The Cold War US / Soviet Nuclear Submarine Crash | Scotland - 1974
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- In early 2017, The US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) released a de-classified document between US NSA Advisor Brent Scowcroft and US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, issued in 1974, alerting him of a collision between the USS James Madison (A Poseidon SLBM Nuclear Missile Submarine) and a Soviet Victor Class Attack Submarine just outside the US Navy Submarine base (Refit Site 1 / Subron14) at Holy Loch, Scotland on 3rd November 1974.
*Disclaimer* This video is put together from various international media reports, online open source documents, and published personal vlog accounts both by US and Soviet veterans, and remember, accounts will vary!
The British Government has never commented on this incident officially!
The 2017 CIA release provoked a short media frenzy in the UK, with the UK Mainstream Media sensationalizing the story and claiming the incident was a Nuclear Weapons accident which nearly started World War 3, which was the reason for the cover up.
However Russian TV (NTV) poured scorn on these over inflated claims, in an evening news report tracking down former Soviet Submarine sailors to tell their story. Naming the Soviet submarine as the Victor 1 Class K306 attack submarine. and that the collision was actually a rather minor shunt with no nuclear reactor or weapons damaged.
What is apparent from the present day Russian TV news feature and from the wording of the CIA report, is that the collision took place deep inside British sovereign territory, on the Firth of Clyde, opposite the town of Greenock and just 20 miles from Scotland's largest city Glasgow.
It therefore represented the most egregious breach of UK territory by the Soviet Armed Forces during the entire Cold War. Which was only disclosed due to the accidental underwater collision.
This video visits the scene 50 years later, and seeks to piece together the full story of the 1974 Clyde Soviet Victor Crash from all the media noise, and hypothetically examines the possible covert activity and espionage that may have compromised the USS James Madison's departure date.
Also I look at the political tensions in 1974 between the US and UK that affected the decisions afterwards, And why neither the US or British Governments will discuss the incident even today.
Chapters:
00:20 Introduction
01:32 The Secret Telegram to Henry Kissinger
06:05 The US Holy Loch Submarine Base, Scotland
12:41 Soviet Espionage activity in Scotland
15:10 The K306 Submarine enters The Clyde
18:48 The Collision 03/11/1974
22:49 The Aftermath
#submarine #coldwar #soviet #nuclear
I was a crew member onboard the U.S.S. James Madison in the mid eighties and it was common knowledge that the boat had collided with a Russian sub. The event was prior to my time on the boat and no one onboard was part of the crew during the incident. Thank you for filling in my missing knowledge on the subject.
@tmcmurdo826Thanks Chief, for your additional information on this matter.
This is a great comment, the sort of Info you won't hear anywhere else.
I was in the force going through the submarine advanced electronics program when it happened. We heard about the incident but not all of the details. I was a sonarman. Later on in my career as an instructor in the tactical training department, one of the courses I taught was SSSA (submarine sonar subjective analysis), I had access to the tapes and other data, this was in the early 80s. What I didn't know was that the UK was busy fighting over cod fish instead of securing access to a site where multiple ballistic missile boats, each with the capability of carrying 160 nuclear warheads was located. My first patrols were out of Rota, Spain, later on out of Scotland. What I did know and you probably don't was that NONE of our NATO "allies" would allow us to tie up to one of their piers. That is why we had a tender and drydock anchored in the Holy Loch. Thank you "allies". The only country that allowed us to dock at their piers was Spain. Spain at the time was ruled by Francisco Franco, a fascist dictator since the Spanish civil war in the 1930s. Franco died in 1975 and we were booted out of Spain shortly thereafter, that is how I ended up making patrols out of Scotland. Spain became a NATO member in 1982. Both Spain and Scotland are beautiful places and the regular citizens were very cordial. The hills you see around the loch in this video were places I hiked and biked when I had the time, a wonderful experience. The US and the Soviet Union played cat and mouse games routinely, just part of the job. Shit happens.
@raymondrobbins698 Great brief Ray, TY, nice story. Before volunteering for Submarines, I did a Med Cruise aboard a DLG out D&S piers NOB, Norfolk, in 70/71. I concur with your comments about Spain, the people there, and especially the no nosense of the Spanish military and National police, the Guardia civil.
Yes it was known
Paint samples is no just a joke, it is data that could influence the ability to detect a submarine. Certain coatings of a submarine hull can influence sonar performance. It can also give clues about maintenance or where a sub has spent time. It might yield nuclear secrets as well. - Dr Curt Small, formerly LCDR, Naval Medical Corps 1978
I've walked and hiked many of the Lochs of Scotland over the years, the absolute peace and beauty is almost overwhelming.. I think of sitting on the shore basking in the utter tranquility, feet lazily dangling in the clear loch as I laugh and joke with the family... a hundred feet away, two immense, advanced weapons and hundreds of sailors sit silently playing at total war, completely unseen, just beneath the surface of the cool, dark water
Submarines are *fkn terrifying*
Hiking a Loch sounds pretty terrifying too tbf. I hope you had goggles and a snorkel with you 😆
I remember those times. What is particularly fixed in my memory are the sheer amount of fishing trawlers that 'caught' submarines and were sunk. Those submarines could have been form any side - it showed us just how active the submarine fleets were.
And that is the true reason why subs don't submerge until they reach the Irish sea, not like the NATO doctrine as said in this video.
