Mr. Tigerstar, I’m very sorry to interrupt but this is just an apology comment from me to you. I will quit asking you to change some video titles for the rest of my life. It’s just my mind keeps telling me to do that whenever you upload a new video. Next time, I will not listen to my mind and I’ll ignore asking you to change previous video titles, I promise. I really love your videos, they’re so cool. You are one of the best mapping channels of all time. I’ll still comment on some of your videos it's just not ones relating to video titles. I’m saying this one more time and I’m being honest and respectful, I will never ask you to change your video titles ever again. And for the people who replied to my comment on last week’s video, I’m very sorry too.
There is a massive problem with this question, the civilian administration of Tunisia was always Tunisian. While the Resident General could dictate the government from above, it wasn't really France administering it. As such, who controlled Tunisia was always a question of who had the bigger army to tell the Bey what to do. Technically speaking the Vichy model of government probably never collapsed, as far as Moncef Bey had any real control in an active war zone, he was still acting as the real civilian administrative authority, not the Italian North African colony. So if we wanna ask, who owned Tunisia, the answer is "who replaced the Resident General", as the answer is no one, Jean-Pierre Esteva remained the technical leader of the colony. So in de jure terms, Tunisia was probably still a French colony under Estava who followed Petain, a person representing no government anymore(so maybe a rogue French colony???), it was never annexed on any level by the Italians, in practical terms, it was under occupation of the German-lead Axis forces.
This is a great comment, I honestly think it's more likely that the formal arrangements, as in the how the French government had protectorate status over the Regency or Tunis, wasn't changed because they probably didn't even bother. The big issue with many historians is not being able to accept the idea that they simply don't have enough sources to make clear conclusions. Also has anyone attempted to contact Tunisian historians, instead of looking through WW2 based histories.
Fascinating! Had no idea France kept so much of the native administration there. Another way to look at it with the de facto situation is assessing Hans-Jurgen von Arnem's actions as commander in chief of the Afrika Korps (redesignated Fifth Panzer Army) after Rommel was relieved. After the war he was accused of pressing the local Jewish population into forced labor - at first glance it seems he kind of did what he wanted without having to go through any layer of bureaucracy. So after Case Anton, I bet the Italian and German forces looked at the administration already in place, meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we don't have time to change things, and just did or took whatever they needed, with the implied threat that any interference would meet with the same result as the Vichy government back in Europe. Would be cool if someone with the linguistic knowledge could dive into any primary sources. Maybe Messe's book "How the War in Africa Ended"?
Correct. Tunisia and Morocco were self-governing PROTECTORATES. But the coastal part of Algeria, was part of France. It was not a protectorate like Morocco, or a colony like Cameroon; it was France, which explains its brutal independence war.
The oldest brother of my grandpa served in the Italian army under Rommel in the african campaign and he came back from Tunisia. He used to tell a story where he hit a palm tree with a cannon so they gave him 2 free days. Kinda pointless because they were in the middle of the desert
Fun fact: in the italian wikipedia page for the italian invasion of France is stated that Hitler himself gave his approval to hand over tunisia to Italy. However, Mussolini immediately changed idea on the harsh conditions that he wanted to impose to France and didn't continued with any claim on vichy territories. The reasons on why he changed idea so abruptly are kinda still debated. A book from Denis Mack Smith is cited as one of the sources.
According to Ciano's diaries (fascist Italy's foreign minister), the plan to push for the occupation of French territories was scrapped after the disappointing performance of the Italian Army on the Alps during the last days of the French campaign. Basically the idea was to not upset the Germans by making the armistice negotiation with the new French government more difficult. The question would have been brought back if an actual peace conference ever took place.
@@OrsoBart7734So, in other words, although Mussolini gave a big speech about "needing only a couple hundred men to die in order to sit at the negotiation table ," he understood that his lacklustre performance would only make Vichy more bitter if he acted all high and mighty and demanded too much.
Frank nicosia in “Nazi Germany and the Arab World” contradicts this, Hitler never gave permission and resisted the idea of handing Vichy territories to Italy
Of course the Italians themselves would claim that Italy could have taken more territory but didn't out of the kindness of Mussolini's heart. In reality this makes no sense, the real reason is that Italy's performance against France was so terrible that massive annexations couldn't be justified.
I'm a Tunisian viewer and our official History says that the Bey of Tunis ruled the country even during the colonization. France couldn't do whatever it wanted (unlike in Algeria) and they had to make the Bey sign documents whenever they wanted to introduce changes. So the consensus is that the Bey of Tunis was in charge during Vichy France government years (a puppet of a puppet yes) but he was the only one with true political legitimacy here. We have books written in Arabic with detailed events and references, but you have to ask Tunisian Historians for that. It's funny how you looked into German/Italian/French sources but didn't even consider to look at our sources... I wonder why is that!
Well. Probably because he doesn't speak Arabic. Which we cannot blame him for. And since translations of arabic scholars (appart from the most famous ones) in western languages are scarce (they often exist in French, rarely in English), it's pretty hard, if you don't speak Arabic, and worse if you don't even speak French, to have an accurate view of North African scientific litterature. Which is a shame, of course. As for the political system in Tunisia, all scholars in the world, to my knowledge, agree that Tunisia was indeed a Protectorate in which a local administration continued to exist, although the French exerced ultimate power on major decisions. The Bey had indeed real, although limited, power.
..... Jesus Christ is the only hope in this world no other gods will lead you to heaven There is no security or hope with out Jesus Christ in this world come and repent of all sins today Today is the day of salvation come to the loving savior Today repent and do not go to hell Come to Jesus Christ today Jesus Christ is only way to heaven Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today Holy Spirit Can give you peace guidance and purpose and the Lord will John 3:16-21 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Mark 1.15 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Jesus
في عمروا ما كان فما حاجة اسمها "تونس الإيطالية" برشا فينا في تونس كي تبدا حاجة قديمة يقولوا "اا من عهد الألمان" ولا "اا من عهد الفرنسسين" أما في عمري ما سمعت بواحد قال "من عهد الطلاين" حتى ماما تحكيلي ديما على كيفاش والديها وعمومتها قبل تعاملوا مع الجنود لألمان مش الطليان. تحكي راو جدي حكى على كيفاه سرقولهم مرة نعجة ولكل.
@@Someoneprobably101A7na l zouz “someone” ou twensa. Inti “probably” someone, ama ena someone berrasmi. Ena probably chill guy. Ama inti chill guy berrasmi
I'm a subscriber from Tunisia and Thank you for this video! There's something else you didn't mention, Tunisia was technically a kingdom and the Tunisian monarchs remained as nominal rulers/governors during the French rule, Even during the Axis invasion and occupation the monarchy stayed and the Tunisian monarch, aka the Bey, declared neutrality during the war.
@@ryderninja1844 In the international scene I'd say most definitely, but locally, the administration was not controlled by any other countries. It was Tunisian. Some people seem to forget that Tunisia was a protectorate, not a colony. Which meant that local laws applied and the citizens were subject to Tunisian law. Although France could at anytime overturn a rule or law. They wouldn't do it because it's legitimacy in Tunisia was reinforced by the Monarchy. If they lost the support they would most probably lose the protectorate.
Do you know Jesus Christ can set you free from sins and save you from hell today Jesus Christ is the only hope in this world no other gods will lead you to heaven There is no security or hope with out Jesus Christ in this world come and repent of all sins today Today is the day of salvation come to the loving savior Today repent and do not go to hell Come to Jesus Christ today Jesus Christ is only way to heaven Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today Romans 6.23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. John 3:16-21 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Mark 1.15 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Jesus
It has just been removed (i wasn't fast enough, someone beat me to it) Update: the previous change was undone, i've currently opened a discussion on the wikipedia talk page, if everything goes alright, the reference is going to get removed in a couple hours at maximum Please, DO NOT edit the wikipedia page if you do not know what you're doing, contrary to popular belief, one cannot just change something on wikipedia and expect it to stay, the change needs to be well supported.
