I spent some time at CERN, which is famous for the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). One of the very interesting things I learned while there was that when they built the first colliders, they had a huge problem with steel tools being left in the tunnels. When the extremely powerful magnets were turned on, these would go flying and cause lots of damage..... CERNs response was to start making non-magnetic tools out of titanium, but in order to do this, they had to figure out how to machine the stuff effectively, which was extremely uncommon at the time in the 1970s..... To do this, they wound up inventing new ways of machining titanium cheaply & effectively. And that is the reason we have relatively cheap titanium consumer goods like watches..... P.S. Sorry for the long comment....
Actually, the real reason was that the Soviets//Russians started selling their titanium to the West. Yup. America's cost of production was far too high for the consumer market. It took the Soviets to turn titanium metal into a semi-commodity. BTW, the traditional solution for non-magnetic tooling has ALWAYS been brass and bronze. You can buy an entire suite of such tools right now. They've always been in production. Their 'hang-up' is COST. Their chronic market: electricians and the oil & gas industry -- and chemical industry. And yes, titanium tools are now in mass production -- kind of. You can buy framing hammers in titanium. They just cost a pretty penny. Owners just love them to death -- but they are theft prone. (They swing differently than steel and their heads never deform under intense use... and they are light on the tool belt. Most framing is done via pneumatic nailers, so belt-weight matters a lot.)
it would have been much cheaper to retrain the people that worked there. When i was in high school we had a tool cage where we had to sign in and sign out tools.
Not sure you are aware of this, but there were only 2 or 3 places you could get industrial level titanium in the world, and at that time, USSR had something like 80% of the world's production (think South Africa was 2nd). The US were never able to get the high quality titanium in quantities, so that was never a real possibility. SR-71 used titanium, and that's a great story in itself, since the CIA created a bunch of shell companies to buy the titanium directly from the USSR (true story).
Very true story. The CIA commissioned Lockheed to design and build the A-12 Archangel ... the forerunner of the SR-71. To meet the required performance, Kelly Johnson determined the A-12 would require substantial amounts of Titanium. The CIA's response was, "NO problem" and set up the above mentioned 'shell companies to purchase it from the USSR. The A-12 was a single-seat aircraft that used a single large camera as its 'sensor'. The Air Force took over the project and Lockheed expanded the A-12 into the SR-71 with many more varied 'sensors' and an additional seat for the sensor systems operator. Many say the SR-71 is the highest flying and fastest 'air-breathing, manned aircraft' ever but the A-12 was faster and flew higher than the "family model" (Thanx, Frank Murray). ^v^ ruclips.net/video/MGdxpqqsHl8/видео.html&ab_channel=ChrisJohnson PS ... The electron beam welding process discussed in the video was pioneered by Grumman back in the late 60's and early 70's to assemble the titanium 'wing box' which held the massive hinges for the variable-sweep wing mechanism for the F-14 Tomcat. ^v^
@@taproom113 Thank you for posting the link to that lecture, that was really some awesome stuff. Frank Murray is not only a top pilot, but a damn good speaker, and a true entertainer. Really appreciate it!
In 1981 our company built a new primary titanium smelter (rutile sand ore to pure metal sponge). Metal price was ~5dollars/pound Ti sponge then. In 1982, price dropped dramatically to 2-3$/pound. We had heard that USSR had completed a Ti hull sub program, and were then flooding the world market with metal that was no longer needed for internal consumption, so price tanked. We struggled till ‘86 and shut down. Titanium is actually quite abundant in earths crust, but is an absolute bugger to produce and process as metal. Titanium parts are expensive because it is very difficult and expensive to work with. Triple arc melting to make ingots. All hot work is vacuum and inert gas. Wow, 40 years ago they “torpedoed” the price point, and “sunk” my company 😎 Great video, thanks!
He's referring to the common issue with stainless steel, where all tools and manufacturing stations must be only used for stainless steel in order to avoid contaminating the welds and the surface, which require re-polishing as soon as rust develops.
I was in the titanium trade in the early 80'. The Soviet Union had been supplying good percentage of titanium sponge (the raw mterian before processing into intermediates of final products), but reduced exports to a trickle, causing price spikes and much disruption. The excuse they gave at the time was that they were making titanium busts and statues of Lenin for all the towns and cities in Russia, but it was widely known that the missing Ti was going into submarines.
@@silverblank1139 Landing gear is to this day made from titanum, I hear. This will be interesting when the airplanes need to be renewed and sanctions are still on..
It was the investment they made into material science of titanium and production technologies. Still makes them money to this day, even right now Boeing buys Ti parts for planes despite the sanctions.
Titanium is very common. It's not used very often because of the difficulties in processing and producing it. Since the soviets pretty much used slave labor, they could afford to develop and manufacture using it more commonly. This can be seen in both their subs and their aircraft. The MI-24 for example is still one of the most common helicopter gunships. Meanwhile for the US, it's pretty much just the A-10 and other specialty craft like the blackbird. Traditional manufacturing (of final products) involves milling away material and titanium being so strong and hard will wear out milling bits extremely quickly. Heat is another huge issue because if titanium gets hot enough (typically through friction of milling or welding) the titanium can ignite and there's pretty much no way to put the fire out. This is also why casting titanium is typically very difficult since the melt point is very close to the ignition point and controlling the temperature can be very difficult. Now that 3d printing works with titanium; You can expect to see it used more commonly. It's still very expensive, but the more common the tech becomes, the cheaper it will get to obtain complex titanium parts.
@@Balanar1986 The soviet government paid workers in money that could only be used to buy goods from the government itself, economically speaking they were essentially slaves.
Fun fact about titanium in USSR, there is a monument in Moscow built fully from it, it is a 42-meter monument for Yuri Gagarin. Also, there is a 107- meter Monument to the Conquerors of Space built from it too, it was built earlier (67) but was only lined with titanium plates, when Gagarin was casted.
Do not worry about "not scripted". Your current way of presenting sounds "live" which in itself has a very interesting quality. I feel more like I sit in a room with you doing a presentation. This coupled with the excellent knowledge makes your videos really engaging.
Agree totally. Unscripted is dangerous if you don’t know what you’re talking about. But, when you do know what you’re talking about, it is actually more personal and engaging. That’s the case here.
(13:30) It's the opposite, Titanium is almost twice as flexible as steel, i.e. its Young Modulus (stiffness) is 110GPa whilst steel is 210GPa. Being of similar strength as the submarine grade steels, translates into the possibility of having less thickness for the same depth if you enjoy reducing safety factors, which combined with the relatively low Young Modulus, causes the hull to shrink at least twice as much as steel, which ultimately can cause anechoic tiles to completely detach in the long run (16:15). Titanium ultimate strength is also much closer to its yield strength (~10% vs ~20% for steel ), which means that the crush depth is much closer to the test depth.
Russians, as evidenced by their military and commercial products, are not known for precision engineering or optimization of design in the same way that has been demonstrated by the Americans. Nor have they shown concern for human life either. I really don’t think you can compare their Yasen class to the Virginia class or the British Astute class.
@@1Barsamian That´s the dumbest thing i read all day. Considering the russians were kicking America´s ass in the space race, and made a space shuttle that was a decade ahead of the american one, i really have to laugh at your comment. That arrogance and ignorance is just staggering, even more when found in the comment section of a video about Russia´s prowess in submarine building, which you surely did not watch. Btw, your "concern" for human life is also well known. School shootings, police shootings, wars, guns everywhere, no healthcare, etc etc. It´s hilarious reading an american complain about another country´s concern for "human life". You should be a comedian.
@@Biden_is_demented Exactly! Can you believe there are some Americans that think gulags weren't vacation resorts and health spas? Those fools can't even _begin_ to understand the soviets' deep, abiding reverence for human life. Tens of millions murdered my ass! More like tens of millions having orgasms 24/7.
"It's a real unique signature. No cavitation. No reactor noise. It doesn't even sound like screws! What the hell is it? I'll tell you what it's not. It's not one of ours!"
@@TomJohnsonREMAX "You've got over a hundred Naval vessels operating in the north Atlantic, right now. You're aircraft has dropped enough sonar buoys so that a man could walk, from Greenland to Iceland to Scotland, without getting his feet wet. So, shall we dispense with the bull?
@@TomJohnsonREMAX And, what looks like an exercise, could be a prelude to war! How can we tell the difference? Prudence demands that we deploy our ships to observe yours. It would be well for your government to consider that. Having your ships and ours. Your aircraft and ours, in such proximity, is inherently dangerous! Wars have begun that way, Mr. Ambassador.
Confession time. In the United States Navy, I served as an STG(Sonar Technician Guns/Surface). I finished my service as a Second Class Petty Officer. I served aboard a Destroyer. I've seen just about every movie involving submarines, surface ships, airplanes and anything else related to Naval Warfare atleast 10 times or more. I've memorized more lines than I'd care to admit. I've tracked a submarine for more than 2 sweeps(it's very difficult). I've been in swells just over 100 feet. And I've seen fog glow green like in the movie Joe Verses the Volcano. Just a few tidbits. Oh, and the C.I.W.S. is an order of magnitude louder than a 5 inch gun. That's ^ the 20mm Vulcan Gatlin Gun, for those that don't abla abbreviations.
@@Markbell73 Thanx for your service, shipmate. S-3 Viking SENSO operator here. Back in 1976, the intel relayed to us regarding the Alpha was stunning. We could track every other boat yard-to-yard but the Alpha was so fast, maneuverable and deep diving, she was a real challenge. ^v^
Your explanation of the complexities of argon gas shielding to wield TI is apparently why Boeing many years ago developed a process known as Super Plastic Forming. To this day there is little talk about it. It allows repeatability of smaller titanium structures, with far less complexity of TI welding. Another story-back in the mid 1980s I was flying in the USA and sitting next to me was an American guy who had been working on building a desalination plant for the Soviets. When he arrived in Moscow and began to assemble materials for the task he was dismayed to discover how incredibly rare PVC plastic pipe was in Russia. The stuff we take for granted for sprinkler lines, etc., was nearly impossible to find in the Soviet Union. As a result, he had to resort to using the much more plentiful Titanium for piping. Obviously, it complicated the production of the plant significantly. Where here in the USA you would simply glue a 90 degree elbow onto the end of a piece of Schedule 40, in Russia using titanium, they had to literally weld every connection,every joint, and every bend! Of course, at the end of the day you had a bombproof desalination plant, but it was much more complex than one that utilized Schedule 40! The things you couldn’t source in the USSR!
The truth is I don't think anyone should be downgrading Russia for not investigating the myriad uses of snot... Now it's everywhere, your house your car your office on the street blowing around simply everywhere,, and scientists still aren't sure exactly how this will affect the biosphere... Landfills are filled with construction debris containing tons of this stuff,, with no end in sight and basically no recycling plans at all, because if there's one thing they've learned about snot, it's cheap enough to just throw away and make some new stuff...
Что делали в СССР с металлами и частности с титаном как и сейчас в России этому парню показалось бы фантастикой просто многое не поступает в гражданское производство ,а тот же Боинг закупает в России для себя детали.
И второе парню который летел с вами просто не сказали что в СССР производились трубы ПВХ . Просто если ты не видел и не знаешь это не значит что этого нет.
The titanium boats also had a lifetime limit on the number of dive/surface cycles as titanium work hardens and becomes brittle as it is cycled. As an aside, Alfas were not particularly quiet. We tracked one for a short period in the early 90's.
