yall remember when some guy on twitter thought throw loops were removed in a patch and it got a million views and everyone was celebrating but he just mistimed it?
Yes, I think it was the Ed patch. I think people were playing a demo at capcup or something. I just remember it was a Capcom sponsored event or something, hence why people got to try out the Ed patch.
@kelvin303 I appreciate your honesty. Still playing/enjoying sfv, champion edition has more personality, better music/stages and more interesting characters in the roster. I've only played the sf6 demo and I'm still waiting for my fav characters that I play and love to watch. I mean, where's Sagat, Gill/Urien, Birdie, Vega/Claw, Dan, Oro?
Throw loops have always been dumb. Even from a visual stand point watching a dude walk into the corner and throw a guy over and over again looks ridiculous.
@@Woody-Tv-13never heard of the term nugget used in 3rd strike , there aren't even throw loops in 3rd strike , i guess if you're keep getting thrown when there aren't throw loops you are a nugget lol
Not really. When we saw Xiaohai do it to Kusanagi we didn't really care. Actually, people started getting hyped about it. They wanted to see if he was willing to take it all the way. And same thing with Kusanagi. He did like 6 throws in a row and people were just popping off. I think it's so dank that instead of getting upset about it, people embrace it, for the culture I guess you could say. It's mostly a sign of disrespect and that's what fgc thrives off of - a story
@@itsmesteve1081very few people embrace it and force it upon others. There are people who dislike aspects of SF6 and there are the defenders of the game who want to silence and discredit anyone who dislikes sf6. That's not going to help the game in the long run.
I can't say I agree that the design discourages growth. I got the game July 19th in 2023 when I got back from deployment. I hit master the week before evo that year. I was stuck around 1600 MR for a while, but as of 2 days ago, I hit 1800MR MR. That only happened because I labbed, and I learned. *I* wanted to get better. The self improvement is a personal goal. And if a game is more complex, it can discourage progression rather than encourage it. True competitive gamers are a different breed, and we will still thrive no matter if the game is viewed as easy or hard so long as we like the game.
The art of fighting game making went through a whole journey where the earlier games started raw, then got a stable base of mechanics, then were getting more and more refined in a way that made them more complex. That second stage was simply fated to hit a kind of limit, where crossing that line would only make the games too complex and less attractive to new players, and reinforce the niche nature of the genre.
And the games would be threatened financially going that way, since the arcades were going down. So it was very obvious that the genre couldn't just be getting gradually more complex in every sequel. There is even people who argue that the "limit" was already crossed with games like MvC2, 3S, SFA3, CvS2, KOF 02, GG in general, etc... These "try hard" games that shaped a generation of players. The fact is that people are nostalgic about that period, and the more immature part of those old players are unable to judge the situation correctly... but the genre was doing very poorly over most of the 00s. And now every single active classic franchise is doing better financially than in the 90s and 00s. Some of them are too nostalgic about the old fgc events, the 00s Evo, to bother looking outside that niche bubble of their community and understand that the genre was in a bad state in most of the 00s (except few 3d games TK5 and SC2).
Or how people always say "just dp, or drive reversal it", but human reactions can only do so much lol. Back in sf4 when they made dp fadc "punishable", hardly anyone ever did. Not to say these things don't happen, but not every time.
@@chimpmasterflex Not to mention that most DRC blockstrings end up with you forced to block like 2 or 3 moves before you can DP or reversal, so you basically end up spending a bar on blocking + 2 for the reversal, so you've spent just as much as the guy doing mindless DRC, except you basically don't get any reward for it. You're basically losing the interaction even if you land the reversal.
I would be fine with everyone requiring Drive Rush to loop a meaty throw after a forward throw in the corner. That would keep the option in play but at a cost. Having more pushback and less looping knockdown pressure specifically in corner would be good. The offense would still be in a dominant spot since they'd be in prime spacing to antiair jump outs, while also removing meterless loops and eliminating some checkmate scenarios during burnout. I also like kizzie's idea of making jailing more expensive if it stays in at all. Though i think they could also experiment with drive gauge recovery being delayed for longer if a normal is drive rush cancelled on block, making long term gauge cost for jailing more expensive over time of a round.
I remember reading somewhere that the reason why low forward into drive rush is not confirmable (or ridiculously difficult to do consistently) is because the meta of SF5 being "low medium confirm - the game". Now there are still low forwards, but now you cant just confirm 100% of the time, so offense is more "difficult" in a sense. Although it would be nice if they did remove the jailing like what kizzie suggested to make it not as easy to get pressure off it
There are too many matchups that devolve into 1 neutral interaction into a corner carry combo, and then just guess for game in the corner. It's frustrating that most matchups play out like that. I would like a longer and more engaging neutral than what we currently have. I think there is just way too much neutral skip/drive rush, and honestly, anyone can get caught by it, which leads to too many upsets.
Drive Rush just needs to be easier to check. Some characters have these skibidi buttons that are impossible to punish even if your timing is on point. Getting hit out of drive rush should be an automatic counter, and getting a button checked out of drive Rush should be an automatic Punish Counter. I also think whatever button you use to hit a character out of drive Rush should have no scaling into the next hit. Anything to distinctivize/add risk to neutral skips a bit.
You can’t really have a unique play style, & Drive Rush is the name of the game. The rest of the Drive abilities are so underpowered compared to it. Drive Rush to skip neutral, oki after any knockdown, etc.
@@KARS215 Saying you can't have a unique play style is so wrong it's insane. I can watch 3 top level kens play and tell you who they are based on how they play because they have such different styles. You couldn't do that in SFV. Just because drive rush is something everyone has to utilise doesn't mean there aren't tons of unique ways people play their characters.
I got called a convo baiter and unintelligent apparently for suggesting the drive rush spend should be reversed for during neutral and post confirm. If the neutral drive rush spend got increased to 3 bars, then it would basically make for a more engaging neutral, as people would no longer be able to spam it. Reduce hit confirm DR spend to 1 -1.5x bars for better combo extensions so that when there is finally a hit confirm, the game's momentum swing and tempo really picks up. At the moment the game is just spam neutral DR. guaranteed knock down and then it's not even a 50/50 guessing game, the mental stack is insane. The neutral DR just skews the character balance right now, the faster characters are even faster and the more powerful characters are still fast enough to overpower you in ways they shouldn't really be able to. Zangief having DR for example is just wild.
@@Longlostpuss That change would break almost every juggle combo in the game, and wouldn't extend ground combos enough to make up for it. The juggle system of the game is entirely built around drive rush normals having +3 juggle count and not incrementing the juggle counter, and most aren't DRCs because the normals involves aren't always cancelable.
If they could find a way to increase the risk for the person throwing, I think it would help a lot. Adding some recovery so backdashing leads to reliable punishes, even mid-screen, or so it at least puts jumping more on the table. Even something like increasing how far you're pushed apart after a tech. We have too many advancing normals, that already would have great reach without that part, which just space you there after a tech. Idk, for me at least, seeing a pro eat 2-6 throws in a row, every other match is anti-hype. We can have some crazy close set, that ends with a blowout, cause someone got cornered, thrown 3 times, gets shimmied and dies. Outside of a match with tons of dropped combos, that is pretty much the last way I wanna see a match end.
Noone likes throwloops, everyone has said throwloops need to go since even before launch, it's the most anti-hype thing to watch and STILL they refuse to listen.
@@LLL74123 That's a good point. It indeeds looks concerning that the devs haven't done anything serious about this, though it's a complaint since SF5. And it's ok that the current devs didn't fix it in SF5, as it's Ono's game and they just came in the end to replace him... But now SF6 is a game totally planned by them, and they chose to do it, despite the complaints.
@@ADreamingTraveler Throw loops just need to be like SF5 where there's a gap they get beaten by mashing a 4 frame. The reality is, throw loops need to stay in the game until they change drive parry. I think people focus on drive rush way too much when the biggest problems I believe all relate to drive parry. Like what was said in the video, just make low forward DR into LP punishable by reversals and drive rush is pretty fine. Drive parry removes left/right and low/high mixups. Because of how strong it is, throw loops need to be in the game as an equaliser to the insanely powerful drive parry. There are a few things they can do to drive parry: 1. Put left/right and low/high mix ups back in. Basically you still have to parry in the correct direction and low/high or else you get hit. 2. Because of the above, make parry give bigger push back. This means the defender gets rewarded by getting out of the pressure faster when defending correctly. 3. Heavily reduce or completely remove the slow down on perfect parry when used on normals. I think these 3 changes to drive parry will make parry "balanced"
I like how in KOF its handled since a long time ago, after you wake up theres a 7 or 9 frame window of throw invincibility and also after any blockstun or hitstun, so if your opponent does a throw it will whiff, so they can't meaty a throw there, they have to wait a little bit so in KOF you get thrown is because you specfically decided to hold back and block, also because there's proximity throws if they try to meaty a throw a normal will come out instead
I propose changes to the current grab system, suggesting it be modeled after the Capcom vs. SNK 2 mechanics. In that system, the HP + forward input had a bit of range and a 9-frame start-up, while HK + forward had a much shorter range but a 6-frame start-up. Additionally, I recommend slightly increasing both block stun and hit stun durations. Grabs should also result in a hard knockdown. These adjustments could eliminate throw loops and other issues. Furthermore, implementing a guard crush system similar to that of Street Fighter: Alpha 3 would enhance gameplay. Finally, Drive-Reversals should be made safe on block and invincible to hits and grabs. Also they should implement options for wake-up, like for example giving Delayed Get-up, Quick Get-up, and Normal Get-up.
give all characters X frames of throw invul on wake up BUT if they Parry they lose all throw invul so if they decide to wake tap parry they are subject to throw but if they wake up block the are safe from immediate/meaty walk up throw
Adding more recovery frames to whiffing throws incentivize the desire to back dash and it actually be able to punish under more circumstances. Thats all they have to do.
