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As a Firefighter, I use friction loss calculations to flow large amounts of water through our hoses. There is a point called "red line" where adding more rpm to the pump returns zero more pressure. I think using a higher flow pump in a water to air intercooler could be a parasitic drain beyond cooling gains. You could also damage your pump with cavitation and set yourself even further back. There are calculations tables online for friction loss that could be of use for you if you adjust for the smaller lines used in cars than fire engines.
Cavitation happens when the inlet flow can not keep up with outlet causing a low pressure and cavitation. Stall is when the outlet pressure meets or exceeds the compressor outlet causing shear and heat. At this point the pump will not flow more even with increased power. It basically acts as a water brake, just like in a brake dyno.
@@chippyjohn1 I've also seen them, but more are without than with in automotive... Most are rated at no pressure and max head (if we are lucky).. It goes mostly by "trust us bro"
Speaking of intercooler pipework: I recently watched a video by another tuning company where they simulated a conventional mount turbo setup, followed by a remote (rear) mounted turbo setup on their engine dyno, ie. they first dyno'd the engine normally, then they added 11ft of pipework from the exhaust manifold to the turbine, and 11ft of pipework from the intercooler to the compressor. They found that increasing the intercooler pipework volume made almost no difference to the boost threshold, which proves exactly what you observed. They also found that increasing the exhaust pipework volume made a *massive* difference; IIRC, it increased the boost threshold by over 1700 rpm.
Great video. I have a forced inductions interchiller on my Q50 red sport which works by cooling the air to water system off the AC system. I get ice cold temps which is perfect for my drag set up.
There are quite a few people that don't know what an interchiller is and how easy and beneficial it is. For $1500-2000 you cannot beat it. Probably 90% of performance enthusiasts don't know what they are and what they do.
@@Brother2Jis_27s4 Compared to an air to air it seems way more efficient in cooling the air charge. Im very interested in this because my Civic type R has a propensity to heat soak at the track. So what components are needed? Water to air intercooler, heat exchanger( basically a radiator), water pump, added lines from the factory a/c in series?
Thank you. Been looking into forced induction systems for small engines for about a year now. I ended up with more questions than answers, until now. You made the subject a lot easier for me to understand. Also, many of my assumptions were not that far off.
Intercooler pressure drop question: If temp down= pressure down, shouldn't we be expecting the drop in pressure? Should you be measuring the air density after the intercooler, and calibrating the turbo pressures and intake temp/ density? I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I think I saw that bit on a Gale Banks video as he was yelling at us for not measuring that data point. Lol.
That is correct. If the mass flow is the same either side of the intercooler and cooling takes effect, then the outlet pressure will be lower. This does not mean that you can not have a temperature drop while maintaining the same pressure either side. Both temperature and pressure should be measured. If you look up an F1 intercooler youbwill see they have a lot of surface area and achieve very good cooling without pressure drop.
I saw a video by Richard Holdener where he tested many lengths of intercooler piping and it made very little difference as the piping was extended to great lengths because it was on an engine dyno. On the other hand, if memory serves me right the exhaust runner length did make a bigger difference along with turbo exhaust pipe sizing.
@Jay Dee I replaced my Cxracing is300 intercooler with a treadstone tr1035, which not only flowed a lot more volume, but also brought my iat also within about 20°f with ambient
Regarding water / meth injection pre-intercooler: I own a VW TDI, which is notorious for oil (from the PCV system) condensing in the intrercooler, then getting sucked into the engine. The PCV gases are introduced into the intake before the turbo. Taking that into consideration, I think injecting water / meth pre-intercooler would be a bad idea.
I can't recall if you mentioned if there is any difference from having the in and out of the intercooler on the top vs on the bottom sides... so I ask is there a grand difference?
O yeah Found the small black and yellow nozzles at Irrigation Wharehouse 0.8 mm nozzle Work awesome as a spray bar Only need 1 and keeps IAT at about 8 C over ambient My turbo is large a 62/58 on a 1300 cc Which helps
Spaying methanol pre-intercooler would pretty much negate the entire purpose of the intercooler. Heat exchangers work best when temperature differential is high. So pre-cooling the air with methanol will reduce that temperature differential to almost zero and the intercooler won’t do anything but be a restriction.
