That's great Jordan, can't wait to hear your take on this technology. I'd suggest you also checkout Pyrogenesis a little since it's them doing the plasma engineering work for HPQ Silicon. They also have a waste management solution in the US Navy carriers and just received the Solar impulse efficient solution label for their high powered plasma torch to replace diesel burners in metallurgical industries. Many ghg reduction solutions under one roof. Keep up the good work, your videos are the best.
These presentations are head and shoulders above just about any other Tesla commentator. The level of technical and strategic understanding and the ability to convey that understanding to lay people is really invaluable and rare. Thanks!
@@thelimitingfactor Actually Elon said that using nano right now would be to expensive. But all that is about to change thanks to HPQ silicon , stay tuned.
I got really into battery research about 2 years ago and it took me so long and reading through hundreds of papers to understand the basics of Li ion batteries and you basically cover everything you need to know in a few videos so clear and easy to understand. You have an incredible talent for this. Thanks.
Brilliant synthesis of information about how charging actually works, explaining why the charge voltage control is so important. I'd never understood that properly despite years of taking an interest in batteries. Very good work.
Thanks for the support! I consulted some of the best researchers on the field on this one. Some of the physics here will be new even to some battery PHDs.
The Limiting Factor's Battery Day deep-dive presentations are among the top-3 tech content on youtube. Deep thank you to Jordan for his superb work and presentation. RUclips gem.
I was curious, so on my last road trip I checked my average stop time. It was 14 minutes with an ICE car. Actually using the pump, paying, then going to the rest room and paying for a quick snack was 12 on the short end, 16 when I had to wait once. So a 15 minute stop, where I can plug in and not baby the car waiting for the pump to finish is perfect. Tesla will be there in the next 2 years is my guess with 350KW charging.
Thank you Jordan for the incredible and fascinating video series 👍👍👍 battery day was really just the surface of a gigantic project. Elon and Drew have been great on just telling "a cost reduction story", hiding at the same the potential new user experience and new business field.
This is great! When Drew made that statement on the earnings call I saved that bit in my head for later google search, I figured you'd make a video too. As expected this video is much more informative that my google searches were. Thanks!
Jordan, great video. The V3 charger is made of two parts: The cabinet provides 1000 kw dc. The stall supports up to 450 kw ((my guess). The current 250kw is the car limit, not the charger!!!
Amazing video, thanks for posting it... you are an amazing teacher, and the quality of your videos show how much effort you put into them. Well done, sir.
Please make or be a part of massive online courses. Maybe together with Shirley Meng! You skills of visualizing this subject is clearly fantastic! But more importantly can inspire others to learn this subject on a deep level! The world needs more battery engineers and chemists that understand this! To help the world transition to renewable energy. This transition is clearly just started it is going to be a long marathon!
Why? It's a video about Tesla 🤦🏻♂️. There are literally dozens of companies working on Si anode tech. Sila is just one of many. They are the most well advertised, but may not be the 'most mature' or 'best.'
@@thelimitingfactor Exactly, your channel is pretty Tesla heavy. I meant we need more non-Tesla videos too. Sure, any video with Tesla in the name will get more clicks from the Elon fanbois. And that's good for your channel, I get it. Tesla isn't the only EV company driving innovation in batteries. BMW and Daimler are also onto something, and that's where companies like Sila deserve some attention. Just some honest feedback from a regular viewer. Your channel is great.
@@tomauto15 Lol, I get that a lot. I never even knew of that channel until someone made the comment. Regardless, I take it as a compliment. Thanks man!
Rob Maurer once had a Tesla daily episode discussing what Superchatger v3 is capable of. If I remember well, he provided good evidence that v3 is capable of much more than 250kW. I'm gonna try to find the episode.
Impressive work! Could have saved me hours of reading papers and reviews :D Not sure if you have the resources, but could you do a piece on how exactly Tesla wants to tackle the volume expansion of Si during alloying? They claim to use a Li-conducting polymer-coating to stabilze the SEI, but I honestly do not fully understand the approach. Lets for simplicity assume the polymer coating prevents the rapture of SEI that has formed around the Si particle. Nevertheless, the SEI also formed around the graphite particles. When Si expands during the next charge, the polymer coating to my understanding does not prevent the rapture of SEI that has formed around the graphite particles, because Si and graphite particles are simply to close together to prevent this. If it is the mysterious additional "elastic binder"that solves the issue, then you would need to add quite a lot of it, decreasing the amount of active material and hence energy density and increasing the amount of non-conducting material resulting in an increase in resistance.
If i remember correctly there was a Tesla Daily video by Rob Maurer that suggested, that the V3 superchargers are actually able to output much more than 250kW!
The effect of tabless batteries to charging speed is probably going to be much more dramatic than people realize. Imagine each layer of the role being charged at the same time with a larger current.
Great Work!! Would be interesting to hear your opinion on the latest Solid-State Battery news or possible 'breakthroughs' both from Quantumscape and now today from Toyota and whether these could really compete with Tesla's new 4680 Battery Tech both from a distance & charging rate perspective but also from a mass production limitations perspective! Cheers
Just ran into your channel, very scientific explanation. However, I would like to ask two questions: 1. Silicon would cause significant volume change of the anode material during charge and discharge. This change would breakdown the SEI causing faster degradation. How could we solve that? Tesla silicon mentioned in the battery day video had a speak of special polymer bonding. However, it is rather limited. 2. Silicon anode is more unstable at high SOC. This means more energy would released during a TP event. How could we address that problem. Apologize for my questions. As a person working in this field, just would like to learn more.