@@randommadness1021 Antares disaster in 1990 had a big part to play in that change. As late as Nov 1990 submerged subs roaming the Firth of Clyde right through known fishing grounds was a known problem. Antares was in the Bute sound off the coast of Arran when her nets were snagged, nowhere near the "normal" route up into the Clyde. She was a 34t trawler out of Carradle and investigation estimated that the crew would have had seconds to react before the boat foundered and was dragged under. My cousin, Stewart Campbell was 29 at the time and one of the 4 lost. The oldest aboard was the skipper and he was still in his 30's.
I'm willing to bet there's even more stories like this that either won't see the light of day or at least for decades.
If ever. Former fast attack submariner here.
For Cold War submarine activities, you might want to pick up a copy of "Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage" by Sherry Sontag, Christopher Drew and Annette Lawrence Drew (c)2008 and for World War II Pacific Theater of Operations submarine stories, "Submarine!" by US Navy Captain Edward L. Beach, originally (c)1952 but republished numerous times. Captain Beach served in US submarines during WW2, including at Midway, and during the Cold War, notably commanding the USS Triton. "In November 1959, Beach took command of USS Triton, the only American nuclear-powered submarine to be equipped with two nuclear reactors. Departing New London on what was supposed to have been a "shake-down" cruise in February 1960, Triton began a 1960 circumnavigation of the Earth in 84 days without surfacing, covering over 41,000 statute miles (66,000 km), an unprecedented feat. The route of Triton followed roughly that of Ferdinand Magellan in 1519-1522."-Source: Wikipedia
For sure
In the 1970's, my father was the Commanding officer Squadron 2 in New London, Connecticut. The squadron had three divisions of 7 nuclear boats each and one of those boats was the USS Tullibee, SSN 597. Tullibee was a nuclear attack submarine but had been retrofitted for an ASW role, with additional sonar arrays mounted on her upper deck. One day, I was driving onto base with my Dad when he was notified of Tullibee's return to the base after patrol. We went down to the docks and witnessed Tullibee approaching down the Thames river. I immediately noticed extensive damage to the forward sonar array on the upper hull, forward of the sail. I asked my Dad about it and he grinned and said they had hit 'something' while on patrol. I also asked him if the CO was in trouble and my father said, 'No, he's not in any trouble.'
@reggierico Great story about the 597 Boat. Thanks for posting it. I remember her when I was going to basic enlisted Subschool and a follow on "C" school, the fall of 71 at Groton, CN. Such a small world. My first 620 Boat Gold Crew skipper was the commissioning crew OpsNav of the TULLIBEE, and was very good friends with her commissioning crew Chief Engineer, John W. Harvey, who later on became the second skipper of the THRESHER (SSN-593).
First off, you have Fast-Attack and you have Boomers. Boomers DO NOT get converted to Fast-Attack/ASW as that is already the role of a Fast-Attack like the Los Angeles Class. Second, that C.O. would have been removed from Command on the simple premise of THE IDIOT CRASHED HIS SUB!
I was on patrol onboard the SSBN 628 Tecumseh when this happened. The Gold crew was going to take over our boat in a couple of weeks. We were informed that we were not to comment on anything concerning the collision. I had friends on the Madison. Fellow NUCs. Whenever a nuclear sub surfaced the ELTs would be the first up to take swipes to be checked for radiation. The Madison's ELT said that upon surfacing, the Russian sub was also close by. He said the captain of the soviet boat and the captain of the Madison sort of shrugged. They closed hatches and parted ways. Love that story.
SOSUS was added to the general Clyde area possibly due to this incident, and it was not uncommon for Soviet vessels and Trawlers to come in close to the Clyde and North Channel dropping their own listening devices, which went on right until the end of the Cold War. RN divers often tried to recover these devices, but they were often booby trapped and the electronics flooded with Acid if disturbed making recovery risky. I know a few stories!
I grew up on the coast of North Ayrshire in the 1960s and early '70s returning nuclear submarines used to surface opposite our beach and continued on the surface to base - as young boys we knew the difference in silhouette between British nuclear hunter killer and poseidon submarines and US nuclear submarines. I also remember the daily passing of US Navy vehicles by our house on their way between Prestwick airport and Holy Loch Navy base.
Thing I never thought about in my teenage years, I was more worried about an excavator digging up another WW2 bomb in Kilmacolm as they used to find down in the marshland...I'm more worried about a rogue Russian sub hitting an old WW2 mine,like the one off the Isle of Bute recently!
Very true but I wasn’t so good at telling the different types of sub - the first whale I ever seen off the coast I thought it was a sub from the Holy Loch.
The size of nuclear subs makes it quite easy to tell the difference. Seen a wee hunter killer going up the Clyde about 2 days ago.
Many years ago while in the sea cadets we got a trip onto the service ship. It was probably one of those good relations exercises for local cadets. We got some food on board and a small tour. We got ferried over on one of their "tenders", we got turns to look at the radar screen, where the screen had a cowling around it and viewed from the top, I could not get enough of that and tried to identify the blips on the screen with objects on the surface. I was too young to appreciate everything about the trip and sights at the time. Big thanks to the sailors and all those that made the trip possible.
That was great! Thank you!
I left Charleston Christmas eve 1977 bound for Holy Loch for my first patrol, and what a grand adventure it was.
I can add one thing to this little mystery - the first thing that occurred to me was that Madison dived really early; perhaps procedures were changed after that.
Anyway, thanks - always loved everything from Dunoon to Sand Bank.
it would seem that diving early revealed USSR tactics. if he had not done so then how many more US subs could have been tracked this way?
