Video idea for you: heat pump balance points and what contractors get wrong about them. Some contractors still are installing new heat pumps with heat strips and setting the heat pump to shut down below 25F and only use resistive heating. Thinking is stuck in the 1980s when HPs didn’t work in freezing temperatures, but now most operate fine below 0F, with reduced efficiency but still a COP far above the 1.0 of heat strips. Obviously this spikes the homeowners electric bill. Put a thumbnail with “SABOTAGE?” for views 😆
I just received a estimate from HVAC provider to replace my "communicating" thermostat on my proprietary Lennox system. All that's wrong with it is the screen went blank and the only solution is to replace it with a proprietary Lennox thermostat that only Lennox can install! $1700.00!!! $800 for the thermostat and $900 to install!. Now tell me again HVAC companies don't rip off their customers!.
You ever ask mc Donald's how much they paid for their burger and fries when you order a value meal go large? How dare people try and make a living. Lol.
@@robertpalmatier2699 No need to, McDonalds sells their product at a fair, competitive price and their product is not proprietary like Lennox. Of course, the "salesman" never mentions that.
We have had a "communicating" Lennox iComfort thermostat that was originally installed with our new furnace 8 years ago. The problem we have been having is the temp differential between first and second floor. The problem with iComfort is that it cannot handle remote sensors. So, a couple of days ago I bought an Ecobee 4 smart thermostat that came with a remote sensor. When I tried to replace the thermostat, I noticed iComfort was using only 4 wires but Ecobee needed 6 wires. We have a two-stage system. Fortunately, the guy who had installed it had used a 6 wire harness and not used the other (yellow and brown) wires. I called the Ecobee tech support (they are the best) and the technician walked me through the installation, taking 45 minutes. He had me take pictures and upload them at every step of the way. After completing the installation, the the AC test failed. The fan would come on but no cool air. The compressor would not come on. 20 minutes later, the technician gave up because there was another 4-strand wire that went from the control unit on the furnace to the outdoor unit. He did not want to risk and give me bad advice, so he asked me to call Lennox and get the wire configuration. Called Lennox tech support and the guy said I needed to call a Lennox certified repair person - useless tech support. I have an electrical engineering background. So, I stared studying the wiring diagram and discovered the wiring system for "non-communicating" thermostats. I had to go to the outdoor unit and rewire the outdoor unit as well. Mind you at each stem of the process I made sure the electricity to the both indoor and outdoor units were shut off. I opened the outdoor unit (compressor) panel and sure thing the four wire harness was connected to the communicating port of the system. Using the wiring diagram I disconnected the four wires from that port and connected them to the non-communicating port. Basically, I needed the red wire (R), the white wire (C) and Y1 and Y2 wire since we have a 2 stage system. I then did the same thing on the controller in the indoor unit (the blower). Turned the electricity back on and everything worked perfectly. Installed the remote sensor for the ecobee upstairs and now we do not have a temperature differential between floors. I read somewhere on the internet and with Lennox systems, one cannot replace the iComfort thermostat with a non-communicating thermostat (in this case Ecobee). Obviously that is nonsense because I did it. You just need to rewire the harness that goes to the outdoor unit as well.
Not a cold day in hell would i ever give up a 90% gas furnace for a Bosch heat pump. if you live in the far north than stay with a super efficient furnace that is sized properly for your space. I would rather have an 80% furnace than a heat pump in your location any day. if you lived way south in a different climate, than it would be different. But Bosch is just trouble waiting to happen and a heat pump is completely out of the questions.
Our thermostat went bad, so now we get to shell out over $1,000 for a replacement because we've been told we can only use Carrier Infinity Touch Control Thermostat with our system. We have a CARRIER INFINITY 17 HIGH EFFICIENCY W/ 2 STAGE COOLING 70%/100% W/ 96% 2 STAGE HEAT VARIABLE SPEED CONDENSING FURNACE. Any suggestions?
Forget to pay the internet bill and then you're HVAC stops working lol. Hard wire systems aren't going anywhere. They're too easy and reliable. No homeowner in their right mind would go full wireless when wireless room sensors are available. Wifi been around decades now and ethernet is still king for even semi-stationary devices. A bold prediction indeed!
