It's fun to do it, not to mention more entertaining when you actually get a kill with it. I remember out of boredom during The Ark on the first shield you have to take down I used dual-wield plasma pistols to kill the Brute Chieftain on Legendary difficulty, took me a few tries but it was hilarious to watch him chase me down as I slowly whittled him down with them.
It's crazy how just a little effort in creativity and critical thinking can solve one of the biggest divides in Halo. Quality content once again Favyn.
@P. Spit Exactly, it wouldn't work with a current Halo game. Which is what real fans don't want, nobody wants a current Halo game other than 12 year old 343 fanboys that enjoyed the pieces of shit known as Halo 4 and 5.
Here is another very easy way to balance dual weilding in competitive Halo that wasn't mentioned in this video: just don't always put two of the same gun right next to each other on the map. For a weapon like the needler which is currently a tier two weapon, dual weilding it basically makes it a power weapon. if there were only 2 of them on the map, but the second needler is in the enemy base, that could create some very interesting interactions. It would take a lot of effort to earn that second needler.
Dual wielding can and should return. When 'dual-wielding' weapons you should only be able to hipfire, reload times should be longer, and bullet spread/reticle size (accuracy) should be larger compared to solo use of the respective weapons. This way range and kill times are not overpowered and can be modified by increasing/decreasing spread. I'm not going to write all of my ideas for dual wielding on a RUclips comment, but Favyn is right - 343 should think about it. Good video.
I'm pretty miffed that Favyn made a whole video on balancing dual-wielding and didn't mention these balance tweaks. He had a big chance to actually be persuasive and he missed it.
4:10 I'm really glad you used that as an example, people always say the pistol in Halo CE is overpowered because it's a pistol. It's design looks like a pistol but it's a precision all-around weapon just like the Battle Rifle and DMR in later games, and people give the argument that because it's a pistol it should be weak. Keep in mind the Halo CE magnum or M6D Personal Defense Weapon System fires 50 caliber rounds that pierce through armor, and it reflects that in the game, the pistol sounds beefy and it does high amounts of damage as it should, not just because of a lore justification but because of how the game functions and plays.
It's still a possible 3-shot kill that you spawn with... even if the aim assist is lower for that game. It discourages scouring the map for power weapons and cool strategies when you have a weapon that's far too versatile at spawn.
Yes but that's not something easy to pull off, and it's inconsistent, until you master it. Getting a 3 shot kill consistently requires plenty of practice, and as a reward for learning how you'll generally kill that person in a 1v1 encounter unless they are competent enough. The magnum in combat evolved is also projectile based rather than hit-scan Edit: Also keep in mind the kill times in general for Halo CE were faster than most of the other halo games, Halo 3 probably has the longest kill times, maybe reach.
I think that having consistent easy access to a skill cannon without requiring map knowledge or critical thinking is flawed game design, for the same reasons that the Halo 2 BR button combos were bad. It lessens the need for thought, and increases the need for aim. Why can't a good game pull off both?
Halo 2 BR button combos (bxr) were bad? Dude that in itself is a skill to pull off, let alone applying that into a match and it doesn't make power weapons less viable or map knowledge less important, map knowledge is still the most important thing in Halo. How does you being able to use a starter weapon everyone gets even correlate to map knowledge being less important? Do you really think a BR is going to beat a shotgun in close range or a sniper rifle at long range, or an insta kill rocket launcher? " It lessens the need for thought, and increases the need for aim." It does rely on both, especially high level play, go and watch any mlg tournament or in-general competitive play, the most important thing in any of the games is knowledge of the maps, that means weapon spawn locations, weapon spawn timers, and player spawn locations. It's an FPS of course aim is going to determine who win's in a fight and who doesn't, but that doesn't make map knowledge any less effective or less important. Idk what Halo game you've been playing the last 17 years but it's not the same me and plenty of other people have been playing.
I don't care what the lore says, I don't like being insta-killed by pistols. It doesn't feel good and I'll take a rifle as the utility weapon any day of the week.
The things we need (not want) in Halo: 1. Split-screen Luckily 343 have confirmed that every FPS Halo game will have it going forward. Will it be 2 player split screen? Will it be campaign/multiplayer only? Who knows. They were not specific. Keep your wits up) 2. Elites Since 343 took the reigns to Halo and made Halo 4 as their first title, playable Dino's have been absent from multiplayer. This goes with 343's current lack of customization. In this case, more is more. Unless it's Halo 5 "more", where you have skins and skins and skins of ugly armour for days... Just being back Dino's. Little kids, splitscreeners, and random bad kids alike will love you for it. 3. Everything "Halo" at launch... Gametypes (Oddball, King of The Hill, Infection etc) ALL need to be there at launch, in a polished state. No shoehorning shit in way too late into your game's life cycle and just having them be renditions of prebuilt gametypes. It's lazy, it's unpolished, it's late, and it's a slap in the face. Once those 3 things are covered (some things like dev made BTB maps too - something for casual and competitive alike), THEN start adding your own unique 343 touches; without fucking up things too much... In my opinion, of course...
In short 1. Splitscreen 2. Playable Elites in all game modes 3. A finished game Seems like a good game play that’s looks to drive halo in the right direction but maybe some other ideas 4. Extensive customization. Having “more” could just mean more armor sets or skin which isn’t really what is wanted all the time but being able to customize every part of you spartan for head, shoulders, chest, forearms, legs, knees, visor, and emblems that you could create (similar to BO2 emblem editor) 5. Halo browser. Being able to download maps and game types in halo was great and allowed players to play some of the best custom games ever but imagine more, being able to download customized emblems, checking out different armor combinations before you bought armor(I mean this in the way halo Reach did credits not with micro transactions) etc 6. Armor customization for Elites? Maybe this is a stretch but Elites have been in halo since forever having them get the “full treatment” wouldn’t be too much to ask we’ve seen different types of elite armor but have only been given access to 5-6 types
GaryDX25 I would like a cosmetic system similar to what Titanfall 2 has; RNG, but easily unlockable through in game credits only given through matches and achievements
John Stuart might want to rewatch the video haha, these mechanics have downsides like adding a bit of consideration time to balancing so upsides and downsides for the 343 the downside being time
For the Plasma Pistol, you could make it so that you require both hands to over-charge it for its EMP effect, so that when you dual-wield, you can't over-charge it.
I think Ruby of Blue had the right idea. Bungie should've just left the damage for each gun alone, yet made the weapons more inaccurate when duel wielding. Now you have a risk reward system for more firepower at the cost of range/precision.
I think the other thing to keep in mind with dual wielding is what you give up - grenades. Grenades have to be useful if dual wielding is implemented again, because that trade-off needs to be dialed in just right. If grenades are almost useless due to low damage or being easily dodged, then why wouldn't a player dual wield at any opportunity? In my opinion, starting with Halo ODST, grenades have been getting weaker and less useful in Halo, especially once grenade proximity indicators on the HUD were introduced.
Halo 5 makes grenades really good. If anything they might be a bit too powerful. frags can easily bounce around cover and hitmarkers can tell you someone is there, splinter nades are good area denial and vehicle disablers, and plasma do what they always do but now they blind and can be used to launch weapons.
ODST's grenades are identical to Halo 3's. You just get 1 more of each and you throw them a little steeper/shorter. Halo CE had nukes, Halo 2's were also a little intense... Halo 3's were the best though. Halo 4's were firecrackers XD
I. Chrome Maybe it's just me, but I feel like ODST grenades do less damage. Maybe it's because brute armor is more like energy shields, but I don't know. Halo 2 grenades were decent for multiplayer, but in campaign they are shit. On heroic or legendary, if you don't land the stick with a plasma grenade, it does almost no damage. I agree that Halo 3 had the best grenades for both campaign and multiplayer. In Reach grenades seem weak, especially in campaign. And yes, in Halo 4 grenades are basically visual effects.
I wish Halo had its own version of an indicator, rather than copy from other modern shooters. It'd be cool if it was a feature of the motion tracker, able to to detect incoming nades and rockets, with an aircraft-like warning alarm. On the one hand, it's far more accurate than a standard grenade indicator, but on the other hand it takes a few milliseconds longer to see where the nade is.
Fav I just have to say you are seriously a genius when it comes to game design. You deserve a spot in 343 because your love for Halo is clear as day and your ideas are all great. Love the channel man, I hope one day a studio can recognize you and give you a spot there. I have no doubt you would make one hell of a game.
As someone who is anti dual-wield, this is the absolute best defensive case for dual wielding I've seen. The Halo CE Weapon sandbox has always been my favorite, primarily because of the utility aspect of many of the weapons. Combining the concept of utility weapons with dial wielding is VERY interesting, but certainly would be difficult to implement without developing powerful metas. 343i produced a very well balanced weapon sandbox in halo 5 ( I would have loved to see more utility weapons). But half the guns are redundant ( how many rifles are there?) And think about how long it took them to address the balancing concerns between the AR and the SMG. I'm not saying that weapon balance has to be conducted like it was in Halo 5, but given the amount of time it took 343 to address it's automatic weapon balancing issues, it does not instill faith in me that they could adequately balance dual wielding in the manner you prescribed. If they can pull it off, bring it. That kind of game sounds super fun.