Check out my Silicon Deep Dive video with the green thumbnail. It came out a video or two before this one. As for 2.) TEsla has apparently designed further safety measures to reduce thermal propogation in the 4680 pack.
I'm recalling that the mode of engineering being being expressed here was once dubbed exploratory engineering by Eric Drexler. It has to do with mathematically exploring The possible design space using what's known about physical law, however in this case in relation to what's presently known about the firm's manufacturing capabilities.
Seems like a natural way to go is 2x higher voltage batteripacks that will allow 2x the charge rate at the same maximum current rating. So a V3 supercharger could provide 500kW charge rate.
I dont think Tesla has any intentions of allowing Panasonic to manufacture the 4680 at Nevada. Good on Panasonic for finally stepping to the plate and putting in an extra line and perhaps they've done some of own R&D to achieve a small increase in density. Energy storage business is going to grow as large as the car business according to Elon. That tells me that Nevada will eventually be solely responsible for energy dedicated batteries. If i remember correctly i seem to recall you saying that energy storage does not need high density batteries and therefore the 2470 cell is ideal for the energy storage applications. If Elon had intentions for Nevada or anyone else for that matter to manufacture the 4680 FBC battery then why have the secret skunkworks at Cato Road. Every Gigafactory from now on will supply their own battery requirements so i don't see the need to go to the exspence of fitting out Nevada with 4680 production lines when Panasonic will eventually be required to supply nothing but requirements.
JG All the way! Each supercharger cabinet manages 1MW of energy and I expect they'll be feeding that much to the semi. Hopefully we'll see high than 350 charge rates in cars even though Jerome said they might be looking at that level for cars.
I believe Tesla Easter Egg'd this at Battery Day on the slide at 1:26 . They show the tabless cell having only a slightly increased charge time when increased from 21 to 46mm diameter. If true, they neglected to mention on that slide that the 4680 cell has about 6 times the capacity as a 2170. 6 times the charge in about 120% of the time (estimated without a scale on the slide). Based on that idea 4680 packs should charge significantly faster, only limited by supercharger output. Theoretically up to 5x times faster, practically around 2x. Also, if true and they can charge faster, maybe discharge rates are higher allowing for even better performance possibilities in short bursts.
Wow Jordan! This one is just fantastic. Silicon solves so many problems. Evidently the expansion issues surrounding silicon are well worth solving. The implications are even more mind boggling. The super chargers start to become a massive moat. It's not as though they weren't to start with. It's impossible to see where the competition can go. Even with Tesla batteries, Tesla's full ecosystem from day one leaves them high and dry. Edit: typo
That's a fascinating insight, even though it's over my head. Really fast charging is ideal, but it's not absolutely necessary when you can get a significant top up in say five to ten minutes. Rapid charging is only important for long journeys, and a ten minute stop is fine for using service facilities, even if you intend to quickly move on.
Love the content, Jordan! Great work! This may have been discussed before, but do you see Tesla integrating some of these 4680 advances into their 2170 or 1865 cells, such as the tabless design, DBE, etc. and how these advances would improve the costs of those batteries as well? Thanks.
I (still) wonder if they'll follow the "KISS" principle (aka "the best part is no part") and stick with a standard (V3 "ish") unit, but on the larger vehicles use either one, or two each side? A drive through bay, split ports, and on the Semi, s similar arrangement to that seen on the prototypes, with two charger cables, into one plug, into the vehicle? 4 V3's would give the Megacharge requirement(?) There's also the weaknes of a cable to vehicle connection point to consider as the power levels rise.
I told Mitchell that I saw you for the first time on his show. With that smooth-ass voice of yours I thought for sure you were gonna look like Morgan Freeman. Since then I have gone on 2 first dates and both times I played your videos in the background just to pre-soak these poor girls before their inevitable goodnight kiss. Thank you, my Brother!
I would be more than happy if Model S had around 120kWh pack with new 4680 cells and was charging at 250kW all the way to 80% at flat curve. This would mean 25 min break for another 500km drive.
Mate, how do you investigate this ? You have an incredible way of absorbing and presenting information, I need to learn this, please help me out, cheers !
Wow this is very good research and presentation. Thank you. I will be waiting 5 years to purchase either a used Model Y in the UK or buying a new less than 30k eletric car. It pays to wait and allow the early adopters and BETA testers to sink their money and scale into the electric vehicles. Thumbs up. Some effort you put into your youtube content!!
silicon's Li-ion conductivity totally tanks for higher charged states, inducing a lot of polarization losses. it could very well happen that the taper after 80% for SI-anodes is stronger than for the current graphite tech IMHO.
A properly designed super charger does not need a significant potential difference to transfer charge if the surface area of conductivity is large. Tabless electrode surface area must be considered as a function of charge induction.