O by the way After rebuilding an engine it pays to remove the rag I put in turbo outlet for safety After 3 dyno session I figured it out The rag only blocked 5 rows out of 25 But I dropped 18 % torque and 6 % hp Goes to show you a intercooler has to be sized correctly My engine is a 1300 cc G13 b Suzuki with an evo 3 intercooler 300 whp and 330 Nm at 18 psi
thew water and/or alcohol introduced to the charge air may be best thought of as "phase change" cooling - it's used a lot in the computer component industry. The heat energy the water/alcohol absorbs from the charge air changes from liquid phase to gas is exactly the same latent evaporation as when using the alcohol as fuel.
What is better for cooling the air charge? Thicker core or more surface area? I know that also depends on the fin density and amount of flow through the internal tubes or hollow bars in a bar and plate core? To make the core even more efficient I could have aluminum panels added around the core that directs the air into the core so there’s less wasted air going around past the edges of the core. Then there are different brands that actually do have engineering behind their designs such as Garrett intercooler cores, CSF , PWR.
You've answered the first part of your question there really, thicker or surface area are not the only two factors. There is a interview here you will enjoy, but I would add that companies like PWR will help you find the right choice for your application, you don't have to do all the maths and go to them, you can just give them all the details, they know the right questions to ask, and from there together you can work out what you need remembering there will always be compromises, usually with the packaging - Taz. More radiator talk, but there is cross over: www.hpacademy.com/blog/improving-your-engine-cooling-c-and-r-racing-tech-talk/? Also just a good watch in general for cooling: ruclips.net/video/Fnmc_uJv54w/видео.html
I bought my car (1997 Camaro Z28 pre-LS) used and it already had a Vortech V1-S and their water to air intercooler. I've been steadily updating the whole combination. Swapped the distributor for a camshaft position sensor and I'm now controlling it with a Holley Terminator X using 8 LS3 coils. I've replaced the tiny pump the intercooler kit had with a larger one from a 2009 CTS-V. And I'll soon be upgrading the heat exchanger for the coolant with a newer unit and a fan. But I've been pretty impressed with how effective it is at my low boost level of 7psi @ 6700rpm. It heat soaks a little in summer traffic but the hottest I've seen my IAT's was about 120°F. In this snowy winter weather I'm seeing 10-15° above ambient which would be 45°F IAT. I'd like to simplify to an air to air but this just works so dang good lol. I am very curious as to what temps (both cold and hot) you start making ignition timing changes based on IAT though. I daily this thing in all 4 seasons. I want to keep it alive.
@@Velocitist my system is pretty average and it consists of the intercooler itself, a reservoir for the water/coolant, a pump, a heat exchanger mounted at the front of the car and the associated hoses. Pretty simple to setup but it is alot more hardware than an air to air.
Hi Andre. Re the pre-turbo water-meth spray, anecdotally, I have read up on studies that showed that up to 20% more compressor flow can be achieved. Or, if extra flow is not being chased, the compressor operates a lot more efficiently which has the knock-on effect of reducing the demand on turbine shaft power requirement. I have read concerns on the water-meth condensing back out in the intercooler, but I'd say that 'it depends'. ie, how much flow is going through the IC? What is the ambient temp? How efficient is the IC? I'll add this though; just as much as energy is absorbed through phase change of the spray liquid, conversely, energy is released again as the fluid condenses back into a liquid. This follows the law of conservation of energy. Upshot is; if it does condense back into a liquid, the cooling previously gained is now lost.
Haha! What about the inter-chiller! Why not use air-con as your intake air heat exchanger , I can only see positive benefits Cooler Intake! , Cooler Engine! easier to tune more reliable longer lasting, Well Worth the Parasitic loss I think 🤔 love to hear your opinion? Andre? PS. I had inter-chiller "Why Not Do It" Dreams 20 years ago! How many people had the same idea?
Great video guys, very helpful info. I am curious as to how much IAT increase over ambient is a concerning amount in your experience? On the street if I do a 3rd gear pull I see my IAT rise from 18c to 38c by the end of the pull.
@@greggreg6975 I just barely touched 40c on eddy current dyno, on a long full power run. IAT was 10celsius. The dyno fan was only partially headed to the IC. On the street, 1 to 5 gear full power pull IAT hovers 5 to 10 degrees over ambient. 2.3 bar of boost, about 850 CHP 60x30x10cm IC fully ducted.
