Envy of Your Icon: Contrapoints and Audience Alienation | Lite Writes
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- How do audiences become envious of someone they used to adore? We take a look at how 'Opulence' reads to audiences and how Natalie Wynn or Contrapoints became a cautionary tale of this phenomenon of new left wing culture, cancel culture and breadtube.
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The fact that this video was released a short time before Contrapoints video about "Envy" is stunningly coincidental. Natalie's video on envy is so interesting considering this video's dance around the idea that MAYBE, just MAYBE these alienated people are just plain envious of her but refuses to acknowledge it. Oops.
It's probably not coincidental, the video title got leaked months ago
i legit thought it was a analysis on the Envy video :D :D
This was YT suggestion after I watched ENVY LoL!!!
when I was whatching the 'envy video' for a long time I was like "ok is she gonna adress the rich passable tran situation or not" and I was very glad she did
YES.
This video just feels......dishonest.
It's kinda just going for some hot take.
Which is why I love Natalie's videos.....they are NOT hot takes. They are considered. Very considered. I value that.
I always thought the reasons why some leftists didn't like Contra was because she's not so dogmatically attached to certain ideologies, she's more willing to critique said ideologies and that she has a more empathic approach to understanding her opposition, even when she's ultimately against what that opposition represents.
Agreed. I find it refreshing when people genuinely do consider the other side. At the very least it teaches you where the holes in your own logic are. That doesn't mean actually embracing the stances of the other side, but it makes for sounder arguments and it builds empathy
THIS
When you live in Manhattan and go for a camping trip
the silence is deafening
Exactly! That's also the reason her channel is good. It's not a leftist screaming jargon at you it feels like a debate club dialogue and leftist ideas emerge because they're right
She’s the critical thinker’s breath of fresh air
I also noticed a shift in how her videos are delivered. I found myself not really that interested in debates, multiple characters or theatrics anymore. In her newest video she literally has a segment where she does her makeup and it's incredibly entertaining, it feels almost comforting. The constant stream of (well researched) information is what is keeping me glued to the screen. And of course I would squeal with excitement if I saw Tabby, but I also see that it's not mandatory for the topic to be discussed. Also (and it's not directed at the author of this video) I don't get why people bring up her income as evidence of her being a 'class traitor'. Like, this is a one woman show, with several different sets she builds herself, with mountains of books that a regular person reads in a year at least, with huge script, technical stuff, editing. She's singlehandedly creating a full feature length film every couple of months. We're getting this all for free, paying isn't an obligation. If she made any less for the amount of work she does that would be actually shocking. And that's also where the envy comes in
Based
And this is my issue with a lot of her "radical" leftist critics and leftist communities in general. There's this sense of betrayal anytime anyone reaches a modicum of success and power where the rest of the community scrutinises everything, and most of the complaint are unsubstantial or nitpicks, however these communities always escalate them to the highest degree.(ie. the class traitor thing) There's this sense of martyrdom that the best "activist, writer or thinker" are the ones who toils in obscurity and hardship, suffering in poverty. It's such an acute victim complex it's excruciating to see.
@@robertolie6798 Yes socialist feelings are more often rooted in envy rather than compassion. Compassion is a part of it, but the correlation between the two is much lower than envy. And I think the envious are more likely to be loud than the compassionate, which makes the discourse that much worse.
I'm a left wing American but I have to admit that conservatives/Republicans are much better at messaging. The far left repulses the public and that turns a lot of normal people into more reactionary conservatism. A ton of conservative rhetoric nowadays is playing to that fear of the far left. "Biden, you'll be controlled by the socialists in your party" sort of messaging. Radicals want a socialist revolution. Even seemingly less extreme people like Contrapoints hint that that is their ideal end goal. People fear that and fear is a strong force in politics.
she’s actually not doing it singlehandedly - she has at least one co writer and i believe a few production crew members. So the income generated by her videos is being split between several people.
@@robertolie6798 kulak
I am NOT even close to tired of Contrapoints. I have been watching since 2016, and I am still so excited when a new video comes out. It is a whole event/experience for me!
Same.
I was a young, doe eyed, sheltered Christian woman when I saw her videos. There was something odd about her which drew me to her, despite her being something I was taught to hate. I watched her in secret and just BINGED her stuff. Her Incels video was new and I couldn't believe the amazing arguments she made.
Natalie was just a piece of the puzzle that changed my views and how I saw the LGBTQ+ community. I'm so happy she is still working on her videos.
Same here. Her aesthetic may have changed, and may change still further, and I may not agree with her 100% of the time, but she always makes me laugh and gives me a lot to think about.
Same! Actually the end of the video flew totally over my head.
Getting tired of creators once you realize what their trick is?
I am totally the opposite. Once the creator finds their style I'm on board. I have harder time watching channels that are all over the place.
SAME
Sincere is the word that comes to mind too. So many people talk about her without considering how hard it is to create things as incredible (and hilarious) as she does. It's frustrating the way the very things that make Contrapoints such an effective channel-the ability to communicate complex, nuanced ideas to a wide range of people-make it such an easy target.
You know, I think a huge problem with thoes reactions agains her are: a) envy - Contrapoints has grown and one of most influencial trans people thanks to her chanel, and frankly, lot of people won’t foregive you for succes.
B) the mon mentality of the internet these days. People are always on the lookout for the next witch to burn. They are reading into videos and tweets something that is not there (like Lindsey Elis and her Raya Tweet beeing taken as a proof of anti asian sentiments when... sheeeesh, that is totaly not what she has expressed). In fact in these witch hunts, people on the left often do something much similar to what people on the right- they approach these media only to make them selves assured of what they already tought - and that is idea that all the succesful people are bad... and, sorry, hun, but we are all people. You too do mistakes, so sit down, Jeez..
You know I wonder if the original "fan" audience also feels betrayed because she has shown that she is willing to challenge their ideas as well as those of whom they deam as "bad". With ENVY I had the feeling "oh shit this one is about me" and I could see how that could turn away an audience who is already tired of the constant pressure of self reflection. I guess for me it's just refreshing to see someone point out we are all people and all have a capacity to do wrong.
im kinda glad she spaces out her uploads because her videos tire my mind in a way that no other commentary channels do, in a good way. it's like a workout for the brains
Yeah envy for sure hit me hard, and I could just feel myself wanting to get angry at her about it. Very interesting stuff
I’d call myself an original “fan” and I love the growth she has had. I don’t know why people don’t want people to grow and improve themselves. Like how dare she make money then spend it on herself in ways that make her happy. I love the old videos and I love the new ones.
I've been a subscriber since she had like 5k subs. Her video on fatphobia was when I came in. It doesn't exist anymore. It must've been at least 2016, maybe 2015?.
I love that she challenges everyone's ideas... or well... she challenges your underlying emotions. I feel that's more relevant than just your ideas.
'The left' was the first video in which she really took aim at her own audience. Idk I've always appreciated it a lot. Self-reflection is kinda my jam. Making sense of my own feelings is hard for me, because of autism, so I overanalyze.
Envy didn't feel like it was about me, but 'cringe' hit pretty hard (saying this as a fellow trans), and she said something about doomscrolling and 'whatever hurts is true'. She just says a lot of things that hit and I appreciate that a lot.
Love this comment!
Natalie couldn't ever win. If she didn't up the production of her videos, people would say that she wasn't using the money from patreon properly. And she even said in a video that she like set design and mood lighting and I don't think she was being sarcastic. Natalie likes making content from the writing to the costumes to the wigs to the set. It's all part of the creative process and if people are turned off by creators like Natalie or Abigail having the ability to do the things they have clearly always wanted to do, then there really isn't any winning for them.
