What Gods Do We Believe in Now? | N.T. Wright and Gary Morson at Northwestern
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- Опубликовано: 20 дек 2012
- N.T. Wright, Professor of New Testament at the University of St. Andrews and Gary Morson, Professor of Slavic Languages at Northwestern discuss the question: What Gods Do We Believe in Now? Challenging the Religions of Culture. | Northwestern University, 11/12/2012 | Explore more at www.veritas.org.
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I was atheist. One day I was broken and cried out if there be a God... SAVE ME NOW! Well He did! In my bedroom His love surrounded me, He filled me with His Spirit as He promises to do in scripture. I was born again! Wow! I GOT SAVED! It’s real!! The peace is surreal ❤️👏👏👏
thats amazing, can you tell me exactly what happened? what did you pray, how did God answer? very interested, and whats yr name? God bless you today!
He filled me, too! In an instant! WONDERFUL! What a glorious surprise to find out there is Life! With a new heart.
You've been saved by ghosts in fact, that is illusion.
I feel the same way. I imagine millions did also in the past, and millions will also in the future. This reminds me that life is a mixture of the terrible and the wonderful. Always has been.
@@garliyagmr4997 Interesting reply, I'm curious, how did you come to that conclusion?
I am in love with this talk. These men, while not agreeing on everything, both saw how their respective views harmonized with one another, and were very humble and respectful with each other, encouraging their audience to do the same merely by their example. They were both extremely intelligent, self-effacing, and showed empathy towards each other, their audience, and the world at large. I was so relieved to see this talk, as I had been seeing some very intense debates over the past few days, and this was so refreshing to not see two minds pitted against one another. Their points of view showed very strongly that there are complementary places for science and belief in God, and that there need not exist the dualism that is so common in our culture today. Thank you again, Veritas Forum, for your brilliant discussion postings.
FAITH, HOPE, AND LOVE the greatest of these is love.
Love your neighbour as yourself"
Wow. Now THIS was dialogue! Mutual respect, genuine interest in the other person's viewpoint, articulate spokespersons. Thank you, Veritas Forum!
An AWESOME video. NT Wright is fantastic.
Only in the fantasy part.
And let me add, this fellow Gary Morson also seems to be an honest and intelligent man, worthy of a respectful hearing. His remarks were relatively brief, but incisive.
This was a fantastic dialogue. Thanks for sharing.
This was a great forum
They have encouraged me as well.
One of the most hard-hitting topics Prof. Wright has eve boldly tackled. I am grateful for this morality lesson. Especially talking about the abortion issue. May God bless him for his dedication in teaching us about God. Fascinating history about the survival of Christian females! I had no idea! What a blest man to be willing to reveal these uncomfortable truths.
I always enjoy N.T. Wright's insights and observations, which are well informed, both historically and philosophically. Furthermore, he is able to articulate his perspective in an understandable and persuasive manner. I don't always agree with him, but I certainly appreciate him
We fight not flesh and blood but against powers of darkness, principalities and rulers
I know you THINK that he denies the biblical teaching on justification. He merely denies the medieval reformed interpretation of justification. Furthermore, much of what the reformers taught regarding justification, Wright has affirmed. He simply is demonstrating the contrast between 1st century & 17th century language, and its implications. It's a shame to see "protestants" condemning a brother (whether you are or not I do not know) that is simply asking the question, "what does scripture say?"
God so loved the world He gave His only son that whoever believes in Him will have everlasting life.
Crusades had nothing to do with bible theology. they were a response to the persecutions that went on in the eastern part of the roman empire,(the orthodox christian lands invaded by Muslims).Many were told they were fighting for God. Ether way, there have always been war in the name of religion,greed, dominion, ect... But there have always been true followers of Christ through out the ages who lived peaceful lives and made a better world in the communities they lived in.
01:44:10 Morson gives a great quote: John Stuart Mills: "He that only knows only his own case knows little of that."
and if one can be humble enough to realise that, no matter how convinced one is of one's opinion, its opinion, and there are intelligent, well-meaning people on the other side, you don't look for stupid people on the other side.
"Facts means it can be shown to everybody on earth and it is not some personal belief. " Not at all. Facts are facts irrespective of whether or not they can be proven. The issue is one of are we able to know what the facts are.