Wired and local-only wireless for non-essential functions is the only rationale, secure and reliable way to go. Putting WiFi networks, internet access and HVAC cloud services in between your thermostat, furnace, heat pump, and system devices (AQI monitor, cleaner, humidifier, etc.) is just asking for big brother control and a fragile system. So many home security cameras no longer work after bad updates, company bought out, or service APIs become out of date.
Bluetooth and WiFi are different. Systems can even communicate through radio waves. There are systems like Rheem and Weil-McLain that allow troubleshooting and system analysis through Bluetooth now.
Are there units with communicating thermostats that aren’t multi stage or variable now? If I had it to do over again I probably would not have got carrier infinity heat pump and furnace hybrid. I should’ve got infinity variable AC with the variable furnace rather than the heat pump and two speed furnace. The old one went kaput A few weeks before the local distributor got the first of their slim five speed units. The Honeywell red link I IAQ thermostats I’d used on the original system with their zone damper control board were much nicer than these carrier ones that are like 700 bucks apiece. At the time I wasn’t aware of any other variable system and I thought that would be the right thing to overcome the builder having zoned it incorrectly without having to do construction to reconfigure returns. Anybody with any sense knows to avoid proprietary shit that’ll be harder to find parts for and people to work on and I did it anyway Needing to replace the first system that was only a few years old because of solidified debris in the refrigerant line and needing to replace the ducts again 2 months after having the second one installed because they’d filled with water (and clearly not thinking it through to the right combination of equipment) all taught me the installation is what makes the difference. I should’ve known if the damper system didn’t get around the zones being split incorrectly between floors neither would a more expensive unit, and the contractor could’ve billed me for more work rather than more product if he had explained that to me when I told him what I wanted. When I accidentallybumped into the duct in the attic that was completely full of water of course that should have been a labor warranty replacement but when he told me no I didn’t even argue because I didn’t want him in my fucking house again. Even (some of) the garage door openers now use some kind of pseudoserial communication protocol over their two wire controlbutton bus. Neither one of these are product choices i’d have selected if not for trying to avoid going in completely new directions from spec builder’s original decisions. Damn garage door opener with some kind of thing that Wayne Dalton quit making and the closest thing to it is a LiftMaster side mount jackshaft opener (of which I’ve since now had two). They’re fine it’s just I stuck with that style because the first door and opener had torsion springs versus lift springs with that gimmicky opener i’d have never chosen.
There is no third party thermostat (Nest, Honeywell ..) that support variable speed furnace. You will stay with manufacturing thermostat but you then lack of cloud stuffs and cloud control. You can still but you will lose what is called by "variable"
@@davidle896 I didn't think so. I'm sorta surprised ecobee or somebody hasn't come up with a multi-brand one almost like a universal remote since those are proprietary protocols but I don't think they're licensed. The carrier unit remote service integrates with other cloud stuff fine and I still regret it anyway LOL. You were definitely right that the installation makes a bigger difference than anything about the equipment Unless they didn't do well I think probably the 3 stage compressor and 2 stage furnace I gave up waiting on woulda been the better way to go. My mistake was forgetting the other unit was still a compromise. If I'm not willing to do whatever construction would reconfigure it correctly then any installation is a compromise with something to regret. Generally less to regret about cheaper compromises. It's about to be time to replace the smaller unit so I guess I'll either do the construction and replace them both or just get a cheap one
The irony is that all thermostats are communicating otherwise they would not work. It's the form of communication in which they work that classifies them. Also ironic is that I have removed so many "non wired code communication" thermostats on behalf of the property owners desires it's sad. I wire back into service or install hard wired thermostats into their properties so they can have some sort of simplicity and security of their systems working correctly.
That is exactly what I am facing. I have a Trane XL18 communicating heat pump with their proprietary thermostat that I find it is JUNK in my opinion. I cannot find another brand (maybe Honeywell) that will communicate with this system. I am danger close to tearing out the system and installing a 2 stage heat pump.
@@lewisholder7827 Local wires (Aka old technology!?!) is the most clearly reliable, durable, and secure system! Communicating (data) can work over copper wires as well… that’s what Ethernet is! So much more reliable that adding routers/access points for WiFi and depending upon and internet connection and HVAC companies “cloud service” in order for devices to connect and communicate! Bluetooth and other home automation wireless protocols - as well as wired - can communicate all the same low bandwidth data much better than an internet connection. Internet is only for remote control… most likely by HVAC vendors rather the home owner.