And it’s their loss
Well… I‘d say she can‘t win with everyone. As far as I can tell she gained many, many new fans even when she was cancelled (figuratively) in a very petty way.
i haven't really any stakes in the game, but i thought contrapoints' buck angel cameo came from a place of tolerance and understanding.
buck angel wasn't even a terf, he was debatably trans-medicalist, and he was from an older generation where his beliefs were revolutionary. He's a complex figure to be sure, and I'm in no way defending his statements and beliefs, but he doesn't deserve to be labelled as irredeemable?
marginalized left wing figures are always held up to such impossible standards. they're expected to represent their entire community by constantly revising and updating their ideas to the latest twitter-approved models. no individual can ever represent an entire community, and it's so uncomfortable to watch, esp when non-marginalized figures aren't nearly held to the same standards. it must be really terrifying being a leftist content creator in such an unforgiving environment. xD
Very this! I understand that some might not understand my anxieties with the current way some treat artists/creators, but unfortunately I'm still rather terrified of the trajectory it appears to be going. I don't like seeing leftist content creators have breakdowns on twitter for arguably unimportant mini-transgressions, and as we've seen these events leave their scars.
I think you are understating it a bit, he works with terfs and transphobes often and recently signed some letter with other trans men called 'trans men fight back' attacking trans women. I never really cared that Contrapoints included him in a video but he is definitely is setting trans people back a lot and transmisogynistic (and I say this as someone who isn't a trans woman and think complaints about that are generally overblown.)
@@EldritchX yeah i've only recently heard abt his transmisogyny and it's genuinely awful.
@@bootstraphan6204 You do realize that Natalie doesn't have some daytime job to fall back on for income right? She produces one video a month and sometimes skips a month. Not all of her videos are monetized. The amount of time she puts into writing the scripts and producing the videos is huge. In addition to that, the popularity of RUclips channels is very transitory. Do you think her RUclips career is going to lead to some opportunity in the future as a middle age transgender woman? Probably not. In any case, expecting her to donate everything to charity is rather unrealistic. I don't begrudge her success.
@@bootstraphan6204 When you donate through Patreon is clear that you are supporting the creation of the content you're watching. Unless she'd have said that the money would be donated, I don't see why she should give the money away. Go donate to charity instead of a RUclipsr, if that's what you want.
I'm far from being tired of Natalie, if anything I admire her more and more and find my self stunned how much she influences my life.
i think it's important to remember the twitter user statistic from voting when we say people have "become tired" of people like contrapoints' videos. I reckon the majority still really enjoy her, as do i, and it's the loudness of her detractors that we always look to - as does she.
I do reckon a lot of her audience is somewhat envious oddly enough. We all dream of the beauty, the moët and the followers so it's easy to instantly criticise even the quickest misstep she does. I think ur video is incredible tjo
She still has 1.42m subs, so imma go with a solid yes
Absolutely. The "fandom" of any channel or show or whatever, those constantly posting on twitter and shit, is always a pretty small minority of the people who enjoy the channel or show or whatever.
the majority have never and will never hear about her. The "majority" is like a 40 year old suburban mom who likes Biden but thinks Bernie is a communist
@@appa609 Majority here as in majority of her viewers, not the majority of people on the planet.
Nervous as hell to release this, but let's see how this video turns out...
Update: Guess who found out about Buck Angel's 'Trans Men Fight Back' letter? God this video is aging very strangely.
EDIT: Her new video is literally on Envy and I am shook and confused and a little amused at the sheer unlikelihood at this happening! Thank you for the little algorithmic boost I guess!
Final notation: I don't think some people got that these observations are not necessarily me calling out and denouncing Natalie myself, she's literally one of my favourite creators. I've instead taken stock of other people's observations and tried to see their viewpoint. Could've done that a bit more explicitly sure, but yeah this isn't my critique of her, moreover a report about her "haters". :)
Spoiler: It turned out great. :D
Thought this was a very interesting video, and certainly I can understand your trepidation over releasing it and posting it to CP reddit! In my personal opinion I think your initial observation was probably the most pertinent... the idea of class separation and simply the lifestyle gap that opens up between creator and audience. I'm from the UK and we have a LONG history in traditional media of building people up then tearing them down, in the US I think there is more a culture of valuing celebrities so maybe it's not so common. But with youtube you have this added factor of the para-social relationship (moreso than within the traditional media celebrity sphere). Concerning Natalie and Abigale their more complex production was also an outward sign of this increased status, the ability to spend more considerably more on production than most people could. Although these creators do experience a lot of hate and personal attacks, on the flip side they also receive much love and validation. It's likely that many of the people attracted to their content are themselves lonely, without support or struggling with life issues (especially in CP case) and seeing these rich, talented, smart, beautiful can genuinely become quite painful, they live in worlds where one really starts to doubt their ability to empathize - and therefore I think people become very sensitive to things they say and do. Consciously many of us "know" that being a affluent celebrity doesn't mean you can't feel lonely or unhappy, but at the same time given the choice most people would probably switch places with them in a heartbeat - not so sure that's true in the other direction.
I'm not sure the "seeing behind the curtain" and "giving away the secrets" thing is true for everyone, I certainly don't think of it that way... I think that is possibly more personal for you, maybe 'cos of your age and where you happen to be personally in your relationship with youtube creators. Like I said, I think it's mostly motivated by the "you're no longer like me" resentment you mentioned to begin with. I even experience this occasionally, sometimes one of them will make a comment which is feel is a little tone-deaf considering their situation. It also bugs me a bit that the bread-tube "inner-circle" always support each other and do cameos in each others videos, but they rarely if ever bother to try giving exposure to a leg up to smaller creators on the platform - it starts to feel like a high-school "clique". There's a lot of great creators out there who are struggling to get a few thousand views and for whom one small feature could be a massive boost. Thought Slime has his eyeball zone, which I think is great, but just doing a few voice lines of a reference to a video could make a massive difference to some creators. But the fact they always appear in each others videos rather makes it feel like an exclusive club that others aren't welcome to. I'm not saying I can entirely blame them, it's easier to feature people you know are vetted and accepted than take a risk featuring someone less known who may say something to get you cancelled. But it all add to this image of self-interest and elitism which has slowly built up around them.
Anyway, sry for the long comment. Thought you presented your video really well and you narrate very clearly. So happy you made it out of the alt-right mindset... I often wonder if I had grown up in the gamer gate/Trump era whether I wouldn't have fallen into that trap, it's very appealing to younger guys. Back in the day I was anti-PC myself (although the focus very different back then). It would be really great if you're able to use that experience and your understanding to try and help others... imo it's one of the biggest problems we have today, and there's plenty of Tim Pools, Teal Dears, Sargons, Rags prepared to lie to reinforce idiotic beliefs. You have the invaluable experience of understanding that mindset and maybe, more than most, the potential to find the right way to start coaxing people out of it.
Great video, keep up the good work. Take care.
@@oldmangamer8656 They did used to feature other, smaller creators sometimes, but as you say I think they're afraid of supporting unknown people and getting cancelled by association. Even so I don't love the blatant nepotism that's emerged instead. It's kinda obnoxious!
@@alexm4421 Yeah exactly, while I can rationalize their probable reasoning, it doesn't change the fact that when I see it, it looks "urrrgh!" If Thought Slime can feature a different channel every week with no problems, surely these giants could feature 2-3 a year in some way. Some criticize them for being socialist leaning while also being rich, which I think it utter BS... but I don't think it looks great when they give them impression of only caring about protecting their incomes (not like getting "cancelled" seems to affect that much anyway). It just looks elitist and self-interested, it's bad optics, as they say.
"shook, confused, and a little amused" has major "I'm a poet and I didn't know it" energy.
I’ve loved Natalie’s videos for a few years now and it’s not even for the opulent aesthetics, it’s only a little bit for the hard work and research- it’s how balanced she is talking about her topics. It really does feel like it’s 1 am in a smoking area and someone very bright just opens up about a topic. And I’ve adopted this approach of empathy and either successfully changed peoples minds or at least made someone think about what they were talking about. And it’s harder to do that in the length of a tweet or in written word it is easier when talking where humour, cynicism and honesty can come through
Maybe it's because I started following her when she was relatively very small (can't remember exactly but in the region of thousands of subscribers rather than hundreds of thousands), and while not actively following her was at least aware of her as far back as her edgy RUclips atheist days, but I've never really been in either the flawless goddess or irredeemable grifter camp. Maybe that's more common than it seems and those are just louder, idk.
