Intercoolers : Air to Water vs Air to Air for a Street Car
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2019
- What works best for a street car? Air to Air or Air to Water Intercoolers? This is not an easy question to answer as there are many factors that go into this decision. Watch the video for my thoughts on how to determine what is best for you.
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My introduction to intercooling was done when I read Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost".
The explination here is great. I think that you want to "over engineer" the efficiency of the heat dissipation of the coolant running through the IC. I'm running a bullet style IC on my air cooled VW Beetle with a 1.9 ltr Porsche 914 four banger.. Audi B5 S4 coolant pump, 1/2" coolant lines to a self purging resevoir tank from a Passat. Compact radiator with twin fans and thermo switch for the fans. When I'm in stop and go traffic, the twin 5" Spal puller fans turn on. My radiator is behind the front grill of my Super Beetle. Great airflow. On the highway they turn off. I run G13 (pink coolant with distilled water)
In the California San Joaquin Valley it gets very hot in the Summer. We see 110* temps. My intake temps after the IC are never greater than ambient temp. Usually they're cooler. It's like I'm at sea level all the time, so the air intake charge is super cool and dense. I run 91 on the street. Plans are to be able to switch back and forth between E85 and pump gas and add water injection as a safety measure as well.
Well engineered charge cooling is like having MORE cake.
Thanks didn't realize how common air to water was 😮😮😮😮. Makes so much sense. External cooling bricks for turbos and super chargers have them already🙌
Well that made my decision I'll be using an air to air intercooler. My three cylinder Geo Metro with turbocharged Chevy Sprint engine is going to be a canyon car. Like most of us we want to keep our weight down. I don't want to have to fuss with things. Thanks for helping me!
Another good and informative video. Keep them coming.
I like using the plastic ice packs for the water tank with the antifreeze. Never any issues with corrosion or freezing in the winter.
I have barrel air to water from PWR here in Australia. Fantastic fabrication work.
Hows it go? Im considering one, unsure if it is worth it
Thank you for mentioning the fact that, as far as water-flow goes in an A2W system, the faster the better, the more flow volume the better. I still find a lot of misconceptions and myths lingering...
I loved this video PBD.
I always heard of a water to air intercooler, I didn't know what it was until now 😅 I'm always learning 😁
What a good video, learnt a lot
my goal would be water to air and a universal chiller kit. with a heat exchanger.
only can do this if you still have an a/c compressor though.
Great info!
So, question. My truck has a horribly designed cooling system from the factory (Ram 1500 Ecodiesel). The intercooler heat soaks the radiator, which then heats up the oil. It has an oil to water oil cooler, so the oil temps shoot up with the coolant temps. I'm wanting to move the intercooler out from in front of the radiator, but have been going back and forth about mounting a smaller air to water intercooler down behind the bumper, which doesn't allow airflow, and then placing a smaller heat exchanger up in front of the radiator that won't take as much space, and will hopefully cause less heat soak when towing as the current intercooler causes. What are your thoughts on doing something like that? I tow quite a bit, and see temps much higher than I'd like to with my oil (250+) and also my intake air temps will hit 130-140, which I know isn't super hot for racing, but this also causes my EGTs to spike when towing.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
Ok things to help
Downside to air to air. About 5 degrees over ambient is the best you’ll get with it and it might heat soak.
Higher pressure drop
Upside. It’s significantly lighter
Downside to air to water
Weight, relying on an electric pump that can fail and cause incredibly high temps and knock
Upsides.
Sub ambient cooling with ice
Less chance of heat soak
Shorter charge pipes and better packaging
flatplanefool e85 or meth on tap or both with air to air
crown Victoria lifestyle run on straight meth and you can make the intake sweat... but for a daily having secondary fuels are a bad idea in my opinion too much stuff to fail an blow your engine up.
flatplanefool no no no pump e85 is the primary fuel which as he stated has its own intake air charge cooling properties
The meth can be set to different settings to turn on and they also come with different nozzles so you don't have to spray a massive amount of meth on top of e85 just like anything the combination is key when I do my 4 valve swap jt- b trim that will be my recipe without having to worry about bags of ice, pumps and more hoses that add weight to the vehicle
a simple one gallon meth Reservoir will be enough for many runs
flatplanefool I probably confused you with my original comment my comment was have meth on tap I wasn't saying run meth by itself I was stating run the meth with the E85 or no meth or both
Basically keep you a spare pump if you go out driving
Very helpful thank you.