I was a member of Group 6 in Charleston from 82-86. Did 8 refits in Loly Loch. It was odd they submerged so early.
Hello from Sandbank.🏴🇺🇸
The soviets sent their subs inside all european waters for mapping and other intelligence. After the fall of the soviet union, some tourists came over and bought soviet military maps of our coast, it was more detailed than any maps our military or civillian maritime institutions could produce. The russian subs have from time to time the last 25 years been caught deep in sovereign waters, left visual trails on the bottom of the seabed, meaning they sent out remote operated vehicles from the subs.
In the late 69's I served on a submarine based in Norfolk, Va. Part of our mission was to patrol our East Coast, and chase Soviet "Fishing Trawlers" that carried more antennas than fishing nets and would try and get close to our Atlantic Bases.
I have seen Soviet military maps with the whole layout of Chatham RN Dockyard all the installations everything, and if you where to buy a map of Chatham or Rochester a civilian map would not have it on the map !!
I had read about this, but it was really cool to see how small the waters of the collision site really were.
I was stationed aboard the USS Canopus in Holy Loch at the time. There was a big stir about a sub returning to the base and it was under a veil of secrecy as well as a HUGE curtain across both sides of the Dry Dock. It wasn't until 3 or more months later that the story filtered out. When asked about it from the locals we just replied that "They don't tell us anything" and left it at that.😁
There were tourist boats that came really close to the Ship at times when they were handling missiles over the side and had to be warned off at gunpoint so security was taken seriously. ........................... enjoy
Seems like we were too concerned about locals getting a little look compared to the Soviets driving unmolested straight into our backyard!
Hello from Sandbank.
@@rupertdabear3148yes but also who’s to say that those tourist boats didn’t have officers from the KGB/GRU on board too
So what the fuck was in those barrels that were found on the bottom of the Holy Loch when our government had to pay £5m to clean it up and then the MOD got involved when those barrels were found?
All I know is that your government denied all knowledge and my government wouldn't open them without it being in a radiation proof room that used remote control robotic arms to open them.
Never got to find out what was inside of them, once tge MOD got involved it got all hushed up. Was all over the news here at the time until they obviously got told to keep their mouths shut.
@@barryhamilton7845hello from Dunoon. 😅
I did 8 SSBN patrols as part of Squadron 14 out of Holy Loch in the early to mid 80s. I had heard of this story but I thought it was an urban myth if you will. There were always Soviet surveillance ships disguised as fishing trawlers off the coast just outside of the 12 mile limit. The one thing in this video that was not true when I was stationed there was that we flew into Prestwick Airport in Glasgow on a civilian charter aircraft and rode busses to Grennock where we rode a boat to Site 1 in Dunoon.
Fished the holy loch n poached at night... seen some sight if naval activity.
Yes, same comment. Many buses travelling up and down the A78 coastal road from Prestwick through my home village. Seem to recall a fatal car accident at the first roundabout north of prestwick. Driver straight off the plane, into a right hand drive car and round the wrong side of the roundabout, tired after a long flight.
Preswick makes much more sense because Mildenhall and Lakenheath are not airlift bases. They're strike bases. Fairford would probably make more sense than those two.
@@davidboreham I’m not totally sure but think mildenhal is an air lift base. It’s definitely a refuelled base with the KC135 and also it use to air life to east Germany. But I agree with you. Too far for submarine crew to be stationed there. But you never know….. could be a reason why the second crew would be stationed there.
Husband of wife’s friend, 20 odd years in submarine’s, RN, he told me that there were many collisions and near misses over his career.
Happened much more often then you can imagine. Spent 4 years on Guam, 1973-1976 working in private business and there were two similar incidents with boomers during that time. One with major life threatening damage.
Great story, my Late Dad was a Cold War Cox'n on Submarines at this time. He did some crazy stuff but unfortunately he took his secrets to the grave. I love to hear about this type of stuff. These boat crews were another breed. Thanks for the vid
Made 3 patrols out of Holy Loch onboard Robert E Lee SSBN 601 Really liked the Scots. They treated us well.
I think we can safely call this incident a Soviet intelligence fail. You don’t crash into your surveillance target. It’s not a good idea.
Spoken like someone who never served on a submarine
Not much of a fail...
They got in...
Yes, and the US sub crashed into them, not the other way round.
@@jaywalker3087Wasn't the intention of the soviet exercise to monitor the US sub passing by and without being detected, follow the US sub to see where it went.
Looks to me like they failed.
I guess it's a success that they damaged a US boat and delayed it going on patrol for a while, without starting a war!
@@alanm8932I guess NATO didn’t view it as a failure because they covered it up instead of using it for PR purposes. Plus the James Madison captain didn’t follow standard procedure making it a freak event and not a fail. Nobody knows how many times the Soviets did this before this collision or after.
"One of our Submarines is missing tonight, exchanging whiskey for vodka in a reported billion pound Loch-in" 🤣
First I'd heard of this.... makes me think of my third SSBN Patrol in early 1973 out of Guam, (Old Subron 15) aboard the SSBN-620 boat. Gold crew. Qualifed (SS) May of 72, first patrol. And, you gotta give that Soviet SSN skipper a gold star for ballsy effort, a real life no shitter sea story for SubVets on both sides.
I know of another incident that has been covered up, two US Submarines and one or possibly two Russian subs were doing a standoff off the Atlantic coast of the USA. The Russian subs were diesel/electric and the US ones were nuclear.
