Can You SUE for a FALSE Job Reference?
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- Опубликовано: 13 окт 2024
- Job References and "Qualified Privilege"
Disclaimer: Neither this nor any other video, may be taken as legal advice. I accept no liability whatever for any reliance placed upon it.
Founded by Alan Robertshaw and @Blackbeltbarrister
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I left one job on very bad terms due to my questioning working practices that I felt were bordering on illegal. I had been offered 2 jobs and then the companies I was applying to cut all contact with no explanation. I could never prove it but I am sure that the owner of the company I left was giving a bland reference followed by a more explicit phone call. I am sure in my own mind that is why I could not get a regular job. I took contracting work (now known as Zero Hours) in order to get some distance between us. After about a year I started applying for full time jobs again and quickly found one. In the meantime the company I left went bankrupt.
@@michaeleyre174
At least you had the morals to make a decision like that .
Companies often cut corners to save money due to financial difficulties or simply greed . Directors / managers are sometimes distant from the reality of the ‘ shop floor’ environment or indeed office decisions with later consequences.
Just make this a learning experience , become more self sufficient and independent .
The law is all about jurisdiction and contracts. Just like your employment contract you have a contract with the United Kingdom via your birth certificate.
That makes you and everyone liable for the national debt and taxes.
My advice is look at the legal definition of the following, then you may be better prepared in life.
Citizen
Council
Signature
Must
Register
Apply
Consent
Dependant
Parent
Person
Good luck, the law is not quite what it seems to those not literate in legalese . 😉
Well handled.
*Best practice of a company is just to confirm period of employment*
I think that's mostly the status quo in the US these days because between the potential employee and the potential employer, if the results vary significantly from what the reference says, there's the possibility of being sued. It's not just about the accurate, it's also about not saying anything that could lead rise to either party filing suit and that often times the references aren't super helpful anyways as nobody is putting forward references that they think will make them look bad.
I've known people get good references just so their old employer could get rid of them
In which case, can the new employer sue?
Except the opposite happen when good ppl leave bad ppl
@@Frohicky1possibly. But you just let the person go
That was a very common interdepartmental Bbc trick to get people to move onto another part of the building😂
I know of at least one case where an incompetent was given a university degree to get rid of them because they were also a psychopath.
I've had a many years of experience giving references. My company sensibly decided to only providing employment details, confirming start/end dates and roles etc. I could still provide references but they were to be personal without headed paper and the company could only be referenced. A tip regarding references is to ask the new company if a previous employer's statement as I described is sufficient, and if so ask your employer to do that. If they prefer personal references then plan beforehand, ask the reference writer what they will write and suggest it be relatively short and reflect role(s), how the role was performed, attitude and working with others.
Lawyers have taken the law away from the people. It's a disgrace and needs to be corrected.
There was a big hoohah over here in recent weeks regarding glowing references provided for a staff member who the employer knew was under investigation for SA of children. They were subsequently employed by a charity involving children.
The original employer had dismissed the employee when they were under investigation however they went on to provide references. The person was charged and found guilty of the offences and subsequently jailed.
What recourse does the new employer have?
Our First Minister (NI) has been under pressure because of this.
Love the videos as always. I've got a legal question for you I had a long while back. AirBnB do AirCover for hosts, to pay out in the event a guests breaks things like the bed etc. which they feature heavily in their adverts. But they say in the small print that its NOT insurance, and its completely at their discretion and not subject to appeal to Financial Services Ombudsman etc. Can a copy advertise a scheme that is all intense and purposes insurance and then say in their small print it isn't, and in effect exclude themselves from any of the legal baggage associated with offering insurance. Seems fishy to me. Maybe Dan could help with this one with all his recent insurance woes.
I once found an online CV for one of my work colleagues.
It made Lord of the Rings look like a true story.
About the only true thing in his CV was his name and address.
It was crazy.
I was told years later he got a job on the strength of it.
Very useful for employers and employees alike. Thanks.