Uhm Titanium is well known for not being corrosion resistant and it's resistant to metal fatigue. Unlike Aluminium which whole corosion resistant is not great in the fatigue department. Sound insulation has little to do with the material used in the hull. I don't understand why go through the trouble of handling titanium in Submarines though. The higher strength to weight ratio isn't as valueable in a submarine vs an airplane. Nor the heat resistant capabilities.
The Alpha, in fact, was a manned torpedo of the enormous size for suicidal attacks in WW3 which was capable to lunch its own supercavitating torpedoes.
Piston rods are made out of tytanium... so that limit that you are talking here about would be exhausted in how many centuries of constant use? "We tracked one for a short period in the early 90's." you tracked one and for a shor period of time... wow Super noisy then... 🤣
@@1barnet1 _"The higher strength to weight ratio isn't as valueable in a submarine vs an airplane."_ You don't think a sub that can go 50% deeper than a steel sub of the same size is valuable? How about a sub 50% larger than a steel sub of the same weight? How about a same size sub, 25% lighter, and 25 % faster? Now, toss in that none of them are detectable by magnetics. Still not valuable?
One note on titanium. Russia has huge titanium reserves. During the cold War and the embargo raw materials that could be produced internally were preferred. Another example is the use of titanium in body armour and helmets for soldiers and I believe, but not certain, on armoured vehicles.
The USA wanted titanium to build high tech helicopters during the Cold War to compete with the high tech helicopters the Russians had.To avoid the Russians getting suspicious the US made up several fictitious companies around the world that bought small amounts of titanium over time and the Russians never caught on
Russia is the second largest producer after China. The Soviet Union was the largest but as Ukraine and Kazakhstan are separate nations now leaving Russia in second place.
It seems that story about titanium monuments in USSR was interesting for some people, so here is another one, big part of my relatives are from Severodvinsk, a small town near Archangelsk, it Is nothing special about it, except Zvezdochka shipyard which was producing and repair submarines and titanium ones also. During the collapse of the USSR in 90th there were no commissions from the government and the whole town's existence was on the edge, cause it was so dependent on these shipyards, but there was titanium and technologies, so they started to produce titanium tableware and shovels to survive.
I read this in Janes back in the early 90’s and told my friend that was in a doctorate program for metallurgy. His jaw hit the floor. Interestingly he was doing his dissertation on the alloy of the welding rods used in WWII submarines that they had lost the “recipe” to. The US actually bought the titanium to build A12’s and SR71’s from the Soviet Union under the guise that the material was being used to make pizza ovens.
I doubt that this pizza over excuse was believed. Production of Ti sponge is expensive, nd the conversion from sponge to intermediates was also tricky and expensive.
I read a book a few years ago written in 1980 in the USSR, translated into English albeit poorly. It was about the development of manufacturing technology and the development of non ferrous metals. Very cool, they were really putting a lot of effort into developing metal alloys particularly non ferrous alloys such as Ti And stainless steels. Thoriated magnesium was another area of research.
@@G31mR austenitic Stainless steel alloys are sometimes referred to as non-ferrous. Albeit a misnomer, term s used to classify most austenitic steel due to the different In characteristics, especially in workability and manufacturing processes. The typical ASME / ANSI text in the US doesn’t typically make such designation.
@@jenpsakiscousin4589 ..not doubting your veracity but,, what the hell would they use thoriated magnesium for? Increase the melting point,, make it harder or less reactive in air?
Thanks for this presentation. Many years ago a friend gifted me with a rectangular piece of titanium, roughly 10 inches by 4 inches, 2 inches thick. He obtained it from an intelligence agent who had been in Germany when the wall came down and the country was reunited. A soviet sub had been under repairs in East Germany but worked ceased on it the as the transition began. The Soviets were either unable or unwilling to retrieve their sub and she was cut up on the stocks. Pieces were collected by a number of agencies for evaluation and study and one of those pieces is now my prized paperweight.
Soviet nuclear subs were the only ones made of Ti, and they were all based in the Northern fleet, not in the Baltic. They would never be repaired in a East German shipyard because they had no expertise whatsoever in working on this material. This story is as fake as they get, your paperweight isn't a part of a sub
@@SgtMclupus Almost all nukes have circulation pumps. Keeping them running when the reactor is shut down is the main purpose of the APC, usually a diesel. It helps keep the core from going critical and melting its way out the bottom of the boat.
@Muhammad Ali It would be a pretty dumb idea to "catch up" with a submarine designed to kill you. They weren't made to be quiet, they were made to go fast and dive deep. The rationale was at the start of the war these things go full speed to the nearest target of opportunity (likely a carrier group) and let loose. Also note that the Mk.48 hadn't yet come into service until a few years after. That meant that essentially even if you knew it was there you had nothing that could effectively kill it.
I heard a story somewhere the Akula class is nicknamed the Walker class as it relied on secrets handed over by John Walker. Thanks for this video - I enjoyed the informal style and learned a lot.
Being non magnetic has been mentioned. But a related issue i have not seen mentioned is that titanium is significantly less conductive than steel. Thus induction sensors on the sea bottom have to be closer to the boat to sense it.
Most underrated RUclipsr in the world. Sir, you are a legend. I’m going to share your vids with everyone on Facebook. My goodness you deserve far far more recognition and views and everything for you great work. God bless you for helping us understand submarines and ships. God bless you Sir. Much respect from Australia 🇦🇺
Even unscripted the quality is amazing because one can tell that you are an expert, this channel to me is now the BEST channel about submarines with very good and concrete information. Also, I'm hopping to receive my Covert Shores copy in a couple of weeks!
Got introduced to your video and channel from watching Aaron on "Sub Brief". My background is similar to his. I was a surface ST for 20 years. 79-99. Stationed out of Pearl both sea and shore, because...Hawaii, I started out as a 26CX tech, then went to MK114 school, did time as an underway evaluator/trainer and classroom instructor, and finished my career as a master level acoustic analyst and Surface Ship Undersea Warfare Specialist. So, when I say that these videos are fantastic and you do a great job with them, you know where that sentiment is coming from. This stuff kind of gets in your blood.
I was a US submariner, the information we got was the titanium would get brittle when compressed, this meant they could go really deep, once, then their crush depth would be recalculated every time they went deep. To be clear, I was only told this, I never read it anywhere, but seemed to be a widespread story, so we all believed it.
I'm an engineering school dropout, so not an actual engineer, but some of the innovations I see in Soviet submarines is extremely impressive from an engineers POV. The lengths they went to in order to one-up the USA are truly incredible, especially having some knowledge of the process that must've been involved in welding an all-titanium hull.
I mean they have some of the largest titanium reserves in the world. They would have to be genuinely fucking dumb to not be able to make use of it lmfao. Its almost funny, because every engineering feat these soviets have done, is all for image, and not for their starving population lmfao
Yeah … don’t sell yourself short. Your narration is clear, paced very well, concise and informative. As another comment below, it feels as if you’re presenting to me, rather than narrating from a script. Most interesting video. Matt Lee
I've never welded titanium, but my understanding is that the joint and entire HAZ (heat affected zone) must be completely shielded from oxygen on both sides. Either argon or helium can be used as shielding gas. I know that the preferred method of welding relatively small items is in an enclosed "glove box." During the video I was trying to imagine how a titanium something as large as a submarine might be welded. Two possibilities come to mind. The first is to flush the entire workspace with shielding gas. Weldors, fitters, etc., would have to have some sort of closed circuit breathing system. The second is to seal joints from behind, forming ducts for back flushing with gas. A large amount of gas would also be required for shielding the front side. There is also the possibility that the Soviets had developed additional means of shielding the HAZ subsequent to its initial cooling. Either of these methods I've concocted would be very expensive, and asphyxiation risks would be inherent in either case. Would a Soviet titanium submarine builder please chime in?
Saw a documentary once about it. They use airlocks, and huge pressurized chambers where the workers go inside in a type of astronaut suit. The atmosphere inside is completely devoid of oxygen, and special protocols are used to insure the safety of the workers. Being a welder myself, i can´t fathom the difficulty of working in such an environment.
@@Biden_is_demented That's interesting! Sounds like my initial idea was on the right track. It did strike me how it would take the danger and difficulty of shipbuilding and raise it to a completely different level. In the USSR that probably meant those welders got to eat sausage. Would love to see that documentary!
Thats what gas SHIELD welding is.... Y'all acting like the fitters and welders gave a hoot that it was titanium. Like welding it was something special.
@@peeonu25 Titanium requires much better shielding gas protection than steel, aluminum, or even stainless steel. This may not be a big deal if you're welding small titanium widgets in a glovebox enclosure. If, however, you have to do the same thing on the scale of a 150 foot submarine, let your imagination take you where your knowledge cannot.
@@peeonu25 "Like welding it was something special." It is something special, when you stand in a hangar size airlock chamber, dressed like you´re going to the moon, and surrounded by sharp metal pieces that can slice open your suit and kill you. The act itself of welding isn´t what is special. It´s the fact that you have to keep your wits about you and a sharp eye on your surroundings, because you are breathing a highly enriched oxygen mix, that doesn´t particularly likes open flames, and there is just a thin barrier between you and a painful death. If it were as easy as you make it out to be, the americans would be doing it too. The fact that they aren´t should tell you just how hard it is.
I think I remember reading that Titanium has much greater rates of expansion and contraction due to temperature than steel does, hence the way SR-71's leaked badly (but within spec) while on the ground. This would explain the anechoic tile adhesive problem and probably explains the propeller issue as well. I'm speculating that the propeller and shaft also have to be titanium lest the shaft leak at the hull penetration and the propeller loosen or overtighten if it was composed of other material.
@@uegvdczuVF Would it be because of the issues with dissimilar metals being more corrosive in sea water? I am thinking of the issues with the littoral water ships of the USN. On an aside about the SR-71. The titanium used to build the aircraft was procured by the CIA from the USSR.
@@altergreenhorn Saltwater is getting very corrosive above ca 30 C. Ti suffers from hydrogen embrittelment. There are various ti alloys. Some are machinable. The oxydation layer is very hard. Ti cannot be forge strenghtened and hardened. Own a hard used Ti diving knife for 15 years. Not the sharpest blade. Almost unmarked, very light
Have to admit, every since I laid eyes on the Alfa, I thought it was the smoothest looking submarine ever. Just looks beautiful. And maybe Tom Clancy hyped it up a tiny bit.
Really interesting subject. Great to get some details on the deep diving submarines. Would love to have heard of estimated, or "guestimated" operating depths of those really deep diving submarines - like with the Losharik. Even ranges or approximations. Nice video.
Very good presentation. One property of titanium is that most commercial alloys and tempers exhibit brittle fracture modes under high strain rates. This is of primary concern regarding underwater explosion attack (UNDEX). Next to our emphasis on silent operation US places emphasis on UNDEX resistance and materials used in the hull integrity boundary are typically ductile with a high degree of toughness.
Interesting, having spent 40 years in the UK Titanium industry and seen so many technical advances, and involved in so many different projects, products, alloys and materials.
"... those are still in service and probably providing good service to your internet cables" Dry English humor is definitely a thing and it's a good thing
Excellent presentation. I felt as though I was listening to a college level lecture or advanced degree thesis on Soviet era weapons and how they differ from the west. Quite fascinating indeed. Thank you. I am now a subscriber.
Superb video. Not only because of the content but, because of your stating that the it was unscripted, I loved the commentary. A 'down-to-earth' and clearly knowledgeable presenter that - for me? - made this, the superb video it is. Might I suggest you continue in this vein please??
I think it's interesting that your icon (which I thought was something whimsical of your own design) was actually a Sierra-class sub. A really nice video, as usual. Thanks!
