Handling + less hp is more fun, you need to use every gear up to the limiter and you need a lot of accuracy to be fast. Every car can be fast on a straight line
I drove an Rs3 for a while and yeah it was quick it was so boring, just plant your foot and paddle shift but my stripped out 2zzge celica rowing through the gear screaming at 8250RPM is way more fun to drive.
This video is a perfect mirror to my experiences. I currently have a 400whp 135i M sport and my last car was an Acura RSX (very similar to the EP3). My RSX had full suspension, race brakes, Poly everything, braces, 'Cheater tires' etc. My 1er has FBO, minor suspension updates and rear subframe braces on street tires. For me, its not even a comparison on the track, the RSX was more fun in everyway besides the straights. The big 6 Piston calipers on the 1er will cook the 'sport' pads after a few good laps. The RSX would run all day with no fade, no issues etc. I will forever be a fan of light weight, engaging cars.
as someone who was raised in the performance tuning of the 1990's the mantra was forget about BHP, brakes and suspension first no good getting to a bend at 150 MPH to find out you can't slow down or get around the curve
@@lmartinmiami82 MP3 how posh, my first audio upgrade was from a bog standard Vauxhall tape deck to a Blaupunkt CD player, MP3 was a thing of fancy back then. i admit to having a JanSpeed back box on it was the thing with Nova's back then
@@MrDavidfball in my 90's I was very young and definitely did not took the best decisions ahah. In Europe in the 90's when you had 150hp you was very lucky so listening a lazy 4cyl. Or a 6cyl. 🙄 At that time the best for me was the e36 3.2l this was and still is magnificent to listen all day long with no music.
@@lmartinmiami82 back then though cars with 150 BHP (i had a Calibra 16v with that power) were not weighed down with 101 electric devices or systems to make someone with no talent the new Michael Schumacher. they could get some decent speed and a good driver stood out a mile, cars now have good power but weigh half a ton more
@@MrDavidfball true I my crx and that drama speed being at 220km/h was like 300 😅. Good thing is now it's easy to double or triple the Hp but we lost in feelings because of confort, weight,... In France guys like Renault because of taxes and réglementation have to keep their engine small therefore the weight down and that keep these cars like clio rs or Megan rs pretty fun, wish they would do rwd one though...
The M140i Chassis is so poor from factory, but with some decent springs an LSD and the underbody chassis mounts from BMW it actually starts to handle very nicely. Shame BMW couldn't do it from factory, but I guess it would have been too close to the M2.
I thoroughly enjoyed this one! As a civic owner it pleases me to see with simple handling mods and braking upgrades I can develop a car that still remains fun and a little competitive as well despite any horsepower disadvantages 🤙🏻
And the most important when you compare cars: how do they FEEL. Which one you enjoy more. After this the numbers come. The things which are not in catalogs are more important.
Did you read this from a script cuz it was sooo good, and the editing was on point, we need more of these comparison videos again, really super Cool!!!
Love these videos, pushes EP prices up 😂 Seriously though ep3's are great! If you can get over how chavy they look and the weird steering rack. Mines a decent spec now and goes pretty well👍
I had an EP3, I put a Mugen Torsten diff in there. What an amazing car that was, the grip was fantastic. And the K20 with the VTEC @6’000 was just magical, intoxicating, what a noise ! Drawback was you would start getting nervous at 220.
Ahhh brake fade, the thing no mainstream performance car reviewers ever talk about, but the thing that makes the vast majority of heavy ‘performance cars’ useless after 15 minutes of track driving. I really don’t get it. Top Gear and all the RUclips channels doing 60-0 brake tests and other nonsense that doesn’t matter if the pad is obliterated after 15 minutes on track. It’s even hard to buy aftermarket pads knowing which will survive track use and for how long - all the folk talking about breaking power and dust but not trackday longevity. Speaking as someone who’s spent too many trackday lunch breaks changing pads.
Because brake fade is irrelevant for the vast majority of people buying such cars, and the small percentage of people intending to track probably (hopefully) already know they're going to upgrade the brakes.
@@1061shrink1061 even Engineering Explained, who should know better, responded to criticism that he did a brake test video with simple emergency stops, so he tested vented brake discs vs solid ones by doing heavy breaking down a steep hill...better, but still not a trackday duty cycle, vented discs have a lower heat capacity than solid discs, so get hot quicker, but also cool down quicker on the straights which is the point. The way to test the track effectiveness of brakes is to go on a track and measure the temperature and measure the wear rate over time.