To me she's always just been a person on the internet who makes work I usually like and find thought provoking, and while as flawed as anyone else, does have good intentions with her work and activities (insofar as that's possible for me to tell as a complete stranger). I guess I also see her as an artist first and foremost rather than an activist, even though her work has some of that, which seems to confuse the way people read it. For example, I think part of the bad reaction to The Aesthetic was people attempting to take away a concrete message from it about what people should do or whatever, whereas what I got from it was primarily an artistic expression of despair; a nightmare vision of the internal conflict of trying to be true to yourself in a world that hates you.
You said this beautifully
@@user-rs1wc9qs3n Thank you!
This resonates a lot with me. I don't know anyone else out there who is quite so self-ironic, who toys with the balance of being serious and also silly, who constantly acknowledges that it's ironic how much she's expected to represent her community while simultaneously being attacked by it and who weighs in on topics in a differentiated and patient way.
I also had similar feelings about Aesthetic - especially as a currently closeted, pre-transition trans dude, it resonated with all the internal conflicts I had about security in my identity internally vs externally. I don't follow leftists creators on twitter for my sanity (lol) so I had no idea there was such a fuss around it for ages.
Aha, I think if people start worshipping you, you're in trouble, because there's bound to be backlash. Just an observation.
The backlash against The Aesthetic was so strange to me, because when I initially watched it, I felt much more compelled by Tabby's final arguments and came away feeling like she had 'won' the debate
Right! But I guess it does again boil down to whether we listen to what people are actuallysaying, or listening how they're saying it
Exactly! I totally thought Tabby had great points and actually agreed with her more. Especially when it made Justine angry when Tabby made the argument about how being her being a woman can never be taken from her, and how Justine will always feel her gender invalidated by anyone who doesn't see her as a woman.
In essence, Tabby is more confident in her womanhood than Justine is. and it makes Justine envious and contemptible that someone can be so comfortable in their identity without tacit approval of society.
Natalie is such a deep & empathetic person, she puts so much work into her videos, & people project so many expectations onto her after she's done so well. They hold her to such a high standard & are absolutely cruel if she makes anything they perceive as an error (mistake). She's not willing to pick just one ideology because she understands that all belief systems have both good & bad & are sometimes more or less useful. She "doesn't take a stand" they are bothered by that. She takes a stand they disagree with -then all her good work is disregarded & they see her as the enemy or blame her for speaking out on something out of place. She tries to drawn in centrists & others through empathetic ways that are effective & they deem her contaminated & become intolerent. She didn't ask for that, she is just trying to do good the best she can using her most adept skills. She deserves for people to see that in good faith & support her with the kindness she shows
This is a very good video, but I think the crux of it is really what you touch upon later. I don't think her audience is feeling alienated because of her wealth, her aesthetics, or anything of the sort. They are alienated because the left cannot confederate like the right can. The right is about adherence - our heroes are our heroes regardless of what they do. Trump and other right wing heroes can say something wrong, and it's ok because we follow the hierarchy.
The left is very often anti-hierarchical. But people still want heroes and I think they form that parasocial relationship. They put them on a pedestal. But if perfection is a requirement of heroics, there really can't be heroes on the left because there are no people who are sinless. No one alive is perfect because - to some - collaborating with Buck Angel is an egregious sin, others it is not. And suddenly, those who think it is egregious feel it necessary to convince those who think it is not egregious that she must not be a hero.
The left lacks the adherence mechanism that allows them to do this automatically like the right can. So-called cancel culture is the closest thing. And so those calls to cancel become louder in attempt to convince everyone of the righteousness of their cause.
I think you did touch upon it with your reference to them having to make the disclaimer that they aren't sinless, but I believe that is the core of it. They can tell those people that put them on a pedestal that they aren't perfect, but those people are already idolizing them. As soon as Natalie gained enough notoriety and publicity in the mainstream, her life fell under a microscope. Her fan base became large enough and consumed enough to closely examine her every move, and strident enough to demand she be torn down when they believe she has made an error or "betrayed" them with her ideology. And since parasocial relationships mirror normal relationships, it can feel like a breakup when the viewer perceives this.
After all, the same thing that allows them to form a parasocial relationship with her is the same mechanism that allows them to dehumanize her. She's just a thing on a screen, it's not as acute as a normal breakup, but toxic nonetheless. I think that's why we see it repeated again and again with folks like Lindsay Ellis.
agree
+++
GREAT way to put it, thank you.
Well said. Was just about to comment something the same. The worst enemy of the left is too often the left.
Very well said!
The way Natalie delivers her arguments is that of traditional parliamentary debater (as in competitive debate, not British politics lol). It always has tie backs, unravels deadlocks, and anticipates rebuttals. What makes her arguments so effective is the "even ifs". "Even if person A was right about this, my point still stands, and here's why...". And yes, punches of humor are also great in competitive debates.
I briefly checked in on a couple of "breadtube" creators' subreddits six months ago and didn't stick around. The parasocial vibe there was off the charts. People talking about the creators and using their first names and speculating about who was annoyed with who and who wasn't friends any more, just... why are you all talking about these random people's personal lives? What gives you the right and why do you care?
I have no skin in the game of who likes who and who confessed to having Wrong Thoughts and who didn't use the exact right words. I watch all these videos for free, and I can find out for myself if a creator is a Secret Bigot. Let me know if someone commits an actual *crime*, otherwise just stop watching.
The list of places to avoid when it comes to discussions around leftists creators is as follows 1) Twitter 2) Reddit 3) everywhere else
I... Just really like Natalie. I don't care how many times she's been canceled. Because I know she's not a malicious person. She's hugely empathetic to EVERYONE; including those that I feel may not always deserve it.
She makes me want to be a better person. I want to learn more from her perspectives. I want to be FRIENDS with her.
But I'm old. I hate the way so many people hide away in their own tiny, TINY little niche communities, and often end up becoming more and more radical. I hate "cancel culture." If someone doesn't represent you PERFECTLY, they don't deserve their platform.
It stops being about the general message, like "Stop being scared and bigoted to LGBTQ+ people," and instead becomes, "Every aspect of yourself that you show to the world must be perfectly aligned to my beliefs, and the beliefs held by my very small niche community. If you don't align with us perfectly, you are a TRAITOR and you deserve to burn in hell."
People seem to forget that not one of us is perfect. Not even us, the viewers (gasp!). And one person's beliefs cannot perfectly align to literally any one group: not the left, not the right, not any one of LGBTQ+s, not tumblr feminists, not twitter gays, not twitter trans, not ANYTHING. Can we please realise that, again?
And we need to stop simplifying objections down, like the example of which this video gave, near the end. Context matters. In fact, context is near everything. If you see or hear, "Natalie Wynn is a TERF," you should probably personally check how they came to that conclusion. And perhaps even add clarification, in the replies. Because context is important.
A lot of people see or hear something, and take it as fact, or even repeat it - but it's rarely that simple. And we need to use critical thinking skills to make sure we're not narrowing (radicalising) our worldviews further. It's not healthy. It's not beneficial. It gives you a false sense of community, and worse, a false sense of knowing and understanding the "opposition." You know how to know the opposition? Listening to them.
I know a lot of people claim that this is harmful to their mental health, but is it, really? Or are you just using avoidance as a way to prevent working on your mental health? Avoidance isn't a cure; it's a delay. Almost all forms of therapy require us to slowly, in a more guided fashion (when we're ready and willing), expose ourselves to our triggers / traumas, so they eventually have less of a hold on us. So that we can eventually return to some kind of normalcy, eg: to work, to life, to society, as a whole.
If we avoid, we only give our triggers / traumas more power over us.