I was literally thinking this exact same thing. So many suggestions people come up with would cause so many more problems than they would solve, but simply adding more recovery frames to a whiffed throw would make a throwloop-attempt punishable on back-dash/neutral jump/forward jump. That way throwloop/meaty/shimmy pressure can still exist (as well it should imo), but makes it so that every option can be actively punished if read properly WITHOUT the need for spending resources. It's a simple solution that doesn't drastically shift any other dynamic of the game. In my mind it shouldn't be about removing throwloops entirely as so many suggest. It should be about adding more risk to throwlooping incorrectly.
@@VermillionMonk EXACTLY. I swear you’re the first person to have an intuitive explanation and understanding on balancing a mechanic I’ve seen so far other than Broski. Stay the course we need you out here. Lol
@@bloodmoon920 I've got a big passion for game design so tackling balancing/design issues like these is kinda my jam, especially considering that SF6 has inspired to make my own fighting game as a project in the future.
I feel the Drive Rush OS should be taken away. That doing c. MK/MP on whiff while doing DR and doesn't come out unless it connects, should be gone. Make the DR come out regardless and have the waste the 3 bars, force them to put more thought into it.
Throw loops should only be possible off Drive Rush imo. If you simply walk forward, you should be able to meaty them and not throw them. That makes going for throw slightly more risky if the opponent does not wake up parry, but I feel like that creates a good mind games and doesn't just feel helpless on defense. And wake up parry is not even perfect anyway, you could time your meaties to hit on frame 3 or 4 of wakeup and bypass the perfect parry completely. Or on defense if you read that delayed meaty, you can delay perfect parry. That would add so much granularity to offense in the corner
Throw loop type 1: No DR, Able to shimmy without back dash Throw loop type 2: No DR, Able to shimmy but only with backlash (lose to any buttons) Throw loop type 3: Need drive rush If you have type 1, +1. Have OD invincible as well? +1, Crouch MK cancel? +1, Fire ball? +1
You can approach this a couple different ways, Make normal throw put characters further away and make drive reversal knock characters futher away with slightly more wake up recovery on knockdown... basically to a point where it resets neutral
I just want diminishing returns on damage for back to back throws, so if you throw loop you'll gradually do way less damage, and get rewarded for mixing in other things with throws being back to max damage.
@@yamsSMPi don't think you understood his comment , he's saying each sequential throw would do less and less damage , so if you take the throw you win more so than currently, exactly opposite of what you're saying
If delayed throw tech didn’t work and you had to eat a three way mixup between strike/throw/shimmy every time, I think throw loops would be a problem. As is, I personally think it’s okay. Throws really don’t do that much damage, it’s just frustrating to get hit by repeatedly
I can't tell if they're gonna give us 2nd super/vtrigger/etc. or a new system mechanic this time around for the first major game rebalance. You know they have to be cooking up something for Y3 or Y4. Almost all the gripes are "new system" issues that are now very obvious apart from some specific S tiers we all know are a bit over tuned and low tiers that are undertuned. I think they're close to cracking the code on what they need to change and how. I hope with 4mil copies sold in a little over a year and how conservative the updates have been compared to SFV, capcom has to be looking to keep that momentum up. We need something to give the "30 minute breakdown" to pair with the "5 minute breakdown" If it can have both of those I think this will be a tough to topple GOAT in the FGC.
iDom chose to play one of the weakest character in the game, for some reason, and he has always been complaining about Street Fighter (and yet, he keeps playing it) 🤷♂
What about a perfect throw break similar to perfect parry. If someone breaks your throw at the same time you do it (so no delay tech) you get a special animation and advantage on the break where you can attack first and put them on the defensive for being predictable with the throw.
The way I see it there's 2 things that are unhealthy about this game. The tournament format that discourages pro players from travelling and doesn't reward consistency, and the fanbase. Reading some of the suggestion here to "fix" it and dear God, the fanbase would run this game into the ground into record time. As iDom said it, SF6 is a game about resource management. Neutral and execution helps, but it's not what wins you the match. And for this goal, the game is fine. If you don't like this design philosophy, that's fair. Just know that changing it would make the game better for _you_ and not healthier in any sense of the word.
Wanna jump off of this point because I completely agree. Neutral, footsies, execution, all of that has been a staple of Street Fighter since SF2, and even to now - but they've never been the only things that incorporate the meta. SF2 was about finding characters that either bypassed the neutral completely (Boxer, Claw), or completely invaded it (Ryu, Sagat). The Alpha series had those aspects, but with things like air blocking and the various uses of Super Meter added, it also diminished the importance of those skills. And don't get me started on Alpha 3. SF3 had the parry, and there's nothing I can say here that hasn't been said a thousand times before. SF4 was pretty close, especially with the execution barrier of the one frame links, but it wasn't the whole world; Focus Attacks were literally designed as a direct counter to neutral and footsies by letting you steal turns back. It was a lot more than just canceling out into doing bigger combos. SF5 - and I'll be fair and only mention late SF5 - was almost about that, too. The problem was how explosive that game was with its damage and the low barrier of entry that the execution was... which is a little ironic considering some of the complaints about SF6 at the moment. You pretty much got the same return as a Drive Rush cancel in SF6 off of a basic low forward starter with some characters. I have nothing but respect for iDom, and I mean that, it's not a backhanded statement. I think his problem with SF6 at the moment is that it's not SF5. The character he played as, Laura, had a lot of trapping options and rush-in footsie tools that allowed her to gain monstrous momentum compared to a lot of the cast... and this is SF5 we're talking about. Thing is, in a game like SF6, everyone's like that due to the Drive mechanics. And if everyone gets to be Laura, that means no one gets to be Laura. So I don't know. I love iDom, and I think he has it in him as a competitor to really come back around and start placing in Top 8's reliably again. It's just a little hard to hear someone criticize SF6 when they pick a character, Manon, who isn't on the meta to really play SF6. He's sitting and waiting for a patch to come in to let her play SF6 instead of picking a character that means to his strengths that also plays SF6. Instead, he's still playing SF5. And even if he's in the conversation for being the top 5 best players in the world at SF5 - which he is, in my opinion - he's still choosing to pick a character that doesn't play the same game as everyone else.
@@yhposolihP Great points! I'd argue Idom especially doesn't like this game BECAUSE his character doesn't get the Meta defining trait of Cr.Mk > DRC. Also Manon's Drive Rush is notorious for being the shortest and slowest in the game, meaning he can't utilize anything the Meta has to offer. Despite these mechanics being rather overbearing, no one else complains about them to the level that Idom has and I imagine it's because a majority of the cast, and their player base, is utilizing the same meta. Where as a select few characters are not.
@@yhposolihP Yup, agree with every point there. I'll add that iDom was also my favorite player to watch in SFV. His signature "2 frame jab" made things unpredictable and fun to watch. He showed that even more important than having good fundamentals is knowing when to _not_ apply said fundamentals. On top of him playing Manon (which is one of the worst characters to use the system mechanics of a system mechanics oriented game), I also think the damage in SF6 being even higher than SFV heavily incentivizes players to be risk averse. In SFV there were only a few characters who could completely delete you off a bad abare, in 6 it's everyone that has 2+ super bars and isn't in burnout. For a player like iDom, this really must feel like shackles. I think his ECT run proved that there is a winning strategy there, but I don't doubt it feels frustrating. I just wish he was less "game sucks" whenever he voices said frustrations, lol.
Hard knockdown on throws means you have enough frame advantage to have more oki options like safe jumps. This in turn can lead to ambiguous crossups, which he says would not be too strong because parry does not care about which side your opponent is. This on top of the throw protection on wakeup he mentioned (no more meaty throws) might lead to more layered offense rather than binary strike/throw decisions.
I just need to say one thing. TURNING Throws into a hard knockdown aka "turning the game into street fighter 4" IS NOT A BAD THING. Throw loops need to be adjusted/removed. Street Fighter 4 is easily one of the best titles in the franchise. Look at what it did for the FGC. You can't deny it. Throw loops and The high damage output should be adjusted. right now the game is only 50% of what street fighter is supposed to be. I said what I said.