It would take creativity for sure but thats what game designers are payed for. I myself am just brainstorming how many possible ways you could implement what favyn stated, its a fun challenge imo.
Some balancing suggestions for duel-wielding: Duel plasma rifles- If both weapons are overheated, it will damage your own shields (twice the heat exhaust=harm). Up to 25% shield damage, will not affect health. Duel SMG's- H3 recoil, however single SMG has no recoil. Duel pistols- Same as your example Duel Needlers/Mauler- No reload Duel Plasma Pistols- If both are charged at the same time, you will strip your own shields and disable any shield, equipment, or vehicle next to you (5 ft.). Duel Anything- 50% normal melee damage, but has more knockback (use right stick to melee while dueling).
@Smugglerscomedy Because I use Boxer as my control scheme. Also, I don't want to drop my dueled weapon while using melee. BTW, totally forgot I made this comment. I feel sad now, because I almost literally forgot about Halo.
dual wielding was such a cool feature, and frankly so few game actually have it as a feature now, and even when they do its usually a set pair of guns you can dual wield, like uzis. in halo you could mix n match tons of stuff.
Yup, well stated as usual. Bringing up the fact that the community and developers seem to only gauge a weapon's usefulness according to it's TTK instead of utility and unique traits is a great thing to highlight. Mentioning the needler in Halo 3 as a non-dual wieldable weapon is also noteworthy. Great job!
I love your videos man. Excellent, clear, to-the-point commentary. I love the design of Halo, and how it's design lends itself to an interesting and all encompassing sandbox (one of many brilliant elements of the franchise). Great, complex games such as Battlefield, Counter-Strike, Overwatch, etc. can't have a sandbox as unique as Halos. It's as if Halo's core gameplay is a perfect, consistent FPS canvas. No bunny-hopping/weird movement gimmicks (sprint included), lots of TTK to work with, very visually clean too.
Dual Wielding overhaul: When you dual wield two weapons you can melee with them and store them in your back pocket, but their melee damage is significantly decreased, you cannot throw grenades with them equipped and you can only have 1 pair of dual wielded weapons on you at a time. Also, it takes longer to draw a dual wielded pair of weapons from your back pocket than if they were being used on their own. Magnum: Like you said in the video- utility of being really fast to draw with a high fire rate, fast reload and a scope, but significantly weaker than say the BR damage wise. When dual wielded the fast draw is none existent nor the scope and a slightly longer reload time is applied. SMG: Utility of being the fastest reloading and firing automatic weapon in the game, and steadily decreasing accuracy; in Halo's engagements players can use up a lot of rounds in order to kill another player- if the SMG reloaded faster it would have the utility of having less down-time between fights than any other weapon. When dual wielded the reload time is significantly longer and the weapon is always at it's most inaccurate bloom. Mauler: Instead of firing hit scan projectiles it now fires 4 plasma bolts per trigger pull that are very weak against health but great against shields; when used on it's own, if all 4 plasma bolts in a shot hit the same target the mauler gains a melee damage bonus, allowing the user to kill the target with a single follow-up melee. When dual wielded, it's still a shotgun against shields, but it loses the melee damage bonus. Spiker: When used on it's own, the spiker has an increased melee lunge distance and successfully landing a melee with it makes it's projectiles home-in on enemies for a short period of time. This makes the spiker the best weapon in the game hunting down an enemy that's trying to flee (bar the energy sword). When dual wielded, the bonus melee lunge distance no longer applies, but a successful melee hit when dual-wielding it will still cause it's projectiles to home. Plasma Pistol: Same as it always has been except, when dual wielded, the homing effect of it's charged bolt is significantly nerfed, making dual-wielded noob combos take a little more skill. Plasma Rifle: On its own it stuns and slows players as it did in Halo CE and can rip through shields, but is terrible against health. When dual wielded however it's stunning ability is severely dampened.
really like the magnum utility portion of this video. Think Destiny's sandbox. Say you have 2 Hand Cannons you are considering for a Crucible match. Weapon A has better range and mag size, and is currently a meta weapon in terms of hand cannons, but Weapon B has high caliber rounds on it and okay stats. While Weapon A has better stats and pumps out more damage, weapon B's high-cal rounds may find more use to you since it'll flinch the enemy more. A weapon's balance is more than it's damage value and TTK.
Hey man well said. Really nice job on this video, you made me think of dual wielding in a different way than I even realized it could be thought of. I like the way you presented your points and looked at it from all angles of the situation!
I suggest balancing dual wielding in a very specific way. Reduce accuracy when firing both weapons significantly. If alternately fired, it should face no penalty outside of lack of zoom. It effectively lets you have extended mags so you can fire more with less reload. It'll never beat a shotgun at close range.
Wonderful video, as always. I am someone who has always liked the idea of dual wielding, but has never liked its implementation. This video gives me hope that maybe one day, we can see dual wielding significantly alter the sandbox in a positive manner.
Do what bungie did in halo 3, make a non dual wield sandbox balance( including dual wieldable weapons ), then balance all of the wieldable combinations as if they were single weapons.
I like how he basically spends the first part of the video explaining the main flaw in SPV3's weapon sandbox (which is weapon redundancy) And the SPV3 sandbox doesn't even *have* dual wielding.
Great idea! If every weapon had a unique trait or utility like in CE & Reach while considering Halo 5's huge weapon variety 343i could do a lot of interesting balance & combos. Definitely would like Dual-Wield make a comeback!
My concept was for an alternative way to implement Duel Wielding in the Halo 5 setting, was as a Req weapon, already giving you two SMGs that are one weapon in terms of coding but visually two weapons in terms of physically shooting them. Beyond that, I could not think of anyway to implement duel wielding, but as a wanna be game designer, this challenges my way of thinking significantly.
This may sound over ambitious but If I were to bring dual wield back I would experiment this This can be done with the Spiker, plasma pistol, plasma rifles, pistol, Mauler >Faster fire rate >Melee gets swapped with a slow roundhouse kick >Decrease weapon accuracy >Bullets now fire and most effect in close range >Armor abilities cannot be used >You can jump over a players head and do the same spin shooting that chief did in the package from halo Legends but it can be only done once because it would shower a lot of bullets everywhere draining 70% of ammo. When spinning your upside down in FP aiming it can be adjusted in 3rd person or FP. Is this a good idea? what can be improved?
I'm late to this channel...as an original halo fan that still enjoyed halo 4 (but less so 5) I really appreacite the depth of analysis here. I play Destiny 2 these days, but these vids serve to remind me why I played Halo and I can only hope people with your perspective (which I'm certain exist in 343) have a voice in Halo Infinite...I may be able to move on from Destiny, but at present it seems I'm more Bungie than "halo"
I’m for some reason when playing halo I thought that all the non power weapons like the AR, BR, Magnum, etc had a balancing criteria that included body shot damage, rate of fire, and range/purpose. I would guess that a BR would be better at medium and long range compared to an AR but when both are doing body shots only it seems like it takes roughly the same time to kill so I always thought they do the same amount of damage just with different purposes like an AR would usually outperform a BR at close range without headshots but that’s because it’s meant for close range where as a BR would outperform an AR because it has more range and accuracy seeing as it’s meant for longer range combat. Based if that I never really felt that dual wielding was such a problem because yeah you pump out more bullets to do more damage faster but usually weapons allowed to dual wield would most always beat you in the situation it’s meant for. SMGs can be dual wielded but they already are meant for close range so if you have a BR and you’re only doing body shots whether single or dual wield I felt as though the SMG would win at close range. Bringing in other factors such as headshots and melee dual wielding is actually more of a set back than advantage cause think. You lose smartlink availability, the dual wielded weapons aren’t very good at longer range, and you have to drop the weapon to melee, all the cons for higher DPS or a quicker combo than switching out. Given the combos are good like plasma pistol emp with a magnum or a plasma rifle and SMG(one to eat shields the other to eat health) that’s still not a good trade off if your enemy has long range I actually want dual wielding to return it made the things experience better and if things turn out well maybe there will be a way to sprint into a slide while blasting away with dual SMGs. Think of that in your mind, now put the sliding and shooting in slow motion. Looks awesome
Great video as always! A thing that no one really thinks about, but is the most annoying inconvenience in the modern Halos is the horrible idea of putting cool downs on every mounted gun. Seriously, play Halo Reach through 5 and tell me you enjoy it. The chainguns or plasma canons never needed balancing, and had been balanced since Halo CE, as they were extremely accurate but could be fired indefinitely. Then Bungie added it to Reach which made playing the gunner of a wharthogs significantly less fun. Now, regarding Scorpion tanks. If the chaingun was still under the driver's control as we saw in CE and 2, then I could see them wanting to limit it's ability to have both the main canon and chaingun firing at the same time. But with the system of the gunner being separate, and no especially since the gunner can only fire in a 180 degree arc in front of the tank, why does it need a cool down meter? It's tedious.
