Yes, this does make sense! I'm thinking about this from the perspective of development too, recalling my childhood as one where I felt totally at peace with myself and the world, basically waking up with a genuine joy every day, ready for another adventure. This changed over time and it seems most of my later years were spent trying to regain what was lost. I can imagine an alternate path where I might not have gone through certain experiences that led to this disconnect.
I shared one of your books in an INFJ group on social media with a high recommendation. One person bought two of your books. I think that we’re going to start a book club there soon featuring one of your books. I’m hoping that will happen because I think that your books are really interesting.
Thanks for the video, Ren! I normally don't comment on your videos, but I found this particular topic too interesting to pass up. Pardon me if I cannot put my thoughts into writing very well, but I will try to keep things as linearized as possible. I think that this new subtype fits me very well. Despite not having good relationships with my parents, I have always noticed how I seem to have higher self-esteem than other people I know. Comparatively, I have a low sense of self-confidence, but I am not all that bothered by it because I know that self-confidence will come with time. I used to frequent INFJ and MBTI communities on Reddit as a form of self-discovery, but I left those communities after noticing the lack of discussion on the cognitive functions and the overly negative viewpoints being promoted which were not relevant to my own lived experiences. The alienation I feel with the outside world is present to a lesser extent within the interactions I have with many INFJs. The reason I relate to this subtype is because it doesn't make sense to contextualize my childhood with an adaptive-submissive or solipsistic label. That episode of my life was very much just growing and developing and "going with the flow". You mentioned how our worth has to do with looking at the world in new ways. I think that this is true because I view my 'uniqueness' as a core aspect of my being. I tend to have a drastically different outlook on the world than other people, one that is outside the scope of optimism or pessimism. As another commentor put it, I have a high awareness of my own potential. I have many high aspirations, but I am also content with not fulfilling a majority of them. Ultimately, I want to live my life according to my own personal philosophy. If I had anything to critique about your description of this subtype, I would say that you are portraying us as too idyllic. I have experienced more than my fair share of trauma in life, and I oftentimes am disenchanted with the world, and I still have negative thoughts and emotions, but what makes high self-esteem so valuable is its ability to bounce back from situations. I automatically find myself practicing self-love and nothing truly brings me down for long. To me, that is what makes the essence and the beauty of me, well, *me*.
This is a tremendously insightful contribution, elle. You're really helping me delineate better what this type of INFJ is like. I wouldn't say my portrayal is too idyllic, but it is definitely too general/abstracting from the experiences of particular spiritual INFJs. It's thanks to testimonies like yours that I will be able to hone my descriptions and arrive at a higher-resolution portrayal. Thank you - I wish I could heart your comment twice!
Hi there Ren, it has been maybe 2 years since last watching your videos and went through plenty. Honestly, what you have described in the past few videos is almost like a construction of a “roadmap towards maturity”, especially from an INFJ perspective that experienced hardship from perpetual alienation. The gradual stages through adaptation, solipsism, then to slowly gather the lost pieces and eventually become a real “individual”. Not going to deny, this is a useful resource if you can solidify its concept. If I were to place myself on this drafted roadmap, I would still be in the process of exiting the stage of solipsism. Have identified so many unhealthy mental limitations and cognitive distortions using written mind maps, while picking up “fragments” strewn about in long lost memories to understand their origins and to finally make peace with them.
Good to see you commenting here again. I would like to solidify this roadmap without falling into the trap of essentialism (the "finite attitude" as I call it in The Infinite Soul). But it's definitely a work in progress and testimonies such as yours and elle's are deeply useful in helping me refine my understanding of the different subtypes and their respective trajectories. Interestingly, I think I am also in the process of 'exiting the stage' as you call it, though the stage I'm at is better described as a blend of adaptiveness and solipsism. I basically think I am, or at least have been for a long while, a solipsist with additional adaptive defenses. Hopefully my work here and elsewhere is also my own way of transcending severance by bringing my Ni project to life.
@@RensRoom After rewriting this a half dozen times with a number of fact-checking some assumptions, a direction of venture I can recommend if you are interested, is the deeper layers of the Enneagram. There is a spiritual aspect with this. The concept of the triads, regions, instinct, and their subsequent defensive mechanisms accompanied with fixations and fears. My personal research venture found it to be a surprisingly effective tool in deciphering an individual's ego structure and subsequent balancing towards individuation. However, it can be harder for attachment types to venture here unprepared (I remembered you being a 6), due to their behaviourally-observant and adaptative defense mechanisms. The deeper levels can completely kick you off reference-based observations and throw you into highly abstract and detached pattern recognition, which can be disorientating. However, I think that you have a solid enough academic framework to hold your own there, and discover something valuable that can be added to the gaps in your understanding. It is not as popular as Carl Jung's work nor as well-recorded, hence resources may be more obscured and confusing. Take note as well though, I don't go beyond the depth of aforementioned mechanics within the overall field, as below are mostly nitpicky classifications added on by some subsequent practitioners that try to distinguish endlessly minute details with diminishing significance.