I remember starting on CVS2 just learning about inputs and then playing a different bunch of fighting games over the years and I can say SF6 is definitely the easiest to get into from my experience
What about letting you to throw tech with jab but you get worse frame advantage if you tech that way? but also in return you get better frame advantage if you tech the regular way (with throw), maybe neutral or barely plus so you get a chance to steal a turn for teching with throw instead of jab which would be the riskier option but more rewarding while at the same time because its riskier you get blown up for it if they guess that option, if they sucessfuly throw you then that means you especifically decided to block and in that the one doing the throw should have the same advantage that they have right now Kinda like granblue, if they shimmy you and you tech with jab , they have to block the crouch jab, forcing players to shimmy much further away or not being able to shimmy, they may still be able shimmy you and punish you but not on reaction because the jab is too fast compared to the throw animation, they would have to make the read and commit to the punish and hit confirm or commit to waiting to see the throw, at the low level if they are just mashing not knowing what they are doing then they will get punished that way everytime, they just won't get away with teching that way. just a way to make shimmy and throws weaker with a fair disadvantage for going for it all the time or screw it, let the game allow you to tech with any attack so doing the shimmy is even more scary, imagine if they tech with crouch medium kick, but remember, if you tech that way , it's the opponent's turn still, seems fair to me.
5:35-5:47 This is the reason I don't care whether or not they keep the throw loops. When you remember that modern fighting games need to consider EASY accessibility to be sure to bring in a new audience that sticks around it isn't hard to imagine why they would keep decisions that the hard-core audience is not in favor of
My personal opinion in fighting games is throws should not give good oki. Games are just better IMO when that is not the case. Spamming the wake-up guessing game isn’t compelling gameplay
@@adriandenton6637what you mean sf5 had SF5 Arcade edition. It’ll he some huge patch later on that redefines the mechanics in a couple years basically “super street fighter 6 or Arcade edition”
@@adriandenton6637yeah I didn’t mention it having a price, i’m just saying they are saving the big updates for that big rebrand Super or Arcade. Thats all
@@Father2ALegacy Ok fair enough, but people spent about 7 years bashing capcom for ripping people off for an update and a rebranding, which got very boring.
Kizzie is godlike but imo he got some sorta headass takes LOL. You can remove throw loop but a lot of things need to change for that to work or it REALLY becomes “tap parry Fighter”. If cr MK drive rush didn’t jail I agree with Idom that the game would CRAWL man it would be wild - keep in mind they removed plus frames out of the game compared to SFV. The idea Capcom “didn’t think about the offense” - not at all - they DID think about it and this is what they came up with. It’s great for new players, but the trade off is that it’s a little more shallow. Also cmon man hard knockdown? These kids ain’t ready for the SF4 vortex.
You know, there are characters in the game without throw loops and their matches seems OK from my point of view (Chun-Li for example). My opinion is: Equalize everybody, no more throw loops.
I think what you said about LF dr is good. My thing is I think LF dr should not be plus on block but on hit its way more plus. It will force People to stop aimlessly doing it and each person will have to react both ways. It’s just to easy for anyone to
There were leaks that showed Capcom had plans for a Super and Ultra version of Street FIghter 6 in the future. Hopefully they add new mechanics that give the game extra depth in future updates and also get rid of throw loops
No. Just like alpha 3 guard crush. Eat poo from my pressure. Though a whole burnout sesh hurts a bit more than a guard crush. Sometimes you're not successfully blocking though. I can observe you ain't pressing buttons and I'll keep using heavies to guard crush or break your meter.
@@noBody-ue6cssome characters have much better pressure and better defensive options, though. If you're going to lose meter by blocking, the amount should be dependant on who is applying that pressure. Zangief and female zangief should take more off per block than say, rashid.
Regarding left/right mix-ups. What if Capcom made the input for parry the same as SF3, and rejigged the drive rush mechanic/inputs to compensate. Or perhaps they keep it as hold MP+MK but parry only comes out if the player also taps or holds forward?
iDom doesn't like SF6 in general because he doesnt like the mechanics, thus he is not winning. Or vice-versa, he is not winning thus not enjoying the game. Either way, SF6 is just not for iDom. Maybe picking a different character that provides better winning chances change that but we will never know. Also, Gief's meta does not require the corner or throw loops. Just the fear of SPD and headbutt. This is a horrible discussion. There is a lot of "anti" but no solid alternative. Remove throw loops. Then what? IDom should just stop playing SF6. He seems miserable. This is iDom of SF5 wanting SF5 in an SF6 world.
I still haven’t fully committed to SF6. Throw loops are annoying, drive rush is in my opinion an annoying gimmick. I never like the gimmicks. I loved SF4 but hated focus attacks, I hated the whatever the gimmick was in SF5. Oh the V-trigger. I wish we could have another 3rd Strike. I keep saying this and I will continue to do so.
They could literally just remake SF:4, quality of life and graphics it up and I'd play again. This just doesn't have it like 5 didn't have it. 4 had it the most, 2 had it enough and 3 was almost as good as 4.
@@problemsnearyou8899 that’s why I said Overly. Combined with DI, DR, DR grab or DR normal, and jump ins, while trying to figure out what your opponent is doing is overwhelming.
@@ShinOwen2 honestly the more I’ve been playing, the less stressful drive rush feels like . The second a knock down occurs on me, I always judge if they’re going to DR from that distance & is it safe for them to do so . I think idom described it perfectly that once you learn the ins & outs of the drive system as a whole, the game slows down a lot . It’s still fast but it isn’t overwhelming
@ShinOwen2 sf4 also greatly rewarded you for getting your butt kicked thru the Ultra meter. And it was also overly strong in defensive tech to the point that you needed multiple OS's to make maintaining offensive pressure somewhat bearable. The pendulum just swung towards the other direction. Pretty much all of the mainstream fighters since the mid 2000s have tried to make things more accessible and it leads to these metas. It was just that SF4 and Tekken 6 and others tried to make things more lenient and also gave the losing player more tools to comeback like Ultra and Rage, while more recent titles like sf6 and tekken 8 reward aggressive offensive from the start thru Drive Rush and Heat.
Idom is someone who once said that Kusanagi only won because of throwloop even though xiaohai used also throwloop to reset the bracket. I don’t take this guy seriously.
So many things I disagree with this video. So you say that there's no skill ceiling after you pass the noob state? This has to be a joke. The usual suspects always top 8ed while the competition is fierce and way broader than ever before. internet has every information about everything too! Sf6 resource management is really hard to be consistent too! Its really a joke to argue that after a certain early state you can't distinct the best players from the simply good ones. There are a lot of high lvl stuff in sf6!
Kinda wild how the Tekken bros and the SF guys are complaining about the same thing in a different package. Maybe Capcom and BamCo should not be basically co-developing their fighting games. No more hanging out after work together either.
Idom has been pitching about sf6 ever since he drowned in pools in the first tournament he entered punk was right guys a fraud. With no laura to force 50 50s in the middle of the screen with v trigger he sucks.
Kinda sucks that nothing positive was really said about the game here lol. If only tekken or city of the wolves could have capcom netcode…and playerbase 😅
The only change I would really love to see is for a buffered normal into drive rush cancel to eat like at least a bar of drive gauge on whiff. Maybe 1.5. The risk reward is so skewed when you can just mash it and buffer it without any consequences
Buffered dr from normal won't come out unless it's a light punch or light kick . They should make every normal buffered into dr like that too , if you don't connect you lose 3 bars , shit is stupid currently
Flashy like SF5, or Complex like SF3. And SF5 is among the top 3 best selling titles... and SF3 killed SF, killed all of Capcom's faith in 2d fgs, leading to a 5+ years break in fg production after CvS2. Since Capcom makes commercial products I can understand their decisions.
Strike throw game. This is why you play SF. Theirs many other really good games that no one touches. You all want strike throw footsies game. ENJOY WHAT YOU WANT!
If they're not going to get rid of throw loops can they at least remove shimmy throw loop, Juri for example can't shimmy you she has to go for the strike/throw allowing you to tick throw but Ken and Akuma can at any point in the throw loop shimmy you and blow you up for 60 percent.
