Thanks for having us on, Don! I definitely slammed some cups of coffee right before this and it shows haha. Happy to answer any questions if folks have them.
You did a great job. You were clear and provided several examples to back up your opinions. You should see my live QAs when I used to drink coffee beforehand. I was all over the place, going off on tangents all of the time.
Do you think going for the deffered tuition option is the best one? Given all the kicking out, I'm supposed to start by the end of the month and I was considering the upfront to save some money
@@LeonC0704 tough to say! If I had the money I probably would have paid up front. You end up saving 11k which is a pretty large amount of money. I still think if you work hard and play by the rules you won’t have anything to worry about.
As someone who did Aa more than a year and a half ago I can confirm many of the things in this video. I did the 6m online program during the pandemic. My time in this bootcamp was the darkest time of my life. The stress bled into every aspect of my life. The anxiety I had wouldn’t let me sleep more than 3-4 hours per night. The fear of being in the hook for 31k was all consuming. Looking back, I wish I never passed their initial screening process-that way I wouldn’t have wasted 8 months of my life. You read that right-8 months. I kept getting deferred, it was crushing. Also looking back, I wish I went in with more experience. I am just not good at coding and I had no business enrolling in this curse…but I wanted to change my life so badly. In the end, I deferred out and to my surprise, they didn’t charge a penny. I cried tears of joy that I was finally free. The help is there if you do ask for it but no help would make me into a good coder, I truly sucked lol. I thank the lord and all the saints that I failed at Aa and not in another bootcamp. The others are wayyyy less forgiving. Yea these companies may “pass you” regardless, resulting in less stress but if you don’t get a job because you lack actual talent like I did, you’re out of luck and in the hook for tuition.
It's not you, it's the terrible Aa curriculum, they promise to teach you yet when you show up day 1 they make you out to be some sort of special person for not knowing javascript on day 1.
I’m currently enrolled! I definitely understand how you feel. Personally I had the privilege of having a solid foundation of coding to feel confident with to this point. Alas I do wish the screening was more difficult for the reasons you mentioned. Many seep through the gaps, and for them it can seem predatory. New policy is that as long as you do every assignment, turn in all HW and attempt every project and test, if you differ out they won’t make you pay. I do actually really enjoy the camp and new curriculum. I’d strongly advise anyone considering going to really take 6-12 months on their own, doing pre course for whatever bootcamp they are interested in, build their own project and do some basic coding problems daily. At the end of the day it’s on the individual to put their best foot forward.
I graduated AA in 2021, and BOOTCAMP is right. I'd do it again though. Had a great job within a month of graduating and i was a restaurant worker before that.
Thank you for sharing your experience, it gives hope to people like myself who are apprehensive about making a serious career change. Did they do exactly what they said? You don't have to pay until you find a solid job? Not to butt into your business but the job you found, was it enough for you to pay back the cost of the course and enough to live comfortably?
I am currently in aA and I found some of these things to still be true but others not so much. The strike system is still there but my instructor is very lenient. I should have received many by now and I have not gotten one. I have been teaching myself different programming languages for many years but I joined app academy so I could get a top to bottom education and have the tools necessary to join the work force confidently. I stressed during my interviews that I wanted a classroom environment where I was being taught, not having to learn on my own. Been there, done that. I was told that is how it would be but in my experience, you learn everything on your own and then review as a class afterwards. The only thing I can say about aA that helps me is the structure. Everything else I have learned or could learn for free. With the ISA, if you get any job over $50k then you owe back, which is still better than having to owe upfront if you can't afford it. I would like to finish off with the idea of the them being very elitist, that has not been my experience at all. They do have strict rules but they have gone out of their way to make sure everyone is successful and helping those who are not. You have to take a daily survey for a long time and then just a weekly survey, but it is all about getting your input to make it better. Their course is not something that I think is going to work for me, since it's so much on your own, but I do feel like they offer everything you need to be successful.
Nice informational review. In my experience, they didn't make any substantial changes based on the feedback students gave in surveys daily to weekly for many cohorts, potentially years, so who knows how actionable it is or what the purpose of those surveys are. Also depending on what you leave in them, any of that "help" you're referring to gets yanked away. I’m curious if you’d still recommend them and what you think on how App Academy's been fined twice (at least) by Bureau for Private Postsecondary Education, in one case for 50k. Citation 1516032 in '15 for $50,000 & citation 1920276 in '20 for $7,000. One of the reasons for example was that they got caught not verifying people’s college degrees or high school transcripts during the admissions/screening process of students/customers, among many other things. They've also had four lawsuits between students/customers and themselves in 2018 (x2), 2019 (x1), and 2020 (x1) at least (Hash Map Laps Inc aka App Academy)
I decided to fail out, so I didn't have to pay. When ChatGPT was released in the fall it was obvious to me that the programming industry was going to be one of the Industry's that would be replaced by AI. I tested chatgpt against all of the projects and tests that I had already taken and it aced them all. My personal opinion, don't start a path onto programming now. One of the first jobs that will be displaced will be the entry level programmer.
Don't worry about this. I went through this im currently at week 17, its hard you need to work hard but if you put in hours, then you will 100% be successfull in this bootcamp at least the part I ve seen so far wasn't something people can't do.
idk if I agree about not worrying about this, many were in my cohort and cohorts near mine. Imagine every single week, for months on end (half a year to almost a full one of 9 months), you risk being charged $31,000 and kicked out or dismissed for a variety of rules or plot twist questions on exams or last-minute project requirements. Every single week. All it took was once slipping up, burning out temporarily, or etc. like attending a birthday party as one alumnus mentioned in this video. ~183 days to ~274 days you are worrying about being billed $31,000. You think you can learn super well and produce your best possible work in that environment, while completely relaxed and not worried with life? What if the unexpected happens like power outages and storms in Texas that led at least one customer/student to have to leave this program as the video mentioned? Sure, some weeks were more guaranteed passes like HTML/CSS-focused one. But those were rare and few ones in between that did not make up for the majority of the 180-270+ days experience of $31,000 fear. No wonder most don't post about them online. Plus, they contain most of the (negative) venting internally by having one fill out daily "feedback" venting forms coupled with a mental health person on staff so the majority of it never makes way elsewhere online.
@@na-ch8es I thought if you flunk out, you don't owe them? What stipulations do you still owe them under ? Under the ISA payment plan where you don't pay until you get a job
@@zunny120 you don't have to take my word for it -- anyone can reach out to their staff and read the contract in detail (~30pgs). if you paid upfront in full, they didn't give refunds if you flunk out. Even if you flunk out after X times not passing an exam and deferring, the ISA contract states you'd owe full tuition after a certain time length in the program. Past the halfway point the contract states you'd owe them full tuition if you withdraw. You owe them an expensive prorated amount if you withdraw prior to halfway point as well. In both ISA or paid upfront full, if you're dismissed for something like accumulating 10 strikes (among other niche rules), you get either no refund or charged $31k. There's so many ways you do owe them, and yes -- even if you do flunk out (according to the contract, if past X time length in program). There may be some specific cases where they don't charge tuition if one fails out after the halfway point, but this definitely varied, wasn't always the case, and largely depended on who the student/customer was.
I am so glad I found your videos!! I am currently in a career change from nursing and definitely want to go into software development but I have no idea where to begin and have been so lost. All these academies came up for me and was even considering it, thankfully I stumbled upon your videos and has saved me big time! Currently have applied to two apprenticeships so lets see how it goes. *Fingers Crossed*
I really enjoyed your review. I am going through the APP Academy enrollment process. I hope i learn alot but i also hope its not going to so stressful or crazy as mentioned in the video. Thank you for the video
I may have been in John's cohort at one point (I got deferred a few times). I made it through the entire course, though I didn't graduate and go through their job-search. I can confirm what he said about the 24 week program. Halfway through the course, I was at like 8-9 strikes so I personally just wrote up a bash/python script to automate the stupid check-in thing. I specifically remember the "cheating scandal" John was referring to. I found the Instructors to be competent, though TA's were hit and miss.
As someone who just finished mod 5 of aA, I wouldn't discourage people who want to get into aA tbh. Its hard and you have to work hard thats right, but sometimes there are some easy weeks which we call break weeks, there are hell weeks and you need to be prepared for that. I would say just practice Javascript before joining aA, 2-3 weeks of javascript will get you ready for the first mod. After that just work as much as you can and you will get to where you wanna be in couple months. Mod1 is the hardest for most folks because they dont know anything about code coming into the course, mod 2 is the second hardest mod because it's about Data Structures and Algorithms, especially week 6 is one of those hell weeks I told u about. After that mod 3 is pretty chill one of the easiest one, mod 4 is about backend its kind of chill if you study hard, mod 5 is pretty hard, its about react and redux. They try to teach you react and redux in 1.5 weeks which is crazy lol. After that mod 6, from what I ve heard its also hard, and so is mod 7.