@@00visa00 nice one mate!.. I was on a race track, 30c outside. Not sure on air temp but it was more than 10c..lol. im around the same power, 800 aWHP. ej20 engine. i think i need a bigger heat exchanger for the water cooling or maybe ducting like you have done. It seems i make the most power with an IAT around 40-50c. could be the fuel we use??
Do you have any gut feel for cfm air volume on a diesel compared to a petrol forced induction engine. I’m trying to size a WTA intercooler core on a 450 HP 6litre diesel with a compound turbo set up running up to 50psi
How can you tell if your climbing IAT's are due to your intercooler being too small or if your high IAT's are due to the compressor being too small on the turbo or turbos?
What do you think about using the car’s a/c to cool an air to water ic like the company Interchillers? Adds weight, more complexity, but seems effective cooling the air charge.
Not something we have tested personally sorry, but running at A/C for this purpose does indeed add more load to the engine directly, as well as via weight. That might not matter so much for a street application where you already have and want to retain A/C, for a race application it would be unlikely to be superior to a correctly optimised cooling system though - Taz.
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What's your favourite 4g63 powered build?
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As a Firefighter, I use friction loss calculations to flow large amounts of water through our hoses. There is a point called "red line" where adding more rpm to the pump returns zero more pressure. I think using a higher flow pump in a water to air intercooler could be a parasitic drain beyond cooling gains. You could also damage your pump with cavitation and set yourself even further back. There are calculations tables online for friction loss that could be of use for you if you adjust for the smaller lines used in cars than fire engines.
This is very useful information, thank you
exacly, a pump has to be sized the same way a turbo is. but sadly almost no one provides a pump map even though ech properly designed pump has one.
@@EngineeringSiblingsactually many pumps do have pressure and flow maps. I have seen many from sump pumps to firefighting pumps.
Cavitation happens when the inlet flow can not keep up with outlet causing a low pressure and cavitation. Stall is when the outlet pressure meets or exceeds the compressor outlet causing shear and heat. At this point the pump will not flow more even with increased power. It basically acts as a water brake, just like in a brake dyno.
@@chippyjohn1 I've also seen them, but more are without than with in automotive... Most are rated at no pressure and max head (if we are lucky).. It goes mostly by "trust us bro"
Speaking of intercooler pipework: I recently watched a video by another tuning company where they simulated a conventional mount turbo setup, followed by a remote (rear) mounted turbo setup on their engine dyno, ie. they first dyno'd the engine normally, then they added 11ft of pipework from the exhaust manifold to the turbine, and 11ft of pipework from the intercooler to the compressor.
They found that increasing the intercooler pipework volume made almost no difference to the boost threshold, which proves exactly what you observed. They also found that increasing the exhaust pipework volume made a *massive* difference; IIRC, it increased the boost threshold by over 1700 rpm.
Great video. I have a forced inductions interchiller on my Q50 red sport which works by cooling the air to water system off the AC system. I get ice cold temps which is perfect for my drag set up.
There are quite a few people that don't know what an interchiller is and how easy and beneficial it is. For $1500-2000 you cannot beat it. Probably 90% of performance enthusiasts don't know what they are and what they do.
@@Brother2Jis_27s4 Compared to an air to air it seems way more efficient in cooling the air charge. Im very interested in this because my Civic type R has a propensity to heat soak at the track. So what components are needed? Water to air intercooler, heat exchanger( basically a radiator), water pump, added lines from the factory a/c in series?
What the fuck
How do I get this. Jeez it’d be perfect for me
Thank you. Been looking into forced induction systems for small engines for about a year now. I ended up with more questions than answers, until now. You made the subject a lot easier for me to understand. Also, many of my assumptions were not that far off.
Intercooler pressure drop question: If temp down= pressure down, shouldn't we be expecting the drop in pressure? Should you be measuring the air density after the intercooler, and calibrating the turbo pressures and intake temp/ density?
I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I think I saw that bit on a Gale Banks video as he was yelling at us for not measuring that data point. Lol.
That is correct. If the mass flow is the same either side of the intercooler and cooling takes effect, then the outlet pressure will be lower. This does not mean that you can not have a temperature drop while maintaining the same pressure either side. Both temperature and pressure should be measured. If you look up an F1 intercooler youbwill see they have a lot of surface area and achieve very good cooling without pressure drop.
Some of the best content on RUclips. Full stop. Thank you 🙏🏾
Cheers Jarrett - Taz.