@@lewisholder7827 same here My system uses a non communicating thermostat that the goes to a proprietary interface that converts it to a form that the communicating system heat pump understands, well the proprietary interface is crap and has failed multiple times now,, and each time it has been under warranty but the service call is not covered, so each time it cost me a good sum because it always fails when you need it the most, so then it becomes an emergency call, the short of all this is that well the inverter system operation maybe more economical, the repair of the control system is costly, so it a zero sum game for the homeowner. I suggest to anyone considering a new heat pump to go with the simplest system they can, in the long run it will be the most economical due to repair cost when it fails. I'm currently trying to learn if it is possible to remove the interface and turn it into a noncommunicating system.
Those thermostats communicate with a protocol called I2C. I have a system that my technician just gave up and luckily I am versed in electronics to where I have a scope and I was able to decode the way the units communicate. The most problem found out there is to be able to get a thermostat with only two wires for communication and an extra two for power. The cooling, heating, heat pump... etc. all is communicated via "packets" of information to the furnace and to the compressor. Nice way of saving wires. Just a word of caution... I would not use the old wiring for the typical way since it is not twisted not shielded, and so the system may end up picking up interference on the cables ( cables act like an antenna) and produce intermittent service failures
3:42 Communicating thermostat appears to REQUIRE the Internet to work… 4:30 “like the internet” 🛜 big brother. It is important to distinguish “local” vs “cloud / internet” based communicating thermostats. They could all be local, but some vendors choose and design their system components so that their computers in the cloud are the “man in the middle” and “require” the home owner to provide the WiFi and Internet for the “system” to work. 🙄
Yeah I just had an entirely new system installed American Standard gold 17 two-stage heat pump with its matching gold variable speed air handler pretty sure neither or not communicating but they installed the matching American Standard 1050 Platinum thermostat those guys didn't know what they was doing because obviously communicating thermostat only three wires B R and D. Long story short thermostat wouldn't do nothing but keep throwing error codes turns out it also needed an American Standard BAY24VRPAC52DA Relay board to tell my system what to do. Now they are scratching their heads trying to figure out how to wire it to make my air handler which is variable speed into a communicating air handler. Basically they are going to wire up the relay board using the communicating air handler non communicating outdoor unit instructions from the thermostat setup booklet.
My system uses a non communicating thermostat that the goes to a proprietary interface that converts it to a form that the communicating system heat pump understands, I'm currently trying to learn if it is possible to remove the interface and turn it into a noncommunicating system. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks but you are confusing more. The non-communicating thermostat sends a fixed level DC voltage to the furnace controller, The communicating thermostat sent series of pulses. The modulation of varied pulse duration results in different voltage levels seen by the communicating furnace. The furnace uses these voltage levels to determine the motor speed and more/less gas valve opening
I am curious how the inverter systems function on Non communication systems, since the thermostat is only sending an on or off signal how is the ECU in the condenser know to vary the speed/flow of the compressor? How does it know without knowing the indoor temp but instead just an on/off signal? I assume on an inverter system communication style is preferred, but they are out there with the non communication type
I have a question for you, the previous owner installed a new A/C unit (10/2019) and the thermostat is battery run. I want to change the thermostat with a more up to date and touch, programable thermostat and I don't know which one I should get. I have a Carrier Brand Model number # FB4CNP025. Any suggestions? Thanks. I am enjoying your videos.
Guess I’m just old and stuck in my ways.been doing heating and air conditioning for 33 years.i changed out my two air conditioning systems last year and used the good old focus 5000. In the past I have done change outs for elderly people and they assisted we keep the there old T87 Honeywell.