We have to expose ourselves to things we may not like. And if we want to "defeat" the "opposition," we have to know how they actually think and feel. We can't do that, if we only hide away in our own tiny, niche communities.
One problem I’ve noticed is that the online Left in particular has confused capitalism and wealth inequality with….. a person being financially successful.
It’s a sort of self-righteous “tall poppy” effect. Becoming financially stable is actually a form of being a class traitor - even if none of your wealth comes from exploiting workers.
So, Natalie becoming successful and “unrelatable” and “financially privileged” is enough of a reason to dislike or mistrust her. It’s really weird, and the Left needs to stop this weird self-sabotage so that we can focus on the real problems that we’re facing.
Like, trust me - a person who is making $100,000 or even $500,000 per year is probably not the cause of global food insecurity. I’d even venture to say that people with million-dollar businesses aren’t necessarily the problem.
And also yes, you’re very right about the weird “religious” vibe that the online Left perpetuates.
Being in enough Leftbook fb groups and seeing enough Twitter dumpster fires has really soured my taste, and understanding the features of cult-like dynamics turned me off entirely.
Reading Nietzsche’s Genealogy of Morals really put the nail in the coffin, though.
I’m still a leftist because of my political and economic and social views, but I can’t say that I can find the same sense of camaraderie that I used to. I’m afraid of what might happen if somebody deems me “ideologically impure”
Yeah! And it's not even the millionaires we have to keep in check, but the BILLIONAIRES. Problem is, the billionaires tend to exploit people by proxy. It's other people doing their bidding.
Yeah it's really annoying, since conservatives will accuse lefties of just being envious and spiteful of anyone more successful than them. And I'd like that to be an easily disprovable strawman, but, like, time and time again, lefties do the worst thing you can do: prove conservatives right.
This is why I hate most western leftist discourse. I'm not from any part of the west but nonetheless I like to broaden my knowledge, but it seems like if I don't know enough then I'm a 'grifter' or something. Having nuanced views seems so impossible because online political discourse is all-round toxic. Whatever, I'm just gonna waste less time online circlejerks and help out marginalised people in my community instead 😌
"Tired of Contrapoints"?
More like "There's not enough videos by Contrapoints" xd
When watching Natalie or Lindsay, I get so into it, I feel genuinely frustrated when I run out of content to watch in their channels.
But that's me. I guess there might be some disagreement here.
Yeeessss. I don't feel tired by their videos at all. I came because I love their ideals and I feel like I come away every time with an even deeper understanding or ideas that I haven't contemplated fully. Like I didn't even know what a lolcow even was (and I grew up on the internet) until I saw Natalie's video on Cringe. It was absolutely fascinating.
This video is really well done. aS a ciS gAy mAn I understood "The Aesthetic" in a way I think Natalie would have intended or approved (Tabby is never incorrect or in the wrong, she just isn't accessible to anyone to the right of leftists; Justine understands that there is no persuasion without accessibility, but not that you don't (or shouldn't) have to change yourself or your beliefs to appeal to others) but also see how the video failed to set the tone for that interpretation (instead coming off as Justine deconstructing Tabby's perspective) and for this reason I recommend that video to be watched after all of Natalie's other gender videos. Her newest video "Envy" really complements this video quite well (that's been said a lot I'm sure though). Great job!
why are those first words in the second sentence spongbobified
@@papasscooperiaworker3649 Ironic humor, prefacing your take with your background has become so memified. Natalie has done it herself when talking about her experiences "aS a tRaNs wOmAn"
8:34 one note on "working class." Just because someone makes a lot of money doesnt mean they arent working class. A lot of upper middle class people still work for a boss. Natalie became not "working class" as soon as she became her own boss, able to depend completely on her youtube and patreon revenue.
obviously that's not the framework some of her viewers who turned sour against her were working with, but i wanted to point this out
Well said. Many people have this misconception that “working class” means only low wages. As soon as someone starts seeing lots of money coming in suddenly they didn’t work for it?
@@extraterrestrial1614 yes. as an artist most "working class" people earn wayy more than me and have more security.
I can't remember if she even addressed this herself, I have this vague recollection of a discussion around mapping century-old terms designed when factory labour onto things like independent media creators who are their own boss, but still rely on youtube's monetisation and the way patreon changes its rules to not fuck them over (it might not have been her though)
I like the point you're making here, but if we get down to the nitty gritty of these definitions, even youtubers are still somewhat "working class" if we're basing it on a bourgeoisie vs. proletariat dichotomy. RUclipsrs only own some of the means of production. They may own the equipment (camera, lights, etc.) and may not be selling their labor to an employer in a traditional sense (i.e. for a wage based on time), but they don't operate as owners of capital either. Being a youtuber is a large scale iteration of working in the gig economy, kind of like being an uber driver. A larger corporation "hosts" your labor, takes a cut of it, and then trickles down part of the profits to you through things like adsense. Even patreon takes a cut of a creators profit, and the CEO's of those companies own the platforms creators work on. Contra doesn't "own" her channel, she hosts it, and gets paid a representative share of the value of her labor through the corporations who own her platforms.
People get mad at the money she has, apparently not realizing that Patreon subscriptions are basically donations. People are literally throwing money at her willingly, which is pretty much the total opposite of a rich capitalist exploiting people for profit
I really don’t like the idea that if a piece of content is in any way predictable it’s bad. Because there has not been a truly original idea in probably a millennium.
As someone with a background in creative writing and literary analysis, I think that the method of a story being told matters more than it being new or original. Which is why don’t get bored with the formula.
I mean you used the example of examining the performance/interpretation of Romeo, but you seem to feel that’s a bad thing. I think that when you can appreciate the performance and interpretation of the actor that adds a whole new level of enjoyment to the experience of watching the play. When you really understand all the elements that go in to making a work of art great, then you can really appreciate that art in ways you never could upon a first encounter. There’s a joy in deconstructing something.
The main reason I enjoy Contrapoints is because I am familiar with philosophy and critical theory through my literary studies, and I find her ideas and arguments thought provoking. They genuinely affect the way I think about and understand the world, and her ideas have influenced my own views. I was already left wing, I was an SJW back in the day, but I think that her videos are MORE enriching for the left wing than she’s given credit for, because she bothers to get into the minutia of our ideas in ways that others just don’t. It’s never “this is the right thing so you should think this way”, and I think it’s important for a leftist to be able to actually defend their ideas when someone on the right questions us.
I agree with you to an extent! I've seen things and tropes done before and still appreciated them, and I don't think ANY piece of media that exists should be wholly original, there's almost always inspiration from somewhere, from other artists to even the way you grew up. Contrapoints is probably one of my favourite channels, and she definitely influences my thinking as well, but I am aware that certain things that happened were not taken well for whatever reason so I was speculating why that was. Not to critique her, but rather to see how an audience reacts to her. Her content is always refreshing and polished to me and her way of thinking is a great way to engage challenging oneself with preconceived notions of how the world works, I was as I said an anti-SJW once and she was fairly key in changing that. I guess I came off more aggressive than I intended with the "figuring out the artist" thing, so I know I can develop what I mean further in the future. I do still think that certain things become a bit stale, drag race for example I watch plenty, but I definitely can guess who is poised to win from the historical framework of the shows previous narratives.
She's amazing. The loathing is definitely envy.
17:11 : that may be just you. Knowing the process of any RUclipsr has never made their videos less interesting for me. On the contrary, it gives me a better appreciation of how much effort they put into their work. As a result, I end-up liking more videos than before, because even if I didn't totally agree with the content, I must acknowledge the effort. It also makes me think that what the creator is saying must be very important to them or why would they go to that much trouble when there are still blogs and, of course, the sewer that is social networks ?
But hey, we're all different. I myself I'm allergic to ads. Whenever I can't avoid seeing an ad, it makes me angry at the brand and the product. The more I'm forced to see it, the more I hate it. But I must be an exception because if ads had that effect on everybody they wouldn't exist anymore.
