As a man it scares me that this conversation would probably be a problem not only in my church but in my own house.
Fortunately while my wife is an extremely strong willed woman, she should agree with most of this. The more she understands the character of God and the word the more we see that this is God's way and it's been corrupted on this earth
@@jscottfischer some of the best soldiers I have known were strong-willed pig headed men however they had to also temper that with the ability to submit to right Authority
Did you ever decide to bring it up? In house, or in church?
@@jscottfischer I’m definitely a bold personality type myself, but I think God made us exactly that way for Him. Who better equipped to have discussions about bad women’s ministry, to a bunch of cackling hens bent on emotionality, then an educated and bold woman?! Of course I mean setting aside male elders, because often they are afraid to bring the hammer down on their own wife’s group. But the female that knows Gods character, and commandments for her well, and isn’t afraid to speak that truth… really is a wrench in the lady group wheel. She just needs to be empowered by the backing of men sending her, because those women will turn around and go stir the pot against her. But if men and elders are in agreement on what’s Biblical, and she’s just a messenger, then she will have safety in that covering. And that’s what the bold woman, who’s willing to work for the church, needs. She’s needs backing, as still the weaker vessel.
Listened to this while I was doing the dishes and chuckled the whole time. Love the blunt truth!
Amen. Women need more men to stand up and say this. We need protection.A woman's ministry and women's ministries are two different things. Cleaning house &cooking for my sweet family is ministry, and a beautiful one that I don't regret ❤️
I've mentioned this problem in each church I've attended and you are the first pastor I have heard address it. 😳 Many women's ministries tear the church down from the inside out.
Do u mean like they are gossiping?
As a Christian woman, I 100% agree. Thank you.
I also 💯 agree.
As a Christian woman, I agree with your agree
As a Christian woman, I agree with Francisca's Agreement and with liza's agreement to Francisca's agreement.
Yes! Same here!
As always Pastor, marvelously offensive! (In that way that only you know how to pull off!) Thank you!
Oh my gosh! This is absolutely so tru! The few times I joined in on women’s ministry sessions, I was disturbed by what I heard & definitely NOT encouraged by the word of God! I chose to work with the kids ministry & speak truth into the next generation & I’m so thankful I did!
WOW! Spot on! Just came across this channel. Thanks for speaking truth.
You'll like this channel ;)
The truth is, women's ministries, such as those you described, are likely indicative of the greater problem of anemic knowledge of and adherence to God's Word. I recently had a protracted discussion with my octogenarian mother, who is otherwise terrifically lucid, but on the matter of the Old Testament, demonstrated a disturbingly contemporary view that it did not apply to Christians. Even after asking the obvious question of from what Bible did Jesus teach, she appeared unshaken in her view. This also is just another symptom of the greater malaise. The Andy Stanleys out there appear to have been working overtime and have insinuated themselves into a great many churches. Vigelence is useful. But, resolve is critical. Our church leaders must stand strong on God's Word and react swiftly and surely to nip these issues in the bud. And, this challenge cannot be met by sermons that attempt to mine esoteric meanings from single verses of Scripture in a superfluous reenactment of a seminary theology course. No, pastors must take it upon themselves to point out, extol, and reinforce the overarching Biblical principles at stake in the face of the onslaught of liberalism assaulting every member of the congregation every moment of every day. ...just one guy's rambling musings.
In my own observance, the whole “OT doesn’t apply to Christians today” thing, comes from the Word of Faith-ers. And their theology has seeped into the modern pop culture version of Christianity. So anyone following that blindly…. Will have some WoF garbage mixed in. Maybe you knowing the origin theology she’s gotten it from, will help you to be better equipped to dismantle it? 🙏🏽♥️
@@jaquirox6579 You would be well within the ballpark with your observation. Far too much of her personal theology appears to have stemmed from televangelists and their all too well known peculiarities (i.e., heresies). But subsequent good preaching has caused her to abandon some of the more flamboyant extremes (e.g., attack helicopters pictured in Revelation). So I am hopeful.