RichardParke: You can see from evidence where facts generally point. If you see enough markers, you can safely come to a conclusion. If you need to start from the very beginning, as Descartes did, with his own thoughts and doubts, thereby knowing he had thoughts and doubts, leading him to the conclusion that he must be real, at the very least, in order to think at all, then go for it. I think I do that in some ways every day. To my credit (perhaps), I seem to consistently reach the same conclusion. :0)
I think you need to understand the nuance of what 'fact' means in context. A scientific fact is not necessarily a historical fact. It can be, in fact my opinion, is a statement that most people do not understand how fact is used in it. A large amount of grace is needed when someone makes that kind of claim.
So, do I agree with you? The fact is, I think so, but I am honestly not sure how your using the word fact.
Yes! Even if I am blind, there is a moon. Even if I am deaf, there is thunder.
Look into the documented cases of CLINICAL DEATH EXPERIENCE. No DMT chemical at work in the brain during this time do to the fact that the body is clinically dead for a good while. And these people have had outer body experiences describing what was going on around them while they were dead. some of them having horrible experiences in a dark parallel Universe,and some having extremely pleasant heavenly ones.
First we must work on the attention level. So people will be able to put together more than one thought at a time.
truethinker LOL
Amusingly, I commented on this video 3 years ago, and now, come to it without a memory of that event to comment again! Please bear with me 🙂
There's a thread that runs through the questions that seems to want a conflict, or merely a contradiction between science and Christian doctrine. I wonder which part of 'science' is in mind? Would it be fluid mechanics? Perhaps the process of RNA transcription? Or is it the conflict between the Maxwell Heaviside equations and Genesis 1 where God said 'let there be light'. Perhaps he should have said 'let there be a general energy field...'.
I think it is not about these sort of things...the 'bicycle repair' aspects of science ( i.e. finding out the challenge and meeting it...always they way in the bicycle repair shop, but with less math than physics). It's about cosmogonic speculation verses the creation account in Genesis 1, etc.
The problem is that, to borrow a NTW trope: we have platonised the creation account while we've bent toward the Epicureans for our cosmogony: that is, anonymized it. Thus conflict arises! What we fail to grapple with is that the Bible sets itself concretely in history. It is not a platonic text, a text embarrassed by the material world, but one that, while it subordinates the material world to the spiritual; the creation account shows, to borrow another NTW trope, Heaven and Earth overlapping and interconnecting through mankind's communion with God; now, alas broken at the Fall. Placing cosmogony in a purely Epicurean type of domain distances Heaven from Earth and pushes towards a deist conception of God, rather than God as lover of his creation, making it the setting for the warmest of communions....all to be re-done in the new creation.
Who is this man by John Ortberg
Funny how a lot of what he said in the first 17 minutes mirrors Feb 2022 ... Is that because it is unique or is that because we tend to say/repeat the same things in public? I've been hearing people talk about many of the same topics most of my life.
People are complicated, our lives are complicated and any solution to our problems will come with some complications (but) we can improve our lives. We can be better people & live good lives ☺️🇺🇲❤️
I wonder if he imagines a "religious revival among skeptics." Different modes of knowing: scientific and philosophical; scentific and religious; science and wisdom. He seems to be making a cost/benefit analysis. In other words, there is a better pay off if we hold some religious beliefs. (Pascal's Wager?)
01:44:30 And (presumably) his own: "Any idiot can find idiots on the other side."
"Work by the rules, there are as many fools on your side of the isle as on the other. You look for the best people on the other side and that's what humility and knowledge are about then you become smarter and more empathetic at the same time ... its a tool of empathy, and I don't see how one can go wrong if one starts with empathy."
there is one living God.
Someone needs to water that plant on the right!!
Good discussion to :o)
How many N.T. Wright books have you read?
NT Wright and Rowan Williams inspired me to join the Anglican Church. Finally, some voices of reason.
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life no one comes to the Father but by Me.
I think we study literal and the more we Study literature the more confusing the simple word of God come to us. God say my sheep hear my voice.
Jesus did miracles, from changing water to wine, he healed the sick, casting out demons raised the dead, Lazarus, and God raised Him after He was crucified witnessed by the women, the apostles, and over 150 recorded by Matthew, Mark Luke John... Saul later Paul met Peter and John. Whom wrote epistles. They were told to meet together for the spirit HOLY SPIRIT. We are made in God's image. Jesus said the things I do you will be able to do. Healing sick, and so on. My grand daughter ask could I pray for ankle so she could run a distance race. I did she said thanks and ran in it. Never more giving her pain. In the mighty name of Jesus. Was what I prayed for.