Very true. The former USSR was the leading producer of titanium in there world. May still be for all I know. I remember the ALFA class very well from the 1980's. That submarine really shook up the US Navy submarine force. So much that the Gould Corporation was tasked with producing the MK48 Advanced Capability (ADCAP) torpedo. From what I'm remembering, Gould built the MK48.
Yup, they did probably shock the USN as they were apparently heard from across the Atlantic! VERY fast....VERY VERY noisy boats. Highly automated with limited radioactive shielding. A very "hot" place to work, I imagine.
@@jb678901 Yep JB, seems I remember it. 40+ years later. I seem to recall a TM telling me a standard MK48 had a top speed of 55 knots. And an Alpha could outrun it. That's a FAST submarine! I'm sure it was a hotbed of radiation, as well. We didn't have to shield our secrets from Russia. They were ADVERTISED in the magazines!!!!! Full page ads. The UGC-136AX teleprinter.....full page ad. The MK48ADCAP.....full page ad. This was early 80's. Wow. I do remember that ALFA really stood Naval Intelligence for Undersea Warfare on their heads.🤣
Former submarine sailor on multiple hulls for MANY years - it's NOT that the west couldn't do it (create a titanium hulled submarine) it's that the Soviet Union had the LARGEST reserves of titanium in the world. The thing is, titanium is stronger and lighter, but it also becomes quite brittle when exposed to excessive expansion & contraction. Once those Soviet submarines made a deep dive, their maximum "test-depth" was adjusted as they could no longer reach that depth safely ever again due to micro-fissures in the titanium. How much expansion & contraction is a submarine subjected to? We took a string and made it taught at roughly shoulder height on the surface from frame to frame then later that day when we made a deep dive that same string was nearly touching the deck. That picture of the Alfa Class with the square patches exposing the underlying metal was DUE to that same type of expansion & contraction.
Titanium is actually very common in the Earth's crust, every country has large reserves. The difference was that Soviet metallurgy was much better than what was used in the West, so they could produce alloy better
Titanium is everywhere. The commies just decided to build the infrastructure necessary to efficiently extract, process, and turn it into useful and "affordable" products.
@@rollercoasterintogiantdomo incorrect. Look it up and list it by country. Funny thing is, since the "Soviet Union" broke up, they NO LONGER have the huge reserves of Titanium and sources they once had. That is one of the things Putin wants to reacquire is the previous Soviet mineral & metals capacity they once had. China now leads. By a LARGE margin, followed by Australia. Even if Titanium is below the earths crust in many locations it is neither feasible nor financially viable to mine for it due to the necessary mining practices to acquire the raw material. Those countries (China) who are NOT concerned about the environment TAKE those chances. This, and other similar practices are why China is one of THE most polluted countries, by FAR, in the world!
They were used in few accidents. The case when people died in it was due to being not buckled up, if it is not loaded fully, it travels to surface with some acceleration, and pops out of water, following back to water surface. If you are inside it, not buckled up, you would hit ceiling and than floor consecutively. This is what happened on Komsomolets.
Maybe someone already pointed this out, but submarines have an inner hull (1 or more) and an outer hull, and only the inner hull(s), or "pressure hull," is required to withstand sea pressure as the submarine submerges. The outer hull is, mainly, a hydrodynamic fairing or superstructure designed to allow the submarine to travel through the water efficiently. If the purpose of titanium were to, in part, allow the submarine to withstand greater sea pressure and, thus, achieve deeper depths, then that would apply only to the pressure hull. The outer hull pressure would equalize and would not subject the outer hull to compressive forces. This would obviate the need to make the outer hull out of (expensive) titanium. Maybe the titanium vs steel weight argument has some validity, but I have my doubts. With all that in mind, the discussions, photos and diagrams given ignore the inner-outer hull issue and imply that there is just one hull and that it is made of titanium, even pointing out where peeling paint shows shiny titanium and proposing that anechoic tiles fall of because the hull is titanium. Maybe I'll have to eat my words, but I don't believe those outer hulls are titanium. If they are, it's no wonder the USSR went belly up.
You know for sure the Soviets had a major vodka abuse problem when you see that they armed their first titanium sub with "anti-sip" cruise missiles. 4:41
My understanding is that Titanium isn’t stronger than steel, it is significantly lighter and is equivalent to mild steel; so Medieval plate armor. But it’s lighter and it doesn’t rust. However it’s extremely hard and expensive to process and form
It's stronger in some ways, it is very resistant to bending and flexing so instead of warping like steel when it hit it's fatigue point it simply Shatters like glass. And yes it is very hard to process because it has to be melted in non-reactive gas environment because in the presence of oxygen when it hits the melting point it will burn instead of liquifying.
"pure" titanium (grade 1 to 4) is comparable to middle quality steel but with less density than aluminium. More it is better than stainless steel against corrosion. In aero/racing, alloy of titanium are used mainly, there you'll find more "magical" stuff.
I grew up on a small island called "Bornholm" in the Baltic sea, in the 1980's (I was born in 1974), and I remember all the rumours about Soviet submarines in the area. Some were even spotted up along the Swedish coast, which was a big scandal. I guess it was not just rumours, when it all came down to it.
19:25 "they're using titanium to build a very light submarine which would have a lot of volume but not a lot of displacement" The volume of the sub determines its displacement, so how does that work?
Really good video.. and I do not mind your delivery style/method at all. Its more like a conversation and if it means more content from you, all good! The quality of the comments shows the type of audience you have here. Some really good and insightful views/observations here. My personal experience with Ti is in the building of a custom AlV6 Ti receiver for a high performance rifle. In reading the comments I have discovered why my steel bolt seems to discolour.. it is reacting to the Ti! Thanks for the information! The Ti is a VERY difficult material to machine. It blunts machining tools virtually immediately. You need to machine it at different feeds and speeds and use a different cooling liquid. The swarf/chips from the machining can ignite and set fire to your shop if you are not careful. For us it is a fantastic material for rifles as the receiver can be made larger, thus stiffer, for less mass. But you REALLY struggle to hand finish trigger guards and other small components with files and abrasives. Almost impossible, whereas all the steel and stainless parts shape and finish very easily by hand. Ti is very very tough to work. Ti feels completely different to touch, I don't know if I am imagining it, but it feels good to touch, don't quite know how to describe it. It FEELs better to touch than steel.. almost like the skin or body responds to it some how?? Keep up the good work, excellent video and knowledge.
The Russian built the most intriguing subs, considering these subs were built in the 70s and 80s is a great technical feet. The papa is a animal of sub considering it was built at the same time as the skip jack's.
I seem to remember from university chemical courses that titanium metal was produced industrially by the reaction between titanium chloride and metallic sodium. Of course this required a batch process rather than a continuous one. This might account (at least in part) for the expense of the titanium metal.
Titanium is also brittle compared to steel. I was told this by a former USN sub-mariner. Obviously, this is anecdotal. But I asked him how we would fare in fights against USSR subs and he quoted that if we hit them, their subs would tend to break instead of bend like steel has the capacity to. You kind of mentioned this propensity in your video. Nice vid
@@piotrd.4850 titanium is initally more flexible though... A navy commenter here mentioned though that repeated cycling of high and low pressure from diving/surfacing would tend to "work" the titanium, and that would make it brittle.
I thoroughly enjoyed this presentation; very informative and the facts were clearly articulated. Someone like myself, who knows very little about boats was captivated; subscribed. Thank you.
Argon and Argon mixtures have been standard in welding for a long time. Also, the GDR made massive leaps in Ship welding technology due to their high Fishing vessel output in the 60s and 70s. And MAG Welding is a soviet invention Welding should always be done on clean surfaces, no matter what material you use. And it is easier to set up a work area just for one alloy as it is more your grinding tools swap between different alloys, which causes problems.
I took a CIA history honors course at UMBC and my professor was the one that helped identify titanium as the building material. He was stationed in Leningrad and spied around the Admiralty yard. He collected a piece of scrap that fell off a truck outside the gate and sent a sample back to the US in a diplo pouch. That’s how we found out they were using titanium.
Yes, so your professor was CDR Bill Green? Both stories are true, I chose the scrapyard one as it had the serial number. See this excellent book (well worth buying!) See books.google.ch/books?id=p8WkkBIeKR4C&pg=PT351&lpg=PT351&dq=scrap+titanium+pennsylvania+alfa+submarine
You explain things very well. You have a great voice. Very informative. Thank you. Excellent find on RUclips. Happy holidays and a happy new year to all. Cheers! From Atlanta Georgia.
Regarding the titanium screw: My bike has a Campagnolo Super Record crankset that is left hand threaded. The Potenza crankset I replaced it with is steel and right hand threaded. The reason for this different threaded business is to avoid mixing metals. Galvanic corrosion (which can be mitigated on a bike... Not sure on a sub) is pretty serious and you could end up with a screw that is welded solid and won't move anymore. Especially with the pressures and torques that are being applied for a single tour. 80 days of constant work will take a toll.
worst in sea water, two different metals with salty water in between and you have a "battery", the less noble corrodes... for example titanium / stainless the latter corrodes.
Screw is probably Ti, because of galvanic corrosion. If they had a bronze screw, it would have caused the hull to corrode over time rather than a smaller screw.
Titanium is one of the most noble metals, it wil galvanically corrode steel or bronze. Still, weird they went with a Ti screw, instead of isolating. There's a interesting engineering story here !
Can a bronze screw withstand the higher pressures of the deeper dives, or could the fear of screw failure in deeper depths of the Ti-boats be the reason for the titanium screw?
I'll just say. It is nearly always necessary to use gas like argon for welding. The only way you can weld properly whiteout gas is if you stick weld. And the sticks you stick weld with is covered in flux which then does the same job as gas.
Hi again! Love the video, thank you once again. I'm reposting my question from another video of yours in hopes that it may be noticed :P "Unrelated question, I've always been fascinated by the Russian approach to automation on submarines, specifically torpedo auto-loading systems. Would love to hear/see more around this, perhaps in a future video?"
I'm qualified on 2 fast attack submarines when I served during the Cold War, they had lots of issues with these. Yes the Alpha were able to dive deeper, but...Titanium after it went under pressure several times it developed cracks due to stress, so they lost a few due to that.
@@OleDiaBole Yeah. If they knew enough about titanium to be able to build boats with the stuff, that makes me pretty sceptical of this "They lost a few boats because they didn't know about metal fatigue" claim.
@@gustaveliasson5395 I served on the USS Memphis SSN 691 from '79 - '83 which was during the time Iran took the hostages, USSR invaded Afghanistan and we went around the world. I got out for a short time but came back into the Navy where I served on the USS Tautog SSN 639 out of Pearl Harbor aka the USS "Tagout" nickname due to everything was old and breaking lol. We ended up going into a major shipyard overhaul in Bremerton WA dur to a warped torpedo tube. There's alot I can't say, but there's some basics. How I will say, the Memphis main induction head valve was screwed up and leaking at one point so we did a transit to Diago Garcia for repairs, good enough young man? lol.
@H I Sutton brilliant episode thank you for the work you've put into it. I have wondered much about the "research" sub Losharik since I first heard about the incident July 1, 2019. You see, my son serves as a submariner stationed in San Diego CA. In the US the first reports of the incident were that a Russian submarine had engaged, or was engaged by, a USN submarine, resulting in multiple fatalities. Instantly I went into panic mode trying to get in contact with my son. I heard nothing from him for 6 months, finally receiving a message from him wishing me Merry Christmas. By that time I was barely running on fumes from the stress of not knowing, so finally I was able to breath again. I wonder if a more in depth look into the Losharik tragedy and the subsequent reports/Internet chatter would be appealing to your viewers. I for one would certainly be very interested.
