The Bible: Gospel, Guide, or Garbage? | N.T. Wright and Sean Kelly at Harvard University
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- Опубликовано: 20 дек 2013
- New Testament Scholar N.T. Wright and Harvard Philosopher Sean Kelly discuss how one of history's most influential books, the Bible, should be understood today. | Harvard University, 2013 | Explore more at www.veritas.org.
Moderated by Jay Harris, Dean of Undergraduate Education and Harry Austryn Wolfson Professor of Jewish Studies.
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Over the past two decades, The Veritas Forum has been hosting vibrant discussions on life's hardest questions and engaging the world's leading colleges and universities with Christian perspectives and the relevance of Jesus. Learn more at www.veritas.org, with upcoming events and over 600 pieces of media on topics including science, philosophy, music, business, medicine, and more!
This discussion has an excellent flow to it!
I'm a new Christian and I've been listening to many of the big apologists as much as I can. I'm always pleasantly surprised to find a new one that speaks to me and paints more of God's picture for me. NT Wright is one of those fellows.
Moderated by Jay Harris, A.K.A. Professor X
“You know I believe true balance lies somewhere between rage and serenity.”
Watching this in 2020. All the men coughing profusely on stage...Dr. Kelly says, "Boy, we've all got it up here!" I'm convulsing.
This is the most interesting discussion i have ever listened to. Thank you! It speaks to all levels of enquiry.
The more I learn about Jesus the more human I become.
Then be the best human you can be. I know and thoroughly appreciate your meaning. God be with you
Dr. Wright is a superb scholar and what is really really sad about today's university 'education' is that one feels that one has to be atheist or contrary to the bible to be considered educated.
jazz jazz The most intelligent are those in the know of spiritual man..not carnal man
Dd s . you re declaring yourself quite ignorant in religion and disrespectul . just state your world view and dont mock others. that is a low life behaviour not worthy of debating
The only other stories we have like that are myths, not history,even though the're not exactly the same,the're the same TYPE of stories ,gods, demons devijs spirits, ect,ect, things from the supernatural realm, for which we don't have good evidence,
some much older then the Abrahamic beliefs,
there are also the other non bibical gods today which people believe in.humans are god makers,not the other way round.
I have read the Bible several times. from cover to cover!.very carefuly ...thats why I am an atheist. It is sad that smart people like those in clip are still hostages of that garbage.
sedeslav
What specifically in the Bible proved it was false? Why specifically are you an atheist?
Jay Harris must have grown up on the same block as Martin Scorsese. Their accents are identical except Scorsese talks faster. Great discussion. 👍
Sean Kelly sounds like Prof. Hubert Dreyfus when explaining the relationship between Jesus and St. Paul.
54:00
This is a brilliant discussion that makes the cardboard cutout views expressed by atheists in various forums look so very puerile and ill-informed. Tom Wright has a remarkable ability to explain very complex ideas. Sean Kelly complements Wright's insights with the aid of Heidegger's philosophy, and the chairman does a great job keeping the discussion focused and fast moving.
Harvard audio fail
The Bible ( the law and the prophets) is very complex. Thank God for Matthew 7:12.
People forget many things they dream /imagine when nothing happens,so then when a coincidence does happens and when something "comes true" they remember and think its amazing,its a well known phenomenon.
Why do people have to debate Salvation? All you do is a few things such as repent, be baptised and receive the Holy Ghost (Acts2:37-40) with the signs following in Mark 16:15-20 or not. After that has happened to you, you simply be faithful to that experience (use it, read about it, spread it around and fellowship where that experience is preached) as per the faithful Steward parable. If you don't want to do that minimal thing to show your obedience, then you deserve what happens to you. That is what we do as Assemblies in the Revival Fellowship and the Lord filled me 35y6m and 7 days ago. It is that simple.
Craig Abernethie
After that has happened to you, you simply be faithful to that experience (use it, read about it, spread it around and fellowship where that experience is preached) as per the faithful Steward parable. If you don't want to do that minimal thing to show your obedience, then you deserve what happens to you Isn't that what these guys are doing? This video must be boring to you after 35 years of studying and reading the Bible. You must learn to put up with our ignorance.
Because some don't believe because of misrepresentation and misunderstanding.
Mark 16:9-20 is not genuine.