It's stale because if you've seen one high level match between Juri and JP you've seen them all. Insert any character vs any other character and you still get the same formulaic movements and outcomes in most matches. You'll seen an average of three to 4 punishes into 8 plus hit combos the 1st round, and 1 to two 8+ hit combo into a CA the 2nd or 3rd round between opponents. 8 plus hit combos were not prominent in previous Street Fighter games. Why are they now? Ask yourself how it affects, or exposes the flow of the game. Imagine if they did not stop the timer during super activations. Ask yourself how that would affect, or even expose the flow of the game. The game is GO fish! into big combos, and if you're lucky with catching your fish first, that combo takes the opponent into a corner where you apply more pressure in your favor. You can make 7 or 8 good reads on your opponent outside of combos (ie I'm Ryu and I'm playing against Marissa> I whiff punish into sweep, shimmy throw on opponents wake up (twice), neutral Jumping HK into C RHP>shoryuken) In that situation I made 4 good reads on my opponent. Then lets say after that shoryuken I make ONE bad read. Marissa then goes into whiff punishing with a Heavy attack into a 7 plus hit combo into her CA. That's 50-60 percent of my life for 1 bad read, to my 4 reads taking maybe 40-50 percent of her life. This is ridiculous if your mind is open enough to see it. Normal Moves and legit reads have taken a backseat to flashy over extended combos, for the sake of entertaining viewers. Don't get me wrong, I get a dopamine rush when I land a punish into big 8 + combo>CA autopilot, but sometimes I roll my eyes when I know my opponent outplayed me and I landed literally only or 2 or 3 confirms to end him. There is a volley lost in SF6 matches that use to expose the skill gap between two players. People don't see the personality in their characters anymore. My solution is make normals strong again and scale back the damage on long winded combos. It's Street Fighter, not a Marvel game. Long combos are just for flash and puts the game on auto pilot. Minimal skill is involved in doing a 10 hit combo in this game (lenient inputs). Shrink the hitboxes and hurt boxes to normal street fighter levels. As it stands right now the hit/hurtboxes are too large, resulting in easier whiff punishes. Someone on here argued "well that's the point, it's suppose to make hit confirms easier to do" like that's a good thing. I didn't have a response to this absurd comment. If I brought back the lowering of the basketball hoop analogy they still wouldn't get it. Add an invincibility frame to the backdash. It would add a defensive option on wakeup and in the corner, to keep the aggressor thinking about their next attack instead of meaty>throwloop>rinse-repeat. Ya'll don't hear me though. That's okay. The game isn't getting more interesting to new and old players, but hey, that's okay.
It seems majority worldwide want throw loop gone but not japan majority. That is why we don't get any attention from Capcom cause they only eye balling at japans players. Smh
I don't think anything unplinkable can be 1 frame. The absolute best setup is going to have >1ms average input delay. The key word is average, because it varies. 2ms makes it a large enough window so it's consistently inside the ever-changing input delay space.
1 frame in online games is hard plus the input delays and all... Pretty much a lottery at that point to perfect parry... Losing bar after the first throw is good in my opinion
You would just make perfect parry more random essentially and more infuriating to play against. Your opponent probably won't hit the perfect parry at 1 frame, so you have to ignore it. But then your opponent did hit the perfect parry and now you lost the game.
The numbers Mason, SF6 is a success compared to other SFs why would they change anything, they seem to be doing the right things from a business perspective.
I seriously doubt sf6 will sell as much copies as sf4 . Most of the playerbase will own the game the first year , sf6 currently sitting at 4 million copies , selling 6 more millions is a huge stretch at best . Sf4 sold 10 m . Hell , I'd be suprised if sf6 matches the copies sold from sfv
8:00 actually my bigegst gripe why Strive disappointed so heavily. At least SF6 offers a bit more variance due to the Drive system and the situations you find yourself in but it's still a big issue with modern fighting games.
Honestly, if throws loops are so necessary because they counter parry, just give a parry breaker move that ends your offense if blocked but crumples or something if parried. I'd even prefer if throws did, like, twice the damage they do now but couldn't be looped if that meant throw loops are gone.
I mean. You could scale each throw that comes after the first. 100% for the first throw, and it scale the more you throw. Kinda like how Smash Bros does. The more you do the same move, more and more in a row, the less damage it does.
@@marlinmurrell620 When is it not considered the same move? Like, if I throw and then tick throw, is it the same? If throw, and then play neutral for five seconds with no hits and then get a throw, is it the same? Genuine question, btw--I don't know Smash rules.
@theuzi8516 there's no tick throws. But like, if you do a different move like, once, then go back to the other move you were spamming, it'll still be scaled. I guess you can think of it as a cool down. It'll become unscaled over time.
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034there's definitely way too much damage vs volatility in this game . If they decide to leave the game be this volatile they need to nerf the damage across the board by atleast 30%
Salty scrubs in the comments blaming throw loops. If a bison plants a bomb on you and you want to turtle down until it detonates there should be repercussions, so hold that throw loop and stop complaining.
yall remember when some guy on twitter thought throw loops were removed in a patch and it got a million views and everyone was celebrating but he just mistimed it?
Yes, I think it was the Ed patch. I think people were playing a demo at capcup or something. I just remember it was a Capcom sponsored event or something, hence why people got to try out the Ed patch.
SF6 is trash!!! Casuals are the only ones who really enjoy this garbage. SFV is better!!
@kelvin303 I appreciate your honesty. Still playing/enjoying sfv, champion edition has more personality, better music/stages and more interesting characters in the roster. I've only played the sf6 demo and I'm still waiting for my fav characters that I play and love to watch. I mean, where's Sagat, Gill/Urien, Birdie, Vega/Claw, Dan, Oro?
@@RushianRichardwell duh sfv is going to have more characters its been through its entire lifespan…
@@kelvin303no one liked sfv it was trash
Throw loops have always been dumb. Even from a visual stand point watching a dude walk into the corner and throw a guy over and over again looks ridiculous.
That’s call in NYC SFIII strike community as NUGGET lol 😂 you are NUGGET
@@Woody-Tv-13never heard of the term nugget used in 3rd strike , there aren't even throw loops in 3rd strike , i guess if you're keep getting thrown when there aren't throw loops you are a nugget lol
Not really. When we saw Xiaohai do it to Kusanagi we didn't really care. Actually, people started getting hyped about it. They wanted to see if he was willing to take it all the way. And same thing with Kusanagi. He did like 6 throws in a row and people were just popping off. I think it's so dank that instead of getting upset about it, people embrace it, for the culture I guess you could say. It's mostly a sign of disrespect and that's what fgc thrives off of - a story
@@itsmesteve1081it’s not disrespect though. It is literally the meta
@@itsmesteve1081very few people embrace it and force it upon others. There are people who dislike aspects of SF6 and there are the defenders of the game who want to silence and discredit anyone who dislikes sf6. That's not going to help the game in the long run.
I can't say I agree that the design discourages growth. I got the game July 19th in 2023 when I got back from deployment. I hit master the week before evo that year. I was stuck around 1600 MR for a while, but as of 2 days ago, I hit 1800MR MR. That only happened because I labbed, and I learned. *I* wanted to get better.
The self improvement is a personal goal. And if a game is more complex, it can discourage progression rather than encourage it.
True competitive gamers are a different breed, and we will still thrive no matter if the game is viewed as easy or hard so long as we like the game.
The art of fighting game making went through a whole journey where the earlier games started raw, then got a stable base of mechanics, then were getting more and more refined in a way that made them more complex.
That second stage was simply fated to hit a kind of limit, where crossing that line would only make the games too complex and less attractive to new players, and reinforce the niche nature of the genre.
And the games would be threatened financially going that way, since the arcades were going down. So it was very obvious that the genre couldn't just be getting gradually more complex in every sequel. There is even people who argue that the "limit" was already crossed with games like MvC2, 3S, SFA3, CvS2, KOF 02, GG in general, etc... These "try hard" games that shaped a generation of players.
The fact is that people are nostalgic about that period, and the more immature part of those old players are unable to judge the situation correctly... but the genre was doing very poorly over most of the 00s. And now every single active classic franchise is doing better financially than in the 90s and 00s. Some of them are too nostalgic about the old fgc events, the 00s Evo, to bother looking outside that niche bubble of their community and understand that the genre was in a bad state in most of the 00s (except few 3d games TK5 and SC2).
@@carlosaugusto9821KOF '02 it's not complex, WTF did you smoke?, there are waaay More complex games out there even in the KOF franchise.
Ranked, especially 1600 MR ranked is not competitive fam. It's not even a good representation of the game.
@@numa2k147 out of everything I said in that post, to you managed to focus on the last important thing, good job
During the network beta the word was that low forward drive rush would suck because it cost so much meter so no one would use it LMAO
How the turns have tabled
Or how people always say "just dp, or drive reversal it", but human reactions can only do so much lol. Back in sf4 when they made dp fadc "punishable", hardly anyone ever did. Not to say these things don't happen, but not every time.
@@chimpmasterflex Not to mention that most DRC blockstrings end up with you forced to block like 2 or 3 moves before you can DP or reversal, so you basically end up spending a bar on blocking + 2 for the reversal, so you've spent just as much as the guy doing mindless DRC, except you basically don't get any reward for it. You're basically losing the interaction even if you land the reversal.