Was it only the skin that was titanium or all of the structural members? If it had steel components internally would those not have created a magnetic signature of the whole boat?
@@travelinman70 That's a straight face lie. You could go to Wikipedia and get it right. The boat is entirely titanium. They even keep steel trash like food cans in plastic bags because of the risk of galvanic corrosion between the two metals.
I don’t know if this has already been addressed But I just wanted to touch on the titanium screw. I have been in the medical device world for 10 years. All implantable plates and screws are made of either titanium or stainless steel, I have lots of experience working with both metals. In a biologic environment (which an ocean can example of) if there is mixing of metal implants, like a stainless screw going into a titanium plate, it will indeed cause Degradation of the metal at the interface. If you decide to go with titanium, every metal component of that submarine or device, must have titanium to titanium interface. Every screw, every bolt, and every component that’s touching that hull must also be titanium.
Nice presentation. I am aware that the Soviets developed ceramic coatings for their subs, which made them fast . . . well faster than we could initially account for. Would be interesting to have a presentation on this technology in an of itself. One could even touch on some of the spin-off technologies such as oil that are impregnated with ceramic to increase the wear properties of engines/equipment. . .
My understanding is that the Sierras were built at a different shipyard to the Alfas despite the fact that titanium construction facilities already existed, so the Soviets ended up having to build a third titanium welding facility (titanium cannot be welded in oxygen atmospheres because that creates oxides that severely weaken the alloy, so they must be welded in an inert gas (argon) atmosphere). I'm not entirely sure why that was the case.
“If the west couldn’t do it why would the russians?” Didn’t russia have better availability to Titanium and thus have more readily resources to experimental/mess arround/train/practice with?
No, not really. They just saw that titanium could be hella useful if they figured out how to produce and work it in large quantities, and so they threw enough scientists at the problem to make it happen.
I worked in subs, interesting seeing the unclass stats ans figures. The alpha is a legendary submarine, but quite small and I feel, therefore, not as well armed as it may need to be. I spent some quality time focusing on the Alpha.
Apparently titanium is incredibly hard to mould into a submarine. Owing to its low malleability, low magnetic steel is a no-brainer. that being said, in the former Soviet states, alot of cutlery,torches and other souvenirs are made of titanium 😂 Great videos as always.
@@mirandela777 which is surprising that they proceed to build Mig-25 with mostly stainless steel rather than titanium as their high speed interceptor for the likes of SR-71. (though the mostly likely intended target is the also stainless steel built XB-70.)
@@WangGanChang The Soviets were more than capable of producing a "one for one" better aircraft than the Mig-25 when using materials like aluminium and titanium alloys. The issue was one of cost, they would rather have an aircraft they could mass-produce for cheap. And that meant steel.
@@WangGanChang The MiG-25 had to be HEAVY. At Mach-3, the plane has to fly level, so the plane must be heavy to counteract the huge lifting force on the wings. If the plane were lighter it would start to climb uncontrollably like a rocket.
They found a freaking piece of scrap metal which led to the exact sub. How is that not shocking?😂 its not shocking the soviets were selling off stuff like that unknowingly giving away secrets.
The fastest ever submarine - K-162 (later renamed into K-222) of the Project 661 Anchar - was commissioned in 1969. In December 1970, it set a world record that remains unbroken to this day. At the depth of 100 meters K-162 managed to reach a speed of 82.8 km/h The nuclear reactor powering the sub was using about 97% of its capacity at the time, so theoretically it could have gone even faster.
Truth be told, there have been other very fast nuke boats that are not Russian. However, on US boats the screw (or propulsor) is optimized to avoid cavitation; sacrificing highest possible top speed. It's a fair trade-off, imho, as torpedoes will always be faster...and dive deeper (for that matter) than any boat's operational envelope.
@@jb678901 When K-162 was built there weren't many torpedos that could go much faster from what I understand and that kind of speed gives a much better opportunity to outrun a torpedo even if it's faster than the sub.
@@trolleriffic Prior to 1972, I would agree that its submerged speed was an advantage. However, with the entry in service of more capable passive/active torpedoes [e.g. Mk48 mod 1 (~1972)] this advantage was effectively neutralized. At the time of the K-162, passive detection ranges were far greater as the Soviet boats were very noisy and their spying hadn't yet gathered the Walker and Toshiba-Kongsberg intel, allowing for the fast western torpedoes to be close enough that the K-162's speed would be insufficient to outpace a higher speed passive/active torpedo. Later on, improvements in sound isolation and quieting were prioritized over speed by the Soviets with the likes to Victor (III), Akula, Sierra, Delta IV, Typhoon, Oscar (II).
Titanium, which is chemically closely related to aluminum and zirconium, is highly reactive to oxygen. A brief exposure to oxygen will quickly form a molecular layer of titanium oxide. That is why they have to use inert gases when welding. It asks as a protective blanket to keep out the oxygen. Titanium alloys are stronger by weight than steel alloys, but not stronger by volume. That is why it "dents" easier.
Actually it's very good at resisting stresses, so it won't bend like steel but once it hit's it's fatigue point instead of bending like steel it will simply shatter... But also titanium will burn when heated to melting point because it oxidizes so quickly which is why it has to be welded or smelted in a non-reactive gas environment.
@@SilvaDreams Titanium has a bigger plastic and elastic range than steel. That was one of teh reason. Titanium can under go superplasticity at high temps, which steel cannot. Fatigue failure is different from simple stress. When a metal is worked frequently, it is subject to fatigue cracking and brittle failure. Most steel has some fatigue threshold. As long as the stresses are below a certain level, it doe snot undergo fatigue regardless of the number of stress cycles it undergoes. Most titanium alloys, like is cousin aluminum, does not have a fatigue theeshold. Any stress adds to its fatigue. I had research why aluminum had no fatigue threshold while steel does for a college class back in the day.
I was working on a research project in my undergrad days in 1975 that was adjacent to the sub business (that's all I can say about that) and we were aware back then of the existence of Russian titanium subs. Soviet quality control being what it was, I'd never want to go out in one. Titanium is difficult to weld in small quantities/sizes defect-free. Building a defect-free titanium sub in a shipyard environment is extremely, extremely difficult. Got to wonder how many of these were lost and the Soviet Union kept it a secret?
I think Russia has started making titanium parts for the Brompton type, folding bikes, which has only been able to be bought from the east, where they also make frames from titanium, and with room for disc brakes on a Brompton type bike.
The Sierra I is also my favorite submarine all the way since I saw it in the Red Storm Rising computer game manual from 1988. Thanks for all of these interesting videos.
Never underestimate the russians ability to outthink the problem. I'm a steel worker, we use argon to weld our steel as well. The thing is the russians have a abundance of titanium, the rest of the world doesn't. So for them it's cheaper to use titanium as it's sourced locally where as for us it's imported which is expensive. Fascinating video.
They aren't the only place on the globe that mines it. In fact I'm pretty sure there are American deposits. The ore isn't a bottleneck here, know-how and technology is
I spent some time at CERN, which is famous for the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). One of the very interesting things I learned while there was that when they built the first colliders, they had a huge problem with steel tools being left in the tunnels. When the extremely powerful magnets were turned on, these would go flying and cause lots of damage..... CERNs response was to start making non-magnetic tools out of titanium, but in order to do this, they had to figure out how to machine the stuff effectively, which was extremely uncommon at the time in the 1970s..... To do this, they wound up inventing new ways of machining titanium cheaply & effectively. And that is the reason we have relatively cheap titanium consumer goods like watches.....
P.S. Sorry for the long comment....
Your comment is not too long, no need to apologize.
long man good
That's interesting! Thanks for sharing
Actually, the real reason was that the Soviets//Russians started selling their titanium to the West. Yup. America's cost of production was far too high for the consumer market. It took the Soviets to turn titanium metal into a semi-commodity.
BTW, the traditional solution for non-magnetic tooling has ALWAYS been brass and bronze. You can buy an entire suite of such tools right now. They've always been in production. Their 'hang-up' is COST.
Their chronic market: electricians and the oil & gas industry -- and chemical industry.
And yes, titanium tools are now in mass production -- kind of. You can buy framing hammers in titanium. They just cost a pretty penny. Owners just love them to death -- but they are theft prone.
(They swing differently than steel and their heads never deform under intense use... and they are light on the tool belt. Most framing is done via pneumatic nailers, so belt-weight matters a lot.)
it would have been much cheaper to retrain the people that worked there. When i was in high school we had a tool cage where we had to sign in and sign out tools.
Not sure you are aware of this, but there were only 2 or 3 places you could get industrial level titanium in the world, and at that time, USSR had something like 80% of the world's production (think South Africa was 2nd). The US were never able to get the high quality titanium in quantities, so that was never a real possibility. SR-71 used titanium, and that's a great story in itself, since the CIA created a bunch of shell companies to buy the titanium directly from the USSR (true story).
Yup, russia’s resource availability gave it more room to experiment/mess arround/train and practice with it.
Very true story. The CIA commissioned Lockheed to design and build the A-12 Archangel ... the forerunner of the SR-71. To meet the required performance, Kelly Johnson determined the A-12 would require substantial amounts of Titanium. The CIA's response was, "NO problem" and set up the above mentioned 'shell companies to purchase it from the USSR. The A-12 was a single-seat aircraft that used a single large camera as its 'sensor'. The Air Force took over the project and Lockheed expanded the A-12 into the SR-71 with many more varied 'sensors' and an additional seat for the sensor systems operator. Many say the SR-71 is the highest flying and fastest 'air-breathing, manned aircraft' ever but the A-12 was faster and flew higher than the "family model" (Thanx, Frank Murray). ^v^ ruclips.net/video/MGdxpqqsHl8/видео.html&ab_channel=ChrisJohnson
PS ... The electron beam welding process discussed in the video was pioneered by Grumman back in the late 60's and early 70's to assemble the titanium 'wing box' which held the massive hinges for the variable-sweep wing mechanism for the F-14 Tomcat. ^v^
@@Typhyr ruclips.net/video/lCLH3rzO06U/видео.html
@@taproom113 Thank you for posting the link to that lecture, that was really some awesome stuff. Frank Murray is not only a top pilot, but a damn good speaker, and a true entertainer. Really appreciate it!
@@JeKramxel Pleasure. They don't make 'em better than Frank. Always thankful he and men like him are on our side ... ^v^
In 1981 our company built a new primary titanium smelter (rutile sand ore to pure metal sponge). Metal price was ~5dollars/pound Ti sponge then. In 1982, price dropped dramatically to 2-3$/pound. We had heard that USSR had completed a Ti hull sub program, and were then flooding the world market with metal that was no longer needed for internal consumption, so price tanked. We struggled till ‘86 and shut down.
Titanium is actually quite abundant in earths crust, but is an absolute bugger to produce and process as metal. Titanium parts are expensive because it is very difficult and expensive to work with. Triple arc melting to make ingots. All hot work is vacuum and inert gas.
Wow, 40 years ago they “torpedoed” the price point, and “sunk” my company 😎
Great video, thanks!
The whole Boeing company was supplied with titanium . They shot themselves in the foot .
Having welded at multiple shipyards, saying that "shipyards aren't generally seen as clean" is an understatement.
Having worked in many shipyards navy and civilian I can say they are not "clean" in the way he's talking about.
He's referring to the common issue with stainless steel, where all tools and manufacturing stations must be only used for stainless steel in order to avoid contaminating the welds and the surface, which require re-polishing as soon as rust develops.
@@NeuKrofta Yet, it's very common in shipyards that build yachts and high speed craft.
@@_John_P those are called boatyards chief
@@NeuKrofta Not in the UK and Germany.