Bignaaasty Favyn brought up the pistol utility thing as an example *on it's own* but then stated that the reason why it would balance the dual wielding is that it would lose it's utility for extra firepower. So his point still isn't much different from mine. The lower accuracy could work for weapons that's hard to have utility for, like the smg (^: Things like pistols can maintain accuracy, but just lose the quick draw utility.
why make the range and accuracy lower though? why change the gun at all? dual wieldable guns cant be really good by themselves for risk of being op. so thats why he talked about utility. it doesnt have to be about killing things. you make duel wieldable guns useful because of their utility. not their ttk. like the plasma pistol. weak gun but has very useful attributes. when dual wielded the gun is twice as powerful but its still weak but thats fine cause its utility is so good. say the smg is a weak gun in general but maybe you give it some fancy utility attribute that makes it really useful in a common situation. now the gun is worth using while not duel wielded. but if you duel wield it its not op cause the base guns ttk is still weak. its utility is what made it a good gun. its not about its ttk its about how useful it can be.
Bignaaasty The plasma pistol doesn't get double the power when dual wielded with something else. It just makes it easier to pop off a headshot without switching guns if you're wielding it with a pistol. Even if you are wielding two plasma pistols, two fully charged shots is still only going to take out the shields, and maybe hurt the guy a little. When it comes to the smg, doesn't it make sense? You'll holding two fully automatic weapons, it only makes sense that you would become less accurate. But see, that doesn't effect the time to kill of the gun man. I'm not saying change the damage stats of the smg. But if you're holding TWO smgs, that is basically double the damage. Even without any altering to the gun, it's still double damage just because you're firing two guns at the same time. They can just combat this by making it less accurate, so yeah you can shred people faster, but you have to be closer. Again, with your point with ttk, it's not altering the guns damage. Also like Favyn said, it can be different for each gun. This was just my example with the smg. The pistol quickdraw utility makes sense, but it's a bit harder to apply a "unique attribute" to an average automatic unsc gun.
I'll throw another idea out there in the wild: Would it be compelling if you have dual wieldable weapons which, once combined, give you a slight advantage as a player? On their own, however, these are supposed to be not really effective. Imagine having 2 SMGs on Truth. One is located on Blue Street and the other would be found on the other side of the map at Red Car Street. If someone assembles both of them, then you should have an advantage in CQBs.
You make me feel sooo much better about myself. I'm pretty bad at Halo and it makes me feel bad when halo youtubers flaunt how AWESOME they are at the game. You're still MILES better than me, but it isn't like 30-1 kill-death ratio.
You know how the damage tables make it so Covenant weapons usually do more damage to shields than to armor (in general, just look at the plasma weapons)? I think UNSC weapons should have balanced damage proportions, while Promethean weapons should be shit to shields but disintegrate Spartans extremely fast! Headshots will still reign supreme, but it'll differentiate the Promethean arsenal more than just "Oooo floaty-bits, oooo tracking rounds".
Take Skyrim's magic as an example. The three destruction magic types (fire, frost, and shock) did the same thing on their own. They killed stuff. But it was the secondary effects that made them different. Fire did more damage via burning. Frost drained stamina and slowed opponents down. Shock drained magicka, making invaluable to use against a mage. 343 can learn from this. Imagine a gun like the Sticky Detonator (which was a great weapon btw) where instead of a launching a grenade, shot a probe that slowed the target by say 50% for 10 seconds. This could be used on flag carriers, sword/hammer carriers, VEHICLES maybe. The point is, its a new gun that MAY actually work well in the sandbox. To be honest, there was a gun that actually sort of achieved this. Can you guess? It was the Concussion Rifle, one of the things Reach did right. A solid gun that wasn't too OP. Its killing power was reasonable, but what made it interesting was how it had considerable push back on the target. Infantry would be pushed back, vehicles would be tossed. These gimmick made the CR an invaluable tool in the right situations. I have no idea why 343 removed it. I really don't. Let's take it further. What if this gun made people move faster for a short period of time. You shoot a teammate and they get this buff. This creates a SUPPORT role for the game. Now if a friends has a shotgun, you can give them a quick speed boost before entering combat so they can close the distance on an enemy. This can be balanced by the fact that it is not only useless on enemies, but harmful to your team if you miss and hit an enemy. Also, this can be a one shot weapon so the entire team (except the weapon holder) doesn't have attribute buffs. This doesn't even need to be limited to speed increases. It can be a 5 second damage multiplier or increase jump height. The possibilities are endless. If anybody has any good gun ideas that expand beyond "does more damage" leave them here. Hopefully Favyn will make a video about them. Also I'd love to see what ideas you have.
Worth noting that the assault rifle was not removed for balance, but for aestethics. In Halo 1 you have a precision pistol, and spray and pray rifle,a nd no true sidearm. In Halo 2 you have a precision rifle, a spray and pray smg, and a pistol that is a proper sidearm that can complement another weapon in dual wielding. This was just to make it feel more realistic and intuitive.
I have an Idea for the SMG... Alright so let's say the SMG is strong on it's own, about the strength it had in H2A maybe a little more but when dual wielded it's strong enough to go get a 50/50 win rate versus a shotgun close to mid range. Now let's say we put that gun on a map, one in each base, on it's own it's still worth picking up but now we also put another SMG on the map in a more neutral spawning location and bam. We've just made completely new and unique power weapon. Great video btw
I'd much rather talk about cool new ideas for Halo than rehash tired arguments about why things suck so we must never ever have them again; so this was a welcome change of pace, and a pretty interesting one at that. Weapon utility and how dual weapons can share or remove attributes beyond the typical damage/ammo/spread traits sounds like just the kind of creative interaction to bring it back. In fact, Halo Legends (Origins Part 1) had Forerunner sword-type weapons that, when placed side by side, could share energy with other swords to fire a twirling forked energy beam to do massive damage, I imagine dual-wielding these swords would create a similar effect. Maybe you could even strengthen the beam with more people standing next to you with their swords, give it a teamwork aspect. Who knows what combining the Forerunner sword with a Plasma Pistol or another energy weapon could do? Of course, there's still the matter of how a single Forerunner sword in the sandbox would compare to a single Covenant Energy Sword; I'm just spitballing here.
Adam Wiley In the Making of Halo 3 documentary, Bungie employees described how they felt dual wielding messed with the sandbox in Halo 2, and how the Assault Rifle in Halo 3 was an attempt to reduce dual wielding in multiplayer. Then, by the time Reach came around, it had been completely done away with.
The fact that most people believe the Needler in Halo 2 is trash (granted that's pretty true lol), it's a contributing factor for what leads me to getting kills with it. It works surprisingly well as a suppressive weapon. And any stationary snipers are demolished by it. In general, I just love the added rate of fire dual-wielding provides. It's just plain cool :)
Playing H5 for the first time, the gunfighter magnum was just such a cool weapon to me, I think it should have a different name as it pretty much isn't a magnum in terms of damage output and its appearance looks like a slightly more modified modern pistol.
Could you do a video on mod support for halo 6 ad future halo games? Like Bethesda, imagine the creativity and amount of ppl that'd play if mods were introduced with a more expanded forge.
In general I feel like dual wielding gives the player more options, which is good. You can’t throw grenades when you dual wield, and the range on most of the dual wielded weapons isn’t great. You can combine pistol and an energy weapon to get quick headshots, you can be deadly in close with dual smgs, you can make a hail of projectiles with dual plasmas. Just seems like an all around good thing
Treat it as a single weapon with two fire modes: Simultaneous fire and alternating fire. Melee is a kick and nades lower one weapon(on screen) but don't drop it.