I remember SonicSol saying how Drive Impact was stupid because it was impossible to react to and it needed changed lol
@@ADreamingTraveler james Chen would still agree with him 😅
I would be fine with everyone requiring Drive Rush to loop a meaty throw after a forward throw in the corner. That would keep the option in play but at a cost. Having more pushback and less looping knockdown pressure specifically in corner would be good. The offense would still be in a dominant spot since they'd be in prime spacing to antiair jump outs, while also removing meterless loops and eliminating some checkmate scenarios during burnout. I also like kizzie's idea of making jailing more expensive if it stays in at all. Though i think they could also experiment with drive gauge recovery being delayed for longer if a normal is drive rush cancelled on block, making long term gauge cost for jailing more expensive over time of a round.
Nope 1 bar is pennies, fucky throw loops
You would just dp whenever they throw because you know theyre going to throw loop. Congrats, non dp characters now get dumpstered
@@KidArkx Not necessarily. You can DR into Guard/fake out, shimmy, strike, throw etc.
I remember reading somewhere that the reason why low forward into drive rush is not confirmable (or ridiculously difficult to do consistently) is because the meta of SF5 being "low medium confirm - the game". Now there are still low forwards, but now you cant just confirm 100% of the time, so offense is more "difficult" in a sense. Although it would be nice if they did remove the jailing like what kizzie suggested to make it not as easy to get pressure off it
Game is trash, only casuals are really enjoying this garbage no way real gamers like this sht. SFV is wayyy better. More polished, skills and design.
There are too many matchups that devolve into 1 neutral interaction into a corner carry combo, and then just guess for game in the corner. It's frustrating that most matchups play out like that. I would like a longer and more engaging neutral than what we currently have. I think there is just way too much neutral skip/drive rush, and honestly, anyone can get caught by it, which leads to too many upsets.
Drive Rush just needs to be easier to check. Some characters have these skibidi buttons that are impossible to punish even if your timing is on point.
Getting hit out of drive rush should be an automatic counter, and getting a button checked out of drive Rush should be an automatic Punish Counter.
I also think whatever button you use to hit a character out of drive Rush should have no scaling into the next hit. Anything to distinctivize/add risk to neutral skips a bit.
You can’t really have a unique play style, & Drive Rush is the name of the game. The rest of the Drive abilities are so underpowered compared to it.
Drive Rush to skip neutral, oki after any knockdown, etc.
@@KARS215 Saying you can't have a unique play style is so wrong it's insane. I can watch 3 top level kens play and tell you who they are based on how they play because they have such different styles. You couldn't do that in SFV. Just because drive rush is something everyone has to utilise doesn't mean there aren't tons of unique ways people play their characters.
I got called a convo baiter and unintelligent apparently for suggesting the drive rush spend should be reversed for during neutral and post confirm.
If the neutral drive rush spend got increased to 3 bars, then it would basically make for a more engaging neutral, as people would no longer be able to spam it.
Reduce hit confirm DR spend to 1 -1.5x bars for better combo extensions so that when there is finally a hit confirm, the game's momentum swing and tempo really picks up.
At the moment the game is just spam neutral DR. guaranteed knock down and then it's not even a 50/50 guessing game, the mental stack is insane.
The neutral DR just skews the character balance right now, the faster characters are even faster and the more powerful characters are still fast enough to overpower you in ways they shouldn't really be able to. Zangief having DR for example is just wild.
@@Longlostpuss That change would break almost every juggle combo in the game, and wouldn't extend ground combos enough to make up for it. The juggle system of the game is entirely built around drive rush normals having +3 juggle count and not incrementing the juggle counter, and most aren't DRCs because the normals involves aren't always cancelable.
If they could find a way to increase the risk for the person throwing, I think it would help a lot. Adding some recovery so backdashing leads to reliable punishes, even mid-screen, or so it at least puts jumping more on the table. Even something like increasing how far you're pushed apart after a tech. We have too many advancing normals, that already would have great reach without that part, which just space you there after a tech.
Idk, for me at least, seeing a pro eat 2-6 throws in a row, every other match is anti-hype. We can have some crazy close set, that ends with a blowout, cause someone got cornered, thrown 3 times, gets shimmied and dies. Outside of a match with tons of dropped combos, that is pretty much the last way I wanna see a match end.
Noone likes throwloops, everyone has said throwloops need to go since even before launch, it's the most anti-hype thing to watch and STILL they refuse to listen.
Idk I kinda like em lol. It's tilting af but it feels good doing it back
People didn't want throw loops in f5 either. Don't know why we got em in 6.
@@LLL74123 That's a good point. It indeeds looks concerning that the devs haven't done anything serious about this, though it's a complaint since SF5.
And it's ok that the current devs didn't fix it in SF5, as it's Ono's game and they just came in the end to replace him... But now SF6 is a game totally planned by them, and they chose to do it, despite the complaints.
Everyone says to get rid of throw loops but nobody says HOW to get rid of them
@@ADreamingTraveler Throw loops just need to be like SF5 where there's a gap they get beaten by mashing a 4 frame.
The reality is, throw loops need to stay in the game until they change drive parry. I think people focus on drive rush way too much when the biggest problems I believe all relate to drive parry. Like what was said in the video, just make low forward DR into LP punishable by reversals and drive rush is pretty fine.
Drive parry removes left/right and low/high mixups. Because of how strong it is, throw loops need to be in the game as an equaliser to the insanely powerful drive parry. There are a few things they can do to drive parry:
1. Put left/right and low/high mix ups back in. Basically you still have to parry in the correct direction and low/high or else you get hit.
2. Because of the above, make parry give bigger push back. This means the defender gets rewarded by getting out of the pressure faster when defending correctly.
3. Heavily reduce or completely remove the slow down on perfect parry when used on normals.
I think these 3 changes to drive parry will make parry "balanced"
I like how in KOF its handled since a long time ago, after you wake up theres a 7 or 9 frame window of throw invincibility and also after any blockstun or hitstun, so if your opponent does a throw it will whiff, so they can't meaty a throw there, they have to wait a little bit so in KOF you get thrown is because you specfically decided to hold back and block, also because there's proximity throws if they try to meaty a throw a normal will come out instead
Too bad KoF isn't popular in US. I'm myself a KoF fan but I have no choice but to play SF6 because of the easy online matches.
@@hermontarmand2404 That's true, the netcode doesn't help either, its rollback but its not SF6 good, and the match making its bad too
if the game slows down i don’t mind that at all… i don’t get too many games that go to the end at all or even close sometimes
I propose changes to the current grab system, suggesting it be modeled after the Capcom vs. SNK 2 mechanics. In that system, the HP + forward input had a bit of range and a 9-frame start-up, while HK + forward had a much shorter range but a 6-frame start-up. Additionally, I recommend slightly increasing both block stun and hit stun durations. Grabs should also result in a hard knockdown. These adjustments could eliminate throw loops and other issues. Furthermore, implementing a guard crush system similar to that of Street Fighter: Alpha 3 would enhance gameplay. Finally, Drive-Reversals should be made safe on block and invincible to hits and grabs. Also they should implement options for wake-up, like for example giving Delayed Get-up, Quick Get-up, and Normal Get-up.
give all characters X frames of throw invul on wake up BUT if they Parry they lose all throw invul so if they decide to wake tap parry they are subject to throw but if they wake up block the are safe from immediate/meaty walk up throw
Adding more recovery frames to whiffing throws incentivize the desire to back dash and it actually be able to punish under more circumstances. Thats all they have to do.
I was literally thinking this exact same thing. So many suggestions people come up with would cause so many more problems than they would solve, but simply adding more recovery frames to a whiffed throw would make a throwloop-attempt punishable on back-dash/neutral jump/forward jump.
That way throwloop/meaty/shimmy pressure can still exist (as well it should imo), but makes it so that every option can be actively punished if read properly WITHOUT the need for spending resources.
It's a simple solution that doesn't drastically shift any other dynamic of the game.
In my mind it shouldn't be about removing throwloops entirely as so many suggest. It should be about adding more risk to throwlooping incorrectly.
@@VermillionMonk EXACTLY. I swear you’re the first person to have an intuitive explanation and understanding on balancing a mechanic I’ve seen so far other than Broski. Stay the course we need you out here. Lol
@@bloodmoon920 I've got a big passion for game design so tackling balancing/design issues like these is kinda my jam, especially considering that SF6 has inspired to make my own fighting game as a project in the future.
I feel the Drive Rush OS should be taken away. That doing c. MK/MP on whiff while doing DR and doesn't come out unless it connects, should be gone. Make the DR come out regardless and have the waste the 3 bars, force them to put more thought into it.
Throw loops should only be possible off Drive Rush imo.
If you simply walk forward, you should be able to meaty them and not throw them. That makes going for throw slightly more risky if the opponent does not wake up parry, but I feel like that creates a good mind games and doesn't just feel helpless on defense.