Please do a video on Atlis Motor Vehicles. Their founder and CEO has done some videos explaining their approach to getting their truck to fully charge in less than 15 min
Another Analogy is examining the electrostatic potential difference of a thunderstorm, long before the lightning strikes there is broad spread of potential difference that forms across a large region of volume and that gives rise to a lightning strike, charging a battery is kind of like a controlled lightning strike accept we seek to transfer amps instead of voltage. In a lightning strike voltage dictates the outcome, recharging a battery is the inverse correlation of that potential difference.
Something that's been making me uneasy is the rollout of megachargers. Higher currents mean bulkier wires and one can only raise the voltage so much before one needs to be a licensed electrical worker to even get near such devices. Given all that, the idea of 2 or 3 parallel CCS ports make sense. Instead of one giant cable, you connect 2 or 3 smaller cables. The fact that AC electricity is transmitted as 3-phase does provide an analogy here. Another concern is that megachargers would draw very high currents very suddenly, which could cause local voltage sags. If the local grid is small enough, this could even negatively impact grid frequency (a proxy for electricity supply and demand imbalance). then there are grid congestion issues to contend with. Grid operators could get very leery about these. One possible work-around would be to throttle megacharger power (whuch kinda defeats the point, doesn't it?) or be forced to pair megachargers with batteries. That sounds anything but cheap.
Just because it'd be funny, consider making a quiz/test for the next video to see how many in the audience actually understand the contents of your deep dive videos.
A chemistry question. In 14:17 you mentioned the overpotential is not high enough to plate Li on graphite. So my guess is, Si would have a lower nucleation barrier for Li, right? And is the overpotential decreased in this system because the Li concentration is decreased? (fundamentally, I think the Si serve as buffer which quickly react with most of the Li released)
Ok, I just notice the explanation in 13.27. I think you may ignore the nucleation potential(or just for the audience's convenience). The figure in 13.27 is referred to as equilibrium potential. However, in plating, there is an additional nucleation barrier. Anyway, you might know www.nature.com/articles/nenergy201610 this, since you explained the Samsung Ag paper. Nice work!
Thanks man and thanks for your thoughts. I don't understand nucleation potential yet and the researchers I spoke to didn't mention it. However, I'm sure it will come up as I learn more :)
I believe there is a charging rate/range sweet spot beyond which further increases in charging rate are far less meaningful. If your range is 500 miles and you can drive for six hours straight before stopping to recharge, I doubt many people will want to stop for less than 15 minutes after driving for that long. And it means a full twelve hour day driving is possible with just that one fifteen minute stop if you are up to it. Or, like most humans, you can make three five minute stops. Charging faster than that seems to have no benefits unless you are going to wear an adult diaper so you can pee while you drive. The charging speed you suggest here seems to be about as good as humans could need it to be. It erases that last little advantage of ICE cars on long road trips.
15:40 so Tesla and Panasonic are still sharing notes even though Tesla felt necessary to make their own battery and production line. I feel the past decade has been the fastest battery energy density increase and cost decrease. I'm sure 2020's will be much crazier and we start seeing much more utility-scale battery storage systems followed by major increase in home based battery systems.
Nice Presentation! A comparison with the QuantumScape design and the Evolution of the Tesla battery would be fascinating! Is the QuantumScape battery better? If so - why?
Actually especially on a Semi nobody needs a 5 min charge as long as human drivers are still involved. As Semi just needs enough range to bridge the time between regulator forced break times of the truckers. E.g. in Germany a trucker may drive 4.5 hours and will have to do a 45 min break fter that. At a maximum of 80 kph allowed for a truck in Germany and actually driven 90 kph by the truckers you would then have to get a 405 km range charged within 45 min. For sure a autonomous truck will become more worthy the longer it can run without charging. But I think autonomous trucks are still far away (in terms of time).
Point regarding the semi, most drivers would be okay with a 15 minute charge cycle however battery capacity would need to double in order for the semi to match over the road performance of the current Riggs. If you figure megawatts scale energy transfer for each "pump" and a typical truck stop charger size of 10 -15 units you're talking about a very substantial engineering challenge for both the truck stops and the grid.
With improved charge rate, Tesla (and others) could reduce the size of the pack producing a virtuous circle. Reduced pack size, reduces weight which increases range. Battery charges quicker as it is smaller in capacity reducing time to full (or 80%). Recently Elon mentioned that he was wanting the minimum range to be 300 miles. If this were to be 200 miles (still more than adequate for most situations) then pack size/weight/charge time would be reduced by 33% while (slightly) increasing range due to reduced weight...
Also, this would allow 1.5x the number of vehicles to be built or allow more stationary batteries to be manufactured assisting the rapid deployment of renewable energy technologies...
V3 superchargers are already capable of 350+ kW. They are limited now but according to the stickers on the cabinets they are much more capable that 250 kW.
If Tesla changes to 350kW, they will need 875A charger as long as they maintain 400V architectures. That means too thick cable sections. Do you think they will change the battery voltage architecture to 800V? I’m very excited to see what happens...
Quantumscape turns the plating problem into a benefit by using it to form the metallic lithium anode. Will be interesting to see how that develops in the future. We'll see results from Tesla sooner so QS will likely be playing catch up.
Supercharger capability will be a nominal function of the surface area with respect to tabless electrode design! I do not know what the co-efficient of surface area to charge potential that the new design facilitates. I believe the increase of that surface area relative to the pana cells is orders of magnitude greater. The conductive surface area relationship determines the potential for Amps or coulombs of charge to be transferred.