Here's another one for you:
The Butlin's toilets case (trans rights + reasonable expectation of privacy + security susoended + incitement to complain or harass)
If I lied to the police about a crime, I'd be prosecuted for Perverting the Course of Justice. Why can't I be sued?
As a TU Secretary I dealt with several cases where a serious conflict had arisen between employer and employee and to avoid going into procedures an'agreed reference' was provided by the employer .The employee had opted to seek employment elsewhere before the inexorable procedures were entered into.I had to act in the interests of our Member, regardless of any personal feelings which I might have had.I did my job.
Never mind the hedge, that wall in the background of your excellent video is to be ogled at with appreciation 😊❤ thank you for the video, lots of love xxx
I am in a bit of a pickle. I was dismissed by my former employer for gross misconduct. The situation is more complex, but I digress. This former employer went on to refer me to the DBS who have been considering barring me from working with children and vulnerable adults as I previously worked with kids. This former employer then went to give me a reference for my current job. I spoke with a union rep about the DBS referral wondering if I could get some legal assistance from the union. However they said I can't however this same useless union rep went to go tell my work about my DBS issue and I potentially will be sacked now because I didn't disclose to my current employer that I was dismissed by my former employer. My question is, shouldn't my current employer take action against my former employer for not disclosing my dismissal in the reference they gave for me instead of just coming after me?
Can you sue a solicitor for signing your name without your consent, that’s what I’d like to know.
That’s fraud
If you were harmed as a result then I would think that would be a pretty straightforward case. If you weren't harmed, you can still report them to the SRA for professional disciplinary action.
Yes.
But what damage did it cause?
@@Liberty_Freedom_Brotherhood
Loss of a house left in a will and business , the cost of moving and renting, the loss as I also requested being paid in gold not worthless FIAT and being denied that choice by my solicitor ( as a beneficiary and creditor for the forced sale I understand I can choose how I would be paid) .
. Being a layperson and dyslexic with learning difficulties at the time and everything legal being new to me it was all a minefield .
In my opinion solicitors are totally evil and don’t actually care about the outcome of a case . You just have to look at the recent’ public rebellion’ where protesters were told to plead guilty for media propaganda to see the corruption.
As with the banking system , Politics and media the judiciary is coming under the spotlight for it’s flaws and use of deception via legalese . What a weird and disturbing rabbit hole the world has become. 😵💫😉
@@thomasdalton1508 thanks I understand that , personally I would have thought because I’d signed a legal agreement for a solicitor to represent me their contract would have got them jurisdiction as I was a layperson ie unfit to represent myself.
All in the legalese as far as I’m aware.
I also wouldn’t trust the SRA either.
@@newagetemplar6100 They shouldn't be signing your name on anything. They may sign their own name on your behalf if you've authorised them to represent you, but if something needs your personal signature then they have to get you to sign it.
I had an ancestor who was jailed for 3 months hard labour for providing a false job reference - this was in 1840 Scotland.
I’ve got a query , your working for home whist you’re on a fit note by doctor. On the fit note the doctor states work from home if the person can. After a certain amount of time, the employer ask the person back. The person is not well enough to come back. But employer gaslight the person by guilt tripping to come back. The person returned back to work, but the injury got worse and is struggling to drive to work and to generally walk around .
Sue!
I assume then that if someone gives a personal reference for a former colleague seeking a job with another company, and you say they are really good, because they are a mate. If it then turns out that person is terrible , and you knew that, you could not be sued for giving a false reference as you can say that it is your opinion.
Very interesting - but even more interesting is the reverse: the giving of a reference that is untrue. It's current now in Northern Ireland where two Sinn Féin members gave a reference to the British Heart Foundation for a job applicant there which omitted a crucial fact: that the applicant, Michael McGonagle, was up on a charge of child sexual abuse. He subsequently pleaded guilty and is awaiting sentence. The SF First Minister says she didn't know that McMonagle was in Stormont at a BHF function despite photo evidence that shows him within ten feet of her. The BHF is none too pleased, but could they sue over the reference?