And wake up parry is not even perfect anyway, you could time your meaties to hit on frame 3 or 4 of wakeup and bypass the perfect parry completely. Or on defense if you read that delayed meaty, you can delay perfect parry. That would add so much granularity to offense in the corner
Throw loop type 1: No DR, Able to shimmy without back dash
Throw loop type 2: No DR, Able to shimmy but only with backlash (lose to any buttons)
Throw loop type 3: Need drive rush
If you have type 1, +1. Have OD invincible as well? +1, Crouch MK cancel? +1, Fire ball? +1
regular dp should be invincible
@@rocket_bsd_8101 🤡
You can approach this a couple different ways, Make normal throw put characters further away and make drive reversal knock characters futher away with slightly more wake up recovery on knockdown... basically to a point where it resets neutral
I just want diminishing returns on damage for back to back throws, so if you throw loop you'll gradually do way less damage, and get rewarded for mixing in other things with throws being back to max damage.
Yeah. That makes sense.
Good idea
That would make throw loops even more of a problem bc the risk/reward would skew towards taking the throw even more than it is now
@@yamsSMPi don't think you understood his comment , he's saying each sequential throw would do less and less damage , so if you take the throw you win more so than currently, exactly opposite of what you're saying
@IytrrvItru why wouldn't you take the throw though on the 4th guess knowing it doesn't do much damage.
The drive system is the problem. Just constant drive rushing all over the screen like it’s anime, no originality between the characters because of it.
If delayed throw tech didn’t work and you had to eat a three way mixup between strike/throw/shimmy every time, I think throw loops would be a problem. As is, I personally think it’s okay. Throws really don’t do that much damage, it’s just frustrating to get hit by repeatedly
I swear kizzie get bigger every time i see him
2:09 Kizzie scaring the fuck outta me with all that staring LMAO
I can't tell if they're gonna give us 2nd super/vtrigger/etc. or a new system mechanic this time around for the first major game rebalance. You know they have to be cooking up something for Y3 or Y4. Almost all the gripes are "new system" issues that are now very obvious apart from some specific S tiers we all know are a bit over tuned and low tiers that are undertuned. I think they're close to cracking the code on what they need to change and how.
I hope with 4mil copies sold in a little over a year and how conservative the updates have been compared to SFV, capcom has to be looking to keep that momentum up. We need something to give the "30 minute breakdown" to pair with the "5 minute breakdown" If it can have both of those I think this will be a tough to topple GOAT in the FGC.
Oh and that’s a great video. Keep up the good work.
iDom chose to play one of the weakest character in the game, for some reason, and he has always been complaining about Street Fighter (and yet, he keeps playing it) 🤷♂
Idom said sarcastically "Do you think anyone actually googles who is the best character in Streetfighter 6?" He's right, play the character you like.
3 years? The game is like a year and 4 months old and beta started a couple months prior to that at the earliest... Lol.
What about a perfect throw break similar to perfect parry. If someone breaks your throw at the same time you do it (so no delay tech) you get a special animation and advantage on the break where you can attack first and put them on the defensive for being predictable with the throw.
Now this I like
Which character would win a dunk contest?
Dhalsim
@@duxnihilo Maybe but his elephants will have no respect for him. They taught him everything about dunking. I'm kinda feeling Manon
Rashid would be like spud webb
Sagat look at the calves
Bison would destroy the hoop with devil reverse
Whoever put Psychic Force 2 Carlo's theme in here deserves the highest praise, respectfully.
The way I see it there's 2 things that are unhealthy about this game. The tournament format that discourages pro players from travelling and doesn't reward consistency, and the fanbase. Reading some of the suggestion here to "fix" it and dear God, the fanbase would run this game into the ground into record time. As iDom said it, SF6 is a game about resource management. Neutral and execution helps, but it's not what wins you the match. And for this goal, the game is fine. If you don't like this design philosophy, that's fair. Just know that changing it would make the game better for _you_ and not healthier in any sense of the word.
Wanna jump off of this point because I completely agree. Neutral, footsies, execution, all of that has been a staple of Street Fighter since SF2, and even to now - but they've never been the only things that incorporate the meta.
SF2 was about finding characters that either bypassed the neutral completely (Boxer, Claw), or completely invaded it (Ryu, Sagat).
The Alpha series had those aspects, but with things like air blocking and the various uses of Super Meter added, it also diminished the importance of those skills. And don't get me started on Alpha 3.
SF3 had the parry, and there's nothing I can say here that hasn't been said a thousand times before.
SF4 was pretty close, especially with the execution barrier of the one frame links, but it wasn't the whole world; Focus Attacks were literally designed as a direct counter to neutral and footsies by letting you steal turns back. It was a lot more than just canceling out into doing bigger combos.
SF5 - and I'll be fair and only mention late SF5 - was almost about that, too. The problem was how explosive that game was with its damage and the low barrier of entry that the execution was... which is a little ironic considering some of the complaints about SF6 at the moment. You pretty much got the same return as a Drive Rush cancel in SF6 off of a basic low forward starter with some characters.
I have nothing but respect for iDom, and I mean that, it's not a backhanded statement. I think his problem with SF6 at the moment is that it's not SF5. The character he played as, Laura, had a lot of trapping options and rush-in footsie tools that allowed her to gain monstrous momentum compared to a lot of the cast... and this is SF5 we're talking about. Thing is, in a game like SF6, everyone's like that due to the Drive mechanics. And if everyone gets to be Laura, that means no one gets to be Laura.
So I don't know. I love iDom, and I think he has it in him as a competitor to really come back around and start placing in Top 8's reliably again. It's just a little hard to hear someone criticize SF6 when they pick a character, Manon, who isn't on the meta to really play SF6. He's sitting and waiting for a patch to come in to let her play SF6 instead of picking a character that means to his strengths that also plays SF6. Instead, he's still playing SF5. And even if he's in the conversation for being the top 5 best players in the world at SF5 - which he is, in my opinion - he's still choosing to pick a character that doesn't play the same game as everyone else.
Absolutely we should really focus on cpt not the game itself
@@yhposolihP Great points! I'd argue Idom especially doesn't like this game BECAUSE his character doesn't get the Meta defining trait of Cr.Mk > DRC. Also Manon's Drive Rush is notorious for being the shortest and slowest in the game, meaning he can't utilize anything the Meta has to offer. Despite these mechanics being rather overbearing, no one else complains about them to the level that Idom has and I imagine it's because a majority of the cast, and their player base, is utilizing the same meta. Where as a select few characters are not.
Banger comment. The balance desicions i see suggested in the comments are insane. Game designers have their jobs for a reason.
@@yhposolihP Yup, agree with every point there. I'll add that iDom was also my favorite player to watch in SFV. His signature "2 frame jab" made things unpredictable and fun to watch. He showed that even more important than having good fundamentals is knowing when to _not_ apply said fundamentals. On top of him playing Manon (which is one of the worst characters to use the system mechanics of a system mechanics oriented game), I also think the damage in SF6 being even higher than SFV heavily incentivizes players to be risk averse. In SFV there were only a few characters who could completely delete you off a bad abare, in 6 it's everyone that has 2+ super bars and isn't in burnout. For a player like iDom, this really must feel like shackles. I think his ECT run proved that there is a winning strategy there, but I don't doubt it feels frustrating. I just wish he was less "game sucks" whenever he voices said frustrations, lol.
can somebody explain why kizzie says hard knockdowns would change anything? i dont understand what he means
Hard knockdown on throws means you have enough frame advantage to have more oki options like safe jumps. This in turn can lead to ambiguous crossups, which he says would not be too strong because parry does not care about which side your opponent is. This on top of the throw protection on wakeup he mentioned (no more meaty throws) might lead to more layered offense rather than binary strike/throw decisions.
@@KenHayesVideos oh my god thanks lol, I don't know how I managed to confuse myself enough to even ask that question
I just need to say one thing. TURNING Throws into a hard knockdown aka "turning the game into street fighter 4" IS NOT A BAD THING. Throw loops need to be adjusted/removed. Street Fighter 4 is easily one of the best titles in the franchise. Look at what it did for the FGC. You can't deny it. Throw loops and The high damage output should be adjusted. right now the game is only 50% of what street fighter is supposed to be. I said what I said.
I remember starting on CVS2 just learning about inputs and then playing a different bunch of fighting games over the years and I can say SF6 is definitely the easiest to get into from my experience
Love you guys, but gotta work on not ending and starting every point you're making with ''Like'' or ''But like''
Side effect of talking rubbish.
Why not do a diminishing damage on throw loop. 1st throw 100% damage, 2nd 50%, 3rd 25%, ect. ect.
Yeah. That makes the most sense lol
This sounds good, cap it at 3 in a row
i think a 1/2 nerf is way to much and throw damage is pretty meh.
100 80 60 cap at 60 and maybe give counters exceptions to this.
Cap @@HI-kb2cg
@@HI-kb2cg yeah way too severe. I'd be happy with a flat 80% on all meaty throws
Keep on doing interviews!!