Ok italian here and this is my vision: To fully understand the situation in Tunisia during World War II, we must first examine the political and military context of Italy in 1942. Italy’s autonomous military campaigns-including those in Greece, the French Alps, East Africa, and Egypt-had all ended in failure. These defeats not only eroded the trust Germany had in the Italian armed forces but also shattered the illusion of an invincible Italy among its citizens. By 1942, the war efforts of Germany and Italy had effectively merged. Italian units often found themselves taking orders from German commanders, as Germany increasingly dictated the course of the war. This dynamic became even more pronounced following the armistice of 8 September 1943, with the implementation of Operation Achse and the establishment of the Italian Social Republic (RSI). Many Italian units, such as the 10th MAS, aligned themselves with Germany, later reorganizing under the RSI's National Republican Guard. Returning to the central issue of Tunisia: during my education in Italy, both in school and university, it was often taught that all Axis-conquered territories in North Africa were considered Italian. This narrative included not only the territories seized up to El Alamein in Egypt but also the portion of Tunisia that came under Axis control following the fall of Vichy France. However, in reality, the Germans held the commanding authority in Tunisia, as they did in most of the Italian occupied zone in late 1942 So Italian Tunisia was ever a thing? Well... Kind of? At least de Jure; the reality was a German Military occupation as most of the map tell
They were probably too busy to bother deciding in the first place. They'd sort it out later and then everyone would agree that it retroactively counted in the beforetimes. But later didn't happen so the beforetimes went unaccounted-for.
As a tunisian, my grandparents always gives my cousins and I stories about the french rule and german rule too, but NEVER heard italian rule or soldiers from him
So according to Wikipedia (I know, I know...) both in English and french the french governor of Tunisia at the time was a man called Jean-Pierre Esteva. It is said that he stayed in office due to orders from Petain and Laval until May 1943. So if this is true Tunisia was under Vichy administration to the end of the African campaign. They name a french book about french persons in Tunisia 1930-1950 as a source.
This is interesting. This would mean that even though Case Anton abolished Vichy France, Tunisia was still under the old management. This would support the argument Emperor Tigerstar has made in the video, that the post-Anton occupation was a hastly and diffuse thing which could be best described as "Axis-occupied" rather than German or Italian occupation.
@@Minuku42 Case Anton did not abolish Vichy France, this whole thing is based on this misconception in the Anglo world on french history and it's kinda hilarious.
Then in truth, Case Anton has the Axis neighbors militarily occupy the Vichy state and later transferred their rump government into southern Germany later. For Tunisia, this meant that business in the intruded colony, while usual, has been absorbed into an encroaching warzone
I'm not sure about the archives, but as a Tunisian who has heard stories from older generations who lived through that time, the general impression was that the Germans were the ones in charge. Many Tunisians (though not all) seemed to support them and viewed them as liberators from French occupation. There's a well-known Tunisian TV series about that era it only depicts interactions with the Germans and the Allies (mainly the French and some British/Americans pilots) but doesn't include Italians at all. This suggests that the Italians were insignificant in that contex at least from a tunisian POV .
Exactly my grandpa told me stories about it the French were in control versus the German which Tunisians supported .italians were not in control nor got the liking of Tunisians as they look at Italians as simple farmers harvesting in north tunisia not a super power compared to Germany
The Vichy government didn't de jure cease to exist after Case Anton; it was still technically the civilian government (for whatever that was worth) of occupied France right up until the Axis armies were driven out of the country. In fact, it set up a government-in-exile in Simaringen, Germany after the fall of Paris to the Allies. Apparently, the Vichy Resident-General of Tunisia, Jean-Pierre Esteva, remained in office in Tunis itself right up until 7 May 1943, only being evacuated literally as British forces were entering the city, and only a few days before the final surrender of the last Axis forces in Africa. So, technically, it very much seems it was Vichy French right up until the end
As I understand it, Italy had colonial ambitions over Tunisia and wanted to obtain it but the French got it first, so they had to settle for Eritrea and Somalia. They would later fulfill their desire to have colonies in North Africa after acquiring Libya from the Ottomans.
The ellipsis in the italian book "Le terre nostre ritornano..." Are not weird for an italian reader, it's common to use them in titles for dramatic effect
This is quite surprising to me as i always assumed it went to italy as did corsica in case anton. Thank you for sharing this unknown truth about my country tiger star!
The little technicalities like these are amazing. I struggle to understand some of the work in my business degree but understand perfectly the mystery behind Tunisia during the waning days of the North African Campaign.
5:40 You just know the weirdest fascist larper wrote that wikipedia article saying "Many Tunisian Arabs and Berbers wanted Tunisia to unite with Italy"
The Vichy regime was still in charge. Jean-Pierre Esteva was the Resident-general of the French protectorate of Tunisia before and during the occupation. Legally Vichy still existed after Case Anton - the rest of France was occupied by German and Italian troops but from a civil legal point of view it was still under the Petain and Laval.
We studied in history that during the second world war the official syndicates and parties that were against the french colonization had contact with the nazi party in france, and they had even visited tunisia during the war. Basically this is the first time that I ever hear tunisia was considered italian during the WW2, because in the bac exams (highschool degree in Tunisia) we study that during Vichy's control there was a counselor who was in a official contact with the tunisian liberation parties, which supports the fact that tunisia was closer to being german more than italian during the war.
There are 2 known battles that took place in tunisia, one in Gasserine and other one in Merth where tunnels were dug, and basically the troops during tunisia campaign was under the german control, and italians were camped 90% in libya as it was their colony, and italians backed up the german entry in egypt against the brits, and even the brits are responsible of bombardments in tunisia in a battle called Hamem Sousse battle, in which they were chasing the german to their lines behind Merth tunnel. I can give additional information or references if anyone asks, but this is what they teach us in tunisia.
Very interesting perspective, but it's a bit confusing so far. I tagged you on Twitter with one of the biggest experts of the era, and he has genuine, detailed maps from both the Axis and Allies. I believe that could help us a lot in understanding the dilemma.
I would say it was co-occupied with the Germans more or less leading it as they had the stronger presence in that front as well as being more dominant in their relationship. I’d just make it cross German-Italian marked and call it Axis occupied.
German troops slightly outnumbered Italian troops in North Africa by the time of the campaign, and actual initial occupation was carried out by airlift by German troops before Rommels joint German-Italian army arrived
I always like videos like this because I feel like the Italian involvement in world War II is often times glossed over. I'm not sure how it's taught in other schools but going to public school here in America. We always talk about the Japanese and the Pacific Theater and also the Soviet and American advance on the Germans. Mussolini is normally glossed over
Always funny to see how much intricacies there was in North Africa specifically between german and italian commands IIRC, while Rommel officially served Germany, he reported during his time in NA to the italians but being a german leading an italian front, it gave Germany ultimately the charge of military affairs in the region
@InfoRome you know rome and italy are separate countries? Learn my geography? How about you learn your history rome didn't just evolve into Italy changing their name and flag Heck the state called Italy started on sardinia not even on the Italian peninsula Rome conquered tunisia yes Italy didn't two states one started as a city state the other an island state
If it can help, my grand parents remembered a mix of German and Italian soldiers occupying Tunisia. According to the Arabic Wikipedia, those three months, there were only fights and battles everywhere. Which means that no one really administered Tunisia at that time.