This framing is terrifying haha, with the slightly wide angle lens and you at the edge of the frame, so still, and the consistent yet receding background, it reads like a horror film shot. So dramatic!
I use that 'rule of thirds' quite a lot. So I try to position myself so my eyes are on the intersection of the vertical and horizontal lines. And I do like a bit of receding lines. That spot on Pentire with the islands is great for that because of the strata in the rocks.
I was hired years ago for lab job in fla
With good references son to support
After 2 weeks i was told by supervisor he was so sorry but the owners daughter was coming home from college and needed a job..??
Had I had money would have sued.
Ive had a horrible time at employment in a small town
Ive been bullied by a supervisor
Called at 3 ,4 oo in the morning by drunken supervisorits all been horrible
Im still at 84 alittle hurt to say the least.
By lying woman in Dr's offices
To get you fired having been an excellent employee following rules while others did not.
Ive been offered jobs by great drs.
But maybe should have taken.instead
Its all a hurtful memory
But still wondering why..?
You'll be extremely lucky to get him working for you!
Regarding bad job references, if someone has lost some number of job offers following references (that is they were offered the job subject to references but the job offer was subsequently recinded) and they got a friend to contact their referees asking for a reference and to pass the references on to them. If they found that one of the referees sent a factually untrue reference, is the court likely to find that sufficiently persuasive that a reasonable person would conclude that similarly inaccurate references had been sent to the actual prospective employers so putting the burden on the referee to show that they had not and it was purely by chance that the reference they saw was factually inaccurate?
Everywhere I've worked individual managers have not been permitted to send out references, instead they had to pass the request on to HR who would then send a reference based on the HR record of the person, the references would be very bare bones and only confirm their employment dates, job title and if they had any active disciplinary penalties at the time. I presume that in such a situation the question of an honest mistake would be harder to claim as a HR officer would be reasonably expected to be accurate in handling HR information.
Can you do a video about bullying at work and when does not dealing with it could be considered constructive dismal or similar?
I had a case where a very senior fire officer told me in an interview that the fire was caused by a certain named product product from a brand.
I reproduced this in a News item and the company tried to take action against us but we claimed privilege 😅
Great video, thanks!
Tortuous interference.
Very interesting and very useful. Thank you. What if an employer provides a reference to a prospective employer and omits to include a relevant fact such as the employee was arrested and admitted to a serious criminal offence?
I always though ignorance wasn't an excuse in law. As an example; I didn't know I speeding because I hadn't read the road signs amounts to ignorance & will not free you from the impending consequences. So to say I wasn't aware it was false when I wrote or said that thing because I hadn't done my due diligence in checking amounts to ignorance so why is ignorance an acceptable excuse in law in these set of circumstances.
I’m not going to give a reference from someone I know will be harmful.
What happens if the employer fails to disclose information to the new employer, as I had heard that someone got a excellent reference, when this person was far from that, but did it to get rid of them when they said they were leaving.
You can give a reference stating that they were employed, from -to and say nothing else. If the person wasn’t ideal. And let the future employer make of that, as they wish. Add we would gladly rehire, if the person was a good, employee, so keep it plain and simple.
@@alanfairbrother890 A lot of companies give references like this as a matter of course, regardless of whether you are rubbish or fantastic, because they dont want to be implicated either way if things go tits up.
Streisand effect!
I would be interested to hear your opinion on the use of Norwich Pharmacal orders in the context of defamation and anonymous complaints. Lots of organisations these days, and I’m thinking mostly of the kind of organisations that could be loosely described as clubs, have anonymous complaints procedures. And situations will occur where an individual make a complaint about another individual under a strict condition of anonymity but the nature of the complaint is so serious the organisers feel compelled to act.
