We Need "Bad" LGBTQIA Representation | A Movie Video Essay
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- LGBTQA Representation has become a hot button topic. Disney has introduced their first gay character eleven times in the last decade. LGBTQA books keep getting banned. Adaptations of popular gay books seem strangely sanitized.
It makes me think back to the days of John Waters, where gay rep meant watching Pink Flamingos in a dark room or picking up Clive Barker novels. With Steven Universe and Nimona, what happened to bad LGBTQA Representation? Should we go back to it?
Special thanks to @ChloeSunfloraVA and @jazzyoliver5390 for reading those lines.
Chapters:
0:00 John Waters
2:03 No More Explicit Than Hand Holding
3:45 Becky Albertalli Simon vs The Homo Sapiens Agenda
8:11 LGBTQA Representation and Disney
10:29 ND Stevenson, Nimona, and She-Ra
16:17 The Sanitized Queer Story To Appeal to Bigots
20:22 Queer Coded Villains
24:08 LGBTQA Fans Are Eating Scraps
26:27 We Needed Rebecca Sugar and Steven Universe
29:00 Companies Use LGBTQA Stories, Then Drop Them (Yuri on Ice)
32:45 We Need Mean-Spirited, Problematic LGBTQA Stories
34:26 Studios Are Ignoring Messy Queer Stories (But Want LGBTQA Dollars)
36:55 "I Have the Feeling This Man is Gay" 
Кино
Do we want good gay rep? Yes
Do we want gay coded/full blown gay villains? Yes
Why can’t we have have both?
Because the lgbt+ community has a bad habit of turning on their own, enabling homophobia and transphobia against people, they have personal grievances with.
because when it come to the loud vocal minority of queer voices they don't want that, they see a queer villain as bigotry and "punching down", what the vocal minority wants to see is queer characters beating the crap out of Cis characters because to them it's revenge by proxy for all the suffering they have experienced
that part
@@DCPTF2 Bingo.
@@melasnexperience wad my other comment really deleted?, seems to be gone
as long as it's not implied that they're bad BECAUSE they're queer
I refute this assumption that you can't make a character's queerness the basis of their villain arc. If someone wants to display the worst aspects of someone who is LGBT, then that's fine. I had an idea a while back on such a topic, a story that was suppose to be an examination of good and bad characteristics in trans people, where the 'villain' of the story was a trans (Male presenting) person who imposed themselves on everyone around them due to the idea that being trans made them special and require special treatment, forcing themselves into a group that shares next to no interests with this person, and basically being as annoying as humanly possible with the excuse of "I'm trans, so you have to treat me better."
This was to be juxtapose by a secondary character in the group also being trans (female presenting), but having integrated into the affected group more easily prior to this new person forcing their way in, because they never brought it up, never made a big deal about it, and was just trying to live their life and get along with others, to the point that no one questioned that they were what they said they were. To the group represented in the story, this individual was always a girl, because that's all they ever knew her as, and she doesn't make "being transsexual" the core part of her personality. Doesn't hurt that she actually respects the others in the group, and is someone who is interesting for all the other qualities that make up her character, to the point that them being trans does not matter one way or the other.
So yes, you can have antagonistic characters based purely on focusing on their LGBT traits, it just requires proper context. Heck, you might not even agree that this is a good way of doing it, with the villain being too much of a "heavy handed stereotype" (which I'd agree with if such people didn't exist), but I would hope you could see how a concept like this lays the groundwork for how it could be done in the "right way".
It never is but people always claim it to be... it's so tiring
@schorltourmaline4521
the only issue i would have is if the out and loud chara has nuance. i say this as someone who is _excessively_ open to being trans irl. there are a lot of potential dynamics at play here.
girls are taught to take up less space and 'be safer', not to be loud or make demands, to prioritise the comfort of others-esp men-and overcompensate in resetting comfort when people express discomfort... boys are taught to be assertive and loud and take up space, etcetc.
additionally, people who struggle to 'pass' to cisgender folks-with little to no recourse to resolve this social tension-eventually have to embrace a level of loud and proud or perish. when push comes to shove, 'being trans' becomes central to your existence in the world, not because of a stereotypical 'entitled victim' mentality, but because of the victimisation process itself. in essence, when everyone around you sees you as that one trans person they have to suffer through uncomfortably when forced to interact with... well...
i don't know, years of that makes you realise you better air it out quick to get it over with.
it's great that the trans woman seems to have an accepting and (seemingly) supportive group-esp if all she wants is to pass as essentially a cis woman. (tho a question i would ask: is that group supportive of her when or if it comes to trans issues or do they ignore the topic altogether... so, supportive, up until shit gets real and then they want nothing to do with it?)
but the trans masc character, while obnoxious at the outset, certainly shouldn't be allowed to remain as a thorn in their heels without discussing _why_ someone takes on those traits, and esp in the discussion of trans masc (and how T normally allows for easier passing), what caused them to forgo the safety of passing without risk of being clocked (which is typical for most trans men) in order to make sure everyone is aware they are trans.
[from experience tho, T is not a perfect 'pass in ~1 yr guaranteed!' remedy. if he is presenting masc but got unlucky with T, this would contribute huge to being... somewhat bitter, but also making sure people know what's expected.]
case in point, people know i am trans from five minutes of convo. i don't hide it-i don't expect special treatment, but i want it out in the open _immediately_ to get over the inevitable. i talk about trans issues a lot, i make jokes at my own misfortunate luck with 8-9 years of T injections, i expect neutral pronouns. and i expect anyone who wants me around to give half a shit about the reality of the situation of trans rights and-equally as important, tbh?-to brace themselves in preparation for the fact that my existence near them, and them interacting with me as a human being, will mean strangers will turn some of their attention to them due to proximity to _me,_ who they already are looking at with an expression that reads that they see me as disgustingly subhuman. i hardly notice it anymore, but i have to warn people in advance.
so.
all i am saying is, yeah, people like me exist where being trans has become a huge part of existing in the world and everything becomes filtered through that experience of being in the world.
people see it as annoying as is, but like... the dichotomy you're working with is one which can rapidly turn into framing the out and loud trans person as a villain because they are making the cis characters uncomfortable-all i am saying is a little nuance later on (the transformation of the villain arc into chara development arc or smth) can go a long way.
(i won't tell you to make your trans woman less quiet. _i_ would, by making both characters learn off each other. but that is because _my_ experience is reflected in that quiet passing as being ashamed and embarrassed. i don't know your situation. but i will implore you to consider that both of these characters have some level of 'villainy' involved: one you already detailed, while the other is the model of the 'out of sight out of mind' trans person who isn't making cis folks uncomfortable with talking about trans issued or human rights being stripped away or the fear of being clocked at the worst time. framing it as 'the loud and out trans person is bad, the quiet and stealthing trans person is good' is... well, you do you, but, just consider what the message looks like.
@@schorltourmaline4521 You're just describing having a transphobic conservative caricature of a trans person and then throwing in another trans character to be "one of the good ones" to excuse the former.
@@CharlotteSWeb-oh7ou If this is a caricature, then A LOT of real life people have turned themselves into parodies.
Funnily enough, the previous person in this feed has agreed this could be an interesting way to approach the topic, and even explain ways such a story could be used to address those who are obnoxious about being trans.
You might not like it, but there are bad ways to be a human being, and most of those ways come down to imposing yourself onto others. That doesn't mean you can't be enthusiastic about who you are, but there is a difference in that and being exploitative about it.
Sooo... yeah... what's your problem?
We need to recognize that anyone can be a horrible person. Anyone can have faults.
The issue is that Gay and Trans representation are not at the same point right now. Gays are normalized enough that we cna have Gay villains without it reinforcing any stereotypes that much. But as a Trans-Feminine persons I'm still very traumatized by the tope of a Serial Killer turning out to be a Trans Woman trope.
Cis-Het character do not morally ambiguous to be considering interesting or not boring.
@@Kuudere-Kun It was really good that I watched Silence of the Lambs for the first time a few days before Nimona came out. While SotL was really good, It crushed me when Nimona said "Why am I always the monster?" and how media essentially demonized the LGBTQA community but especially the trans community regularly prior to a decade ago.
While *so many* cishet conservatives exhibit nightmarish toxicity, too many members -- let alone counter-heteronormative members -- of the LGBTQ community exhibit their own dysfunctional hatred!!