You're fucking brilliant dude. Love your videos. If they don't implement duel wielding the way you proposed, they could do a less creative route by making some weapons dual wield only. They would not be able to smart link and have a slower reload time but the up sides are more bullets down stream than normal weapons and maybe you can shoot one while meleeing with the other. Plus since you always have 2 weapons when holding these dual wield only's, you burn through ammo more. It also allows for weapon variety. There could be 2 smgs, one that shoots slower and has a scope and one that shoots faster, only dual wieldable, and less damage. That's a part of another idea I had for weapon variety and halos art style but I wont get into it. Side note: how cool would it be if the last mission of the campaign u got dual wield rocket launchers or Spartan lasers just for the fun of it, obviously not something that would be ok in mp
Favyn- I just found you're channel yesterday (you can thank Act Man) and I have to say, you've impressed me as a Halo fan, researcher and speaker. You actively try to point out issues, but you take a step further and actually try to offer solutions to these problems instead of just whining like a lot of other reviewers. Which brings me to my point. You have stated time and time again that changing the core mechanics is detrimental to Halo's gameplay. You suggested that 343 should focus on creating new and innovative sandbox elements that create new encounters but keep the flow of the game the same. So I had an idea and would like your opinion on it. WHAT IF we had armor abilities (like Reach and H4) but instead of systems that are stuck with your character, they act behave like power ups or pick ups (equipment H3)? Basically they would spawn on the map like anything else, and when you pick it up, it stays in your "inventory" (for lack of a better term), for say a minute. So if you have Armor Lock (not that anyone wants Armor Lock to return), you can only have it for 1 minute before you can no longer access the ability and have to get another item. Or if you have Jet Pack, you get some extra mobility for a while, but you have to be careful not to be in lethal areas (pits/killzones) when it wears off. OR this could be applied to sprint. A single player on the field having access to sprint or a short period. This could definitely create so interesting scenarios where an enemy has the sword, but you have sprint and he doesn't so you can escape him. Now I know that this would cause issues with map creating since the devs would want to make areas where these abilities can shine. But what do you think? Could this work? --Thanks for the good content. Stay Clear and Concise.
This was going to added as well but dual wielding swords would be interesting and would allow creative options Could dual wield energy swords work like this? You cannot throw grenades instead you hold the swords in a X pose and your shielded and no small arms fire can damage you, but while your shielding and getting shot, your sword ammo depletes, when getting shot it goes down slow but being shot using continuous X pose the sword energy will indeed drop like a rock. and earn the achievement "Out of batteries pal" I didn't add too much because id like to see how this would work in all the Halo FPS games.
UTILITY FOR THE WEAPONS All zoom functions are removed when dueling -Pistol, When single weapon it has a quick draw/weapon swap when dueling -Spiker, when single weapon it has a quicker melee animation and does slightly more damage (still does not a one hit though). -Plasma rifle, When single the weapon does not slow down its rate of fire anywhere near as much as it always has. Also in single mode its cool down phases is significantly shorter (explanation for this would be Masterchief has a free hand that allows him to press a rapid cooling button on it) -Needler, Massively reduced needle lock range and locking strength when dueling -Plasma pistol, no difference between dueling and not dueling -SMG, i cant think of anything other than stupidly in accurate when dueling? -Mauler, needs a total redesign as it has always just been a crappier shotgun -bolt pistol, needs a total redesign because its homing function feels shit to play against. I say remove it from the game personally. Any other suggestions
Honestly the Boltshot was a good and interesting weapon in H4. The problem was being able to spawn with it. H5's version of it lame. It's just a short range BR that has lock-on. EDIT: I think the Boltshot should replace the Scattershot as the Promethean shotgun. The SS doesn't bring anything new to the able except the ricochet effect, but let's be honest here. Who actually uses that effect?
Favyn You said in previous videos that no Halo game has done the sandbox right. I curious as to what Halo sandbox you think came the closest to nailing it?
A fun idea would be to make dual wielding almost like a power weapon like "oh shit that guys dual wielding" then make a one life gametype with no weapons on the map with dual wield able weapons so if someone dies not only is it 3v4 but now there's a power weapon sitting on the floor and either team can go for it
Hey man, Spiker + Silenced SMG every day, best weapon combo N/A. Also the last new thing dual wielding was in was the H2A multiplayer, it kinda sucks no one really played that.
Hightened recoil, bloom, reload times, and melee delay would be a start. Maybe lower movement speed/look sensitivity while firing- like the H3 flamethrower. Perhaps lower projectile speed varying on weapon- green gun charge most of all. Longer bloom reset times for precision weapons. Could this work?
I think the balance with dueled plasma weapons should be overheating being dangerous to the user if both weapons are overheated, draining some of your own shields. Dueled SMG's should have more upward recoil when dueled with another weapon. Needlers cannot be reloaded when dueled (it's a friggin' crystal that shatters into the weapon, it's not a magazine). Maulers slow you down while being dueled and fired. These weaknesses mix and match, for example during an SMG/Plasma rifle combo, you will get both the shield overheat and recoil debuffs, because you need a free hand to open the plasma weapon to cool.
Duel wielding was good in h2 because the only guns that could be duel wielded were short range so you’d have to decide whether to use your assault rifle or rely on short range combat
Ok I have an idea that would make logical sense for the PR to lose its stun ability when dual wielded, you need 2 hands to hold the gun while its firing the stun bullets but when you dual wield you lower the strength of the gun so you can shoot it without kick. Idk maybe before you start dual wielding it plays an animation that turns a knob on the plasma rifle or something.
I loved duel wielding I would be awesome in a classic gameplay war zone we could even make crazy changes in war zone like duel wielding energy swords or snipers and crazy stuff campaign too it would make chief better than doom guy
Haven't watched the video, but I think a great way to make it work would be the ability to switch weapon without dropping your dual-wielded weapon. Edit: Your pistol idea makes me more confident in my idea. The faster swap could be a trait shared by most dual-wieldables, but when you have both you switch at normal or even decreased speed.
I honestly feel like Halo wouldn't be too bad if they removed the COD aiming with gun thing. I'm not against it, but I'm just saying it wouldn't be horrible if it didn't have the "smart zoom" thing.
Here is a thing i always wonder, you guys ever noticed how the last game of each dev (bungie and Epic games) didn't do so well/received by fans well. They changed to core gameplay!!(No shit)Halo 4/5 like Gears of War judgment was a major let down and it died off really fast and people went back to GOW3/Reach. everything from the movement to the characters was changed(no more Locust for Gears of War in its MP/ No more elites for Halo) Fast forward to TC and you noticed in the making of Gears Of War 4 video they talk about how "we are not going to change the Core game play just fine tune it so its feels a lot more smoother, and lot more natural to move around the map, And Change/Tune the weapons so one does't feel more power full than the other (except the gnasher that's always been like that lol) . To this date Gears of War 4 is my favorite MP of all the Gears games right next to gears of war 1. (except these micro transactions!! Killing the game, like most are) Now in Bungies case and 343's, Halo reach started all the changes and it was a 50/50 reception at best for me, bloom and amour abilities where there but i felt like some of its core was still prominent since some of the playlist disabled those abilities. However unlike TC, 343 instead of going back to the Core game play, they kept changing everything they could so its feels like a totally different game and not Halo any more!! TC didn't continue where Judgment left off! It went back to its roots and it worked out wonderful, what I don't understand is why cant 343 say Fuck it! lest just go back to basics! I'm sure Halo would be a lot more successful by now, but I don't know i'm just an old fan of a game that's is Basic Core gameplay I fell in love with. :)
I am happy to say I am that guy that picks up the most ridiculous dual-wield combos in multiplayer and campaign. I am proud to be that guy
It's fun to do it, not to mention more entertaining when you actually get a kill with it. I remember out of boredom during The Ark on the first shield you have to take down I used dual-wield plasma pistols to kill the Brute Chieftain on Legendary difficulty, took me a few tries but it was hilarious to watch him chase me down as I slowly whittled him down with them.
The Act Man Give us an example of an unusual combination that you've used. Once, I dual-wielded a Magnum and SMG. (That's not too unusual, though.)
imagine dual wielding plasma pistol and needler, lol
Plasma pistol in one hand, and a pair of sunglasses in the other. Hell yea.
Dual welding is the nemesis of battle rifle domination.
It's crazy how just a little effort in creativity and critical thinking can solve one of the biggest divides in Halo. Quality content once again Favyn.
@P. Spit Exactly, it wouldn't work with a current Halo game. Which is what real fans don't want, nobody wants a current Halo game other than 12 year old 343 fanboys that enjoyed the pieces of shit known as Halo 4 and 5.
P. Spit L
Here is another very easy way to balance dual weilding in competitive Halo that wasn't mentioned in this video: just don't always put two of the same gun right next to each other on the map. For a weapon like the needler which is currently a tier two weapon, dual weilding it basically makes it a power weapon. if there were only 2 of them on the map, but the second needler is in the enemy base, that could create some very interesting interactions. It would take a lot of effort to earn that second needler.
Dual wielding can and should return. When 'dual-wielding' weapons you should only be able to hipfire, reload times should be longer, and bullet spread/reticle size (accuracy) should be larger compared to solo use of the respective weapons. This way range and kill times are not overpowered and can be modified by increasing/decreasing spread. I'm not going to write all of my ideas for dual wielding on a RUclips comment, but Favyn is right - 343 should think about it. Good video.
That'd be another interesting mechanic to analyze :D
Aozolai how about the promeathean weapons, can they also be dual wieldable?
I'm pretty miffed that Favyn made a whole video on balancing dual-wielding and didn't mention these balance tweaks. He had a big chance to actually be persuasive and he missed it.
@@Jacob7393 He was and still is persuasive. TTK and other balancing like that is given...
I think that there's other cool ways to balance dual-wielding as well, so, what you laid out shouldn't be a blanket balancing philosophy.