@@1061shrink1061 ducting for cooling I think is important and something I will add to my next track car build (I am sadly on a car diet right now until I move house). There is only so far you can go with reasonably priced brake upgrades, and a simple bit of pipe to add more air (which is ultimately what is taking the energy away even after upsizing callipers and racing pads and vented disks etc) is potentially an amazing mod for increasing seat time.
Misha you do a great job on all of your videos and this one was just like the rest, I’d love to see more of these type of videos but I’ll watch anything you post lol
Hey Misha, I'd like to see a comparison between a M2 (N55) and M3 F80 or M4. There is a lot of discussion in the Internet if the M2 really is the more fun and faster car on track. Thank you for doing such videos. It is always interesting to hear opinions on "normal" or modified cars from an actual race driver.
My driving instructor for my first track day did a lot of wheel to wheel races in Hondas. When I still had my Civic Si, he told me "Hondas are low on power for a reason. They are momentum cars". I have since moved on to a different car but I will never forget what he said.
Power is nothing without control, but control can be without power. And when you combine those two, it will be hell lot of fun. Writing This before watching video.
Used to have the M135i with a few power mods.....had more fun in my Clio 182 cos of the handling. People just need to have the car they enjoy and not worry about numbers.
Great video Misha illustrating how power isn't everything. I'm finding my M240i has way too much power for how poorly the stock set up is on the car. I mostly drive on twisty mountain-ish roads, and even then, driving moderately, I find the setup to be very lacking in the "fun" department. Too much power, too much understeer. I much preferred using lighter cars with better brakes, better suspension and tires and less power.
You should definitely make some more videos with comparison of other cars with different modifications, it shows what the real difference is! And my personal opinion is that handling are way more important then horsepower! It's always better to drive the slow car fast, than fast car slow!
The thing I learnd in the past years is, that weight is everything if it comes to a fun driving experiance. I was used to my 535i with 300hp and bought a Mini One with 95hp. You can't win a price on the straight with the Mini, but it's so light and so much more fun to drive. If I wouldn't need the space, I would sell the 5-Series and buy a Cooper S.
lightweight cars achieve the same if not stronger performance using less tires/brakes and since operating cost is lowered you can go twice amount of track events at the end of the day, tires are not cheap lol
In the end of the day for one ring tool made especially for the nurburgring starts always with handling mods, suspension, tires, brakes etc and only when you feel very confident with that you will go for some performance mods, but always remember, on the nordschleife the power sometimes can be your biggest enemy. Have fun guys and thanks for this amazing content misha!
Need one of those hybrid racing shifters in my ep3! Awesome video , very interesting to see the difference even with the type R being so down on power compared
this vid was pure genius! A new format found, and a very interesting one. Looking forward to you comparing driving Ring laps in a Koenigsegg Jesko and a Tuatara :D
my honda k24 ep3 was one second slower than an 135i coupe on my home track hampton downs. the 135i is a reasonably priced daily/track car approx $20k in nz. my car was $12k. i have used semi slicks. endless brake pads on 320mm twin pot brakes. dc5 lower control arms on front. 5 stud conversion. stock exhaust/inlet. the 135i had st tyres pirellis. for a track car its hard to pass on a honda. the bmw looks like a good daily although i am not sure of the transmission reliability longterm as it is sealed. the bmw owner gives it fresh brake fluid every track day. i do fluids after every 3rd trackday.
Well another informative video , most off it i already implemented on my performance car. Learned early that who comes out off the corner the fastest has a good change off winning a race. However as you eluded to that a variety off modifications are a compromise at the least. What i learned today from you is that brake fade on the Bimmer will cause understeer, not a feature that you like to happened. Again love your experience on the Nordschleife , a great R&D report, about car set ups. And keep those reviews coming. Thanks for the afford .
Handling So many Euro hatchbacks blew by my 500 tq muscle car like it was nothing. Suspension components were already on-order; that experience reaffirmed the decision.
I vote for a combination of the two , handling and power... perhaps the NSX is a fun ringtool since emissions getting important these days 😎 Anyway , great vid again Mischa !