Im building a ka24 swapped 1984 datsun4x4 and dont have a lot of room up front for an intercooler. While probably only ending up around 400whp i was thinking air-to-water to try and save room. I have room for a second radiator if stacked on my normal one. But not enough for a 3 inch thick intercooler.
Does this seem like unnecessary complication for a lower hp street car or should i go for it
Thoughts on inter chiller for ‘19 S550 with gen 5 whipple? Not really related I guess.
Great video
Ok my question is high load low speed, ie 4x4 what is going to work the best. Finding hard as everything is based off hi speed hi air flow. Thanks
I just realized that car enthusiasts are so closely related to pc enthusiasts.
Performance is important and heat will throttle performance.
But forcing more performance in exchange for more heat is also a worth it exchange. Especially if you can decrease the heat with aftermarket coolers.
Not to mention the simple facts of water cooling being more reliable and more effective at higher temperatures. With being more expensive, having more risk involved, and having more effort to install and maintain.
what off the shelf intercooler would you recommend for a '14' R8 V8 running the TTS twin rotax supercharger system... also what off the shelf charge cooler? Their system, which I like, does not fit the Gen 1 facelift versions (the charge cooler). So I can pick it up at a discount but have to come up with my own charge cooler solution... and since I'm shooting for 750 bhp I just thought I'd ask. I try googling for 800-900 hp intercoolers for R8 V8 and I just get custom stuff.
"This could be a 20 min video" lol
Yeah but he had to dumb it down for the retards...
Jeremy Mejia I got one bye chiseled performance
Brian Winsett all of us were retards to this crap at one time😂
Jeremy Mejia 19:30 lol
@@brianwinsett1103 SHIT! He dumbed this down for the Retards retarded kids...
Hi, I have golf 7 1.4 tsi. Integrate in the engine Air water intercooler. My idea is to add another radiator another water pump and another liquid tray and make it work with those. Turbo lag exactly the same as stock but more less degres.
What are your thoughts about a air to air with a intercooler sprayer on a street car.
Why isn't there an air(charge pipe) to water(cooler) to air(outside air flow over fins) cooler. That would combine the performance/benefits of both and run your water lines to the cars coolant while still having a rad maybe thinned down a little to fit what I assume will take up more room intercooler but run colder Temps for sure. Everyone knows when you run air over something wet it'll cool the best.
Would you keep the heat exchanger if it’s a street driven car? Car will have a 7 gallon tank with 2000 pump.
What do you think of intercooler sprayers like cry02 or nos etc places in front of air to air intercooler
why do you dump it on the ground? im kinda missing that is it to make room in the tank for ice?
hey thanks for info, Im coming from bmw world,
just a quick question, for race car, the reason to run air to air would be that its lighter setup and they dont have to worry about long term health of their engines? is that why do they dont run air to water? am I missing anything?
Would air to water be ok for my daily supercharged silverado? I do make 3-5 hour trips on the weekends.
Please can I get some advise.
Is it possible to have post watercooler air temp at 15°c lower than ambient? Using only tap water.
And preboost is about 30°c air temp.
And I'm adding about 4°c water temp across my FM heat exchanger, while this is all happening.
And it's a k20 supercharged engine. All happens at about 15psi.
K type sensors from PLX used.
Compressing air adds heat - so the air going into the intercooler has already been heated above ambient. There are some neat air to water intercooling systems where an AC evaporator is put into the tank with the water to keep the water cold. When you cool the air down you will lose pressure - but that doesn't mean you are losing air density. Most things are possible.
