The Vote for Role Debate | Town of Salem 2
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Thumbnail art by @atsekabe
Whether we should use VFR or not has become a pretty hot topic lately. This is a pro-VFR video that aims to explain why it’s a good strategy that should continue to stay in use
Question for the dev: Have there been any roles that were added to the game which recieved the complete opposite reaction than what you expected? Whether it was a role that you thought wouldnt be that great but the community ended up loving it or a role you expected to be a fan favorite but got a minimal or possibly negitive response.
if there was one Im assuming it would be wildling or spy since spy was horribly nurfed and now buffed again and wildling was a super buffed tracker and had to get nerfed
that or coroner since everyone doesn't like it and is the worst TI
Until something better is proposed, I will be using VFA in games.
No wonder you're overused XD jk
I think VFA is slightly better but VFR is better used in ToS1.
What is VFA?
@@epicducc3449vote for alignment e.g tp or ti or ts or tpow
Hear me out.
You tell them to claim 2 separate, but similar roles, this will counter Doomsayer and Rit, and still gives info to town on a general consensus on what you are.
Such as, if you are BG, instead of claiming TP, you say:
I am BG, or Cleric.
You’ll have to be upfront with town about why you’re claiming like this, but it seems like a very powerful idea (In my opinion)
@@chicklucas6682 feels like VFA but more clunky.
If you're good at being evil, you shouldn't be worried of VFR. Even less inTos2. Tos2 gives so much more wiggle room with the invest rework.
Awesome video, thank you Adagia!
In my opinion, vfr is good for town. Even when just claiming your alignment. It forces evils into a early game claim. When everyone has claimed, evils are now stuck with it and cant pick a better fake claim later.
To the TOS dev. Is there a chance the mafia faction will return, or are you going to add some other faction? Also thank you dev for making this awesome game.
personally, i doubt mafia will return, especially considering coven has appropriated the mafia roles for themselves (medusa = janitor. illusionist = disguiser. enchanter = framer + forger). a second evil faction could be possible, but if it was mafia, then they would be in name only
Maf isnt returning
Personally I don't believe mafia will return, not only because of the reasons listed by Underworlder, but also because Apocalypse has essentially filled the "extra evil faction" gap (with red text and all).
Mafia definitely isn't returning. Not only does it not work with the greater focus on the Salem Witch Trials-inspired setting that TOS2 has, but Coven now has clones of the mafia roles, like Jinx as Ambusher and Enchanter as a hybrid of Forger and Framer. If mafia did return, it would be a completely different faction since obviously they aren't going to have a faction that does the same thing as coven.
Another, brand new evil faction is possible, but it seems unlikely to me unless they also revert to the four coven max, two evil factions with potentially five members each would be ludicrous.
"The Coven has taken over the Town" I think that means there's no greater evil than them other than *THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE* which, to be fair, sound a lot more intimidating than a few witches. The Mafia lost the war for power in the Town.
Question for the devs: Really happy with the balance changes over the course of ToS2. Were there any roles that you anticipated having to nerf / buff before the release of ToS2?
What is the devs view on mods, like better tos and quality of life mod
I 100% agree with VFA/VFR being necessary. Without TI, Town just becomes a sitting duck with no information. They need to do SOMETHING to get info (esp with how cracked Coven is in this game).
Anyways! Question for the dev: Got any tips for aspiring game developers? I *ahem* may or may not have taken up coding after seeing the development process for TiS.
No
@@EnriqueggFair point have a good day. 😂
VFR is a middle ground between everyone claiming to the jailor day 1 and there being no information for town to use (because in a "utopian" world, ToS is simply everyone claiming to a confirmed good guy and then the good guy confirming people/sussing the rest)
Like they always say…
No claim, no life.
Seeing this reminded me of ShadowBeatz's video called 'F VFR'.
I even created a parody song for this as he gets his revenge on Layla XD
(I used Caleb Hyles' Look what you made me do cover as the instrumental for it...)
To quote the lyrics I made for it.
"Vote for role is for people who cannot play this game well,
Some cases it is acceptable but NOT WHEN YOU HAVE A DEAD INVEST N1!'
Please note that is reference to the video. I was trying to write Shadow's frustration in the lyrics. If anyone wants to see the parody edited lyrics, let me know. I wrote them a few years ago and I just found them lol Remember, he was the JAILOR and VFR'd. If I recall from the video, town lost the game because of the VFR.
My opinion: VFR... The sometimes part is in reference to Janitors (Mafia) and Medusa (Coven).
People will have their own opinions of VFR. I choose to remain indifferent to it as it can help town and hinder the evils (unless Jest a Prank Bro.) but it can also be helpful if evils lead VFR too to counter it. I do see good points to it though.
I wish there was a page in the notebook where people could officially post their alignment only if willing. But make it to where you can’t change it once you’ve claimed an alignment. So many times have I been shot or pros because I was low on the list and just a town power that hasn’t felt the need to claim yet.
Being unable to change your claim seems like it goes starkly against the concept of a game about lying.
What you're describing is also a lot like the old admirerer that recently got changed, where refusal to accept the admirer's proposal was seen as an admission of being evil, meaning that making people only have to give alignment if willing puts us right back into the VFR situation where the unwilling get shot and the willing will still complain about how they're forced to give up information and being forced to make suboptimal lies which risks losing them the game. (Because they're not good at lying.)