I saw a “pancake factor” in Misca’s driving performance between the two laps ...I believe we need to know if these laps are being performed before or after visiting Devil’s Diner. That would make answering the question of power VS. handling more real world for the uninitiated!
What I want to know is where the Toyota GR Yaris holds between the two cars tested? Lets have a three way comparison with the GR Yaris. You have to justify price also and I am sure the BMW is far pricier ann the other two cars. Nice video but not enough cars compared.
As a previous owner of a Honda CRX with a swapped in ITR motor and a few Mazda Miatas(mx-5), no doubt, I would have more fun with light weight, low(ish) hp, and a properly set up chassis. "If you can't go fast with 90hp, 900 ain't gonna help you". - Bob Hall (Father of the Mazda mx-5).
WIsh you could do a passenger lap with that miata doing like 8:20 with almost stock engine, I think it's the biggest possible expression handling vs horsepower
I love these comments as my 2 daily drivers are a rear wheel drive M140i and Megane RS III Aus GP special edition... Both hot hatches bother blindingly fast but both completely different. I can't say I could live without either of them 😁
Hey Misha - intersting and cool video! I`d like to see more of these comparisons, and also comparisons esp. between a original car that you can afford, e.g. the Leon Cupra and different steps of modifications on that, for example, first the suspension, second suspension, brakes and Tires... Thank you for your content!!!
Handling is more fun and makes your car safer
And yourself aswell. Winwinwin
and makes you a better driver because everyone can go fast in powerful car but only good drivers can go fast with low amount of horsepower.
@@wassilia1234 NO, not everyone can go fast in a powerful car. Sometime not even in a straight line.
Mr. Chapman & Mr. Honda knew this!
Just put 500hp in the civic
Sometimes even I am amazed by my own brilliancy
Then you would lose the front end
and 4wd
@@APBperformance And you’d lose on the weight .
@@maitreyoda7404 Add lightness.
Get this man a job at NASA.
as continental once said " POWER is NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL "
*Pirelli 👍
That really was pirellis Marketing wasnt it?
I still see Leclerc crashing into Verstappen in front of this banner.
@@gameboyterrorysta6307 lol
Handling + less hp is more fun, you need to use every gear up to the limiter and you need a lot of accuracy to be fast. Every car can be fast on a straight line
Right, and exactly why the MX-5 has sold so well for so long.
I drove an Rs3 for a while and yeah it was quick it was so boring, just plant your foot and paddle shift but my stripped out 2zzge celica rowing through the gear screaming at 8250RPM is way more fun to drive.
I’m in the handling Fanclub right now!!!
Absolutely 💯
Are we supposed to hold on to the hope you'll be owning a Honda sometime from now? 😉
@@gerardjoaquino8856 maybe the e30 got him excited for older cars again and he'll buy a new old track toy ^^
and you are Tier 1!!!
Handling for me is everything!
Couldn't agree more!
Cannot agree more. If I should spend money for turbo or shocks, I would always go for shocks.
@@110eidyR and tires. They make a huge difference. For me tires then suspension and brakes.
Same. Rather drive a 90hp car around the twisties than a 500hp car on the highway
Definitely you should make more comparison videos like this, well done.
Oh definitely, I love these vids!
This video is a perfect mirror to my experiences. I currently have a 400whp 135i M sport and my last car was an Acura RSX (very similar to the EP3).
My RSX had full suspension, race brakes, Poly everything, braces, 'Cheater tires' etc. My 1er has FBO, minor suspension updates and rear subframe braces on street tires.
For me, its not even a comparison on the track, the RSX was more fun in everyway besides the straights. The big 6 Piston calipers on the 1er will cook the 'sport' pads after a few good laps. The RSX would run all day with no fade, no issues etc.
I will forever be a fan of light weight, engaging cars.
This is nice to hear as I have a es2 track build coming along, very fun car k20 no power steering no abs just raw driving inputs and feedback
as someone who was raised in the performance tuning of the 1990's the mantra was forget about BHP, brakes and suspension first no good getting to a bend at 150 MPH to find out you can't slow down or get around the curve
Not the same 90's than mine ahah mine was intake, exhaust and mp3 CD music player first :)
@@lmartinmiami82 MP3 how posh, my first audio upgrade was from a bog standard Vauxhall tape deck to a Blaupunkt CD player, MP3 was a thing of fancy back then.
i admit to having a JanSpeed back box on it was the thing with Nova's back then
@@MrDavidfball in my 90's I was very young and definitely did not took the best decisions ahah. In Europe in the 90's when you had 150hp you was very lucky so listening a lazy 4cyl. Or a 6cyl. 🙄 At that time the best for me was the e36 3.2l this was and still is magnificent to listen all day long with no music.