4:10 I'm really glad you used that as an example, people always say the pistol in Halo CE is overpowered because it's a pistol. It's design looks like a pistol but it's a precision all-around weapon just like the Battle Rifle and DMR in later games, and people give the argument that because it's a pistol it should be weak. Keep in mind the Halo CE magnum or M6D Personal Defense Weapon System fires 50 caliber rounds that pierce through armor, and it reflects that in the game, the pistol sounds beefy and it does high amounts of damage as it should, not just because of a lore justification but because of how the game functions and plays.
It's still a possible 3-shot kill that you spawn with... even if the aim assist is lower for that game. It discourages scouring the map for power weapons and cool strategies when you have a weapon that's far too versatile at spawn.
Yes but that's not something easy to pull off, and it's inconsistent, until you master it. Getting a 3 shot kill consistently requires plenty of practice, and as a reward for learning how you'll generally kill that person in a 1v1 encounter unless they are competent enough. The magnum in combat evolved is also projectile based rather than hit-scan
Edit: Also keep in mind the kill times in general for Halo CE were faster than most of the other halo games, Halo 3 probably has the longest kill times, maybe reach.
I think that having consistent easy access to a skill cannon without requiring map knowledge or critical thinking is flawed game design, for the same reasons that the Halo 2 BR button combos were bad. It lessens the need for thought, and increases the need for aim. Why can't a good game pull off both?
Halo 2 BR button combos (bxr) were bad? Dude that in itself is a skill to pull off, let alone applying that into a match and it doesn't make power weapons less viable or map knowledge less important, map knowledge is still the most important thing in Halo. How does you being able to use a starter weapon everyone gets even correlate to map knowledge being less important? Do you really think a BR is going to beat a shotgun in close range or a sniper rifle at long range, or an insta kill rocket launcher? " It lessens the need for thought, and increases the need for aim." It does rely on both, especially high level play, go and watch any mlg tournament or in-general competitive play, the most important thing in any of the games is knowledge of the maps, that means weapon spawn locations, weapon spawn timers, and player spawn locations. It's an FPS of course aim is going to determine who win's in a fight and who doesn't, but that doesn't make map knowledge any less effective or less important. Idk what Halo game you've been playing the last 17 years but it's not the same me and plenty of other people have been playing.
I don't care what the lore says, I don't like being insta-killed by pistols. It doesn't feel good and I'll take a rifle as the utility weapon any day of the week.
The things we need (not want) in Halo:
1. Split-screen
Luckily 343 have confirmed that every FPS Halo game will have it going forward. Will it be 2 player split screen? Will it be campaign/multiplayer only? Who knows. They were not specific. Keep your wits up)
2. Elites
Since 343 took the reigns to Halo and made Halo 4 as their first title, playable Dino's have been absent from multiplayer. This goes with 343's current lack of customization. In this case, more is more. Unless it's Halo 5 "more", where you have skins and skins and skins of ugly armour for days... Just being back Dino's. Little kids, splitscreeners, and random bad kids alike will love you for it.
3. Everything "Halo" at launch...
Gametypes (Oddball, King of The Hill, Infection etc) ALL need to be there at launch, in a polished state. No shoehorning shit in way too late into your game's life cycle and just having them be renditions of prebuilt gametypes. It's lazy, it's unpolished, it's late, and it's a slap in the face.
Once those 3 things are covered (some things like dev made BTB maps too - something for casual and competitive alike), THEN start adding your own unique 343 touches; without fucking up things too much...
In my opinion, of course...
And no microtransactions
I agree with you 100%, especially on #2. I miss playing as an elite. I want to be a big, goofy alien. :U
In short
1. Splitscreen
2. Playable Elites in all game modes
3. A finished game
Seems like a good game play that’s looks to drive halo in the right direction but maybe some other ideas
4. Extensive customization. Having “more” could just mean more armor sets or skin which isn’t really what is wanted all the time but being able to customize every part of you spartan for head, shoulders, chest, forearms, legs, knees, visor, and emblems that you could create (similar to BO2 emblem editor)
5. Halo browser. Being able to download maps and game types in halo was great and allowed players to play some of the best custom games ever but imagine more, being able to download customized emblems, checking out different armor combinations before you bought armor(I mean this in the way halo Reach did credits not with micro transactions) etc
6. Armor customization for Elites? Maybe this is a stretch but Elites have been in halo since forever having them get the “full treatment” wouldn’t be too much to ask we’ve seen different types of elite armor but have only been given access to 5-6 types
No more releasing cut content 2 years later and pretending it's "new" and possible only through microtransactions.
GaryDX25 I would like a cosmetic system similar to what Titanfall 2 has; RNG, but easily unlockable through in game credits only given through matches and achievements
We need Dual Wield back it was so awesome for the most part! Deff worth having the option atleast..
So well put Favyn. Options like dual wield increasing spread and reload time could make things very interesting!
Strontiummuffin I don't know why 343i removed dual-wielding.
John Stuart might want to rewatch the video haha, these mechanics have downsides like adding a bit of consideration time to balancing so upsides and downsides for the 343 the downside being time
For the Plasma Pistol, you could make it so that you require both hands to over-charge it for its EMP effect, so that when you dual-wield, you can't over-charge it.
I think Ruby of Blue had the right idea. Bungie should've just left the damage for each gun alone, yet made the weapons more inaccurate when duel wielding. Now you have a risk reward system for more firepower at the cost of range/precision.
I think the other thing to keep in mind with dual wielding is what you give up - grenades. Grenades have to be useful if dual wielding is implemented again, because that trade-off needs to be dialed in just right. If grenades are almost useless due to low damage or being easily dodged, then why wouldn't a player dual wield at any opportunity? In my opinion, starting with Halo ODST, grenades have been getting weaker and less useful in Halo, especially once grenade proximity indicators on the HUD were introduced.
Halo 5 makes grenades really good. If anything they might be a bit too powerful. frags can easily bounce around cover and hitmarkers can tell you someone is there, splinter nades are good area denial and vehicle disablers, and plasma do what they always do but now they blind and can be used to launch weapons.
ODST's grenades are identical to Halo 3's. You just get 1 more of each and you throw them a little steeper/shorter. Halo CE had nukes, Halo 2's were also a little intense... Halo 3's were the best though. Halo 4's were firecrackers XD
I. Chrome Maybe it's just me, but I feel like ODST grenades do less damage. Maybe it's because brute armor is more like energy shields, but I don't know. Halo 2 grenades were decent for multiplayer, but in campaign they are shit. On heroic or legendary, if you don't land the stick with a plasma grenade, it does almost no damage. I agree that Halo 3 had the best grenades for both campaign and multiplayer. In Reach grenades seem weak, especially in campaign. And yes, in Halo 4 grenades are basically visual effects.
ColoradoCamper they were pretty useful in Halo 3s campaign.
I wish Halo had its own version of an indicator, rather than copy from other modern shooters. It'd be cool if it was a feature of the motion tracker, able to to detect incoming nades and rockets, with an aircraft-like warning alarm. On the one hand, it's far more accurate than a standard grenade indicator, but on the other hand it takes a few milliseconds longer to see where the nade is.
I kept going off in my own head with ideas throughout this video. Kept having to rewind. This is what you do to me Favyn... and I like it.
Fav I just have to say you are seriously a genius when it comes to game design. You deserve a spot in 343 because your love for Halo is clear as day and your ideas are all great. Love the channel man, I hope one day a studio can recognize you and give you a spot there. I have no doubt you would make one hell of a game.
Iko The Hunter A nugget of gold in a pile of shit doesn't change the fact that it's a pile of shit.
As someone who is anti dual-wield, this is the absolute best defensive case for dual wielding I've seen. The Halo CE Weapon sandbox has always been my favorite, primarily because of the utility aspect of many of the weapons.
Combining the concept of utility weapons with dial wielding is VERY interesting, but certainly would be difficult to implement without developing powerful metas.
343i produced a very well balanced weapon sandbox in halo 5 ( I would have loved to see more utility weapons). But half the guns are redundant ( how many rifles are there?) And think about how long it took them to address the balancing concerns between the AR and the SMG. I'm not saying that weapon balance has to be conducted like it was in Halo 5, but given the amount of time it took 343 to address it's automatic weapon balancing issues, it does not instill faith in me that they could adequately balance dual wielding in the manner you prescribed.
If they can pull it off, bring it. That kind of game sounds super fun.
It would take creativity for sure but thats what game designers are payed for. I myself am just brainstorming how many possible ways you could implement what favyn stated, its a fun challenge imo.
El Killer Taco It would certainly be a cool say to make Halo way more interactive than before, and still feel like halo
Some balancing suggestions for duel-wielding:
Duel plasma rifles- If both weapons are overheated, it will damage your own shields (twice the heat exhaust=harm). Up to 25% shield damage, will not affect health.
Duel SMG's- H3 recoil, however single SMG has no recoil.