@@RensRoom Sorry if I may ask, but have you ventured deeper into the Enneagram yet? I think some concepts there might have some use to your framework of understanding. Firstly, disregarding most of today's elements that box one into smaller and smaller boxes, there is actually a spiritual concept hidden in this field if research is done in depth. The concept of triads, instincts, and core regions, which bring forth noteworthy mechanics of passions, fears, and most notably, defensive mechanisms. I personally found this to be highly effective in deciphering one's ego structure and subsequently, allow ego balancing towards individuation. The field is more obscured and its sources can be more confusing, as subsequent generations of iterations gradually distort the interpretation of these named concepts. Just like mainstream MBTI being a far cry from its Jungian roots today, this one can be worth the venture if dug into the original resources.
Of all the descriptions of INFJ that I have seen and heard on line, this one fits me most, thanks! I didn’t know what INFJ meant, nor did I know that the description fit my personality, until I took the test in my mid-forties. I also didn’t watch so many videos to be convinced or validated, but I’ve often watched them because I was so curious about the different potential natures of so many people that also related to the INFJ personality. I enjoy analyzing people and learning what makes them tick. I suppose this would be an informal combined form of anthropology and psychology. I was personally raised in a good home, with good, loving, kind, parents, and we went to church regularly. From a young age, I’ve also cherished my personal spiritual relationship with God. Though I have not always been in a good place, and have dealt with many mistakes and betrayals from others in life, I still find peace in my relationship with God. I’ve also never had anything to prove to others in life, what you see is what you get. I’ve always been confident in my own abilities, not seeking validation from others, while trying to remain humble, especially in my younger years. I’ve always had a go get it attitude, having the confidence that I could do whatever I set my mind to. I learned early how to survive, support myself, and now my family. But, I’ve only ever been in competition with myself. I have always strived to be better today than yesterday, and better tomorrow than today, but content at the same time. For the most part I have been happy in life, and somewhat successful in my feild of expertise. Overall, my most cherished accomplishment is my family, they are all very special to me. One of my sons also tested as INFJ, and carries those traits as well. He is also very well rounded, with the same characteristics. So with that, I don’t believe that all INFJs come from narcissistic families, having been molded into who they are or have become, because of the treatment they received while growing up. However, being me has been tough at times, but has not necessarily changed who I am at the core. Being misunderstood while having good intentions, and being betrayed or taken advantage of often while being naive, especially when younger, has had the most adverse effect on my life. I always thought everyone had my best interest at heart, the same as I did theirs. But since learning that I’m INFJ, it all makes more sense and has helped me tremendously. I’m now more careful, but not guarded. I’ve also been able to help my son understand some things earlier in life. Hopefully that helps him navigate problem areas quicker. Sorry for the long reply, but thanks for allowing me to share. I just hope this may help someone understand another side and perspective of a different type of INFJ. If it means anything, I also have tested and relate most to enneagram type 8. More closely to 8w7 when I was younger, and more now with 8w9. Thanks for your time, research, and content! I enjoy learning more about various types, of our same type. Cheers, from USA!
Think we often have a tendency to project our own positive traits onto others. We are well-intentioned, hopeful, give the benefit of the doubt, and desire to see others in a positive light. We see the potential in others.
Absolutely, well stated! I also see potential in everyone and everything, and am very optimistic about positive results. Sadly, sometimes that backfires.
Hi Ren, I don't think we should call them "good enough," INFJs since it seems rude. Now I could be wrong in thinking this way, but words "stagnant," "self actualized," or "contented" popped into my mind when you were talking about them. Mainly because of what you said that they don't feel the need to reach out but also have a healthy holistic mind of INFJs. Sorry if I'm way out of line of thought with this though, hope your day goes well.
@RensRoom Oh no, I already understood the context. I was just simply putting my own two senses in there from another perspective, is all. Sorry for the confusion and misunderstanding.
I am torn. I remember that I was very much in peace with myself and the world as a child. When I hit puberty, there was some bullying and I went straight to solipsistic mode. It took few years to get over but by the time I was 18 I was in peace with myself again. I never felt a strong need to adapt to social norms or felt that external reality was particularly hostile (outside bullying experience). On the other hand alienation is a concept that feels very relatable. I still do a lot of self reflection and hang out in communities like this. Low anxiety. I am both confident in my high value and respect I get from my team at work, my input and vision is very sought after. But I still occasionally struggle with imposter syndrome. It is possible to do simultaneously.
I think that the kind of INFJ that is most applicable to me would be this one, although I am more leaning towards the solipsis end of the spectrum. I wouldn't say that I have that much self esteem but I do have a lot of confidence when it comes towards trying new things and tackling hard problems. I think the low self esteem has to do with this concept of alienation because Ni-Ti makes it so what it is supposed to be what I am murky
@@RensRoom There are a lot of times where I think that I wouldn't be accepted or liked by much people who have never met me before, mainly because of the internal dissonance that I have with most things about myself (internal dissonance in the sense that the ego isn’t consolidated as one thing, but more though that it encompasses the entirety of human experience, so identifying what truly is my own and what is external is hard to put down)
I think that 2 things are at work here - how we value ourselves in terms of potential and how we judge ourselves based on our achievements or the lack thereof. Both can be an issue. Potential is a concept which I believe is especially important for INFJs. We tend to want to achieve significant things, but often the awareness of INFJ potential is not there (in part of whole). But this is a dynamic situation, because if we are aware of a high potential but have failed to manifest anywhere close to potential, this will affect our self esteem. So an INFJ with lower awareness of potential could have greater confidence with less achievement. But in both cases, the need to achieve and be admired/loved are still there to minimise alienation.