@@lmartinmiami82 back then though cars with 150 BHP (i had a Calibra 16v with that power) were not weighed down with 101 electric devices or systems to make someone with no talent the new Michael Schumacher.
they could get some decent speed and a good driver stood out a mile, cars now have good power but weigh half a ton more
@@MrDavidfball true I my crx and that drama speed being at 220km/h was like 300 😅. Good thing is now it's easy to double or triple the Hp but we lost in feelings because of confort, weight,... In France guys like Renault because of taxes and réglementation have to keep their engine small therefore the weight down and that keep these cars like clio rs or Megan rs pretty fun, wish they would do rwd one though...
The M140i Chassis is so poor from factory, but with some decent springs an LSD and the underbody chassis mounts from BMW it actually starts to handle very nicely. Shame BMW couldn't do it from factory, but I guess it would have been too close to the M2.
Nothing can beat the feel of being on the limit of a balanced car 😁
I thoroughly enjoyed this one! As a civic owner it pleases me to see with simple handling mods and braking upgrades I can develop a car that still remains fun and a little competitive as well despite any horsepower disadvantages 🤙🏻
Everybody who is watching this video, knows the answer but watches it till the end😆😆.
And the most important when you compare cars: how do they FEEL. Which one you enjoy more. After this the numbers come.
The things which are not in catalogs are more important.
Honda's are very good track cars, just needs good brakes,gummi and suspension..
Love this type of vid's👍😎
Nice video Misha 👌🏻👌🏻 I would pick the Honda any day for this kind of use 😎
Kay - you should give your car to Misha for a drive!
you are, by far, best car youtuber rn, congrats not only to you, but all the team of apex.
Great comparison, Misha! Thanks for creating it. More of these would be fun to watch.
Cornerspeed!
Team Shirmer approved.
MIS H A
S CH IRMER
The ch h chhchch is messing with me?!?
Really good content Misha. Keep it up
Did you read this from a script cuz it was sooo good, and the editing was on point, we need more of these comparison videos again, really super Cool!!!
Nope, and thank you :)
Comparisons are awesome! thank you
Great video Misha!👍
Handling, nothing beats a well setup car that you can use to its full potential.
This is content! I heard Robert was jealous and now we know why. ;)
Super interesting one. Definitely make more of such videos with different comparisons.
Love these videos, pushes EP prices up 😂
Seriously though ep3's are great! If you can get over how chavy they look and the weird steering rack.
Mines a decent spec now and goes pretty well👍
I had an EP3, I put a Mugen Torsten diff in there. What an amazing car that was, the grip was fantastic. And the K20 with the VTEC @6’000 was just magical, intoxicating, what a noise ! Drawback was you would start getting nervous at 220.
Ahhh brake fade, the thing no mainstream performance car reviewers ever talk about, but the thing that makes the vast majority of heavy ‘performance cars’ useless after 15 minutes of track driving. I really don’t get it. Top Gear and all the RUclips channels doing 60-0 brake tests and other nonsense that doesn’t matter if the pad is obliterated after 15 minutes on track. It’s even hard to buy aftermarket pads knowing which will survive track use and for how long - all the folk talking about breaking power and dust but not trackday longevity. Speaking as someone who’s spent too many trackday lunch breaks changing pads.
Because brake fade is irrelevant for the vast majority of people buying such cars, and the small percentage of people intending to track probably (hopefully) already know they're going to upgrade the brakes.
And brake fluid
@@1061shrink1061 even Engineering Explained, who should know better, responded to criticism that he did a brake test video with simple emergency stops, so he tested vented brake discs vs solid ones by doing heavy breaking down a steep hill...better, but still not a trackday duty cycle, vented discs have a lower heat capacity than solid discs, so get hot quicker, but also cool down quicker on the straights which is the point. The way to test the track effectiveness of brakes is to go on a track and measure the temperature and measure the wear rate over time.