Curious what your thoughts are on the fact that aA has been fined two times at least by Bureau for Private Postsecondary Education, in one case for 50,000. Citation 1516032 in '15 for $50,000 & citation 1920276 in '20 for $7,000 at least. They've also had four lawsuits between students/customers and themselves in 2018 (x2), 2019 (x1), and 2020 (x1) at least (Hash Map Laps Inc aka App Academy)
Maybe this is addressed later in the podcast, I'm only 26 minutes in, but I wonder if the reason why app academy has such a heavy pressure load and so much stress and is so unforgiving is to artificially keep their numbers up. If you start kicking people out for such minor offenses, especially if you get to keep the money, those folks don't get counted in your placement statistics. No way is it necessary to have that strict in environment just to become a web dev.
idk, but for me, strictness is the only way i can learn and make something of myself. i dropped out of college because no one holds you accountable. app academy's analness and ruthlessness was tough, but absolutely necessary for an ADHD-type low motivation person like me
@@na-ch8es You keep leaving these subliminal comments but won't explain what you are talking about. If you are trying to warn people then please explain otherwise it just seems like you are fear-mongering for attention.
@@user-ho1oe8zo7o it's not for attention. If it were wouldn't I use a real name, or any name? Or a profile picture and a channel with videos, maybe try to use this moment to get followers or something? And reply to everyone who asks me something on here, or most people in general on this video? While it's true I haven't explained everywhere on this video, in some thread areas I've actually explained what I'm talking about in great detail. Also, some replies were later deleted or never made public for unknown reasons.
Just a few minutes into this video and I’m already flabbergasted. You cannot walk into a tech company and land a software engineering roll with no experience. MOST first time developers will end up in a support roll for at least a year. It’s a great way to build a foundation for the future.
don't worry, depending on how elite or diverse your background is, they'll excuse these for you and go easier on you. Depended on the background of a student, not all are treated equally. Same case for some who withdrew or failed out of the program near the end, tuition waived (but not waived for all) yet they were still encouraged to list a/A brand on their LinkedIn and other job searching materials.
I’m an AppAc grad. I don’t think many people from my cohort that were placed with a partner company or were hired by the school to inflate numbers. All the people I studied with went to work for start ups and bigger companies like AirBnB, Amazon, and Roblox. The rant about the strikes and stress thing is kind of overblown. It’s not really that bad. Dude just sounds kind of fragile🤷♀️
A key part of the number inflation can be from accepting a lot of students/customers upfront and designing the program in such a way that the bulk of the students defer, withdraw, fail out, or pause the program during it. The video mentioned how any bootcamp could take the top 20-30% of a cohort and claim success, when those top students likely would've been fine in most bootcamp programs or maybe self-teaching. Idk if the point behind potential number inflation was from partnered companies or the school hiring them. In my experience most got their jobs not due to a/A's alumni network or partnered companies but from outside of that including companies like you've mentioned. However, a lot of other bootcamp cohorts' or even community college top students also work at these companies or startups -- that part isn't unique to a/A. Also, a sizable portion of a/A's numbers for alumni comes from non-software engineering jobs and are instead things like customer to sales tech jobs.
@@can1beatme started at 90k then jumped to 120. Goal is to get good enough to command 150 by the end of this year, preferably before June. Gonna ask for a raise, though, instead of jumping around. I really like the current project I’m working on.
@@na-ch8es The employment statistic comes from time to placement after graduation. Most people get hired after about 5-7 months after completing the bootcamp. A good number, but not the bulk, get jobs sooner and a little after that. I don’t know anyone from my cohort that took a more than that to get a job. And even if the number is “inflated” because people drop out, most people don’t like to work hard in general. That a lot of people can’t run a marathon is not a reason to criticize a marathon. Some people can’t hack it. Some people just want to win medals but don’t want to train.
"Is that cheating?"1:08:01 + other sources: *Lawsuits via company that owns then, Hash Map Labs Inc (not found via App Academy) *Reddit posts & comments *Yelp not recommended mixed reviews (400+ not shown in default shown reviews) *Better Business Bureau rating and any publicly seen complaints *BPPE fines/citations (a/A has 2x, one for $50k) and why occurred, one audit found data missing like CIRR *No CIRR *TeamBlind reviews (former students turned staff) *Glassdoor reviews (high & low rated ones, students turned staff) *InHerSight (former students turned staff) *Other RUclips videos & comments *a/A influenced reviews on websites like Yelp (hoodies/jackets for them, referral links, contacting ppl who left bad reviews to get them to change it into good reviews on them, etc.) *Some online review websites have more mixed ones than others *Consider date & type of program for any review on them, very diff. by year, type, economy *Some websites automatically sort displayed reviews, can take time to see low-rated reviews on them throughout years
Nice interview, I guess In the end it’s called a bootcamp for a reason I kinda like the strictness, it brings people together and creates lasting relationships.
Idk if justifying/normalizing an expensive product that causes customers to have panic attacks or cry (among other things), as mentioned in the video and in another comment on this vid, is the way to go. There are more affordable quality alternatives that don't. There were people in my cohort who bought a dog or were seeing a doctor during it just to help them cope with the program. Another alumnus actually told me they started seeing a medical professional post-program prior to starting a job so I truly hope people understand the gravity of how bad it can be in a/A (particularly for their full-time longer program that can go on for 9 months). Those who found it not as bad, but still stressful at times, typically already had either a computer science/engineering/STEM college degree, a halfway complete engineering/computer science degree, did the free version App Academy Open prior to the paid bootcamp version, did a different bootcamp prior, or had some sort of tutor or engineering partner or friend for extra assistance in times of need. Doable if from background of 0, but just know that you'll likely be on the side of finding it very hard at times & proceed with extreme caution then due to their cost pricing.
@@na-ch8es I really agree, still, I think such programs are very effective in stuffing knowledge into people in a quick amount of time (compare to uni, which takes at least 3 years to prepare someone for the workforce) It might not be that these bootcamp are immoral or inhumane, u just got to know how well you’re able to take pressure and give it a try.
@@okayokay433 I see where you are coming from, but are you speaking as a recent former student of an a/A program or as a speculator with an outside perspective? In theory yes, what you're saying would be nice. Yet this isn't quick. A/A has a year long program and a 6-month that can go 9-month and some end up stuck in that contract for longer if a life event occurs. At the 9-month or year mark, one could've been halfway through a 2-year college degree with legit credentials (also cheaper). Some a/A grads don't end up in SWE/SDE but instead in sales, customer service, and other non-engineering tech jobs so their expensive prep doesn't mean entry into the SWE/SDE workforce. There are self-taught folks who make it through in less than three years independent of bootcamps. Other non-a/A bootcamps don't operate like this (not as much "pressure") with some being just as effective if not more than theirs. There also isn't an option to just give a/A a try aside from a few weeks that have a prorated cost of thousands at exit. Typically you either do it or you don't, unless you have $4k or so lying around, resign from your job, and put all life on hold for a month just to try.
That basically means their stats are skewed... I agree that sounds kind of gross. I just hope they are upfront about their methods. I'm going to jump on a call with one the reps, and will ask questions about the stress level. Thanks for the heads up.
I look at it this way. It’s free until you get hired. So what’s the issue here. If you get kicked out, you keep whatever you learnt plus you don’t pay…so I really don’t see a problem here. Except you pay even if you get kicked out. I doubt you do because you don’t make it to job placement period, hence you don’t get the job that affords you the resources to pay. Please correct me if I’m wrong about any part of my statement here. Nice informative video though.
In my time there, when people failed 3 tests and demonstrated they really tried, they were kicked out but didn’t have to pay anything. It was just a scare tactic. You just don’t wanna miss classes and then fail out..
Unfortunately, this isn't true. Not free until hired and not just scare tactics. If you withdraw due to it not being the right program for you, needing to get a job, family hardships, you not being "good" at programming, or etc. you're billed an expensive prorated daily amount that is about ~$1,000/week. If you've been reported on for X reason like inappropriate behavior to cheating, you get kicked out and billed full tuition. There was one case where someone "took inspiration" from a part of a diff. cohort group project's backend, used it in their solo project, and was removed while billed $31k. Even if you withdraw after the halfway point, it switches from prorated to full amount despite you not having finished the entire program. In my cohort there was someone who withdrew to accept a QA job right after the halfway point passed and aA billed him $31,000 since the job offer was just above the $50k mark. You also get billed full tuition and kicked out if you get 10 strikes, which has happened to people (this video even mentioned one case of it).