Ppl who get mad over vfr are the ones who always claim lookout as ambusher and think theyll get away with it for having NV all nights
(sadly, it happens)
Have there been any incidents of hacking? Not like Discord Calls or Multi-Accounting. I mean like that one game someone SPAWNED as Pestilence. Didn’t announce it to town or anything.
my thoughts: a lot of people expected VFR to pretty much die after doom and rit, but imo straight up claiming as non TI is most of the time better than claiming alignment. rit gets massive penalized if they mess up and most aren't willing to take the risk, and doom has to guess 3 people at once, the odds you get killed by one is much lower unless your something like town power.
I don't see an issue with it. I think it's a fair strat. Good evils should be capable of claiming a town alignment at least, least really sell it. I love it, ironically, the challenge of having to blend in as 1, say a WW or Coven. It definitely makes things harder, but I'm not playing to always win easily so I can see both sides :/
Question , is there reworks for any of the new roles being discussed ?
I like VFR, cause I have been in matches were there was no TIs, or the one we had died N1
Question for the interview!
What were the easiest and hardest roles to make in game?
Question: how's your lizard doing? Is he ok?
Frankie’s still being an adorable little brat and has recently taken up the habit of standing on his two back legs, pressing against the glass and staring at me until I let him out.
@@Adagia :)
One of posts that where put up said we used to have to deduce who is lieing but vfa gives you info to deduce with
Question for dev:
Was Coroner added in order to make TI claims safer back when Rit/DS could guess TIs? Or was there another idea for it?
Unfortunately, in some gamemodes (Such as All Any) town is no longer the Uninformed Majority, their just Uninformed. I've seen games with 3 townies in total and while that is rare it is still quite an issue.
all any isnt designed to be a balanced or fair gamemode, so edge cases are probably fine
This isn't related, but once I was in a lobby and someone proposed VFM (Vote For Mix), if you do VFM you say two roles from your faction, your role and a different random one. Sounds like a more secretive VFR to me but meh
hey @adagia are you going to make new quick guides for town of salem 2??? it would be rlly helpful for my friend who has no clue how the game works
Yep yep, stay tuned
I remember in a game yesterday i got everyone’s Alignment and was killed directly the night afterwards once some of the evil doers died in the death chat they got mad at me for doing Vfa
Then call them out for being bad at lying in a game about lying. :v
Actual skill issues.
I don't particularly enjoy VFR/VFA, but what else is there to do? Especially in AA, which is what people play the most, currently. You're not guaranteed a TI, and many of them are fake. A static town is a dead town. "It's casual, it's not supposed to be competitive!" Is also a bad argument. Just because it's not a competitive mode doesn't mean you're obliged to throw the game, not to mention that there's no ranked at this point in time.
Idea: Brainstorming here, but if you REALLY want VFR/VFA gone for good, maybe Ritualist could have a 1-2 night cooldown after a successful kill, but it could kill solely with one's alignment, like Doomsayer can kill a Random Coven?
Considering VFR/VFA exists in a game without Ritualist, no amount of ritualist nerfs will stop VFR.
VFR/A is simply the evolution of game logic to force participation at a time inconvenient for those who would benefit the most from stalling or lying.
The issue with VFR/A is that it doesn’t help you think or anything. It makes the game pointless.
Yes it is meta and it is efficient.
But i’m playing this game to play tricks when i’m evil and to think hard to find evils when i’m town, not to simply list out the roles by something stupid like vfr
I AGREEEEE
Well what is town ment to do say silent and do nothing let evils kill each other?
To some, that seems preferable to having to lie in the social manipulation game.
Heck, lets take it one further, it seems preferable to some when compared to participating the game instead of being an idle spectator to which a win is handed for doing as little as possible.
Question- any reason y in customs we can’t have a role limit like 2-3 mayors or 6 coven
Ngl i feel like this video was made because of a Certain Game.. Just a hunch tbh
Nah, the anti vfr mentality is alive and well in tos2, mostly from new players who don't get what it means yet
The person I got into an argument with in game has no idea the snowball effect it had.
Started talking to my ToS friends about it after and they all had similar experiences, so I thought a PSA-style video would do us all well
VFA instead of VFR imo
I will never understand the mentality of anti vfr people
It's simple.
"I shouldn't have to lie to play the game! I lost because I had to lie about my role (I shouldn't even have to claim!) and lost because people figured out I was lying! My abilities to lie is irrelevant, it's the other people ruining the game by being bullies! I shouldn't have to lie in a game about lying!"
Based opinion
Vote for role is, and has always been negatvie for the game, Newbies get confused, and experienced players can't scumread and makes invest roles seem terrible
Vote for role is, and has always been a positive for the game. Forces everyone to participate and disallows people to stall for time by pretending to be AFK, confused or just waiting for more information to strengthen their lies.
vfr good
It may be effective but it's not fun.
Yes i have to live with being lynched for not playing the game that way. But also the town has to live with loosing people unnecessarily.
Then if your town your just throwing
90% of my town games were lost due to VFR exposing "important" town roles. Whilst only 12% of evil games were lost due to VFR.