HPQ will be covered in the next video. Potentially. But, if, after the next video HPQ bulls keep showing up in the comments, I'm going to start blocking/hiding the comments. I'm starting to view these comments as spam. I've never seen a group of investors so dead set on promoting their hobby horse.
Hi Jordan. I think the HPQ investors value your opinion a great deal and want someone like yourself or Shirley Meng to validate that the HPQ silicon concept is a potential game changer. I for one am looking forward to your take. Your videos are fabulous and you do provide an easy to follow explanation of your research, keeping many of us non PHD types informed. Thank you.
Outstanding video Jordan....thank you. Huge upside for EV mining companies including Graphite. I know you have talked about Talga...for US market, Nouveu Monde will be first to market, but is Graphite One on your radar? Largest US deposit with a pea of $1bil, 40 year mine life and high quality graphene....check it out...will be a huge player in the graphite market. PFS was delayed from Q2 last year due to covid, otherwise this would be more centre stage now, vs under the radar
Jordan I think the v3 superchargers are capable of 600kwh but the chargers are limited to 250 I seem to remember seeing the tesla sticker on the v3 charger that shows its being limited to the CURRENT battery tech if I can find (RUclips video) the link I will post it. 😉🍻
teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/what-does-supercharger-v3-mean-for-existing-model-s-owners.137816/ It's in thus thread but I just googled tesla v3 supercharger specs and there's lots of pics of the specs of them. 😉
Imagine you have an enormous flood across a flood plain and the water has no where to go, what do you get? You get a lake. Now imagine that you have large surface area and the ground on which that lake has formed is highly absorbent, suddenly the great volume of water disappears into the ground. The tabless electrode is like that. There is very little vertical pressure ie, low voltage but the surface area is enormous, This what tabless electrode design enables.
Did you watch Undecided today? He lays it out pretty well...there is also a comment from me that gives further reasons why it may never hit massive scale and remain relegated to niche applications. LFP is half the cost and is also very tolerant of heat.
I've been pondering since yesterday. Why couldn't they (Tesla/ Panasonic) build a 4680 "can" production line at Nevada, take the new higher silicon, conventional material and insert it into the Tabless design? Then, as the Maxwell system is proven in the new factories, they can (quickly!) replace the front end of that line, converting it to the high spec cell. It would provide better production output, a further testbed for the 4680 format and a "hybrid" cell which should exhibit many of the performance properties of the eventual DBE cell, but using the proven electrode production method, which incidentally may benefit *more* from the Tabless system since it's more prone to heat throttling (?)
I think that the cybertruck will be able to use the megachargers. It would explain why they haven't started building pull through charges for use with trailers. Elon also made comments about 350KW being slow.
HPQ Silicon long and strong let's goooo!
Ever heard of HPQ Silicon?
Next video
@@thelimitingfactor Wow! You really are on top of things, when's the next video?
That's great Jordan, can't wait to hear your take on this technology. I'd suggest you also checkout Pyrogenesis a little since it's them doing the plasma engineering work for HPQ Silicon. They also have a waste management solution in the US Navy carriers and just received the Solar impulse efficient solution label for their high powered plasma torch to replace diesel burners in metallurgical industries. Many ghg reduction solutions under one roof. Keep up the good work, your videos are the best.
@@thelimitingfactor no way that's great news!
@@thelimitingfactor When is next video? HPQ?
These presentations are head and shoulders above just about any other Tesla commentator. The level of technical and strategic understanding and the ability to convey that understanding to lay people is really invaluable and rare. Thanks!
🤜🤛🔥
HPQ Silicon is the leading edge of nanosilicons
Yes....but will Tesla use nano silicon? It doesn't look like it. Covered in the next video.
@@thelimitingfactor
Actually Elon said that using nano right now would be to expensive. But all that is about to change thanks to HPQ silicon , stay tuned.
@@saint2709 hmmmmm, when did he say this? That could be helpful information!
Hpq released they could do spherical silicon particles from nanosize up to 5 Microns (and even carbon coat them in the same process if required).
@@thelimitingfactor here you go start at the 2:30:00 mark. ruclips.net/video/iU-poglarHc/видео.html
HPQ next! :D
The opening music always fits so well with Jordan’s voice.
JG! I watch ALL the TeslaTubers, and you're content is still my favorite!
I got really into battery research about 2 years ago and it took me so long and reading through hundreds of papers to understand the basics of Li ion batteries and you basically cover everything you need to know in a few videos so clear and easy to understand. You have an incredible talent for this. Thanks.
Thanks Ferris! 🤜🤛
Man your killing it with the animations and the clear concise info. 200k+ subs within a year and you can quote me on that!
Wow you‘re crushing it. Thanks for all your work.
Brilliant synthesis of information about how charging actually works, explaining why the charge voltage control is so important. I'd never understood that properly despite years of taking an interest in batteries. Very good work.
Thanks for the support! I consulted some of the best researchers on the field on this one. Some of the physics here will be new even to some battery PHDs.
Everytime feels like waiting for ages for the new insights videos
Animations were super-helpful in visualizing the ion gradient. Keep up the awesome work!
The Limiting Factor's Battery Day deep-dive presentations are among the top-3 tech content on youtube. Deep thank you to Jordan for his superb work and presentation. RUclips gem.