Apparently the posturing was getting serious and the Russian and the US subs were getting a bit twitchy, but what was unbeknownst to the Russians is that the two US Submarines were Training with a British diesel/electric submarine that was nearby.
According to what I heard the British sub was requested to give the Russian subs a "scare" and as per the story the British sub either fired a torpedo from behind and went right between the subs and then was safely detonated as a warning or the British sub snuck really close to the Russians and then made themselves know they were there in a very "British and royal navy way" whatever that means.
Anyway the Russian subs were spooked enough to turn tail back to Russia where the British sub followed them all the way back to just north of Scotland where another submarine and surface ships took over.
Now this is just a story I heard from a submariner that was on the British submarine.
All I know is that this happened during the cold war and was kept quiet for some reason.
The Russian subs were apparently unaware of the presence of the British sub throughout the ordeal until it was actively saying here I am.
All I know of the British sub is that it was an O boat class, I am not sure what one it was or what the American subs were.
I also know of a British sub who was spying on China very close to a naval base but was detected so had to slip away and it did successfully, but they did hear depth charges going off in the distance.
So technically a British sub was depth charged in Chinese waters but the Chinese missed by a long way.
Make of that as you will as this story has never been released as well.
Just imagine if the British sub was sunk in Chinese waters 😮
Guessing that a loud SONAR ping was telecasted @ that Russian sub and that is how they "announced their presence".
@@curtiskretzer8898I very much guess so, it would make a lot more sense. I will ask the next time I see my family member about it but I do distinctly remember he said they launched a torpedo of some kind maybe a noise maker possible I am not 100% sure.
But I suspect that a very loud ping was used.
@@davedevonlad7402I was assuming they played the national anthem to them! Or as it was very British and "Royal Navy" way, perhaps the sound of one of those "piping aboard" whistle sequences.
If a sonar ping is how you surprisingly announce your presence, I would have thought that would be the same for every navy. So nothing particularly British or Royal Navy about it.
Or is it that the Royal Navy are the only ones to always "surprise" with a loud ping but as they have never themselves been surprised in such a way, they are under the illusion that no submarine has ever crept up on them!
@@davedevonlad7402 Giving the opposition a lashing with active sonar would be the pretext to launching a torpedo so maybe that's what it was? It'd be the underwater equivalent of a fighter pilot observing another aircraft at a range where they thought they were effectively invisible before the radar lock warnings start screaming because another unseen threat had been tracking them. You definitely wouldn't fire a torpedo because that'd be a reckless act of aggression and you can never be certain that there isn't another submarine in the area that you're not aware of. Submarine warfare is terrifying, you can never be certain that you're alone down there
@@DjDolHaus86 oh absolutely I agree, I believe it was active sonar or the noisemaker of some kind, but my family member said they fired something because they came home one short of a full load.
Both sides performed this Cold War loitering activity quite routinely. It was much easier for the Russians to pick up the Americans at close range due to the quiet nature of the US subs. Indeed I understand that it was entirely routine for the UK boats to have to take evasive action when leaving Faslane for the open ocean. I know of one captain who had charted a special escape route that it was believed that the Soviet boats could not have followed. It involved tearing up the sound of Jura and ripping out of the infamous gulf of Corryvrechan! Once the trail was lost there was little chance of reacquisition for the Soviet boats. The days of clam dredging made it a very noisy environment for sonar operations. A gentleman’s agreement was maintained for the duration never to release news of such collisions. The book Blind Mans Bluff is a fabulous account of the daring goings on.
I can vouch to the route through the Gulf of Corryvreckan. I walked Jura in the late 70s and got to a point where I could see the famous whirlpool - when a British SSBN running on the surface came through heading west. Quite a surprise.
Blind man's Bluff is an excellent read. I grew up in Norfolk and heard some great stories!!!
@@barrylarking8986 They had shore leave on more than one occasion in the Loch Melfort Hotel and left commemorative plaques in the chartroom bar there.
Nice video thanks, I live in the area and great to see the old Holy Loch footage, which most older adults here can remember vividly! Just to correct that the ferry to Dunoon isn't from Greenock, it's from Gourock, in case anyone wants to retread your footsteps!
Never thought the Soviets could sail so easily into our most protected nuclear area - right past my house. Embarrassing to say the least. Navy heads should have rolled.
It's almost as if submarines are capable of incredible feats of stealth or something..🤔
At that time automatic recognition of signatures was very hard, if not impossible. You would have needed a skilled operator looking at a lot of sonar readouts.. and even then, if he was handy he could have sailed in with the tide, not using propulsion at all.. That would make it even harder to find it.
heads likkely did roll, but not that badly as the submarines were the most stealthy vehicles the world had back then, however if the American and British Navy were to start throwing depth charges after her it would have been an entirely opposite outcome and being in the Loch, they were unimaginably vulnerable so it was likely the Russian commander would have been removed from his position and even demoted, since he put a Russian Submarine and it crew and the top secret materials in the sub int almost certain peril, and his gamble failed. However if you think NATO submarines didn't do the same thing in Russian territory, you are sadly mistaken. The Americans and British Subs did the same thing and even more egregious violations of sovereign territory. like parking off Russian coast and send out divers to tap into Russian telephone likes and communications systems and then use it to gain real intelligence on Russian activity in the Pacific. Similar even happened in Russia's northern fleet harbors too/ SO it was a constant back and forth, this was just one of the incidents that embarrassed RUssia and UK at the same time, and altered the way American Subs acted in allied waters.