@@1061shrink1061 ducting for cooling I think is important and something I will add to my next track car build (I am sadly on a car diet right now until I move house). There is only so far you can go with reasonably priced brake upgrades, and a simple bit of pipe to add more air (which is ultimately what is taking the energy away even after upsizing callipers and racing pads and vented disks etc) is potentially an amazing mod for increasing seat time.
@@1061shrink1061 as standard or you put them in?
Misha you do a great job on all of your videos and this one was just like the rest, I’d love to see more of these type of videos but I’ll watch anything you post lol
Balance of performance, if something sticks out it doesn't help, harmony of all factors which influence overall performance.
Very nice video Misha. I would like to see more of these car comparison videos 😎👍
Hey Misha, I'd like to see a comparison between a M2 (N55) and M3 F80 or M4. There is a lot of discussion in the Internet if the M2 really is the more fun and faster car on track.
Thank you for doing such videos. It is always interesting to hear opinions on "normal" or modified cars from an actual race driver.
Awesome comparison! great content
My driving instructor for my first track day did a lot of wheel to wheel races in Hondas. When I still had my Civic Si, he told me "Hondas are low on power for a reason. They are momentum cars". I have since moved on to a different car but I will never forget what he said.
The maximum improvements as possible in handling and break and just enough power for poweroversteer.
Your Videos getting better and better with every single one Like it
And yeah please more Videos Like this one 👌
Your "Honest Comparison" part was something many forget! Great job on putting it out there
Power is nothing without control, but control can be without power. And when you combine those two, it will be hell lot of fun.
Writing This before watching video.
I would think that this type of content is great... Enjoyed the video, and I totally agree!
Used to have the M135i with a few power mods.....had more fun in my Clio 182 cos of the handling.
People just need to have the car they enjoy and not worry about numbers.
That cannot happen if you have never had the power. Once you've had a fast car and is out of your system then yes.
If you have to min/max, handling. Because power is cringe
And cringe is power. TheStradman for example
Great video Misha illustrating how power isn't everything. I'm finding my M240i has way too much power for how poorly the stock set up is on the car. I mostly drive on twisty mountain-ish roads, and even then, driving moderately, I find the setup to be very lacking in the "fun" department. Too much power, too much understeer. I much preferred using lighter cars with better brakes, better suspension and tires and less power.
Lmao I love the mini tangents Misha gets on to 😂
Keep up this series and make it a regular thing for sure!
Someone needs to get a Reliant Robin to the Nurburgring for Misha to test the handling 😂
Misha’s interpretation of ‘for research purposes’. 😂
A bit of both really
Nice Video, Misha. Like the smooth Music in the Background.
You should definitely make some more videos with comparison of other cars with different modifications, it shows what the real difference is! And my personal opinion is that handling are way more important then horsepower! It's always better to drive the slow car fast, than fast car slow!
I loved this comparison, please make more of them
I really like both a lot.
But it's always fun chasing a more powerful car with an underdog.
That was so interesting! Looking forward for another one
Excellent video and overlay
To be fair 15 seconds is an eternity in racing, even on a long track such as the Nurburgring
Nice video Misha, please make more like these. 👍
Nice video! Could you please make some technical content about how you'd set up the suspensions for the track?
This was a great video, and I would love to see more of these comparisons!! Thank you Misha for the content!
Less weight or more power would be an interesting comparison too
Less weight will always win in the long run.
The thing I learnd in the past years is, that weight is everything if it comes to a fun driving experiance. I was used to my 535i with 300hp and bought a Mini One with 95hp.
You can't win a price on the straight with the Mini, but it's so light and so much more fun to drive. If I wouldn't need the space, I would sell the 5-Series and buy a Cooper S.
Less weight is a total win in cornering.
Power helps you on straights. Less weight helps you on straights, on corners and in braking.
You can drive my stock engine M140i with all handling mods this spring 🙃
lightweight cars achieve the same if not stronger performance using less tires/brakes
and since operating cost is lowered you can go twice amount of track events
at the end of the day, tires are not cheap lol
In the end of the day for one ring tool made especially for the nurburgring starts always with handling mods, suspension, tires, brakes etc and only when you feel very confident with that you will go for some performance mods, but always remember, on the nordschleife the power sometimes can be your biggest enemy. Have fun guys and thanks for this amazing content misha!