As a Tunisian i will say no one was controling or annexing Tunisia "technically" the king (bey) was the head of the state and the one which have biggest army he follow him thats all
tunisian here: the french control over the civilian tunisian government remained throughout all the time period , but it was greatly greatly limited during the german occupation( basically the germans had military control over the land for a limited time but they did not envolve in the administration) they kinda of controlled the french who controlled the civilian government, some of the french resisted some played along and some played both sides ( it was some kinda of a spy/ secret police war in the capital), no italian control was ever present in tunisia
Learned something earlier today. For some reason, between 1950 and 1960 Great Britain gave back control over Somaliland to Italy. Seems a bit odd for an Axis power to be handed conquered territory back to it after WWII. Though, I'm not sure how much control Italy had over this territory in this time period, considering it was a UN Trust Territory. Not entirely sure what that means, practically speaking.
A few of the maps shown also try to illustrate the strange condominium status of the Independent State of Croatia following the occupation by Italy and Germany.
General Giovanni Messe was the designated successor of Rommel as commander of PanzerArmee Afrika, that is to say Messe was put in charge by the OKW and the Comando Supremo of the Entire deutschesAfrikaKorps plus the Italian 1st army starting from february 1943 onwards. those forces were responsible of the southern and western front in Tunisia, facing the British 8th Army. Gen Von Arnim was put in charge of the German and Italian forces of the Eastern front in Tunisia facing the Americans.
Tunisia was under Vichy even after Case Anton (government existed) but an error is saying Rommel occupied Tunisia. He didnt; the German units air lifted there werent under his command at all and wouldnt be until February 1943 when Heeresgruppe Afrika was formed.
5:24 Malta mentioned, ill go checkout this journal from the University of Malta might be interesting. Edit: Also the title makes sense and is not cut off "Our land has returned..."
If you are looking to show it accurately in future videos, Tunisia should be shown as a protectorate of Petain’s French State until May 1943. Thereafter it was administered by the allied-aligned French High Commission in Africa (which had controlled French Morocco and Algeria since Nov. 1942), later merging with Free France in June 1943. There are a few misconceptions at play here: • Petain’s regime was not in fact dissolved in Nov. 1942. Since the armistice in May 1940, Petain’s regime had been nominally in control of all pre-war French territory (excluding Alsace-Lorraine and a few other bits) plus the overseas empire. The southern part (zone libre), based in Vichy, was unoccupied while the northern part (zone occupee) based in Paris, which remained the capital of Petain’s regime, was under German military garrison with little control from Petain’s government other than as civil servants. After Nov. 1942, the southern part was also garrisoned by the Germans (and Italians), with the zones becoming known as zone nord and sud. While Petain’s regime now had little control in either zone, it remained as the civil administration, and its foreign ministry remained in control of overseas territories that had not yet defected to the allies, including Tunisia. • This also means that places like Corsica and Nice were never annexed by Italy even after Nov. 1942, they were under Italian military occupation but remained part of Petain’s France. The only parts of France annexed by Italy were the city of Menton and a couple of mountain passes. (The same is true of the Axis occupiers in Greece, with the German and Italian military occupations remaining part of the collaborationist Hellenic State, which was similar to Petain’s French State). • Tunisia was a French protectorate rather than a colony, so the Bey of Tunis retained his own sovereignty under French protection and a resident-general. When the Germans and Italians occupied southern France in Nov. 1942, nothing changed about the administration of Tunisia, with the French resident-general retaining his position and remaining loyal to the Petain government. This remained the case when German and Italian troops occupied Tunisia later the same month, and until their surrender in May 1943, at which point the Petain-loyal resident-general evacuated. There are a couple of factors that have led to the confusion that Italy annexed Tunisia in Nov. 1942, beyond the fact that they always wanted to: • One is that German troops in the African theater were officially under the Italian high command: even though German commanders like Rommel were in control on the operational level, they and their boss Kesselring were always subordinated to the Italian Supreme Command in Rome. So Tunisia, being under Italian command from Nov. 1942, would naturally make sense to annex especially due to its large Italian population and the impending loss of Tripoli. • Another is that the Italians did exercise a level of civil authority during the occupation, reversing some of the French policies that had suppressed Italians, such as reopening Italian-language schools and allowing Italian-language newspapers to resume publishing. They also conscripted local Italians into the military to help with the defense. So it’s easy to see how one would get the impression that Italy took over the Tunisia Protectorate during this time, however they never officially deposed the French resident-general and despite forcing him to change some of his policies continued to utilize him and the French administration as a conduit to the Bey of Tunis until the surrender in May 1943.
There is some documentation in french. French administration remains in place but in fact follows the rules of Rahn (sent by Ribbentrop). The situation is similar to that in France after the invasion of the southern part of the country. In any case, tunisia was never under italian control.
I think an answer might be found in looking/thinking of it economically. Like if there are taxes being collected, who are those taxes going to? Is it a local administrator? What do they do with the money? It is reasonable to doubt they had many functional institutions while there was a war being fought in the area, but if you just think of the capital city Tunis itself, it was a city of hundreds of thousands of people, what kind of public services did the population have, like plumbing, power, and sewers, and how was it all paid for? What administration was ensuring enough food was brought into the city to feed the people when war was being fought? If you can answer questions like that, I think it will become clearer what the answer is to the question "did Italy administer Tunisia in WW2?" As another comment mentioned, Tunisia under the French was a self governing protectorate, so when it came to war and who controlled Tunisia, that self governing part probably came to the forefront when the French government who usually had control was no longer there. What normal government the Tunisians had, likely continued functioning as normal even when they didn't have a clear source of French authority, and while Axis troops occupied their territory. The Axis needed the territory for their operations, they didn't need/want the complete collapse of Tunisia as that would likely get in the way, so they likely were fine just leaving the normal Tunisian government operating as it was, as long as it didn't interfere with the Axis's operations.
Tunisia was actually enroot to become an Italian colony which is why the French took it so the Italians could not have it, that is why so many Italians where sent to it.
Vichy France was not a puppet. While yes they had to pay an insane amount in war reparations as well as have half there country occupied, they where still fully independent that said no to Germany on various occasions, namely when Germany wanted frances fleet which lead to war breaking back out and vichy France being truly crushed.
Tunisian here and all i had to do to answer this question is ask my grand father. And to him this Italian thing is bogus since the french still had their colonial regime up and running and the occupation was understood by the population to be german. Resistance operation still targeted french intrests alongside germans and italians.
Really interesting. I would agree, for future WW2 maps, to let Tunisia under the property of Vichy Government together with Morocco and Algeria, and then after Darlan's ceasefire categorizing Tunisia as Axis/German/Italian occupied by military means
Walter Rauff was the SS officer in charge of implementing the Holocaust in Italy and Italian North Africa. His mandate was extended to Tunisia after Case Anton. This is circumstantial and it could easily have been assigned to him for convenience, since he was already there. But it could make sense that if he was in charge of SS activities in other Italian territories, and he was in charge of SS activities in Tunisia, then Tunisia may have been at least nominally administered by Italy. Far from solid proof though
It's kind of interesting that Tunisia for much of its history was many times supposedly “controlled” by foreign powers, but was actually just doing its own thing
While that kept us in relative peace (minus the french occupation) it also contributed to centuries of economic mismanagement, foreign oligarchy, social decline, colonialism, and identity crises.
I think it would be more helpful if you decided to search for Tunisian documents about their own history. And get help from Tunisians online for translation. Usually occupied countries themselves are best source for these kind of issues because for them, it is extra important to document and remember who invaded them when
He just looked up the wikipedia page... your suggestion is good but even if he just researched the topic for 5 minuteson the internet he could have found pleanty of french and italian books on the topic that probably contein the answer to the question.
@@Lodov he specifically checked the sources from the page and compared them to see the most common sources that you apparently can find easily. He also then checked other works lmao did you even watch the video? If it's so easy, why don't you link a source?