But it does make sense that Jesus ,who along with his father, created the world, would come and die a fleshly life in order to redeem us of sin. He needed to die a fleshly person in order to equal Adam and act as ransom for Adams sin
Be more human.. Thats the great wisdom of the day.. :0)
Being human has no default condition of behaviour - everyone has the choice to do good or to do bad.
It's nice hearing people say "the West" instead of "UK" or "USA" or "France" - Take note Russia, it wasn't even forced upon us, we're just gladly, and willingly beginning to use the term.
Reason: We can now use our ability to reason, deductive logic, and extrapolation of the known evidence to know and understand things that the evidence does not reveal directly, such as life after death. We have progressed enough to know and understand the fundamental truth of life. It will transform us and our world.
υιος του ανθροπου -- the son of man -- is Yeshua's favorite way of referring to himself in Matthew. This is a direct translation of Hebrew בן האדם. The form בן אדם -- human -- occurs a number of times in the Hebrew bible, but the definite form never occurs. The definite form בן האדם means the human. In other words, he was claiming by this title to be the prototype for the eitire human race.
I believe the Bible is NOT just a collection of ancient books. It’s but one book: one author - Holy Spirit, one main character - Jesus Christ, one main subject - redemption of men from himself.
It’s miraculously complied by imperfect men communicating a perfect message.
Psalm 12:6-8 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Anyone hoping to see this discussion conclude that the Bible is garbage should perhaps consider watching something more in that vein. This video is a very respectful consideration of Christian faith as elucidated by N T Wright who is mostly just allowed to run with his usual defense and explicaton of it. Perhaps the title was decided on in hopes of something that never materialized.
BIBLICAL AUTHORITY RELIES HEAVILY ON CIRCULAR REASONING!
The term "Biblical Authority" gets tossed around a lot! Let's recall where this idea came from--when Catholics in some parts of Europe were fed up with "Papal Authority" in Rome, and had become quite certain the leadership of the Church had been teaching ideas that, people like Martin Luther, were convinced were foreign to Early Christianity, like paying indulgences to get people out of Purgatory.
How, then, to counter Papal Authority in Rome? Well, they could have just appointed a different Authority, like the Eastern (Orthodox) Church did centuries earlier, by making a Patriarchal Authority or something similar. Had Luther wanted to, he might have made himself a sort of Protestant "Pope."
But he and other Protestant leaders decided to counter Papal Authority with "Biblical Authority." Thing was, WHAT was the Bible? The idea most have is that the "Bible" was a book that had been around since Jesus' day...which is true, as long as one understands the Bible Jesus used was the Tanakh, the Jewish Bible, or what Christians call the "Old Testament"!
But the Christian Bible has a "New Testament" that came from...where exactly??? Well, as it turns out, the Early Church never said which books and letters should be considered equal to the Jewish Bible!
There were some favorites, popular in some parts of the Church, and others popular elsewhere! But as the bishopric of Rome became increasingly more powerful, especially after the conversion of the Roman Emperor, the bishops of Rome began rejecting books favored by many other Christians. In summary, it was Papal Christianity that ultimately settled on which books would be considered the Christian Bible, or we should say CATHOLIC Bible!
Now, Martin Luther knew this, so when the time came for him to translate "The" Bible into German, guess what he did, or tried to do? Toss out a bunch of books favored by the Catholic Church!!! For example, he got rid of I and II Maccabees (largely because they contain passages that support the belief in a Purgatory).
He also tossed out others, like Bel and the Dragon (No! That's not a Disney movie! It's a book that was in "The" Bible for 100s of years!)! Luther also wanted to get rid of Revelation, but he was talked into including it in printed editions toward the back, along with other apocryphal books, like the Shephard of Hermas.
He wrote a preface, though, that made it clear Revelation was NOT to be regarded as an inspired text...which the American Bible Society REMOVED in 1807 in their printed editions (Yeah, THAT is how Revelation got in the Protestant New Testament)!
In other words, when we use the term "Biblical Authority," there's some major CIRCULAR REASONING going on! To counter the Catholic Church's Papal Authority, Protestants asserted "Biblical Authority" was superior...even though it was the Catholic Church which had selected which books should be in the Bible!!!
So, what's a Protestant Christian to do? Well, we can blindly believe that, somehow, the same Church we say had begun swaying from the teachings of Jesus as early as the Second Century was divinely guided into making the perfect choices as to what would later be regarded equal to the original Jewish Bible (though they added books to the Tanakh as well)...
or, we can use the brains God gave us to realize what we call the Bible is a MAN-MADE collection of writings in which many a frail, sinful, human being tried to understand what God was trying to tell us!