This is very interesting. Especially the thought that these people can be more common, just not represented online. My mind connected this to enneagram and wondered if these Infjs cannot be 6. As an infj, enneagram 6, I struggle with a lot of fears, especially relationally. I can’t imagine how wonderful it would be to experience this type of freedom. Do you suspect their enneagram is different? Or is it more a nature/nurture issue kind of like you talked about in yesterday’s video?
@@jessicahunt3175 I think you’re on the money Jessica. Spiritual INFJs are most likely not 6s enneagram-wise. Just in the sense that fear and security seeking are not pervasive components of their relation to the world.
It's been a while since I've studied the Enneagram types, but as someone who suspects myself to be said INFJ subtype, I just wanted to say that I can quite confidently place myself as a 5w4 (sx instinctual subtype).
Interesting. I would be really curious to see if any self-identified spiritual INFJs are 6s. I don't think we will see many cases of that. 5 sounds more likely, or 4, 9, 1, etc.
How interesting, a spiritual INFJ, which is different than a spiritualized INFJ. To me it almost sounds like an individual who has not been kicked out of “Religion Eden”, where the current religious practices of today, still hold power to be able to stave off or contain some of the powers that exist within the psyche. It seems like someone who would not have as much existential tension, and fewer existential questions overall, thus able to just “get on with life”. (As someone who feels like my culture’s religion doesn’t capture or grab me enough, I actually feel envious of those whose religion really works for them) I have also never really separated the ideas of self-confidence from self-esteem, so that is an interesting way to think about it. I have read somewhere that our self-esteem is typically related to the perceived gap between our own internalized ideal self-image, versus feedback we get from our environment. Perhaps self-confidence has less to do with self-reflection, and more about just doing and the results of doing?
Perhaps self-esteem is also more tied into identity, or our current sense of self… which may or may not have sudden paradigm shifts through our growth and development and our changing relationships with others? Now (my Ne) wonders about those who easily get on with life and are full of self-confidence, then suddenly have a midlife crisis… like some kid of reevaluation of identity and purpose.
@@VeggieJohnx2 There are different psychoanalytic interpretations of self-esteem and its basis, but you are right that it is connected to the proximity (or distance) between the ego and the ego ideal. I can do a video about this specific topic at some point if you’d like. I’ve also gone in depth about these, also in relation to guilt and shame, in a patron exclusive video.
@ A video about ego and ego ideal might be interesting. Perhaps a video relating the self-esteem of each of the subtypes? Can one still have solid self-esteem outside of the more balanced spiritualized INFJ type? Do the personal ego ideals , or goals of each type differ, or perhaps even change as we vacillate between states, circumstance, development? Or awareness? (I personally think of ego ideal as some kind of inner calling that we try to find a way to align with if possible, but perhaps that is a very Introverted perspective. I find I really admire people who seem to really be in their element.)
Quite curiously, I feel like I am a spiritual INFJ, despite being an athiest and having lots of existential dread about the nature of death. This idea of a "Religion Eden" sounds foreign to me, unless you would consider my INFJ worldview to be its own religion. Which, now that I say it out loud, seems like something it could very well function as. An interesting topic for further discussion, perhaps.
I have never sought MBTI content intentionally, let alone INFJ stuff. RUclips just suggests me stuff that is not even close to my sphere of interest, like 65% of what is suggested to me, despite me using the tools to declare videos as "not interested" or block channels. This leads me to believe there is a degree of manipulative curation to youtube much like facebook was discovered to do for research purposes on influencing human affect. I only watch stuff because I like to see the types of conclusions that can only be reached by narrowmindedness, aka "expertise". Sometimes the ideas presented are great, and I might have never reached those conclusions on my own. Sometimes the ideas only make sense when you exclude other aspects of reality in the pursuit of specialization. This is the reason generalists make the largest shifts in culture and science, not the specialists.
Hmm, reading some comments and cannot resist but to make a post, ah! I actually really like the label "Not-good-enough INFJ" and why not consider using it in serious research? As Ren pointed out, a similar term has already been used in psychology / psychoanalysis, in reference to healthy parenting. Using such label could attract the attention of people in related fields. But even beyond that, isn't it a good term if it precisely conveys the message? It is an interesting concept to be "good enough." It feels almost unacceptable, which makes it so fascinating and attention-grabbing. Could it be that some of us are trapped in the pursuit of perfection, and that's what blocks further progress? Perhaps it's true that this may sound rude to some, but I say - if that is the case then that may be a good thing! It's like a jolt, it can make people think. Personally, I say: bring it on! Be rude to me if that helps. (half kidding here).
My view is that the "good enough INFJ" is really insightful psychologically as a phrase if you know the background; but it's just likely to be misinterpreted by newcomers or people unfamiliar with said background. If/when I write my next book on the INFJ, I might well introduce the term there.
I was thinking could there be a subtype of INFJ who is confident and very much in the world, but not living their authentic INFJ personality. They are trying to fit in but not in ideal ways. They see their ‘differences’ as quirks and simply act in more SJ ways. So not enlightened not a/s or solipsistic. I think such an INFJ would be quite tragic really.