Duel pistols- Same as your example
Duel Needlers/Mauler- No reload
Duel Plasma Pistols- If both are charged at the same time, you will strip your own shields and disable any shield, equipment, or vehicle next to you (5 ft.).
Duel Anything- 50% normal melee damage, but has more knockback (use right stick to melee while dueling).
@Smugglerscomedy Because I use Boxer as my control scheme. Also, I don't want to drop my dueled weapon while using melee. BTW, totally forgot I made this comment. I feel sad now, because I almost literally forgot about Halo.
dual wielding was such a cool feature, and frankly so few game actually have it as a feature now, and even when they do its usually a set pair of guns you can dual wield, like uzis. in halo you could mix n match tons of stuff.
You're probably the most intelligent person I've ever listened to when it came to video game balancing like holy shit you're awesome
I've never looked at duel wielding this was before. Brilliant video!
Yup, well stated as usual. Bringing up the fact that the community and developers seem to only gauge a weapon's usefulness according to it's TTK instead of utility and unique traits is a great thing to highlight. Mentioning the needler in Halo 3 as a non-dual wieldable weapon is also noteworthy.
Great job!
One of your best videos/discussions. You examined both sides equally.
I love your videos man. Excellent, clear, to-the-point commentary. I love the design of Halo, and how it's design lends itself to an interesting and all encompassing sandbox (one of many brilliant elements of the franchise). Great, complex games such as Battlefield, Counter-Strike, Overwatch, etc. can't have a sandbox as unique as Halos. It's as if Halo's core gameplay is a perfect, consistent FPS canvas. No bunny-hopping/weird movement gimmicks (sprint included), lots of TTK to work with, very visually clean too.
I can listen to you talk to halo all day
Dual Wielding overhaul: When you dual wield two weapons you can melee with them and store them in your back pocket, but their melee damage is significantly decreased, you cannot throw grenades with them equipped and you can only have 1 pair of dual wielded weapons on you at a time. Also, it takes longer to draw a dual wielded pair of weapons from your back pocket than if they were being used on their own.
Magnum: Like you said in the video- utility of being really fast to draw with a high fire rate, fast reload and a scope, but significantly weaker than say the BR damage wise. When dual wielded the fast draw is none existent nor the scope and a slightly longer reload time is applied.
SMG: Utility of being the fastest reloading and firing automatic weapon in the game, and steadily decreasing accuracy; in Halo's engagements players can use up a lot of rounds in order to kill another player- if the SMG reloaded faster it would have the utility of having less down-time between fights than any other weapon. When dual wielded the reload time is significantly longer and the weapon is always at it's most inaccurate bloom.
Mauler: Instead of firing hit scan projectiles it now fires 4 plasma bolts per trigger pull that are very weak against health but great against shields; when used on it's own, if all 4 plasma bolts in a shot hit the same target the mauler gains a melee damage bonus, allowing the user to kill the target with a single follow-up melee. When dual wielded, it's still a shotgun against shields, but it loses the melee damage bonus.
Spiker: When used on it's own, the spiker has an increased melee lunge distance and successfully landing a melee with it makes it's projectiles home-in on enemies for a short period of time. This makes the spiker the best weapon in the game hunting down an enemy that's trying to flee (bar the energy sword). When dual wielded, the bonus melee lunge distance no longer applies, but a successful melee hit when dual-wielding it will still cause it's projectiles to home.
Plasma Pistol: Same as it always has been except, when dual wielded, the homing effect of it's charged bolt is significantly nerfed, making dual-wielded noob combos take a little more skill.
Plasma Rifle: On its own it stuns and slows players as it did in Halo CE and can rip through shields, but is terrible against health. When dual wielded however it's stunning ability is severely dampened.
really like the magnum utility portion of this video. Think Destiny's sandbox.
Say you have 2 Hand Cannons you are considering for a Crucible match. Weapon A has better range and mag size, and is currently a meta weapon in terms of hand cannons, but Weapon B has high caliber rounds on it and okay stats. While Weapon A has better stats and pumps out more damage, weapon B's high-cal rounds may find more use to you since it'll flinch the enemy more.
A weapon's balance is more than it's damage value and TTK.
Love the ideas you presented here. I always thought the D.W. mechanic could have been done better, but until this video, I wasn't sure how.
Hey man well said. Really nice job on this video, you made me think of dual wielding in a different way than I even realized it could be thought of. I like the way you presented your points and looked at it from all angles of the situation!
Would definitely enjoy talking with you over rounds of halo 3
I suggest balancing dual wielding in a very specific way. Reduce accuracy when firing both weapons significantly. If alternately fired, it should face no penalty outside of lack of zoom. It effectively lets you have extended mags so you can fire more with less reload. It'll never beat a shotgun at close range.
Your videos excite my body
Another glorious favyn video. Continue to produce, I continue to worship.
Wonderful video, as always. I am someone who has always liked the idea of dual wielding, but has never liked its implementation. This video gives me hope that maybe one day, we can see dual wielding significantly alter the sandbox in a positive manner.
Do what bungie did in halo 3, make a non dual wield sandbox balance( including dual wieldable weapons ), then balance all of the wieldable combinations as if they were single weapons.
I like how he basically spends the first part of the video explaining the main flaw in SPV3's weapon sandbox (which is weapon redundancy)
And the SPV3 sandbox doesn't even *have* dual wielding.
Brilliant. Dual wielding is badass, and this would be a perfect way to implement it.
Great video and great points as always. This video made me want dual wielding even more.
Great video both in terms of the idea and execution , as always
Great idea! If every weapon had a unique trait or utility like in CE & Reach while considering Halo 5's huge weapon variety 343i could do a lot of interesting balance & combos. Definitely would like Dual-Wield make a comeback!
I used to love running around with double pistols or pistol smg combo! I hope they bring it back!
My concept was for an alternative way to implement Duel Wielding in the Halo 5 setting, was as a Req weapon, already giving you two SMGs that are one weapon in terms of coding but visually two weapons in terms of physically shooting them. Beyond that, I could not think of anyway to implement duel wielding, but as a wanna be game designer, this challenges my way of thinking significantly.
I love this perspective on seeing dual wield. I find it interesting and want to see it in halo 6 beta.
Innovating through your sandbox the good example of this is good welding
This may sound over ambitious but If I were to bring dual wield back I would experiment this
This can be done with the Spiker, plasma pistol, plasma rifles, pistol, Mauler
>Faster fire rate
>Melee gets swapped with a slow roundhouse kick
>Decrease weapon accuracy
>Bullets now fire and most effect in close range
>Armor abilities cannot be used
>You can jump over a players head and do the same spin shooting that chief did in the package from halo Legends but it can be only done once because it would shower a lot of bullets everywhere draining 70% of ammo. When spinning your upside down in FP aiming it can be adjusted in 3rd person or FP.
Is this a good idea? what can be improved?
I'm late to this channel...as an original halo fan that still enjoyed halo 4 (but less so 5) I really appreacite the depth of analysis here. I play Destiny 2 these days, but these vids serve to remind me why I played Halo and I can only hope people with your perspective (which I'm certain exist in 343) have a voice in Halo Infinite...I may be able to move on from Destiny, but at present it seems I'm more Bungie than "halo"
As long as energy swords are dual-wieldable in your idea of how to balance them out, I'm game.
Seriously though, nice vid.
I’m for some reason when playing halo I thought that all the non power weapons like the AR, BR, Magnum, etc had a balancing criteria that included body shot damage, rate of fire, and range/purpose.
I would guess that a BR would be better at medium and long range compared to an AR but when both are doing body shots only it seems like it takes roughly the same time to kill so I always thought they do the same amount of damage just with different purposes like an AR would usually outperform a BR at close range without headshots but that’s because it’s meant for close range where as a BR would outperform an AR because it has more range and accuracy seeing as it’s meant for longer range combat.
Based if that I never really felt that dual wielding was such a problem because yeah you pump out more bullets to do more damage faster but usually weapons allowed to dual wield would most always beat you in the situation it’s meant for.
SMGs can be dual wielded but they already are meant for close range so if you have a BR and you’re only doing body shots whether single or dual wield I felt as though the SMG would win at close range.
Bringing in other factors such as headshots and melee dual wielding is actually more of a set back than advantage cause think. You lose smartlink availability, the dual wielded weapons aren’t very good at longer range, and you have to drop the weapon to melee, all the cons for higher DPS or a quicker combo than switching out. Given the combos are good like plasma pistol emp with a magnum or a plasma rifle and SMG(one to eat shields the other to eat health) that’s still not a good trade off if your enemy has long range
I actually want dual wielding to return it made the things experience better and if things turn out well maybe there will be a way to sprint into a slide while blasting away with dual SMGs. Think of that in your mind, now put the sliding and shooting in slow motion. Looks awesome
Great video as always!