@@Kuudere-Kun the more we coddle people and treat them differently based on their characteristics the worse it will be for everyone. Treating people differently, even preferentially so, just creates resentment and hatred. We need to throw away the Kitty gloves and all understand that people are people, nothing else needs to matter.
@@Capt.Steele That's really not far off from the argument a Conservative would make.
It’s a real shame that the response to people complaining about the only queer rep being villains was to make it so we don’t really have queer/queer coded villains anymore instead of having queer villains and queer heroes. Queer villains are often so iconic and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that a lot of Disney’s best villains came from the era where they were heavily queer coded.
Also I wanna give appreciation to villains like Gus Fring who are canonically queer but aren’t really “flamboyant”. I feel like they often get overlooked in these types of conversations.
Also gus was more accidental, he is a case where the creators, we see, thats a legit thing to interpret, to make it full on official canon in better off saul. Thats how you easy get gay characters, characters that it just make sense whyever and, make them gay then.(cough finn/poe)
Also person of interest shaw root became iconic if, yeah tragic stuff happens but thats in the tone of the drama and ends really interesting for root. And that came from the actress playing up an interogationm scene of two eem, special people and the creators ran with it.
That should be done more, if its in any way developing and making sense , do it.
Also lexa, and no ther ewere factors and lexa , it makes sense in the show that kills off a lot characters, and her death and legacy has an impact and never is forgotten. And she isnt the only queer character with clarke, ther are more.
I would add lexa from the 100, who was not fridged, the show just isnt afraid to kill characters all the time. And its felt. in the show , and remembered
The solution should be queer coded villains and heroes together.
cause media uses LGBT as a token group to push their own agenda and manipulate people for capital i.e. money by emotional validation on surface appeal,they won't make anything but a safe bet cause otherwise that's "-istaphobic"
I agree. However, something I find very annoying is when a bisexual woman gets with a woman, who turns out to be a villain. And of course the girl gets with a guy again. Like jeez, at least let them date a niceish lesbian before returning to dicktopia
Well Gus is cannonically in the closet (probably to protect others, for what happened to his love interest in the past). So in BB he lies to Walt abou his wife and kids going idk where that evening. And in BCS he fails to make a proper advance at the barman he always visit in that bar
This is why I love Eda from The Owl House. Yes, her relationship with Raine is cute and wholesome, but Eda herself is just this fun, chaotic con artist that hates authority. It’s fitting that she hooked up with Grunkle Stan at one point and then stole his money
@Rotom0479
You seem to be fishing for rage, but I’ll bite. Please explain why the best show Disney has put out in ages “was crap.” Cite examples from all three seasons, and don’t just complain that it parodies certain fantasy themes.
@@legendofdymin this person has had the same thing to say about all cartoons with LGBTQ+ rep, really puts into perspective how little they actually care about show quality and are just mad that the world is more inclusive outside of their little bubble.
@Rotom0479 pacing in owl house seems bad just cuz disney canceled it and they had to rush 2 and 3 seasons
@Rotom0479if you're so against the idea of gay people being in cartoons why are you even here? do you think you're going to convince anyone to think like you? know your audience, the one you're looking for isn't here
@Rotom0479 or you could spend your time more productively
because there is not enough bad gay and trans rep, i am becoming the bad gay and trans rep i want to see in the world. this is my gift to all of you.
Thank you for your service🙏🙏🙏
Thank you boog
Godspeed Boog.
THANK YOU POOKIE
lmfao
I think this is one reason why NBC’s Hannibal is so loved by queer fans. It’s impressive a show like this even aired in network TV showing such a dark relationship. It was also cancelled after its 3rd season, which I am glad we got.
Honestly, I’m satisfied with how it ended. Sure, I’d love more, but where it stopped was good, too.
@@animeotaku307 Yeah this is where I’m at too. I’m worried if they continue the story it will ruin my love for the first 3 seasons.
Yes! As a queer fan of the show, I agree.
I think the best messy queer rep right now is Interview with the Vampire. Every single vampire is queer, whether or not they are actually "homosexual." It's the whole allegory. And each of them is exceedingly messy and screwed up in super queer ways. They are all beautifully ugly, dramatic, and brimming with queer angst and I absolutely love it.
i just recommended the show too lol i’ve been loving the show so far
@Rotom0479 and? what are you gonna do cry about it? idk if they aren’t gay in the books (mind you anne rice herself has said that she views louis and lestat as a couple and she also overlooked the adaptation before passing) so you can bitch all you want it won’t change the fact that the show is incredible. all you’ll be doing is sounding like a homophobe
@Rotom0479 so what?
@Rotom0479 and why should i care when the story being told is still spectacular. also that’s not even entirely true because anne rice herself has said she sees lestat and louis as hasbands and she overlooked the project before passing
@Rotom0479 do you realize how bigoted you sound like no one cares that they changed the race. what you wanted the white slave owner from the original back? is seeing white peoples that important that you would rather have problematic white representation over a nuanced black character?
"We need more queer villains"
Alfred Hitchcock: I'm doing my part!
Honestly he kinda ate. Probably because he actually was friends w gay ppl?
"Rope" is a phenomenal movie. The villains are a gay couple. Very explicitly. But their crimes and villainy aren't queer based. They are just two really horrible guys who happen to be gay. It's also technically a master class given by Hitchcock.
@@CorwinFound ikr! It’s so good like that
@@TryinaD Actually interacting with gay people on a regular basis gave him a pretty strong headstart.
its funny because a lot of disney villains seem very queer coded
Finally, one of these that doesn’t say horrifying shit about queers of the ‘80s.
And doesn't bash women every five seconds either.
Hi, James.
@@KariIzumi1 it’s like this is an anti-Somerton video not in the sense that it’s a takedown, more in the sense of being the opposite of a Somerton video.
I think it's telling that both Tamsyn Muir and Lana Wachowski both imagined hell as a Coffee Shop AU.
Ken Levine, writer of of Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite had a great quote on creating characters, whether they weere LGBTQ, Jewish or another background.
"I think there is a feeling of wanting to see character types rather than characters,” “People ask me, ‘Why don’t you write a ‘positive gay character?’ In the abstract, that’s a very odd request, not because there aren’t positive gay people out there. It’s because nobody is wholly positive or wholly negative. And that’s also not what makes somebody interesting. Being strong and positive is not what makes people interesting. It can be part of what makes somebody interesting, but that to me is creating a one-dimensional character, that’s only recognizable by their strengths, or only recognizable by the fact that they are black, or by the fact that they are Jewish. As a writer, that doesn’t seem like a terrific path to creating interesting characters."
Being LGBTQ myself, I fully understand and respect people who just want to see positive representation, that we don't get portrayed for being tragic, on bigotry and touching on parts of life that impact us for various reasons. Because escapism for many is a powerful part of engaging in fiction and wanting to disconnect from real world concerns.
Plus the decades of Bury the Gay, being used for nothing but tragedy, Queer baiting and stereotypical portrayal has certainly left I think wariness among a number of viewers/readers that I have felt myself over the years.
At the same time, I think there is always room to seeing more nuanced exploration of LGBTQ people, groups, and topics be explored in different ways, of showing more as flawed, villainous or touching on bits that are uncomfortable or controversial as long as its done well, has a point to it, adds to the work, characters overall.
Love this
It's really is horrifying how we've started taking steps back as a society in the name of progress, treating people differently based on their characteristics (Race, sexuality, gender) rather than the contents of their character.
I love creators like this who understand it's not about creating LGBTQ characters, it's about creating human characters.
@@Capt.SteeleWhat do you mean? Societies around the world have been like that since history began, it's never gone away. Only in more recent times has "decency" and "etiquette" been employed throughout the common places of human activity. It's never truly gone away, and I don't think it ever will.
The santization of queer content on social media honestly reminds me of how even some members of the LGBTQ+ community end up engaging in gatekeeping respectability politics, openly dismissing & condemning anything that they see as “unacceptable levels of gayness.”
Personally, I remember seeing some progressive comic book fans labeling Sina Grace’s ICEMAN run as “an offensive gay stereotype,” even though Grace himself is a gay author and I’ve lost count over how many times I’ve heard that exact SAME argument from LITERAL Comicsgaters!
I disagree with your concept. Just because a black person does black face or a blonde woman pretends to be dumb doesn't mean it's okay. A gay man can still depict an offensive gaymale stereotype. Him being gay doesn't erase his ability to make an offensive stereotype.