@@RimmyDownunder in this case I'll have to mirror your banal accusation: Have you read my comment? or watch the video? The research in the video was poorly done, he only looked into the admittedly poor list of sources from Wikipedia, that, surprise surprise, were revealed to be poor. At minute 8:06 he also concludes with a logical fallacy. He proved that the Wikipedia’s statements weren’t backed by any source, yet he didn’t prove if Tunisia had an Italian administration or not. So the statement has just the same value of what was written on wikipedia, nothing. If he wanted to research the topic, he should have done more than what he has done. I’m not expecting academic rigor but the bare minimum. After all, it appears that this is his profession. Related to that, why should I look up sources for you? That takes time to be done properly. Read my comment. I said that in 5 minutes I found “plenty of Italian and French book that PROBABLY CONTAIN THE ANSWER” I would then need to acquire them and read them. And before you contest that, he obtained and read at least part of the poor wikipedia sourcesn. Why couldn’t he do it with better ones? Repeating provocation, have you read my comment? Or comprehended it?
Hello, your videos explaining changes of world borders made me interested and i wonder if you can make a video of the disputed borders between morocco and algeria espacially desert because i see maps of morocco controlling algerian desert and some shows most of southern morocco (sous) wasn"t been controlled
I always heard stories about how the Germans and Americans fought near my grandmother's village back in the day. Also other stories from my friend's family on how the Germans treated them with respect unlike the French and how the Americans gave them chocolates. But let me tell you something as a Tunisian. Tunisia was no else's property but our own, whether it's a colony or a protectorate it was a country shackled by occupiers who'll soon have to leave through any means. a Boiling pot ready to pour open and deliver the taste of liberation.
Baby ! Tunisians when they colonized Sicily and Malta ! 🇲🇹 they were under Tunisia rules ! Not Morocco as they claim ! This was under aghlabit dynasty ! 😮
This guy did not even bother looking up some references from the country he is making the video about. Try searching for sources coming from Tunisian historians to get the full picture.
The vichy government was never gone, what are you saying. The germans did occupy the south of the country at one point, yeah, but despite military occupation France was still led by the vichy regime, Pétain and his government were still in power of all civilian matters
My great grandfather never came home for WW2 to his family in Catania. Rumor is he met a woman and had a child in Tunisia. We found out the truth, he died of syphiliis in the late 40s.
Based on this video, are you planning to create a new version of the video about World War 2, taking into account the occupation zones of each country?
Tunisian here! A lot of brothers are suggesting digging into the Tunisian archives, and what's funny is that all the records from that period in the tunisian archive are talking about stupid things like tribal conflicts over water sources, land and cattle also some ceremonies and visits
On a similar note, I have always been confused as to why you show much of Romania as Axis-occupied after the 1944 coup? Like I thought in August 1944 Romania switched from pro-Axis to pro-Allied - but your World War 2 videos seem to show western Romania being suddenly occupied by the Axis. I'm confused as to what's going on there.
This is something I've been confused about for years and I thought I was the only one who cared about this issue 😂 Never expected to see someone make a vid about it
I can call it the 'Italian Dream,' haha. I'm Tunisian, and I've never heard of Italy administering Tunisia, not even for a single moment. Tunisia was a French-occupied territory from 1881 to 1956. During that time, there was a Beylic regime-a puppet monarchy controlled by the French administration. The Germans tried to influence the Bey and take control during World War II, but they failed.
Just to confirm, my italian historical atlas put Tunisia under Vichy control with the axis just having a bridge head. The school text I use too never mention Tunisia as part of the colonial empire or just annexed or similar
4:08 the territories controlled by Germany included Western Macedonia, and part of Central Macedonia. The rest of Central Macedonia, as well as Eastern Msceodnia, were annexed by Bulgaria. "Southern Macedonia" isn't a thing.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Sometimes I just have the weirdest gripes to talk about, huh?
Mr. Tigerstar, I’m very sorry to interrupt but this is just an apology comment from me to you. I will quit asking you to change some video titles for the rest of my life. It’s just my mind keeps telling me to do that whenever you upload a new video. Next time, I will not listen to my mind and I’ll ignore asking you to change previous video titles, I promise. I really love your videos, they’re so cool. You are one of the best mapping channels of all time. I’ll still comment on some of your videos it's just not ones relating to video titles. I’m saying this one more time and I’m being honest and respectful, I will never ask you to change your video titles ever again. And for the people who replied to my comment on last week’s video, I’m very sorry too.
Hey mister tigerstar please change the title I don't like it
The incidence of unsubstantiated Wikipedia statements is too damn high!
Answer: Justinian and Belisarius control Tunisia. End of story.
Please tear into more poorly cited Wikipedia history content! It injects pure dopamine into my reference librarian head.
>"Did Italian Tunisia exist?"
Only 146 BC bois will remember.
Carthago delenda est
And Roger II of Sicily enjoyers, of course
Cartago Delenda Est
@@bradenculver7457beat me to it
*BCE
There is a massive problem with this question, the civilian administration of Tunisia was always Tunisian. While the Resident General could dictate the government from above, it wasn't really France administering it. As such, who controlled Tunisia was always a question of who had the bigger army to tell the Bey what to do. Technically speaking the Vichy model of government probably never collapsed, as far as Moncef Bey had any real control in an active war zone, he was still acting as the real civilian administrative authority, not the Italian North African colony. So if we wanna ask, who owned Tunisia, the answer is "who replaced the Resident General", as the answer is no one, Jean-Pierre Esteva remained the technical leader of the colony. So in de jure terms, Tunisia was probably still a French colony under Estava who followed Petain, a person representing no government anymore(so maybe a rogue French colony???), it was never annexed on any level by the Italians, in practical terms, it was under occupation of the German-lead Axis forces.
That definitely reinforces the consensus then if he never gave any authorities to the Italians.
This is a great comment, I honestly think it's more likely that the formal arrangements, as in the how the French government had protectorate status over the Regency or Tunis, wasn't changed because they probably didn't even bother. The big issue with many historians is not being able to accept the idea that they simply don't have enough sources to make clear conclusions. Also has anyone attempted to contact Tunisian historians, instead of looking through WW2 based histories.
What this guy said at the end^ @@elpresidenta1945
Fascinating! Had no idea France kept so much of the native administration there.
Another way to look at it with the de facto situation is assessing Hans-Jurgen von Arnem's actions as commander in chief of the Afrika Korps (redesignated Fifth Panzer Army) after Rommel was relieved. After the war he was accused of pressing the local Jewish population into forced labor - at first glance it seems he kind of did what he wanted without having to go through any layer of bureaucracy. So after Case Anton, I bet the Italian and German forces looked at the administration already in place, meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we don't have time to change things, and just did or took whatever they needed, with the implied threat that any interference would meet with the same result as the Vichy government back in Europe. Would be cool if someone with the linguistic knowledge could dive into any primary sources. Maybe Messe's book "How the War in Africa Ended"?
Correct. Tunisia and Morocco were self-governing PROTECTORATES. But the coastal part of Algeria, was part of France. It was not a protectorate like Morocco, or a colony like Cameroon; it was France, which explains its brutal independence war.
I had never heard anything about Italy actually getting control of Tunisia in WW2, it was always brought up as just a hypothetical.
Roma empire is italy sooo
@ I mean in the context of WW2.
@@Polloamp10no it isnt
@@Hade_exeyes, the correct verb is “was”
@@mr.archivity Italy only came to be in the 19th century
The oldest brother of my grandpa served in the Italian army under Rommel in the african campaign and he came back from Tunisia. He used to tell a story where he hit a palm tree with a cannon so they gave him 2 free days. Kinda pointless because they were in the middle of the desert
What did that poor palm tree do to him?
never hit our palm trees with cannons
Was he rewarded for shooting a tree?
@@MsPaintMr No It was a reward as a "contest"
Greatest italian warhero.