I think what you're describing is a small subset of the adaptive-submissive INFJ (by the way: I am thinking of gradually changing the name to Compliant INFJ - let me know your thoughts). It is possible for an INFJ to achieve very proficient basic adaptation to an environment, such that it confers a real increase in confidence. But my view is that this confidence would remain ultimately superficial and easy to rattle. Perhaps this is the existentialist in me but I do not believe that living inauthentically is compatible with genuinely healthy self-esteem/a well-built ego.
Yes I agree, it probably does fall under adaptive submissive since it’s a rejection of Ni. As for the name, I think of it as inherently submissive or unawakened. But the latter term already has embedded meanings. It boils down to not recognising their differences as advantageous or beneficial. The reasons could be a lack of understanding or a fear of the challenges which come with standing up and being what you were meant to be. We shouldn’t judge INFJs hard for finding this hard. Solipsistic INFJ mode at least recognises the differences more but lacks the belief that they could work positively within the SJ world, and thus gives up in a different way.
I totally agree that living authentically is key for happiness and self esteem etc. INFJ struggle with that in some ways, even though they crave authenticity in others via Fi critic.
Just saying. But self esteem and self confidence are indeed the same. Reasoning being, confidence is literally in the definition of self esteem. You can't have one without the other. The more you have value or esteem within, the more confident you'll be able to express outward.
@fuzonzord9301 That depends on YOUR self worth/esteem, & value. Your belief in your skill set & abilities justifies your self esteem, which then directly influences your confidence. Simple.
Hmm… So what about people who are outwardly very self-confident in the things that they do, and yet obviously have a very weak sense of self? There exists territory that gets them very touchy and hyper-reactive if you go there.
@@endo4682 There’s a depth of insight in what you said actually. In the sense that I think one difference between spiritual and spiritualized is that the latter, because they’ve been through the stages of adaptive submission and solipsism, actually have more revolutionary potential - more of an inner drive to change the world.
This reminds me of a distinction between mentally healthy and flourishing (vs. languishing) in positive psychology. Many people are mentally healthy but most are not flourishing; instead, most tend to languish (e.g., see Dr. Dan P. Brown’s discussions on this). I wonder if a similar analogy could apply here, where one is healthy in the sense of continuing the journey towards spiritualization instead of the opposite direction haha :) (Can that happen btw? Can we stagnate or go back in development? I guess so.)
@@espressocoffeeshine4346 There’s truth to this, but the reason why I wouldn’t call them that is psychological health is really a continuum and I don’t think it’s particularly informative to draw a simple distinction between healthy and unhealthy INFJs.
I'm thinking people like Zendaya, Matthew Hussay, Marina Diamandis, Simon Sinek and Viola Davis might be spiritualized INFJs. And they inspire me sooo deeply ❤ I grew up around xSFxs and my Ni was chastised by them, because I brought up topics that made their suppressed sides and volatile egos very deeply uncomfortable. But later as I got to meet more and more N types, my Ni had something of renaissance and the excessive people-plessing is now reduced to very occasional brief moments. But I have always had an interest in psychology and the esoterica and since I started dedicating 80% of my free time to them, I grew to be so much more myself and my confidence levels have risen. My conclusion is that being around other N types (I have all types of NTs and NFs in my inner circle) has helped me develope better Fi, better Te, stronger Ti and Ne and that's one of the best things that have happened to me. Of course, I have met some deeply unhealthy N types, most of them were INTJs, but I have learned a lot from them, too, even though it was mostly negative. You know, they say that had we not gone through all the hurdles we have dealt with, we would be very different people. I don't think that would've been my case. If I didn't have to spend so many years and energy panicking about my emotional, mental and sometimes even physical safety, battling crippling perfectionism and anxiety, I would have dedicated my energy to studying the things that I have wanted and I would've achieved so much more and been able to help many more people. And I've always been very driven and highly curious. But who knows. I might well be wrong.
OMG dude....let me spell it out for you... but first...QUESTION.... HOW DO YOU KNOW?????.... your not spiritualised????.... and you know no INFJs that are spiritualised.... sooooo.... how are you getting your information???.... the same way anyone else can... tell me i'm lyin....🤨 (i wont hold my breath...) Ni.... Si/Se..... COMPLETE OPPOSITES. let me say it again incase... COMPLETE OPPOSITES. Si/Se(or any other funcion for that matter) CANNOT QUANTIFY what Ni is. PERIOD. ONLY Spiritualised INFJs(such as myself) truly know what its like. (and I PERSONALLY...KNOW that...through EXPERIENCE) I mean, do ya'll go to the the donut shop to buy tires????.... MAYbe...
Yes, this does make sense! I'm thinking about this from the perspective of development too, recalling my childhood as one where I felt totally at peace with myself and the world, basically waking up with a genuine joy every day, ready for another adventure. This changed over time and it seems most of my later years were spent trying to regain what was lost. I can imagine an alternate path where I might not have gone through certain experiences that led to this disconnect.
I shared one of your books in an INFJ group on social media with a high recommendation. One person bought two of your books. I think that we’re going to start a book club there soon featuring one of your books. I’m hoping that will happen because I think that your books are really interesting.
Thank you so much for contributing so proactively to sharing my ideas. Keep me posted on the book club!
@@RensRoomYou’re welcome! I will definitely do that.
