Taking 2 Pair 2 The Felt | Ask SplitSuit
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2024
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Hero is in the money in the Sunday Million and this interesting hand comes up. Facing a steal from the SB, Hero defends with K7 in the BB - although a 3bet is discussed. When Hero checks the flop behind with second pair, things get a bit odd. SplitSuit explains why betting the flop is crucial and also explains why the bet size on the river may have created such a tough situation.
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I don't think always betting the flop is ideal I mean he hit the dream card or the turn but I do agree that if you bet like 20-25k and face the check raise all in on river its either better 2 pairs a flopped straight played weird or a set of some sort so at least betting around that amount as you said can fold to the all in.
No we are not getting more money from checking back but there are chances that he can go check raise the flop because he check raised the river. I mean you have to value bet 2 pair but getting check raised all in you have to fold was pretty much checking by putting in 10k. I think 20-25k as Splitsuit said is a good value bet and if we get CR all in its a fold not the best call on river with a 2 pair that does loses to a lot.
+fmm plm yeah that logic makes no sense to me either. Let him check raise the flop, we fold, we got bluffed, that's poker move on.
Also the fact that he check raised the river has no bearing on him being able to c/r the flop because on the river his hand is really strong.
That aside, very few players are capable of c/r on that flop, out of position with something that we beat.
+Hotobu Well some players can either do this CR the flop with hands like KQ AK AQ if they are decent players maybe even do it either worse hands like Q10 K10 KJ & maybe A10, so if we bet and they do this its tough to know what they have really. They could even have a weaker A perhaps and looking to get to showdown perhaps. I am not saying it has any bearing at all I mean the way the hand played is super weird like I was not expecting him to CR the river at all hero go lucky to hit a 2 pair that got there. I think a lot of the hands I mentioned above probably 3 bet pre flop and a hand like K7o could be a hand thats a good 3 bet as well. I mean if we 3 bet pre flop and cBet this situation might not happen at all. I think hero played it fine until the weak river bet and calling the CR all in.
+MrLucidLJ I think betting the flop is the standard line here. If you get check raised on the flop its an easy fold 95% of the time. It screams an ace, two pair, straight, monster draw, etc. 8s are going away on this flop almost always unless they're making an awful float. This is a tournament, and extracting max value for the possibility of an all in suckout isn't as good as winning small pots. IMO. If I can steal a pot on the flop 60% of the time I'm stabbing everytime.. unless I flopped the nuts but that's different.
Trevor Gibson
I guess my way might be a bit more passive then your line. Your happy to take the pot down which is fine and small. I'm just wondering lets say you stab he calls and obviously he hits the turn what range are you putting him on? Are you barreling the turn if he calls the flop bet. I see lots of people float flops like this.
My two critical questions were;
1. Why does villain only min bet from the SB?
Is it a weak steal attempt? Or, is it a hand that wants action?
and,
2. Why does villain not C-Bet the flop?
Is it a monster that is slow playing? Or is it a weak hand that can't stand a raise, or even a bet?
Both of those questions went unanswered.
I don't think Hero would have needed to find answers to both of the questions, either by 3 betting pre flop, or by betting the flop, but, I feel Hero should have done at least one of those actions and then this situation would have never come up.
Getting 88 to fold is unimportant; we can't base our whole game on defending against 2 outers.
Wow, absolutely stunned to see 88, given that he checked the river; brave guy
I somewhat disagree with the flop decision about betting. K7 is an awkward hand where we don't see very many worse Kx in our opponents range. When we bet the flop the larger portion of our opponents calling range beats us. We protect our hand vs pairs making sets, Qx making 2P and Jx/Tx from making a straight but since all these hand improvements only happen 4%-16% of the time we don't need to protect our equity in this spot since equities don't change that much on the turn. I think checking the flop back to induce a bluff on a later street is the best way to play the hand since we usually have to add 2 bets into the pot from his value range weather we check the flop or not and the only line that can be taken to induce bets from bluffs is to check the flop.