They just forgot to sign the lease to the country huh
Eyyyy Stoney, great server man
There's no way I just found a stonewoeks comment with 88 likes and a single reply
@@jimbobtheA1 Yeah lol it was funny. Greetings from Thevelán!
@@ArchieGames586 Absolutely! Greetings from Faerico!
Damn didn't expect stoney hee
Fun fact: in the italian wikipedia page for the italian invasion of France is stated that Hitler himself gave his approval to hand over tunisia to Italy. However, Mussolini immediately changed idea on the harsh conditions that he wanted to impose to France and didn't continued with any claim on vichy territories. The reasons on why he changed idea so abruptly are kinda still debated. A book from Denis Mack Smith is cited as one of the sources.
What are some of the possible reasons?
According to Ciano's diaries (fascist Italy's foreign minister), the plan to push for the occupation of French territories was scrapped after the disappointing performance of the Italian Army on the Alps during the last days of the French campaign.
Basically the idea was to not upset the Germans by making the armistice negotiation with the new French government more difficult.
The question would have been brought back if an actual peace conference ever took place.
@@OrsoBart7734So, in other words, although Mussolini gave a big speech about "needing only a couple hundred men to die in order to sit at the negotiation table ," he understood that his lacklustre performance would only make Vichy more bitter if he acted all high and mighty and demanded too much.
Frank nicosia in “Nazi Germany and the Arab World” contradicts this, Hitler never gave permission and resisted the idea of handing Vichy territories to Italy
Of course the Italians themselves would claim that Italy could have taken more territory but didn't out of the kindness of Mussolini's heart. In reality this makes no sense, the real reason is that Italy's performance against France was so terrible that massive annexations couldn't be justified.
7:46 All those Ballon D'Or weren't enough, mfers gave Messi an entire German division 💀
Fr 😭
it's not actually "messi" it's "messe" :DDD he wrote it wrong.
That German-Argentinian connection is making more sense to me now.
Hilarious😂
Well, Messi IS Argentinian 😅. So, there's a possibility considering he's pretty white.... 😅
I'm a Tunisian viewer and our official History says that the Bey of Tunis ruled the country even during the colonization. France couldn't do whatever it wanted (unlike in Algeria) and they had to make the Bey sign documents whenever they wanted to introduce changes.
So the consensus is that the Bey of Tunis was in charge during Vichy France government years (a puppet of a puppet yes) but he was the only one with true political legitimacy here.
We have books written in Arabic with detailed events and references, but you have to ask Tunisian Historians for that. It's funny how you looked into German/Italian/French sources but didn't even consider to look at our sources... I wonder why is that!
Well. Probably because he doesn't speak Arabic. Which we cannot blame him for. And since translations of arabic scholars (appart from the most famous ones) in western languages are scarce (they often exist in French, rarely in English), it's pretty hard, if you don't speak Arabic, and worse if you don't even speak French, to have an accurate view of North African scientific litterature. Which is a shame, of course.
As for the political system in Tunisia, all scholars in the world, to my knowledge, agree that Tunisia was indeed a Protectorate in which a local administration continued to exist, although the French exerced ultimate power on major decisions. The Bey had indeed real, although limited, power.
Lol American and English "historians " searched always from the European angle.
.....
Jesus Christ is the only hope in this world no other gods will lead you to heaven
There is no security or hope with out Jesus Christ in this world come and repent of all sins today
Today is the day of salvation come to the loving savior Today repent and do not go to hell
Come to Jesus Christ today
Jesus Christ is only way to heaven
Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void
Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today
Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today
Holy Spirit Can give you peace guidance and purpose and the Lord will
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mark 1.15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Jesus
Bro, I'm Tunisian and we don't even know who's running the country right now, let alone a 100 years ago
we really needed your cuckish comment thank you for the contribution
في عمروا ما كان فما حاجة اسمها "تونس الإيطالية" برشا فينا في تونس كي تبدا حاجة قديمة يقولوا "اا من عهد الألمان" ولا "اا من عهد الفرنسسين" أما في عمري ما سمعت بواحد قال "من عهد الطلاين"
حتى ماما تحكيلي ديما على كيفاش والديها وعمومتها قبل تعاملوا مع الجنود لألمان مش الطليان. تحكي راو جدي حكى على كيفاه سرقولهم مرة نعجة ولكل.
Yes we know ,may be you don't know ,but all you wish is some creepy Islamist to rule it
@@Someoneprobably101A7na l zouz “someone” ou twensa. Inti “probably” someone, ama ena someone berrasmi. Ena probably chill guy. Ama inti chill guy berrasmi
lmao true
I'm a subscriber from Tunisia and Thank you for this video!
There's something else you didn't mention, Tunisia was technically a kingdom and the Tunisian monarchs remained as nominal rulers/governors during the French rule, Even during the Axis invasion and occupation the monarchy stayed and the Tunisian monarch, aka the Bey, declared neutrality during the war.
A bey isn't a king you shawarma peddler.
Albeit, a mere puppet
@@ryderninja1844 to a degree yes, but not entirely
@@ryderninja1844 In the international scene I'd say most definitely, but locally, the administration was not controlled by any other countries. It was Tunisian. Some people seem to forget that Tunisia was a protectorate, not a colony. Which meant that local laws applied and the citizens were subject to Tunisian law. Although France could at anytime overturn a rule or law. They wouldn't do it because it's legitimacy in Tunisia was reinforced by the Monarchy. If they lost the support they would most probably lose the protectorate.
Do you know Jesus Christ can set you free from sins and save you from hell today
Jesus Christ is the only hope in this world no other gods will lead you to heaven
There is no security or hope with out Jesus Christ in this world come and repent of all sins today
Today is the day of salvation come to the loving savior Today repent and do not go to hell
Come to Jesus Christ today
Jesus Christ is only way to heaven
Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void
Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today
Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today
Romans 6.23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mark 1.15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Jesus
00:20 Wasn't the governor of Gabon pro-vichy? IIRC the Battle of Gabon inloved the Free French having to invade the place.
Good catch.
Yes. The governor of the neighouring french central Africa conquered it
@@joshuafrimpong244Not neighboring, Gabon was part of Central Africa, the governor of CA basically suppressed a rebellion
this is like a court hearing where both parents (France and Italy) wanted to claim caretaker of a child (Tunisia)
Meanwhile the child is just like "You guys know I'm also an adult, right? Like, I can run my own shit just fine"
Parents hhhhh Ridiculuous!!! Tunisia has an older history than both so called "Parents"
Animal parents human child
Hopefully the wiki does remove those sources as they aren’t viable in the context of an Italian Tunisia
It has just been removed (i wasn't fast enough, someone beat me to it)
Update: the previous change was undone, i've currently opened a discussion on the wikipedia talk page, if everything goes alright, the reference is going to get removed in a couple hours at maximum
Please, DO NOT edit the wikipedia page if you do not know what you're doing, contrary to popular belief, one cannot just change something on wikipedia and expect it to stay, the change needs to be well supported.
Videos like this are what prompts people to make it happen.
@@Yuio_Quazunless it's political apparently
@@Yuio_Quaz yet the original sources were from before the occupation and were accepted anyways
@@Yuio_Quaz”well supported” is rather a want than a have
This is a good lesson on being skeptical about sources, rather than just assuming that a statement with a cited source must have a good source
This channel was a major part of my childhood and helped me learn a lot of history. Glad to see your still making videos.
Ok italian here and this is my vision:
To fully understand the situation in Tunisia during World War II, we must first examine the political and military context of Italy in 1942. Italy’s autonomous military campaigns-including those in Greece, the French Alps, East Africa, and Egypt-had all ended in failure. These defeats not only eroded the trust Germany had in the Italian armed forces but also shattered the illusion of an invincible Italy among its citizens.