Believe only in the Spirit within each of us. Jesus said, " ye are in me, I am in you & the father is in me". Which means God is within each of us..." Is your life built around the consciousness of self or the Superconsciousnes of Christ...?
Don't you mean he denies a certain (Theology) of biblical justification. God will draw men unto him weather we think they have the correct biblical Theology or not. many great preachers and men of god through out history have disagreed on many teachings. As long as they follow Christ with all there heart,and believe in Yeshua, and follow him through his word lead by his spirit,and believing his gospel.
What people do in the name of religion does not always reflect what the religion teaches.
Nor does it reflect the use of 'religion' opportunistically for political ends.
it does not seem to me he begs for any person to take him seriously, in fact Mr Wright is taken VERY seriously by an serious researcher, Historian, Atheistic Debator, any real thinker
The last response by Mr Morson has me confused. Is Mr Morson stubborn not to be persuaded by N T Wright?for humilty is a two stage process. The firat stage is willingness to sit down and talk with the opposite person with the contrary view and the 2nd step, is the humility to accept after listening to what has been said. Pride can play its part when you have shown humility by willingness to listen to other points.
Graham: I do not believe that either speaker lacked in humility at all in their discussion. It was a wonderful thing to see. I particularly liked what each had to say regarding humility, that the other person's point of view, however contrary, was worthy of hearing and studying, and that we must see ourselves playing a small role in a much larger story.
Do you believe that facts are true?
Please don't confuse religious carnal minded people ....with true Christ following spiritual men of God. And i don't want into get into a debate with you, it wouldn't get us anywhere. God bless
When Jesus was being questioned by Pontius Pilate, who wrote down this deep conversation between these two men?. Have we got a manuscript describing this event? Moreover,who wrote down Jesus's conversation with his heavenly father in the garden of Gethsemane, .. or even Jesus's conversation with Satan.?
bonnie43uk pretty certain it was Abraham Lincoln.
Odds are some of the men who witnessed such events converted. The Gospel authors mentioned some things & not others. All the same, can you prove your doubt is founded? Can you evidence it convincingly from the records we do have?
If you can do neither, what you have is idle speculation. That is the significance of it. I can also doubt Kennedy was a US president over similar tactics. It has no significance to the matter, but I can doubt it.
No disrespect, but do you see the point?
1 If you all haven't seen a documentary called... It's worse than you think... By revelations of Jesus Christ ministries... I suggest you do... All praise and glory to the most high Jesus Christ
8 years later Abraham the shylock is clinging to the side of the bowl..
Hebrewed up a story and everybody believed it anyways..
You should have watched it all.
NT Wright talks about how people thought he was "colluding with darwinian atheism". Um...hate to break it to you, sir...but you ARE. We have it recorded. You have given many talks about combining evolutionary thought (inherent scientism and darwinian atheism) with the gospel. Who do you think you are fooling?
False equivalency. "Evolutionary thought" simply does not inherently imply either scientivism or "Darwinian atheism"
Hardly, all that tells you is that once upon a time that might have been the penalty for some behavior or another. That time and place, if it even did ever occur, no longer exists.
The underlying message in the Old Testament is the importance of Law in establishing early stable societies. I suspect what existed earlier was in some places far worse.
I'm just so mad that he is drinking coffee and not tea.
Why is the word LIE found in the word BIBLE?
lol wow you really dismissed A lot of documented cases. your wrong buddy there are to many doctors that agree the body has nothing to do with experience the person has while in this state. And YES people have describe details of every thing around them. There is even one mans case were he described a shoe on the hospitals riif. I can see your just going to deny any of this so good day to you sir :,)
Try substituting the word 'quality' for the word God. Now see this as a case of what was found to have quality at a specific time and place for a specific culture and people in the particular environment in which they lived.
Society starts by creating law and order and inspiring the population to suppress of base human instincts. Once you've achieved that level of civility, the later society will evolve more humane patterns of 'quality'.
Horses for courses.
Jester: The biggest problem with our world is that we keep substituting counterfeit love, morals, etc., for the God who gave us these things--and is those things. Nothing else will work. In case you might be wondering, no, I do not believe in forcing my beliefs on society. Strangely enough, neither does God. He gave us free will, which is why we are in such a mess.
Advanced civilizations of the past, such as the Aztecs, Mayas, and Incas also practiced human sacrifices, and games in which the losing team was sacrificed to gods. They would have continued doing so had Christianity not arrived in the Americas.
The Catholic church was good until Pope John Paul II died.