Hey Tim! You're most welcome, I appreciate the support!
Not just the charger (limiting factor).
The charging CABLE must be manageable.
Touche!
Robots or maybe wireless?
They just need to use lemon batteries
@@1janik Is that like the famous potato battery? 😜
@@737smartin haha yes
I was curious, so on my last road trip I checked my average stop time. It was 14 minutes with an ICE car. Actually using the pump, paying, then going to the rest room and paying for a quick snack was 12 on the short end, 16 when I had to wait once. So a 15 minute stop, where I can plug in and not baby the car waiting for the pump to finish is perfect. Tesla will be there in the next 2 years is my guess with 350KW charging.
Thank you Jordan for the incredible and fascinating video series 👍👍👍 battery day was really just the surface of a gigantic project. Elon and Drew have been great on just telling "a cost reduction story", hiding at the same the potential new user experience and new business field.
This is great! When Drew made that statement on the earnings call I saved that bit in my head for later google search, I figured you'd make a video too. As expected this video is much more informative that my google searches were. Thanks!
This knowledge makes my brain feel energized
Jordan, great video.
The V3 charger is made of two parts:
The cabinet provides 1000 kw dc.
The stall supports up to 450 kw ((my guess).
The current 250kw is the car limit, not the charger!!!
Amazing video, thanks for posting it... you are an amazing teacher, and the quality of your videos show how much effort you put into them. Well done, sir.
Thanks Jose! Glad to hear it 🙂
Very nice! I'm going to rewatch this one! Kind of puts yesterday's solid state breakthrough into perspective!
Please make or be a part of massive online courses.
Maybe together with Shirley Meng!
You skills of visualizing this subject is clearly fantastic!
But more importantly can inspire others to learn this subject on a deep level!
The world needs more battery engineers and chemists that understand this!
To help the world transition to renewable energy. This transition is clearly just started it is going to be a long marathon!
I wish you talked more about Sila Nanotechnologies. They are clearly the most mature silicon anode company in North America
Why? It's a video about Tesla 🤦🏻♂️. There are literally dozens of companies working on Si anode tech. Sila is just one of many. They are the most well advertised, but may not be the 'most mature' or 'best.'
@@thelimitingfactor Exactly, your channel is pretty Tesla heavy. I meant we need more non-Tesla videos too. Sure, any video with Tesla in the name will get more clicks from the Elon fanbois. And that's good for your channel, I get it. Tesla isn't the only EV company driving innovation in batteries. BMW and Daimler are also onto something, and that's where companies like Sila deserve some attention. Just some honest feedback from a regular viewer. Your channel is great.
Can you make a video on how you make your videos? :) They're great. This was great.
At some point yes! It will be a while though, 🙂
hpq silicon to the moon
There's something so distinguishing about your voice, man. The clarity and tone makes the subject matter feel almost eerie lol
😆
I get the,
Like we're teaching a kid quantum physics, very slowly and we have to make sure he understands it, otherwise the world ends vibe.
Reminds me of the voice from the Canadian show on the discovery channel "How it's Made".
@@tomauto15 Lol, I get that a lot. I never even knew of that channel until someone made the comment. Regardless, I take it as a compliment. Thanks man!
I continue to be impressed by the quality of your presentations.
You are the best at explaining this stuff. Thank you so much.
Finally catching up to these videos. Free battery university!
Another great video!
What I take from this; the future is brighter than I had expected!
Rob Maurer once had a Tesla daily episode discussing what Superchatger v3 is capable of. If I remember well, he provided good evidence that v3 is capable of much more than 250kW. I'm gonna try to find the episode.
Impressive work! Could have saved me hours of reading papers and reviews :D Not sure if you have the resources, but could you do a piece on how exactly Tesla wants to tackle the volume expansion of Si during alloying? They claim to use a Li-conducting polymer-coating to stabilze the SEI, but I honestly do not fully understand the approach. Lets for simplicity assume the polymer coating prevents the rapture of SEI that has formed around the Si particle. Nevertheless, the SEI also formed around the graphite particles. When Si expands during the next charge, the polymer coating to my understanding does not prevent the rapture of SEI that has formed around the graphite particles, because Si and graphite particles are simply to close together to prevent this. If it is the mysterious additional "elastic binder"that solves the issue, then you would need to add quite a lot of it, decreasing the amount of active material and hence energy density and increasing the amount of non-conducting material resulting in an increase in resistance.
Just found this: ruclips.net/video/YTW_Q63bEEY/видео.html
Maybe things clear up there :D Thats the problem if you watch stuff not chronologically
Looks like you found the right video, lol.
If i remember correctly there was a Tesla Daily video by Rob Maurer that suggested, that the V3 superchargers are actually able to output much more than 250kW!
The effect of tabless batteries to charging speed is probably going to be much more dramatic than people realize.
Imagine each layer of the role being charged at the same time with a larger current.
Great Work!! Would be interesting to hear your opinion on the latest Solid-State Battery news or possible 'breakthroughs' both from Quantumscape and now today from Toyota and whether these could really compete with Tesla's new 4680 Battery Tech both from a distance & charging rate perspective but also from a mass production limitations perspective! Cheers
Just ran into your channel, very scientific explanation. However, I would like to ask two questions:
1. Silicon would cause significant volume change of the anode material during charge and discharge. This change would breakdown the SEI causing faster degradation. How could we solve that? Tesla silicon mentioned in the battery day video had a speak of special polymer bonding. However, it is rather limited.