@@TheDCbiz Would you care to explain exactly HOW Grace wrote Iceman as an “offensive gay stereotype?” Because I personally don’t see it and NONE of the people I’ve encountered who have made that argument have ever provided evidence to back it up.
@@TheDCbizda fuck are you talking about
@@TheDCbiz wtf are you talking about?
@@TheDCbizwriting a thing is different from literally doing black face also it does matter since a lot of times those authors are accused of being homophobic to the point were they are forced to openly come out as their sexuality which is not fair for them as people.
This might sound like a tangent, but I wish people didn't treat comics like something that needs to be adapted to screen to be important. There's so many great comics made by so many different people that are successful in their own rights that deserve to be considered AS comics. Not just as something that should be a movie/tv show/ cartoon series to be considered good rep.
It's... mostly because TV gets more eyes on it when the solution should be a general encouragement for mainstream audiences to read and talk about comic books.
True. I started reading comics about a year ago and some characters and stories, like Kelly Thompson's Black Widow and Donny Cates's Venom, have become my favorite version of those characters by far.
The real problem is that so many on both sides don't see these people as people. They see them as representatives, role models or stereotypes. Sexuality is not the defining feature of a person, neither is race nor gender.
People are people, and the sooner we all realize that the sooner we'll have true representation.
SAY 👏🏿 IT 👏🏿 LOUDER 👏🏿FOR👏🏿THE👏🏿PEOPLE👏🏿IN👏🏿THE👏🏿BACK👏🏿
Then they'll be peace on Earth.
Not really. But that's what we all wish for.
I hate the pearl clutching that goes on with She-Ra over Catra. For fuck's sake, it's literally one of the few times we're actually allowed to have a character with a "scary" mental illness not represented as an irredeemable monster. It's always "destigmatize mental illness" until somebody has outbursts, self sabotaging behavior, anger issues, crippling fear of abandonment, etc. Just say you don't think people with borderline personality disorder deserve to be happy and leave ND Stevenson alone.
THIS. I'm ngl, I think Catra is just a lot for some people to wrap their head around cause there really aren't many characters like her. She's so messy and complex and the moral issues of her character are what can make the show uncomfortable to watch at times. But I love both Catra and the show for it. Its not afraid to take those risks, and I feel like her both being allowed to actually have all of these realistic issues from her trauma without sugar coating it plus being queer rep makes her feel so human to me. I rarely think about the fact that she's gay as her first characteristic, because there is SO MUCH to unpack about her character besides that, her being lesbian is just a nice bonus.
The fact that Catra appears "too far gone" at points in the show is what makes her redemption arc so hopeful, as no one can even try to change if they believe there's no chance for them. It shows that u don't have to be the "perfect" victim to deserve a second chance at life, as perfect victims don't exist.
I also think that people ignore the fact that the show implies many times that her redemption arc is just beginning and is not supposed to be tied up in a perfect bow by the end of the show. Like everyone, she's a work in progress, which is incredibly realistic as well.
@Rotom0479 very constructive criticism lmao
@Rotom0479So like, are you gonna say something ACTUALLY productive or are you just gonna keep riding your own meat?
@Rotom0479 Still better than Kevin Smith's show or that generic-ass CGI version.
@Rotom0479
To be fair A Troll In Central Park has better animation than The Flintstones. Doesn’t make the former better.
I'm an asexual/demisexual lesbian who is somewhat closeted. I stay closeted because most of my family are true believing Mormons and being Queer in this religion (cult) is a major problem. I still attend church to maintain the peace. I crave LGBTQ+ content. I write LGBTQ+ stories to keep myself sane. But recently my AO3 identity was found by a family member where I'd been open about my unbelief. It was a nightmare. I resent being outed in such a way; my safe space has been destroyed because this family member is always stalking my socials now.
Being forced to compartmentalize myself and section parts of myself out to others because my whole self isn't safe with them is exceptionally exhausting. I greatly appreciate LGBTQ+ media where it's all sunshine because it gives me something to hope for, but it's also discouraging in a way, too.
Not to be rude, but how the hell are you lesbian and asexual at the same time that's an oxymoron.
I'm very sorry you went through that, that's really horrible :(
i'm so sorry that this happened to you. have you considered discretly changing your socials or is this not possible?
As a biromantic asexual woman, I just wanted that you are loved and valued. I'm so terribly sorry for what you had to experience with your family and truly hope that you find people who cherish and value you for who you are! I also hope that you are able to safely find a LGBTQIA+ affirming organization where you can have a safe haven. Sadly, ace characters are usually depicted as cold, heartless, narcissists or infantilized in popular media if they are even depicted at all. We all know that couldn't be further from the truth. Esperanza "Spooner" Cruz is a badass asexual hero from the D.C. Arrow verse. I also love the Raybearer book duology for its very positive depiction of a biromantic asexual character that is kindhearted, empathetic, and intelligent. Even though I'm well into adulthood, I love shows like "The Owl House" for its positive depiction of queer characters.
From one ex-Mormon to another, stay strong
I first watched "queer as folk" on Netflix when it was available, in 2014, and I think that was the first time I saw queer media where not every gay character was perfect. I hated Brian so much.
Saaaaaame.
god i loved that show, every character was flawed and it felt so genuine to real life (i mean it was a drama so some things were stretched but it wasnt to the point of unrealistic expectations)
Brian was awful, but I think he loved Michael, his friend Lindsay, and his baby Gus. He just kinda sucked at showing his love.
@@SkyeID honestly relatable
Queer people saying that "they can just tell by the writing" that the author was Alo/Het gives me the same rage as transphobes saying "they can always tell" when someone is trans.
What is "Alo"?
@@ununun9995 It's short for "Allosexual" meaning anyone who experiences sexual attraction.
@@annerumain7711 The biggest irony I've seen was when I viewed an explicit furry server via discord, people where confused about and criticizing the term allosexual while gay furry material was showcased in another channel.
Since no one else is talking about it, I feel as though Rocky Horror Picture Show deserves a mention. Honestly iconic.
We need and want more _good art and bad rep,_ not _good rep and bad art._ I admit that I am someone who likes to watch good people do good things, but I also think that we should have multi-facetted characters of all types, particularly of minorities. Multi-facetted characters, like people, should also have their bad, may I even say ugly, sides.
i think you are forgetting what "bad representation" is. it doesn't mean the characters are nuanced and have flaws, it means that they're contributing to harmful tropes.
The flattening of all sanitized representation of queer rep as "bad rep" is kinda backwards imo. Especially when older shows like Steven Universe who are so often judged as this sanitized show when it is In Fact Not At All
@Rotom0479 It’s… wrong for me to basically summarise the video’s thesis?
@Rotom0479 Have you considered that myself and many others are perhaps younger than you are? We don’t know each other, that is actually perfectly plausible.
And, while I can of course only speak for myself, I quite often rely on others putting certain words to thoughts I perhaps may have had. Especially in English.
@Rotom0479 And I am. I just paraphrased the video because I think it’s interesting. And I think my English is perfectly fine. I just don’t think every waking hour and every waking thought in English. I do think in English a lot, but not all the time. That was an incredibly rude thing to say (about a polyglot’s language skills).
The Yuri!!! On Ice movie cancellation is the worst thing that has happened to me this year
same 😭😭
@Rotom0479 Only if you hold me while I do 🥺
@Rotom0479 I would put a comma after the no, but maybe it's just me...
@Rotom0479 why do you have to be an asshole about it? why does it bother you that people feel saddened by the loss of a beloved story that touched a lot of hearts and profoundly impacted people's lives? (especially queer people, people experiencing anxiety & depression, autistic people, ...)
With a lot of coropations they treat the qureness of a character as their main trait. They go, "Hey look at the girl, she likes other girls!" Why can't characters just be characters? As an asexual I we sort of have the reverse. We don't get enough "good" reputation. Asexuals mostly tend to be villans. When they are not, they are either aliens or robots. I think it's also a problem in Fandoms where plotnic love is almost dead.
I think it's because, well, they're business folks and not writers. They're all about what sell tragically and with them, it's either you downplay their sexuality to appease the intolerant oooooooooor you go all in to make your target audience clear as crystal.
It's BS, I know.
Agreed about the ace rep, especially about how fandom is hostile to the very suggestion. It's depressing.
You forgot about assholes. Villains, aliens, robots, or assholes. Your Sherlocks and your Sheldons, for example.