A thing that no one really thinks about, but is the most annoying inconvenience in the modern Halos is the horrible idea of putting cool downs on every mounted gun. Seriously, play Halo Reach through 5 and tell me you enjoy it. The chainguns or plasma canons never needed balancing, and had been balanced since Halo CE, as they were extremely accurate but could be fired indefinitely. Then Bungie added it to Reach which made playing the gunner of a wharthogs significantly less fun. Now, regarding Scorpion tanks. If the chaingun was still under the driver's control as we saw in CE and 2, then I could see them wanting to limit it's ability to have both the main canon and chaingun firing at the same time. But with the system of the gunner being separate, and no especially since the gunner can only fire in a 180 degree arc in front of the tank, why does it need a cool down meter? It's tedious.
The solution for dual wielding is literally so simple. Just keep the same damage, but make the accuracy and range lower. Simple as that.
You gain the firepower of two weapons, but it becomes extremely inaccurate.
but thats uninteresting. utility is whats interesting and provides depth
Bignaaasty Favyn brought up the pistol utility thing as an example *on it's own* but then stated that the reason why it would balance the dual wielding is that it would lose it's utility for extra firepower. So his point still isn't much different from mine. The lower accuracy could work for weapons that's hard to have utility for, like the smg (^: Things like pistols can maintain accuracy, but just lose the quick draw utility.
why make the range and accuracy lower though? why change the gun at all? dual wieldable guns cant be really good by themselves for risk of being op. so thats why he talked about utility. it doesnt have to be about killing things. you make duel wieldable guns useful because of their utility. not their ttk. like the plasma pistol. weak gun but has very useful attributes. when dual wielded the gun is twice as powerful but its still weak but thats fine cause its utility is so good. say the smg is a weak gun in general but maybe you give it some fancy utility attribute that makes it really useful in a common situation. now the gun is worth using while not duel wielded. but if you duel wield it its not op cause the base guns ttk is still weak. its utility is what made it a good gun. its not about its ttk its about how useful it can be.
Bignaaasty The plasma pistol doesn't get double the power when dual wielded with something else. It just makes it easier to pop off a headshot without switching guns if you're wielding it with a pistol. Even if you are wielding two plasma pistols, two fully charged shots is still only going to take out the shields, and maybe hurt the guy a little. When it comes to the smg, doesn't it make sense? You'll holding two fully automatic weapons, it only makes sense that you would become less accurate. But see, that doesn't effect the time to kill of the gun man. I'm not saying change the damage stats of the smg. But if you're holding TWO smgs, that is basically double the damage. Even without any altering to the gun, it's still double damage just because you're firing two guns at the same time. They can just combat this by making it less accurate, so yeah you can shred people faster, but you have to be closer. Again, with your point with ttk, it's not altering the guns damage. Also like Favyn said, it can be different for each gun. This was just my example with the smg. The pistol quickdraw utility makes sense, but it's a bit harder to apply a "unique attribute" to an average automatic unsc gun.
You seem as well educated as always Favyn. What is your experience in terms of game design? You seem like someone who's seen a thing or two.
I'll throw another idea out there in the wild: Would it be compelling if you have dual wieldable weapons which, once combined, give you a slight advantage as a player? On their own, however, these are supposed to be not really effective. Imagine having 2 SMGs on Truth. One is located on Blue Street and the other would be found on the other side of the map at Red Car Street. If someone assembles both of them, then you should have an advantage in CQBs.
You make me feel sooo much better about myself. I'm pretty bad at Halo and it makes me feel bad when halo youtubers flaunt how AWESOME they are at the game. You're still MILES better than me, but it isn't like 30-1 kill-death ratio.
You know how the damage tables make it so Covenant weapons usually do more damage to shields than to armor (in general, just look at the plasma weapons)? I think UNSC weapons should have balanced damage proportions, while Promethean weapons should be shit to shields but disintegrate Spartans extremely fast! Headshots will still reign supreme, but it'll differentiate the Promethean arsenal more than just "Oooo floaty-bits, oooo tracking rounds".
I think you are one of my new favorite youtuber!
In the theam of utility, the s meg's might be it's large mag that lasts long and has a lot of extra ammo in resurves ratio compared to other weapons.
awesome video man
insightful as always
Take Skyrim's magic as an example. The three destruction magic types (fire, frost, and shock) did the same thing on their own. They killed stuff. But it was the secondary effects that made them different. Fire did more damage via burning. Frost drained stamina and slowed opponents down. Shock drained magicka, making invaluable to use against a mage. 343 can learn from this.
Imagine a gun like the Sticky Detonator (which was a great weapon btw) where instead of a launching a grenade, shot a probe that slowed the target by say 50% for 10 seconds. This could be used on flag carriers, sword/hammer carriers, VEHICLES maybe. The point is, its a new gun that MAY actually work well in the sandbox.
To be honest, there was a gun that actually sort of achieved this. Can you guess? It was the Concussion Rifle, one of the things Reach did right. A solid gun that wasn't too OP. Its killing power was reasonable, but what made it interesting was how it had considerable push back on the target. Infantry would be pushed back, vehicles would be tossed. These gimmick made the CR an invaluable tool in the right situations.
I have no idea why 343 removed it. I really don't.
Let's take it further. What if this gun made people move faster for a short period of time. You shoot a teammate and they get this buff. This creates a SUPPORT role for the game. Now if a friends has a shotgun, you can give them a quick speed boost before entering combat so they can close the distance on an enemy. This can be balanced by the fact that it is not only useless on enemies, but harmful to your team if you miss and hit an enemy. Also, this can be a one shot weapon so the entire team (except the weapon holder) doesn't have attribute buffs. This doesn't even need to be limited to speed increases. It can be a 5 second damage multiplier or increase jump height. The possibilities are endless.
If anybody has any good gun ideas that expand beyond "does more damage" leave them here. Hopefully Favyn will make a video about them. Also I'd love to see what ideas you have.
Worth noting that the assault rifle was not removed for balance, but for aestethics. In Halo 1 you have a precision pistol, and spray and pray rifle,a nd no true sidearm. In Halo 2 you have a precision rifle, a spray and pray smg, and a pistol that is a proper sidearm that can complement another weapon in dual wielding. This was just to make it feel more realistic and intuitive.
I have an Idea for the SMG...
Alright so let's say the SMG is strong on it's own, about the strength it had in H2A maybe a little more but when dual wielded it's strong enough to go get a 50/50 win rate versus a shotgun close to mid range. Now let's say we put that gun on a map, one in each base, on it's own it's still worth picking up but now we also put another SMG on the map in a more neutral spawning location and bam. We've just made completely new and unique power weapon.
Great video btw
Why are there so many good videos discussing the depth of Halo?
Aya ya Because Halo is a subject whose depth has yet to be spanned.
You made some outstanding points.
I'd much rather talk about cool new ideas for Halo than rehash tired arguments about why things suck so we must never ever have them again; so this was a welcome change of pace, and a pretty interesting one at that. Weapon utility and how dual weapons can share or remove attributes beyond the typical damage/ammo/spread traits sounds like just the kind of creative interaction to bring it back. In fact, Halo Legends (Origins Part 1) had Forerunner sword-type weapons that, when placed side by side, could share energy with other swords to fire a twirling forked energy beam to do massive damage, I imagine dual-wielding these swords would create a similar effect. Maybe you could even strengthen the beam with more people standing next to you with their swords, give it a teamwork aspect. Who knows what combining the Forerunner sword with a Plasma Pistol or another energy weapon could do? Of course, there's still the matter of how a single Forerunner sword in the sandbox would compare to a single Covenant Energy Sword; I'm just spitballing here.
Thank you! Seriously, Dual Wielding *can* work, it just needs to be redefined.
i don't understand why it was taken out? why would you get rid of features in future installments?
Adam Wiley In the Making of Halo 3 documentary, Bungie employees described how they felt dual wielding messed with the sandbox in Halo 2, and how the Assault Rifle in Halo 3 was an attempt to reduce dual wielding in multiplayer. Then, by the time Reach came around, it had been completely done away with.
The fact that most people believe the Needler in Halo 2 is trash (granted that's pretty true lol), it's a contributing factor for what leads me to getting kills with it. It works surprisingly well as a suppressive weapon. And any stationary snipers are demolished by it. In general, I just love the added rate of fire dual-wielding provides. It's just plain cool :)
Playing H5 for the first time, the gunfighter magnum was just such a cool weapon to me, I think it should have a different name as it pretty much isn't a magnum in terms of damage output and its appearance looks like a slightly more modified modern pistol.
Could you do a video on mod support for halo 6 ad future halo games? Like Bethesda, imagine the creativity and amount of ppl that'd play if mods were introduced with a more expanded forge.
In general I feel like dual wielding gives the player more options, which is good. You can’t throw grenades when you dual wield, and the range on most of the dual wielded weapons isn’t great. You can combine pistol and an energy weapon to get quick headshots, you can be deadly in close with dual smgs, you can make a hail of projectiles with dual plasmas. Just seems like an all around good thing
i agree, 343 might take themselves too seriously at times. dual wielding maulers was a blast!