Thanks for the video, Ren! I normally don't comment on your videos, but I found this particular topic too interesting to pass up. Pardon me if I cannot put my thoughts into writing very well, but I will try to keep things as linearized as possible.
I think that this new subtype fits me very well. Despite not having good relationships with my parents, I have always noticed how I seem to have higher self-esteem than other people I know. Comparatively, I have a low sense of self-confidence, but I am not all that bothered by it because I know that self-confidence will come with time. I used to frequent INFJ and MBTI communities on Reddit as a form of self-discovery, but I left those communities after noticing the lack of discussion on the cognitive functions and the overly negative viewpoints being promoted which were not relevant to my own lived experiences. The alienation I feel with the outside world is present to a lesser extent within the interactions I have with many INFJs. The reason I relate to this subtype is because it doesn't make sense to contextualize my childhood with an adaptive-submissive or solipsistic label. That episode of my life was very much just growing and developing and "going with the flow".
You mentioned how our worth has to do with looking at the world in new ways. I think that this is true because I view my 'uniqueness' as a core aspect of my being. I tend to have a drastically different outlook on the world than other people, one that is outside the scope of optimism or pessimism. As another commentor put it, I have a high awareness of my own potential. I have many high aspirations, but I am also content with not fulfilling a majority of them. Ultimately, I want to live my life according to my own personal philosophy. If I had anything to critique about your description of this subtype, I would say that you are portraying us as too idyllic. I have experienced more than my fair share of trauma in life, and I oftentimes am disenchanted with the world, and I still have negative thoughts and emotions, but what makes high self-esteem so valuable is its ability to bounce back from situations. I automatically find myself practicing self-love and nothing truly brings me down for long. To me, that is what makes the essence and the beauty of me, well, *me*.
This is a tremendously insightful contribution, elle. You're really helping me delineate better what this type of INFJ is like. I wouldn't say my portrayal is too idyllic, but it is definitely too general/abstracting from the experiences of particular spiritual INFJs. It's thanks to testimonies like yours that I will be able to hone my descriptions and arrive at a higher-resolution portrayal. Thank you - I wish I could heart your comment twice!
Hi there Ren, it has been maybe 2 years since last watching your videos and went through plenty. Honestly, what you have described in the past few videos is almost like a construction of a “roadmap towards maturity”, especially from an INFJ perspective that experienced hardship from perpetual alienation. The gradual stages through adaptation, solipsism, then to slowly gather the lost pieces and eventually become a real “individual”. Not going to deny, this is a useful resource if you can solidify its concept. If I were to place myself on this drafted roadmap, I would still be in the process of exiting the stage of solipsism. Have identified so many unhealthy mental limitations and cognitive distortions using written mind maps, while picking up “fragments” strewn about in long lost memories to understand their origins and to finally make peace with them.
Good to see you commenting here again. I would like to solidify this roadmap without falling into the trap of essentialism (the "finite attitude" as I call it in The Infinite Soul). But it's definitely a work in progress and testimonies such as yours and elle's are deeply useful in helping me refine my understanding of the different subtypes and their respective trajectories. Interestingly, I think I am also in the process of 'exiting the stage' as you call it, though the stage I'm at is better described as a blend of adaptiveness and solipsism.
I basically think I am, or at least have been for a long while, a solipsist with additional adaptive defenses. Hopefully my work here and elsewhere is also my own way of transcending severance by bringing my Ni project to life.
@@RensRoom After rewriting this a half dozen times with a number of fact-checking some assumptions, a direction of venture I can recommend if you are interested, is the deeper layers of the Enneagram. There is a spiritual aspect with this. The concept of the triads, regions, instinct, and their subsequent defensive mechanisms accompanied with fixations and fears. My personal research venture found it to be a surprisingly effective tool in deciphering an individual's ego structure and subsequent balancing towards individuation. However, it can be harder for attachment types to venture here unprepared (I remembered you being a 6), due to their behaviourally-observant and adaptative defense mechanisms. The deeper levels can completely kick you off reference-based observations and throw you into highly abstract and detached pattern recognition, which can be disorientating. However, I think that you have a solid enough academic framework to hold your own there, and discover something valuable that can be added to the gaps in your understanding. It is not as popular as Carl Jung's work nor as well-recorded, hence resources may be more obscured and confusing. Take note as well though, I don't go beyond the depth of aforementioned mechanics within the overall field, as below are mostly nitpicky classifications added on by some subsequent practitioners that try to distinguish endlessly minute details with diminishing significance.
@@RensRoom Sorry if I may ask, but have you ventured deeper into the Enneagram yet? I think some concepts there might have some use to your framework of understanding. Firstly, disregarding most of today's elements that box one into smaller and smaller boxes, there is actually a spiritual concept hidden in this field if research is done in depth. The concept of triads, instincts, and core regions, which bring forth noteworthy mechanics of passions, fears, and most notably, defensive mechanisms. I personally found this to be highly effective in deciphering one's ego structure and subsequently, allow ego balancing towards individuation. The field is more obscured and its sources can be more confusing, as subsequent generations of iterations gradually distort the interpretation of these named concepts. Just like mainstream MBTI being a far cry from its Jungian roots today, this one can be worth the venture if dug into the original resources.
Of all the descriptions of INFJ that I have seen and heard on line, this one fits me most, thanks!