Ace rep is so bad that when a character is unintentionally ace coded, the audience assumes they are homosexual. Because of course "not showing an interest in the opposite sex" equates in their mind to "interested in the same sex." And therefore any kind or helpful act that the character makes for a same sex character is read as romantic interest. And then shippers get invested enough in their ship that the writers try to make them happy.
I'm not bitter, why do you ask?
@@DrLipkin I 100% agree with your frustrations, especially with the writers catering to fans with terminal shipping brain rot.
I hate how they takeaway what little rep is identified. Jughead was asexual but Riverdale had to completely erase that. Sheldon was Asexual until the show wanted him to have a date. It happens all the time.
Hannibal is pretty much a TV show with LGBT character that is great villain, i think it's the best example
Also by having an enemies and lovers relationship between him and the protagonist (who is not that good of a person either).
This is why I love the enemies to lovers trope, especially in fanfiction. I want to see my gays go from toxic hate to true love. I want to see the slow burn. There's something so satisfying about mortal enemies overcoming their hate, setting aside their goals and/or morals for the other person. As much as I love the sweetness, I need some spice, too.
Edit: UGH I was so disappointed about the cancelation of Shadow and Bone.
I really dislike the trope. It feels like pandering...
@@memezurdreamz2203Not really. It can done correctly or not
@@memezurdreamz2203 Huh, I'll admit I'm thoroughly confused by this viewpoint. Pandering? Really? In the end, any trope could be called pandering, tbh. People don't write enemies to lovers just to please an audience. Granted, some authors DO write to pander to an audience, but isn't solely the enemies to lovers trope. Perhaps you haven't read a true enemies to lovers book.
After all, it ain't true love if the couple hasn't tried to off the other. (Said in jest)
I write this trope because I love it, not because my readers want something from me. I write for myself. If I don't, I don't write. The love for writing dies. There's more nuance to this trope than I think people realize--there's more nuance to any trope.
@@brittanyg7700 Right back at you. I find the concept of enemies to lovers completely unrealistic (we're obviously talking about actual enemies here not school rivals or bs like that). What kind of serious love can ever spur out of direct conflict? Friendship is one thing, but love? I don't see it... I mentioned that it feels like pandering, not that it is and that's because it's always forced in some way.
@@memezurdreamz2203 Absolutely. The concept itself sounds impossible, but that's exactly the draw of it. If two enemies can overcome whatever is between them, that's a type of impossible possible hope. That's why slow burn is almost always in combination with enemies to lovers. You're not going to have a satisfying end within 50k words. It needs 200k+ or even more to be realistic. Enemies to lovers is a trope and fantasy of hope.
In a world where so much is falling apart with such polarizing views, there's something comforting about enemies to lovers, about two opposite extremes (good and evil or white and black thinking) coming together in unified compromise. It's not a trope of simple 'pandering.'
When the years passed and it became clear Mappa wouldn't fullfil it's promise with the Yuri on Ice sequel, I expected to at least follow it's creator and director, Sayo Yamamoto (who directed some episodes of big hits like Death Note and Samurai Champloo, and storyboarded one of the Evangelion movies) for more candid stories. But after YoI, she essentially ceased working altogether in animation after 2017. She gave an interview about the episode with the gay kiss, and turns out she struggled a lot to even keep the kiss on the story at all. Theory between fans is that Mappa ceased giving her work in retaliation for refusing to compromise on the kiss (that the audience doesn't even get to see, it's blocked from view) due to this interview followed by +7 years of inactivity.
Very sad. Hope she makes manga with more creative liberties like how Miyazaki made Nausicaa manga to expand the story and different,more somber ending
Agreed. I think she should be making manga
Really we need to crowd fund some smaller independent studiosand just make our own stuff.
I guess my question is: Are we at the point where we have had enough Good representation to have Bad representation?
That depends on where you are in the world.
If both appear in the same work, whether there's "enough" in other works becomes a less important question.
No. Not yet anyway. Take that from a heterosexual all too familiar with the bigoted lot - They will find any excuse to twist a good LGBTQIA villian's actions to feet the narrative of: They are evil BECAUSE they are LGBTQIA; not INSPITE of.
Howmany decades of queer people only being villains/closeted vs like 2 decades of good rep.
The thing is it usually works out the other way. Bad representation usually comes before good representation. There's also the discussion between good and bad, accurate and inaccurate, desirable and undesirable representation. Too often I see representation branded 'bad' if it's not how an individual personally identifies or if they are human and have problems, especially when those problems stem from an identity.
it’s a little sad to me that SU gets used as an example of just ‘wholesome queer rep’ here when there is still reactionary disgust towards the messy and very much explicit relationship of pearlrose in the show. so many people are saying “why not have both”. SU has both! it’s very bizarre that the show is mentioned in this way when it is just straight up untrue. steven universe very much has a place in this conversation but it is far more complex, nuanced, and different than how it is used here.
That's one of the things that made SU so good - even some of the best of the good guys would do some really awful things in a different sphere of their lives, and reconciling that is a big part of the characters' journeys.
@Rotom0479 That is true. Sometimes it worked out in the end, and other times it really didn't. Maybe if they had actual writers instead of the boarders doing whatever they felt like & one disgraced comics writer hired for the actual scripts, it'd be better.
@Rotom0479 Yeah, i just noticed the sheer volume of spam replies being a dick you're leaving. My bad for thinking you weren't just a bigot with too much free time.
Oh, I forgot to add that the film The Rules of Attraction (never read the book) had some pretty flawed but interesting LGBTQ characters that were hyperbolic but realistic-adjacent. I knew a few guys in college that fit that characterization.
Oh yes, i love still very hot ian summerholder , ok the actress did a bloody good job too and the other but its whom i remember the most. Serious that actress is great.
I'm straight guy, my favorite LGBT character is Hannibal, he is 100% evil, the series is amazing, Mads Mikkelsen plays him so well, him and Will have an amazing chemestry, but their relationship isn't healthy at all, so for an "bad" representation for a LGBT character he is and still the best for me
and no redemption or forgiveness. I want a queer villain doing awful things and still look fabulous and scary doing it. I want to be disgusted!
I want to see an abusive relationship between two women, and ACTUALLY BE SHOWN AS A BAD THING! (Looking at you Catradora) We need to talk about abusive women, something society seriously thinks it doesn't exist!
and you know what I really REALLY want? I want creators to own up their badies. Like, I want them to show a disfunctional couple, and not sugar couted, or blame the victim, or trying to make one like a uwu baby did nothing wrong since he is gay (Looking at you stolitz. be better)
What's wrong with Catradora? Frankly, it was beautiful depiction of a friendship that turned toxic and became stronger for it. Also wasn't that this with Stolas a Pilot thing?
Redemption arcs are a thing because, well, it's easy to make a villain as you describe but a real challenge to get them to turn themselves around. And while ambition doesn't replace quality, I will admire the effort when it comes from the soul than the pocket.
@@matt0044 ruclips.net/video/xCU9IteG7Fw/видео.htmlsi=rlQgfb1f74fuXzpb nah more than a pilot thing
Where would you say Valentino from Hazbin Hotel falls on this spectrum?
Catradora isn't an abusive relationship they're literally enemies.
I mean, CatraScorpia is right there.
@@CrowTR0bot Valentino is the perfect example of an evil queer and thats what people are looking for, the scummy side of the community that cant just be flipped on its head with a "everyone can be a good person if they just try" because there are people like valentino who can never and will never change no matter the amount of chances given to them
We need a variety of queer rep with a variety of personalities. Too much rep in the past has been negative.
Wait for my Queer Superhero anarchist band comic, they fight cops and rob the rich while playing sweet metal, it's Sailor Moon and Metalocalypse
So… domestic terrorists?
@@garrettsattem4799 RUclips commenter pitches reboot of failed Indie comic 'Ignited'
@@garrettsattem4799 AmeriKKKa is a terrorist country, the band is stopping that
@@garrettsattem4799 They're domestic terrorists only to cops and the rich.
On a similar note, this is why I like female characters who are not "likable" in the traditional sense. Even if I may have my own "they could've handled this better" thoughts on it, The Legend of Korra's titular protagonist was always a selling point. She got mad, she got frustrated, she was as far of a cry from Aang as they get. And I loved her for it. Her journey as the Avatar felt like my journey into the adult world and being frustrated, especially with my autism.