If you think that is embarrassing then have a think about this. It is known in the RN submarine circles that Russian submarines were able to track our nuclear deterrent out to sea because the Cameron government got rid of the Nimrod anti submarine aircraft and didn't replace them just to save money and in spite of warnings from just about anyone with knowledge or common sense. Only in the last couple of years has this capability been brought back into service with the introduction of Poseidon aircraft. Politicians are stupid morons. But hey, at least the banks were saved.
@@joerivanlier1180did they not use active sonar?
Many of us see the UK as a smaller older brother. We very much feel a connection to the UK. And if we were expected to gaurd the borders of the UK, I think most Americans would say absolutely we must. Of course in a hot war we would as NATO and our agreements say. But in any condition, I believe my nation would feel responsible to stand up for the UKs safety.
The UK is no slouch. And would likely do the same for us? But Americans are all well aware of were we immigrated from.
"Suggesting the UK media are emotional and panicky"...... geee ya gotta hand it to those Russians. Another smashing video thank you.
Thanks for the video. Another very interesting tale. I once had a briefing from an Australian sub captain, who carried out similar 'cheeky' missions. Unfortunately, many of those stories remain untold.
They sure did some crazy shit with the Oberon's
Your videos are great, factual, no bollox, and very well presented, thanks for the effort you put into them, I at least appreciate it.
Much appreciated!
you don't need pretty girls.... the taxi drivers know everything.
I'd heard of shithousery going on with subs in the Irish sea back in the '80's. Due to the number of mysterious trawler sinkings, there was a belief that submarines were responsible. NATO boats would leave Fastlane and receive a shadow... sometimes there would be a third boat shadowing the soviet shadow. Alternately, a Soviet nuclear sub would race down the irish sea, (a big noisy bastard) to gain the attention of NATO who'd dispatch a shadow, which in turn would receive a Soviet shadow.
I had a cousin aboard FV Antares that operated out of Carradle, Argyll. He was one of 4 lost in Nov 1990 when Antares nets were snagged by HMS Trenchent while they were running submerged in known fishing grounds doing their perisher excersizes. That incident was another that nearly got swept under the carpet and probably would have if it hadn't been for the amount of public attention drawn to it really early on.
Another of Andy's brilliant informative videos, narrated as ever in his inimitable style! Thanks !
I'm so glad the algorithm recommended this video. Subscribed. Your investigation is so thorough and your presentation is great.
My late friend lived in Helensburgh on the Clyde not far from the Faslane base he told me about this story many years ago, You can't keep a secret like this in small West coast town that is dominated by the Navy, my friend did not even work at the base either he was a Hotelier.
Its the same in Pompey as back in the 80s and 90s it was common knowledge that there subs where in the Solent. Sailors do like to chat when they have had a few beers lol .
This could explain the reopening of a base in Wales in the 70s coonnected with the infant SOSUS system and it's subsequent upgrading, there's nothing like a politician caught with egg on their faces and being made to look more incompetent than usual to get them to spend money. That Soviet commander must have been one hell of a navigator, I do wonder what his fate was. A cracking Video Andy, Thank's 👍🇬🇧👍
Superbly produced video and highly enjoyable with an intriguing bit of Cold War lore that was new to me. Cheers!
Weird, like 3 days ago I was looking for a good video on this topic. There is almost nothing out there about this. Thanks for making this.
Not 'English' papers panicking or being emotional but simply sensationlising, as they do with everything in order to sell more copies. An excellent story, backed up by impressive graphics and editing I've seen (or should I say monitoring) this for several days now and am pleasantly surprised. 👍
Thanks for calling out the peace movement. I remember hearing confirmation of KGB involvement in the news late 90s. The story went nowhere in the US. Enjoyed this video Andy. Nice work. 'Good on ya'.
The “ Red Clydsiders “ connection ran deep in the 70’s . Normally the AGI’s would have waited between Arran and the Alisa Craig to squire her target .
Excellent video;)
Its rumoured that the plot of one of the WARSHIP books where a soviet sub is found in UK waters was based on this - mainly because the author was a serving RN officer and wrote most of the episodes for the series too
I knew about some of this because my dad was in the RN at the time and it was fairly common knowledge that Ivan and his bears would sneak in. 9/10 they were detected but nothing was done about it because then they'd have some idea of our detection gear and this was during a period when we were not such good friends with Uncle Sam
Strangely an episode of the Warship TV series in the late 1970's predicted the Falklands conflict.
"""Predicted"""
What the Russian sub was doing is 100% the same as what the US Navy would get the Australian Navy to do in the Pacific & Indian Oceans. As the US subs were too big for many areas, they would get the Australian Oberon Class boats to spy in estuary's and any area where Soviet warships would go. They would record the prop sound of say a new Soviet ship, then when stopped, they would get so close and photograph the props through the periscope. Much of this was kept from the Australian Government but whilst under the Command of a RN Officer they were nearly caught, and when the Government was told they were told to stop it. But from what I have heard these spy missions continued with the Collins class. I have spoken with quite a few of the crews who carried out these operations.
There is still much submarine activity off the North West coast of Scotland. My daughter sent me film taken by a skipper of a submarine making surface in and around the Outer Hebrides, the skipper told her it was a fairly common occurrence.
Having been close up to Norwegian subs docked at Leith, there is something deeply ominous about them.
Every time you hear of a spate of whales/dolphins beaching along the coast it does make you wonder what dangerous games are being played beneath the waves
Andy, that was a brilliant documentary you made there. Thank you so much. I live near Glasgow and until today never had any idea of the incident.