I was in the titanium trade in the early 80'. The Soviet Union had been supplying good percentage of titanium sponge (the raw mterian before processing into intermediates of final products), but reduced exports to a trickle, causing price spikes and much disruption. The excuse they gave at the time was that they were making titanium busts and statues of Lenin for all the towns and cities in Russia, but it was widely known that the missing Ti was going into submarines.
And american planes apparently
@@silverblank1139 Landing gear is to this day made from titanum, I hear. This will be interesting when the airplanes need to be renewed and sanctions are still on..
И на SR-71 A-12 эпохи Архангелов.
Я ещё долго смеялся над тем что вы написали ,а именно про памятники из титана .
@@ЩанкинАлексей-и9дvas the faire
I think Russia has the biggest reserves of titanium in the world. So it’s a bit cheaper for them
It was the investment they made into material science of titanium and production technologies. Still makes them money to this day, even right now Boeing buys Ti parts for planes despite the sanctions.
Titanium is very common. It's not used very often because of the difficulties in processing and producing it. Since the soviets pretty much used slave labor, they could afford to develop and manufacture using it more commonly. This can be seen in both their subs and their aircraft. The MI-24 for example is still one of the most common helicopter gunships. Meanwhile for the US, it's pretty much just the A-10 and other specialty craft like the blackbird.
Traditional manufacturing (of final products) involves milling away material and titanium being so strong and hard will wear out milling bits extremely quickly. Heat is another huge issue because if titanium gets hot enough (typically through friction of milling or welding) the titanium can ignite and there's pretty much no way to put the fire out. This is also why casting titanium is typically very difficult since the melt point is very close to the ignition point and controlling the temperature can be very difficult.
Now that 3d printing works with titanium; You can expect to see it used more commonly. It's still very expensive, but the more common the tech becomes, the cheaper it will get to obtain complex titanium parts.
@@GregAtlas >slave labor
>in 1960s
Cope westoid, cope
@@piotrgrzelak2613 ikr, this guy is a freaking lunatic. Don’t forget to study the topics, before spilling your nonsenses into the world, Grego..
@@Balanar1986 The soviet government paid workers in money that could only be used to buy goods from the government itself, economically speaking they were essentially slaves.
Fun fact about titanium in USSR, there is a monument in Moscow built fully from it, it is a 42-meter monument for Yuri Gagarin. Also, there is a 107- meter Monument to the Conquerors of Space built from it too, it was built earlier (67) but was only lined with titanium plates, when Gagarin was casted.
Insane.
Wonder how long it will be until they are melted down.
@@michaelwilson9245 why would anyone melt down Gagarin? He's a national hero and Russians are proud people.
@@demonbox666 because of depleting amounts of titanium. Nothing against uri gagarin.
@@michaelwilson9245 Why should titanium run out? It is recycled like steel and many other metals
Do not worry about "not scripted". Your current way of presenting sounds "live" which in itself has a very interesting quality. I feel more like I sit in a room with you doing a presentation. This coupled with the excellent knowledge makes your videos really engaging.
Agree totally. Unscripted is dangerous if you don’t know what you’re talking about. But, when you do know what you’re talking about, it is actually more personal and engaging. That’s the case here.
I always feel like I’m at New London, getting a briefing before deploying on a 637 or 688 watching these.
Totally agree. When people know what they're speaking about the it doesnt harm, it reminds me of college or professional lectures and presentations.
I agree, you're really good at what you do. Great work man 👍🏻👍🏻
Agreed. Doing great job.
(13:30) It's the opposite, Titanium is almost twice as flexible as steel, i.e. its Young Modulus (stiffness) is 110GPa whilst steel is 210GPa. Being of similar strength as the submarine grade steels, translates into the possibility of having less thickness for the same depth if you enjoy reducing safety factors, which combined with the relatively low Young Modulus, causes the hull to shrink at least twice as much as steel, which ultimately can cause anechoic tiles to completely detach in the long run (16:15). Titanium ultimate strength is also much closer to its yield strength (~10% vs ~20% for steel ), which means that the crush depth is much closer to the test depth.
Russians, as evidenced by their military and commercial products, are not known for precision engineering or optimization of design in the same way that has been demonstrated by the Americans. Nor have they shown concern for human life either. I really don’t think you can compare their Yasen class to the Virginia class or the British Astute class.
@@1Barsamian Not to mention their QA and maintenance programs are a joke.
That explains why their rubber shields will fall off earlier.
@@1Barsamian That´s the dumbest thing i read all day. Considering the russians were kicking America´s ass in the space race, and made a space shuttle that was a decade ahead of the american one, i really have to laugh at your comment. That arrogance and ignorance is just staggering, even more when found in the comment section of a video about Russia´s prowess in submarine building, which you surely did not watch.
Btw, your "concern" for human life is also well known. School shootings, police shootings, wars, guns everywhere, no healthcare, etc etc. It´s hilarious reading an american complain about another country´s concern for "human life". You should be a comedian.
@@Biden_is_demented Exactly! Can you believe there are some Americans that think gulags weren't vacation resorts and health spas? Those fools can't even _begin_ to understand the soviets' deep, abiding reverence for human life. Tens of millions murdered my ass! More like tens of millions having orgasms 24/7.
"It's a real unique signature. No cavitation. No reactor noise. It doesn't even sound like screws!
What the hell is it?
I'll tell you what it's not.
It's not one of ours!"
"Uri, I can't believe you lost another submarine."
@@TomJohnsonREMAX "You've got over a hundred Naval vessels operating in the north Atlantic, right now.
You're aircraft has dropped enough sonar buoys so that a man could walk, from Greenland to Iceland to Scotland, without getting his feet wet.
So, shall we dispense with the bull?
@@TomJohnsonREMAX And, what looks like an exercise, could be a prelude to war!
How can we tell the difference?
Prudence demands that we deploy our ships to observe yours.
It would be well for your government to consider that.
Having your ships and ours. Your aircraft and ours, in such proximity, is inherently dangerous!
Wars have begun that way, Mr. Ambassador.
Confession time.
In the United States Navy, I served as an STG(Sonar Technician Guns/Surface). I finished my service as a Second Class Petty Officer.
I served aboard a Destroyer.
I've seen just about every movie involving submarines, surface ships, airplanes and anything else related to Naval Warfare atleast 10 times or more.
I've memorized more lines than I'd care to admit.
I've tracked a submarine for more than 2 sweeps(it's very difficult).
I've been in swells just over 100 feet.
And I've seen fog glow green like in the movie Joe Verses the Volcano.
Just a few tidbits.
Oh, and the C.I.W.S. is an order of magnitude louder than a 5 inch gun.
That's ^ the 20mm Vulcan Gatlin Gun, for those that don't abla abbreviations.
@@Markbell73 Thanx for your service, shipmate. S-3 Viking SENSO operator here. Back in 1976, the intel relayed to us regarding the Alpha was stunning. We could track every other boat yard-to-yard but the Alpha was so fast, maneuverable and deep diving, she was a real challenge. ^v^
Your explanation of the complexities of argon gas shielding to wield TI is apparently why Boeing many years ago developed a process known as Super Plastic Forming. To this day there is little talk about it. It allows repeatability of smaller titanium structures, with far less complexity of TI welding.
Another story-back in the mid 1980s I was flying in the USA and sitting next to me was an American guy who had been working on building a desalination plant for the Soviets. When he arrived in Moscow and began to assemble materials for the task he was dismayed to discover how incredibly rare PVC plastic pipe was in Russia. The stuff we take for granted for sprinkler lines, etc., was nearly impossible to find in the Soviet Union. As a result, he had to resort to using the much more plentiful Titanium for piping. Obviously, it complicated the production of the plant significantly. Where here in the USA you would simply glue a 90 degree elbow onto the end of a piece of Schedule 40, in Russia using titanium, they had to literally weld every connection,every joint, and every bend! Of course, at the end of the day you had a bombproof desalination plant, but it was much more complex than one that utilized Schedule 40! The things you couldn’t source in the USSR!
PVC pipe are not fit in the fridge area like Russia.
The truth is I don't think anyone should be downgrading Russia for not investigating the myriad uses of snot... Now it's everywhere, your house your car your office on the street blowing around simply everywhere,, and scientists still aren't sure exactly how this will affect the biosphere... Landfills are filled with construction debris containing tons of this stuff,, with no end in sight and basically no recycling plans at all, because if there's one thing they've learned about snot, it's cheap enough to just throw away and make some new stuff...
Что делали в СССР с металлами и частности с титаном как и сейчас в России этому парню показалось бы фантастикой просто многое не поступает в гражданское производство ,а тот же Боинг закупает в России для себя детали.
И второе парню который летел с вами просто не сказали что в СССР производились трубы ПВХ . Просто если ты не видел и не знаешь это не значит что этого нет.
The titanium boats also had a lifetime limit on the number of dive/surface cycles as titanium work hardens and becomes brittle as it is cycled. As an aside, Alfas were not particularly quiet. We tracked one for a short period in the early 90's.
Uhm Titanium is well known for not being corrosion resistant and it's resistant to metal fatigue.
Unlike Aluminium which whole corosion resistant is not great in the fatigue department.
Sound insulation has little to do with the material used in the hull.
I don't understand why go through the trouble of handling titanium in Submarines though.
The higher strength to weight ratio isn't as valueable in a submarine vs an airplane.
Nor the heat resistant capabilities.
@@1barnet1 the magnetic signature is significantly lower than a regular steel hull structure.
The Alpha, in fact, was a manned torpedo of the enormous size for suicidal attacks in WW3 which was capable to lunch its own supercavitating torpedoes.
Piston rods are made out of tytanium... so that limit that you are talking here about would be exhausted in how many centuries of constant use?
"We tracked one for a short period in the early 90's." you tracked one and for a shor period of time... wow
Super noisy then... 🤣
@@1barnet1 _"The higher strength to weight ratio isn't as valueable in a submarine vs an airplane."_
You don't think a sub that can go 50% deeper than a steel sub of the same size is valuable? How about a sub 50% larger than a steel sub of the same weight? How about a same size sub, 25% lighter, and 25 % faster? Now, toss in that none of them are detectable by magnetics. Still not valuable?
One note on titanium. Russia has huge titanium reserves. During the cold War and the embargo raw materials that could be produced internally were preferred. Another example is the use of titanium in body armour and helmets for soldiers and I believe, but not certain, on armoured vehicles.
The USA wanted titanium to build high tech helicopters during the Cold War to compete with the high tech helicopters the Russians had.To avoid the Russians getting suspicious the US made up several fictitious companies around the world that bought small amounts of titanium over time and the Russians never caught on
@@johngraham8893 That was for the A-12 Archangel and it's predecessor the SR-71 Blackbird.. Not any helicopters
@@SilvaDreams *successor
@@PrezVeto Thanks I was half awake while typing that and my brain flipped the two words.
Russia is the second largest producer after China. The Soviet Union was the largest but as Ukraine and Kazakhstan are separate nations now leaving Russia in second place.
It seems that story about titanium monuments in USSR was interesting for some people, so here is another one, big part of my relatives are from Severodvinsk, a small town near Archangelsk, it Is nothing special about it, except Zvezdochka shipyard which was producing and repair submarines and titanium ones also. During the collapse of the USSR in 90th there were no commissions from the government and the whole town's existence was on the edge, cause it was so dependent on these shipyards, but there was titanium and technologies, so they started to produce titanium tableware and shovels to survive.
@@fordshaw5833 I had a couple of titanium diving knives.
я бы купил титановый топорик, дрова для печки само то колоть
Тогда лопаты из титана продавали вдоль дорог.