Characters like her break social norms just as I often do just by being... me. So much so that they polarize fandoms with how a lot of us are not immune to the social background radiation of lingering bigotries. I mean, TERFs being a thing only proves as much.
So we need "Bad" representation in the sense of characters who break the unspoken rules of our world and make us question them.
Would Diane from Bojack horseman count? She is such a hated character but honestly she was probably one of the realest characters in the show to me
@@weirddd469 Have seen the show in a while but from what I recall, yeah.
@@weirddd469 wait, people hate diane??
Korra was the worst avatar smh.
@Rotom0479 *shrugs* Well, I downright adore her. So I'd say they did something right with her.
Stuff like this always just makes people yell about how one is better than the other which sucks because both should be aloud to exist without people constantly getting into fights
Farley Granger was a gay man who played gay-coded villains in Rope and Strangers on a Train.
I saw those films, and I thought they were "gay-obvious" rather than "gay-coded".
Saw this title the first thing I actually thought of was Tuca and Bertie, or more specifically Tuca's ex Kara.
Basically, Kara wasn't a good girlfriend to Tuca. Kara was fairly controlling and insensitive to how Tuca felt or wanted to live her life. You felt bad for Tuca because she was really trying to be in a serious relationship for once. Tuca comes off as very confident, but she has her own insecurities about where her future lies. The interesting part about this, is it felt like the genders were a non-factor in this situation. This was simply an exploration of Tuca figuring out what she wants and how she yearns for a special relationship.
Kara also felt like a complex person on her own. Shallow in some ways, but also capable of changing (even if it wasn't with Tuca). It's very easy to hate Kara for some aspects, but also see how she could be likeable in other situations. Even Tuca admits at the end of the last season that Kara may be a sh*tty person, but she's a good nurse (Kara helped during a medical emergency with Tuca). I also feel like I've seen or met people like Kara. Sometimes you can't tell right away something is off about someone, until you get to know them better.
And while the next serious relationship Tuca would end up trying was with a guy named Figgy, this still didn't feel like a case of "making the gay relationship seem bad, and the hetero relationship better." There were different problems Tuca faced with Figgy. He seemed much sweeter and thoughful than Kara, but had an alcohol addiction. This was again, Tuca navigating how to be in a serious relationship with a complex character.
James Somerton fell flat on his face so Ant could *soar*
I'd say they're pretty similar except the stealing part (I hope)
It's nice to finally hear someone else with this opinion. Way to many people in media flat out refuse that any type of minority can be represented as anything other than perfect
Steven Universe characters are criticized all the time for being "problematic" too, since they were intentionally made to be very flawed and many have done something bad.
@Rotom0479Not horribly written but certainly some flaw yet is very overhated by everyone.
@Rotom0479 I wish I could love anything as much as you hate Steven Universe lol.
@Rotom0479 I think enough people have stated the good, the bad, and the overstated over the years, that ranges from understandable criticism to full blown hate boner, that I really don’t about your opinion at this point. 😜
One of my favorite “bad” gay characters is Clay from Moral Orel. He’s a terrible person who happens to be Bi and that’s exactly what I want from any lgbt character. A character that happens to be lgbt.
The podcast The Magnus Archives is my personal favorite piece of queer media for so many reasons, and one is the fearlessness with which the queer characters (basically the entire cast btw) are represented.
It’s spinoff, The Magnus Protocol, has a trans character named Alice who is loud, annoying, lewd, slightly mysterious, and hilarious. She’s the first trans main character I’ve ever been exposed to and she’s wonderful because she is so flawed and “out there;” she’s not a “safe” queer character to appease cishet people, she’s a queer icon.
this!!! the magnus podcasts have been some of my favorite queer media of all time because of this.
The Magnus Archives is queer? how it just a horror podcast/audio drama
@@kituzolkin haha its very queer! if you want to find out "how" i guess you'll have to listen to it!
I've been saying this for years. There's space for the sanitized stuff, but there's just as much room for messier queer rep that I just don't see much of anymore. Give me earnest bad taste and disaster protagonists over the commercial stuff any day.
I absolutely agree
I'd recommend Deadloch for messy queers in an insane crime drama, they're disasters (affectionate)
But I mean, Velma is right there. Idk if you could get worse rep. of lgbt people then Velma.
Problem is the show sucks. A crappy show undermines representation. If anything, a bad show makes others thinks representation is the problem and they look the wrong way as to why a show sucks.
(Velma sucks because it's mean spirited and hates the Scooby-Doo fandom in general.)
Problem is the show is also bad.
@@agramuglia Write a better one.
@@agramuglia i think hellohuman was being sarcastic
@@navarog378 I probably could, given enough of a budget.
Oh you could do a whole ass video on the sanitized representation of Overwatch. Whats weird is that the male characters they throw us more or less run the spectrum of queerness, but the girls they revealed as queer are one specific type of lesbian. Where are the bi and ace Overwatch girls Blizzard?
My favourite gay artist is David Wojnarowicz. He was so passionate and rage-filled, he cussed and openly expressed his disdain for the politicians and religious leaders who enabled the AIDS crisis. And his rawness made sense - he was a broke bum for most of his life, had to hustle from a young age. Listening to him, you get the impression that he's not the nicest guy to be around, but his writing and photography are just so intense, and he was speaking truth. I wish we had characters like that - queer rebel hobos. Not glamorous, not heroic. Mean, neurotic, financially precarious... but passionate and vigilant, attentive to the systems ruling society. Maybe that's also an idealized picture and not realistic, but I hunger for this kind of representation.
A very short answer is that bland or corporate cleanness is always way more common that true art so it makes sense that LBGTQ representation is gonna be bland as well but it's better to include them even if it's bland or bad.
honestly messy queer rep is one of the reasons why I love The Dragon Prince on Netflix. There are rival generals who put aside their differences and learn and grow, even if they still mess up by being less than empathetic (Amaya, who's also deaf, and can sometimes punch first and ask questions later) or confident (Janai, who's grieving and never really wanted to be queen). There are married queens who, along with other characters, go along with a magical organ harvesting plot line but only to save their kingdoms from starvation (was it the RIGHT choice? who knows); there's another married couple between a master blacksmith who initially shuns their daughter for her perceived betrayal, and an assassin who's rigid and uncompromising to his detriment (he kinda killed the MC's dad) but still deserves salvation (his daughter is another main character). Even Soren and Corvus as another mlm couple and how Soren's arc with his morally corrupt family (sort of) continues to progress
Most of all I think of Terry (season four onwards main character) who's trans, has a coming out scene and wears a visible binder. He's a loving boyfriend to a main antagonist, Claudia. He's kind hearted and her moral compass, but he still kills a man (and breaks down crying) and can be too accepting of some of the terrible things she's done. He's a great example of how someone can be kind and loving but still accordingly biased and dangerously blase about things he could arguably take a stand about... and he's only 1 of 3, probably 4 depending on how the next season goes, trans / NB characters in the series
The sanitization also means you're gonna get just the first 4 letters as well at best (and probably fem). As someone who is aspec, it's harder to even have crumbs of any rep to begin with. Very few even begin to touch it let alone get it correct. Or conflate ace and aro as the same thing when the umbrella is so diverse. (I think Todd from Bojack is like the only notable one some folks would recognize) There's so much room for messy queer stories! Let me have them and with other identities!
Agreed. Todd is the only ace character on TV that's an adult, who has stories beyond his coming out, and that has stories that have nothing to do with being ace. If I see one more "teenager learns they're ace and then vanishes forever from the show" like we've been getting (and strictly in teen dramas, not any wider genres), I will scream.
Heck Jugghead and Sheldon both got rewritten to not be Asexual. We have Asexual erasure the same way we used to have bi erasure in the 90's/00's.
Speaking of the acronym, it would be great to have intersex rep, that doesn't treat the person as a freak, or give incorrect information, or use outdated language.
@@SkyeID Agreed!
Yea I'm noticing a trend where people misconstrue minorities with faults as bad writing like that isn't kinda just wrong in itself. If a white straight guy can be a villain why can't everyone else without it being giga criticized more than the classic
It’s like people have forgotten about “be gay do crime”
I do agree we need Queer villains, whose motives aren't related to be Queer. Complex Queer villains.
I said their motives should not revolve around being Queer, because no str*ight villain's motives revolve around being str*ight...