![NOSFERATU - Official Trailer [HD] - Only In Theaters December 25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nulvWqYUM8k/mqdefault.jpg)
Video idea for you: heat pump balance points and what contractors get wrong about them. Some contractors still are installing new heat pumps with heat strips and setting the heat pump to shut down below 25F and only use resistive heating. Thinking is stuck in the 1980s when HPs didn’t work in freezing temperatures, but now most operate fine below 0F, with reduced efficiency but still a COP far above the 1.0 of heat strips. Obviously this spikes the homeowners electric bill. Put a thumbnail with “SABOTAGE?” for views 😆
Good idea. Lock out temperatures are something most avoid giving any real thought to
I just received a estimate from HVAC provider to replace my "communicating" thermostat on my proprietary Lennox system. All that's wrong with it is the screen went blank and the only solution is to replace it with a proprietary Lennox thermostat that only Lennox can install! $1700.00!!! $800 for the thermostat and $900 to install!. Now tell me again HVAC companies don't rip off their customers!.
You ever ask mc Donald's how much they paid for their burger and fries when you order a value meal go large? How dare people try and make a living. Lol.
@@robertpalmatier2699
No need to, McDonalds sells their product at a fair, competitive price and their product is not proprietary like Lennox. Of course, the "salesman" never mentions that.
We have had a "communicating" Lennox iComfort thermostat that was originally installed with our new furnace 8 years ago. The problem we have been having is the temp differential between first and second floor. The problem with iComfort is that it cannot handle remote sensors. So, a couple of days ago I bought an Ecobee 4 smart thermostat that came with a remote sensor. When I tried to replace the thermostat, I noticed iComfort was using only 4 wires but Ecobee needed 6 wires. We have a two-stage system. Fortunately, the guy who had installed it had used a 6 wire harness and not used the other (yellow and brown) wires. I called the Ecobee tech support (they are the best) and the technician walked me through the installation, taking 45 minutes. He had me take pictures and upload them at every step of the way. After completing the installation, the the AC test failed. The fan would come on but no cool air. The compressor would not come on. 20 minutes later, the technician gave up because there was another 4-strand wire that went from the control unit on the furnace to the outdoor unit. He did not want to risk and give me bad advice, so he asked me to call Lennox and get the wire configuration. Called Lennox tech support and the guy said I needed to call a Lennox certified repair person - useless tech support. I have an electrical engineering background. So, I stared studying the wiring diagram and discovered the wiring system for "non-communicating" thermostats. I had to go to the outdoor unit and rewire the outdoor unit as well. Mind you at each stem of the process I made sure the electricity to the both indoor and outdoor units were shut off. I opened the outdoor unit (compressor) panel and sure thing the four wire harness was connected to the communicating port of the system. Using the wiring diagram I disconnected the four wires from that port and connected them to the non-communicating port. Basically, I needed the red wire (R), the white wire (C) and Y1 and Y2 wire since we have a 2 stage system. I then did the same thing on the controller in the indoor unit (the blower). Turned the electricity back on and everything worked perfectly. Installed the remote sensor for the ecobee upstairs and now we do not have a temperature differential between floors.
I read somewhere on the internet and with Lennox systems, one cannot replace the iComfort thermostat with a non-communicating thermostat (in this case Ecobee). Obviously that is nonsense because I did it. You just need to rewire the harness that goes to the outdoor unit as well.
Could you leave your 90+ furnace when temps are below 20F and add a Bosch high-end heat pump in the far north US
Do it all the time!
Not a cold day in hell would i ever give up a 90% gas furnace for a Bosch heat pump. if you live in the far north than stay with a super efficient furnace that is sized properly for your space. I would rather have an 80% furnace than a heat pump in your location any day. if you lived way south in a different climate, than it would be different. But Bosch is just trouble waiting to happen and a heat pump is completely out of the questions.
Our thermostat went bad, so now we get to shell out over $1,000 for a replacement because we've been told we can only use Carrier Infinity Touch Control Thermostat with our system. We have a CARRIER INFINITY 17 HIGH EFFICIENCY W/ 2 STAGE COOLING 70%/100% W/ 96% 2 STAGE HEAT VARIABLE SPEED CONDENSING FURNACE. Any suggestions?
Forget to pay the internet bill and then you're HVAC stops working lol. Hard wire systems aren't going anywhere. They're too easy and reliable. No homeowner in their right mind would go full wireless when wireless room sensors are available. Wifi been around decades now and ethernet is still king for even semi-stationary devices. A bold prediction indeed!