Фильм Эверест.
I read this in Janes back in the early 90’s and told my friend that was in a doctorate program for metallurgy. His jaw hit the floor. Interestingly he was doing his dissertation on the alloy of the welding rods used in WWII submarines that they had lost the “recipe” to.
The US actually bought the titanium to build A12’s and SR71’s from the Soviet Union under the guise that the material was being used to make pizza ovens.
I doubt that this pizza over excuse was believed. Production of Ti sponge is expensive, nd the conversion from sponge to intermediates was also tricky and expensive.
That probably wouldn't work today, since NYC has recently declared war on pizza ovens.
The good old CIA!!!! Think Glomar Explorer.
I read a book a few years ago written in 1980 in the USSR, translated into English albeit poorly. It was about the development of manufacturing technology and the development of non ferrous metals. Very cool, they were really putting a lot of effort into developing metal alloys particularly non ferrous alloys such as Ti And stainless steels. Thoriated magnesium was another area of research.
Stainless steels are ferrous alloys.
@@G31mR yes
@@G31mR austenitic Stainless steel alloys are sometimes referred to as non-ferrous. Albeit a misnomer, term s used to classify most austenitic steel due to the different In characteristics, especially in workability and manufacturing processes. The typical ASME / ANSI text in the US doesn’t typically make such designation.
Ferries are allergic to iron
@@jenpsakiscousin4589 ..not doubting your veracity but,, what the hell would they use thoriated magnesium for? Increase the melting point,, make it harder or less reactive in air?
For me, the lead bismuth reactor was the most fascinating aspect of Russian submarines of the time.
Thanks for this presentation. Many years ago a friend gifted me with a rectangular piece of titanium, roughly 10 inches by 4 inches, 2 inches thick. He obtained it from an intelligence agent who had been in Germany when the wall came down and the country was reunited. A soviet sub had been under repairs in East Germany but worked ceased on it the as the transition began. The Soviets were either unable or unwilling to retrieve their sub and she was cut up on the stocks. Pieces were collected by a number of agencies for evaluation and study and one of those pieces is now my prized paperweight.
Have you tried a radiation detector on it?
expensive paperweight.
Awesome paperweight lol
Soviet nuclear subs were the only ones made of Ti, and they were all based in the Northern fleet, not in the Baltic. They would never be repaired in a East German shipyard because they had no expertise whatsoever in working on this material. This story is as fake as they get, your paperweight isn't a part of a sub
@covid 1234 Where's ure party story
It’s hard to imagine something so big being able to go 44 knots underwater that’s so fast!
They say the nuclear carriers could hear it running and catching up with it
@@-Muhammad_Ali- Nowdays they would have, but they can't hear the Swedish non nuclear submarine.... 😁
@@SgtMclupus Almost all nukes have circulation pumps. Keeping them running when the reactor is shut down is the main purpose of the APC, usually a diesel. It helps keep the core from going critical and melting its way out the bottom of the boat.
That’s 52 mph. Insane
@Muhammad Ali It would be a pretty dumb idea to "catch up" with a submarine designed to kill you. They weren't made to be quiet, they were made to go fast and dive deep. The rationale was at the start of the war these things go full speed to the nearest target of opportunity (likely a carrier group) and let loose. Also note that the Mk.48 hadn't yet come into service until a few years after. That meant that essentially even if you knew it was there you had nothing that could effectively kill it.
I heard a story somewhere the Akula class is nicknamed the Walker class as it relied on secrets handed over by John Walker.
Thanks for this video - I enjoyed the informal style and learned a lot.
Being non magnetic has been mentioned. But a related issue i have not seen mentioned is that titanium is significantly less conductive than steel. Thus induction sensors on the sea bottom have to be closer to the boat to sense it.
The mechanical properties were not the reason they used it.
Most underrated RUclipsr in the world. Sir, you are a legend. I’m going to share your vids with everyone on Facebook. My goodness you deserve far far more recognition and views and everything for you great work. God bless you for helping us understand submarines and ships. God bless you Sir. Much respect from Australia 🇦🇺
🏴☠Sooo, God wants Australians to better understand weapons. Have I got that right?🏴☠
Check out the channel sub brief also.
@@lawfulldick4158 Especially naval ones.
Even unscripted the quality is amazing because one can tell that you are an expert, this channel to me is now the BEST channel about submarines with very good and concrete information.
Also, I'm hopping to receive my Covert Shores copy in a couple of weeks!
Wow, thanks!
Fascinating and absorbing video. Unscripted delivery is quite compelling and engages the ear. Feel free to continue.
Got introduced to your video and channel from watching Aaron on "Sub Brief". My background is similar to his. I was a surface ST for 20 years. 79-99. Stationed out of Pearl both sea and shore, because...Hawaii, I started out as a 26CX tech, then went to MK114 school, did time as an underway evaluator/trainer and classroom instructor, and finished my career as a master level acoustic analyst and Surface Ship Undersea Warfare Specialist. So, when I say that these videos are fantastic and you do a great job with them, you know where that sentiment is coming from. This stuff kind of gets in your blood.
I was a US submariner, the information we got was the titanium would get brittle when compressed, this meant they could go really deep, once, then their crush depth would be recalculated every time they went deep. To be clear, I was only told this, I never read it anywhere, but seemed to be a widespread story, so we all believed it.
same vocation and i heard the same thing, never saw the proof and only SOSUS info on Alpha's and Sierra's.
I'm an engineering school dropout, so not an actual engineer, but some of the innovations I see in Soviet submarines is extremely impressive from an engineers POV.
The lengths they went to in order to one-up the USA are truly incredible, especially having some knowledge of the process that must've been involved in welding an all-titanium hull.
I mean they have some of the largest titanium reserves in the world. They would have to be genuinely fucking dumb to not be able to make use of it lmfao.
Its almost funny, because every engineering feat these soviets have done, is all for image, and not for their starving population lmfao
I like that POV stuff all so.
Technically we have been way ahead of them for many decades. But I loved watching what they would come out with next. They made some cool boats.
@@SlipMahoneyBowery that must be why we needed to by rocket engines from them, and their hypersonic missiles are sooo yesterday.
@@SlipMahoneyBowery попросите китайцев снова заменить вам деревянные шпалы, а то поезда падают каждый день.
Yeah … don’t sell yourself short. Your narration is clear, paced very well, concise and informative. As another comment below, it feels as if you’re presenting to me, rather than narrating from a script. Most interesting video.
Matt Lee
Yeah, very conversational. Some people can wing it, some can't. This guy can.
I've never welded titanium, but my understanding is that the joint and entire HAZ (heat affected zone) must be completely shielded from oxygen on both sides. Either argon or helium can be used as shielding gas. I know that the preferred method of welding relatively small items is in an enclosed "glove box." During the video I was trying to imagine how a titanium something as large as a submarine might be welded. Two possibilities come to mind. The first is to flush the entire workspace with shielding gas. Weldors, fitters, etc., would have to have some sort of closed circuit breathing system. The second is to seal joints from behind, forming ducts for back flushing with gas. A large amount of gas would also be required for shielding the front side. There is also the possibility that the Soviets had developed additional means of shielding the HAZ subsequent to its initial cooling. Either of these methods I've concocted would be very expensive, and asphyxiation risks would be inherent in either case. Would a Soviet titanium submarine builder please chime in?
Saw a documentary once about it. They use airlocks, and huge pressurized chambers where the workers go inside in a type of astronaut suit. The atmosphere inside is completely devoid of oxygen, and special protocols are used to insure the safety of the workers. Being a welder myself, i can´t fathom the difficulty of working in such an environment.
@@Biden_is_demented That's interesting! Sounds like my initial idea was on the right track. It did strike me how it would take the danger and difficulty of shipbuilding and raise it to a completely different level. In the USSR that probably meant those welders got to eat sausage. Would love to see that documentary!
Thats what gas SHIELD welding is....
Y'all acting like the fitters and welders gave a hoot that it was titanium. Like welding it was something special.
@@peeonu25 Titanium requires much better shielding gas protection than steel, aluminum, or even stainless steel. This may not be a big deal if you're welding small titanium widgets in a glovebox enclosure. If, however, you have to do the same thing on the scale of a 150 foot submarine, let your imagination take you where your knowledge cannot.
@@peeonu25 "Like welding it was something special."
It is something special, when you stand in a hangar size airlock chamber, dressed like you´re going to the moon, and surrounded by sharp metal pieces that can slice open your suit and kill you. The act itself of welding isn´t what is special. It´s the fact that you have to keep your wits about you and a sharp eye on your surroundings, because you are breathing a highly enriched oxygen mix, that doesn´t particularly likes open flames, and there is just a thin barrier between you and a painful death. If it were as easy as you make it out to be, the americans would be doing it too. The fact that they aren´t should tell you just how hard it is.
I’ve had two titanium hammers with (waffle) heads, driving nails,I am a carpenter I mushroomed those titanium heads within 30 days
I think I remember reading that Titanium has much greater rates of expansion and contraction due to temperature than steel does, hence the way SR-71's leaked badly (but within spec) while on the ground. This would explain the anechoic tile adhesive problem and probably explains the propeller issue as well. I'm speculating that the propeller and shaft also have to be titanium lest the shaft leak at the hull penetration and the propeller loosen or overtighten if it was composed of other material.
Possible. Also possibly the reason why the hatches, hinges (etc) and even the smallest screws used were made out of titanium.
@@uegvdczuVF Would it be because of the issues with dissimilar metals being more corrosive in sea water? I am thinking of the issues with the littoral water ships of the USN. On an aside about the SR-71. The titanium used to build the aircraft was procured by the CIA from the USSR.
@@Buzzdog1971 dissimilar metals are corrosive in any moist environment not just sea water.
Not a problem with the sub, temperature of the sea is more or less constant +- 20 degrees.
@@altergreenhorn Saltwater is getting very corrosive above ca 30 C. Ti suffers from hydrogen embrittelment. There are various ti alloys. Some are machinable. The oxydation layer is very hard. Ti cannot be forge strenghtened and hardened. Own a hard used Ti diving knife for 15 years. Not the sharpest blade. Almost unmarked, very light
Very informative. I love that they are unscripted. Your skill is improving, don’t sell yourself short. Thanks for posting.
Have to admit, every since I laid eyes on the Alfa, I thought it was the smoothest looking submarine ever. Just looks beautiful. And maybe Tom Clancy hyped it up a tiny bit.
Is there any prototype carbon fiber subs being built?
Really interesting subject. Great to get some details on the deep diving submarines. Would love to have heard of estimated, or "guestimated" operating depths of those really deep diving submarines - like with the Losharik. Even ranges or approximations. Nice video.
1800 feet PLUS.
Very good presentation. One property of titanium is that most commercial alloys and tempers exhibit brittle fracture modes under high strain rates. This is of primary concern regarding underwater explosion attack (UNDEX). Next to our emphasis on silent operation US places emphasis on UNDEX resistance and materials used in the hull integrity boundary are typically ductile with a high degree of toughness.
Interesting, having spent 40 years in the UK Titanium industry and seen so many technical advances, and involved in so many different projects, products, alloys and materials.
I was an American submarine sonar tech for 16 years and can tell you that the titanium advantage is /was a myth
SOSUS and I agree as well
Excellent presentation and also awesome description of the российской подводной лодки. Thank you for sharing. Greetings from PORTUGAL
Heard about you from Aaron. Nicely done. I also appreciate your articles, which keep folks informed of all naval news of interest.
"... those are still in service and probably providing good service to your internet cables"
Dry English humor is definitely a thing and it's a good thing
Great video! I get more information from your video than from any other local source here in Russia. Thanks!