And it doesn't end once you graduate from the program either. Once you pass all exams and projects, you enter the job seeking phase. 10 strikes risk continues and X amount of job applications per week or else. A career coach didn't like how a graduate replied to a potential employer. So he decided to kick that graduated student out and bill them $31,000 full tuition. Granted, said alumnus was supposedly rude to a potential employer's offer being below market pay, but not sure that warranted them being dismissed after they'd successfully made it through and billed full price despite no job.
@@na-ch8es Cheating and plagiarism (copy of someone else’s code), once confirmed, those people definitely deserves to get kicked out. If you decide to quit the program for whatever reason or finding a job halfway, it’s normal to still pay whatever tuitions have been accrued, no? The prorated amount and other legal consequences are mentioned in the ISA, which students have to read and sign, so there should be no surprise there..
@@hyrobreath95 I was answering Frankie's question, which included "If you get kicked out, you keep whatever you learnt plus you don’t pay…so I really don’t see a problem here. Except you pay even if you get kicked out. I doubt you do because you don’t make it to job placement period..." He ended his question with "Please correct me if I’m wrong about any part of my statement here" which is what I did, since your first reply didn't explain what I did. To explain further, the person in question for my first comment may not have cheated. It was contested. They wrote the front and middle ends custom on their own for a solo project. The justification heard about for what happened to him was that parts of their backend may have been transferred over from a group project's. Again, not the entire backend. So what % of this solo project was really copied? Approx 70% or so assumed custom if not more. I'm not advocating for people to do what this guy did or saying it's right, but they got absolutely no warning as a customer/student about to graduate. This was for their final graduation project. They'd already built one solo project completely custom nothing transferred into it. Same with two group projects. Passed all exams no cheating. Didn't have a lot of strikes, if any. They did this where they submitted one project with most of it custom after already submitting 3 custom original projects, 8-10+ exams, few strikes -- kicked out immediately and billed $31,000 with no warning. Who's to say that wasn't a misunderstanding, I have no idea but what it does show is that a/A is ruthless. Edit: said student had never deferred, too. Had passed everything up until the very end project and immediate dismissal with bill.
You guys definitely want to do some research before just so you have some knowledge and don’t struggle with the concepts as you go. They have curriculum open for everyone so you should check that. Also, I think they have a prep course that is paid and is about JavaScript but if you then join the main bootcamps is deducted.
Exactly. The "high" salaries they report are for SF and NYC areas, which have high state income tax in addition to high cost of living. Meanwhile some of the "lower" salaries transparently reported on CIRR in the past tended to be in states with no state income tax and lower costs of living. (CIRR reports entry level salaries while a/A marketing sometimes uses non-entry level salaries.) An example is $100k in SF area is ~$65k-$75k after state income tax & other taxes, rent (another ~$20k+) and everyday expenses will knock this way back too (not including the 15% or so monthly paid to a/A). They also only have offices in NYC or SF (highest salaries nationwide they get a % of) versus other tech hubs. Between their 2 full-time programs, they only have the 24-week program online outside of covid lockdown which is more expensive than the now in person 16-week.
@@albuquerquehotspot7835 then why is only the most expensive a/A program type (24week) online whereas the cheaper 16week one is in person, at only the highest paid tech hubs of NYC or SF versus other tech hubs throughout the country? Also 16week was online during covid lockdown so it could be a fully online program too post lockdown but isn't when I checked. Furthermore, if there was time to develop an entire new (more expensive) program that includes more industry-relevant tech like Python, then there must've been time to revamp the 16week (cheaper) curriculum from Ruby to Python or etc. This coupled w/ more online marketing for 24week vs 16week seems like nudges/incentivization to funnel ppl into the most expensive program. (Ya they sometimes advertise free curriculum but some students in paid program types were initially doing the free one then converted over.)
@@albuquerquehotspot7835 while it's great it worked out for you, you have bias in three ways. (1) Survivorship bias for being one of the few to graduate from an a/A cohort as we've heard in this video that only 30-40 ppl per cohort starting with over 100-130+ make it through. (2) We've also heard in the vid that not everyone of this 20-30% survivors are able to get a SWE job, or a tech job at all, and return to their former type wishing they'd never done a/A. (3) I saw an initial comment of yours on this vid where you mentioned being a former a/A coach, so former employee bias too. Not sure I'd call that landing a SWE job immediately since who knows how long you worked for a/A prior to getting this job. That in general didn't answer my question. And just because you were able to land a SWE job after surviving a/A, working for them for X time, and then getting a SWE job doesn't mean you wouldn't have had this same success of eventually getting a SWE job had you done an alternative cheaper program or self-taught with 1-2 mentors or tutors for a few hrs/week if you get stuck (which is also cheaper). Not to mention that alternatives don't treat their students/customers this way as described in many troubling points of this vid.
isn't there a 3% acceptance rate that a/A claims in marketing, that it's one of the most selective programs? I'd think the "screening process" mentioned at 00:28:23 if done properly should be filtering out those that aren't passionate or "intelligent" enough as you say. How are people who aren't smart enough making it into such a selective bootcamp in the first place to cause only ~20-30% to successfully graduate then, with a 3% acceptance rate? If you disregarding these facts is not having bias, then idk what you call this. The vid also mentioned ppl being dismissed not related to academic reasons like strikes, someone making it through and not being able to get a tech-related job, and someone who didn’t make it through but got a SWE job despite this.
@@na-ch8es I don't understand why you are mad. Many people who fail to graduate drop out in the first month. Cause they fail the assessments. The first month's assessments are the easiest ones. If you can't pass them maybe bootcamp is not for u man. In my cohort we started with 130-140 ppl and after week2 we had like 40 people. I'm currently on week 17 and we still have around 40 ppl. If you ask me not all of us are super smart or super good at this. Many people struggle and have panic attacks but they never give up, they work so hard. If you can't do this maybe apply to another bootcamp but you will have to work so hard in those bootcamls as well.
Love your videos. I am currently active duty Air Force and plan to skill-bridge my last 6 months of my contract in the code platoon. Before I start my skill-bridge I will have my associates in computer science from weber state university. Skillbridge is a program that allows service member to still get paid and receive benefits from the military while serving an internship. Code platoon is a coding boot camp that qualifies as a skill-bridge program and is free of charge for skill-bridge applicants. My question is if you could possibly do a podcast with graduates from code platoon. I would love to see that video and thank you for all the entertaining content.
The caveat is that it’s right at the end of the 24-week program, only 1-2 or so weeks long (including a week project building). Most could self-teach Python in the same time period after knowing a different full stack decently well. Interesting that their newer, less refined/tested program featuring Python is actually mostly a JavaScript full stack for the majority of it, yet costs ~$7k-$10k more than the purely JavaScript older but likely higher quality one. Many staff in it also hadn't graduated from the 24week, instead 16week, so in the "Python" one about half the time or more you're taught by ppl who took the JavaScript 16week (maybe this'll change but it was often like the clueless leading the clueless)...and you don't start building a single portfolio project / web application until right at the halfway mark of the contract, so ISA terms means by the time you only have one group project done you now owe a/A $31k regardless of what happens.
If you're 18 college is the move. Not just for learning but for the college experience and the people you meet. If you're upper 20s early 30s a bootcamp could be great
I watched the entire video so i am so disappointed the way bootcamp treats his own students. Bootcamps should be a place where people should learn with passion not putting them a pressure. This is reason people are skeptical to apply for bootcamps. People will pay a tone of money then you got kicked out after failing 3 times exam. Bootcamps should change the teaching style in fact they bombard too much information in a short period of the time. That's not good for your brain. One day i was watching a video from Uncle Stef Mishook saying bootcamps teach their students like in military forces. Self taught + a mentor or 2 mentors you will make it. Thanks for the video sir Don.
Matsonia it’s called bootcamp for a reason. I say this respectfully. You might have paid but it’s still a bootcamp and they make you aware of their conventions.
@@dannybrown317 I say this respectfully, that not all coding bootcamps are like this in how they treat customers/students. Military bootcamps aren't 6-9 months long like the full-time 24-week one either. Not all prospective or current customers had awareness of specific conventions when joining given the rushed nature of it (their "admissions" sales specialists earn commission/bonus related to # students they get to enroll, check Glassdoor). 20-30+ page contract with vague, confusing language at parts. This video shows how some students didn't know some rules' details, or forgot them, and needed to recheck so idk if one can say they make everyone aware of all the conventions that they have.
Please set a reminder on your phone now so you don't forget! I'd love to hear as I've always been into tech, I am savvy, I've not taught myself any coding languages, but REALLY want to learn and hear more feedback about App Acad.
I feel like the program is great after reviewing the syllabus and listening to this video but its very conflicting now that they've expanded upon the strike system. It really sounds like you have to take a complete gamble on it: if you make it through without getting kicked out then you come out with a decent experience and good amount of knowledge and resources but on the other hand if you do get kicked out, you're now losing upwards of what, $20,000 because of a flawed administrative system they have? School seems great and was my first choice up until this video, now it's deterred me quite a bit, especially being someone with no prior coding experience.