The biggest cases were 2 jailor games I had were I both claimed jailor and did not claim jailor, both games had 1 TP who died/dc'ed n1.
Yes I do only have around 100 ranked games but they were after ~2,000 - 3,000 games I had then. (I was 5th in total games at some point) Now I have ~4,800 games with me not playing after 2016, baring 3 games in 2018 and 1 in 2020.
My opinion has always been anti-VFR just because it's outright lost so many town games. Atleast TOS2 has VFA.
VFR is the devs problem to fix, and yes it is a problem because it screws evils for no fault of their own because town randomly decided to vote them and yes it is random the majority of the time since it usually goes from 1 to 15 which is not chosen by any player
Sounds like the evils should follow the scouting mottos: Always Be Prepared!
If you’re an evil, try always claiming tp/cleric. It reduces your death count drastically. TI’s n1 checks also have the potential to make evils claim or cause them to be killed randomly just as easily.
rit and doom make it Impossible for vfr to work all the time
nah they just make it a Vote For Alignment
still works, just not as specific
@@lorathiannot to mention fake claimers absolutely screwing them over
@@lorathian Yeah.
VFA is less oppressive than Vfr and has allows wiggle room for evils.
@@VagueCastle649 …VFR isn’t oppressive
Just have a claim ready and it skips right over you
@@lorathian But having to participate in the game is oppressive and makes me feel bad. I want to spectate and be told I won!
oh boy, VFR, let’s see what this video has to offer
As for my thoughts, VFR doesn’t help evils at all. VFR pressures evils to fake claim as quickly as possible. In ToS2, they should claim their alignment instead of their role though as some roles can punish those who are too ready to mention their actual role. Especially Town Power roles
Edit: one more thing I feel is necessary to add to this point, Town is the uninformed majority. Town has the advantage of votes during the day, being able to use those votes in the early game to get as much information as possible is so valuable for Town.
ik i've lead town with VFR as NK with a fake claim. much like any other strat the community has made, you can manipulate others by using them in ways they will not expect. i've had too many games where i claim invest as arso and scorched everyone town was sus of plus any remaining town.
My thoughts exactly. Evils can use it to manipulate town to their advantage, but that's true of any coordinated strategy town could use.
An aggressive town that is gaining as much information as they can as quickly as possible when TI aren't providing any better leads, is a town that is likely to win.
Town does NOT have the advantage of votes about half of the time in my current TOS2 AA experiences, ive seen games with 12 town and 3 town. Problem is, town has to be carefull to not mislynch while most evils either know who their friends are or are solo and are free to lynch anyone. Town has to actively figure out who to guilty or inno while most evils can just guilty with no worry, while they may not know who eachother are, they dont need too to almost any extent when deciding to guilty or not.
@@astrogamer158 Evils... also have to be careful about who they mislynch. Push for one too hard(or defend a teammate too hard), and you look sus yourself and become a prime target for TI and possibly even TK or Prosecutor. Plus, neutral killers have to be careful when they know there's another of them in the game. Absolutely sucks to lynch your fellow Arso or SK, and now Furries have to worry about that with WW no longer being unique.
Games where town is a minority to begin with are technically possible and do happen from time to time, but the odds of it happening are so low that they're not really worth concerning yourself over them. It's an unfortunate but small and very much inherent risk for all any, no different from getting solo coven in a game with an overpowered town.
@@Missingno_Minerdid you assume WW was a furry? If I get WW I’m mauling someone leaving a fur suit joke as the death note
Despite doom and rit existing, vfr still benifits town, since rit can be outted by them choosing an evil who fake claimed, doom needs to find 3 non ti real claims, and town still heavily benefits from having claims, (not to mention vfa counters those 2 roles pretty hard)
Doom can also just hail-mary and execute 3 Coven via alignment alone. if you are proficient at scumreading...
@@somerandomonebut that isn’t exactly in the nature of a neutral *evil* role now is it?
@@GoodlyData86596 Neutral evils are exactly that: neutral. They don't care how they win, they just want to win. Doomsayer follows this because they can win by guessing all roles in one faction.
Take another example: Pirate. They don't care who they kill, they just want to kill 2 people and then leave town.
@@ChargedBonsai98 the only reason they have neutral in their names is because they **can** be neutral and care about nobody else as long as they achieve their victory condition, but that’s not what happens, when have you seen an exe secretly side with a confirmed townie to get an easier win via lynching a coven they duped into revealing their alignment. Or a jester that doesn’t try their hardest to make sure they don’t kill non townies.
@@GoodlyData86596 Actually they function more as Neutral CHAOS roles now
The way I see it, VFR is balanced by the fact that town will usually only do it if they don't have any leads.
Agreed with that. Unless there are leads, VFR is fine to do.
@@SirenPandaSabojester benefits
@@1mol831 I mentioned that in my big comment about them :)
To be honest, I don't really care if Town has leads. As soon as the day starts and I've finished noting down all the immediate TI claims, I'm grabbing everyone else's claims and pushing VFA early, even if the voting phase hasn't started yet. If the Sheriff found 8 sus or the Tracker said 14 wasn't where they said they were, that's cool, let 'em claim and leave 'em til Trial 3. Now, 9 hasn't claimed yet, what're they?