"The audience has usually the last amount of input into the entire process of the work." Paraphrase: The audience is there to provide a platform and not dictate what a work should say. I love this so much and thank you for saying it. That's for me the biggest issue. In a way, it is a gift that the audience has been given the role of "critic." And "audience" and "critic" isn't segregated at all. It's "audience/critic/audience."
I'd say that this is the main challenge of any artist. When an artist goes public with their work or when their work is discovered for the first time by a viewer/reader, a weeding out of sorts takes place. Will the viewer/reader put their work aside or would they elevate to the level of fan/dom?
But in modern times a certain abuse of power has been planted in the audience. That is the power to put away one's work through flimsy/emotional reactions as opposed to in-depth, well-meditated, and constructive responses to evolve.
If the artist remains fearful, they become stagnant and therefore lose their audience. If the artist continues to grow and take risks, giving the audience what they want and what they thought they didn't want, there might be a huge payoff. Emphasis on "might."
The role of the artist has always been to provoke and make people think. I think Natalie has achieved this. And she'll continue to grow for sure.
Great video!
I love contrapoints! I'm only little sad because she deleted her pre transition videos. I really liked them.
i'm not saying to do this, because it could definitely be seen as a violation of her privacy, and honestly i felt kinda gross doing it. but if you use the wayback machine and are persistent about it, a couple of her old videos got saved by the archive and are watchable.
I personally feel like while they make similar content (and always have), Abigail is more something I can show my parents whereas Natalie's jokes would go over their heads most of the time. Different demographics perhaps.
I haven't watched the video yet but I adore the comment section, its how I wish every youtube comment section is or every discussion-- open minded, thoughtful and contemplative rather than accusatory, angry and dividing. It speaks a lot of the people who follow Natalie. I am proud to have found her and to have found all of you. I enjoy reading and thinking about everything written here.
Honestly I miss her Socratic dialogues. I understand that this is part of her "maturing" as a creator, but I loved the dark jokes and edgy takes. I had to rewatch them and really think about what it was I believed, and I think it got me to really examine a lot of issues I'd never considered. I think she's nervous to make that kind of content because she doesn't want to be misinterpreted, but her later videos are more like a presentation - they're interesting but they don't challenge me as much. This might also be because my own politics have now shifted. I think it's understandable that some viewers are going to move on and that's okay.
Same here tbh. Now it just feels like bring told what to think in a very drawn out way. There's less being funny and weird and more looking pretty. It's just not engaging anymore. Or maybe ive simply matured and grown out of all that, idk.
What I don't get is why would people be envious of content creators - or other people. Why do people take everything they see at face value and just assume who they're watching has a life with no hardships or struggles? Empathy is in short supply these days...
I remember seeing Buzzcocks live and someone commenting "They were far better when they didn't know how to play." I think leftwing and punk crowds have that similarity. Striving for that DIY authenticity and originality yet being disappointed when someone makes it big and ups the budget and gets better at their craft.
I'm not to shine away from that, I far more enjoy lo fi DIY production, but have learned to appreciate a well produced piece of work. Beat happening is great, but I still think Automatic for the People is one of the best albums out there.
In many ways, I think it shows some people are incapable of growth. There's a difference between getting exposure, then becoming lazy or obligated to release work when your heart isn't in it... and moving up, but using the new found resources to make a more polished, refined product. It's not fair either to want to (keep a talent to yourself), which I've been guilty of too 😂 when the mainstream nabs them, it ruins the magic
@@ennuiblue4295 THey're not speaking just to you anymore. :'(
It's a bit tough to draw a line. Some artists do "sellout" in a way but I feel that has more to do with doing something that really feels like it's not coming from them.
For example REM (my favourite band if it wasn't clear from the start) signed a biggest record deal with Warner Bros at the time and by some people were "the biggest sellouts" but they did it in a way to keep all the creative control.
Their indie label IRS was pressuring them to add synths and solos to sound more "new wave" and to keep up with trends, dudes recorded albums in such a short time just to avoid corporate meddling. Their first four albums (with WB) (Green, Out of Time, Automatic for the People and Monster) are probably one of the best and most polished albums out there.
On the other hand Peter Buck (guitarist) made sure that they were set for life, knowing back then that popularity of alternative music wasn't going to last forever and by that he set them all up to have comfortable lives not worrying about income anymore ever.
We live in this world where people want artist to "struggle" in way.
Sorry, this is a completely unwarranted story on my part but I just love them so much.
Her latest video which came out five days ago has 1.8 million views. Whatever she's doing, she's doing videos a wide variety of people like to watch. For me, it's free to watch her You Tube videos and Natalie's videos are longer, smarter and more entertaining than the crap coming out of Hollywood, which cost ten bucks to see in a theater. QED
I couldn’t agree more. Natalie is more than a mere Bread/RUclipsr, she’s in the oldest fashioned sense, an artist. She’s as much tormenting philosophical debate as she’s old school vaudevillian routine, an original. Originals like Natalie will always be torn apart, it’s the strength, skill, artistry of the individual versus the bullishness, weakness, ‘envy’ of crowds. It’s an old fable, the villages with flaming torches burning the witch they helped create. Gx
Oh my god you’re the sitting and smiling guy? You were mentioned in an episode by this RUclips Nexpo in some weird things around the internet thing. Regardless of that, I think this is quite a well written video, for me the video that got me into Natalie is “Men.” And then I saw “Beauty” afterwards, she really educated me on trans people and honestly I think her earnest shows through her content and that’s why I love her so much (and the birth of my ridiculous channel😅). Natalie effectively foreshadowed her downfall in Opulence.
I don't think I'm the sitting and smiling guy hahaha - I did a video about him though! Nonetheless thank you for watching - and for the compliments 😊
I think you're under representing the need for constant change and evolution in order to survive as a content creator. Audience interaction (or the illusion thereof) is an immense part of that. Certain content creators that discuss such deep, personal, controversial and political topics with a goal to inform people, have an integrity that gets them into trouble. Most content creators don't deal with topics that are as inherently personal and political nor do they have informing others as a goal. That is why integrity is not a big issue for them. But when you try to hold on to that integrity, hold yourself to certain standards, it is impossible to marry that with the need for constant change and evolution. Audience alienation is inevitable in these cases. Either we all accept his or Natalie Wynn has to change her game. As much as I support her and her channel, I wish she would quit twitter and hired both a manager for her career, a social media manager and a personal assistant. She needs to learn to let go, not be able to control every thing, make concessions and make it a job. I would love for her to reign in her patreon too as it is the most toxic patreon environment I've ever seen. What do you do as you're a CC when everything you do gets criticized by the (literally) anonymous wider audience and your core audience idolizes and fetishizes you to the point they develop a parasocial relationship?
I'm glad people are engaging with this in this kind of way. I know that me even posting this will cause a stir, I've already seen the dislikes spike drastically compared to usual, and it's something I find interesting. I agree with her needing some sort of professional assistance, she does far too much on her own to mentally handle what she does, and as you said, she has a nasty habit, like a few other creators like her, of not really putting down the phone when she needs to. Though I suppose when she was beginning to gain a following, like anyone, I imagine she didn't expect to get what she had, and I don't think she has much of a business mindset compared to others in the game. I'm in essence receiving a tiny portion of the emotional conflict she is right now, seeing those dislikes and and the immediate response to this video. It has sort of jolted me in how I want to make content in future, especially when it comes to treading on political soil.
Can you describe what is so toxic about her patroen a little more?
I don’t know if I’ve seen anyone mention this yet, (with peace and love !!) but using they/them pronouns for a trans man who has made it clear his pronouns are he/him, regardless of how you feel about him, is still misgendering.
thankyou. it is an easy slight but still one that is problematic since it implies(intentionally or not) that someone's pronouns are something that can be taken away like a phone as a punishment for poor behaviour
Dude just use "they" for everyone else.