@@na-ch8es Correct; and while that's a great point- it wasn't my main focus for that comment. More so that the program seems great(at least for me) but the strike system has really deterred me from the program. That mostly is not on the doubts that I would fail but just that they even have the system, and that they collect the tuition if you fail, for whatever reason.
@@LetsGetExponential That makes sense. What were the other reasons they used to be your top choice and were great for you compared to alternatives, until you learned about the strike system?
Sounds like an alright bootcamp, but giving people strike for every offense and kicking people out before they can complete the course then requiring the students who got kicked out to pay tuition in full , eventhough they didn't get to attend the rest of the class is shady practice and doesn't sit well with me. If you kick people out of the program before course completion, the student should not be obligated to pay rest of balance. Once you get kicked out, all charges should cease and desist. Cannot continue collecting payment if student is no longer attending the class. That's highway robbery and bad practice.
I been looking for bootcamp for the past few days and was gonna apply App Academy because of their organized schedule and plan. I think this video turn me down unfortunately. I'm a graduated college student with minimum knowledge on Coding ( I did one course about SQL and I guess that was it). I love to get into becoming a full-stack developer. Does anyone have suggestions of where I should go? deeply appreciate your comment ; )
Alright so I’m in week 6 now. It is hard. Truly stressful, but the strikes are easy. Like… you have to be really clueless to get 10 strikes and get kicked out
Caution with the strikes since it depends on who your mod lead and TAs are (they’re the ones enforcing the rules or carrying out what leadership decides). Some are more strict than others so luck of the draw for who your cohort has. Some cohorts have had people kicked out due to strikes or close calls (9/10 at end) because of strictness. But maybe they’ve also relaxed it after this video came out.
@@LeonC0704 Hi Leon! I would love to hear a little more about your current experience with App Academy since you’re currently going through it. Are you doing in person or online? Would you recommend the 24 week program for someone without any coding experience/background? :)
HAHAHAHAAHAHAH I'm starting on the 28th and now I have anxiety hahahahahaha. Man... this put the fear of God in me. I'm doing the 16week in person program
@@LeonC0704 it's really true tho, im currently on week 17 of the full stack online program and it takes everything. They say 10 hours day, but usually its much more than that, and this is online program. In person its much harder but you prob get more help as well. Just ask as many questions as you can, work hard you can get through this
@@AllThisPower because it's more strict. You have to leave the comfort of your house, and you ll have to spend time traveling that ll take out time from your study time. Also in the in person program you have to be in the class all the time, whereas in the online program you can just turn off your camera for couple mins and do something else, don't get em wrong if your camera is turned off, you might get a strike but its still less strict.Also 16 week is really not enough for someone who doesn't know how to code to become a software engineer. So you will have to do some kind of prepwor for a month or two. The good thing about it tho less people go 16 week program so the instructors will be all yours, you will get to ask whatever questions you have. My friend said they started with 12 ppl and only 7 graduated from the in person 16 week. On the other hand my cohort (24 week online) started with more than 130 and right now on week 19 we only have about 37. My advise would be just try it out if you want, do the prep work and study really hard. If you can make it through the first two months then you have 90% of the chance of graduating, if you can graduate you ll have 90% of chance to find a job.
Yeah, something I wish I'd personally known is that their parent company Hash Map Labs Inc has had four recent lawsuits at least between students/customers and themselves/App Academy, but it isn't as visible when you search unless you specifically look up their parent company. Filing dates in 2018 (x2), 2019 (x1), and 2020 (x1) at least. In general, anyone also waives away their rights to a jury trial when signing their contracts to become a student/customer.
It gets worse - by the time one realizes it’s not for them or it seems off from their perspective, the prorated amount of nearly $300/day meant ppl typically paid $1k-$4k or so to get out “early” during the first month. Curriculum takes a nosedive after month 1 too. (If you inquire about withdrawing, they try to talk to you about why and indirectly persuade you to stay in until contract point of full tuition owed, then they don't care whether you stay or withdraw. They also take note of which students ask early about the withdrawal process, or almost do it, and monitor you behind the scenes until a lead staff member decides it's fine. If you do start the withdrawal process earlier on, they sometimes try to persuade/offer switching to the alternative program instead like going from the 24-week to 16-week.) By contract terms, they make more guaranteed $ if one is kicked out/dismissed from their rules or withdraws after the halfway point (full tuition owed vs % of monthly income if successfully graduated & eventually hired). You’ve contractually agreed to be a paying customer, they don’t have to treat you well or provide quality. Or if you paid upfront, you were also out of luck since you already paid in full regardless of if dismissed or failed out, quality, treatment, or job outcome (no refunds). Also, their admissions (sales) specialists earn commission/bonus related to # students they get to enroll (check Glassdoor) so take time to read and understand literally every line of a long 20-30+ page contract. You don't start building a single portfolio project web application until the halfway point of the contract as well. So by the time you finally build one web project (group project), you now owe a/A $31k no matter what happens via ISA contract.
...except, it doesn't sometimes. Those that it did for either typically worked for a/A for a few months to over a year, and/or had a college degree (tended to be the STEM type or other in-demand majors from good colleges) with decent work experience prior to doing a/A. Up to half of their partnership network jobs weekly announced are not SWE/SDE ones and are instead platform support, support engineer, QA, IT, technical consultant/associate, tech support, implementation specialist, and so on. A portion of alumni end up returning to their previous industry professions. In both cases of either non-SWE/SDE tech jobs (sales & customer-facing) or returning to your former one after grad, this still adds to their placement of SWE/SDE coding bootcamp success rates. This video even mentioned a student/customer being kicked out for non-academic reasons yet became a SWE after despite that, whereas others who did graduate ended up in jobs like technical writing or returned to their previous profession. Idk if I'd call their style working then. And this video isn't just highlighting outlier cases, this is representative of the average cohort outcome and experience (at least from the past two years) speaking as someone who recently graduated and knows ppl in several recent cohorts.
Thanks for having us on, Don! I definitely slammed some cups of coffee right before this and it shows haha. Happy to answer any questions if folks have them.
You did a great job. You were clear and provided several examples to back up your opinions. You should see my live QAs when I used to drink coffee beforehand. I was all over the place, going off on tangents all of the time.
You guys were great, very insightful! Thanks for doing this
Do you think going for the deffered tuition option is the best one? Given all the kicking out, I'm supposed to start by the end of the month and I was considering the upfront to save some money
@@LeonC0704 tough to say! If I had the money I probably would have paid up front. You end up saving 11k which is a pretty large amount of money. I still think if you work hard and play by the rules you won’t have anything to worry about.
@@artdog73 hey any open spots in your company?
As someone who did Aa more than a year and a half ago I can confirm many of the things in this video. I did the 6m online program during the pandemic. My time in this bootcamp was the darkest time of my life. The stress bled into every aspect of my life. The anxiety I had wouldn’t let me sleep more than 3-4 hours per night. The fear of being in the hook for 31k was all consuming. Looking back, I wish I never passed their initial screening process-that way I wouldn’t have wasted 8 months of my life. You read that right-8 months. I kept getting deferred, it was crushing. Also looking back, I wish I went in with more experience. I am just not good at coding and I had no business enrolling in this curse…but I wanted to change my life so badly. In the end, I deferred out and to my surprise, they didn’t charge a penny. I cried tears of joy that I was finally free. The help is there if you do ask for it but no help would make me into a good coder, I truly sucked lol. I thank the lord and all the saints that I failed at Aa and not in another bootcamp. The others are wayyyy less forgiving. Yea these companies may “pass you” regardless, resulting in less stress but if you don’t get a job because you lack actual talent like I did, you’re out of luck and in the hook for tuition.
I feel it must have taken a lot to share your story, but I'm glad you did.
It's not you, it's the terrible Aa curriculum, they promise to teach you yet when you show up day 1 they make you out to be some sort of special person for not knowing javascript on day 1.
I’m currently enrolled! I definitely understand how you feel. Personally I had the privilege of having a solid foundation of coding to feel confident with to this point.
Alas I do wish the screening was more difficult for the reasons you mentioned. Many seep through the gaps, and for them it can seem predatory.
New policy is that as long as you do every assignment, turn in all HW and attempt every project and test, if you differ out they won’t make you pay.
I do actually really enjoy the camp and new curriculum. I’d strongly advise anyone considering going to really take 6-12 months on their own, doing pre course for whatever bootcamp they are interested in, build their own project and do some basic coding problems daily.
At the end of the day it’s on the individual to put their best foot forward.
how many weeks progress wise did you reach before you deferred out?