Still I know this can will claim early without being asked so players skip me and possibly distract from a lead if I’m evil
VFR is a way to obtain information in a game about lying.
I am very pro VFR. Even in beginner lobbies, newer players will quickly learn the strat and improve that much faster.
Not using it as a strategy as town deliberately handicaps you. Even if someone is voted up, lynched and turns out to be innocent, that still gives you information on potential fake-claimers who might've found them sus, tracked them falsely, etc.
You should always use the tools you are given. And yes, in a game with Doomsayers and Ritualists, it can be risky to claim a non-TI role (even if you're ambiguous), but the information is still worth it.
There is no reason to make the game easier for evils if you're town. Your only advantage is numbers, unless an All/Any lobby was super stacked against you.
VFA is the future.
A question I have for the dev is how long have stats been tracked in tos 1, and are they being tracked currently in tos 2
VFA has been working just fine for me. Sometimes I've even seen people claim within alignment to bait Ritualist (i.e. claim Bodyguard as Cleric and vice versa).
Question for devs: Is there any chance we could get Cursed Soul as a regular role in All Any? Or would it make everything way too chaotic?
Love this question
I actually really like VFR because it gives agency to ALL players even if their role isn't investigative. For example Clerics can help figure out who's evil just by paying attention to chat. It also gives investigatives more information to help them find leads in the first place.
I like that it also forces Evils to engage with the town discussion in some fashion. By forcing role claims early they have to work to keep their mask up and continue their persona, instead of just playing passively and sighing in defeat when an invest finds them.
I feel like players who are against VFR are just bad at playing evils, and don't like that it makes them actually think and lie on the fly. This is a social deduction game after all, you should have to put a little effort into lying.
I'm kinda bad at claiming as evil but i think VFR's just fine
Worst thing was when I was a veteran leading a vfa and then the second person we voted said vfa bs I’m not going to claim, inno vfa bs. And then I guilty obviously and then they decide to turn it around on me, and even after I say I’m a veteran being pushy to bait I still get guiltied. Town not participating in vfa is throwing.
All players wxcept those who are instantly killed when they reveal their role.
@@Vearru Town not participating should be normal. I would have done the same.
@@forgottenetrememberedHell as evil or townie one of my go two moves is to suggest to vote people for a claim early and give one myself.
Watching pipe makes me believe in VFA, because he changes his planned claim constantly as evil based on the situation. VFA on d2 locks evil into a couple roles instead of them being able to claim whatever makes them look best on d4.
A silent town who does not want to push for information is a town that will always lose. Town has to play aggressive so they can trap evils in corners. If you are against vfr or vfa then don't be upset when you get hung because others play with this strat. You have to shift your play style with the lobby you are in, and if you can't adapt by the seat of your pants you better learn quick.
not always, just 99.99% of the time, there is the chance that every single evil leaves n1
@@realaccount3887 I don't know what games you are playing in but that is not the case. I have never seen a game where every single evil leaves night 1, not even in tos1 did that ever happen.
@@NathenTiger sure, but there are games were no evils spawn, i think there is footage somewhere.
you should ask him why the hell hex gets necro priority when it should be the last. Hex shouldnt be punished for having their CL leave n1
Hex gets necronomicon 10th in TOS2. Later than Dreamweaver and Voodoo Master who effectively lose their powers once they get necro. I agree *some* of the spots on the list could be adjusted, but with it already being fairly low on the list, and with how strong hex bombs are in TOS2, I think it's fair where it is.
@@wispyspectre5128 does it? I remember getting necro when i shouldnt have whit what you said to me.
Just going off what the wiki says, not necessarily experience.
VFA is better IMO than VFR. I know that you said they fall under the same category, but what I like about VFA is that it gives evils a little bit of wiggle room while still accomplishing the major goal of VFR; getting claims and info in a situation where TI's don't have leads. This subtle change in meta is pretty obviously why Doomsayer and Ritualist was created and I personally think it works out just fine. The only problem is that TS is too wide-reaching of a sub-alignment to be used in a VFA. TS could either mean you are amne and couldn't do anything night 1, you were tavern keeper and roleblocked someone n1, or you're retri and can't use anyone night 1 and all of them are so different that TS claims are very hollow and weak.
I would argue that TS is fine for VFA early on because in ToS2 there's a general assumption that TS roles can't act N1 or whatever they did N1 wasn't particularly important. Retri, Admirer, and Amnesiac all need to wait a day before using their ability. Tavern Keeper is the only exception, but the chances of you finding someone N1 who A: can kill, and B: can be roleblocked is pretty low outside of All Any, to the point where in more structured modes it's probably better to just not roleblock anyone at all N1 while you wait for TIs to get leads.
This falls apart after early game, granted, but by that point TS claims should be specifying their roles in chat anyways, because some of them will have info (Admirer proposal results, Retri using a dead TI, Amne remembering a role and using it, etc.)
It would have been stupid as hell in ToS1 with Mayor and Trans included in TS, though.
Whaat is vfa
Question for devs: How did you come up with coroner? Will it ever be buffed in future? Because currently, coroner is just a weaker invest who can't use their ability until someone gets killed.