Wired and local-only wireless for non-essential functions is the only rationale, secure and reliable way to go. Putting WiFi networks, internet access and HVAC cloud services in between your thermostat, furnace, heat pump, and system devices (AQI monitor, cleaner, humidifier, etc.) is just asking for big brother control and a fragile system. So many home security cameras no longer work after bad updates, company bought out, or service APIs become out of date.
Bluetooth and WiFi are different. Systems can even communicate through radio waves. There are systems like Rheem and Weil-McLain that allow troubleshooting and system analysis through Bluetooth now.
Are there units with communicating thermostats that aren’t multi stage or variable now? If I had it to do over again I probably would not have got carrier infinity heat pump and furnace hybrid. I should’ve got infinity variable AC with the variable furnace rather than the heat pump and two speed furnace. The old one went kaput A few weeks before the local distributor got the first of their slim five speed units. The Honeywell red link I IAQ thermostats I’d used on the original system with their zone damper control board were much nicer than these carrier ones that are like 700 bucks apiece. At the time I wasn’t aware of any other variable system and I thought that would be the right thing to overcome the builder having zoned it incorrectly without having to do construction to reconfigure returns. Anybody with any sense knows to avoid proprietary shit that’ll be harder to find parts for and people to work on and I did it anyway
Needing to replace the first system that was only a few years old because of solidified debris in the refrigerant line and needing to replace the ducts again 2 months after having the second one installed because they’d filled with water (and clearly not thinking it through to the right combination of equipment) all taught me the installation is what makes the difference. I should’ve known if the damper system didn’t get around the zones being split incorrectly between floors neither would a more expensive unit, and the contractor could’ve billed me for more work rather than more product if he had explained that to me when I told him what I wanted. When I accidentallybumped into the duct in the attic that was completely full of water of course that should have been a labor warranty replacement but when he told me no I didn’t even argue because I didn’t want him in my fucking house again. Even (some of) the garage door openers now use some kind of pseudoserial communication protocol over their two wire controlbutton bus. Neither one of these are product choices i’d have selected if not for trying to avoid going in completely new directions from spec builder’s original decisions. Damn garage door opener with some kind of thing that Wayne Dalton quit making and the closest thing to it is a LiftMaster side mount jackshaft opener (of which I’ve since now had two). They’re fine it’s just I stuck with that style because the first door and opener had torsion springs versus lift springs with that gimmicky opener i’d have never chosen.
There is no third party thermostat (Nest, Honeywell ..) that support variable speed furnace. You will stay with manufacturing thermostat but you then lack of cloud stuffs and cloud control. You can still but you will lose what is called by "variable"
@@davidle896 I didn't think so. I'm sorta surprised ecobee or somebody hasn't come up with a multi-brand one almost like a universal remote since those are proprietary protocols but I don't think they're licensed. The carrier unit remote service integrates with other cloud stuff fine and I still regret it anyway LOL. You were definitely right that the installation makes a bigger difference than anything about the equipment
Unless they didn't do well I think probably the 3 stage compressor and 2 stage furnace I gave up waiting on woulda been the better way to go. My mistake was forgetting the other unit was still a compromise. If I'm not willing to do whatever construction would reconfigure it correctly then any installation is a compromise with something to regret. Generally less to regret about cheaper compromises. It's about to be time to replace the smaller unit so I guess I'll either do the construction and replace them both or just get a cheap one
The irony is that all thermostats are communicating otherwise they would not work. It's the form of communication in which they work that classifies them. Also ironic is that I have removed so many "non wired code communication" thermostats on behalf of the property owners desires it's sad. I wire back into service or install hard wired thermostats into their properties so they can have some sort of simplicity and security of their systems working correctly.
That is exactly what I am facing. I have a Trane XL18 communicating heat pump with their proprietary thermostat that I find it is JUNK in my opinion. I cannot find another brand (maybe Honeywell) that will communicate with this system. I am danger close to tearing out the system and installing a 2 stage heat pump.
@@lewisholder7827 Local wires (Aka old technology!?!) is the most clearly reliable, durable, and secure system! Communicating (data) can work over copper wires as well… that’s what Ethernet is! So much more reliable that adding routers/access points for WiFi and depending upon and internet connection and HVAC companies “cloud service” in order for devices to connect and communicate! Bluetooth and other home automation wireless protocols - as well as wired - can communicate all the same low bandwidth data much better than an internet connection. Internet is only for remote control… most likely by HVAC vendors rather the home owner.