We can, in other words, find God's words and the authority they convey CONTAINED in the Bible, but it's foolish to blindly believe men with many an ulterior motive at several, religious power centers, from Rome to Philadelphia (HQ of the American Bible Society) received a singular book from the hands of angels, perfectly dictated, word for word, by God Himself!
Rick Lannoye, author of www.amazon.com/Rightly-Dividing.../dp/B091LSMD9N
Are you a victim of Bible Abuse? Get help at ricklannoye.com/contact
Speaks with the learning of man and denies the Holy Ghost which giveth utterance
Blind Guides
Thank you!
if jesus is a God so who jesus called my father. too who he was praying? to himself?
Do you think jesus sent moses to free israel from egypt?
It's the title that's garbage. This is a discussion by two men who take as given that the Bible is true - if anything it's a discussion of what kind of "true". Both men accept the Christian religion, and there is no real challenge to that point of view. So the title teasing that they'll discuss whether the Bible is garbage is just clickbait.
I was very disappointed that men with such credentials (Harvard Professors) would simply brush off alternative points of view without informative discussion. Early on, Wright is asked to comment on the Bible's contradictions, and he blows it off with "Well, if you point one out....." as if none existed, nor anyone had ever mentioned them. Yet, for literally almost two thousand years, scholars have discussed that subject, and I think even believers would be interested in what those scholars have said.
Similarly, Kelly tells the story of "Rule of law" changing to "love your neighbor", and states that he can't imagine how anyone "only human" could have brought about that change. A Harvard Professor dismissing even the possibility of cultural evolution, and validating metaphysical explanations? Just wow.
It's basically an evening of Christian apologetics. That's fine, but the it's not what Veritas claims in there title.
...but what really boggles the mind is that these learned men have not yet come to the obvious conclusion that there is simply no God.
Gee, why haven't they put you up there?
God is real unless declared integer.
There is a God.
"The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” - Psalm 14:1
The Bible has no "supernatural quality."
Correction
You don’t see any supernatural quality. Big difference.
Why I do not believe in Jesus or in his resurrection: a simple and realistic reason why Jesus' tomb was empty!
If I were Joseph of Arimathea, what do you think I would do if after taking Jesus down from the cross, I found that he was still alive albeit in a coma? The answer is simple: I would stage a mock burial as I can't possibly hand him back to the authorities to be crucified a second time. For this I would need help from James (Jesus' brother). The body I bore covered in linen to the cave-tomb wasn't a dead Jesus but his living brother, James! Meantime, I would have my friend Nicodemus tend to Jesus' wounds in some secret place! James would then let himself out of the cave-tomb sometime in the night! Incidentally, this was why the cave was chosen for a tomb as burying James in the ground would have killed him! This is the secret that Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus, James, Mary (Jesus' mother) and Jesus took with them to their graves! This also accounts for Jesus meeting Saul on the road to Damascus, resulting in the latter's conversion. Sadly, in fleeing Israel, Jesus was leaving his disciples in the lurch! But how do I know that it was James who took Jesus' place in the cave-tomb? Here's the evidence - straight from the bible itself!
1. James never spoke of Jesus' virgin birth, miracles and ascension to heaven! Like Jesus, James preached no gospel! All that Jesus allegedly preached in the Gospel of John (which was the last of the 4 gospels written) were works of poetic imagination as many of these key teachings were not mentioned in the other 3 gospels! For instant, the raising of Lazarus from the dead was never mentioned in the other 3 gospels!
2. James preached that "faith (i.e. faith in Jesus) without works is dead." This is a sharp contrast to what Peter, John and Paul preached i.e. one is not saved by works but by faith alone.
3. James warned of Christians whose tongues are like the rudder of ships i.e. they make mountains of molehills. He was referring to Peter, John and Paul and their claims that Jesus rose from the dead!
4. If Jesus was in the tomb, he would have been too grievously hurt, nor have the strength, to roll away the stone! It would take a person free of serious injuries to do that.
5. In the Book of Acts, Peter and Paul, rejecting the need for Gentile believers to be circumcised, criticized James for teaching that Gentile believers should be circumcised and abstain from blood and food offered to idols i.e. James was a devout follower adherent of Judaic practices.