"they" applies to everyone, regardless of gender identity.
They/them doesn't only apply to NB people. The very reason it is used for NB people is *because* it can be applied to anyone regardless of gender. So I can't agree that it's missgendering.
Call the police! hang them! biggest crime a Gen Z can commit!! The world will cease to turn and the daylight shall never come again!!
8:39 - it just tells us how many patrons she has. And it’s not necessarily a lot of money. Like, even if you assume every patron donates $5 a month (most don’t - $1 is the minimum required on the site and that’s most people’s experience) that’s not an income that she necessarily has to spend on luxury. She even mentions in her Beauty video about her surgeries being expensive, and that’s assuming she doesn’t also have a lot of other medical bills (hormones at the least, possibly other medications)
What I’m saying is - she might be making more than a retail slave, but she’s still almost certainly not out of the working class.
especially since it seems there is at least one person helping her film parts of her videos and they almost certainly are not working free. she also has to cover the costs of costuming, the electric she uses and the tools being used(like programs and camera equipment and the like as well as sets and props)
@@technopoptart probably rent for some of the places she's filming at. also no one knows how big her team actually is, if someone is helping to cut/edit the videos etc. (since her production got so much bigger with these long videos, i could be wrong tho & she still does everything herself. i just doubt that). and even if she doesn't have to pay others with the money she earns: she puts in a lot of effort & does a great job, studied and provides enormous value for many. i don't see why she shouldn't earn a lot of money?
“Is this what it’s like to grow old?”
“Yup” -me (pushing 40)
And that’s fine. Understanding media shouldn’t diminish enjoyment. If it does, either the piece is lacking and the audience would have felt something off anyway (though maybe without understanding why), or (as you said) if it feels stale they may be bored of that type/style of content.
People who study film theory don’t get tired of movies. They get bored of things which have been done to death. Art has to evolve or it stops being as engaging. Hopefully “breadtube” evolves.
Related point, I’ve always thought of breadtube as an audience than a genre. Creators will make the content they want and believe will resonate with audience. The audience will move as trends and culture change.
I may have merely restated points from the video without adding anything of value. If so, my apologies. I only watched it once and my ADHD brain was taken over by writing this comment. But at least a big-ass comment feeds the algorithm.
Really enjoyed the video. Excellent work.
*edit - fixed quote from video
Hey thank you so much! I'm glad the general point of the view made its way across, I'm aware this particular video might be a bit more cryptic than some of my other ones.
@@LiteWrites It definitely does. All I really wanted to comment on was the “grow old” and “seeing through the tricks” bit, but kinda lost control of my comment after that.
Related note (if you don’t mind mild, hopefully constructive, criticism) I rewatched the video to try and figure out what happened. The segue between points may have led to my confusion. Maybe a little more space for transition would have helped. The title may have contributed as well. The first part of the title matches with the beginning of the video and then the narrative shifts into other explanations. Which may be on me for missing the Anime style title (which I just realized)
It could also be a media comprehension issue in my part. I’m not able to track individual points in a video essay and just go with the flow (again ADHD). For me, analysis requires a different headspace then how I usually watch video essays (as relaxing edutainment with a focus on the ‘tainment). But, even if that is the case, I may also be your target audience as most of the media I consume these days is video essays.
Again, I really enjoyed the video and any issue are minor compared to the work as a whole. Very excited watch through your back catalog. Pretentious Epic and yourself are two of the best new essayists I’ve come across yet. Looking forward to whatever you decide to make next.
That Kat Blaque piece was powerful, especially right around that point in the vid.
in all honesty if anyone is getting sick of contrapoints i think it’s natalie herself. not if the channel or her work or herself more the persona she’s created. it’s gonna back to feeling human. like the audience us a part of the conversation. the cancelling and the trauma that came with it really changed her and her content and she seems to have let go of expectations knowing it’s impossible to please everyone so now the only person she seeks to please is herself by trying to make good content which she keeps succeeding at.
I always thought her videos were only getting better and better?
They are, if you're not biased and dishonest.
...but can we talk about your clairvoyance with *Envy*? 😂
I am so relieved I like the magic, academic aesthetic and the scenery of the format so much still.
Why do people take offense when others grow and evolve? Just because you chose to stay the same doesn't mean that others have to.
I enjoy all of Natalie's work, mostly because I'm an extremely introspective person and her videos often shine a spotlight on thoughts I've had myself. She's witty, she does her research, and her videos always leave me with a lot to think about. I'm not going to get tired of her any time soon.
While I’m here, my favorite Nat quote ever “All right you little shits, you want some book learnin’ Niche!”
Maybe it’s because I started watching her channel after the transition to more “aesthetic” videos, but I don’t feel alienated at all by her. I find her videos make me really think about how I view the topics she talks about, and her character breaks where Natalie herself appears are fun and also show a very relatable side of her.
I’m the polar opposite. I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement on her Opulence video, and others like it, be un rewatchable. In my opinion, that’s the best video she’s ever made. I’ve reacted it at least 20 times. I perfectly encapsulates gen z and young millennials’ obsessions with looking wealthy despite being broke, why the “American Dream” is capitalists bullshit, as well as deconstructing the incredibly racist and sexist myth of the “welfare queen.” Quite frankly, I get bored watching LeftTubers who do nothing but sit in front of a camera with plain clothes on and monologue for 30min - 2 hrs in front of a plain background. That’s why I find Contra’s old videos, and her JK Rowling video, kinda unwatchable. Her more theatric and character driven approach to her videos added some much needed life, pizzazz, and eye catching intrigue to the left leaning commentary community without using clips and potentially getting copyrighted.
I’ve always felt alienated by the LeftTube because it seemed to filled with nothing but monotone stuffy pantsuits wearing academics while quote famous dead guys I’ve never heard of. It felt like I was watching a college video lecture. Conta, and other trans RUclipsrs like Philosophy Tube and Jessie Gender, actually make hearing that boring but important stuff fun. At the end of the day, if you’re not entertaining, no one will care what you have to say.
Hard agree. Opulence is an absolute art piece and it shocks me that it isn't her most watched video.
I find myself disagreeing a lot with people who are bored with these "overproduced" videos by ContraPoints, philosophy tube, and Lindsay Ellis. But the thing is like....
There are other left tubers and trans content creators. Kat Blaque is still doing her thing in her apartment with the same posters she's had for years and I still LOVE her content.
I think other people's problems is that they need to diversify their interests and see other creators. bored of ContraPoints? Seek out another creator. But I don't think Natalie should have to change her aesthetic unless she really feels a compunction to.
I found myself debating with a friend of mine against purity culture in the left these days and I feel this video really relates to that. More and more I become convinced that if you look closely enough at anyone you will find reason to vilify them.
I shared with Natalie not having kept up with Buck Angel (I looked into him when he was mentioned in a Tales of the City book in 2007, liked how a Silent Gen transwoman character explained to the cis male gay Boomer protagonist "You don't have to keep up dear, you just have to keep open.). I pulled up a couple of videos online, was happy that he existed for people who are into trans men with vulvas, and literally didn't think about him for over a decade. But before learning of the awful things he had said and done in between, I was surprised that Natalie, who lived in Baltimore for quite some time, had chosen someone, however famous in trans circles, who didn't particularly sound like John Waters (whose voice I've heard a lot more than Buck Angel's in my life.).
The jump to cancel reminds me of when I saw Fun Home, with an author interview after, in 2017. Alison Bechdel was telling a story to the mostly-queer audience that happened to include the line "So I had to call an Uber!" and people starting booing her over not.havibg seen a whistleblowing essay that had literally come out just the day before, when she was on a plane.
But it's aesthetic insult to injury that Natalie took so much flak over someone who didn't even do a good job of sounding like the celeb he was voicing.