** We have to take 2 bets from his value range since line 1 is likely:
Bet flop, check back turn, call river
And line 2 is:
Check back flop, call turn, call river
If he didnt cbet bluff on an Ahigh board after opening from the SB what makes u think he will be likely to bluff on later streets? Only a bad player would take such nonsensical line. So checking back flop to induce bluffs is not really a valid reason unless u know for a fact that u're up against a weak spewy player. Other than that, i like ur other reasons for not betting here but i still like betting better b/c like James said we wanna be stabbing here with our air some % of the time and this is a good time to balance that up with this hand.
I'm glad to see someone among the commenters has half a clue. This is a textbook example of a way ahead / way behind scenario, and it's a mandatory check back on the flop, precisely because it's the only way to get any value from the vast amounts of air that would fold to a bet, but might stab the turn. We can't bet for value (let alone call a check-raise and a barrel), and we don't need to protect our hand from 2 outers, so it's a very clear check back, planning to call on later streets, or bet the turn ourselves.
I disagree. I haven't watched the rest of the hand yet so I don't know what happens, but checking back the flop against an aggro player should completely be the default, primarily to incite bluffs. I'm surprised you suggested otherwise...
Love the vids SplitSuit. I think the other replayer is cleaner than the boom one. Cheers
+Josh Donovan thanks Josh! I 100% agree...but so many people send me Boom Player hands lol
I really don't agree with the comments on betting the flop. Even in a BvB spot, this is too wet of a board for K7 to profitably bet, as villain will effectively remove a ton of hands from their range if they check-call but we probably will always fold to a check-raise with a hand as weak as K7 on AKQdd, making the bet a total waste of EV when we could have given ourselves not only for a chance for the board to improve our hand, but a reason to call down or get away from the hand as well. The turn favours our hand, both in terms of equity and playability, much more than the flop because of the board coordination. I think we only bet against low CR% to balance, or against weak-tights who show up with underpairs and QJ a lot here, and even then, do we double barrel bricks, and if so, why? I just think predominantly checking back King-rag on this flop makes a lot of sense here.
It may be nittish, but I would have let Villain have the blinds. Hero was sitting on just over 34BB (and an M of just over 14) which is still a comfortable enough position (or at least one in which he/she can afford to wait a little bit), and has position on the Villain for all but one hand (when Villain is the button). K7o is a crap hand no matter what, and the time would have come when a good hand/favourable situation would have come along and Hero could have let Villain aggrotard his chips to him.
great video, james. very interesting seeing a cool tournament spot. i like the boom replayer just as much as the normal replayer that you use. it was a refreshing change of scenery. also, i never thanked you for the quick reply and the help that you gave regarding my email. thanks so much for all the help :)
+Jeffrey Pavao you're very welcome, and I'm glad you enjoyed this video as well =)
+James (SplitSuit) yeah i don't mind the replayer at all. Either way is fine as long as is James giving feedback on the hands :)
agree with 3-betting pre or at least stabbing flop to prevent awkward situations like this - then if you face any serious play back you can let go quite easily. as played i think hero has to find a fold, unless villain is a complete spazz you're pretty much never good here. i was expecting a weirdly played j10 but a set also makes sense.
A set does not make sense here at all, nor does a str8. The way villain played the hand was very unconventional and even sub-optimal.
+John Griller considering the flop was checked back i think a turned set makes sense. i agree if he had a straight it would have been played unconventionally, hence "weirdly played j10". even if he had neither of these though, his river shove would indicate to me that he was at least ahead of hero's exact hand so it's still a fold.
3 bet pre flop and bet the flop and u should be winning here? please correct me if I am wrong n thanks for the video
+Arjun Chintaram I think that's fair to say overall, yes. And you're very welcome.