Excellent presentation. I felt as though I was listening to a college level lecture or advanced degree thesis on Soviet era weapons and how they differ from the west. Quite fascinating indeed. Thank you. I am now a subscriber.
Superb video. Not only because of the content but, because of your stating that the it was unscripted, I loved the commentary.
A 'down-to-earth' and clearly knowledgeable presenter that - for me? - made this, the superb video it is. Might I suggest you continue in this vein please??
I think it's interesting that your icon (which I thought was something whimsical of your own design) was actually a Sierra-class sub. A really nice video, as usual. Thanks!
Very true. The former USSR was the leading producer of titanium in there world. May still be for all I know. I remember the ALFA class very well from the 1980's. That submarine really shook up the US Navy submarine force. So much that the Gould Corporation was tasked with producing the MK48 Advanced Capability (ADCAP) torpedo. From what I'm remembering, Gould built the MK48.
Yup, they did probably shock the USN as they were apparently heard from across the Atlantic! VERY fast....VERY VERY noisy boats. Highly automated with limited radioactive shielding. A very "hot" place to work, I imagine.
@@jb678901 Yep JB, seems I remember it. 40+ years later. I seem to recall a TM telling me a standard MK48 had a top speed of 55 knots. And an Alpha could outrun it. That's a FAST submarine! I'm sure it was a hotbed of radiation, as well. We didn't have to shield our secrets from Russia. They were ADVERTISED in the magazines!!!!! Full page ads. The UGC-136AX teleprinter.....full page ad. The MK48ADCAP.....full page ad. This was early 80's. Wow. I do remember that ALFA really stood Naval Intelligence for Undersea Warfare on their heads.🤣
Former submarine sailor on multiple hulls for MANY years - it's NOT that the west couldn't do it (create a titanium hulled submarine) it's that the Soviet Union had the LARGEST reserves of titanium in the world.
The thing is, titanium is stronger and lighter, but it also becomes quite brittle when exposed to excessive expansion & contraction. Once those Soviet submarines made a deep dive, their maximum "test-depth" was adjusted as they could no longer reach that depth safely ever again due to micro-fissures in the titanium.
How much expansion & contraction is a submarine subjected to? We took a string and made it taught at roughly shoulder height on the surface from frame to frame then later that day when we made a deep dive that same string was nearly touching the deck. That picture of the Alfa Class with the square patches exposing the underlying metal was DUE to that same type of expansion & contraction.
Titanium is actually very common in the Earth's crust, every country has large reserves. The difference was that Soviet metallurgy was much better than what was used in the West, so they could produce alloy better
Titanium is everywhere. The commies just decided to build the infrastructure necessary to efficiently extract, process, and turn it into useful and "affordable" products.
@@rollercoasterintogiantdomo incorrect. Look it up and list it by country. Funny thing is, since the "Soviet Union" broke up, they NO LONGER have the huge reserves of Titanium and sources they once had. That is one of the things Putin wants to reacquire is the previous Soviet mineral & metals capacity they once had. China now leads. By a LARGE margin, followed by Australia.
Even if Titanium is below the earths crust in many locations it is neither feasible nor financially viable to mine for it due to the necessary mining practices to acquire the raw material. Those countries (China) who are NOT concerned about the environment TAKE those chances. This, and other similar practices are why China is one of THE most polluted countries, by FAR, in the world!
I found it all very interesting. What really got my attention was the escape capsules. Did they test them and did they work?
Yes, but the one time I think it was used for real was a sad outcome. The general view is that they work
They were used in few accidents. The case when people died in it was due to being not buckled up, if it is not loaded fully, it travels to surface with some acceleration, and pops out of water, following back to water surface. If you are inside it, not buckled up, you would hit ceiling and than floor consecutively. This is what happened on Komsomolets.
Never worked when really needed.
Maybe someone already pointed this out, but submarines have an inner hull (1 or more) and an outer hull, and only the inner hull(s), or "pressure hull," is required to withstand sea pressure as the submarine submerges. The outer hull is, mainly, a hydrodynamic fairing or superstructure designed to allow the submarine to travel through the water efficiently. If the purpose of titanium were to, in part, allow the submarine to withstand greater sea pressure and, thus, achieve deeper depths, then that would apply only to the pressure hull. The outer hull pressure would equalize and would not subject the outer hull to compressive forces. This would obviate the need to make the outer hull out of (expensive) titanium. Maybe the titanium vs steel weight argument has some validity, but I have my doubts.
With all that in mind, the discussions, photos and diagrams given ignore the inner-outer hull issue and imply that there is just one hull and that it is made of titanium, even pointing out where peeling paint shows shiny titanium and proposing that anechoic tiles fall of because the hull is titanium.
Maybe I'll have to eat my words, but I don't believe those outer hulls are titanium. If they are, it's no wonder the USSR went belly up.
Nice point
Thanks
You know for sure the Soviets had a major vodka abuse problem when you see that they armed their first titanium sub with "anti-sip" cruise missiles. 4:41
What is really incredible is just how many years ago this all was done
My understanding is that Titanium isn’t stronger than steel, it is significantly lighter and is equivalent to mild steel; so Medieval plate armor. But it’s lighter and it doesn’t rust. However it’s extremely hard and expensive to process and form
It's stronger in some ways, it is very resistant to bending and flexing so instead of warping like steel when it hit it's fatigue point it simply Shatters like glass.
And yes it is very hard to process because it has to be melted in non-reactive gas environment because in the presence of oxygen when it hits the melting point it will burn instead of liquifying.
"pure" titanium (grade 1 to 4) is comparable to middle quality steel but with less density than aluminium. More it is better than stainless steel against corrosion. In aero/racing, alloy of titanium are used mainly, there you'll find more "magical" stuff.
I grew up on a small island called "Bornholm" in the Baltic sea, in the 1980's (I was born in 1974), and I remember all the rumours about Soviet submarines in the area.
Some were even spotted up along the Swedish coast, which was a big scandal.
I guess it was not just rumours, when it all came down to it.
I'm sure Bornholm people have a lot more to say now !!!
@@jfajfa5582
Nah, it's about the same now as back then, don't forget that the cold war was still going on back then - Everything was a scandal.
19:25 "they're using titanium to build a very light submarine which would have a lot of volume but not a lot of displacement" The volume of the sub determines its displacement, so how does that work?
Really good video.. and I do not mind your delivery style/method at all. Its more like a conversation and if it means more content from you, all good! The quality of the comments shows the type of audience you have here. Some really good and insightful views/observations here. My personal experience with Ti is in the building of a custom AlV6 Ti receiver for a high performance rifle. In reading the comments I have discovered why my steel bolt seems to discolour.. it is reacting to the Ti! Thanks for the information! The Ti is a VERY difficult material to machine. It blunts machining tools virtually immediately. You need to machine it at different feeds and speeds and use a different cooling liquid. The swarf/chips from the machining can ignite and set fire to your shop if you are not careful. For us it is a fantastic material for rifles as the receiver can be made larger, thus stiffer, for less mass. But you REALLY struggle to hand finish trigger guards and other small components with files and abrasives. Almost impossible, whereas all the steel and stainless parts shape and finish very easily by hand. Ti is very very tough to work. Ti feels completely different to touch, I don't know if I am imagining it, but it feels good to touch, don't quite know how to describe it. It FEELs better to touch than steel.. almost like the skin or body responds to it some how?? Keep up the good work, excellent video and knowledge.
The Russian built the most intriguing subs, considering these subs were built in the 70s and 80s is a great technical feet.
The papa is a animal of sub considering it was built at the same time as the skip jack's.
The Akulas scared the poop out of us in the 80s
I seem to remember from university chemical courses that titanium metal was produced industrially by the reaction between titanium chloride and metallic sodium. Of course this required a batch process rather than a continuous one. This might account (at least in part) for the expense of the titanium metal.
Titanium is also brittle compared to steel. I was told this by a former USN sub-mariner. Obviously, this is anecdotal. But I asked him how we would fare in fights against USSR subs and he quoted that if we hit them, their subs would tend to break instead of bend like steel has the capacity to. You kind of mentioned this propensity in your video. Nice vid
Kind of normal thing - anything stronger and more rigid is also less flexible -> more brittle :D
@@piotrd.4850 titanium is initally more flexible though...
A navy commenter here mentioned though that repeated cycling of high and low pressure from diving/surfacing would tend to "work" the titanium, and that would make it brittle.
I thoroughly enjoyed this presentation; very informative and the facts were clearly articulated. Someone like myself, who knows very little about boats was captivated; subscribed. Thank you.
Like the casual, conversational style of the unscripted talk. Easy to listen to.
Argon and Argon mixtures have been standard in welding for a long time. Also, the GDR made massive leaps in Ship welding technology due to their high Fishing vessel output in the 60s and 70s. And MAG Welding is a soviet invention Welding should always be done on clean surfaces, no matter what material you use. And it is easier to set up a work area just for one alloy as it is more your grinding tools swap between different alloys, which causes problems.
So the Russians forgot that the us was taking photos and left a highly reflective submarine in the open?
Without any black anti-acoustic tiles fitted?
I took a CIA history honors course at UMBC and my professor was the one that helped identify titanium as the building material. He was stationed in Leningrad and spied around the Admiralty yard. He collected a piece of scrap that fell off a truck outside the gate and sent a sample back to the US in a diplo pouch. That’s how we found out they were using titanium.
Yes, so your professor was CDR Bill Green? Both stories are true, I chose the scrapyard one as it had the serial number. See this excellent book (well worth buying!)
See books.google.ch/books?id=p8WkkBIeKR4C&pg=PT351&lpg=PT351&dq=scrap+titanium+pennsylvania+alfa+submarine
@@HISuttonCovertShores it wasn’t Bill Green. My Profs last name was Sinski.
Excellent and through coverage. I have been craving the info on the Tactical and logistics of building the titanium hull
You explain things very well. You have a great voice. Very informative. Thank you. Excellent find on RUclips. Happy holidays and a happy new year to all. Cheers! From Atlanta Georgia.
Regarding the titanium screw:
My bike has a Campagnolo Super Record crankset that is left hand threaded. The Potenza crankset I replaced it with is steel and right hand threaded. The reason for this different threaded business is to avoid mixing metals. Galvanic corrosion (which can be mitigated on a bike... Not sure on a sub) is pretty serious and you could end up with a screw that is welded solid and won't move anymore. Especially with the pressures and torques that are being applied for a single tour. 80 days of constant work will take a toll.
worst in sea water, two different metals with salty water in between and you have a "battery", the less noble corrodes... for example titanium / stainless the latter corrodes.
Screw is probably Ti, because of galvanic corrosion. If they had a bronze screw, it would have caused the hull to corrode over time rather than a smaller screw.
I had meant to mention that they are normally bronze, but forgot. Another hint that the screw is titanium is the absence of sacrificial anodes.
Titanium is one of the most noble metals, it wil galvanically corrode steel or bronze. Still, weird they went with a Ti screw, instead of isolating. There's a interesting engineering story here !
I had meant to mention that they are normally bronze, but forgot. Another hint that the screw is titanium is the absence of sacrificial anodes.
I think the added challenge is salt water and pH variables : all sorts of different electrolytic reactions take place
Yas!
@@bobdinwiddy talk about adding insult to injury. I suppose that could also be why the idea of titanium urinals didn't work out either. 😨 darn.
Can a bronze screw withstand the higher pressures of the deeper dives, or could the fear of screw failure in deeper depths of the Ti-boats be the reason for the titanium screw?
I'll just say. It is nearly always necessary to use gas like argon for welding.