By 1942, the war efforts of Germany and Italy had effectively merged. Italian units often found themselves taking orders from German commanders, as Germany increasingly dictated the course of the war. This dynamic became even more pronounced following the armistice of 8 September 1943, with the implementation of Operation Achse and the establishment of the Italian Social Republic (RSI). Many Italian units, such as the 10th MAS, aligned themselves with Germany, later reorganizing under the RSI's National Republican Guard.
Returning to the central issue of Tunisia: during my education in Italy, both in school and university, it was often taught that all Axis-conquered territories in North Africa were considered Italian. This narrative included not only the territories seized up to El Alamein in Egypt but also the portion of Tunisia that came under Axis control following the fall of Vichy France. However, in reality, the Germans held the commanding authority in Tunisia, as they did in most of the Italian occupied zone in late 1942
So Italian Tunisia was ever a thing? Well... Kind of? At least de Jure; the reality was a German Military occupation as most of the map tell
7:47 Amazing video, but there is one small mistake: He is Giovanni Messe, not Messi
ANKARA MESSI ANKARA MESSI
@@Boretheory Qué mirás, bobo ?
This was less than 100 years ago and they already forgot who it belonged to?
They were probably too busy to bother deciding in the first place. They'd sort it out later and then everyone would agree that it retroactively counted in the beforetimes. But later didn't happen so the beforetimes went unaccounted-for.
Probably because it was so brief and such a minor thing.
As a tunisian, my grandparents always gives my cousins and I stories about the french rule and german rule too, but NEVER heard italian rule or soldiers from him
So according to Wikipedia (I know, I know...) both in English and french the french governor of Tunisia at the time was a man called Jean-Pierre Esteva. It is said that he stayed in office due to orders from Petain and Laval until May 1943. So if this is true Tunisia was under Vichy administration to the end of the African campaign. They name a french book about french persons in Tunisia 1930-1950 as a source.
This is interesting. This would mean that even though Case Anton abolished Vichy France, Tunisia was still under the old management. This would support the argument Emperor Tigerstar has made in the video, that the post-Anton occupation was a hastly and diffuse thing which could be best described as "Axis-occupied" rather than German or Italian occupation.
@@Minuku42 Case Anton did not abolish Vichy France, this whole thing is based on this misconception in the Anglo world on french history and it's kinda hilarious.
@@Minuku42 Case Anton didn't end the Vichy government. It remained the de jure civilian government of France right up until Allied liberation.
Then in truth, Case Anton has the Axis neighbors militarily occupy the Vichy state and later transferred their rump government into southern Germany later.
For Tunisia, this meant that business in the intruded colony, while usual, has been absorbed into an encroaching warzone
As a tunisian , i can tell you that’s true
Maybe the Tunisian national archives will give something ? or it could also be in the french ones.
I'm not sure about the archives, but as a Tunisian who has heard stories from older generations who lived through that time, the general impression was that the Germans were the ones in charge. Many Tunisians (though not all) seemed to support them and viewed them as liberators from French occupation. There's a well-known Tunisian TV series about that era it only depicts interactions with the Germans and the Allies (mainly the French and some British/Americans pilots) but doesn't include Italians at all. This suggests that the Italians were insignificant in that contex at least from a tunisian POV .
italians came as imigrants before 1939 @@ndmb6333
Exactly my grandpa told me stories about it the French were in control versus the German which Tunisians supported .italians were not in control nor got the liking of Tunisians as they look at Italians as simple farmers harvesting in north tunisia not a super power compared to Germany
The Vichy government didn't de jure cease to exist after Case Anton; it was still technically the civilian government (for whatever that was worth) of occupied France right up until the Axis armies were driven out of the country. In fact, it set up a government-in-exile in Simaringen, Germany after the fall of Paris to the Allies. Apparently, the Vichy Resident-General of Tunisia, Jean-Pierre Esteva, remained in office in Tunis itself right up until 7 May 1943, only being evacuated literally as British forces were entering the city, and only a few days before the final surrender of the last Axis forces in Africa. So, technically, it very much seems it was Vichy French right up until the end
As I understand it, Italy had colonial ambitions over Tunisia and wanted to obtain it but the French got it first, so they had to settle for Eritrea and Somalia. They would later fulfill their desire to have colonies in North Africa after acquiring Libya from the Ottomans.
The ellipsis in the italian book "Le terre nostre ritornano..." Are not weird for an italian reader, it's common to use them in titles for dramatic effect
I am Tunisian and from what our family recalls, it was the Germans.
Great hoi4 lore video
In your map of Vichy territories at 0:24, you don't include Gabon, which was a part of the Axis
This is quite surprising to me as i always assumed it went to italy as did corsica in case anton. Thank you for sharing this unknown truth about my country tiger star!
The little technicalities like these are amazing. I struggle to understand some of the work in my business degree but understand perfectly the mystery behind Tunisia during the waning days of the North African Campaign.
4:26 "Russians take Stalino, Slash Vital Rail Lines In Drive For Mariupol". Damn, that paper was legendary.
War never changes
Hmm sounds familiar…
Great job on your source analysis!!
5:40 You just know the weirdest fascist larper wrote that wikipedia article saying "Many Tunisian Arabs and Berbers wanted Tunisia to unite with Italy"
Those Wikipedia citations are examples for why more people need to scrutinize citations
The Vichy regime was still in charge. Jean-Pierre Esteva was the Resident-general of the French protectorate of Tunisia before and during the occupation.
Legally Vichy still existed after Case Anton - the rest of France was occupied by German and Italian troops but from a civil legal point of view it was still under the Petain and Laval.
We studied in history that during the second world war the official syndicates and parties that were against the french colonization had contact with the nazi party in france, and they had even visited tunisia during the war. Basically this is the first time that I ever hear tunisia was considered italian during the WW2, because in the bac exams (highschool degree in Tunisia) we study that during Vichy's control there was a counselor who was in a official contact with the tunisian liberation parties, which supports the fact that tunisia was closer to being german more than italian during the war.
There are 2 known battles that took place in tunisia, one in Gasserine and other one in Merth where tunnels were dug, and basically the troops during tunisia campaign was under the german control, and italians were camped 90% in libya as it was their colony, and italians backed up the german entry in egypt against the brits, and even the brits are responsible of bombardments in tunisia in a battle called Hamem Sousse battle, in which they were chasing the german to their lines behind Merth tunnel. I can give additional information or references if anyone asks, but this is what they teach us in tunisia.
Very interesting perspective, but it's a bit confusing so far. I tagged you on Twitter with one of the biggest experts of the era, and he has genuine, detailed maps from both the Axis and Allies. I believe that could help us a lot in understanding the dilemma.
I would say it was co-occupied with the Germans more or less leading it as they had the stronger presence in that front as well as being more dominant in their relationship. I’d just make it cross German-Italian marked and call it Axis occupied.
German troops slightly outnumbered Italian troops in North Africa by the time of the campaign, and actual initial occupation was carried out by airlift by German troops before Rommels joint German-Italian army arrived
The general impression of the Tunisian population is that the Germans were in control , and they were positively viewed too.
The French and Belgian border in that map that shows the supposed Italian Tunisia also seems to be wrong.
I always like videos like this because I feel like the Italian involvement in world War II is often times glossed over. I'm not sure how it's taught in other schools but going to public school here in America. We always talk about the Japanese and the Pacific Theater and also the Soviet and American advance on the Germans. Mussolini is normally glossed over
Always funny to see how much intricacies there was in North Africa specifically between german and italian commands
IIRC, while Rommel officially served Germany, he reported during his time in NA to the italians but being a german leading an italian front, it gave Germany ultimately the charge of military affairs in the region
Yes but Rommel wasnt who intially occupied Tunisa and wasnt there until February. 5th Panzer Army did.
Emperor Tigerstar: Did Italy ever have Tunisia?