Coming from the perspective of a non-binary and transmasc person
Was it hurtful when Natalie included Buck Angel in her video? Yes. I was surprised by the cameo and confused by the decision, but I appreciated the video for what it was, a masterpiece *full* of cameos and costumes and an amazing concept that made me think. Did some of her older tweets about non-binary people make me cringe? Yep. But I don’t expect everyone to understand me right away, especially people who don’t come from a background that would have allowed them to meet people like me until recently. Natalie apologizes when she has hurt people, I think that’s enough for me. Her content is so important, I want to see her videos continue for as long as she wants to make them.
Prophetic video given Contrapoints latest release...
Did you just know what topic she was gonna make a video about? Are you a mind reader?
I like her because I enjoy philosophy and philosophizing. I also really like her cinematography. I like her recent stuff more than her earlier stuff because if this. She says in envy “I guess this is a political channel now” but I still think its still just philosophy but the two are intertwined.
I never stopped liking her videos, in fact I still enjoy them. I never saw here as unreachable celebrity tbh
Philosophy Tube is a channel I really enjoy as well.
I also don’t think having style takes away from seeing what the video is trying to say
I enjoy the style and having noticed a decline or change in quality
I think it’s fine if some don’t like her as much, as long as we are all on the side about important issues
In Australia we call this the "tall poppy syndrome." Natalie has never set her experience up as a roadmap for trans people and often acknowledges her privilege and the absurdity of her elaborate film sets. I don't know if many of us would be super grounded with sudden access to such wealth.
I remember the high of the "contrapoints hunt" where you literally can ben banned from lots of trans groups simply by saying you like her videos.... today the entire discourse shift...THANK GOD
“I’m afraid of blowing up” he says in the video that blows up
It's similar to a humble brag. You induce something in an underhanded manner then pretend you got lucky, yet that was your aim all along. Color me surprised that most of the comments don't get it.
I'll never understand the reaction to The Aesthetic. It's one of my favorite video and it didn't feel to me like Tabby was presented in a bad light at all.
Also I can't help but feel that a lot of ppl are letting the content they consume consume them. The content can be great but you need a life and an identity outside of it before you find yourself publicaly projecting unfounded stuff onto a creator over a minor disagreement
The Romeo-actor analogy was so good, that’s exactly how it feels.
I love Natalie for the same reason for which others see her as a class traitor: What she represents is my dream. I want to be unapologetically myself, create grand things, be rich enough to both express opulence and help those who are going through what is my current life experience.
Opulence is one of my favorite Contra videos.
This might be nit picky but you state she "chose" to pass as a cis gender woman. Yea, it''s either that or relieving a lot of gender dysphoria.....some choice.
Those who disavow conventional gender markers usually don't have dysphoria or don't have it to a sufficient level or type that drives them to seek relief through whatever means necessary like hormones and surgery.
That's what I mean, some see her transitioning in her way as conforming to patriarchy or fetishising femininity (stated in her gender critical vid), which is ridiculous. Some people may be transgender without dysphoria, she has dysphoria, and I'm supporting her in her transition to relieve it in spite of those who say she's doing it for any other bad faith reasoning.
(Though obviously my wording couldve been better lol)
I'm not tired of LeftTube at all. I am still very much engaged
I think your feeling of being "above it all" is essentially squidwardian. Yes, I am using that word unironically.
I'm finding it hard to understand the purpose of this video, specifically why it's about contrapoints specifically. Like, idk, the ending felt like it was about your personal feelings on the direction of leftist content creators and weird personal niggles about "knowing their tricks" but when the rest of the video is so focused on her career it made me kinda uncomfortable, like somehow you were implying Natalie was somehow at fault for expanding the scope and quality of her videos? I know that's probably not what it was for but idk... I guess I'd want to ask if something happened that made the video need to be about contrapoints in specific instead of creators in general? I hope this doesn't come across too aggressive -_-
It's a valid question, don't worry! I don't think I was implying that it was Natalie's fault for expanding her scope, though, rather certain pockets of her audience became alienated from her from her evolution as a creator. Note that I don't say Natalie alienated the audience, rather, the audience became alienated, because it's more of something that happened outside of her control.
I zoned in on Contrapoints because it's the clearest example of audience alienation to follow alongside being the first major one; she has documented her experiences fairly openly with her time on the platform too. I guess something that could've been expanded on was how other leftist creators are now kind of seeing the same backlash as her, such as Lindsay Ellis in her Mask Off video and Sarah Z releasing her long tweet rant about how the audience holds her up to a certain expectation that is really not easy to maintain.
As for the 'weird personal niggles', it's a bit more for me than that, I've been fairly open about how creators and artists are treated in my opinion and seeing them struggle mentally as a result of how they see their audience interact with them is something I want to address. I hope this clears a few things up!
I see what you're saying. There is something odd about the writing, in the sense that, if this were a written essay it feels like the final conclusion answers a slightly different question than the one posed in the introduction. The theme and content all work but the framework feels slightly off.
It felt like the creator was projecting his feelings about Natalie’s change onto her entire audience. Maybe she’s less relatable to some viewers, but to other viewers she now more relatable.
The fact that she is a very successful transgender creator who, as you said, brought new perspectives to people on their way to right-wing radicalization made her to be this “savior” type for a lot of people. A lot of what happens to famous breatubers seems to come from a place of their audiences imprinting their expectations and feeding into impossible parasocial relationships.
^^^^^
Natalie has done immense, measurable good in the world. Folks being startled out of their parasocial ideation of her as an equal because she has been financially rewarded for that positive impact does not, in any universe, undo it.
I honestly liked her move from feeling she had to tiptoe around every single issue by giving every possible take an actual voice and focus more on what she thought were the interesting points in a topic. But it seems inevitable that giving her actual take was going to alienate the fault-finding purists. The leftist Twitter mob is a vulture waiting for content creators to utter or display even the slightest ideological heresy so they can bleed them in their time-honored and bizarre public display of purity ritual. I suppose when you can’t get (and indeed don’t actually want) any real political traction it’s a great way to wallpaper over your own impotence. And it makes Natalie’s “Envy” video all the more relevant and rewatchable.
I love this editing so much. You obviously take her and others seriously (even if it is lolcow cringe). You blur certain things and respectfully did not show Natalie pre-transition. You're not here to mock anyone, or even provide fuel for anyone to be mocked.
Yeah her "transtrenders" episode which is the one you were talking about with tabby being framed to lose? I 1000000% disagree. There were great points, and she didn't lose to the Blair stand in, and she didn't lose to Justine, tabby and Justine went back and forth and it became clear how Justine was being affected by the same underlying issues in some cases as Blair was, but also at the same time, that tabby has more to learn as well, even if she wasn't wrong. That video single handedly stopped me from going down the transmed rabbit hole.
So yeah, glad you mentioned that one.
That last segment about the breadtube audience is so true. There's a religious zeal to both Contra's detractors AND her stans. I was so happy when breadtube started blowing up in 2017 because the Anti-SJWs had really turned RUclips into a shithole. Now, big creators are disappearing up their own asses and wokescolds are running the discourse. I still see smaller creators doing videos on ideas/topics and chud dunking though, so that spirit is still there.
Highly specific comment that doesn't actually touch on the content, but I really like that you let your videos end when you've finished what you have to say. I find it really irritating when people have the last thirty seconds of their videos be promoting more of their own content, it leaves me feeling pressured to just move on to the next piece of consumption rather than sitting with the things they had to say. The fact that you let your concluding statements speak for themselves rather than shepherding the audience over to the next shiny thing is refreshing and doesn't make me feel so drained. Excellent video as usual.
I'm, I think, being a European cis-het girl from a well-to-do background, not your typical Contrapoints viewer, but I've followed and supported her from almost the beginning, even tho' I was probably at the left of her even then. I like her ability to see nuance, which is not something you commonly see in Americans on the internet, her humour and often her delivery, both the substance and the cinematography of it, but I think there's an element you missed in her evolution that has alienated some people, and it has nothing to with envy, but core content.