@@chookiemunster
Except Frollo
@@austinreed7343
Frollo's motives were because he was a creep, it was drunk with power, no one dared to oposse him, until Esmeralda.
If he had been any sort of queer, he would still be a creep.
@@austinreed7343 any villain motivated by romantic love or lust are motivated by their sexuality in some way
@@chookiemunster I find it fucking hilarious that you censored straight for no reason
I know that a 'certain youtube plagerist' brought up a similar point, but this is why I like the works of Vivziepop (in particular Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss). Her queer characters are great and feel real because they are messy and chaotic, that's what draws us in, it coments on and expands on the character writing. They are not "queer characters", they are characters whoes queerness is just one part of them not the whole.
thats honestly why Valentino is perfect the way he is, he's a scumbag who truly belongs in hell. He feels no remorse and is willing to commit the most horrible actions against others for his own gain, He will never change no matter if he were to find out redemption is possible, he loves where he is and what he does. He isnt defined by his queerness, he's defined by the fact that he's an awful person with tar where his heart should be and the fact that he's queer is just a small side note in the whole fucked up package that is his personality.
I love the Hannibal and Interview With The Vampire series for their complex and villainous lgbt character. “Good” representation can get boring and overly simple quick
My favorite example of this has to be dead plate. Our main antagonist is, spoliers///
(Last chance the game is really good go play it)
so fucking gay he kills the main characters girlfriend, COOKS HER AND FEEDS HER TO OUR MC out of jelousy and an attempt to make him a dish he'll actually like, then later tries to EAT HIM ALIVE because he is so convinced that he will actually be able to taste the mc (uhh lore lore backstory he lost his sense of taste at a young age) because... well, he loves him, albeit in his own sick, twisted way. Absolutely perfect, had me make shook
The Yuri on Ice segment is just so cathartic for me as a long time fan who was waiting for the movie. It’s just devastating to see the iconic IP discarded like garbage when it paved the foundation for their other anime successes. I hope you eventually make a video, and I’ll be looking forward to your other content in the meantime.
@Rotom0479 girl I am 😭😭😭
The main problem with queer villains is not that they are villains, but conservative people. Conservatives will cancel the "good" queer characters and only leave the "bad" queer characters, as happened before with the Hays Code, when a queer character was only allowed if they were the villain. So, a young person will only see that "being queer is being a villain."
If people want a show centered around bad messy gay people I would recommend AMC's Interview With The Vampire. Louis, Lestat, Armand, etc all do some messed up things in the show. Its tragic, toxic and full of drama while giving us prestige TV quality. The show is amazing.
@Rotom0479 It's a good thing I think the books are not good and that changes to it are for the better. The changes are why I gave the show a chance. Show Louis is a much more interesting character than book Louis will ever be.
@Rotom0479 First off, the books are canonically gay (it was basically only subtext in the first book). Louis in the books is one of the most boring, one-dimensional characters I have read. Even Anne Rice got bored with him, which is why he barely appears until the last few books where he is the "True love" of Lestat even tho Anne Rice at multiple points tried to replace him as the central love interest. Not that any of the later books were decent (if you did not get to the Atlantis book, I salute you). Anne Rice loves being edgy for the sake of being edgy.
The show adds depth and agency to the character that just was not there in the books. He plays a more active role in the key events of the first book but with extra steps (His guilt for causing a race riot is the reason why Claudia gets turned in the show. Instead of Lestat just turning her to tie Louis to him in the book. Louis, in the show, is actively the reason why Lestat is alive because he stops Claudia from killing him after the poison; he doesn't just let things happen). This action makes it make sense why Lestat would still want to be with Louis in later books because Louis has shown that he keeps constantly choosing him over everyone. It, in turn, makes the Claudia and Louis relationship more interesting because of how strained it gets (while getting rid of the weird, edgy, sexual blood-drinking dynamic they had in the book) The racial elements add a new dynamic to basically all of Louis' relationship. Like Book Louis, he is depressed, but there is anger to him that Book Louis does not have because of all the pent-up rage he has being black and gay in a time period when racism and homophobia were rampant.
I can’t even be fully mad at Brad Pitt for not even trying to act well in the movie and hating the character because Book Louis sucks.
@Rotom0479 LOL Anne Rice herself even wrote what Louis and Lestat marriage/wedding would look like. It's no secret that she based them on her and her husband. Which makes her sidelining Louis even more hilarious. Show Louis is Book Louis if he was not boring and badly written. Book Louis can stay away.
Also, Anne Rice signed off on the changes for the show.
@Rotom0479 2 is super easy to answer. Anne Rice has made it clear that Louis was stand in for her and the grief she was dealing with and that Lestat was a stand in for her husband and how she felt so anger at him (To quote her "Stan is Lestat") Lestat even shares the same birthday as her husband and Louis has her birthday. Interview with the vampire was her way of grieving her daughter's death which Claudia represented and the tumultuous relationship she was in (Louis and Lestat) . Like this is not a secret.
@Rotom0479 1. Lestat himself says Louis is his lover In The Vampire Lestat and throughout the rest of the vampire chronicles. They even kiss (multiple times but they are short and not described in detail from what I remember) and he becomes his consort (Blood sucking is the equivalent to sex for them). Have you read past the first book? Anne Rice philosophy is all the Vampires in her books are bisexual. A quote from realms of Atlantis "He crossed the hall and put his arms around me and kissed me on the lips " (Lestat and Louis kiss).
3 and 4 are just subjective. I can say season 2 is currently tied on metacritic with Babyreinder as the best rated show by critics this year and both seasons are 90%+ on rotten tomatoes with high average scores from critics but that does not matter if you yourself don't like the show.
I appreciate and agree with what you said here, though I do think Steven Universe doesn't entirely fit as an example of simple/wholesome gay rep. There definitely is that vibe to a lot of it, but it has some surprisingly complex and even toxic relationships in there-- Pearl and Rose, Lapis and Jasper, that one dubcon fusion plotline with Pearl and Garnet... Heck, even Ruby and Sapphire, the fairytale couple themselves, have their own issues to work through before they can have their happily ever after.
based. if we cant have deeply flawed lgbtqia characters we will never have real lgbtqia character arcs.
As a gay man myself, I want to see a gay or bisexual man with flaws including heroes. That's why I love iron bull.
Iron Bull is freaking fantastic
@@agramuglia Also love your video.
my favorite queer or queer coded 'villains' that were complicated in a good way:
1. Ozymandius in Watchman is pretty clearly gay, does insanely evil things, but... ya get it. He has a point.
2. Silco in Arcane is queer coded and is arguably the real hero of the story, as he and Viktor are the only characters who give a shit about the oppressed classes.
3. OG Sailor Moon had SO MUCH queer representation it's CRAZY and they were all well-rounded characters with their identities just part of who they are, not the focus. Zoisite + Kunzite and Fisheye are my queens.
I want you to come back with that third point at the end of the month. i have something planned
@@agramuglia >(0 W 0)
A couple of thoughts:
1/ I'm uninterested in stories that try to make us less queer for the straights. They are so prevalent that many queer people have internalized that our stories ought to look like Love Simon and Young Royals while rejecting stories like Bros and Q-Force.
So few stories involve queer communities.
2/ Neil Gaiman based stories (The Sandman, Dead Boy Detectives, Good Omens) set the standard for me now.
Queer characters just exist. The story doesn't have to be about their suffering as queers. The stories don't have to justify having queer characters and relationships just as stories don't have to justify the existence of straight characters or relationships. We are in the stories because we exist in Real Life.
And even characters, who on paper would be problematic stereotypes, work. The Corinthian would fit into the long history of evil murderous gays - except the context has sufficient diverse queer characters that his queerness doesn't define his evil.
During Grant Morrison’s run on Doom Patrol from the late 80s early 90s had the villains Brain and Monsieur Mallah become lovers. I don’t know if that plot line made it to the TV series since I only saw the first episode.
They were in one of the later seasons. I forget if they said anything explicit about their relationship but the coding was thick as hell.
@@wblakekimber I can almost understand why if they didn’t. Those that don’t know anything about the absurdist nature of the Doom Patrol could understandably get upset that a gorilla and a brain in a robot suit were portrayed as gay lovers.
I know it's at the very least implied in My Adventures with Superman, but I'm not sure about the Doom Patrol TV show.
@@lalas181 I haven’t watched that yet. Is it any good?