So when you are just daily driving on air to water, you can safely put anti freeze in?
Great info. Would like some info on methanol with centrifugal blowers and roots. I know roots blowers from reading it is not a good setup to run meth for cooling
Thanks for the info keep them coming.. I have a Hellion SS 64/66 pushing 20+psi do you think I should upgrade the Intercooler to a bigger one or go Air to water ? Roll racing mostly not a drag car . Thanks
If you plan to use ice, I would go for the air to water. With no ice, I'd stick with the air to air.
@@PalmBeachDyno Did you run through any high IATs on the one you pushed to 1400whp on hellion intercooler ?
Can I put radiator coolent inside the air-to-water intercooler?
I’m running a 4.5l L Whipple it’s making around 1350 wheel horsepower now would a ice tank help make more power on the Dyno? And if so how much would you think?
Most likely wouldn't show much on the dyno but would make the power more consistent when and if you ever run the car at that power level. Like if you took it to a half mile event, an ice set would be very important on your car
Very informative!
I run an air to water exchanger that has the suction/return line from the air conditioner integrated into the reservoir. Obviously it cools down to a nice chill but isn't for everyones setup. The head pressures on the condensor are raised but not problematic.
Very well explained with thanks. So throwing ice out of the equation, is air-to-air the best option for a street car with less than 1000 whp?
Thanks. Yes, as long as it's a good air to air, I think it's the best option for under 1000 hp if you aren't considering ice
@@PalmBeachDyno Appreciate the response.
Thanks for tackling this complex issue.
You neglect packaging, which is another reason so many factory cars run air to water. The low temp radiator is much smaller than an air to air heat exchanger and fits more heat dissipation capacity under the bumper. Factory body work limits the available space due to cosmetic and safety/bumper as well as AC condensor constraints. So retrofitting air to water makes better use of the frontal area available on the car than an air to air. More fin area per square inch of cooling airflow. That is why I went with A2W.
Also it would be great to see some numbers on how to size the low temp radiator for various duty cycles, according to desired boost level and mass of combustion airflow (i.e. how to size the low temp radiator according to the heat load from the charge air). I see horsepower ratings on a2w cores all the time but none of them seem to care whether the car is running 3.5bar boost or 2bar. The amount of heat dissipation required for higher boost is much higher. No one ever talks about how big the radiator needs to be, or at least what the fin area should be, or how thick the radiator should be. Ideally you want a super thin radiator with a million fins per inch that has large planform dimensions. Best I could find was a Tesla model S front radiator.
Finally you have to mention that for street cars you have two heat exchangers to work with, and each one requires a temp delta. So a2w will never get as close to ambient with high duty cycle on the motor as an air to air. This is why air to air is used on almost all road racing cars (plus rules making non factory a2w illegal to avoid water on the track). Sure for drag racing there is ice but not on the street. So you take a bit of a performance hit potentially for the better packaging, depending upon the temp of the cooling water and the duty cycle on the motor.
Good video. Any experience with the MMR intercooled intakes?
Too expensive!
They are ok. The intercooler core is on the small size on the one I saw. One thing to consider on an intercooled intake is MAF placement. That now places the MAF before the cooler and at very high power can melt the MAF. If you are running a standalone with a MAP sensor, this this isn't an issue
What IAT is to high for WOT ?
So if I understand this correctly. By passing the heat exchanger for “race mode” is okay because the race won’t be long enough for the water to get heat soaked ?
Also do you have to always run ice ? Daily driving with no ice I feel the air to water would preform the same as air to air.
How do you plumb a air to water intercooler with and without heat exchange?
you dont
What are the downfalls for air to water intercooler for a daily driver? Esp since im here in texas? Im worried about the intercooler water heating up too much and not providing any benefit.. any solutions?
Can you not just connect it to a regular radiator?
Idk qbout yours but my coolant runs at about 200°f. You don't want your intake temp that high
Andrew Lavender runs Air to Air and runs 7s
😂😂 building a car with a turbo is like building a gaming PC LMAO but its even better than a gaming PC
On an ecoboost? I’m gonna diy one
Lmao! I like this guy.