Questions for dev:
What message will you give to the pirate in tos2 when they are attacked by famine on the night they complete their win condition?
Right now it shows as an sk attack.
ruclips.net/video/FEIaljLjx8Y/видео.html
Question for the dev: Why did All Any originally only have 1 Apocalypse role at max?
Not a dev, but Apoc tends to be very strong (stronger than Coven in firepower) and is very difficult to deal with for town as they cause a lot of damage or threatened damage and the fact that Town has already have to deal with a very strong Coven.
Here's a question
Will rampage no longer kill your fellow ww/sk friend?
THIS
Question for the developer, I never see vampires in a ToS 2 game that isn't Draculas Palace, which basically means never with how many people actually play the mode from my experience. Will Vampires get a larger debut in the future? And if so, I would assume Vampire Hunters would come too right?
Only in Draculas Palace for now… VH doesn’t exist anymore. I’m not 100% through the video so I hope Ada doesn’t say something like “don’t answer the ??s for devs if you’re not one” lol if so sorry:(
Ahhh I see now where you were going… I miss vamps possibility to spawn too. I shall like your comment
Question to the dev (and tying this video into the next one): Do the devs feel that VFR or VFA should be a viable strategy, even if not a foolproof one? The new roles (Doom, rit, new invest) do make VFR less powerful, but given the lack of more drastic nerfs, it seems the devs are ok with it as a strategy.
Ive been literally in pain because of ToS2 townies. Ive seen it all, multiple times. "Ti dont claim because it only helps evils", tps dont go on revealed townies because "its unfun", Dont reveal role in VFA cause its "boring", People on stand saying "not posting will i already claimed", day 2 with no leads prosecuting or deputy shooting any random person at start of day/trial.
It honestly has been killing quite a bit of my enjoyment how badly some people just want to throw. I dont mind people misjudging a will, getting onto wrong leads etc. but ive seen so many townies throw already in tos2 "because they dont feel to play to win" and just making town lose cause they feel like it. Its been worse than with mafia in ToS1, at least in the games ive played.
i was put on trial as a LO who saw a dead visit and the Ret refused to confirm they did in fact use that body. i got lynched and we lost. and ofc when you call players out for throwing they say things like "screw you"
what you're saying is correct but the thing is since there is no punishment or any major loss for losing games people just do some strategies that are just funny or they were trying to make some interesting play and it didn't work but when comparing this game to tos1 you should remember that tos1 has been out for more than 7 years now and the main player base who regularly played the game even until now probably gotten over this stuff and are just playing to win games .I'm sure with enough time this problem will either be gone out of the player base or there will be a ranked game mode where players like you who want to play for the actual competition can do that.
A TI claim 4 days in with little to no info makes me wanna pull my hair out.
I hope that game throwers actually get investigated warned and then even banned if they continue. I’ve reported a few players, but I don’t report unless it is just guaranteed bad game play, and not just bad logic or being convinced by evils. Typically it’ll be town killing and town power roles that do this the most, but any role can throw.
I as tp don't go on revealed townies that often just because i feel like they won't die that early, and would rather be on random people (especially as bg) since it'll eventually kill an unsuspecting evil.
i got into a spat with someone in game the other day not just because of vfr but also because he didnt want to post information as TI until he found an evil because "otherwise he would be targeted by evils"
truth of the matter is, i think it just comes down to the fact that there are a lot of new players that are just learning the ropes. they feel like it's a toxic strategy and just hate it on principle of being the meta; without understanding /why/ its meta.
To be a bit crass, it's the shitter mentality that in a game about lying, they shouldn't be forced to lie nor should they have to be good at it.
VFR makes people who are bad at lying upset, because it forces them into something they're bad at, namely lying.
Of course they think it's toxic and unfun, they keep losing despite wanting to win and they would rather blame the people forcing them into an uncomfortable position than actually getting good at the game.
The part and notion where forcing people to claim is somehow unfair, unfun or unsportsmanlike are just mental acrobatics done by people who want to deflect the issue off of themselves and their lack of skill at adaptation, improvisation and lying and instead put the blame on everyone else.
I feel like a lot of people (not everyone) who are against VFR are the same people who love Follow the Cop(sheriff) setups(Only the cop claims, town no lynches until they find a guilty, and doc is always on the cop). That's an even less enjoyable way of doing things imo.
But ultimately it comes down to either town players not understanding the fundamentals of the game, or evils just being annoyed by it. EXTRA FUN when you have TIs that never speak up because "I don't want evils to kill me", because sheriffs think their win condition is to survive, as opposed to having all evils be eliminated.
VFR should be initially repurposed to VFA, at least early game. However, VFA/VFR is too valuable of a strategy for town to simply discard it.
I honestly hate the "but ritualist/doomsayer" counterargument so much, honestly.
"But if I tell people that I'm X role, they'll rit/doom me for it!"
How is this any different than ToS 1, where you'd be claiming doctor and being killed by mafia for it so you'd stop blocking their kills? "But they're unblockable so I'm guaranteed to die!" Odds are the TP weren't on you anyways, so? Hot take, I actually believe that Ritualist should still be able to guess TI roles, because TI is a common fake claim and I think it'd be interesting for them to believe a TI, be revealed as ritualist when they get it wrong, and then either throw the fake TI under the bus or try to deflect to someone else to try to take town down with them. (Doom not being allowed to guess them is still fair since there's no punishment for failure and they could kill three TIs on night two if they got lucky.)