Even tho' I'm personally more a fan of the Socratic method styled videos (It's just personal taste, I enjoy them more), I really liked Opulence. I'm a Marxist, but compared to most entrepreneurships, Patreon is relatively ethical and our critique of political economy should never be aimed at individuals, but at systems. I liked the production value in Opulence, the content was brilliant and on point, but mostly it was the last of Natalie's videos to remotely touch on class politics.
And that' my main critique of her channel: for whatever reason she gave-up tackling the central topic of leftism and her last video was a punch in the face at anyone left of an American liberal.
I don't envy her, I admire her content, especially being in film school myself, and the work she puts into it, but I question why one of the most prominent figures of internet leftism went from making a 2 part video critiquing capitalism to tackling only trans issues and internet culture, while scolding as Tabbiesque or envious the people who still do have issues with capitalism as it is.
Thank you for voicing this! I agree!
Wait this was released BEFORE her video about Envy?? Wow
Natalie is a Hierophant and is reclaiming the traditional trans role that was taken from us 2 millennia ago. Envy was spot on. Maybe it is because I am a PhD drop out too, but I was also a Tabby organizer that has experienced the same emotionality directed in counterproductive directions from community insiders. The goddess is ok with ecstatic chaos, but not implosion and betrayal among her children.
I understood none of that, I just think Natalie is witty, pretty and creative, and gives me some insight on things I don't have the slightest contact with, but exist in the world.
I think all of this is partly because she is so good, we expect her to be perfect.
This kind of has a vibe that says that content creators are responsible for the abuse that the people who hate them do to them. I doubt that is the intention but it doesn't take a hard line against the abuse. Leftist content creators getting meta about their influence, success, and criticism shouldn't result in asking if it is getting tiresome, it should be asking how come it happens, why it is necessary. I see that's what you are trying to say, but I think you could have gone a bit deeper on the "why".
One of the reasons I don't like current Abigail quite as much as previous Abigail is that she seems to have switched style for substance. Some of her old videos have some incredibly interesting set ups and writing, regardless of aesthetic. But these days she puts a lot of effort into aesthetics (which isn't bad by itself), but it feels like that's replacing the writing.
None of this is Natalie's fault. She still makes great content that keeps deradicalizing young men. This video just feels like attacking her because her videos are different than the ones before.
AND, is still doing so. Exhibit A, me
Why does this video felt like an attack to you? It seems like a fan tbh
Contrapoints changed my life. I love her.
I miss her old videos though.
People love to hate on Nat bc they know she’s right and won’t hate back on them due to her genuine empathy. Does anyone know if Blair is still down with maga? As far as I know she hasn’t commented since before Jan 6.
Wait, so were people upset that she knows how set design works?
at 8:36 the class mobility issue - How dare an impoverished intellectual become another petit bourgeois bruncher. a salient point and what I saw as the break for alot of folks.
I subscribed to philosophyTube because of ConTraPoints. I like the look of those types of videos and the different thinking and view points they have.
If you get alienated from a cool, smart, interesting person because they're celebrated for those qualities, ya'll gotta look that shit in the face and admit that what's really going on with you had nothing to do with her.
Yay!! I'm glad to see your videos getting more attention. Great timing on this one!
I love Contrapoints, and frankly the Left needs to be empathetic all around. There's a difference between holding someone accountable for their actions in a proportional way and being cruel and traumatizing someone because you feel you're morally justified in doing so.
I find that the whole "breaking of the magic" referred to in the video is common when people don't now how to appreciate the artistry behind the work and/or are mentally in a place where they are quick to find flaws rather than strengths. That is not a dig it's something I've dealt with in myself. I'm an artist and one of my strengths is critiquing work, therefore I'm often in the mindset of "find the flaw" but to provide a good critique you need to be able to see the good in the piece too, or you're just being cruel. Once you actively train yourself not to just pick out flaws but to see the good and truly appreciate the work and artistry that went into the piece you tend to enjoy seeing the curtains pulled back a bit. It's more like a How it's Made episode than remembering you're watching an actor rather than actual Romeo. I like watching videos and seeing little continuity errors, even if they annoy me because they show the humanness of the maker, and show by contrast how well made other aspects are. For that matter differences are not the same as flaws.
It's very much how you view the world and a bit more optimistic than people seem to want to be. But I find viewing something only for it's flaws and calling it a critique to be disingenuous at best.
There is phenomena where the closer to "perfection" something is the more it's "flaws" stand due to the contrast. It doesn't necessarily mean the flaws are particularly bad, just more noticeable. I find that Natalie take far more abuse than is justifiable. Instead of leveling this harsh "criticism" at everyone including the people taking away actual human rights people pounce on a visible person to direct all their anger at. People on the Left have experiences a lot of trauma myself included, we tend to be sensitive when something feels like it's putting us back in that place.
We can not take our trauma out on others and call it a moral standing. It's wrong and needs to stop. Being hurt does not give you the right to hurt others Period
Interesting video! I think it was a good exploration of the directions Natalie has gone through with her content, it's rare to see nuanced takes on her beyond pure praise or vitriol. I think the video could have been more organized but overall it was thought-provoking! I originally subbed because of your bojack videos but this was a welcome surprise.
That was so shady to Violet Chachki, we Violet look a likes are still studious 😅
The left don't forgive, I don't know why you'd give such people power. The speed with which they turned on Natalie (one of the best philosophy youtubers on the platform - producing art as well as arguments) shows how dangerous they are (if Natalie is insufficiently pure then could you survive the guillotine?).
I don't think i'll ever grow tired of contrapoints video. It's always like a treat for me
Interesting video and insight.
I'm a non binary trans man. I love Natalie's videos and have watched her for years. I don't resent her and I think her style is something to aspire to personally. I never fully understood the sudden waves of hate that would swarm her on Twitter again and again. At the time of the Buck Angel incident I knew he was a truscum but I didn't understand the hate and I didn't see the harm in him briefly reading something in Contra's video. But this year I watched a video about Buck Angel I highly recommend by Alexander Jasper Jay detailing his history and the kind of person he is. He now claims trans women are just men with autogyeniphilia. He's terrible and that should be known. The thing is too the bigger your audience on any platform the more restricted the individuals content and freedom to speak candidly for fear of being canceled usually over a misunderstanding. The bigger the audience the more people you have to. You can like a creator without agreeing with everything they say or do. People are flawed and morally gray at times, just as nature fundamentally is. I'm not a fan of this black and white thinking and this misdirected purgatory mob mentality of what I'm guessing are mostly very young people who don't look into anything at length or consider nuance before grabbing the metaphorical pitchfork, or bat.
I find it tiring the idea that if someone is financially comfortable or rich they're suddenly one of the villains. While I agree billionaires have no reason to exist, the goal isn't for everyone to be equally poor, it's for no one to be poor. Isn't it good to see people who are on your side succeed? To see someone like you live well while also having the opportunity to donate and financially support causes you believe in but often can't personally contribute to?
I think Natalie having the opportunity to make beautiful grand videos with her income is wonderful and I hope to continue seeing her thrive.
I’m not gonna lie, I felt a bit alienated by Natalie. I don’t dislike her or wish her any ill will but I just don’t relate to her videos anymore. I miss the Tabby days but I get it. RUclipsrs grow & get big & everything starts to get really glamorous & that’s just the way it is. She’s free to do what she wants with her channel & I’m free to move onto another one. I’m sure she’ll remain successful regardless of my lil ol’ view.
Tbh I find it funny how the debate between tiffany and tabby kinda resembles the debate between blair and contra. Except contra had like a pink wig or something so a lot of people on blair's side just assumed blair won because contra looked "silly". The aesthetic was not in her favor in that debate and it painted how she was percieved by others. But then again, those who are transphobic or have a bad view of people with different out there aesthetic are going to hate you due to their own personal biases that has nothing to do with you as an individual person. So it doesn't really matter of you choose to conform or not in the grand scheme of things unless you want to persuade more people.
"contrapoints realness"
life suddenly made so much more sense