The way we would establish TDC in shops I'v been in is to Turn engine until the rod stops moving UP and mark the crank damper position. Turn engine until the rod just starts to move DOWN and mark crank damper position. Exactly between the two marks is TDC. Of course we used a dial indicator but in the field you can get close by eyeballing it. :)
I am thinking of doing this swap.You cannot be thanked enough for documenting this.Getting to see it really puts into perspective for me.I wonder if a 2.5 head would bolt to the 2.3?
I don't see why not as it appears that the block is identical to the 2.3. However, don't take my word for it! I'd advise you to visit the Mazda3Forums.com and search for the two threads on the 2.5 swap. Others may have done it already. Secondly, you may read some forum posts at Massive Performance' site. They are 2.3/2.5 gurus. (However, they could not answer my question on 2.5 timing.) It was there that I read that the 2.5 head flows significantly better than the 2.3.
Maybe the problem is that the rubber in between the damper roll out of alignment its happends it old the rubber is cracked so it moved you need a new one I know about this engine I have a 07 mazda 6 and I rebuilt the engine back in December and it working strong. I could tell your off course the hole in the damper is at the 5 o'clock so your damper is off alignment
Chain drive? Chain can't slip on crank, cam & crank have to still be in-time... then just the pulley slipped or the tone-wheel on the pulley (rubber bonded pulley can slip)? Sorry if I'm wrong... don't have any mazda experience.
Chain yes. No key on crank for anything. So, gear that drives the chain/cams spins freely on crankshaft until pulley is tightened onto crankshaft holding everything together. Pulley can be timed, cams can be timed, but still possible for the crank to be off.
Crank moving = pulley moving, yes. But pulley can be timed correctly although crank may be off from TDC. External indications show timing is good. Cam/Crank correlation shows all is good. Engine runs like crap though. No engine damage in my case but it's considered and interference engine I do believe so it can happen. Hope I'm explaining it right!
Crankshaft & cams are aligned relative to each other by a cam chain with help of special plates and bolt. This is straightforward to understand. These must also be timed correctly *relative to the crank pulley* which relies on not a traditional key and slot but a friction washer. Which, as you say, is "fiddly" and risk-laden. As far as I can tell you have done everything correctly (including determining that the timing has slipped). Wouldn't simply putting in the timing bolt, turning the crank until it rests against that, then using an impact wrench to tighten the crank pulley bolt do the trick? That way you can be sure the crank isn't turning (and shouldn't be dangerous to the bolt). If it were me, I do it that way, at first just "snugging" the bolt with the impact then remove the timing bolt and then really "hammer" the crank bolt with the impact. If my crank pulley oil seal leaks, I have this issue to deal with? Sheesh! Your videos are very excellent and make understanding all this--even if not doing a swap--very clear. Thank you.
i just swap 2 diferent motor in my madza 3 and same isu it whont start only got fire on 2 coils and my car soud like its flode work on this for 3 days none stop anyone can help me or aving any idea
Once you have verified that the timing is set properly here are some ideas. Test and make sure that the coils are getting power/ground and the signal to fire from the PCM. So, first check for the signals at the coils and if they are not there check for the signals at the PCM. If you have verified that there is signal present at the coils then you need to verify that the wiring and connector that goes to the PCM are okay. If you are using the same coils on all engines then you need to verify that the coils are all good. If you have tried two different motors and have the same problem, the problem exists in something outside the motors. So the wiring, fuses, connections, coils, or the PCM. If you are using the same sensors on all engines then you need to verify that your sensors, especially crank sensor, are working properly. Good luck!
You are telling me that you verified that the signal/command to fire the coils is present at the coils when you crank the engine. However, even though the signal/command is present, only two of the four coils fire and generate spark? If the engine sounds like it's flooded and won't start after repeated cranking, check to make sure your spark plugs aren't fouled. That happened to me!
What bothered me the most was not so much that the timing was off but that scan data, that I had been staring at for weeks, showed that the timing was correct! Damn it, that really sucked! Fortunately, it was easy to fix. Did you get yours figured out?
yes i did... also know that some camshafts and crankshafts for these engines are not forged. and there is only 15 to 20 thousands hardened on the camshafts
Andrew Frey Well, that explains the rod knock issues and makes me glad that I kept the 2.5 cam instead of swapping in the old 2.3 cam like most guys do! How did you find that info out about cam/crank?
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The way we would establish TDC in shops I'v been in is to Turn engine until the rod stops moving UP and mark the crank damper position. Turn engine until the rod just starts to move DOWN and mark crank damper position. Exactly between the two marks is TDC. Of course we used a dial indicator but in the field you can get close by eyeballing it. :)
Good tip!
Your working under challenging conditions. My hats off to you for staying the course on this project.
Haha, thanks Wyatt. The older I get the more I hate the cold and yet here I am in just about the middle of winter working on a car in the driveway.
I am thinking of doing this swap.You cannot be thanked enough for documenting this.Getting to see it really puts into perspective for me.I wonder if a 2.5 head would bolt to the 2.3?