Treat it as a single weapon with two fire modes: Simultaneous fire and alternating fire.
Melee is a kick and nades lower one weapon(on screen) but don't drop it.
For the pistol use the Spv3 idea of slowing fire rate when dual wielded.
You're fucking brilliant dude. Love your videos. If they don't implement duel wielding the way you proposed, they could do a less creative route by making some weapons dual wield only. They would not be able to smart link and have a slower reload time but the up sides are more bullets down stream than normal weapons and maybe you can shoot one while meleeing with the other. Plus since you always have 2 weapons when holding these dual wield only's, you burn through ammo more. It also allows for weapon variety. There could be 2 smgs, one that shoots slower and has a scope and one that shoots faster, only dual wieldable, and less damage. That's a part of another idea I had for weapon variety and halos art style but I wont get into it.
Side note: how cool would it be if the last mission of the campaign u got dual wield rocket launchers or Spartan lasers just for the fun of it, obviously not something that would be ok in mp
Favyn- I just found you're channel yesterday (you can thank Act Man) and I have to say, you've impressed me as a Halo fan, researcher and speaker. You actively try to point out issues, but you take a step further and actually try to offer solutions to these problems instead of just whining like a lot of other reviewers.
Which brings me to my point. You have stated time and time again that changing the core mechanics is detrimental to Halo's gameplay. You suggested that 343 should focus on creating new and innovative sandbox elements that create new encounters but keep the flow of the game the same. So I had an idea and would like your opinion on it.
WHAT IF we had armor abilities (like Reach and H4) but instead of systems that are stuck with your character, they act behave like power ups or pick ups (equipment H3)?
Basically they would spawn on the map like anything else, and when you pick it up, it stays in your "inventory" (for lack of a better term), for say a minute. So if you have Armor Lock (not that anyone wants Armor Lock to return), you can only have it for 1 minute before you can no longer access the ability and have to get another item. Or if you have Jet Pack, you get some extra mobility for a while, but you have to be careful not to be in lethal areas (pits/killzones) when it wears off.
OR this could be applied to sprint. A single player on the field having access to sprint or a short period. This could definitely create so interesting scenarios where an enemy has the sword, but you have sprint and he doesn't so you can escape him.
Now I know that this would cause issues with map creating since the devs would want to make areas where these abilities can shine. But what do you think? Could this work?
--Thanks for the good content. Stay Clear and Concise.
Good point. Forgot about that. XD
343 will fuck it up guaranteed
This was going to added as well but dual wielding swords would be interesting and would allow creative options
Could dual wield energy swords work like this?
You cannot throw grenades instead you hold the swords in a X pose and your shielded and no small arms fire can damage you, but while your shielding and getting shot, your sword ammo depletes, when getting shot it goes down slow but being shot using continuous X pose the sword energy will indeed drop like a rock. and earn the achievement "Out of batteries pal"
I didn't add too much because id like to see how this would work in all the Halo FPS games.
But I love your idea for the magnums quickdraw utility
UTILITY FOR THE WEAPONS
All zoom functions are removed when dueling
-Pistol, When single weapon it has a quick draw/weapon swap when dueling
-Spiker, when single weapon it has a quicker melee animation and does slightly more damage (still does not a one hit though).
-Plasma rifle, When single the weapon does not slow down its rate of fire anywhere near as much as it always has. Also in single mode its cool down phases is significantly shorter (explanation for this would be Masterchief has a free hand that allows him to press a rapid cooling button on it)
-Needler, Massively reduced needle lock range and locking strength when dueling
-Plasma pistol, no difference between dueling and not dueling
-SMG, i cant think of anything other than stupidly in accurate when dueling?
-Mauler, needs a total redesign as it has always just been a crappier shotgun
-bolt pistol, needs a total redesign because its homing function feels shit to play against. I say remove it from the game personally.
Any other suggestions
Honestly the Boltshot was a good and interesting weapon in H4. The problem was being able to spawn with it. H5's version of it lame. It's just a short range BR that has lock-on.
EDIT: I think the Boltshot should replace the Scattershot as the Promethean shotgun. The SS doesn't bring anything new to the able except the ricochet effect, but let's be honest here. Who actually uses that effect?
Favyn You said in previous videos that no Halo game has done the sandbox right. I curious as to what Halo sandbox you think came the closest to nailing it?
A fun idea would be to make dual wielding almost like a power weapon like "oh shit that guys dual wielding" then make a one life gametype with no weapons on the map with dual wield able weapons so if someone dies not only is it 3v4 but now there's a power weapon sitting on the floor and either team can go for it
Hey man, Spiker + Silenced SMG every day, best weapon combo N/A.
Also the last new thing dual wielding was in was the H2A multiplayer, it kinda sucks no one really played that.
Favyn is always so smart!
This is actually pretty damn clever.
Always AWESOME stuff!
will you make any video on spv3.1?
@favyn, do you write out these discussion in any format or do you just start talking?
Hightened recoil, bloom, reload times, and melee delay would be a start.
Maybe lower movement speed/look sensitivity while firing- like the H3 flamethrower.
Perhaps lower projectile speed varying on weapon- green gun charge most of all. Longer bloom reset times for precision weapons.
Could this work?
Never really thought about how halo 2 doesn't have the assault rifle... don't know how I didn't notice that.
I think the balance with dueled plasma weapons should be overheating being dangerous to the user if both weapons are overheated, draining some of your own shields. Dueled SMG's should have more upward recoil when dueled with another weapon. Needlers cannot be reloaded when dueled (it's a friggin' crystal that shatters into the weapon, it's not a magazine). Maulers slow you down while being dueled and fired. These weaknesses mix and match, for example during an SMG/Plasma rifle combo, you will get both the shield overheat and recoil debuffs, because you need a free hand to open the plasma weapon to cool.
Duel wielding was good in h2 because the only guns that could be duel wielded were short range so you’d have to decide whether to use your assault rifle or rely on short range combat
Ok I have an idea that would make logical sense for the PR to lose its stun ability when dual wielded, you need 2 hands to hold the gun while its firing the stun bullets but when you dual wield you lower the strength of the gun so you can shoot it without kick. Idk maybe before you start dual wielding it plays an animation that turns a knob on the plasma rifle or something.
Maybe use Halo 3s system as a canvas and alter them slightly?
I loved duel wielding I would be awesome in a classic gameplay war zone we could even make crazy changes in war zone like duel wielding energy swords or snipers and crazy stuff campaign too it would make chief better than doom guy
At 3:20 in the gameplay i could see u say to yourself screw duel wielding its shotgun time
For the smgs they could make it viable by itself but even stronger when duel wielded but less range than the shotgun
I wouldn't mind if duel-wielding returned as a power-up or armor ability. Kind of like a Halo equivalent to the Quad Damage from Doom.
Haven't watched the video, but I think a great way to make it work would be the ability to switch weapon without dropping your dual-wielded weapon.
Edit: Your pistol idea makes me more confident in my idea. The faster swap could be a trait shared by most dual-wieldables, but when you have both you switch at normal or even decreased speed.
I thought you were gonna talk about classic playlists in halo 5, since they turned out pretty decent
I honestly feel like Halo wouldn't be too bad if they removed the COD aiming with gun thing. I'm not against it, but I'm just saying it wouldn't be horrible if it didn't have the "smart zoom" thing.
this needs more views
Here is a thing i always wonder, you guys ever noticed how the last game of each dev (bungie and Epic games) didn't do so well/received by fans well. They changed to core gameplay!!(No shit)Halo 4/5 like Gears of War judgment was a major let down and it died off really fast and people went back to GOW3/Reach. everything from the movement to the characters was changed(no more Locust for Gears of War in its MP/ No more elites for Halo) Fast forward to TC and you noticed in the making of Gears Of War 4 video they talk about how "we are not going to change the Core game play just fine tune it so its feels a lot more smoother, and lot more natural to move around the map, And Change/Tune the weapons so one does't feel more power full than the other (except the gnasher that's always been like that lol) . To this date Gears of War 4 is my favorite MP of all the Gears games right next to gears of war 1. (except these micro transactions!! Killing the game, like most are) Now in Bungies case and 343's, Halo reach started all the changes and it was a 50/50 reception at best for me, bloom and amour abilities where there but i felt like some of its core was still prominent since some of the playlist disabled those abilities. However unlike TC, 343 instead of going back to the Core game play, they kept changing everything they could so its feels like a totally different game and not Halo any more!! TC didn't continue where Judgment left off! It went back to its roots and it worked out wonderful, what I don't understand is why cant 343 say Fuck it! lest just go back to basics! I'm sure Halo would be a lot more successful by now, but I don't know i'm just an old fan of a game that's is Basic Core gameplay I fell in love with. :)
I hope 343 is subbed to you!
Lightsaber they should do it, but probably they only sub "how to not give a f" channel ;)
This is really is a great video.