If it makes you feel any better, there was a Russian sub in the Clyde in 2018,for all I know maybe more recently...as the Chinese are venturing further from home they've already been detected in the Med...only a matter of time...as a lifelong Indy supporter, I do not back the SNP's military stance, a strong military presence is required, the WEF puppets will get strung up one day,that's when Schwab's Chinese friends with get angry...once they cannot rely on our traitors!
Second video of the channel I watched in 2 days. New subscriber. As a creator myself I wanted to just give a nod to the immersive show you produce.
Great post Andy. I used to live in Garelochhead and watched the missile subs cruising out past Rhu many times.
I was half expecting after the crash for the two crews to climb out on deck and shout obscenities at their counterparts across the water.
Thank you, I saw my cottage that was on the bank of the Clyde. Many fond memories. I suspected that there was a lot of skullduggery there, and even had a Scottish fellow try to pump me for info. Hard to get a non-drinker to give up info. I began my 22 years career repairing subs at Holy Loch.
I live in Dunoon. I used to live on the banks of the Holy Loch but I know live round the corner to Kirn. My window now actually looks out to where this crash took place. I watch the subs going up and down the estuary all the time.
Fantastic video Andy and it brought back so many memories while watching. I was a young lad back in the early seventies and my family and I were in and around Greenock and Gourock regularly in those days. My father was raised in Greenock and we would visit my grandparents most Sundays. We would take them for a day trip down to the Clyde estuary from their home in nearby Bishopton. We would regularly see the subs sailing in and out of the Clyde and you could get a fabulous view of the Holy Loch from the top of the Lyle hill in Gourock (as seen in your video) especially with a good pair of binoculars. Things that stood out for me was the presence of several American cars at the time. As a boy It was amazing to see American muscle cars driving around, Corvettes, Pontiacs and Mustangs brought over by the navy personnel. Seeing them and hearing them next to our Hillman Hunters and Ford Cortinas was a sight to behold and one I will never forget.
Many years later I was now working as a control systems engineer and had reason to work in the old Dunoon grammar school on their BMS control system. When viewing the surnames on the school board I was taken by the amount of non Scottish sounding names of many of the pupils. A true testament to the American presence of the past and how integrated with the local society they had become.
I was also called in to the Sandbank Health centre which had just been built primarily for American family healthcare. When entering the building it was like you had been transported to America! The walls were draped with the Stars and Stripes flags. The staff I saw were American and they even had American telephones. It was a great experience and a lot of local business's felt the pain when they left in 92.
A very interesting read is “Secrets of the Conqueror” it’s about HMS Conqueror and what she got up to in the cold,very James Bond!
This is an example is an example of how submariners are called the Silent Service. We don’t talk about classified material. We don’t talk about what goes on on patrol. The crew understands things are on a Need to Know basis.
Andy your creative use of AI imagery in your otherwise factual storytelling is really well done. Thanks for the great video.
My wife's grandfather was a career US Navy submariner. He once mentioned that they would closely loiter and monitor Soviet sub bases, and colliding with another boat in some of the narrow waterways that they went up was a concern that would have everyone on edge. I wonder if he knew about this incident.
They then exchanged insurance information and left
Great cold war story, nicely put together.
The nod to Ice Station Zebra is a big plus. I saw the film when it came out, at the British Army cinema at Stanley Fort in Hong Kong!
Another good reason for the mutual silent agreement between all three parties involved to keep a lid on all of it, was the need for consequences for such an incursion by the Soviets should it become public. As in many such incidents before and after this one, the best course of action was to keep silent and carry on.
I was in and out of Holy Loch several time during that time. Ironically the boat I was on was there to do much the same sort of thing the Russian boat was doing but to keep track of the Russian boats. Also to delouse our Poseidon boats of Russian surveillance boats. Only difference is that we didn’t get caught with our pants down.
Just found your channel. Thoroughly enjoyed this saga.
It would be interesting to know what type of security precautions had been taken for both the British and American sub fleets in the Clyde Estuary? Surface patrols; underwater listening devices; mines; sub nets? Thanks for a very interesting report!!
Mainly the anti sub Sea Kings based at HMS Gannet Prestwick. Backed up with Nimrods from Kinloss and St Mawgan.
I'm sure they deployed every detector they had available after this happened.
They would not deploy mines in their own port, but they could have used radio tracked limpet mines if someone had the genius at the time to manufacture them.
They installed SOSUS in many Lochs starting shortly after this incident, though I don't know if it was as a direct result
My father was onboard the USS James Madison as a Machinest Mate when this collision occurred. We just watched your video together to see how it compared to what actually happened that day.
My uncle was a JO onboard at the time. Unfortunately he died last year, so I couldn't confirm his presence with him...got that from his son, who I reached out to after I stumbled upon an article about the release of classified docs -- specifically the Skowcroft cable. He said his dad told him he thought for a split-second that it was all over. Wish I'd known about this incident before his wife's funeral (where I last saw him)...I'd love to have been able to hear his recounting first hand.
Quite a feat for the Soviets to sneak into port like that. Top brass must have secretly researched the incident for many years after in order to prevent it from happening again. I bet a plethora of submarine detectors were added all up and down those locks!
Right up there with Gunther Prien and Scapa Flow, but--thankfully--no torpedoes were fired in anger, and everybody lived.
I bet they added. In Cold War times in Finland we had the Soviet subs in Gulf of Finland.
It seems that our navy did built very covering listening network at the bottom.