2. Silicon anode is more unstable at high SOC. This means more energy would released during a TP event. How could we address that problem.
Apologize for my questions. As a person working in this field, just would like to learn more.
Check out my Silicon Deep Dive video with the green thumbnail. It came out a video or two before this one.
As for 2.) TEsla has apparently designed further safety measures to reduce thermal propogation in the 4680 pack.
My brain hurts. But I feel smarter...I think. Thanks for the amazing content
I'm recalling that the mode of engineering being being expressed here was once dubbed exploratory engineering by Eric Drexler. It has to do with mathematically exploring The possible design space using what's known about physical law, however in this case in relation to what's presently known about the firm's manufacturing capabilities.
I'm certain that a lot more could be said about this and that I'm not going to be saying it right now!
Seems like a natural way to go is 2x higher voltage batteripacks that will allow 2x the charge rate at the same maximum current rating. So a V3 supercharger could provide 500kW charge rate.
The more I look at these developments since u posted this, the more I am convinced that Talga is associated with Tesla silicon.
I'll be interested to see if they choose something in house or external!
I dont think Tesla has any intentions of allowing Panasonic to manufacture the 4680 at Nevada. Good on Panasonic for finally stepping to the plate and putting in an extra line and perhaps they've done some of own R&D to achieve a small increase in density. Energy storage business is going to grow as large as the car business according to Elon. That tells me that Nevada will eventually be solely responsible for energy dedicated batteries. If i remember correctly i seem to recall you saying that energy storage does not need high density batteries and therefore the 2470 cell is ideal for the energy storage applications. If Elon had intentions for Nevada or anyone else for that matter to manufacture the 4680 FBC battery then why have the secret skunkworks at Cato Road. Every Gigafactory from now on will supply their own battery requirements so i don't see the need to go to the exspence of fitting out Nevada with 4680 production lines when Panasonic will eventually be required to supply nothing but requirements.
JG All the way! Each supercharger cabinet manages 1MW of energy and I expect they'll be feeding that much to the semi. Hopefully we'll see high than 350 charge rates in cars even though Jerome said they might be looking at that level for cars.
JG=Jordan Giesige Not Jerome Guillen lol
I believe Tesla Easter Egg'd this at Battery Day on the slide at 1:26 . They show the tabless cell having only a slightly increased charge time when increased from 21 to 46mm diameter. If true, they neglected to mention on that slide that the 4680 cell has about 6 times the capacity as a 2170. 6 times the charge in about 120% of the time (estimated without a scale on the slide). Based on that idea 4680 packs should charge significantly faster, only limited by supercharger output. Theoretically up to 5x times faster, practically around 2x. Also, if true and they can charge faster, maybe discharge rates are higher allowing for even better performance possibilities in short bursts.
Your videos are simply superb! Thank you so much for another terrific and informative program!
Wow Jordan! This one is just fantastic. Silicon solves so many problems. Evidently the expansion issues surrounding silicon are well worth solving. The implications are even more mind boggling. The super chargers start to become a massive moat. It's not as though they weren't to start with. It's impossible to see where the competition can go. Even with Tesla batteries, Tesla's full ecosystem from day one leaves them high and dry. Edit: typo
Yes! Finally!! Thanks again for the updates! Gonna have to watch this one a few time the coming days!
That's a fascinating insight, even though it's over my head.
Really fast charging is ideal, but it's not absolutely necessary when you can get a significant top up in say five to ten minutes. Rapid charging is only important for long journeys, and a ten minute stop is fine for using service facilities, even if you intend to quickly move on.
I need the ELI5 version of this video...
Bjorn Nyland notes 2021 model 3 warming up the battery to about 40 degrees C prior to scheduled super charging.
Love the content, Jordan! Great work! This may have been discussed before, but do you see Tesla integrating some of these 4680 advances into their 2170 or 1865 cells, such as the tabless design, DBE, etc. and how these advances would improve the costs of those batteries as well? Thanks.
Probably in a future video
I (still) wonder if they'll follow the "KISS" principle (aka "the best part is no part") and stick with a standard (V3 "ish") unit, but on the larger vehicles use either one, or two each side? A drive through bay, split ports, and on the Semi, s similar arrangement to that seen on the prototypes, with two charger cables, into one plug, into the vehicle?
4 V3's would give the Megacharge requirement(?)
There's also the weaknes of a cable to vehicle connection point to consider as the power levels rise.
I told Mitchell that I saw you for the first time on his show. With that smooth-ass voice of yours I thought for sure you were gonna look like Morgan Freeman. Since then I have gone on 2 first dates and both times I played your videos in the background just to pre-soak these poor girls before their inevitable goodnight kiss. Thank you, my Brother!
😂😂😂 Glad to be of service! Come one, come all!
@@thelimitingfactor Thank you Brother, I am glad you get my humor. I want to thank you so much for your videos, I am a loyal Fan!
I would be more than happy if Model S had around 120kWh pack with new 4680 cells and was charging at 250kW all the way to 80% at flat curve. This would mean 25 min break for another 500km drive.
This was such a great video! I finally understand lithium plating!!