I graduated AA in 2021, and BOOTCAMP is right. I'd do it again though. Had a great job within a month of graduating and i was a restaurant worker before that.
Thank you for sharing your experience, it gives hope to people like myself who are apprehensive about making a serious career change. Did they do exactly what they said? You don't have to pay until you find a solid job? Not to butt into your business but the job you found, was it enough for you to pay back the cost of the course and enough to live comfortably?
Thanx don, your hard work doesn’t go unnoticed… loved the video
These videos are BEYOND helpful. Thank you for creating this podcast.
I am currently in aA and I found some of these things to still be true but others not so much. The strike system is still there but my instructor is very lenient. I should have received many by now and I have not gotten one. I have been teaching myself different programming languages for many years but I joined app academy so I could get a top to bottom education and have the tools necessary to join the work force confidently. I stressed during my interviews that I wanted a classroom environment where I was being taught, not having to learn on my own. Been there, done that. I was told that is how it would be but in my experience, you learn everything on your own and then review as a class afterwards. The only thing I can say about aA that helps me is the structure. Everything else I have learned or could learn for free. With the ISA, if you get any job over $50k then you owe back, which is still better than having to owe upfront if you can't afford it. I would like to finish off with the idea of the them being very elitist, that has not been my experience at all. They do have strict rules but they have gone out of their way to make sure everyone is successful and helping those who are not. You have to take a daily survey for a long time and then just a weekly survey, but it is all about getting your input to make it better. Their course is not something that I think is going to work for me, since it's so much on your own, but I do feel like they offer everything you need to be successful.
Nice informational review. In my experience, they didn't make any substantial changes based on the feedback students gave in surveys daily to weekly for many cohorts, potentially years, so who knows how actionable it is or what the purpose of those surveys are. Also depending on what you leave in them, any of that "help" you're referring to gets yanked away. I’m curious if you’d still recommend them and what you think on how App Academy's been fined twice (at least) by Bureau for Private Postsecondary Education, in one case for 50k. Citation 1516032 in '15 for $50,000 & citation 1920276 in '20 for $7,000. One of the reasons for example was that they got caught not verifying people’s college degrees or high school transcripts during the admissions/screening process of students/customers, among many other things. They've also had four lawsuits between students/customers and themselves in 2018 (x2), 2019 (x1), and 2020 (x1) at least (Hash Map Laps Inc aka App Academy)
Did you get a job after graduation?
I decided to fail out, so I didn't have to pay. When ChatGPT was released in the fall it was obvious to me that the programming industry was going to be one of the Industry's that would be replaced by AI. I tested chatgpt against all of the projects and tests that I had already taken and it aced them all. My personal opinion, don't start a path onto programming now. One of the first jobs that will be displaced will be the entry level programmer.
I feel like my stress levels doubled from just listening to the guests stories today..
Don't worry about this. I went through this im currently at week 17, its hard you need to work hard but if you put in hours, then you will 100% be successfull in this bootcamp at least the part I ve seen so far wasn't something people can't do.
idk if I agree about not worrying about this, many were in my cohort and cohorts near mine. Imagine every single week, for months on end (half a year to almost a full one of 9 months), you risk being charged $31,000 and kicked out or dismissed for a variety of rules or plot twist questions on exams or last-minute project requirements. Every single week. All it took was once slipping up, burning out temporarily, or etc. like attending a birthday party as one alumnus mentioned in this video. ~183 days to ~274 days you are worrying about being billed $31,000. You think you can learn super well and produce your best possible work in that environment, while completely relaxed and not worried with life? What if the unexpected happens like power outages and storms in Texas that led at least one customer/student to have to leave this program as the video mentioned? Sure, some weeks were more guaranteed passes like HTML/CSS-focused one. But those were rare and few ones in between that did not make up for the majority of the 180-270+ days experience of $31,000 fear. No wonder most don't post about them online. Plus, they contain most of the (negative) venting internally by having one fill out daily "feedback" venting forms coupled with a mental health person on staff so the majority of it never makes way elsewhere online.
@@na-ch8es I thought if you flunk out, you don't owe them? What stipulations do you still owe them under ? Under the ISA payment plan where you don't pay until you get a job
@@zunny120 you don't have to take my word for it -- anyone can reach out to their staff and read the contract in detail (~30pgs). if you paid upfront in full, they didn't give refunds if you flunk out. Even if you flunk out after X times not passing an exam and deferring, the ISA contract states you'd owe full tuition after a certain time length in the program. Past the halfway point the contract states you'd owe them full tuition if you withdraw. You owe them an expensive prorated amount if you withdraw prior to halfway point as well. In both ISA or paid upfront full, if you're dismissed for something like accumulating 10 strikes (among other niche rules), you get either no refund or charged $31k. There's so many ways you do owe them, and yes -- even if you do flunk out (according to the contract, if past X time length in program). There may be some specific cases where they don't charge tuition if one fails out after the halfway point, but this definitely varied, wasn't always the case, and largely depended on who the student/customer was.
Lmao
I am so glad I found your videos!! I am currently in a career change from nursing and definitely want to go into software development but I have no idea where to begin and have been so lost. All these academies came up for me and was even considering it, thankfully I stumbled upon your videos and has saved me big time! Currently have applied to two apprenticeships so lets see how it goes. *Fingers Crossed*
Welcome to the channel! Good luck.
Hey Natalie, I'm coming from a nursing background too, and pursuing software development. I would love to connect and share insights!
IMO I think the other direction would be better. Nursing > Software Engineer.
@John Smith nursing is very hard it's actually the hardest degree to obtain in the us
@@wrfx0rzyes, that would be awesome. Send me a message when you get the chance so we can connect
Dons face is priceless when the guy said if you get 10 strikes you’re kicked out and still owe tuition. Because my face did the same expression😂
I really enjoyed your review. I am going through the APP Academy enrollment process. I hope i learn alot but i also hope its not going to so stressful or crazy as mentioned in the video. Thank you for the video
I may have been in John's cohort at one point (I got deferred a few times). I made it through the entire course, though I didn't graduate and go through their job-search. I can confirm what he said about the 24 week program. Halfway through the course, I was at like 8-9 strikes so I personally just wrote up a bash/python script to automate the stupid check-in thing. I specifically remember the "cheating scandal" John was referring to. I found the Instructors to be competent, though TA's were hit and miss.
did you get a job yet and did you end up paying anything ?
27:22 I've never seen Don take such a serious stand / dang! But super necessary. I've heard a lot of stories.
As someone who just finished mod 5 of aA, I wouldn't discourage people who want to get into aA tbh. Its hard and you have to work hard thats right, but sometimes there are some easy weeks which we call break weeks, there are hell weeks and you need to be prepared for that. I would say just practice Javascript before joining aA, 2-3 weeks of javascript will get you ready for the first mod. After that just work as much as you can and you will get to where you wanna be in couple months. Mod1 is the hardest for most folks because they dont know anything about code coming into the course, mod 2 is the second hardest mod because it's about Data Structures and Algorithms, especially week 6 is one of those hell weeks I told u about. After that mod 3 is pretty chill one of the easiest one, mod 4 is about backend its kind of chill if you study hard, mod 5 is pretty hard, its about react and redux. They try to teach you react and redux in 1.5 weeks which is crazy lol. After that mod 6, from what I ve heard its also hard, and so is mod 7.
as someone who finished aA I respectfully disagree with parts of the above and recommend watching this video in full
@@na-ch8es may I ask why you didn't like aA?
@@yavuz9038 discussed in other comments on this video
@@na-ch8es hey I plan on starting app academy in around 2 months and I’m gonna start studying. What should I focus on to make the boot camp easier?
Curious what your thoughts are on the fact that aA has been fined two times at least by Bureau for Private Postsecondary Education, in one case for 50,000. Citation 1516032 in '15 for $50,000 & citation 1920276 in '20 for $7,000 at least. They've also had four lawsuits between students/customers and themselves in 2018 (x2), 2019 (x1), and 2020 (x1) at least (Hash Map Laps Inc aka App Academy)
Maybe this is addressed later in the podcast, I'm only 26 minutes in, but I wonder if the reason why app academy has such a heavy pressure load and so much stress and is so unforgiving is to artificially keep their numbers up. If you start kicking people out for such minor offenses, especially if you get to keep the money, those folks don't get counted in your placement statistics.
No way is it necessary to have that strict in environment just to become a web dev.
the placement stats aren't the only things being artificially kept up
@@na-ch8es Can you elaborate?
idk, but for me, strictness is the only way i can learn and make something of myself. i dropped out of college because no one holds you accountable. app academy's analness and ruthlessness was tough, but absolutely necessary for an ADHD-type low motivation person like me
@@na-ch8es You keep leaving these subliminal comments but won't explain what you are talking about. If you are trying to warn people then please explain otherwise it just seems like you are fear-mongering for attention.