Rome: Do you even have to ask this question?
Italy not Rome
So its obvious he means modern Italy
Close enough, I know what he means, this is just a joke.
@iconmasterpro Rome is in Italy my dude. Stop separating Roman and Italian history my god, it's crazy to Italians and people who know basic geography,
@InfoRome you know rome and italy are separate countries?
Learn my geography? How about you learn your history rome didn't just evolve into Italy changing their name and flag
Heck the state called Italy started on sardinia not even on the Italian peninsula
Rome conquered tunisia yes
Italy didn't two states one started as a city state the other an island state
Romans and Italians are of different ancestry.
Hey congrats, this video got the "Tunisia in World War II" turned into a redirect for the Tunisian Campaign
If it can help, my grand parents remembered a mix of German and Italian soldiers occupying Tunisia. According to the Arabic Wikipedia, those three months, there were only fights and battles everywhere. Which means that no one really administered Tunisia at that time.
As a Tunisian i will say no one was controling or annexing Tunisia "technically" the king (bey) was the head of the state and the one which have biggest army he follow him thats all
Thank you so much for showing this I was going mad trying to figure this out
tunisian here: the french control over the civilian tunisian government remained throughout all the time period , but it was greatly greatly limited during the german occupation( basically the germans had military control over the land for a limited time but they did not envolve in the administration) they kinda of controlled the french who controlled the civilian government, some of the french resisted some played along and some played both sides ( it was some kinda of a spy/ secret police war in the capital), no italian control was ever present in tunisia
Learned something earlier today. For some reason, between 1950 and 1960 Great Britain gave back control over Somaliland to Italy. Seems a bit odd for an Axis power to be handed conquered territory back to it after WWII. Though, I'm not sure how much control Italy had over this territory in this time period, considering it was a UN Trust Territory. Not entirely sure what that means, practically speaking.
A few of the maps shown also try to illustrate the strange condominium status of the Independent State of Croatia following the occupation by Italy and Germany.
Man, I love when people investigate short lived events that apparently no one before them tried to investigate
Vichy didn't leave, Italy never administered Tunisia. Proof was that the King of Tunisia was deported to France in 1943.
General Giovanni Messe was the designated successor of Rommel as commander of PanzerArmee Afrika, that is to say Messe was put in charge by the OKW and the Comando Supremo of the Entire deutschesAfrikaKorps plus the Italian 1st army starting from february 1943 onwards. those forces were responsible of the southern and western front in Tunisia, facing the British 8th Army. Gen Von Arnim was put in charge of the German and Italian forces of the Eastern front in Tunisia facing the Americans.
Tunisia was under Vichy even after Case Anton (government existed) but an error is saying Rommel occupied Tunisia. He didnt; the German units air lifted there werent under his command at all and wouldnt be until February 1943 when Heeresgruppe Afrika was formed.
5:24 Malta mentioned, ill go checkout this journal from the University of Malta might be interesting.
Edit: Also the title makes sense and is not cut off "Our land has returned..."
If you are looking to show it accurately in future videos, Tunisia should be shown as a protectorate of Petain’s French State until May 1943.
Thereafter it was administered by the allied-aligned French High Commission in Africa (which had controlled French Morocco and Algeria since Nov. 1942), later merging with Free France in June 1943.
There are a few misconceptions at play here:
• Petain’s regime was not in fact dissolved in Nov. 1942. Since the armistice in May 1940, Petain’s regime had been nominally in control of all pre-war French territory (excluding Alsace-Lorraine and a few other bits) plus the overseas empire. The southern part (zone libre), based in Vichy, was unoccupied while the northern part (zone occupee) based in Paris, which remained the capital of Petain’s regime, was under German military garrison with little control from Petain’s government other than as civil servants. After Nov. 1942, the southern part was also garrisoned by the Germans (and Italians), with the zones becoming known as zone nord and sud. While Petain’s regime now had little control in either zone, it remained as the civil administration, and its foreign ministry remained in control of overseas territories that had not yet defected to the allies, including Tunisia.
• This also means that places like Corsica and Nice were never annexed by Italy even after Nov. 1942, they were under Italian military occupation but remained part of Petain’s France. The only parts of France annexed by Italy were the city of Menton and a couple of mountain passes. (The same is true of the Axis occupiers in Greece, with the German and Italian military occupations remaining part of the collaborationist Hellenic State, which was similar to Petain’s French State).
• Tunisia was a French protectorate rather than a colony, so the Bey of Tunis retained his own sovereignty under French protection and a resident-general. When the Germans and Italians occupied southern France in Nov. 1942, nothing changed about the administration of Tunisia, with the French resident-general retaining his position and remaining loyal to the Petain government. This remained the case when German and Italian troops occupied Tunisia later the same month, and until their surrender in May 1943, at which point the Petain-loyal resident-general evacuated.
There are a couple of factors that have led to the confusion that Italy annexed Tunisia in Nov. 1942, beyond the fact that they always wanted to:
• One is that German troops in the African theater were officially under the Italian high command: even though German commanders like Rommel were in control on the operational level, they and their boss Kesselring were always subordinated to the Italian Supreme Command in Rome. So Tunisia, being under Italian command from Nov. 1942, would naturally make sense to annex especially due to its large Italian population and the impending loss of Tripoli.
• Another is that the Italians did exercise a level of civil authority during the occupation, reversing some of the French policies that had suppressed Italians, such as reopening Italian-language schools and allowing Italian-language newspapers to resume publishing. They also conscripted local Italians into the military to help with the defense.
So it’s easy to see how one would get the impression that Italy took over the Tunisia Protectorate during this time, however they never officially deposed the French resident-general and despite forcing him to change some of his policies continued to utilize him and the French administration as a conduit to the Bey of Tunis until the surrender in May 1943.
There is some documentation in french.
French administration remains in place but in fact follows the rules of Rahn (sent by Ribbentrop). The situation is similar to that in France after the invasion of the southern part of the country.
In any case, tunisia was never under italian control.
I think an answer might be found in looking/thinking of it economically. Like if there are taxes being collected, who are those taxes going to? Is it a local administrator? What do they do with the money? It is reasonable to doubt they had many functional institutions while there was a war being fought in the area, but if you just think of the capital city Tunis itself, it was a city of hundreds of thousands of people, what kind of public services did the population have, like plumbing, power, and sewers, and how was it all paid for? What administration was ensuring enough food was brought into the city to feed the people when war was being fought?
If you can answer questions like that, I think it will become clearer what the answer is to the question "did Italy administer Tunisia in WW2?"
As another comment mentioned, Tunisia under the French was a self governing protectorate, so when it came to war and who controlled Tunisia, that self governing part probably came to the forefront when the French government who usually had control was no longer there. What normal government the Tunisians had, likely continued functioning as normal even when they didn't have a clear source of French authority, and while Axis troops occupied their territory. The Axis needed the territory for their operations, they didn't need/want the complete collapse of Tunisia as that would likely get in the way, so they likely were fine just leaving the normal Tunisian government operating as it was, as long as it didn't interfere with the Axis's operations.
Tunisia was actually enroot to become an Italian colony which is why the French took it so the Italians could not have it, that is why so many Italians where sent to it.
As a Tunisian my grandparents never said anything about Italian occupation , rather a German one
Same n I’ve heard about German close to my town too ! Italian just lived but not soldiers etc
Vichy France was not a puppet. While yes they had to pay an insane amount in war reparations as well as have half there country occupied, they where still fully independent that said no to Germany on various occasions, namely when Germany wanted frances fleet which lead to war breaking back out and vichy France being truly crushed.
Vichy France was in fact always legally at war with Germany, just in a state of armistice, with a formal peace treaty pending.