@@jeremyhague2119 My Adventures with Superman is great. And Adult Swim are streaming the first five episodes on a loop on RUclips right now. (sadly the Brain and Monsieur Mallah are in episode 6)
as queer, we are not naturally good nor evil for being queer. We're just people. And as people we're not perfect
The queer coded villain may have come into existence because of the Hayes code, but they stuck around because they were strong, entertaining characters. Especially nowadays, those traits will not be viewed as an intrinsically villainous trait, hell we've un-queered many of the traits they have had and fully recognized that some people, even straight men are just obsessed with looking good.
As someone who is queer, and who’s bullies were also queer, we need more “evil“ queer characters. Im currently trying to put together a pilot for a show with a pansexual villain.
Fr I noticed that pansexual characters have this chaotic energy that makes them fun to watch.
....Moral Orel. That's it.
This is actually such a good example!
Oh, definitely.
I wish James Somerton were a fictional character. His whole thing where he's lazy, horny & can't take responsibility for basic shit is so relatable.
What a great video, you covered the pressures of why properly written LGBT characters mostly haven't happened and why it's bold for well written characters to exist. The subject really cannot exist without talking about the pressures of capitalism, I feel you did really good job covering this subject, and I hope this sparks good discussion with many and rise awareness of the current core issues of why we don't have the best writing possible.
Thanks for taking your time giving the proper focus the subject deserves. I learned a lot with the older movies and examples outside of my lived experience, thanks for that. I feel older context is important to understand older generations perspective, as media does have a large influence on generational thinking, even if it's just subconscious.
Also, RIP Yuri on Ice.
Wonder what kind of multi hour video essays from the usual suspects this video will generate.
Who knows? I don't directly criticize them in this one, so it could be nothing or it could be something.
I started biting my nails from the moment you mentioned Tumblr, praying for Vivziepop to not be brought up. Thank god there was none of it.
I respect her as a person, her creativity, passion and her success story in general, she's an artist who made it big, it is inspiring, but I just can't get over how much I hate her actual work, especially the writing and most of the characters.
I assume you are talking about Hazbin Hotel (& similar)? I persoanly havn't watch it, I know it has its week and strong points, but I'm curios about what exactly you don't like about the characters?
@@nuotatorre8741 Helluva Boss, i don’t watch it but i think a man character named Moxxie has an abusive relationship with another man
@@jonal5126I think you mean Blitzo? Moxxie is the one married to a woman.
@@nuotatorre8741 my main problems are Blitzo, Angel Dust and Loona. All three are absolutely unlikable, with little to none redeeming qualities, which should be fine on paper, they are in hell, good people don't end up in there, and demons shouldn't be positive role models, but both shows try their hardest to make me care for them, for some damn reason. Make them into some kind of tragic figures.
I'm sorry, but that just don't work on me. I don't care about traumas, bad childhoods or shitty parents, if characters are acting like despicable assholes for most of the time, with a few scenes of normal behavior here and there, I will treat them as toxic bastards.
@@TheThirtyFourth Ok I understand than. Thanks
Maybe correct wording would be a full spectrum of representation. Good example would be Robot dreams. It is the story of relationship not going the way you planned and moving on. So a very bittersweet tale.
This is exactly why i love helluva boss so much. The characters are allowed to be bastards bc they're literally demons from hell. They have messy relationships, self sabotage, face trauma, create chaos, commit crimes, swear, kill, etc. Yet we still love them and route for them to succeed.
Another example:
Bandai Namco released Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch From Mercury, to great success, and the central relationship revolves around two women who GET MARRIED AT THE END.
Bandai tried to downplay this by saying its "open to interpretation", but in a RARE twist, the creatives involved in WfM werent having it and reinforced just how gay the two protagonists are, and Bandai ended up witg egg on its face.
My favorite tidbit about this whole thing was the official Witch from Mercury event that happened while this "controversy" was still going on that was made to resemble a wedding reception. Clearly Sunrise was not aware Bandai was going to pull this crap either.
Chucky is the first time I seen Walter’s
What's Walter's?
My favorite Gay movie is The Birdcage, simply because of how ridiculous it is. I love how funny it is, the jokes, and how real the characters feel. The parents are gay, but in no way are they perfect. there's a constant back and forth with them, yet they're willing to get together to try helping their son pull off the stunt, make the parents of the girl he likes think he came from a good straight family. I think that movie is a good example of what we need, balance the good and the bad, make them feel like actual people. not characters trying to prove to the straits that they're the same if not better. because then it comes off as too perfect. and too unbelievable.
If we are talking lgbt villains/anti heroes/not exactly the most virtuous people, Let me present:
Baldur’s Gate Astarion and Minthara.
Terribly flawed, bad attitudes, only warms up to you if you make choices I wouldn’t deem as moral, and I love them. Minthara is an evil woman, while Astarion is more anti hero, but still…
I only see bad rep, its harder to find good rep. I'm sick and tired of only reading or watching about gay characters who are bullied, depressed, doing drugs or sleep woth everyone, have anger issues and family problems. Maybe I just want a chill ride
I was not expecting Yuri on Ice to be brought up, but man I was so validated when it was
I'm so glad you mentioned Yuri on Ice! With the recent news of MAPA scrapping the movie, fans were so disapointed. We knew it was not going to happen, after waiting for so long, but finally seeing it happen was just a gut punch.
As a trans woman whose creativity is fired up by low-budget horror, pulp fantasy, and old exploitation movies, seeing the online discourse around 'good' representation bummed me the fuck out and I'm still de-internalizing that kind of brainrot. Understandably, given some of my interests, I find John Waters' ethos relatable and I really need to delve into his work more.
I'm just worried about the aftermath of having these flawed LGBTQ+ characters and villains. I would absolutely love to see more of them, but what if the conservatives point to these characters and say that children will get influenced by their gayness and their bad behaviour now? Plus I don't know if you guys in the west know this, but in India specifically, Gay is still used as an insult. It's like 2024, and gay is still used as an insult. In fact, I feel as though my society is actually going backwards. The kids around me use the n word to refer to themselves. They are giving us hope that maybe gay marriage will be legalized, then taking all that away. I'm just not sure if the world, at least India and other conservative countries, are ready for these characters. Plus there is already lots of transphobic sentiments going on these days. I hope the world can come to the day where I, as an Indian person, can clearly declare that I am bisexual, without it causing discomfort, pressure, sadness, loneliness and grief.
As if people don't have a crooked view of Christians or Muslims due to hollywood and biased medias
I'm a Black woman. We had more positive rep than one could shake a stick at from the 70s through the 90s, filled with middle class to wealthy families from Moesha to the Huxables to Uncle Phil and Aunt Viv to Joan and her friend group from _Girlfriends._ None of that stopped white folks from voting for Trump.
Making ourselves more palatable didn't win bigots over. Hell, even electing the lightest skinned Black guy with eloquent speech wasn't enough to turn the needle and arguably is why people snapped hard in 2016.
I don't think continuing to make only the most safe projects for mass appeal is going to work out any better for the queer community than it did for us 🤷♀️
@@yoggothemadgod6196I'm pretty sure people have biases against Christian because many have either been raised in toxic church communities or know five people who have. If anything the portrayals in media was born directly out of creatives' own experience.
@@KariIzumi1 Ahh but you see America is a more liberal country overall... You had those good portrayals of your culture already, and it didn't work out, yes, but the difference in India is that we haven't had those good portrayals of LGBTQ+ folk honestly... It's used as a plotline or a bad thing, and never truly explored beyond that point. So I don't know how people in my country would react to flawed LGBTQ+ characters. Hell, most people don't even like their own skin colour. Positive LGBTQ+ rep, flawed characters and all, seems like a very out of reach dream. Even now.
It's like development is very late. For example, my parents hadn't watched any television until the 2000's and even then, the channels they had were news channels. So I don't know how many years it will take for people to accept LGBTQ+ in the first place, let alone in the media and especially with flawed characters.
I’ve had enough coffee house gay rep. I want the gay version of beavis and butthead.
I'd watch that lol
So Beavis and Butthead, but they fuck.
I personally go with the following mantra: If in my country I will already be rated 18+, why should I be less edgy for other regions and not fill in the gaping hole of edgier LGBTQ+ media?
"We need bad queer rep"
Bruh She-Ra and the Princesses of Power ended in 2020 and there's still people calling Catra an abuser and bad rep and blah blah despite the fact that her redemption was handled better than Zuko.