That was not what Jesus commanded them to do. Not WISDOM heal the sick, casting out of demons, raising the dead. Make disciples teach the commandments. Let the Holy Spirit lead you. Live not in the flesh but the Spirit.
Yes you can cherry pick. The Old Testament was born of a different time and place, it's heavily law based as appropriate for the first nascent steps toward civilization. As harsh as it may seem you have to look at it in terms of what existed before, tribal feuds, genocide, barbarism. It was actually a great step forward.
The New Testament, via Jesus, adds be sincere and caring, have compassion for others, not just be obedient to the law.
It depends what you think the word God refers to doesn't it? The closest term we have in current usage that isn't debased by false beliefs is the word 'quality'.
For a given people at a given place what may seem to us today to be inhumane made sense to them. It had quality. Now unless you know all the circumstances surrounding their value system you can't really pass judgement. For example, lets say the survival of the group is at stake, then you might understand harsh penalties.
Hnm
I'm sorry,but who made you the king of the science?
Reason is no way to god. Have your choosen your friends because of reason? Have you choosen your spouse because of reason? Either one beliefs or one has no beleif at all. So is your spouse a choice of reason or one of love?
Torian: The Book of Acts (1:3) tells of Jesus giving "many convincing proofs". Reason is the pathway to righteousness, as well as staying there. Giving our hearts to Christ, of course, is still the only way to Salvation, but people often need to see good reasons to seek Him. Science, History, Archaeology, and so forth, are such tools to help us get there.
I have reason to trust my Love. There is a known pattern of behavior. Although not an absolute logical reasoning, the base of Trust is Reason, & Love is based on Trust. I do not check my heart or head at the door before making decisions. You have both for a reason.
You are half right.
Actually, you do choose a wife by using reason. You judge her appearance, you judge her based on how she behaves and treats people. You look for warning signs, such as tattoos or signs of promiscuity. Etc. I also choose my friends using reason. I look at them, their personality, their beliefs, their hobbies, their clothing style, etc. and calculate how well we would get along or if we would have things in common.
Reason? I am curious why you seek reason in belief? If one can explain it is no longer a belief it would be a fact.
🙄😣 Misinformation
Stalin had an ideology were the only power could be he so anything which endangered his power had to go. He was a madman and a megalomaniac. The church was challenging his power (at least he saw it like this). So he wanted to have a state in which all worshiped him and the party. Stalin was the only "god" allowed to be worshiped.
Wups! I meant the hospitals ROOF lol
You are talking about the laws under which early groups of humans organized and established themselves and which enabled them to survive. Early civilization dealt with harsher realities of life, yet it may well be that the law wasn't applied as harshly as it sounds, it surely existed as much as a deterrent just as it does today.
It's not until later that the message of love and compassion enters into the picture via Jesus in the New Testament. This is a major advance in civilization.
"God will draw men unto him weather we think they have the correct biblical Theology or not."
- oh I see, clinical death experiences in all caps proves the supernatural, proves your god exists AND also proves that your theology is better than anyone else's. What now?
You are talking about two different realities. The external physics of what is out there has little to do with explaining the internal mental events of our human frame of reference.
"God is a personal emotional think and so cant never (sic) be a fact only a personal belief."
That is a very dismissive assessment. The western world draws heavily on a very long religious history. Gandhi drew upon the works of Tolstoy and Christianity for the means of his non violent revolution.
Clearly it's not. I had a quick look, this is very obviously just a codifying of the laws of the day by which their society functioned.
Write, was it? He said at the start that we become like those we worship. A study of Jesus proves then that most times those going to war with allegedly-Christian excuses were bot worshiping Him.
The Old Trstament cases of God commanding war, I will point out, are either extreme cases, much as I'd God by His ultimate authority were to order an execution, but on large scale or they are orders involving defense of His people.
You have to admit that most of theologians don't do favor to Jesus
Shop Ot Shtatite some do, some don’t. I just don’t see how living a life all about self delivers much of lasting value. When you die all you are goes in the hole if this life is all there is.
I'm glad that NT thought about science in respect of climate...pity he didn't give some thought to the Climategate scandal and the quip about models: all models are wrong, some are useful...except of course when they fail to track their forecasts against observations.