@@user-ho1oe8zo7o it's not for attention. If it were wouldn't I use a real name, or any name? Or a profile picture and a channel with videos, maybe try to use this moment to get followers or something? And reply to everyone who asks me something on here, or most people in general on this video? While it's true I haven't explained everywhere on this video, in some thread areas I've actually explained what I'm talking about in great detail. Also, some replies were later deleted or never made public for unknown reasons.
Hard work pays off. And it shows with these guys right here that it awesome!
My high blood pressure just listening to the stressors in app academy 📈
You pay to be weeded out of or kept in a batch of coders sold to a corporation. The boot camp is a broker getting paid every which way.
Starting on Monday June 12, 2023! Ask me anything I'll try to keep this comment string updated!
How’s app academy going?
Just a few minutes into this video and I’m already flabbergasted. You cannot walk into a tech company and land a software engineering roll with no experience. MOST first time developers will end up in a support roll for at least a year. It’s a great way to build a foundation for the future.
Hey, I remember requesting this about a month ago, thanks for doing a follow up
No problem!
Thank you so much for this video it has helped me tremendously. I am currently trying to pass the Technical Challenges.
I just got off the phone with App Academy and they said they do not kick people out if they fail a test or course
the check ins are brutal
don't worry, depending on how elite or diverse your background is, they'll excuse these for you and go easier on you. Depended on the background of a student, not all are treated equally. Same case for some who withdrew or failed out of the program near the end, tuition waived (but not waived for all) yet they were still encouraged to list a/A brand on their LinkedIn and other job searching materials.
Failing the test can get you kicked out? Welp, I'm out. Just going to go read up on JavaScript on my own for starters.
im thinking the same thing, im glad this video came out recently
What does "I was completely wrong about App Academy" refer to? I have watched part of the previous podcast and most of this one and I don't get it.
I’m an AppAc grad. I don’t think many people from my cohort that were placed with a partner company or were hired by the school to inflate numbers.
All the people I studied with went to work for start ups and bigger companies like AirBnB, Amazon, and Roblox.
The rant about the strikes and stress thing is kind of overblown. It’s not really that bad. Dude just sounds kind of fragile🤷♀️
A key part of the number inflation can be from accepting a lot of students/customers upfront and designing the program in such a way that the bulk of the students defer, withdraw, fail out, or pause the program during it. The video mentioned how any bootcamp could take the top 20-30% of a cohort and claim success, when those top students likely would've been fine in most bootcamp programs or maybe self-teaching. Idk if the point behind potential number inflation was from partnered companies or the school hiring them. In my experience most got their jobs not due to a/A's alumni network or partnered companies but from outside of that including companies like you've mentioned. However, a lot of other bootcamp cohorts' or even community college top students also work at these companies or startups -- that part isn't unique to a/A. Also, a sizable portion of a/A's numbers for alumni comes from non-software engineering jobs and are instead things like customer to sales tech jobs.
How much you making now?
@@can1beatme started at 90k then jumped to 120.
Goal is to get good enough to command 150 by the end of this year, preferably before June.
Gonna ask for a raise, though, instead of jumping around. I really like the current project I’m working on.
@@na-ch8es The employment statistic comes from time to placement after graduation.
Most people get hired after about 5-7 months after completing the bootcamp.
A good number, but not the bulk, get jobs sooner and a little after that.
I don’t know anyone from my cohort that took a more than that to get a job.
And even if the number is “inflated” because people drop out, most people don’t like to work hard in general.
That a lot of people can’t run a marathon is not a reason to criticize a marathon.
Some people can’t hack it. Some people just want to win medals but don’t want to train.
"Is that cheating?"1:08:01 + other sources:
*Lawsuits via company that owns then, Hash Map Labs Inc (not found via App Academy)
*Reddit posts & comments
*Yelp not recommended mixed reviews (400+ not shown in default shown reviews)
*Better Business Bureau rating and any publicly seen complaints
*BPPE fines/citations (a/A has 2x, one for $50k) and why occurred, one audit found data missing like CIRR
*No CIRR
*TeamBlind reviews (former students turned staff)
*Glassdoor reviews (high & low rated ones, students turned staff)
*InHerSight (former students turned staff)
*Other RUclips videos & comments
*a/A influenced reviews on websites like Yelp (hoodies/jackets for them, referral links, contacting ppl who left bad reviews to get them to change it into good reviews on them, etc.)
*Some online review websites have more mixed ones than others
*Consider date & type of program for any review on them, very diff. by year, type, economy
*Some websites automatically sort displayed reviews, can take time to see low-rated reviews on them throughout years
I love your podcast! So helpful!
Nice interview, I guess In the end it’s called a bootcamp for a reason I kinda like the strictness, it brings people together and creates lasting relationships.
They call that a trauma bond
@@na-ch8es HAHAHAHAHAHAHA hey... that can be good sometimes
Idk if justifying/normalizing an expensive product that causes customers to have panic attacks or cry (among other things), as mentioned in the video and in another comment on this vid, is the way to go. There are more affordable quality alternatives that don't. There were people in my cohort who bought a dog or were seeing a doctor during it just to help them cope with the program. Another alumnus actually told me they started seeing a medical professional post-program prior to starting a job so I truly hope people understand the gravity of how bad it can be in a/A (particularly for their full-time longer program that can go on for 9 months).
Those who found it not as bad, but still stressful at times, typically already had either a computer science/engineering/STEM college degree, a halfway complete engineering/computer science degree, did the free version App Academy Open prior to the paid bootcamp version, did a different bootcamp prior, or had some sort of tutor or engineering partner or friend for extra assistance in times of need. Doable if from background of 0, but just know that you'll likely be on the side of finding it very hard at times & proceed with extreme caution then due to their cost pricing.
@@na-ch8es I really agree, still, I think such programs are very effective in stuffing knowledge into people in a quick amount of time (compare to uni, which takes at least 3 years to prepare someone for the workforce)
It might not be that these bootcamp are immoral or inhumane, u just got to know how well you’re able to take pressure and give it a try.
@@okayokay433 I see where you are coming from, but are you speaking as a recent former student of an a/A program or as a speculator with an outside perspective? In theory yes, what you're saying would be nice. Yet this isn't quick. A/A has a year long program and a 6-month that can go 9-month and some end up stuck in that contract for longer if a life event occurs. At the 9-month or year mark, one could've been halfway through a 2-year college degree with legit credentials (also cheaper). Some a/A grads don't end up in SWE/SDE but instead in sales, customer service, and other non-engineering tech jobs so their expensive prep doesn't mean entry into the SWE/SDE workforce. There are self-taught folks who make it through in less than three years independent of bootcamps.
Other non-a/A bootcamps don't operate like this (not as much "pressure") with some being just as effective if not more than theirs. There also isn't an option to just give a/A a try aside from a few weeks that have a prorated cost of thousands at exit. Typically you either do it or you don't, unless you have $4k or so lying around, resign from your job, and put all life on hold for a month just to try.
That basically means their stats are skewed... I agree that sounds kind of gross. I just hope they are upfront about their methods. I'm going to jump on a call with one the reps, and will ask questions about the stress level. Thanks for the heads up.
I look at it this way. It’s free until you get hired. So what’s the issue here. If you get kicked out, you keep whatever you learnt plus you don’t pay…so I really don’t see a problem here. Except you pay even if you get kicked out. I doubt you do because you don’t make it to job placement period, hence you don’t get the job that affords you the resources to pay. Please correct me if I’m wrong about any part of my statement here. Nice informative video though.
In my time there, when people failed 3 tests and demonstrated they really tried, they were kicked out but didn’t have to pay anything. It was just a scare tactic. You just don’t wanna miss classes and then fail out..
Unfortunately, this isn't true. Not free until hired and not just scare tactics. If you withdraw due to it not being the right program for you, needing to get a job, family hardships, you not being "good" at programming, or etc. you're billed an expensive prorated daily amount that is about ~$1,000/week. If you've been reported on for X reason like inappropriate behavior to cheating, you get kicked out and billed full tuition. There was one case where someone "took inspiration" from a part of a diff. cohort group project's backend, used it in their solo project, and was removed while billed $31k. Even if you withdraw after the halfway point, it switches from prorated to full amount despite you not having finished the entire program. In my cohort there was someone who withdrew to accept a QA job right after the halfway point passed and aA billed him $31,000 since the job offer was just above the $50k mark. You also get billed full tuition and kicked out if you get 10 strikes, which has happened to people (this video even mentioned one case of it).
And it doesn't end once you graduate from the program either. Once you pass all exams and projects, you enter the job seeking phase. 10 strikes risk continues and X amount of job applications per week or else. A career coach didn't like how a graduate replied to a potential employer. So he decided to kick that graduated student out and bill them $31,000 full tuition. Granted, said alumnus was supposedly rude to a potential employer's offer being below market pay, but not sure that warranted them being dismissed after they'd successfully made it through and billed full price despite no job.