I didn’t know what INFJ meant, nor did I know that the description fit my personality, until I took the test in my mid-forties. I also didn’t watch so many videos to be convinced or validated, but I’ve often watched them because I was so curious about the different potential natures of so many people that also related to the INFJ personality. I enjoy analyzing people and learning what makes them tick. I suppose this would be an informal combined form of anthropology and psychology.
I was personally raised in a good home, with good, loving, kind, parents, and we went to church regularly. From a young age, I’ve also cherished my personal spiritual relationship with God. Though I have not always been in a good place, and have dealt with many mistakes and betrayals from others in life, I still find peace in my relationship with God.
I’ve also never had anything to prove to others in life, what you see is what you get. I’ve always been confident in my own abilities, not seeking validation from others, while trying to remain humble, especially in my younger years. I’ve always had a go get it attitude, having the confidence that I could do whatever I set my mind to. I learned early how to survive, support myself, and now my family. But, I’ve only ever been in competition with myself. I have always strived to be better today than yesterday, and better tomorrow than today, but content at the same time. For the most part I have been happy in life, and somewhat successful in my feild of expertise.
Overall, my most cherished accomplishment is my family, they are all very special to me. One of my sons also tested as INFJ, and carries those traits as well. He is also very well rounded, with the same characteristics.
So with that, I don’t believe that all INFJs come from narcissistic families, having been molded into who they are or have become, because of the treatment they received while growing up. However, being me has been tough at times, but has not necessarily changed who I am at the core. Being misunderstood while having good intentions, and being betrayed or taken advantage of often while being naive, especially when younger, has had the most adverse effect on my life. I always thought everyone had my best interest at heart, the same as I did theirs. But since learning that I’m INFJ, it all makes more sense and has helped me tremendously. I’m now more careful, but not guarded. I’ve also been able to help my son understand some things earlier in life. Hopefully that helps him navigate problem areas quicker.
Sorry for the long reply, but thanks for allowing me to share. I just hope this may help someone understand another side and perspective of a different type of INFJ. If it means anything, I also have tested and relate most to enneagram type 8. More closely to 8w7 when I was younger, and more now with 8w9.
Thanks for your time, research, and content! I enjoy learning more about various types, of our same type. Cheers, from USA!
Think we often have a tendency to project our own positive traits onto others. We are well-intentioned, hopeful, give the benefit of the doubt, and desire to see others in a positive light. We see the potential in others.
Absolutely, well stated! I also see potential in everyone and everything, and am very optimistic about positive results. Sadly, sometimes that backfires.
Hi Ren,
I don't think we should call them "good enough," INFJs since it seems rude. Now I could be wrong in thinking this way, but words "stagnant," "self actualized," or "contented" popped into my mind when you were talking about them. Mainly because of what you said that they don't feel the need to reach out but also have a healthy holistic mind of INFJs.
Sorry if I'm way out of line of thought with this though, hope your day goes well.
@@c.lstrife It isn’t an appropriate name for a serious work. But this might be useful context: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_enough_parent
@RensRoom Oh no, I already understood the context. I was just simply putting my own two senses in there from another perspective, is all. Sorry for the confusion and misunderstanding.
Enjoyed this video thanks Ren. I wonder if this new subtype could be called the ‘integrated INFJ’.
I'm thinking, wouldn't that apply better to the spiritualised INFJ?
@ yes good point. Integration for the spiritualised INFJ⭐️
I am torn. I remember that I was very much in peace with myself and the world as a child. When I hit puberty, there was some bullying and I went straight to solipsistic mode. It took few years to get over but by the time I was 18 I was in peace with myself again. I never felt a strong need to adapt to social norms or felt that external reality was particularly hostile (outside bullying experience). On the other hand alienation is a concept that feels very relatable. I still do a lot of self reflection and hang out in communities like this. Low anxiety. I am both confident in my high value and respect I get from my team at work, my input and vision is very sought after. But I still occasionally struggle with imposter syndrome. It is possible to do simultaneously.
An idea. With each purchase of your books, offer a one month free subscription to your Patreon site.
I think that the kind of INFJ that is most applicable to me would be this one, although I am more leaning towards the solipsis end of the spectrum. I wouldn't say that I have that much self esteem but I do have a lot of confidence when it comes towards trying new things and tackling hard problems. I think the low self esteem has to do with this concept of alienation because Ni-Ti makes it so what it is supposed to be what I am murky
What do you think are indications that your self-esteem isn't that solid?
@@RensRoom There are a lot of times where I think that I wouldn't be accepted or liked by much people who have never met me before, mainly because of the internal dissonance that I have with most things about myself (internal dissonance in the sense that the ego isn’t consolidated as one thing, but more though that it encompasses the entirety of human experience, so identifying what truly is my own and what is external is hard to put down)
Good Enough! ha! embrace it!
@@francisjudge Good enough would be good enough for me!
I think that 2 things are at work here - how we value ourselves in terms of potential and how we judge ourselves based on our achievements or the lack thereof. Both can be an issue. Potential is a concept which I believe is especially important for INFJs. We tend to want to achieve significant things, but often the awareness of INFJ potential is not there (in part of whole). But this is a dynamic situation, because if we are aware of a high potential but have failed to manifest anywhere close to potential, this will affect our self esteem. So an INFJ with lower awareness of potential could have greater confidence with less achievement. But in both cases, the need to achieve and be admired/loved are still there to minimise alienation.