Why did the authors in the bible stories in your oppinion get it wrong? If they got it wrong how and why can you read gods mind on matters like this? Why if god created all humans, are gods words so misunderstandable? Isnt that embarassinng that an all powerful, allknowing god wrote books which arent in a good style and misunderstood by many?
no CDE just proves a ''dead'' person can be broth back,nobody uses it to prove the supernatural(we can use other arguments in logic for that one).It sounded like you straw-man'd his argument,if i saw it right.And as for theology(also not related to CDE),it is unique,you probably don't know much about religious history
so you speak for all atheists? thats very RELIGIOUS of you.
well yes. Lenin and his bolshevics wrote the black book of communism in which atheist values were laws and Christians were considered schiziophrenic. I am Russian and i know how much died for faith because of atheism.
you know its FAR to simplistic to say less religious societies have less crime. there are more factors that need to be taken into account. nice try.
He belittles the ancient greeks; then has a go at modern times.
He totally ignores Medieval Europe, when people were tortured and burnt at the hands of christians.
Very convenient.
no evidence? what do you mean no evidence. search Minunea de la Huta. Atheism means faith in materialism. You are the living example. Btw also search for Eben Alexander case. Even Sam Harris is not debating him because he is affraid. bye bye materialism.
I am sorry killing disobedient children was in no society every necessary for anything. It is an embarassment that an all knowing all powerful god made laws like this and if you would read the bible you would know it says that these laws are forever. Anything else would be utterly stupid as an all knowing all powerful being should make up laws that hold up forever or? So either stupid people made them up for themselves or god is an amoral cruel being.
The first time I ever listened to NT Wright, I thought he was brilliant & I appreciated the explanations of how theology has shaped the world but the more I listen to his teaching, I know actually question his motivations To be honest, it sounds more like at the core of his teaching, thelogy was put in place to characterize a man made God. I will be starting away from this guy! I think he is worldly.
There was NO PORNOGRAPHY! I would have killed myself if I had lived back then.
Dill: Well, I think I can guess what your god is. :0)
psychology is a science that can show what is healthy or not beneficial behavior. No belief in a supernatural mysterious personality is necessary for good moral teachings. Everything about the bible is outdated and overrated on top of inaccurate and barbaric Jesus was just some average dude that added his new twist on an older religion. A fish story always grows word of mouth.
+Theologos ya true. People make these blanket statements so fast! Yes belief in God brings out complexities, question we cannot get our heads around but the other where we are JUST a product of chemical reactions cancels out everything else! In that case everything we feel is an illusion a by product of chemical reactions we have no control over.
Do you think Carl Jung was a good psychologist? Read his seminar given in 1925 on Analytical Psychology (prepared by Cary Baynes) and his fantasies recorded in his now legendary Red Book. One of the most significant figures is Philemon - a supernatural spirit guide..... who guided him into all his "psycho" babble rubbish. You have not read the Holy Bible. For the sake of your eternal soul, perhaps you ought to give it a try.
Blanket belief statements - declarations of faith in religious principles which are unproven and unprovable. Or rather, in the case of calling psychology a science, simply false, since actually it is a field strewn with rival theories each yielding a different pattern of possible diagnoses and treatment ideas, most of which don't work. And most of which assume a default state of healthy acceptance of the world and a person's available place within it as normality and mental health as if society isn't actually fundamentally insane and unhealthy and itself the primary cause of mental stresses and damage to mental health. So often there is this absurdity from anti-theists, that theistic religious beliefs are condemned because they differ from the religious belief that there is nothing to believe in and that believing at all is error and immorality - a self-negating and impossible belief that belief can and should be avoided.
No it can't. Look up the is/ought problem. Science cannot tell you what to do morally, and anyone who says it can is actually preaching an ideology called scientivism.
That’s your opinion. Fish stories may grow as you tell them but I. Many cultures oral traditions are extremely accurate.
Believe what you wish but be tolerant enough to understand I have the right to my beliefs.
Watched 40 minutes of this before the pretentious and convoluted babble was too much to bear. Another intelligent fool who creates a false dichotomy of his religion and decadent civilisation. Institutionalised religion and secular cultural phenomena may share parallels but they are not equivalent. Religion is explicit in its instructions and dogma, a comfortable box for small minds. The pursuit of money or sex above all other things is not written in stone, and can therefore be challenged.
Funny that both pieces should be inspired by god but in the one he was a murdering lunatic and in the other he what? Is an al powerful, all knowing god not able to get people to write his story down properly. This is embarassing!
Trying to personify Satan and God is very primitive and has to go
Shop Ot Shtatite . then let criminals and low lifes populate your home and neighborhood. then you will understand this lecture