@@na-ch8es Cheating and plagiarism (copy of someone else’s code), once confirmed, those people definitely deserves to get kicked out.
If you decide to quit the program for whatever reason or finding a job halfway, it’s normal to still pay whatever tuitions have been accrued, no?
The prorated amount and other legal consequences are mentioned in the ISA, which students have to read and sign, so there should be no surprise there..
@@hyrobreath95 I was answering Frankie's question, which included "If you get kicked out, you keep whatever you learnt plus you don’t pay…so I really don’t see a problem here. Except you pay even if you get kicked out. I doubt you do because you don’t make it to job placement period..." He ended his question with "Please correct me if I’m wrong about any part of my statement here" which is what I did, since your first reply didn't explain what I did. To explain further, the person in question for my first comment may not have cheated. It was contested. They wrote the front and middle ends custom on their own for a solo project. The justification heard about for what happened to him was that parts of their backend may have been transferred over from a group project's. Again, not the entire backend. So what % of this solo project was really copied? Approx 70% or so assumed custom if not more. I'm not advocating for people to do what this guy did or saying it's right, but they got absolutely no warning as a customer/student about to graduate. This was for their final graduation project. They'd already built one solo project completely custom nothing transferred into it. Same with two group projects. Passed all exams no cheating. Didn't have a lot of strikes, if any. They did this where they submitted one project with most of it custom after already submitting 3 custom original projects, 8-10+ exams, few strikes -- kicked out immediately and billed $31,000 with no warning. Who's to say that wasn't a misunderstanding, I have no idea but what it does show is that a/A is ruthless. Edit: said student had never deferred, too. Had passed everything up until the very end project and immediate dismissal with bill.
1:07:36 pause
Anyone who’s joined App academy, would you say the part time course is a lot more relaxed because there’s more time to learn the material?
Im also interested in this question as well
You guys definitely want to do some research before just so you have some knowledge and don’t struggle with the concepts as you go. They have curriculum open for everyone so you should check that. Also, I think they have a prep course that is paid and is about JavaScript but if you then join the main bootcamps is deducted.
What numbers are we talking about? A “6 figure job” in San Francisco is great if you’re living in your car or rv
Exactly. The "high" salaries they report are for SF and NYC areas, which have high state income tax in addition to high cost of living. Meanwhile some of the "lower" salaries transparently reported on CIRR in the past tended to be in states with no state income tax and lower costs of living. (CIRR reports entry level salaries while a/A marketing sometimes uses non-entry level salaries.) An example is $100k in SF area is ~$65k-$75k after state income tax & other taxes, rent (another ~$20k+) and everyday expenses will knock this way back too (not including the 15% or so monthly paid to a/A). They also only have offices in NYC or SF (highest salaries nationwide they get a % of) versus other tech hubs. Between their 2 full-time programs, they only have the 24-week program online outside of covid lockdown which is more expensive than the now in person 16-week.
@@albuquerquehotspot7835 then why is only the most expensive a/A program type (24week) online whereas the cheaper 16week one is in person, at only the highest paid tech hubs of NYC or SF versus other tech hubs throughout the country? Also 16week was online during covid lockdown so it could be a fully online program too post lockdown but isn't when I checked. Furthermore, if there was time to develop an entire new (more expensive) program that includes more industry-relevant tech like Python, then there must've been time to revamp the 16week (cheaper) curriculum from Ruby to Python or etc. This coupled w/ more online marketing for 24week vs 16week seems like nudges/incentivization to funnel ppl into the most expensive program. (Ya they sometimes advertise free curriculum but some students in paid program types were initially doing the free one then converted over.)
@@albuquerquehotspot7835 while it's great it worked out for you, you have bias in three ways. (1) Survivorship bias for being one of the few to graduate from an a/A cohort as we've heard in this video that only 30-40 ppl per cohort starting with over 100-130+ make it through. (2) We've also heard in the vid that not everyone of this 20-30% survivors are able to get a SWE job, or a tech job at all, and return to their former type wishing they'd never done a/A. (3) I saw an initial comment of yours on this vid where you mentioned being a former a/A coach, so former employee bias too. Not sure I'd call that landing a SWE job immediately since who knows how long you worked for a/A prior to getting this job.
That in general didn't answer my question. And just because you were able to land a SWE job after surviving a/A, working for them for X time, and then getting a SWE job doesn't mean you wouldn't have had this same success of eventually getting a SWE job had you done an alternative cheaper program or self-taught with 1-2 mentors or tutors for a few hrs/week if you get stuck (which is also cheaper). Not to mention that alternatives don't treat their students/customers this way as described in many troubling points of this vid.
isn't there a 3% acceptance rate that a/A claims in marketing, that it's one of the most selective programs? I'd think the "screening process" mentioned at 00:28:23 if done properly should be filtering out those that aren't passionate or "intelligent" enough as you say. How are people who aren't smart enough making it into such a selective bootcamp in the first place to cause only ~20-30% to successfully graduate then, with a 3% acceptance rate? If you disregarding these facts is not having bias, then idk what you call this. The vid also mentioned ppl being dismissed not related to academic reasons like strikes, someone making it through and not being able to get a tech-related job, and someone who didn’t make it through but got a SWE job despite this.
@@na-ch8es I don't understand why you are mad. Many people who fail to graduate drop out in the first month. Cause they fail the assessments. The first month's assessments are the easiest ones. If you can't pass them maybe bootcamp is not for u man. In my cohort we started with 130-140 ppl and after week2 we had like 40 people. I'm currently on week 17 and we still have around 40 ppl. If you ask me not all of us are super smart or super good at this. Many people struggle and have panic attacks but they never give up, they work so hard. If you can't do this maybe apply to another bootcamp but you will have to work so hard in those bootcamls as well.
Love your videos. I am currently active duty Air Force and plan to skill-bridge my last 6 months of my contract in the code platoon. Before I start my skill-bridge I will have my associates in computer science from weber state university. Skillbridge is a program that allows service member to still get paid and receive benefits from the military while serving an internship. Code platoon is a coding boot camp that qualifies as a skill-bridge program and is free of charge for skill-bridge applicants. My question is if you could possibly do a podcast with graduates from code platoon. I would love to see that video and thank you for all the entertaining content.
Glad to hear it. I just updated all of my video descriptions to include a form link for review requests. Go ahead and submit it there.
i was taking a look at it and now there including python in 24 week course
The caveat is that it’s right at the end of the 24-week program, only 1-2 or so weeks long (including a week project building). Most could self-teach Python in the same time period after knowing a different full stack decently well. Interesting that their newer, less refined/tested program featuring Python is actually mostly a JavaScript full stack for the majority of it, yet costs ~$7k-$10k more than the purely JavaScript older but likely higher quality one. Many staff in it also hadn't graduated from the 24week, instead 16week, so in the "Python" one about half the time or more you're taught by ppl who took the JavaScript 16week (maybe this'll change but it was often like the clueless leading the clueless)...and you don't start building a single portfolio project / web application until right at the halfway mark of the contract, so ISA terms means by the time you only have one group project done you now owe a/A $31k regardless of what happens.
I wanted to go but now I'm hesitant to go to this bootcamp. Like damn, 137 down to 35 students? Thats crazy
Clicking check in at start of class and after coming back from lunch should be enough.
Don't punish people if forgot to check-in.
Sounds like an interesting experience.
So basically don’t enroll into AA if you’re a parent to small children 😢
This was really good! Thanks
What do you think about a highschool graduate going to a boot camp instead of college for a dev job?
If you're 18 college is the move. Not just for learning but for the college experience and the people you meet. If you're upper 20s early 30s a bootcamp could be great
Hi I’m doing exactly that, I’ll be starting my bootcamp next week! I’d rather do a bootcamp than college because it takes less time and money 🤷♀️
Insightful thank you so much
I watched the entire video so i am so disappointed the way bootcamp treats his own students. Bootcamps should be a place where people should learn with passion not putting them a pressure. This is reason people are skeptical to apply for bootcamps. People will pay a tone of money then you got kicked out after failing 3 times exam. Bootcamps should change the teaching style in fact they bombard too much information in a short period of the time. That's not good for your brain. One day i was watching a video from Uncle Stef Mishook saying bootcamps teach their students like in military forces. Self taught + a mentor or 2 mentors you will make it. Thanks for the video sir Don.
Matsonia it’s called bootcamp for a reason. I say this respectfully. You might have paid but it’s still a bootcamp and they make you aware of their conventions.