What about letting you to throw tech with jab but you get worse frame advantage if you tech that way? but also in return you get better frame advantage if you tech the regular way (with throw), maybe neutral or barely plus so you get a chance to steal a turn for teching with throw instead of jab which would be the riskier option but more rewarding while at the same time because its riskier you get blown up for it if they guess that option, if they sucessfuly throw you then that means you especifically decided to block and in that the one doing the throw should have the same advantage that they have right now
Kinda like granblue, if they shimmy you and you tech with jab , they have to block the crouch jab, forcing players to shimmy much further away or not being able to shimmy, they may still be able shimmy you and punish you but not on reaction because the jab is too fast compared to the throw animation, they would have to make the read and commit to the punish and hit confirm or commit to waiting to see the throw, at the low level if they are just mashing not knowing what they are doing then they will get punished that way everytime, they just won't get away with teching that way.
just a way to make shimmy and throws weaker with a fair disadvantage for going for it all the time
or screw it, let the game allow you to tech with any attack so doing the shimmy is even more scary, imagine if they tech with crouch medium kick, but remember, if you tech that way , it's the opponent's turn still, seems fair to me.
5:35-5:47 This is the reason I don't care whether or not they keep the throw loops.
When you remember that modern fighting games need to consider EASY accessibility to be sure to bring in a new audience that sticks around it isn't hard to imagine why they would keep decisions that the hard-core audience is not in favor of
this is my first 2d fighter and i want throw loops gone, i don't think they're fun, whether playing or watching
My personal opinion in fighting games is throws should not give good oki. Games are just better IMO when that is not the case. Spamming the wake-up guessing game isn’t compelling gameplay
Throws should give your enemy health and make your character turn into one of the background NPC's
They’re saving the removal of throw loops for Super Street Fighter 6 lol
? They haven't done that format since 2014.
@@adriandenton6637what you mean sf5 had SF5 Arcade edition. It’ll he some huge patch later on that redefines the mechanics in a couple years basically “super street fighter 6 or Arcade edition”
@@Father2ALegacy Yea it was just a free update though and nobody had to buy a disc.
@@adriandenton6637yeah I didn’t mention it having a price, i’m just saying they are saving the big updates for that big rebrand Super or Arcade. Thats all
@@Father2ALegacy Ok fair enough, but people spent about 7 years bashing capcom for ripping people off for an update and a rebranding, which got very boring.
Too much guessing in this game. It is stressful, boring, repetitive, mind numbing garbage
No one likes throw loops. Add throw loop protection after a throw. Even Smash has a mechanic where you can't be throw looped/chain grabbed.
At high level, what is the record for throw loop? just curious
At 12:27 Kusanagi threw Xiao Hai 6 times in a row to win UFA. That's the most I can remember off the top of my head
@@beam5655 Canada Cup 2016 Phenom threw Daigo 5 times
I think you got the winner in the timestamp at 12:27😅
Kizzie is godlike but imo he got some sorta headass takes LOL. You can remove throw loop but a lot of things need to change for that to work or it REALLY becomes “tap parry Fighter”. If cr MK drive rush didn’t jail I agree with Idom that the game would CRAWL man it would be wild - keep in mind they removed plus frames out of the game compared to SFV. The idea Capcom “didn’t think about the offense” - not at all - they DID think about it and this is what they came up with. It’s great for new players, but the trade off is that it’s a little more shallow. Also cmon man hard knockdown? These kids ain’t ready for the SF4 vortex.
You know, there are characters in the game without throw loops and their matches seems OK from my point of view (Chun-Li for example). My opinion is: Equalize everybody, no more throw loops.
I think what you said about LF dr is good. My thing is I think LF dr should not be plus on block but on hit its way more plus. It will force People to stop aimlessly doing it and each person will have to react both ways. It’s just to easy for anyone to
throw is obviously to counter blocking but the pressure should be finished post throw.
Idom really can't go a single segment without talking about Marvel 😂
We can never truly stop thinking about it. It always stays in your mind and heart.
There were leaks that showed Capcom had plans for a Super and Ultra version of Street FIghter 6 in the future. Hopefully they add new mechanics that give the game extra depth in future updates and also get rid of throw loops
The worst thing is losing meter for successfully blocking long strings.
No. Just like alpha 3 guard crush. Eat poo from my pressure. Though a whole burnout sesh hurts a bit more than a guard crush. Sometimes you're not successfully blocking though. I can observe you ain't pressing buttons and I'll keep using heavies to guard crush or break your meter.
@@noBody-ue6cs There are games with guard crush and others without it, and there's no right or wrong about it.
@@noBody-ue6cssome characters have much better pressure and better defensive options, though. If you're going to lose meter by blocking, the amount should be dependant on who is applying that pressure. Zangief and female zangief should take more off per block than say, rashid.
Why not have invincibility on throws after a couple of throws?
Love Throw Loops
Regarding left/right mix-ups. What if Capcom made the input for parry the same as SF3, and rejigged the drive rush mechanic/inputs to compensate. Or perhaps they keep it as hold MP+MK but parry only comes out if the player also taps or holds forward?
I think perfect parry should only work with correct direction guess
@@beam5655 would that fix left-right mix-ups mentioned in the video though?
@@beam5655 I guess it would be a more hedged mprovement
What if only punish counter throws give another free hit/throw mix up?
iDom doesn't like SF6 in general because he doesnt like the mechanics, thus he is not winning. Or vice-versa, he is not winning thus not enjoying the game. Either way, SF6 is just not for iDom. Maybe picking a different character that provides better winning chances change that but we will never know.
Also, Gief's meta does not require the corner or throw loops. Just the fear of SPD and headbutt.
This is a horrible discussion. There is a lot of "anti" but no solid alternative. Remove throw loops. Then what?
IDom should just stop playing SF6. He seems miserable. This is iDom of SF5 wanting SF5 in an SF6 world.
He just got 2nd place at an insanely stacked tournament, i think he is right about everything he said in this video
2nd though, yeah he's not doing well.
Damn your brain is completely dead
I bet you’re one of those who complain and leave the game if throw loops are gone
Just make the stage wider so you don’t get cornered in one combo and throw to death
If Wakeup driver reversal hits a blocking opponent that should be knocked down or back.
Gonna love these guile matches after your changes!
I still haven’t fully committed to SF6. Throw loops are annoying, drive rush is in my opinion an annoying gimmick. I never like the gimmicks. I loved SF4 but hated focus attacks, I hated the whatever the gimmick was in SF5. Oh the V-trigger. I wish we could have another 3rd Strike. I keep saying this and I will continue to do so.
City of the wolves might be the modern third strike. They seem to be marketing heavy off of strong defense
They could literally just remake SF:4, quality of life and graphics it up and I'd play again. This just doesn't have it like 5 didn't have it. 4 had it the most, 2 had it enough and 3 was almost as good as 4.
In SF4 you was punished for acting 🎭 overly aggressive. SF6 encourages stupidity and repetitive aggression.
True
I don’t think aggression is a bad thing . When aggression is more universal is when it becomes an issue . It should be tied to an archetype
@@problemsnearyou8899 that’s why I said Overly. Combined with DI, DR, DR grab or DR normal, and jump ins, while trying to figure out what your opponent is doing is overwhelming.
@@ShinOwen2 honestly the more I’ve been playing, the less stressful drive rush feels like . The second a knock down occurs on me, I always judge if they’re going to DR from that distance & is it safe for them to do so . I think idom described it perfectly that once you learn the ins & outs of the drive system as a whole, the game slows down a lot . It’s still fast but it isn’t overwhelming
@ShinOwen2 sf4 also greatly rewarded you for getting your butt kicked thru the Ultra meter. And it was also overly strong in defensive tech to the point that you needed multiple OS's to make maintaining offensive pressure somewhat bearable. The pendulum just swung towards the other direction. Pretty much all of the mainstream fighters since the mid 2000s have tried to make things more accessible and it leads to these metas. It was just that SF4 and Tekken 6 and others tried to make things more lenient and also gave the losing player more tools to comeback like Ultra and Rage, while more recent titles like sf6 and tekken 8 reward aggressive offensive from the start thru Drive Rush and Heat.
Throws should do 10 damage max
yeah or my idea of throws doing no damage but just to shift momentum
I hope the make a street fighter type cvs2 with types. Play with all the options.
Idom is someone who once said that Kusanagi only won because of throwloop even though xiaohai used also throwloop to reset the bracket. I don’t take this guy seriously.
Did you watch the match?
@@MGTarkus Yes I watched. To reduce Kusanagi's win to this is dumb.
So many things I disagree with this video. So you say that there's no skill ceiling after you pass the noob state? This has to be a joke. The usual suspects always top 8ed while the competition is fierce and way broader than ever before. internet has every information about everything too! Sf6 resource management is really hard to be consistent too! Its really a joke to argue that after a certain early state you can't distinct the best players from the simply good ones. There are a lot of high lvl stuff in sf6!
Kinda wild how the Tekken bros and the SF guys are complaining about the same thing in a different package.
Maybe Capcom and BamCo should not be basically co-developing their fighting games.