I saw a video by Richard Holdener where he tested many lengths of intercooler piping and it made very little difference as the piping was extended to great lengths because it was on an engine dyno. On the other hand, if memory serves me right the exhaust runner length did make a bigger difference along with turbo exhaust pipe sizing.
@Jay Dee I replaced my Cxracing is300 intercooler with a treadstone tr1035, which not only flowed a lot more volume, but also brought my iat also within about 20°f with ambient
Regarding water / meth injection pre-intercooler: I own a VW TDI, which is notorious for oil (from the PCV system) condensing in the intrercooler, then getting sucked into the engine. The PCV gases are introduced into the intake before the turbo. Taking that into consideration, I think injecting water / meth pre-intercooler would be a bad idea.
I can't recall if you mentioned if there is any difference from having the in and out of the intercooler on the top vs on the bottom sides... so I ask is there a grand difference?
Also intake air temperature reduction example to power increase ( eg, 20° 1 bar at 5000rpm =300kw , 40° (same bar, same rpm = ...kw
O yeah
Found the small black and yellow nozzles at
Irrigation Wharehouse 0.8 mm nozzle
Work awesome as a spray bar
Only need 1 and keeps IAT at about 8 C over ambient
My turbo is large a 62/58 on a 1300 cc
Which helps
Spaying methanol pre-intercooler would pretty much negate the entire purpose of the intercooler. Heat exchangers work best when temperature differential is high. So pre-cooling the air with methanol will reduce that temperature differential to almost zero and the intercooler won’t do anything but be a restriction.
Plus methanol could sit in the intercooler and if you ever have a backfire it could grenade your intercooler
You always have to get the right items for your builds. Another awesome blog. Thanks to HPA.👍💯🤟🤜🤛👏😎
Great info about the fin density consideration between end tanks.
O by the way
After rebuilding an engine it pays to remove the rag I put in turbo outlet for safety
After 3 dyno session I figured it out
The rag only blocked 5 rows out of 25
But I dropped 18 % torque and 6 % hp
Goes to show you a intercooler has to be sized correctly
My engine is a 1300 cc G13 b Suzuki with an evo 3 intercooler
300 whp and 330 Nm at 18 psi
thew water and/or alcohol introduced to the charge air may be best thought of as "phase change" cooling - it's used a lot in the computer component industry. The heat energy the water/alcohol absorbs from the charge air changes from liquid phase to gas is exactly the same latent evaporation as when using the alcohol as fuel.
Firm greenline motorsports made core for intercoolers ARC.
What is better for cooling the air charge? Thicker core or more surface area? I know that also depends on the fin density and amount of flow through the internal tubes or hollow bars in a bar and plate core? To make the core even more efficient I could have aluminum panels added around the core that directs the air into the core so there’s less wasted air going around past the edges of the core. Then there are different brands that actually do have engineering behind their designs such as Garrett intercooler cores, CSF , PWR.
You've answered the first part of your question there really, thicker or surface area are not the only two factors.
There is a interview here you will enjoy, but I would add that companies like PWR will help you find the right choice for your application, you don't have to do all the maths and go to them, you can just give them all the details, they know the right questions to ask, and from there together you can work out what you need remembering there will always be compromises, usually with the packaging - Taz.
More radiator talk, but there is cross over: www.hpacademy.com/blog/improving-your-engine-cooling-c-and-r-racing-tech-talk/?
Also just a good watch in general for cooling: ruclips.net/video/Fnmc_uJv54w/видео.html
Can I use a large oil cooler as a radiator for a water to air intercooler system? Would it be detrimental to efficiency?
I'm planning on doing it in a seperate loop for my setup.
I bought my car (1997 Camaro Z28 pre-LS) used and it already had a Vortech V1-S and their water to air intercooler. I've been steadily updating the whole combination. Swapped the distributor for a camshaft position sensor and I'm now controlling it with a Holley Terminator X using 8 LS3 coils. I've replaced the tiny pump the intercooler kit had with a larger one from a 2009 CTS-V. And I'll soon be upgrading the heat exchanger for the coolant with a newer unit and a fan. But I've been pretty impressed with how effective it is at my low boost level of 7psi @ 6700rpm. It heat soaks a little in summer traffic but the hottest I've seen my IAT's was about 120°F. In this snowy winter weather I'm seeing 10-15° above ambient which would be 45°F IAT. I'd like to simplify to an air to air but this just works so dang good lol.