Need one of those hybrid racing shifters in my ep3! Awesome video , very interesting to see the difference even with the type R being so down on power compared
6:11 E36 ftw!
This type of videos are really cool! Keep doing them! Love them! Really interesting analysis.
this vid was pure genius! A new format found, and a very interesting one. Looking forward to you comparing driving Ring laps in a Koenigsegg Jesko and a Tuatara :D
Great video, quality content as always 👍
my honda k24 ep3 was one second slower than an 135i coupe on my home track hampton downs. the 135i is a reasonably priced daily/track car approx $20k in nz. my car was $12k. i have used semi slicks. endless brake pads on 320mm twin pot brakes. dc5 lower control arms on front. 5 stud conversion. stock exhaust/inlet. the 135i had st tyres pirellis. for a track car its hard to pass on a honda. the bmw looks like a good daily although i am not sure of the transmission reliability longterm as it is sealed. the bmw owner gives it fresh brake fluid every track day. i do fluids after every 3rd trackday.
Very well edited video! I would love more of these types of videos.
It looks like the type R had obstacles everywhere while the beemer had less traffic , probably would of been 5seconds and not 15secs
Well another informative video , most off it i already implemented on my performance car. Learned early that who comes out off the corner the fastest has a good change off winning a race. However as you eluded to that a variety off modifications are a compromise at the least. What i learned today from you is that brake fade on the Bimmer will cause understeer, not a feature that you like to happened. Again love your experience on the Nordschleife , a great R&D report, about car set ups. And keep those reviews coming. Thanks for the afford .
Great content! Thank you from Spain.
Please do more more of this Videos!
Handling first always with a dab of power mods of course 👌👍
Really great video Misha!
Wow Misha, братуха, this video is dope!! We need more!!!
Brilliant content here. Great video today
Handling
So many Euro hatchbacks blew by my 500 tq muscle car like it was nothing. Suspension components were already on-order; that experience reaffirmed the decision.
I vote for a combination of the two , handling and power... perhaps the NSX is a fun ringtool since emissions getting important these days 😎 Anyway , great vid again Mischa !
This is brilliant Misha. I'm a big 1 series fan, but I love the comparison given here.
Love the video format!
Thank you for not putting sponsors in the video!
I saw a “pancake factor” in Misca’s driving performance between the two laps ...I believe we need to know if these laps are being performed before or after visiting Devil’s Diner. That would make answering the question of power VS. handling more real world for the uninitiated!
What I want to know is where the Toyota GR Yaris holds between the two cars tested? Lets have a three way comparison with the GR Yaris. You have to justify price also and I am sure the BMW is far pricier ann the other two cars. Nice video but not enough cars compared.
Enjoyed that comparison, looking forward to more of your expertise :)
As a previous owner of a Honda CRX with a swapped in ITR motor and a few Mazda Miatas(mx-5), no doubt, I would have more fun with light weight, low(ish) hp, and a properly set up chassis.
"If you can't go fast with 90hp, 900 ain't gonna help you". - Bob Hall (Father of the Mazda mx-5).
Thanks for doing this, great video
plz moore of this during the offseason!
Great video!
Very interesting comparison!
Please do more of these!
ik hou echt van u video’s veel liefde van belgië
More of these video pls Misha. Thumbs up 👍🏻
Honda is the definition of racing and motorsports. Absolutely legendary name.
Good video
Good comment
Handling and grip is always the priority. Power is the cherry on the cake - when it`s in harmony with the rest.
Useful video! Thank you!
Yes, please make more similar videos.
WIsh you could do a passenger lap with that miata doing like 8:20 with almost stock engine, I think it's the biggest possible expression handling vs horsepower
I love these comments as my 2 daily drivers are a rear wheel drive M140i and Megane RS III Aus GP special edition... Both hot hatches bother blindingly fast but both completely different. I can't say I could live without either of them 😁
No.1 mod: brakes. No.2 mod: driver. ☺
I just love your videos
This is an great video on why you should have a competent braking system before trying to push on the ring
Hey Misha - intersting and cool video! I`d like to see more of these comparisons, and also comparisons esp. between a original car that you can afford, e.g. the Leon Cupra and different steps of modifications on that, for example, first the suspension, second suspension, brakes and Tires... Thank you for your content!!!