Many blessings. Maranatha!
@@jackuber7358 Have u considered trying to share some of the greats content with her? Specifically the ones that rebuke the tc evangelist claims? Some of them are pretty strongly entertaining along with their truth.
@@jaquirox6579 Thank you for that sage advice. Blessings.
@@jackuber7358 If it were me, I would think about the best faithful teachers I know on here, and then think about what sermons/teachings I recall that were massively impactful, but also had that entertainment factor that just captivated you. And send her something like that. Bait the carnal side with the entertainment part, but it’s a bait and switch because it’s a sound teacher that will drop some heavy truth bombs. I’m thinking a few of John Macs, and a ton of Paul Washer, those videos that just left you feeling like “holy crap I’m such a horrible sinner!” and you just feel so much more immensely aware of the Grace that God has given us, and thankful for it! A sermon or video like that. That just hits you in the guts with the stark reality of our place with God. But still has that heathen entertainment attractor. Lol! That’s what I would try for, and just let God go to work with convicting.
And of course I say all this, just trying to offer ideas. I hope my 2 cents was helpful. But if not, thank you for graciously humoring me. 😂♥️🙏🏽
Amen, well said.
Spot on, again! Now don’t go getting a big head about yourself. I don’t agree with everything you say-maybe 97.8%-but I’m a woman so who cares, am I right? 😂 But seriously...thank you, Pastor Wilson, for putting things so plainly and hilariously at the same time. It always makes my day.
Now that took some courage. Thanks for poking the she-wolf!
If Doug Wilson were to write a book on this topic the LORD would be pleased. Please and thank you!
Quilts are awesome.
I really enjoy them.😀
I know. I wish I would be subjected to quilting. I have no time. 🤣🤣🤣
Yes. 🎉🎉🎉
'Electrocuting the entire session' Sounds like a wonderful idea.
Edited for spelling.
I know me a few who could use it
Someone please explain the difference between this and what his daughter is doing...
I've never heard her trash men
Have you listened to his daughter? She could have written this.
From the Blog:
“There is a stark difference between women’s ministry and women ministering.”
I am so late to this party in several ways. But the first one is that I just found you today--7 months after it was posted. I am confused a little though. So are you saying women should not get together for Bible study unless a male pastor is the one teaching it? Or that women should not get together for study/prayer at all alone? They are to gather to do service for others but the rest is as a group under the leadership of the pastors (male). I can see your point big time if that is the case. It is just hard to find those pastors that are willing to do that since they are busy in many other ways. It is hard to find a pastor that is not watered down and well trained these days too. My son is in seminary and is shocked by what is being taught there. But that is where you go if you want the piece of paper to say you have qualifications to teach in a seminary once you graduate. I am at a point where I am trying to navigate what is familiar from all my life to what is actually the truth in the churches. Tough to figure out but oh so needed.
There shouldn’t be any small group that isn’t overseen by an elder. Aka male elder. I think he was giving the caveat that women could gather without the elder, if they were simply doing outward service for the community.
I'm a young Christian and had the desire to pursue biblical counseling. Is this a wrong desire to have? I am slightly confused. My pastor and elder has encouraged me to do so. I've even considered chaplaincy. I confess, I'm really not sure where God is leading me and would appreciate to hear more on this subject.
Honestly, Zandi, as often as I listen/read Doug this was actually pretty confusing. He needs to lay the groundwork for this issue since many of us havent heard it from him. I do think the role of biblical counselor at a church is reserved for the pastor which, Biblically speaking, should be a man. All believers have direction and material from Scripture on discipling other believers but as far as counseling goes in a church it should be done by a pastor.
Counseling can often be self-centered, ineffective and promote a consumer mentality that is detrimental to community and accountability. Christian or not.
I think this is why so many church staff burn out. We grow a flock of selfish needy sheep. Counselors can't solve this problem. War commanders and leaders can. Maybe that's his point?