I am very curious as to what temps (both cold and hot) you start making ignition timing changes based on IAT though. I daily this thing in all 4 seasons. I want to keep it alive.
Do you need a separate water tank for the W to A intercooler? Is the pump system that keeps the water circulating really complicated to setup?
@@Velocitist my system is pretty average and it consists of the intercooler itself, a reservoir for the water/coolant, a pump, a heat exchanger mounted at the front of the car and the associated hoses. Pretty simple to setup but it is alot more hardware than an air to air.
@@michaelallen2501 ahhhh I see
Hi Andre.
Re the pre-turbo water-meth spray, anecdotally, I have read up on studies that showed that up to 20% more compressor flow can be achieved. Or, if extra flow is not being chased, the compressor operates a lot more efficiently which has the knock-on effect of reducing the demand on turbine shaft power requirement.
I have read concerns on the water-meth condensing back out in the intercooler, but I'd say that 'it depends'. ie, how much flow is going through the IC? What is the ambient temp? How efficient is the IC?
I'll add this though; just as much as energy is absorbed through phase change of the spray liquid, conversely, energy is released again as the fluid condenses back into a liquid. This follows the law of conservation of energy. Upshot is; if it does condense back into a liquid, the cooling previously gained is now lost.
Ona 4wd turbo diesel going off-road, including a lot of corrugations here in Oz would u recommend a bar & plate or tube & fin?
What about interchillers?
Haha! What about the inter-chiller! Why not use air-con as your intake air heat exchanger , I can only see positive benefits Cooler Intake! , Cooler Engine! easier to tune more reliable longer lasting, Well Worth the Parasitic loss I think 🤔 love to hear your opinion? Andre?
PS.
I had inter-chiller
"Why Not Do It" Dreams 20 years ago!
How many people had the same idea?
Great video guys, very helpful info. I am curious as to how much IAT increase over ambient is a concerning amount in your experience?
On the street if I do a 3rd gear pull I see my IAT rise from 18c to 38c by the end of the pull.
I have the same question in mind. Now i start removing timing slowly when iat goes over 40c. is this too soon to react?
bugger!... mine hits 76c @ 38 psi. Clearly i have issues.
@@greggreg6975 I just barely touched 40c on eddy current dyno, on a long full power run. IAT was 10celsius. The dyno fan was only partially headed to the IC.
On the street, 1 to 5 gear full power pull IAT hovers 5 to 10 degrees over ambient.
2.3 bar of boost, about 850 CHP 60x30x10cm IC fully ducted.
@@00visa00 nice one mate!.. I was on a race track, 30c outside. Not sure on air temp but it was more than 10c..lol.
im around the same power, 800 aWHP. ej20 engine.
i think i need a bigger heat exchanger for the water cooling or maybe ducting like you have done.
It seems i make the most power with an IAT around 40-50c. could be the fuel we use??
@@00visa00 If u dont mind me asking... What rpm did it rev too and how much timing at max boost and rpm?
Hey Andre, what about water/co2 soaking the innercooler?
I plan on making a diy kit with windshield sprayers and some plumbing
Are chinese 600x300x76 intercooler. Bar and plate or tube and fins ?
Do you have any gut feel for cfm air volume on a diesel compared to a petrol forced induction engine. I’m trying to size a WTA intercooler core on a 450 HP 6litre diesel with a compound turbo set up running up to 50psi
How can you tell if your climbing IAT's are due to your intercooler being too small or if your high IAT's are due to the compressor being too small on the turbo or turbos?
With turbo speed sensors and a couple of pressure sensors then you will find where the turbo compressor is operating on the chart
@@ReubenHorner Xonarotor turbo's have no compressor maps.
Always interesting 🙌🏼
Glad you think so, cheers dude! - Taz.
in fact methanol may need a charge air sufficiently high to help vaporize all that fuel?!
Electric air conditioning compressor fixes engine power loss problems, which is the direction I’m going in my build
Only if you are not drawing of the vehicle 12v battery
Can i used a water to air do good for a daily driver
Wow noice 👌
What do you think about using the car’s a/c to cool an air to water ic like the company Interchillers? Adds weight, more complexity, but seems effective cooling the air charge.
Not something we have tested personally sorry, but running at A/C for this purpose does indeed add more load to the engine directly, as well as via weight. That might not matter so much for a street application where you already have and want to retain A/C, for a race application it would be unlikely to be superior to a correctly optimised cooling system though - Taz.
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Nitrous