@Supahdenning never heard of that, makes sense though the treaty they signed is usually called an armistice
After the Carthage Peace
Tunisian here and all i had to do to answer this question is ask my grand father. And to him this Italian thing is bogus since the french still had their colonial regime up and running and the occupation was understood by the population to be german. Resistance operation still targeted french intrests alongside germans and italians.
We got history mandela effects before gta 6
Say that again
@@Hgrfu Yeah, perpetuating a lame meme.
@@tankfarterwhat
Really interesting. I would agree, for future WW2 maps, to let Tunisia under the property of Vichy Government together with Morocco and Algeria, and then after Darlan's ceasefire categorizing Tunisia as Axis/German/Italian occupied by military means
just a small correction, the name of the Italian General (7:52) is Giovanni MESSE, not Messi.... keep up the good work!
In fact, Tunisia was under French (Jean-Pierre Esteva) administration but occupied by axis forces.
Walter Rauff was the SS officer in charge of implementing the Holocaust in Italy and Italian North Africa. His mandate was extended to Tunisia after Case Anton. This is circumstantial and it could easily have been assigned to him for convenience, since he was already there. But it could make sense that if he was in charge of SS activities in other Italian territories, and he was in charge of SS activities in Tunisia, then Tunisia may have been at least nominally administered by Italy.
Far from solid proof though
3:00 literally what I do in EU4
My friend grandma she’s Sicilian from Tunisia the nation was under French occupation, but there was many Italians in the country
Yes Italian were 4x the number of French ! In Tunisia but it was under French administration
It's kind of interesting that Tunisia for much of its history was many times supposedly “controlled” by foreign powers, but was actually just doing its own thing
Yep For real
While that kept us in relative peace (minus the french occupation) it also contributed to centuries of economic mismanagement, foreign oligarchy, social decline, colonialism, and identity crises.
Yes Tunisia seems to be ‘colonized by everyone’ but it was never a proper colony neither bloody wars 😅
Including the ottoman the Roman the Arabs etc
I think it would be more helpful if you decided to search for Tunisian documents about their own history. And get help from Tunisians online for translation. Usually occupied countries themselves are best source for these kind of issues because for them, it is extra important to document and remember who invaded them when
He just looked up the wikipedia page... your suggestion is good but even if he just researched the topic for 5 minuteson the internet he could have found pleanty of french and italian books on the topic that probably contein the answer to the question.
@@Lodov yeah true, very shallow research. Such a shame from him
@@Lodov he specifically checked the sources from the page and compared them to see the most common sources that you apparently can find easily. He also then checked other works lmao did you even watch the video? If it's so easy, why don't you link a source?
@@RimmyDownunder in this case I'll have to mirror your banal accusation: Have you read my comment? or watch the video? The research in the video was poorly done, he only looked into the admittedly poor list of sources from Wikipedia, that, surprise surprise, were revealed to be poor. At minute 8:06 he also concludes with a logical fallacy. He proved that the Wikipedia’s statements weren’t backed by any source, yet he didn’t prove if Tunisia had an Italian administration or not. So the statement has just the same value of what was written on wikipedia, nothing. If he wanted to research the topic, he should have done more than what he has done. I’m not expecting academic rigor but the bare minimum. After all, it appears that this is his profession. Related to that, why should I look up sources for you? That takes time to be done properly. Read my comment. I said that in 5 minutes I found “plenty of Italian and French book that PROBABLY CONTAIN THE ANSWER” I would then need to acquire them and read them. And before you contest that, he obtained and read at least part of the poor wikipedia sourcesn. Why couldn’t he do it with better ones? Repeating provocation, have you read my comment? Or comprehended it?
Wikipedia in charge of citing sources lol.
Hello, your videos explaining changes of world borders made me interested and i wonder if you can make a video of the disputed borders between morocco and algeria espacially desert because i see maps of morocco controlling algerian desert and some shows most of southern morocco (sous) wasn"t been controlled
As a big history fan, you always make me think like "hey yes what about that one thing?" Great and very random subject
It was an axis occupation with probably a whole bunch of french collaboration involved
looks like the wiki page for Tunisia in WWII is gone lol
it matters not for an over arching plot so to speak but for history for history's sake.
I am tunisian, and I can confirm that that there was no italian administration of tunisia at any given time during the 20th century
I always heard stories about how the Germans and Americans fought near my grandmother's village back in the day. Also other stories from my friend's family on how the Germans treated them with respect unlike the French and how the Americans gave them chocolates.
But let me tell you something as a Tunisian. Tunisia was no else's property but our own, whether it's a colony or a protectorate it was a country shackled by occupiers who'll soon have to leave through any means. a Boiling pot ready to pour open and deliver the taste of liberation.
as italian I never studied o never heard about italian tunisia.
Baby ! Tunisians when they colonized Sicily and Malta ! 🇲🇹 they were under Tunisia rules ! Not Morocco as they claim !
This was under aghlabit dynasty ! 😮
This guy did not even bother looking up some references from the country he is making the video about.
Try searching for sources coming from Tunisian historians to get the full picture.
as a tunisian i never bothered to ask this question
Honestly I thought we were abt to go in on the sicilian failed colonies in Tunisia but this is just as well
The vichy government was never gone, what are you saying. The germans did occupy the south of the country at one point, yeah, but despite military occupation France was still led by the vichy regime, Pétain and his government were still in power of all civilian matters
damn wasn't expecting omniatlas drama on my 2024 bingo card lmao
My great grandfather never came home for WW2 to his family in Catania. Rumor is he met a woman and had a child in Tunisia. We found out the truth, he died of syphiliis in the late 40s.
I have a great grandfather who said that he came from Italy 🇮🇹 to Tunisia 🇹🇳 but I know nothing about the history why or how ! 😂
Based on this video, are you planning to create a new version of the video about World War 2, taking into account the occupation zones of each country?
I remember time ghost said it was annexed via decree from mousilini but I guess that’s another thing they were wrong about. That’s a shame
great awsome. finally found sommeone to talk about that subject.
Tunisian here! A lot of brothers are suggesting digging into the Tunisian archives, and what's funny is that all the records from that period in the tunisian archive are talking about stupid things like tribal conflicts over water sources, land and cattle also some ceremonies and visits
Shows the importance of actually going into sources when you read something sus on wikipedia
Perhaps a Victoria 2 style would help; show it as a series of green and grey lines to show how Germany and Italy occupied the territory.
On a similar note, I have always been confused as to why you show much of Romania as Axis-occupied after the 1944 coup?
Like I thought in August 1944 Romania switched from pro-Axis to pro-Allied - but your World War 2 videos seem to show western Romania being suddenly occupied by the Axis. I'm confused as to what's going on there.
8:02 Isn't Giovanni Messe? Not Messi, but it would be funny if he was related to Lionel Messi haha
This is something I've been confused about for years and I thought I was the only one who cared about this issue 😂 Never expected to see someone make a vid about it
one can also lean on social history more. if the italians didn’t effectively occupy the region, then what does a color on the map have to do with it
I can call it the 'Italian Dream,' haha. I'm Tunisian, and I've never heard of Italy administering Tunisia, not even for a single moment. Tunisia was a French-occupied territory from 1881 to 1956. During that time, there was a Beylic regime-a puppet monarchy controlled by the French administration. The Germans tried to influence the Bey and take control during World War II, but they failed.
I know an Italian WWII historian (though he's an expert on the Eastern Front), might ask him about that
Please do let us know what he says.
Just to confirm, my italian historical atlas put Tunisia under Vichy control with the axis just having a bridge head. The school text I use too never mention Tunisia as part of the colonial empire or just annexed or similar
4:08 the territories controlled by Germany included Western Macedonia, and part of Central Macedonia. The rest of Central Macedonia, as well as Eastern Msceodnia, were annexed by Bulgaria. "Southern Macedonia" isn't a thing.