VFR still benefits town, full stop. Ritualist/Doomsayer are not the counterarguments people think they are.
If someone refuses to give a role, that's suspicious. Why wouldn't it be voted? Why shouldn't people get claims? Town is a faction that doesn't have night chat, and *generally* (not always) has weaker alternatives to other factions' roles (Invest isn't as powerful as Consig in ToS1, for example.) Town needs to work together - and aggressively - to win, or they lose by default. There is no room for counterarguments here - a passive town is a dead town. There's ZERO reason NOT to vote for role when there's no leads and no one is claiming. It's the only tool town has in it's belt at times like that (no, "sit on your butt and wait to lose" is not a "tool," it's gamethrowing) - even if all they're doing is catching someone in a lie because they were seen visiting by two people, but claim a non-visiting role.
They got rid of TI guessing because it made it far too easy for Ritualist to correctly guess every night with only a small chance of hitting an NK/NE. Also it made TI unable to post.
It was a needed nerf just to heavily reduce coven's killing power and to let TI actually play the game.
For Doomsayer it was the same reason of doom's going off as early as night 2 and wiping out a 33%+ of the town. With TI off the menu Doomsayer have to either wait for enough town to reveal or gamble on guessing on a mix of town and coven.
It wasn't uncommon in Beta videos to see 5+ players die night 2 from just coven with Ritualist and Doomsayer...Then for it to happen again N3 if there was a 2nd Doomsayer. So many games ended before the majority of the players could do anything.
TLDR: TI guessing made games end way too fast and made TI effectively unplayable.
@@Warcrafter4 I know why they got rid of it, but it never made TI's "unable to post." Ritualist was, in most scenarios. no different than any other (Non-Town) Killing role in eliminating TIs so they couldn't get found out faster.
It's not the ritualist's fault that gamethrowing TI were like "oh noes if I personally die then the game sucks, so the only option is to hide my results so all of town loses instead of JUST me!" TIs are supposed to claim early and draw attacks so the TKs can clutch it out later with the info the TIs obtained, full stop, no excuses, past present and future, in both ToS1 and ToS2.
I do agree on Doom, though, the near-guaranteed multikill is indeed a bit much for N2. But Ritualist? I truly, legitimately, think it was not a problem. Hell, an extra ritualist kill even confirmed an extra Coven voter to watch out for at voting time, which is info Town can use.
A question for the dev, What are you thoughts on other variations of Mafia/ToS and the mechanical differences they use? There's a version in the SC2 arcade where the transporter (Called the bus driver) is able to kill people (run them over) if they redirect a killing role into visiting themself.
isn't there an achievement for getting mafioso to kill themselves?
@@ILiekFishes It's for making anyone attack themself, but in the SC2 version, the bus driver is the one who kills the attacker, they don't kill themself.
A question for the devs huh? How about: What is the most interesting compromise with roles you had to make. An example of what I mean is with Trickster, where a trickster’s reflect had to go through all other town protective guards to prevent an infinite reflect loop.
"I''m sorry that you have to reveal early as mayor"
Gigachad players fake-claiming as a tpow:
Question for the devs: What inspired you to make the apocalypse faction in TOS 2?
Not a dev here, but I guess they got some inspiration from the PB in ToS1.
@@airmanon7213 Yeah, I was meaning what inspired them to start with the four horsemen type thing
I prefer VFA a lot. Its a lot safer, helpful, plus it also gives evils way more wiggle room
the big issue is that VFA and VFR both rely on the capability of roles and a person's expectation of how a role should be played. Coroner, for instance, became a "dc on start" role because of how useless it was (sometimes spending multiple day/night cycles unable to even start doing anything as a TI, especially in all/any lobbies) leaving it little ability to prove itself and being the TI role least likely to be watched/protected by the rest of the town once revealed. The result of this is that vfa/vfr is more or less instant death for coroners. From my own experience:
1. I've been lynched on claiming for it being an evil claim
2. I've been lynched for waiting until I was on the stand solely because of vfa/vfr
3. I've been lynched for "not being a real coroner" and having no info when all the dead roles were killed by someone we outed fairly quickly after
4. I've been lynched for *finding an actual evil* the town decided to not 1f1 after for some reason
5. I've been shot by a vigi because the psychic had me on their list of evils N3 when I'd outed myself as coroner D2 (the vigi was actually happy they hit a coroner and found my annoyance hilarious)
6. I've seen an actual coroner with a genuine will lynched by vfr/vfa because "when are coroner claims ever legit?"
I think that last one is pretty damning: poor balance and vfr/vfa has made at least one role so unfun to play that some people will lynch the claim outright because *nobody* who actually got the role prior to the coroner tweaks dc D1 and sometimes entire lobbies will find the claim immediately lynchworthy with no other justification.