When Q-Force came out it got eviscerated despite being a beautifully animated/ ok series.
Most people don't have the media literacy nor the self awareness to handle "bad" representation.
I disagree. I think that's underestimating the audience
Q-Force's main problem was the awful trailer that made it look like a show that appealed to no one. I've heard that it's actually pretty good since then, but haven't found the time to go back and watch it.
I’m sorry but don’t compare Zuko redemption arc with Catra, Zuko was handled way better than Catra
Ok but Catra honestly sucked?? I like 'bad queer rep' my favorite character is joker lol, so I don't care that she was evil.
But Catra is abusive, and my main problem is that the show doesn't treat it as such. She is shown being physically abusive to Adora before she becomes a villain (when they are kids) and afterwards too. Not to mention all the emotional abuse.
Now, if the show acknowledged this, I would be fine. But... It doesn't really.
@@kirakoraawesome you're proving my point
Meanwhile Helluva Boss left its audience debating which member of the lead gay couple is the shittier person for three months while they wait for the next episode.
I’m still half way through the video, but I just wanna say: We need to accept LGBTQ+ Rights AS WELL as LGBTQ+ wrongs!!!
In fiction right. Not irl right. Oh fuck.
@Rotom0479obvious troll is obvious
Most don't know this but FW Murnau was gay. He's most famous for Sunrise, The Last Laugh, Tabu, and (the one you're probably familiar with) Nosferatu.
@Rotom0479why are you even here
20:10 MAN, it seriously is interesting hearing you say this, the projection is just absolutely insane. There's so many videos talking about "snowflakes and safe spaces, offended". But even a hint of queer rep gets people making video essays about how media is too woke. MAN I'm glad I didn't spend my life being like that. It really is freeing to see how wrong I was to believe that stuff, I'm excited to like...move forward and just learn more.
I feel like I hear this every once and awhile lately, and honestly I just kind of feel like... consume different shows then because there hasn't really been a shortage of evil LGBTQA characters. People just promote the positivity when they like to see it (mostly because it's been historically rare).
Also, no, you can't Scare straights into tolerating gays either, otherwise there would be no racism or social disparity against Black people in the USA and Biden wouldn't be looking to reinstate Trump era border policies. Lol
So in short, the avoidance of messy LGBT+ representation is all Tumblr's fault? I remember the website is also responsible for the pro vs. anti shipping wars that's been taking place on Twitter recently.
Tumblr was co-opted by terfs and far right Christians running psy-ops
Great video!
Though, if Disney were honest, they'd recognize that they introduced their first queer character in 1998 (three guesses who it was!).
Shang
No, it was 1986, Basil in The Great Mouse Detective. Gay and/or ace king, that mouse. 😄
@@erraticonteuse Oh, yeah! Duh. I do headcanon that Basil and Ratigan are exes (Basil being gay and Ratigan being bi, like his VA).
@@agramugliaGOOD GUESS BC YOU'RE SO RIGHT
Gargoyles came out in 1994, actually.
Confidently, i just today watched a classic Soviet animation 20 minute musical that i watched when i was a little child, that i can see be *Easley* adapted into a messy queer story.
The film is an adaption of the bremen musicians.
The 2 musicals are with English subtitles on RUclips
@Rotom0479 cry nazbol
@Rotom0479oh fuck off. You’ve made your point, you hate us for existing.
In the end, many people just want one thing, a good well-written story.
The kind of story that has character A goes through changes and betters themselves for the times ahead, while character B goes through major growth changing their ways and opening up to A, while character C shows that although they have some level of good intention to help their people what they are doing is still pure evil and is only destroying the lives of all the other people of the world just for their own gain.
People want stories showing struggle, growth, triumph, failure, loss, gain, good, and evil. We all love stories that have us question the morals and motives of all the characters making us all think that one or more characters were right. Stories that have someone lose something or someone dear to them and instead of becoming the same thing that took what was theirs they become better, or become worse. Perhaps a story with a hero barely saving the day, or not able to save it at all.
At the end of it all, to me, people are pointing at the LGBT+ community when it comes to media that doesn't hit the mark, putting all the blame on them for making in some cases really bad stories. It is what it is, an easy scapegoat. But in some cases it is true, and it's those few instances where it is true that create the problem. Where the story is completely lost and the characters have no meaning or purpose in order to "support" the LGBT+ community only helps serve the narrative of "LGBT+ can't make stories, get them out" And I say support with quotes for a reason, if they really want to give the support they won't go out of their way to over exaggerate or in some cases misinterpret and misrepresent the community entirely. The reason companies do this is because they know they will get people talking about their product, but talking about it in a bad way and in a means that doesn't help nor serve anyone besides the company itself. It has to be said for what it is, the LGBT+ community's willingness to be overly inclusive and accepting doesn't help it in this case. Many willingly allow companies to blatantly misinterpret, misrepresent, and exaggerate their very existence, their thoughts feelings, and interests. All are pushed in a way that doesn't support them yet they accept the false support. May it be because the work is being attacked for mentioning LGBT+ or because LGBT+ topics are within the work itself it is only self-defeating to allow yourself to be misinterpreted and accept a false version of yourself to be viewed by the world, allowing the world to think of you in this way. The only way to bring back real story writing that brings viewers back again and again for years is to not only make sure the stories we are given are just so but also put those who make bad work, for any reason, are held to the fire and given the ability to improve or lose viewers. If bad work is being called out for what it is and said reason is valid, then the creator should be called out. Not protected because they did at least try and make some version of the LGBT+ community even if that version was wrong in some way and may hurt the community.
The more bad writing is praised and protected the more of it we will get, and the more incorrect depictions of groups we will also get as we allow whitens to show the world versions of oneself that don't represent the group as a whole. At some point, people must learn to rely on that companies are likely doing this at this rate in order to get people to their product. Perhaps people need to see if what was said about it was true, perhaps in order to look deeper into it to see if some message is hidden within, or perhaps just to get people talking about them and their product. It doesn't matter, what they are doing is trying to farm money from both sides and create a divide in the process. Do you truly believe there would be the same amount of hate for the LGBT+ community if companies made better stories involving them instead of stories made for monetary gain? People hate a bad story and in this case, they are using the community to vent their anger and use it as a scapegoat, and nothing will change so long as the LGBT+ community allows others to use them and get away with it. Work must be done to call them out when they do wrong, or else the cycle of things will continue as is and only get worse.
The movie blaming Simon is one thing that made me dislike the movie. It made me feel like they made Simon responsibility’s to come out when he didn’t felt safe and their friends later confirming that insecurity
the thing is - people tend to forget that characters are supposed to be fictional people. the keyword - people. their personalities can go in many messy ways because you can always find people who went those messy ways. gender, orientation, race - those are not defining features, those are not the features personality is build around. gay person can be cute shop guy or intimidating restaurant owner or just some random guy on the street you don't have any reasons to pay attention to. because it's not like it's gay person being someone - it's someone being gay. some hypothethical thief out there in prison can be bi but that would not make them a biphobic event. yet when it comes to characters - they would probably call that biphobic. when it's just a character with their set of traits.
Great video! Although I appreciate the good representation in children media in shows like Craig of the Creek for example, I agree that we need more nuanced portrayals in all genres and categories
One of my favorite characters in media is an "evil" gay, Clay Puppington from Moral Orel. Clay is bisexual but over that he's a raging alcoholic, an abusive father, a terrible husband and just a really bad person in general and the show makes a point to not separate those parts of him, when he's with the man he's in love with he doesn't become a nice softer palatable version of himself because that version doesn't exist, he doesn't get a redemption either cause he doesn't deserve it after all the things he does, his sexuality is a relevant an explicit part of his character and plays a big part in his story but it is not all of it, it is not the cause of his suffering not his salvation, just another layer to his person. He's gay and pathetic and you love watching him dig his own grave as the show goes on
I would also like to give a shoutout to the webcomic Uriah, an amazing horror series that goes deep into the mind of the most disturbed and twisted characters I've seen and treats them all equally independent of sexuality, and shotout to Vincent specifically, another one of my favorite gay antagonists
I'll be waiting for your next videos! :D
I was gonna make a joke and say Griffith, but then I remembered something he did, and I’m pretty sure he’s straight…
Stares at title, feeling spicy are we lol. I agree with the title premise though. Time for me to watch the whole thing :D