If hero bets the flop and gets called, are you barreling the 8 on the turn as well or trying to get to showdown cheaply?
i think by barrelling youre unnecessarily turning a showdownable hand into a bluff and youre probably never getting called by worse and probably not folding out too much better. especially consider its hard to for hero to have a lot of strong value hands like AQ/AK and QQ+ after just calling pre flop
+dennybm i think the c/call range has us in bad shape. So unless you think he c/calls with things like K4 and Q9...I just check behind on the turn.
+James (SplitSuit) Hi James, I think it's precisely because his c/call range puts us in bad shape (I'm assuming he folds pocket pairs from 22-99, sometimes 10s) that we should just check behind on the flop to keep his range open and induce bluffs or value bets from weaker hands. I think on the turn he will probably barrel his entire air range, Qx for thin value and some K2-K7 which we chop with on the turn. If he checks the turn we can comfortably bet Kx for value knowing that if he check calls his range is considerably weaker than if he check called the turn and we can go for another barrel on a blank river as well to get crying calls from Qx. Since his range is also considerably weaker with a river check we might even get Kx that chops with us to fold (assuming river did not come a 7). Seems weird to talk about getting a worse hand to call and better hand that chops to fold with the hand action. However, I'm assuming that with position and his potential range we are effectively forcing him to make more calling/folding mistakes and allowing us to play closer to perfect. Of course when he raises it is another story but overall I think a check back on the flop allows an aggressive villain to make more mistakes than if we bet.
Checking behind also lets him attack whenever the board gets gross (4-straight card), and unless you plan on call/call pretty much ever single turn and river runout...you put yourself in a situation where you allow him to actualize his equity and quite possibly blow you off on a big river bet (since, what hand would you NOT 3bet with and then NOT bet the flop with that's strong enough to call an overbet on the river?)
+James (SplitSuit) thanks for both responses :). So if I understand correctly, by betting the flop we keep strong hands in our perceived range, whereas if it goes check check and bet call on the turn, we only represent a marginal hand and can be blown of the pot easily.
Just really unlucky we rivered 2 pair. Otherwise it goes check check on river, played perfectly...
So james, im relatively new to poker, ive been playing for a couple weeks and the more i play the more into it ive become, ive ordered a couple books on poker theory and the maths behind it and what not tho i feel like my learning it being stunted by my lack of understanding of the terminology, none of my friends are poker players so this is something im persuing solo, so i was wondering if the poker slang is something that id just pikc up over time or there was somewhere where i could learn it all?
+James Scarpellino welcome to the game James! Unfortunately, poker jargon is is extremely vast so it can be tough to wrap your head around it all. I suggest asking questions when you don't understand a term tbh. My forum is pretty good for answer those kinds of questions: forum.redchippoker.com/
James (SplitSuit) cheers man, keep up the good work :P
+James Scarpellino thanks James =)
James Scarpellino my new podcast episode sounds right up your alley =) redchippoker.com/how-to-study-poker-improve-faster-podcast/
other replayer is much prettier
Bad call against a polarised shove. Unless you have history with vilain you better fold and continue with your 28bb.
Really don't like your reasoning for betting flop. This is a clear check and call one street on bricks unimproved hand.
Boom! Replayer? Can´t complain!
+ChanCeNecK yup...and glad you are OK with it!
The Poker Bank
Oh, totally! And I´m working on my issue of not being able to share hands with other people at the moment. Maybe you could review one of the hands that I played in the future as well, but I feel that this is the main issue that I still have to sort out to become a profitable player. Because I´ve never shared a single hand with pros or forums in my life before...
What does 35/31-33 mean?
+andyv123 those are HUD numbers for VPIP/PFR - #Hands. You can learn more about them here: redchippoker.com/basic-hud-stats/
Of course had it when he check shoves the river, this is never a bluff in this spot, villian could have easily been slow-playing JT, two pair on flop, etc etc. Hero is beating no value raising hands, terrible call
You'd be surprised how often small bets can induce tons of bluffs... But u have to know ur opponent in these situations.
8 on the Turn. Gross.