I feel this… seeing your potential and falling so short. It’s painful.
This is very interesting. Especially the thought that these people can be more common, just not represented online.
My mind connected this to enneagram and wondered if these Infjs cannot be 6. As an infj, enneagram 6, I struggle with a lot of fears, especially relationally. I can’t imagine how wonderful it would be to experience this type of freedom.
Do you suspect their enneagram is different? Or is it more a nature/nurture issue kind of like you talked about in yesterday’s video?
@@jessicahunt3175 I think you’re on the money Jessica. Spiritual INFJs are most likely not 6s enneagram-wise. Just in the sense that fear and security seeking are not pervasive components of their relation to the world.
It's been a while since I've studied the Enneagram types, but as someone who suspects myself to be said INFJ subtype, I just wanted to say that I can quite confidently place myself as a 5w4 (sx instinctual subtype).
Interesting. I would be really curious to see if any self-identified spiritual INFJs are 6s. I don't think we will see many cases of that. 5 sounds more likely, or 4, 9, 1, etc.
I must be an INFJ.
I have the same pictures on my wall as you do.
How interesting, a spiritual INFJ, which is different than a spiritualized INFJ. To me it almost sounds like an individual who has not been kicked out of “Religion Eden”, where the current religious practices of today, still hold power to be able to stave off or contain some of the powers that exist within the psyche. It seems like someone who would not have as much existential tension, and fewer existential questions overall, thus able to just “get on with life”. (As someone who feels like my culture’s religion doesn’t capture or grab me enough, I actually feel envious of those whose religion really works for them)
I have also never really separated the ideas of self-confidence from self-esteem, so that is an interesting way to think about it. I have read somewhere that our self-esteem is typically related to the perceived gap between our own internalized ideal self-image, versus feedback we get from our environment. Perhaps self-confidence has less to do with self-reflection, and more about just doing and the results of doing?
Perhaps self-esteem is also more tied into identity, or our current sense of self… which may or may not have sudden paradigm shifts through our growth and development and our changing relationships with others?
Now (my Ne) wonders about those who easily get on with life and are full of self-confidence, then suddenly have a midlife crisis… like some kid of reevaluation of identity and purpose.
@@VeggieJohnx2 There are different psychoanalytic interpretations of self-esteem and its basis, but you are right that it is connected to the proximity (or distance) between the ego and the ego ideal. I can do a video about this specific topic at some point if you’d like. I’ve also gone in depth about these, also in relation to guilt and shame, in a patron exclusive video.
@ A video about ego and ego ideal might be interesting. Perhaps a video relating the self-esteem of each of the subtypes? Can one still have solid self-esteem outside of the more balanced spiritualized INFJ type? Do the personal ego ideals , or goals of each type differ, or perhaps even change as we vacillate between states, circumstance, development? Or awareness? (I personally think of ego ideal as some kind of inner calling that we try to find a way to align with if possible, but perhaps that is a very Introverted perspective. I find I really admire people who seem to really be in their element.)
Quite curiously, I feel like I am a spiritual INFJ, despite being an athiest and having lots of existential dread about the nature of death. This idea of a "Religion Eden" sounds foreign to me, unless you would consider my INFJ worldview to be its own religion. Which, now that I say it out loud, seems like something it could very well function as. An interesting topic for further discussion, perhaps.
I have never sought MBTI content intentionally, let alone INFJ stuff. RUclips just suggests me stuff that is not even close to my sphere of interest, like 65% of what is suggested to me, despite me using the tools to declare videos as "not interested" or block channels. This leads me to believe there is a degree of manipulative curation to youtube much like facebook was discovered to do for research purposes on influencing human affect.
I only watch stuff because I like to see the types of conclusions that can only be reached by narrowmindedness, aka "expertise". Sometimes the ideas presented are great, and I might have never reached those conclusions on my own. Sometimes the ideas only make sense when you exclude other aspects of reality in the pursuit of specialization. This is the reason generalists make the largest shifts in culture and science, not the specialists.
Suspect you might need to keep thinking of alternative labels, if only to avoid confusion 😀
Hmm, reading some comments and cannot resist but to make a post, ah! I actually really like the label "Not-good-enough INFJ" and why not consider using it in serious research? As Ren pointed out, a similar term has already been used in psychology / psychoanalysis, in reference to healthy parenting. Using such label could attract the attention of people in related fields. But even beyond that, isn't it a good term if it precisely conveys the message? It is an interesting concept to be "good enough." It feels almost unacceptable, which makes it so fascinating and attention-grabbing. Could it be that some of us are trapped in the pursuit of perfection, and that's what blocks further progress? Perhaps it's true that this may sound rude to some, but I say - if that is the case then that may be a good thing! It's like a jolt, it can make people think. Personally, I say: bring it on! Be rude to me if that helps. (half kidding here).
My view is that the "good enough INFJ" is really insightful psychologically as a phrase if you know the background; but it's just likely to be misinterpreted by newcomers or people unfamiliar with said background. If/when I write my next book on the INFJ, I might well introduce the term there.
I was thinking could there be a subtype of INFJ who is confident and very much in the world, but not living their authentic INFJ personality. They are trying to fit in but not in ideal ways. They see their ‘differences’ as quirks and simply act in more SJ ways. So not enlightened not a/s or solipsistic. I think such an INFJ would be quite tragic really.