It would be interesting to see what effect injecting fuel/alcohol into the air-to-air would have on air temps.
I think I have an answer to your question, albeit a bit of a anecdotal one...
On my GT4, and using the stock WTA intercooling core; I upgraded the front radiator to accomodate a newer, aluminum one. Added two fans to the front of it (pushing) that turn on when the stock system kicks the pump on (aka when a throttle signal is detected), AND added Water/meth injection to boot.
Car was able to boost FAR past its stock limits, granting around 330awhp, and 350 ft/bs torque.
Accompanying mods were: Full cat back including downpipe (3in). Greddy Airfilter. 3rd gen 3sge intake (or exhaust) cam. Adjusted cam timing and a boost controller. Also heat wrapped the intercooler, since it sat right above the cylinder head.
Stock HP numbers put it at 245hp, with around 220-230 at the wheels. Car was daily driven for 2 years, and the intercooler pipes just about ALWAYS stayed cold to the touch. Oops, didnt mean pips, as the stock intercooler has short rubber (in my case poly) adapters that lead from the turbo (about 4in long) to the intercooler, and the one from the intercooler to the manifold (about 3in long). If you need a pic for reference, just google Celica GT4 engine bay.
Temps never rose above what my buddies car ATA system would rise to, and the car was also put through: togue/autocross/drifting/light rallying. Only time temps really rose higher than ATA intercoolers, was during our late night runs around the island, where the car was usually continually driven hard for 2-4 hours straight. So it was kinda expected to be a bit high.
I am posting this, since there is still so much ignorance and mis-information about WTA intercoolers and whether or not they can adapted to a street driven vehicle, or what its main cons are against ATA intercoolers.
From my experience, the largest two "cons" against ATA setups are, complexity of design and weight (the amount of water in the system, and water pump, plus the addition of another radiator).
The biggest pros are obviously reduced intake temps (like, REALLY LOW), far better response, torque and horsepower. Another pro, is that you can confuse everyone that looks at your car, when they wonder why you have two radiators, but seriously, the pros outweigh the cons in a street application. I believe they dont on race or sports competition situations (contrary to popular belief
Do the CO2 kits help with cooling down in an air to air intercooler?
Not that we have seen
Only thing that would lower iat on a air to air is a water meth kit after the Maf
At 2:36 the intercooler sound made me fall asleep
So a water to air intercooler is basically an air to water intercooler with radiator attached to it 🤔
Don't run e85 from the pump! You will get water at some point. Rather run water methanol injection. If you must run e85, buy a drum.
Buy the test kit to keep yourself safe test befor you pump\
I'm so confused.. lol..
Pipe length?
Are you asking if that effect anything?
@@PalmBeachDyno The piping for air to water could be shorter. But I don't know how much that pipe length would affect the airflow.
On paper length is a factor but the effect is so small its not a huge deal
Why not both
Vortech cooler better than procharger stage 2??
Yes but it's not a direct swap between kits. I've seen Procharger Stage 2 cars get near or at 200 at that 1000 hp mark where the Vortech will hit 160 or so
@@PalmBeachDyno well damn!!!
short answer: Water has 30 times more thermal conductivity than air...
Bro is called "palm beach Dyno" and showed absolutely zero Dyno testing
Interchillers ....
You forgot less lag beacose shorter path air neade to pass
Do you know what Californians know how to do best..? Talk. He lost me about 1/3 the way thru, when he started contradicting himself. Neat
You made it that far? I didn't
Either this isn’t the best explanation or I’m just dumb as fuck 😂 I’m super confused 🤷♂️
You are preparing a video and than you are showing pictures? instead of YOUR real car?
And all of his in 20 min?
What about no intercooler just run E85 plus water meth injection
Nobody ever talks about meth or ehgtv
I’m out!
this guy is really confused
Your shop sucks its rasict toward hemi owners only mustang 4.9