@@dannybrown317 I say this respectfully, that not all coding bootcamps are like this in how they treat customers/students. Military bootcamps aren't 6-9 months long like the full-time 24-week one either. Not all prospective or current customers had awareness of specific conventions when joining given the rushed nature of it (their "admissions" sales specialists earn commission/bonus related to # students they get to enroll, check Glassdoor). 20-30+ page contract with vague, confusing language at parts. This video shows how some students didn't know some rules' details, or forgot them, and needed to recheck so idk if one can say they make everyone aware of all the conventions that they have.
Starting App Academy online bootcamp today. Will come back to this comment with honest updates on how I am doing and how I feel the course is going!
Please set a reminder on your phone now so you don't forget! I'd love to hear as I've always been into tech, I am savvy, I've not taught myself any coding languages, but REALLY want to learn and hear more feedback about App Acad.
Yes
How's it going so far 1 month in?
Probably has no time due to the intensity of the Bootcamp so hopefully we get more insights about it.
3 months in... how's it going?
I feel like the program is great after reviewing the syllabus and listening to this video but its very conflicting now that they've expanded upon the strike system. It really sounds like you have to take a complete gamble on it: if you make it through without getting kicked out then you come out with a decent experience and good amount of knowledge and resources but on the other hand if you do get kicked out, you're now losing upwards of what, $20,000 because of a flawed administrative system they have?
School seems great and was my first choice up until this video, now it's deterred me quite a bit, especially being someone with no prior coding experience.
Syllabuses are also for-profit education companies' marketing materials, in a way. Doesn't always reflect the actual quality or concepts taught.
@@na-ch8es Correct; and while that's a great point- it wasn't my main focus for that comment. More so that the program seems great(at least for me) but the strike system has really deterred me from the program. That mostly is not on the doubts that I would fail but just that they even have the system, and that they collect the tuition if you fail, for whatever reason.
@@LetsGetExponential That makes sense. What were the other reasons they used to be your top choice and were great for you compared to alternatives, until you learned about the strike system?
This bootcamp is begging for a lawsuit
Sounds like an alright bootcamp, but giving people strike for every offense and kicking people out before they can complete the course then requiring the students who got kicked out to pay tuition in full , eventhough they didn't get to attend the rest of the class is shady practice and doesn't sit well with me.
If you kick people out of the program before course completion, the student should not be obligated to pay rest of balance.
Once you get kicked out, all charges should cease and desist.
Cannot continue collecting payment if student is no longer attending the class.
That's highway robbery and bad practice.
I don't get it . why aren't they just doing app academy open.. it's free... and you can just Google and RUclips if you are stuck
27:25 - Don snaps lololol
I been looking for bootcamp for the past few days and was gonna apply App Academy because of their organized schedule and plan. I think this video turn me down unfortunately. I'm a graduated college student with minimum knowledge on Coding ( I did one course about SQL and I guess that was it). I love to get into becoming a full-stack developer. Does anyone have suggestions of where I should go? deeply appreciate your comment ; )
Alright so I’m in week 6 now. It is hard. Truly stressful, but the strikes are easy. Like… you have to be really clueless to get 10 strikes and get kicked out
Caution with the strikes since it depends on who your mod lead and TAs are (they’re the ones enforcing the rules or carrying out what leadership decides). Some are more strict than others so luck of the draw for who your cohort has. Some cohorts have had people kicked out due to strikes or close calls (9/10 at end) because of strictness. But maybe they’ve also relaxed it after this video came out.
@@LeonC0704 Hi Leon! I would love to hear a little more about your current experience with App Academy since you’re currently going through it. Are you doing in person or online? Would you recommend the 24 week program for someone without any coding experience/background? :)
HAHAHAHAAHAHAH I'm starting on the 28th and now I have anxiety hahahahahaha. Man... this put the fear of God in me. I'm doing the 16week in person program
16 week in person? Sheesh man, you will have no life
@@yavuz9038 I know. I was thinking “it cannot be THAT bad” and then I watched this about people breaking and having panic attacks hahahahahahahaha
@@LeonC0704 it's really true tho, im currently on week 17 of the full stack online program and it takes everything. They say 10 hours day, but usually its much more than that, and this is online program. In person its much harder but you prob get more help as well. Just ask as many questions as you can, work hard you can get through this
@@yavuz9038 Why do you say that their in person cohort is more challenging?
@@AllThisPower because it's more strict. You have to leave the comfort of your house, and you ll have to spend time traveling that ll take out time from your study time. Also in the in person program you have to be in the class all the time, whereas in the online program you can just turn off your camera for couple mins and do something else, don't get em wrong if your camera is turned off, you might get a strike but its still less strict.Also 16 week is really not enough for someone who doesn't know how to code to become a software engineer. So you will have to do some kind of prepwor for a month or two. The good thing about it tho less people go 16 week program so the instructors will be all yours, you will get to ask whatever questions you have. My friend said they started with 12 ppl and only 7 graduated from the in person 16 week. On the other hand my cohort (24 week online) started with more than 130 and right now on week 19 we only have about 37. My advise would be just try it out if you want, do the prep work and study really hard. If you can make it through the first two months then you have 90% of the chance of graduating, if you can graduate you ll have 90% of chance to find a job.
could you do a coding bootcamp review with 100devs?
I just updated all of my video descriptions to include a form link for review requests. Go ahead and submit it there.
The crux of these boot camps is that they make you work. I don’t think it’s worth $30k.
Coding temple is worst experience that i had
I am Glad I didn't take the recruiter Call
App Academy sounds TERRIFYING
Yeah, something I wish I'd personally known is that their parent company Hash Map Labs Inc has had four recent lawsuits at least between students/customers and themselves/App Academy, but it isn't as visible when you search unless you specifically look up their parent company. Filing dates in 2018 (x2), 2019 (x1), and 2020 (x1) at least. In general, anyone also waives away their rights to a jury trial when signing their contracts to become a student/customer.
@@na-ch8es well dang! That's insane. It's really tough finding a good boot camp
This is off putting if u lose your money because u learn slower.
It gets worse - by the time one realizes it’s not for them or it seems off from their perspective, the prorated amount of nearly $300/day meant ppl typically paid $1k-$4k or so to get out “early” during the first month. Curriculum takes a nosedive after month 1 too. (If you inquire about withdrawing, they try to talk to you about why and indirectly persuade you to stay in until contract point of full tuition owed, then they don't care whether you stay or withdraw. They also take note of which students ask early about the withdrawal process, or almost do it, and monitor you behind the scenes until a lead staff member decides it's fine. If you do start the withdrawal process earlier on, they sometimes try to persuade/offer switching to the alternative program instead like going from the 24-week to 16-week.)
By contract terms, they make more guaranteed $ if one is kicked out/dismissed from their rules or withdraws after the halfway point (full tuition owed vs % of monthly income if successfully graduated & eventually hired). You’ve contractually agreed to be a paying customer, they don’t have to treat you well or provide quality. Or if you paid upfront, you were also out of luck since you already paid in full regardless of if dismissed or failed out, quality, treatment, or job outcome (no refunds). Also, their admissions (sales) specialists earn commission/bonus related to # students they get to enroll (check Glassdoor) so take time to read and understand literally every line of a long 20-30+ page contract. You don't start building a single portfolio project web application until the halfway point of the contract as well. So by the time you finally build one web project (group project), you now owe a/A $31k no matter what happens via ISA contract.
Military style coding bootcamp lol.
Can you review Momentum please. Thanks
There's a form link in this video's description where you can request a review.
@@DonTheDeveloper done sir bro. Thanks again! Really appreciate it.
Can you review devslopes
There's a form link in this video's description where you can request a review.
Are these qualms not prevalent in all intensive bootcamps available?
20:42
I like I got a like when I just put the time for a placeholder to watch later. Lol
You are very judgemental of their style. If it works it works.
...except, it doesn't sometimes. Those that it did for either typically worked for a/A for a few months to over a year, and/or had a college degree (tended to be the STEM type or other in-demand majors from good colleges) with decent work experience prior to doing a/A. Up to half of their partnership network jobs weekly announced are not SWE/SDE ones and are instead platform support, support engineer, QA, IT, technical consultant/associate, tech support, implementation specialist, and so on. A portion of alumni end up returning to their previous industry professions. In both cases of either non-SWE/SDE tech jobs (sales & customer-facing) or returning to your former one after grad, this still adds to their placement of SWE/SDE coding bootcamp success rates. This video even mentioned a student/customer being kicked out for non-academic reasons yet became a SWE after despite that, whereas others who did graduate ended up in jobs like technical writing or returned to their previous profession. Idk if I'd call their style working then. And this video isn't just highlighting outlier cases, this is representative of the average cohort outcome and experience (at least from the past two years) speaking as someone who recently graduated and knows ppl in several recent cohorts.
@@na-ch8es did you go to a/A?