I don't see why not as it appears that the block is identical to the 2.3. However, don't take my word for it! I'd advise you to visit the Mazda3Forums.com and search for the two threads on the 2.5 swap. Others may have done it already. Secondly, you may read some forum posts at Massive Performance' site. They are 2.3/2.5 gurus. (However, they could not answer my question on 2.5 timing.) It was there that I read that the 2.5 head flows significantly better than the 2.3.
thank you.Keep up the good work and not avoiding a challenge
Maybe the problem is that the rubber in between the damper roll out of alignment its happends it old the rubber is cracked so it moved you need a new one I know about this engine I have a 07 mazda 6 and I rebuilt the engine back in December and it working strong. I could tell your off course the hole in the damper is at the 5 o'clock so your damper is off alignment
What is the 2.5 out of?
South Main Auto Repair Ford Fusion
2011 Ford Fusion
Chain drive? Chain can't slip on crank, cam & crank have to still be in-time... then just the pulley slipped or the tone-wheel on the pulley (rubber bonded pulley can slip)? Sorry if I'm wrong... don't have any mazda experience.
Chain yes. No key on crank for anything. So, gear that drives the chain/cams spins freely on crankshaft until pulley is tightened onto crankshaft holding everything together. Pulley can be timed, cams can be timed, but still possible for the crank to be off.
Baxrok2 That's crazy then! What's the torque spec on that bolt?
75ft/lbs initial torque then an additional 90 degrees. Does not seem like much!
***** No, it doesn't.
Sorry, had a blond moment... crank moving / pulley moving = same thing. =)
There shouldn't be any engine damage then if it's chain drive. yes?
Crank moving = pulley moving, yes. But pulley can be timed correctly although crank may be off from TDC. External indications show timing is good. Cam/Crank correlation shows all is good. Engine runs like crap though. No engine damage in my case but it's considered and interference engine I do believe so it can happen. Hope I'm explaining it right!
Crankshaft & cams are aligned relative to each other by a cam chain with help of special plates and bolt. This is straightforward to understand.
These must also be timed correctly *relative to the crank pulley* which relies on not a traditional key and slot but a friction washer. Which, as you say, is "fiddly" and risk-laden.
As far as I can tell you have done everything correctly (including determining that the timing has slipped).
Wouldn't simply putting in the timing bolt, turning the crank until it rests against that, then using an impact wrench to tighten the crank pulley bolt do the trick? That way you can be sure the crank isn't turning (and shouldn't be dangerous to the bolt). If it were me, I do it that way, at first just "snugging" the bolt with the impact then remove the timing bolt and then really "hammer" the crank bolt with the impact.
If my crank pulley oil seal leaks, I have this issue to deal with? Sheesh!
Your videos are very excellent and make understanding all this--even if not doing a swap--very clear. Thank you.
davecc0000 Thank you. Yes, in my newest videos I show all of the details of the timing.
Thank you so much for your videos and taking the time to do them you have done me a great service in helping me build a long time dream of mine
-jason
Glad it helped Jason. That was my goal all along, to help people out.
i just swap 2 diferent motor in my madza 3 and same isu it whont start only got fire on 2 coils and my car soud like its flode work on this for 3 days none stop anyone can help me or aving any idea
Once you have verified that the timing is set properly here are some ideas.
Test and make sure that the coils are getting power/ground and the signal to fire from the PCM. So, first check for the signals at the coils and if they are not there check for the signals at the PCM.
If you have verified that there is signal present at the coils then you need to verify that the wiring and connector that goes to the PCM are okay. If you are using the same coils on all engines then you need to verify that the coils are all good.
If you have tried two different motors and have the same problem, the problem exists in something outside the motors. So the wiring, fuses, connections, coils, or the PCM. If you are using the same sensors on all engines then you need to verify that your sensors, especially crank sensor, are working properly. Good luck!
already check al those option all i can see its thats the cumputer need a resets i change the crank sensor allready nothing working
You are telling me that you verified that the signal/command to fire the coils is present at the coils when you crank the engine. However, even though the signal/command is present, only two of the four coils fire and generate spark?
If the engine sounds like it's flooded and won't start after repeated cranking, check to make sure your spark plugs aren't fouled. That happened to me!
Baxrok2 thx for the help ill check thats later on today car is backfiring thats why i tought its flood because of the gas smell and stuff
If it's backfiring, verify timing too!
A keyway in Crank and Cams solve this problem
Interesting
i know your struggles!!!
What bothered me the most was not so much that the timing was off but that scan data, that I had been staring at for weeks, showed that the timing was correct! Damn it, that really sucked! Fortunately, it was easy to fix. Did you get yours figured out?
yes i did... also know that some camshafts and crankshafts for these engines are not forged. and there is only 15 to 20 thousands hardened on the camshafts
Andrew Frey Well, that explains the rod knock issues and makes me glad that I kept the 2.5 cam instead of swapping in the old 2.3 cam like most guys do! How did you find that info out about cam/crank?