@@lewisholder7827 same here My system uses a non communicating thermostat that the goes to a proprietary interface that converts it to a form that the communicating system heat pump understands, well the proprietary interface is crap and has failed multiple times now,, and each time it has been under warranty but the service call is not covered, so each time it cost me a good sum because it always fails when you need it the most, so then it becomes an emergency call, the short of all this is that well the inverter system operation maybe more economical, the repair of the control system is costly, so it a zero sum game for the homeowner.
I suggest to anyone considering a new heat pump to go with the simplest system they can, in the long run it will be the most economical due to repair cost when it fails. I'm currently trying to learn if it is possible to remove the interface and turn it into a noncommunicating system.
Those thermostats communicate with a protocol called I2C. I have a system that my technician just gave up and luckily I am versed in electronics to where I have a scope and I was able to decode the way the units communicate. The most problem found out there is to be able to get a thermostat with only two wires for communication and an extra two for power. The cooling, heating, heat pump... etc. all is communicated via "packets" of information to the furnace and to the compressor. Nice way of saving wires. Just a word of caution... I would not use the old wiring for the typical way since it is not twisted not shielded, and so the system may end up picking up interference on the cables ( cables act like an antenna) and produce intermittent service failures
3:42 Communicating thermostat appears to REQUIRE the Internet to work… 4:30 “like the internet” 🛜 big brother. It is important to distinguish “local” vs “cloud / internet” based communicating thermostats. They could all be local, but some vendors choose and design their system components so that their computers in the cloud are the “man in the middle” and “require” the home owner to provide the WiFi and Internet for the “system” to work. 🙄
Yeah I just had an entirely new system installed American Standard gold 17 two-stage heat pump with its matching gold variable speed air handler pretty sure neither or not communicating but they installed the matching American Standard 1050 Platinum thermostat those guys didn't know what they was doing because obviously communicating thermostat only three wires B R and D. Long story short thermostat wouldn't do nothing but keep throwing error codes turns out it also needed an American Standard BAY24VRPAC52DA Relay board to tell my system what to do. Now they are scratching their heads trying to figure out how to wire it to make my air handler which is variable speed into a communicating air handler. Basically they are going to wire up the relay board using the communicating air handler non communicating outdoor unit instructions from the thermostat setup booklet.
My system uses a non communicating thermostat that the goes to a proprietary interface that converts it to a form that the communicating system heat pump understands, I'm currently trying to learn if it is possible to remove the interface and turn it into a noncommunicating system.
Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
OMG the brick background is real... I thought it was a filter the whole time
Thanks but you are confusing more. The non-communicating thermostat sends a fixed level DC voltage to the furnace controller, The communicating thermostat sent series of pulses. The modulation of varied pulse duration results in different voltage levels seen by the communicating furnace. The furnace uses these voltage levels to determine the motor speed and more/less gas valve opening
Non-communicating thermostats typically use AC voltage :-)
I am curious how the inverter systems function on Non communication systems, since the thermostat is only sending an on or off signal how is the ECU in the condenser know to vary the speed/flow of the compressor? How does it know without knowing the indoor temp but instead just an on/off signal? I assume on an inverter system communication style is preferred, but they are out there with the non communication type
I can’t speak for all of them, but I know the Bosch heat pump monitors the suction temperature and ramps up and down based on that
Good video! Just installed a Rheem Econet thermostat
I have a question for you, the previous owner installed a new A/C unit (10/2019) and the thermostat is battery run. I want to change the thermostat with a more up to date and touch, programable thermostat and I don't know which one I should get. I have a Carrier Brand Model number # FB4CNP025. Any suggestions? Thanks. I am enjoying your videos.
Check out the Honeywell T series.
@@NewHVACGuide I will and thanks for responding. I’ve enjoyed your videos.
Can an XC25 be ran with a regular thermostat?
The manuals so no.
Can you go into trouble shooting?
Guess I’m just old and stuck in my ways.been doing heating and air conditioning for 33 years.i changed out my two air conditioning systems last year and used the good old focus 5000.
In the past I have done change outs for elderly people and they assisted we keep the there old T87 Honeywell.
Old trusty