No more hanging out after work together either.
i don't care much for the roster, the new fighters and the recent dlc
Idom has been pitching about sf6 ever since he drowned in pools in the first tournament he entered punk was right guys a fraud. With no laura to force 50 50s in the middle of the screen with v trigger he sucks.
how can you say that a guy who just got 2nd place in a really stacked tournament sucks?
Fraud is when 2nd place ECT
Kinda sucks that nothing positive was really said about the game here lol. If only tekken or city of the wolves could have capcom netcode…and playerbase 😅
You say it's been like this for 3 years but the game has only been out for 1.5.
Mannn IDOM is such a nice guy!! Impossible not to like him
What's he referring to around 7:30 that sounds like "exer"?
Guilty Gear Xrd 😊
I think hard knockdown on throws would make throws too strong
Throw loops are a SF stable. Sorry 16ers.
Like counter off the charts
No Laura player can talk about throw loops. The best thing that did was not bring her back
That's why he's bitching because he can't pull the same shit with Manon that he could with Laura.
What if they made stages larger?
The only change I would really love to see is for a buffered normal into drive rush cancel to eat like at least a bar of drive gauge on whiff. Maybe 1.5. The risk reward is so skewed when you can just mash it and buffer it without any consequences
Buffered dr from normal won't come out unless it's a light punch or light kick . They should make every normal buffered into dr like that too , if you don't connect you lose 3 bars , shit is stupid currently
@@IytrrvItru I thought this too initially but I think that might be TOO punishing haha
Its just a decision by capcom, to either sell better, or make it nuanced. And they seem to have made their decision
Flashy like SF5, or Complex like SF3. And SF5 is among the top 3 best selling titles... and SF3 killed SF, killed all of Capcom's faith in 2d fgs, leading to a 5+ years break in fg production after CvS2. Since Capcom makes commercial products I can understand their decisions.
idk if throw loops are a strong selling point for the game
@@carlosaugusto9821 Ah yes, SF3 being complex is what killed it and not the shitass roster (It has good characters but no guile or blanka?)
Strike throw game. This is why you play SF. Theirs many other really good games that no one touches. You all want strike throw footsies game. ENJOY WHAT YOU WANT!
Plenty of other street fighters don't have throw loops, you are clueless
Throw tech work in this game?
Where u been?
3 years?
If they're not going to get rid of throw loops can they at least remove shimmy throw loop, Juri for example can't shimmy you she has to go for the strike/throw allowing you to tick throw but Ken and Akuma can at any point in the throw loop shimmy you and blow you up for 60 percent.
Do you two think SF6 is in "pay to win" territory now?
SF6 is garbage players can win. SFV needs to continue to be updated cuz it’s a way better game.
It's stale because if you've seen one high level match between Juri and JP you've seen them all. Insert any character vs any other character and you still get the same formulaic movements and outcomes in most matches.
You'll seen an average of three to 4 punishes into 8 plus hit combos the 1st round, and 1 to two 8+ hit combo into a CA the 2nd or 3rd round between opponents. 8 plus hit combos were not prominent in previous Street Fighter games. Why are they now? Ask yourself how it affects, or exposes the flow of the game.
Imagine if they did not stop the timer during super activations. Ask yourself how that would affect, or even expose the flow of the game.
The game is GO fish! into big combos, and if you're lucky with catching your fish first, that combo takes the opponent into a corner where you apply more pressure in your favor. You can make 7 or 8 good reads on your opponent outside of combos (ie I'm Ryu and I'm playing against Marissa> I whiff punish into sweep, shimmy throw on opponents wake up (twice), neutral Jumping HK into C RHP>shoryuken) In that situation I made 4 good reads on my opponent. Then lets say after that shoryuken I make ONE bad read. Marissa then goes into whiff punishing with a Heavy attack into a 7 plus hit combo into her CA. That's 50-60 percent of my life for 1 bad read, to my 4 reads taking maybe 40-50 percent of her life. This is ridiculous if your mind is open enough to see it.
Normal Moves and legit reads have taken a backseat to flashy over extended combos, for the sake of entertaining viewers. Don't get me wrong, I get a dopamine rush when I land a punish into big 8 + combo>CA autopilot, but sometimes I roll my eyes when I know my opponent outplayed me and I landed literally only or 2 or 3 confirms to end him. There is a volley lost in SF6 matches that use to expose the skill gap between two players. People don't see the personality in their characters anymore.
My solution is make normals strong again and scale back the damage on long winded combos. It's Street Fighter, not a Marvel game. Long combos are just for flash and puts the game on auto pilot. Minimal skill is involved in doing a 10 hit combo in this game (lenient inputs).
Shrink the hitboxes and hurt boxes to normal street fighter levels. As it stands right now the hit/hurtboxes are too large, resulting in easier whiff punishes. Someone on here argued "well that's the point, it's suppose to make hit confirms easier to do" like that's a good thing. I didn't have a response to this absurd comment. If I brought back the lowering of the basketball hoop analogy they still wouldn't get it.
Add an invincibility frame to the backdash. It would add a defensive option on wakeup and in the corner, to keep the aggressor thinking about their next attack instead of meaty>throwloop>rinse-repeat.
Ya'll don't hear me though. That's okay. The game isn't getting more interesting to new and old players, but hey, that's okay.
The game is fine
Nerf damage to throw, punish and counter throws. Scale throw loops. Problem solved.
I thought idom went bald , turns out homeboy forehead just the same size as the monitors at EVO
What playing manon does to a mf lol
do you really have to say such shit ?
Them braids too tight
@@Isoshi-47yes because it was. Hilarious you must be bald or balding or got a big forehead
Weak take bruh
It seems majority worldwide want throw loop gone but not japan majority. That is why we don't get any attention from Capcom cause they only eye balling at japans players. Smh
This is a unproven take, interesting take but unproven
why NOt Making Perfect parry activated only in 1 frame and removing throw loop or having throw loop by losing one bar for D rush
I don't think anything unplinkable can be 1 frame. The absolute best setup is going to have >1ms average input delay. The key word is average, because it varies. 2ms makes it a large enough window so it's consistently inside the ever-changing input delay space.
1 frame in online games is hard plus the input delays and all... Pretty much a lottery at that point to perfect parry...
Losing bar after the first throw is good in my opinion
You would just make perfect parry more random essentially and more infuriating to play against. Your opponent probably won't hit the perfect parry at 1 frame, so you have to ignore it. But then your opponent did hit the perfect parry and now you lost the game.
@@duxnihilothe absolute best setup will have atleast 2 whole frames on input delay , that's over 30 ms...
@@IytrrvItru yup
Vid: Xrd is a good game
The numbers Mason, SF6 is a success compared to other SFs why would they change anything, they seem to be doing the right things from a business perspective.
SF2 made more than 10 billions in revenue.
@@chupasaurus 40 years ago...
@@KusanagiMotoko100 It wasn't me who's comparing to other SFs. edit: oh, and '91 wasn't 40 years ago.
I seriously doubt sf6 will sell as much copies as sf4 .
Most of the playerbase will own the game the first year , sf6 currently sitting at 4 million copies , selling 6 more millions is a huge stretch at best .
Sf4 sold 10 m .
Hell , I'd be suprised if sf6 matches the copies sold from sfv
easy to explain hard to execute
Just make drive reversal 3 bars and safe. If you don't want to be in the loop burn your resources.
8:00 actually my bigegst gripe why Strive disappointed so heavily. At least SF6 offers a bit more variance due to the Drive system and the situations you find yourself in but it's still a big issue with modern fighting games.
iDom my GOAT!!!
I love these kizzie interviews
Honestly, if throws loops are so necessary because they counter parry, just give a parry breaker move that ends your offense if blocked but crumples or something if parried. I'd even prefer if throws did, like, twice the damage they do now but couldn't be looped if that meant throw loops are gone.
I mean. You could scale each throw that comes after the first. 100% for the first throw, and it scale the more you throw.
Kinda like how Smash Bros does. The more you do the same move, more and more in a row, the less damage it does.
@@marlinmurrell620 When is it not considered the same move? Like, if I throw and then tick throw, is it the same? If throw, and then play neutral for five seconds with no hits and then get a throw, is it the same?
Genuine question, btw--I don't know Smash rules.
@@theuzi8516i don't think there are tick throws in smash , atleast not like sf tick throws
@theuzi8516 there's no tick throws. But like, if you do a different move like, once, then go back to the other move you were spamming, it'll still be scaled.
I guess you can think of it as a cool down. It'll become unscaled over time.
Just reduce the damage across the board, remove the scaling cap on lvl3s.
Damage is not that high that it needs a across the board damage nerf
@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 there's way too much damage in this game in my opinion.
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034there's definitely way too much damage vs volatility in this game .
If they decide to leave the game be this volatile they need to nerf the damage across the board by atleast 30%
Salty scrubs in the comments blaming throw loops. If a bison plants a bomb on you and you want to turtle down until it detonates there should be repercussions, so hold that throw loop and stop complaining.