So pleased to hear that God has worked in you a care for people, Zandi. I cannot see a biblical argument that all counsellors should be pastors. May I suggest you get in touch with CCEF (www.ccef.org/) - the most theologically sound place to train that I know of - and also read up on resources they may have that are geared toward this sort of question? CCEF is where the big theologicslly sound Christian counsellors like Powlison, Welch etc. have been.
And in terms of the question of entering vocational gospel ministry, I found this publication helpful: mts.com.au/for-apprentices/resources/all-for-the-kingdom/
It's from the Ministry Training Scheme, which is connected to the Sydney Anglican church, which is theologically solid and reformed.
Also, if you are in Australia, perhaps doing a Ministry Training Scheme might be worth considering, as a good way to further discern whether vocational gospel ministry is for you, and where you might best be suited? Gives you practical and theological training and lets you try out different areas of ministry. If you can't do that at your home church, there are churches that take outside applications. I've struggled with the question of entering vocational gospel ministry so I know a little bit about how confusing things can feel.
@@lkae4 Thanks, good points.
Canon Press / pastor Doug, incoming honest question...
I am candidating in churches, Baptist, and have these similar thoughts for a while now. I now really have to be specific now that I may be not only a member of a new church, but also shepherding.
Can you please lay out the argument for or against a woman as music director? (Leading in song, maybe reading scriptures etc) I know 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14, but what did those mean to Paul then and the churches?
Thank you!!
I know you asked this a year ago. But I’m going to just toss out my 2 cents. Everything that happens on Sunday, is leading the church in something. The music and singing, is leading the congregation in worshipping God. And the Bible simply says that women aren’t to be in any authority over men in the church. If I get to lead the praise music, I’m leading every man in that room, including the pastors, in how to worship God. And in God’s house, all those men are following my instruction. I’m not an expert on this or anything, but it just seems obvious that a woman shouldn’t hold that lead position. At minimum.
@@jaquirox6579 on point.
@@akyle96 Thank you kind Sir. ♥️🙏🏽
Bruh Doug is just built different 😭😭😭
That....was really good.
As long as she does not have an M Div and is related to Doug Wilson or a CC elder she can “minister to women” with a podcast, authoring a book, conference lecture. But don’t you dare call it the women’s ministry!!
Thanks Doug.
I'm curious how Titus 2:3-5 fits into this line of reasoning. How does this passage define the roles of women in the church along this line of reasoning more clearly?
Brilliant
“A small tribe of needy buckets, with grievances.” 😂😂😂😂😂👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
how and when did this change in the church come about historically? it was stated at the started 30 years ago, is that accurate?
AMEN.
The novel has so infected the Church, why not? But of course the paradox rises up to devour. The insistence on “exercising my gifts” eventually jackhammers the ground beneath.
Oh man!
Good on ya! I pray women will wake up and stop chasing honor (worldly) and let the Lord bestow it instead. Sexual degradation started in the church and it is the church that will be judged. 1 Peter 4:17
Good job , Thank You God says, “Let your women keep silent I. The church,,,, they are not permitted to speak, but Are commanded to be u dear obedience as also sayeth the Law “. Kinda plain !
Yeah, kinda plain that it was written 2k years ago under a different set of rules, too.
The fact that he advocates a civil conversation about this after suggesting flogging is unbelievable to me. It's amazing how blind he is to his own irony.
The flogging comment is humor. If you take it literally, it kind of ruins it.
Even women teaching on RUclips, who teach the Word correctly, need to go. They think because the ‘60s brought Feminism that, well, it’s okay. Wrong. No woman should be over any other man, Biblically.
I suppose they could preface their vlogs with a warning: for women only.
Somebody’s a tad bit low on the agreeableness scale. 😂
Pastor Wilson, You are a brave and noble soul. FYI: I hear the best choice during a bear attack is to play dead.....maybe this will work with Jezebels too? Hey, when you see Jesus, would you mind asking our Lord to put President Trump back in the White House please? Thanks old buddy. Oh, and thank you very much for helping me rapture, the rapture. That nonsense was poison. God bless
No, playing dead with them is like playing dead with wolves. Which will eat carrion like any other dog.