But now we (all) have to apply that knowledge to the QS cell, which *uses* that plating to it's advantage! 😵
Mate, how do you investigate this ? You have an incredible way of absorbing and presenting information, I need to learn this, please help me out, cheers !
At some point, I want to do a video explaining my process... inasmuch as there is one
Wow this is very good research and presentation.
Thank you.
I will be waiting 5 years to purchase either a used Model Y in the UK or buying a new less than 30k eletric car.
It pays to wait and allow the early adopters and BETA testers to sink their money and scale into the electric vehicles.
Thumbs up. Some effort you put into your youtube content!!
silicon's Li-ion conductivity totally tanks for higher charged states, inducing a lot of polarization losses. it could very well happen that the taper after 80% for SI-anodes is stronger than for the current graphite tech IMHO.
A 4 C charge rate means if the cell is rated for 2 Amp hour capacity then it can be charged at a maximum rate of 8 Amps.
Average rate of 8 amps. Peak at the beginning will be higher
The animation though 🤯🤤🤩
A properly designed super charger does not need a significant potential difference to transfer charge if the surface area of conductivity is large. Tabless electrode surface area must be considered as a function of charge induction.
How about having two individual battery, and charge individually? So the charging time is cut by 1/2, particularly useful in semi trucks.
It makes most sense for them to not tell anyone about this and just roll it out as it comes along.
Please do a video on Atlis Motor Vehicles. Their founder and CEO has done some videos explaining their approach to getting their truck to fully charge in less than 15 min
Another Analogy is examining the electrostatic potential difference of a thunderstorm, long before the lightning strikes there is broad spread of potential difference that forms across a large region of volume and that gives rise to a lightning strike, charging a battery is kind of like a controlled lightning strike accept we seek to transfer amps instead of voltage. In a lightning strike voltage dictates the outcome, recharging a battery is the inverse correlation of that potential difference.
Great analogy!
Thank you Jordan, another great video.
highest of quality content right here gents
Something that's been making me uneasy is the rollout of megachargers. Higher currents mean bulkier wires and one can only raise the voltage so much before one needs to be a licensed electrical worker to even get near such devices.
Given all that, the idea of 2 or 3 parallel CCS ports make sense. Instead of one giant cable, you connect 2 or 3 smaller cables. The fact that AC electricity is transmitted as 3-phase does provide an analogy here.
Another concern is that megachargers would draw very high currents very suddenly, which could cause local voltage sags. If the local grid is small enough, this could even negatively impact grid frequency (a proxy for electricity supply and demand imbalance). then there are grid congestion issues to contend with. Grid operators could get very leery about these.
One possible work-around would be to throttle megacharger power (whuch kinda defeats the point, doesn't it?) or be forced to pair megachargers with batteries. That sounds anything but cheap.
This is great information thanks!
This is the one I was waiting for!
Just because it'd be funny, consider making a quiz/test for the next video to see how many in the audience actually understand the contents of your deep dive videos.
lol, yeah, a lot of gray matter being cooked out there
A chemistry question. In 14:17 you mentioned the overpotential is not high enough to plate Li on graphite. So my guess is, Si would have a lower nucleation barrier for Li, right? And is the overpotential decreased in this system because the Li concentration is decreased? (fundamentally, I think the Si serve as buffer which quickly react with most of the Li released)
Ok, I just notice the explanation in 13.27. I think you may ignore the nucleation potential(or just for the audience's convenience). The figure in 13.27 is referred to as equilibrium potential. However, in plating, there is an additional nucleation barrier. Anyway, you might know www.nature.com/articles/nenergy201610 this, since you explained the Samsung Ag paper. Nice work!
Thanks man and thanks for your thoughts. I don't understand nucleation potential yet and the researchers I spoke to didn't mention it. However, I'm sure it will come up as I learn more :)
I believe there is a charging rate/range sweet spot beyond which further increases in charging rate are far less meaningful. If your range is 500 miles and you can drive for six hours straight before stopping to recharge, I doubt many people will want to stop for less than 15 minutes after driving for that long. And it means a full twelve hour day driving is possible with just that one fifteen minute stop if you are up to it. Or, like most humans, you can make three five minute stops. Charging faster than that seems to have no benefits unless you are going to wear an adult diaper so you can pee while you drive.
The charging speed you suggest here seems to be about as good as humans could need it to be. It erases that last little advantage of ICE cars on long road trips.
15:40 so Tesla and Panasonic are still sharing notes even though Tesla felt necessary to make their own battery and production line. I feel the past decade has been the fastest battery energy density increase and cost decrease. I'm sure 2020's will be much crazier and we start seeing much more utility-scale battery storage systems followed by major increase in home based battery systems.
Nice Presentation! A comparison with the QuantumScape design and the Evolution of the Tesla battery would be fascinating! Is the QuantumScape battery better? If so - why?
What about 2 charge ports - plug in 2 x V3 for 500kW (700 with V4s?)
Actually especially on a Semi nobody needs a 5 min charge as long as human drivers are still involved. As Semi just needs enough range to bridge the time between regulator forced break times of the truckers. E.g. in Germany a trucker may drive 4.5 hours and will have to do a 45 min break fter that. At a maximum of 80 kph allowed for a truck in Germany and actually driven 90 kph by the truckers you would then have to get a 405 km range charged within 45 min. For sure a autonomous truck will become more worthy the longer it can run without charging. But I think autonomous trucks are still far away (in terms of time).