I think what you're describing is a small subset of the adaptive-submissive INFJ (by the way: I am thinking of gradually changing the name to Compliant INFJ - let me know your thoughts). It is possible for an INFJ to achieve very proficient basic adaptation to an environment, such that it confers a real increase in confidence. But my view is that this confidence would remain ultimately superficial and easy to rattle. Perhaps this is the existentialist in me but I do not believe that living inauthentically is compatible with genuinely healthy self-esteem/a well-built ego.
Yes I agree, it probably does fall under adaptive submissive since it’s a rejection of Ni. As for the name, I think of it as inherently submissive or unawakened. But the latter term already has embedded meanings. It boils down to not recognising their differences as advantageous or beneficial. The reasons could be a lack of understanding or a fear of the challenges which come with standing up and being what you were meant to be. We shouldn’t judge INFJs hard for finding this hard. Solipsistic INFJ mode at least recognises the differences more but lacks the belief that they could work positively within the SJ world, and thus gives up in a different way.
I totally agree that living authentically is key for happiness and self esteem etc. INFJ struggle with that in some ways, even though they crave authenticity in others via Fi critic.
Which type do you think is more detached from reality infj or infp?
I wonder if age plays a role, but my 18 yr old is an infp and oh… does she live in the clouds. Much more than me.
But my Se is so weak.
@@omarhassan4709 INFJ. INFPs daydream, INFJs dream in an alien language. : )
Just saying. But self esteem and self confidence are indeed the same. Reasoning being, confidence is literally in the definition of self esteem. You can't have one without the other. The more you have value or esteem within, the more confident you'll be able to express outward.
Okay, you have to fight one of top MMA fighters, how confident you feel about it?
@fuzonzord9301 That depends on YOUR self worth/esteem, & value. Your belief in your skill set & abilities justifies your self esteem, which then directly influences your confidence. Simple.
@@cacheknock Makes no sense.
@@fuzonzord9301 How not? Do you know the definition of self esteem?
Hmm… So what about people who are outwardly very self-confident in the things that they do, and yet obviously have a very weak sense of self? There exists territory that gets them very touchy and hyper-reactive if you go there.
spiritual INFJs just chills
@@endo4682 There’s a depth of insight in what you said actually. In the sense that I think one difference between spiritual and spiritualized is that the latter, because they’ve been through the stages of adaptive submission and solipsism, actually have more revolutionary potential - more of an inner drive to change the world.
Are they not already called healthy INFJs?
This reminds me of a distinction between mentally healthy and flourishing (vs. languishing) in positive psychology. Many people are mentally healthy but most are not flourishing; instead, most tend to languish (e.g., see Dr. Dan P. Brown’s discussions on this). I wonder if a similar analogy could apply here, where one is healthy in the sense of continuing the journey towards spiritualization instead of the opposite direction haha :) (Can that happen btw? Can we stagnate or go back in development? I guess so.)
@@espressocoffeeshine4346 There’s truth to this, but the reason why I wouldn’t call them that is psychological health is really a continuum and I don’t think it’s particularly informative to draw a simple distinction between healthy and unhealthy INFJs.
I'm thinking people like Zendaya, Matthew Hussay, Marina Diamandis, Simon Sinek and Viola Davis might be spiritualized INFJs. And they inspire me sooo deeply ❤
I grew up around xSFxs and my Ni was chastised by them, because I brought up topics that made their suppressed sides and volatile egos very deeply uncomfortable. But later as I got to meet more and more N types, my Ni had something of renaissance and the excessive people-plessing is now reduced to very occasional brief moments.
But I have always had an interest in psychology and the esoterica and since I started dedicating 80% of my free time to them, I grew to be so much more myself and my confidence levels have risen.
My conclusion is that being around other N types (I have all types of NTs and NFs in my inner circle) has helped me develope better Fi, better Te, stronger Ti and Ne and that's one of the best things that have happened to me. Of course, I have met some deeply unhealthy N types, most of them were INTJs, but I have learned a lot from them, too, even though it was mostly negative.
You know, they say that had we not gone through all the hurdles we have dealt with, we would be very different people. I don't think that would've been my case. If I didn't have to spend so many years and energy panicking about my emotional, mental and sometimes even physical safety, battling crippling perfectionism and anxiety, I would have dedicated my energy to studying the things that I have wanted and I would've achieved so much more and been able to help many more people. And I've always been very driven and highly curious. But who knows. I might well be wrong.
OMG dude....let me spell it out for you...
but first...QUESTION....
HOW DO YOU KNOW?????....
your not spiritualised????....
and you know no INFJs that are spiritualised....
sooooo....
how are you getting your information???....
the same way anyone else can...
tell me i'm lyin....🤨
(i wont hold my breath...)
Ni....
Si/Se.....
COMPLETE OPPOSITES.
let me say it again incase...
COMPLETE OPPOSITES.
Si/Se(or any other funcion for that matter) CANNOT QUANTIFY what Ni is. PERIOD. ONLY Spiritualised INFJs(such as myself) truly know what its like.
(and I PERSONALLY...KNOW that...through EXPERIENCE)
I mean, do ya'll go to the the donut shop to buy tires????....
MAYbe...