6. Jesus himself said that he came to fulfill the law, and not to destroy it i.e. he too sought to fulfill Judaic laws.
7. Jesus was crucified not because he preached he was the Son of God (he in all probability never did - it was the gospel writers who proclaimed him to be the Son of God since they believed God raised him from the dead) but because he was critical of the hypocrisy and corruption of the pharisees and Sanhedrin.
8. Jesus' own family did not believe that he was the messiah or son of God. See John 7:5
9. On many occasions Jesus had to hide each time the Jews sought to harm him. After his so-called resurrection, he fled Israel for good (and met Saul on the road to Damascus) and was never seen or heard of again in the land of Israel.
10. If indeed Jesus was the way, the truth and the life, billions of unbelievers would go to hell. How then can one say that God is merciful when He doesn't seem to understand what forgiveness is! James and Jesus understood this better than the 4 unknown gospel writers, Peter, Paul and John.
11. Jesus could perform no miracles: Mark 6:5 - And he could there do no mighty work. Matthew 13:58: “And he did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.” All of Jesus' miracles are myths!
12. Matthew 10:34-36 - "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." Matthew 10:34-36 are heinous understatements Jesus made: As the purported Son of God, he did not foresee how his teachings would lead to the Holy Crusades and contribute to the Church's 1500 years of burning of people they consider heretics, apostates, blasphemers, and no less, the Jews for killing Jesus.
13. The gospel of Jesus was the gospel of Paul! He wrote most of the New Testament and his doctrines determine the doctrines in the 4 gospels.
14. The council at Nicaea chose the books that now make up the New Testaments. It rejected several other gospels, not least those that do not emphasize or speak of Jesus' resurrection.
15. Biblical characters in the Old Testament resorted to violence, trickery or deception to achieve their desired goals e.g. Kane killed Abel; Jacob deceived Isaac into believing he was Esau; Laban tricked Jacob into marrying Leah; David sent Uriah Heep into the thickest part of a battle so he would be killed and he could then marry Bathsheba; Peter and Paul offered money to the church at Jerusalem in the hope that James (then the leader at the church of Jerusalem) would be more amendable to their belief that Gentile could be part of the church without having to undergo Judaic rites (e.g. be circumcised) but James firmly rejected the offer! This circumcision requirement is recorded in Acts 15. My point is: whose version of the gospel should one follow to be saved - James or Paul?
After taking Jesus down from the cross, Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus had to think of an ingenious way to save Jesus after finding that he was still alive! Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus are 2 men in the New Testament you would want for friends! I am a born-again atheist. I seek only to know the truth. Years of pondering on the bible led me to my hypothesis that Jesus survived the cross. He would be appalled at what he and the Church had wittingly and/or unwittingly done! I rest my case.
Dear Lawrence, you mention many kinds of theories and interpretations in your note, so I will focus my reply on the Joseph & Nicodemus hypotheses, and I am sorry to say that I see no case. Your theory of Jesus' survival is against all historical evidences we have of how crucifiction works during Roman times... and Jesus' crucifiction specifically... You don't need to believe in Jesus or his crucifiction or resurrection... But all you are doing at the moment, in my view, and with all due respect, is to replace what you believe to be a fantasy narrative by another fantasy narrative...
And even if we were to assume that this hypothesis were correct, it would take Jesus months to get better from his wounds... Whereas the disciples believed they saw a perfectly healthy Jesus only a few days after his crucifixion... And if we were to assume that the disciples were all in on the lie and just lied to others... why would any of them be ready to die for a lie or a guy who simply survived his wounds?
If you are truly seeking the truth, I would humbly suggest that you keep looking for a new hypothesis as to what really happened...
In Peace, D.
NONE of these men are qualified to discuss the Bible. Biblical knowledge most certainly does not come from men’s universities. This is utter comedy. How fitting those throne like chairs are for their egos. They haven’t the sense to be embarrassed. I’m doing that for them. Cartoonish at best. Maranatha!
So you don't believe in evangelism?
I think all understanding rest of the question of whether Jesus is God or the son of God but not equal to his father. My belief is that Jesus is the son of God Yahweh, but is not a god. Because God to have killed himself in order to act as sacrifice for us humans wouldn’t be possible or make sense.
Definitely garbage!
These men know nothing - 20 mins into this video and they have revealed nothing about the bible at all.