Russians mapped the bottoms and rehersed at neutral countries waters.
The idea in Finland was not to show If they were detected, if it wasn't too nosy. Idea was not to show what Finnish Navy detects. And off course built voice libraries for active marine mines.
In real situation where Russians roamed like home would have turned out death trap, because the main way of securing the waters were and are the mines.
In Finland the public commotion in 1980's in Sweden about submarine detections was looked funny way. Off course Russians violated the waters, but to make it public that you had detected them... Then Russians knew it too.
Maybe it was due the "Whisky on Rocks" incident 1981 where Russian Whiskey-class sub managed to get stranted in Swedish waters close to main Swedish Naval station Karlskrona and the stuck sub was first dedected by the civilians...
The sub was armed by nuclear torbedos etc. Swedes measured that.
After that Swedes vent crazy in public sub hunting.
In Finland too nosy Russians vere repelled by small hand thrown deep charges from coast guard boats or vessels.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363
An interesting, very well made video! Thank you for making.
A view from next to Soviet union. In Cold War times in Finland we had the Soviet subs in Gulf of Finland.
We were not part of the Easter block, but neutral next to this crazy imperialistic superpower. And had been attacced by it.
It seems that our navy did built very covering listening network in the bottom.
Russians mapped the bottoms and rehersed at neutral countries waters.
The idea in Finland was not to show If they were detected, if it wasn't too nosey. Idea was not to show what Finnish Navy detects. And off course built voice libraries for active marine mines.
In real situation where Russians roamed like home would have turned out death trap, because the main way of securing the waters here were and are the mines. In WW2 the Soviet navy was blocked useless to the Eastern edge of the Finnish Gulf by mines and submarine net across the gulf.
In Finland the public commotion in 1980's in Sweden about submarine detections was looked funny way. Off course Russians violated the waters, but to make it public that you had detected them... Then Russians knew it too was considered stubid.
Maybe it was due the "Whisky on Rocks" incident 1981 where Russian Whiskey-class sub managed to get stranted in Swedish waters close to main Swedish naval station Karlskrona and the stuck sub was first dedected by the civilians...
The sub was armed by nuclear torbedos etc. Swedes measured that.
After that Swedes vent crazy in public sub hunting.
In Finland too nosey Russians vere repelled by small hand thrown deep charges from coast guard boats or vessels. And this was rarely made public.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363
Great video and analysis, the only nitpick I have is that SSBN doesn't stand for "submersible ship ballistics nuclear"; the SS is a generic label for all submarines that doesn't stand for anything (same as DD for destroyers or FF for frigates) and the B and N are designators for ballistic missile and nuclear respectively (do note that they don't stand for ballistic or nuclear though). This gets a whole lot more clear and important when looking at other platforms like radar, where there are 26 different designators that don't align at all (e.g. J for passive sonar, Q for sonar, W for submarine sonar, etc).
State Ship is what I had heard it as,w/USS= United States Ship
Wow very nicely put together I wasn’t aware of this incident. It was only last week myself and our dive club went diving in inverkip bay Greenknock unfortunately we didn’t see any Russian submarine unless we scared them away . 😂
A very interesting story that happened on my doorstep as I live about 10 minutes up the road from there.
I thought the video was great, very interesting, and well researched. I can't wait till the next one. Thank you.
I grew up in Dunoon on the Holy Loch in the 1980s. The USN DID have permanent shore based facilities including depots, barracks, workshops, offices and recreational facilities. It wasnt all based on the loch.
Because of my father's job I visited the depot ship and dry dock many times. I also visited and got a guided your of a Poseidon boat the USS Calvin B Marshall.
Did the submarine continue "down" the Clyde and turn in a wider stretch before turning to go back to the Holy Loch? The reason I ask is that when I was young, I saw a sub visible from Saltcoats, not a normal thing to see, and although exact year eludes me, '74 would have been a good estimate.
Comaccio Group 1999....so long ago, and we took security in this region deadly seriously. Most of the submarine base is underground, and the facility is incredible to witness. I can't say exactly how large it is, but consider there are several underground Sub bases around Holy Loch where nuclear subs are earned..... in huge caves where Trident 2 D5 missiles can be lifted in and out of (at the time) Vanguard Class submarines. seriously the scale is difficult to comprehend, with hardly any sign of the facilities above ground. There are numerous subterranean bases in the hills all round there. I was annoyed at first, to end up working in Scotland, but I'm glad I did now, it was a real eye opener.
Well done - I never heard of this incident - great research!
I live in Greenock and have never heard of this, fascinating story!
Don't forget a U-boat crept into Scapa Flow and sunk HMS Royal Oak , taking most of her crew , including nearly all of the 14 year old apprentices.....
cool... the morse at 15:06 says something like : "f clyde e". I.e., something about "clyde". Very appropriate. :) Well done. A typical fx would just send random gibberish that sounds like morse code.
Many thanks to Scotland for her contributions to our joint defense.
Great content from the most beautiful country in the world! Immediately subscribed! I travelled extensively around Scotland. Expecially the Hebredies are beautiful bejond imagination. The place where my soul rests forever.. Had it not for Brexit, I would live there now..😢
Greetings from Germany! Hoping to see Scotland again..❤
This was only a few miles from my home.
Excellent film, really enjoyed it.
WOW! Excellent story. Lived on SSBNs from 1976 to 1990. Served many years in Holy Loch as a Blue Crew member on two different Loch Subs. Was very cool to see some very familiar Dunoon Scenery.