I propose a new strategy called KFC (kill for claim), we threaten to end a player's existence in any way seen fit (deputy, prosecutor, lynch) if they do not claim a role or alignment
This is totally a new strategy and is definetely not a joke that I am squeezing dry
I’ll disagree with this slightly because of afk players. It’s better to hang someone than to kill a deputy or pros because someone making a chicken sandwich as they are playing and doesn’t know they are being questioned
A question for the dev: What vision did you have in mind when trying to figure out how to make Town of Salem 2 different and unique from Town of Salem 1? Were there anything in the first game you disliked so much you made it a mission to get rid of it in the 2nd game?
Kingmakers were completely removed in ToS2. Also, roles that used to suck now suck less (enchanter so much better than framer kek) Also, there's a LOT less unique roles. Multiple WW's, multiple vets... oh joy!
@@roadtrain_ Ik I’m having such a hard time cc’ing WW now! So tough!
question for dev:
in tos 1 mayor made sence as the only role that can be insta comfirmed, in tos 2 we got 5, why did you add so many and possibly nerf them?
I hate that asking people for a role in a game where you have to find out peoples roles is considered a controversal "strategy"
Question for the dev: after the early access ends and when the game get's into the position that the team would like in terms of balance changes or bugfixes, do you plan to continue updating the game with new features(new game mode's, new roles, etc)?
How are the Steam achievements going to work compaired to TOS1?
For the dev: Was it a unanimous vote for mafia to go away in ToS1? Was there a time where mafia would be in the game?
Another great video as always, Adagia! The one thing I'd add is that there is some implicit RNG regarding what # you spawn in as. It's unlikely a VFR makes it all the way to 15, for example, so a cov lower in the order will have more time to devise a fake claim or potentially avoid questioning altogether.
pseudo RNG
Question for the dev: Were there any cut roles from TOS1 that made it into TOS2? Also big fan of what you’ve guys done so far :)
Yes! not a dev, but there was a planned alignment called "government" that contained mayor, jailor, and a new role called town crier. Deputy was also planned.
@@JPEG_cat Bruh Crier from SC2 mafia?
@@JPEG_cat These weren't planned for TOS1, they were just in SC2 mafia
@@curtising yes. because they were originally planned to be part of tos. notice how i didn't mention judge or coroner, because those were never planned to be in tos1.
@@forgottenetremembered yes. because they were originally planned to be part of tos. notice how i didn't mention judge or coroner, because those were never planned to be in tos1.
Question for the devs: what's the future of TiS, given that it feels like a lost cause?
I have 1 strategy that has a high success rate for a towner. That is claiming vet or acting like a vet D1 then outright claim it before people push you, then only posting real role info to confirm/more likely townies by whispers. The new wildling could give it a bit of a problem but as long as the strategy isn't widely known, it's a braindead way of significantly increase the chance of winning
As only a watcher of ToS, VFR fulfills an important part of any game plan for Town. I mean...it does kind of fit the historical context of the game (as it is named after the Town where the infamous witch-trials/hunt happened) and going for VFR is important as it is in a way Towns Day power which if you aren't using it to at least gather info then whats the point?
Whenever you look at it, how does town gather information if there ISN'T investigatives? Would only take a VM and DW to run amok of such a town. The VFR also makes it so evils have to act and think quickly to hide themselves. Fitting. Without it, they get basically free wins as if the only reason you should EVER vote someone up is to hang them then...what was the point of the "what do you say in your defence" part of the trial? It is a social deduction game and I feel part of this comes from the other now famous one of Among Us which doesn't have that aspect...and is purely based on the killer getting caught out, and VFR in ToS can feel like they are getting random voted for no reason despite the fact is that the reason is obvious:
There isn't any leads to go on, so we will find leads. If you don't want VFR to happen as coven, you need to give the town leads that they will follow to take heat off of your members, for the solos this isn't as easy but they are also fairly comfy in not needing to rely on team-mates talking to them and co-ordinating. They themselves don't need strong claims, just enough to get heat off while Coven needs to make sure any multi-layered lie to cover many members is kept air-tight and not blown open by one hiccup.
Welcome to the Social Deduction game, where part of the game isn't just clicking that nice shiny "kill" button you have but also having to play the group. Part of the game is deception and making people think you are what you aren't, that is the whole point...not getting CL or HM and getting those kills or sick hex bomb!
Ether take part in the Social part or be deducted from the game!
To be honest vfr just makes stuff harder for evils, which are difficult for people to play. Any experienced player will be able to deal with vfr. This whole debate kinda just feels like people whining that they can’t win as evils. It’s a skill check for the lobby as well. The more info the town has, the better they can make decisions. There are very few cases where it can even be argued to be “bad” (like making a tpow come out or a mayor reveal)
heres a question
how was the idea of tos formed and what made them want to make it?
I have a question for the programmer. Will mafia ever be placed into ToS 2? I know only coven exists or the Neutrals but im wondering about mafia. If they are not, will some mafia roles be converted to coven? Thanks. I enjoy ToS. I look forward to ToS 2!
ToS 2 is out in early access on Steam, a lotta the Mafia Roles got converted to be coven roles now, so there wouldnt really be a point in adding ToS 1 mafia,.