Excellent explanation for layman academics.
Point regarding the semi, most drivers would be okay with a 15 minute charge cycle however battery capacity would need to double in order for the semi to match over the road performance of the current Riggs. If you figure megawatts scale energy transfer for each "pump" and a typical truck stop charger size of 10 -15 units you're talking about a very substantial engineering challenge for both the truck stops and the grid.
With improved charge rate, Tesla (and others) could reduce the size of the pack producing a virtuous circle. Reduced pack size, reduces weight which increases range. Battery charges quicker as it is smaller in capacity reducing time to full (or 80%). Recently Elon mentioned that he was wanting the minimum range to be 300 miles. If this were to be 200 miles (still more than adequate for most situations) then pack size/weight/charge time would be reduced by 33% while (slightly) increasing range due to reduced weight...
Also, this would allow 1.5x the number of vehicles to be built or allow more stationary batteries to be manufactured assisting the rapid deployment of renewable energy technologies...
V3 superchargers are already capable of 350+ kW. They are limited now but according to the stickers on the cabinets they are much more capable that 250 kW.
Thank you
I've gained something from this video. Thank you sir.
Glad to hear it! Glad to be of service.
If Tesla changes to 350kW, they will need 875A charger as long as they maintain 400V architectures. That means too thick cable sections. Do you think they will change the battery voltage architecture to 800V? I’m very excited to see what happens...
Quantumscape turns the plating problem into a benefit by using it to form the metallic lithium anode. Will be interesting to see how that develops in the future. We'll see results from Tesla sooner so QS will likely be playing catch up.
Great video, thank you!
Supercharger capability will be a nominal function of the surface area with respect to tabless electrode design! I do not know what the co-efficient of surface area to charge potential that the new design facilitates. I believe the increase of that surface area relative to the pana cells is orders of magnitude greater. The conductive surface area relationship determines the potential for Amps or coulombs of charge to be transferred.
HPQ Silicon got the answer
HPQ will be covered in the next video. Potentially. But, if, after the next video HPQ bulls keep showing up in the comments, I'm going to start blocking/hiding the comments. I'm starting to view these comments as spam. I've never seen a group of investors so dead set on promoting their hobby horse.
Hi Jordan. I think the HPQ investors value your opinion a great deal and want someone like yourself or Shirley Meng to validate that the HPQ silicon concept is a potential game changer. I for one am looking forward to your take. Your videos are fabulous and you do provide an easy to follow explanation of your research, keeping many of us non PHD types informed. Thank you.
Outstanding video Jordan....thank you. Huge upside for EV mining companies including Graphite. I know you have talked about Talga...for US market, Nouveu Monde will be first to market, but is Graphite One on your radar? Largest US deposit with a pea of $1bil, 40 year mine life and high quality graphene....check it out...will be a huge player in the graphite market. PFS was delayed from Q2 last year due to covid, otherwise this would be more centre stage now, vs under the radar
Wow insanely good explanation! The graphics are awesome
Pasan Perera The plating will dissolve but it will be uneven this is why dendrites form the plating and dissolution process is not evenly distributed.
@@kazedcat Right that makes sense, thanks, mate :)
Jordan I think the v3 superchargers are capable of 600kwh but the chargers are limited to 250 I seem to remember seeing the tesla sticker on the v3 charger that shows its being limited to the CURRENT battery tech if I can find (RUclips video) the link I will post it. 😉🍻
teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/what-does-supercharger-v3-mean-for-existing-model-s-owners.137816/
It's in thus thread but I just googled tesla v3 supercharger specs and there's lots of pics of the specs of them. 😉
Imagine you have an enormous flood across a flood plain and the water has no where to go, what do you get? You get a lake. Now imagine that you have large surface area and the ground on which that lake has formed is highly absorbent, suddenly the great volume of water disappears into the ground. The tabless electrode is like that. There is very little vertical pressure ie, low voltage but the surface area is enormous, This what tabless electrode design enables.
Kindly make a video on ambri liquid metal batteries. They are promising.
Did you watch Undecided today? He lays it out pretty well...there is also a comment from me that gives further reasons why it may never hit massive scale and remain relegated to niche applications. LFP is half the cost and is also very tolerant of heat.
I've been pondering since yesterday.
Why couldn't they (Tesla/ Panasonic) build a 4680 "can" production line at Nevada, take the new higher silicon, conventional material and insert it into the Tabless design?
Then, as the Maxwell system is proven in the new factories, they can (quickly!) replace the front end of that line, converting it to the high spec cell.
It would provide better production output, a further testbed for the 4680 format and a "hybrid" cell which should exhibit many of the performance properties of the eventual DBE cell, but using the proven electrode production method, which incidentally may benefit *more* from the Tabless system since it's more prone to heat throttling (?)
Thanks for sharing.
I think that the cybertruck will be able to use the megachargers. It would explain why they haven't started building pull through charges for use with trailers. Elon also made comments about 350KW being slow.
Take a look at the leaked specs of V3 super chargers. They are capable of FAR greater charging capacities, likely waiting to be turned up.
Thanks.
Well done Jordan, another great piece of research.
1.21 mega-watts charger confirmed!