The only way you can weld properly whiteout gas is if you stick weld. And the sticks you stick weld with is covered in flux which then does the same job as gas.
Enjoyed this. When I was riding boats, I used to enjoy messages describing these developments. One I particularly enjoyed was the "NISC Weekly Wire".
My favorite metal, of all time. Light, strong, non-magnetic, and withstands all chemicals
Hi again! Love the video, thank you once again. I'm reposting my question from another video of yours in hopes that it may be noticed :P
"Unrelated question, I've always been fascinated by the Russian approach to automation on submarines, specifically torpedo auto-loading systems. Would love to hear/see more around this, perhaps in a future video?"
Yes saw this question, Maybe in future I will get to an article on torpedo tube arrangements etc, fascinating variations abound
@@HISuttonCovertShores Much obliged! Looking forward to it!
I'm qualified on 2 fast attack submarines when I served during the Cold War, they had lots of issues with these. Yes the Alpha were able to dive deeper, but...Titanium after it went under pressure several times it developed cracks due to stress, so they lost a few due to that.
What are you blabing about? Only one was lost due to fire. Titanium aloys were used, with absurd fatigue resistance... Not pure titanium.
Yeah, all is known within your crystal ball bud. What boat did you serve on?
I'd like to know which class or classes of boats you're claiming suffered losses due to imploding titanium hulls, or I'm calling BS.
@@OleDiaBole
Yeah.
If they knew enough about titanium to be able to build boats with the stuff, that makes me pretty sceptical of this "They lost a few boats because they didn't know about metal fatigue" claim.
@@gustaveliasson5395 I served on the USS Memphis SSN 691 from '79 - '83 which was during the time Iran took the hostages, USSR invaded Afghanistan and we went around the world. I got out for a short time but came back into the Navy where I served on the USS Tautog SSN 639 out of Pearl Harbor aka the USS "Tagout" nickname due to everything was old and breaking lol. We ended up going into a major shipyard overhaul in Bremerton WA dur to a warped torpedo tube. There's alot I can't say, but there's some basics. How I will say, the Memphis main induction head valve was screwed up and leaking at one point so we did a transit to Diago Garcia for repairs, good enough young man? lol.
Just came across this channel and I’m in love with the work you’ve done! Wish this was recommended earlier!
@H I Sutton brilliant episode thank you for the work you've put into it. I have wondered much about the "research" sub Losharik since I first heard about the incident July 1, 2019. You see, my son serves as a submariner stationed in San Diego CA. In the US the first reports of the incident were that a Russian submarine had engaged, or was engaged by, a USN submarine, resulting in multiple fatalities. Instantly I went into panic mode trying to get in contact with my son. I heard nothing from him for 6 months, finally receiving a message from him wishing me Merry Christmas. By that time I was barely running on fumes from the stress of not knowing, so finally I was able to breath again. I wonder if a more in depth look into the Losharik tragedy and the subsequent reports/Internet chatter would be appealing to your viewers. I for one would certainly be very interested.
They should make them from carbon fiber and epoxy, i hear those go deep
The Russians missed out on the opportunity to send Putin on a demonstration dive with Stockton Rush.
Only $250,000 a head.
Was it only the skin that was titanium or all of the structural members? If it had steel components internally would those not have created a magnetic signature of the whole boat?
Only the outer skin was Titanium, the other exterior components and all of the inner (pressure) hull were steel.
@@travelinman70 That's a straight face lie. You could go to Wikipedia and get it right. The boat is entirely titanium. They even keep steel trash like food cans in plastic bags because of the risk of galvanic corrosion between the two metals.
I don’t know if this has already been addressed But I just wanted to touch on the titanium screw. I have been in the medical device world for 10 years. All implantable plates and screws are made of either titanium or stainless steel, I have lots of experience working with both metals. In a biologic environment (which an ocean can example of) if there is mixing of metal implants, like a stainless screw going into a titanium plate, it will indeed cause Degradation of the metal at the interface. If you decide to go with titanium, every metal component of that submarine or device, must have titanium to titanium interface. Every screw, every bolt, and every component that’s touching that hull must also be titanium.
very interesting.
Your manner of presentation was enjoyable to watch. It was friendly and engaging.
The stated speeds of 44 and 45 knots is incredibly fast for a submarine. That 50+ mph. Wow.
i remember talking to a russian biker he had a lot of titanium bolts etc i said that s expensive he said it s a lot cheaper in russia just saying
Nice presentation. I am aware that the Soviets developed ceramic coatings for their subs, which made them fast . . . well faster than we could initially account for. Would be interesting to have a presentation on this technology in an of itself. One could even touch on some of the spin-off technologies such as oil that are impregnated with ceramic to increase the wear properties of engines/equipment. . .
Clean, clear and straith to pint. Great information!
My understanding is that the Sierras were built at a different shipyard to the Alfas despite the fact that titanium construction facilities already existed, so the Soviets ended up having to build a third titanium welding facility (titanium cannot be welded in oxygen atmospheres because that creates oxides that severely weaken the alloy, so they must be welded in an inert gas (argon) atmosphere). I'm not entirely sure why that was the case.
“If the west couldn’t do it why would the russians?” Didn’t russia have better availability to Titanium and thus have more readily resources to experimental/mess arround/train/practice with?
Yes, you are right, the CIA had to find ways to deceive the Russians to buy Titanium to build their U2, A-12, SR-71 spy aircraft.
No, not really.
They just saw that titanium could be hella useful if they figured out how to produce and work it in large quantities, and so they threw enough scientists at the problem to make it happen.
I worked in subs, interesting seeing the unclass stats ans figures. The alpha is a legendary submarine, but quite small and I feel, therefore, not as well armed as it may need to be. I spent some quality time focusing on the Alpha.
Apparently titanium is incredibly hard to mould into a submarine. Owing to its low malleability, low magnetic steel is a no-brainer. that being said, in the former Soviet states, alot of cutlery,torches and other souvenirs are made of titanium 😂
Great videos as always.
@@mirandela777 which is surprising that they proceed to build Mig-25 with mostly stainless steel rather than titanium as their high speed interceptor for the likes of SR-71. (though the mostly likely intended target is the also stainless steel built XB-70.)
@@WangGanChang The Soviets were more than capable of producing a "one for one" better aircraft than the Mig-25 when using materials like aluminium and titanium alloys. The issue was one of cost, they would rather have an aircraft they could mass-produce for cheap. And that meant steel.
@@WangGanChang The MiG-25 had to be HEAVY. At Mach-3, the plane has to fly level, so the plane must be heavy to counteract the huge lifting force on the wings. If the plane were lighter it would start to climb uncontrollably like a rocket.
@@andresmartinezramos7513 25's successor, the 31 uses steel, aluminium, titanium and composite for different parts. It's design, not price.
Only shocking thing was (and is) how loud they are
They found a freaking piece of scrap metal which led to the exact sub. How is that not shocking?😂 its not shocking the soviets were selling off stuff like that unknowingly giving away secrets.
Nice video, very informative. I appreciate the time spent on this.
The fastest ever submarine - K-162 (later renamed into K-222) of the Project 661 Anchar - was commissioned in 1969. In December 1970, it set a world record that remains unbroken to this day. At the depth of 100 meters K-162 managed to reach a speed of 82.8 km/h The nuclear reactor powering the sub was using about 97% of its capacity at the time, so theoretically it could have gone even faster.
Probably not able to go faster. Cavitation on the prop rather than power may be the limiting factor. It must have been very noisy.
Only the Russians would set max power on a nuclear sub for any length of time.
Truth be told, there have been other very fast nuke boats that are not Russian. However, on US boats the screw (or propulsor) is optimized to avoid cavitation; sacrificing highest possible top speed. It's a fair trade-off, imho, as torpedoes will always be faster...and dive deeper (for that matter) than any boat's operational envelope.
@@jb678901 When K-162 was built there weren't many torpedos that could go much faster from what I understand and that kind of speed gives a much better opportunity to outrun a torpedo even if it's faster than the sub.
@@trolleriffic Prior to 1972, I would agree that its submerged speed was an advantage. However, with the entry in service of more capable passive/active torpedoes [e.g. Mk48 mod 1 (~1972)] this advantage was effectively neutralized. At the time of the K-162, passive detection ranges were far greater as the Soviet boats were very noisy and their spying hadn't yet gathered the Walker and Toshiba-Kongsberg intel, allowing for the fast western torpedoes to be close enough that the K-162's speed would be insufficient to outpace a higher speed passive/active torpedo.
Later on, improvements in sound isolation and quieting were prioritized over speed by the Soviets with the likes to Victor (III), Akula, Sierra, Delta IV, Typhoon, Oscar (II).
Titanium, which is chemically closely related to aluminum and zirconium, is highly reactive to oxygen. A brief exposure to oxygen will quickly form a molecular layer of titanium oxide. That is why they have to use inert gases when welding. It asks as a protective blanket to keep out the oxygen.
Titanium alloys are stronger by weight than steel alloys, but not stronger by volume. That is why it "dents" easier.
Actually it's very good at resisting stresses, so it won't bend like steel but once it hit's it's fatigue point instead of bending like steel it will simply shatter...
But also titanium will burn when heated to melting point because it oxidizes so quickly which is why it has to be welded or smelted in a non-reactive gas environment.
@@SilvaDreams
Titanium has a bigger plastic and elastic range than steel. That was one of teh reason. Titanium can under go superplasticity at high temps, which steel cannot.
Fatigue failure is different from simple stress. When a metal is worked frequently, it is subject to fatigue cracking and brittle failure. Most steel has some fatigue threshold. As long as the stresses are below a certain level, it doe snot undergo fatigue regardless of the number of stress cycles it undergoes. Most titanium alloys, like is cousin aluminum, does not have a fatigue theeshold. Any stress adds to its fatigue. I had research why aluminum had no fatigue threshold while steel does for a college class back in the day.
@@ycplum7062 Which explains why vehicle makers don't save weight by using aluminum springs.
I was working on a research project in my undergrad days in 1975 that was adjacent to the sub business (that's all I can say about that) and we were aware back then of the existence of Russian titanium subs. Soviet quality control being what it was, I'd never want to go out in one. Titanium is difficult to weld in small quantities/sizes defect-free. Building a defect-free titanium sub in a shipyard environment is extremely, extremely difficult. Got to wonder how many of these were lost and the Soviet Union kept it a secret?
Just can't bring oneself to give the USSR credit for anything
@@miles-thesleeper-monroe8466 A 70 year long FU.
Сколько нефти уходит на изготовление вашей еды?
I love how in depth you go on the subject this was very interesting you got a sun from me for that
To me submarine’s are terrifying but also awesomely cool at the same time. Very interesting video.
Yeah, the west did get it wrong. I remember 45 knots and somewhere between 600-1000 meters. Very interesting to see its actual performance.
I think Russia has started making titanium parts for the Brompton type, folding bikes, which has only been able to be bought from the east, where they also make frames from titanium, and with room for disc brakes on a Brompton type bike.
The Sierra I is also my favorite submarine all the way since I saw it in the Red Storm Rising computer game manual from 1988. Thanks for all of these interesting videos.
Great report. I had no idea that Titanium Submarines were possible much less a standard.
Excellent presentation. Great information. Thank you.
Never underestimate the russians ability to outthink the problem. I'm a steel worker, we use argon to weld our steel as well. The thing is the russians have a abundance of titanium, the rest of the world doesn't. So for them it's cheaper to use titanium as it's sourced locally where as for us it's imported which is expensive. Fascinating video.
They aren't the only place on the globe that mines it. In fact I'm pretty sure there are American deposits. The ore isn't a bottleneck here, know-how and technology is