I honestly never see any actual suggestion to replace VFR. It's just "We shouldn't do it!" but then, would you rather town just twiddles their thumbs waiting around for people to just claim naturally? Passive towns are what evils want, aggressive towns demanding people claim roles and searching for as much information is how the game is played. It'd be like saying, "Why do we always go after the people in psychic wills? That psychic could be wrong, it's rude to just trust the psychic is right and demand those three people claim, we should just wait for them to die or claim naturally in a few days after more townies have died to confirm if that psychic had worthwhile information!"
Question first the dev: what was the main reason for reworking tos1 roles, investigator, Veteran, Retributionist and Mayor, etc
Bonus question: Will medium ever make a return. For me medium was a role where'd you sit in dead chat for because you could influence the game in some way, instead of just talking to other deads.
To the devs will u include any cool upcoming events that grant customization options apon completing them. Like making a Draculas castle game mode where if u win as a vamp u get tokens to buy a cool vampire skin with
this is a GREAT VIDEO, I am not able to explain why VFR works but you just put it into words incredibly easily. That is pretty hard to do, and this video earns my like
It seems that vfr is the best strategy for town it does seemingly “ruin” the not knowing. But if the devs didn’t want it they would make it so you couldn’t.
By the way, whats the issue with just having everyone claim d2, and lynching non claimers?
Honestly i like vfr not only as town (for the reasons explained in the video), but also as evil.
I like it as evil because it makes me think quicker, its training myself into reacting to stuff faster while still being efficient (in this context, having a good claim)
I wouldn't mind switching to a different strat around the same power level (or higher) however. There's other ways to improve
Question for the dev: what was your biggest programming challenge while making ToS 1 and ToS 2?
Vote for Role/Alignment is a necessity in any Social Deduction games; they serve as the "Deduction" Part of the Social Deduction genre with Scum Reading being the "Social" part. It should be said that it's a team effort to win against another team, by refusing to do VFA because you don't want to, you are actively hindering your own team (be it town or any evil faction) chance of success
TIs are great and all but there's always a decent chance for the TIs to run into dead ends; without VFR/A, the town gets weaker because they have no information to go about and the TIs can't narrow their search down to help the town in the long run
Here's how having no info by disallowing VFR can affect each town alignment/role:
- TKs such as Trickster, Vigis and Deputy will have no info on who to shoot/target, or worse, accidentally kill an innocent player because of misinformation by any evil
- Any TP may end up protecting evil by random chance instead of TPow, other TPs or (by a small chance) a Trickster who found any evil killing role
- TavKeep may end up accidentally Roleblock TPs or Jailor, or TKs executing an evil instead of any evil
- TPows such as Jailor, Prosecutor, and Monarch might do something that can be advantageous to the evils (exe/lynch an inno or knight an evil)
- TIs would be randomly searching a big list instead of searching a handful of players who can be evil
VFR/A evens out the playing field against the evil roles and evil roles should know how to turn VFR/A in to their favor since there can be times VFR/A can actually save your team even as evil
Even in games like Among Us they have their own VFR system, Vote for Destination; you claim were you went and who you encountered and stayed with and without that type of VFR; Imposters can win most of the time
That's my opinion in VFR/A after playing the game for a decent amount of time; the explanation can be rough but to sum it all up
TL;DR
VFR/A evens the playing field, it's a necessity for any social deduction game (even Among Us) and refusing to do it when it's necessary can weaken your team's strength overall
''Claim or hang is really bad'' no it isn't, what's bad is towns who either can't defend themselves properly on stand, after making suspicious votes/slow to claim (quick to give up or have useless info/confusing wills that sometimes are conflicting/misleading) OR in some case they are mislynched/pushed by another evils, so there is nothing wrong with the whole idea of VFR/VFA, just players not playing the game properly, your goal is to convince town to not lynch you and if you're doing a bad job at it (if you aren't evil) then clearly it's on you not the town or the way the game works. What I'm referring to of course is only applying to full stacked lobbies games where players knows what they're doing and not a lobby of new players.
I'm mostly pro VFR, but with the introduction of rit and doomsayer I'm on the Vote For Alignment bandwagon now. At least for the early game when we aren't sure if there are any doomsayers or ritualists.
VFR is better for when it gets later in the game and more coven are revealed, or a baker/pb/sc transforms.
I just realized your pupils are hearts! 💕
Town is the uninformed majority? I raise you 5 Town, 4 coven 4 neutral apocalypse 3 arsonist all any game.
And question for the dev. Is shroud likely to stay the same or get any changes? Personally right now it just feels like worse serial killer.
Question for devs: what are your future plans for the Coroner role? Illusionist?
Coro got buffed! in games with heavy evil deaths early on it's still painfully passive, but it at least has the role-distinguishing potential to stop people resigning to baiting Conjuror instead.
i do like Coroner unironically now. i guess i like keeping a longer will?
I think a lot of townies don’t like claiming since they don’t want to die at night, but while dying early sucks, most townies should see themselves as expendable. ie. Town having info and voting an evil is more important than you living. If you’re that important you’ll have town protection and if not you shouldn’t be trying too hard to live.
All these are reasons to claim in VFRs and post if you’re TI
VFA is so much better than VFR could ever be, it doesnt expose your actual role to evils who will then have to think if you are worth killing and evils can choose from more roles to fakeclaim when it comes to an actual rolecall. So far I have not seen many players complain about VFA, which should prove that people (even if not liking it) understand its purpose.