In about june 1973 I was the skipper of a small coaster called the MANTA heading up the south of the clyde about 4 miles south of the isle of arron it was about 2am in flat calm weather and foggy ,I saw an orange light just to my port bow we didnt have radar , Not sure of what it was I rang stop engine and watched because there should not be anything in this position ,After about 15 ninutes watching it suddenly took off across my bow going east at about 12knots ,I contacted glasgow harbour to report a submarine playing about without correct nav lights on because it was verry dangerous,,The next morning in glasgow docks I had a visit from the board of trade to get a statement .
Alternatively, the Royal Navy could have been very embarrassed publicly, but just imagine if there was monitoring in the Clyde prior to this incident, and the Royal Navy sat there and just listened to the sounds of the reactors, and the general noise of a Soviet submarine lying still.
I was a MT stationed aboard the USS Hunley in Holy Loch from 6-'64 thru 8-'66. In '65 I went on a shakedown cruise aboard one of our missile subs just for the experience. We left Holy Loch at dark and about three hours later nearly collided with a Russian trawler which was obviously their goal as they were sitting in the channel with no lights. We only avoided the collision by about 20-30 feet. In the 60's it was common for the Russian navy to attempt a collision with US Navy ships. I suppose they were willing to sacrifice a trawler in an attempt to take a missile sub out of service - at least for a while.
Thanks for such an informative story…..
I was stationed at Holy Loch for 7+ years,and seen a lot of “strange “ things!!
So the Russians had sneaky boats who would have thought 🤣
My father, who was the Sheriff at Dunoon, (a judge in Scotland) on one occasion he sat over a closed trial when MI5 had caught a ring of 'observers' who were involved in CND. During the trial MI5 proved that they were feeding intelligence to the USSR. The Usefulldiots were remanded in custody pending trial in the High Court in Edinburgh.
Much of the court business was dealing with drunken US Sailors on shore, there were also quite a lot of prostitutes who would come down to Dunoon from Glasgow. On one occasion a group of Glasgwegian prostitutes pointed out to the police, a young woman who had traveled to Dunoon for 'business' she stood out because she had a well spoken English accent. She was arrested and again appeared in a closed court. Turned out she was a radicalised student who had been told by her handler to honeytrap an American sailor. She was remanded in custody
I'd never heard of this, and I used to sail at a club straight across the Clyde from the likely point of collision. If it had been summer there could have been dozens of yachts around.
Fascinating stuff, thanks for posting it!
Scares the hell out of me to think of enjoying the water on a summer day, not knowing these things are lurking beneath you 👻
Comparing Greenock with Murmansk is a little unkind to Murmansk
Begs the question - what procedures/resources are in place to avoid a repeat of this incident?
I find it interesting that your father was from Greenock. My wife's grandparents integrated to the US from Greenock. I met her in the US in1968. I enlisted in the Navy in Dec '68.. After US Navy boot camp and A school I went to the US Canopus. She was in the yards. When we finished we went to Scotland. This incident happened not long after I left Scotland. I was an EN and made many trips between the ship and Greenock. My wife's family tree goes way back to the Duffs, Fraser, Griffin's and others. They were weavers.
I should add after reading below that I may have met some of these guys. I often did crew changes. We'd go to Greenock and pick up their baggage with a Box L or LCM.
Sailed out of Holy Loch many times in the Cold Waters game, nice to see the real deal and see they got a lot of the details right.
Another great episode👏👏. Very interesting and cokd war chilling stuff. I wished this video was 2 hours! Thx for the great work you do. Greetings from Denmark.
Great story very well presented. I love the graphics and on-location shots
Thanks for the video, Andy!
Fantastically done video - nice one, Andy.
I was a sub sailor and then a sub tender sailor in the early half of the 80s in Holy Loch. I never heard this story. Thanks for sharing.
Nowadays, that area is regularly fished by 3 red fishing boats. I wonder if they’re only looking for fish……
The American cynicism about the Wilson government was fairly well founded. John Stonehouse, Wilson’s minister of posts and telecommunications, was apparently a Czechoslovak intelligence officer
Cobblers
just another of distressing events in cold war US-UK relationship since the cambridge 5.
Excellent video Mr McLoone.
What's your background? Military/intelligence and/or media?
I would have to disagree with the notion the Soviet Victor had any idea of the approaching US SSBN.
Put yourself in place of the Victor's Commander. You are looking to surveil another submarine. 1) the Soviet always had trouble tracking US boomer while staying undetected. This is the main reason this Victor wanted to start following before the boomer got to open water.
2) if you have any idea it is coming you get out of the way. Which they did not do.
It seems likely that the Victor had no clue the boomer was close.
Additionally, the US crew may not have had the habit of keenly listening for Soviets vessels while still in the loch.
Any comment Dennis?
I though the Clyde flowed into the North Atlantic ? That aside, I've lived in Greenock since Nov 22 after moving up from Cheshire, and I go down to Battery Park on a regular basis which is directly below you in the hill side shot on Lyle Hill. I've seen a few Trident Subs coming from Faslane and it's scary to know that these are laden with live nukes on board. Great video all the same and extremely informative 👍👍
We've got a caravan at Cloch we see the all the time when we're up there. I'd Imagine the Russians were just popping to Primark in the Oak mall.
Very interesting Andy. Love your Cold War stuff. I served as a Poodle Pusher in the RAFP 80 to 86 so it intrigues me. I take yourself as a Pongo will know what a Poodle Pusher was. Forces banter…the best 😂