In these situations occasionally a person will be thrown out and told “there’s been a complaint about you we’re throwing you out and you’re not allowed to know what the complaint is.” You would think this would be really rare but I’m aware of at least one instance where this has happened. Obviously you can’t force them to tell you under GDPR however my understanding is Norwich Pharmacal orders can be used in these situations. In fact the typical use of a Norwich Pharmacal order is to identify someone who has potentially committed defamation by forcing a third-party who may be innocent to divulge relevant information.
so I’m curious if my understanding of the Norwich Pharmacal order is correct. Would it not apply to a bad job reference? Would it apply to an anonymous complaint? (because every anonymous complaint is potentially a malicious and defamatory complaint)
Ive done a vid on norwich pharmacals, or whatever theyre now called, but maybe time for a new one. The problem is you first have to identify an actionable cause. And you wouldnt know that unless and until you got the reference. So its a bit of a catch 22, but generally courts arent keen on fishing expeditions.
I think the judge got that wrong or the law is wrong, if the referee did not know that the disciplinary was ongoing they should not have mentioned it. It is obvious that such a disclosure would have a serious impact on a job application and as such there is or should be a duty of care!
Could the person claim negligence instead, on the basis that the referee had a duty to be accurate?
Since they don't have an obligation to provide a reference at all I would have though that was unlikely. Also, providing a reference is not part of your contract of employement.
I might do a follow up on negligent misstatement. Meant to mention it in this one.
I wonder if the prospective employer would have any claim for losses due to missing out on a very good employee. Lost business opportunities and the extra costs of continuing the recruitment process.
Possibly. There have been cases where a new employer has successfully sued a previous employer for providing a good reference when actually they knew the employee had committed a serious offence or similar. I suppose you could try it the other way around.
Asks Sinn Fein
Was the complaint from someone working for a hedge fund? 🤣
Have you got any pictures of you in full barrister's fig?
If you agreed the wording of the reference with your employer prior to leaving, could you sue if they don't use that wording?
What if a reference is provided that is full of factual holes. Would a case for common law negligence be possible? (obviously you would to go through the usual hoops - duty of care, breach of d of c and loss/damage due to the breach of d of c)
Fascinating as always.
If defamation was made at a place of work in 2018 and this impacted the person for the past 6 years, is there a timelimit to take the matter to court.
One year limitation for defamation.
@@artmedialaw thanks for the response.
@@artmedialaw I tool another look at it, yes its 1 year unless, there is an exceptional reason you can give to judge. Most judges encourage you, to sort it out yourselfs.
Hi Mr Robertshaw, I have an absolute stinker of a case that would make for good material for you, how can I send this to you? PS, I joined your channel last week but when I click on your videos it doesn't say that I have joined?
Think i just got your emails!
@@artmedialaw I haven't sent any yet, I've just checked and for some reason I wasn't a member, but just clicked join and gone through the process and now a channel member.
It used to be the shorter the reference the better.
In reference to the Archers, George got 1 year for dangerous driving 2 years for pervert in the course of justice. I think 2 years was a very soft sentence. Your thoughts please. I’m sure the research was good.
I'll check this out!
He’ll probably sound like a completely different actor by the time he gets out.
I’d really love to know if ignorance is an excuse in law as in my previous comment. It would make for a really good video understanding when ignorance is & isn’t an acceptable defence in law.
I have done a video on this.
But in summary, it's only ignorance of the criminal law. Ignorance of civil law, or of the factual situation as opposed to the legal one can be a defence.
@@artmedialaw Thanks I’ll have a look at that.
what about TSB vs Harris?
Is that a north face jumper?
Superdry. Six quid in the charity shop.
You haven't done a video on this topic, I hope it's because it's a very rare thing.
Let's say you were disabled and required carers and this was set up by social services.
You had different carers in the past and had no problems. You were having different carers in the evening with no problem.
Anyway disputes arose, the disabled persons side was upheld by other professionals. Next they accuse the client of lewd behaviour saying they now need two people to act to safeguard the carer. Adding costs to the tax payer and giving them extra income.
Here's the rub the social services won't give the details of the incident saying Data Protection won't allow it. This stops the accused from being able to defend himself.
Any opinions??
Hi, how can I email you a couple of questions about an employment case?