%100 , spot on, golf is no defferint then shooting pool, ping pong or throwing darts you must use eye hand coordanation along with tough and feel , the only thing differant is in golf you are swinging a club ........................................................................................................
You are a 1000 percent correct. Ernest Jones and a few other of that era knew this... Nowadays Golf is stuck in a crazy paradigm... Be great one day when common hack golfers who take these mental blinkers off start to become scratch golfers!! That's my goal anyway.. I only started playing 2 months ago and I have come to the exact same conclusion after researching it like crazy. I now just focus on clubhead and how I feel hitting the ball rather than trying to make the 'perfect swing'
i played a lot of hockey in the past and we learned how to shoot a puck by watching the older kids and soon after we had it. not a lot of thought but mostly visual, and feel and result.
I agree! I used to believe in the biomechanical theory of golf, but I'm finding myself being wildly inaccurate with heel and toe strikes. When I focus on where I want to hit the ball, more often than not, it works.
I think it's 75% hand/eye coordination and 25% mechanics if you truly want to maximize your body's power when hitting the golf ball. I'll use a baseball analogy...if you put Joey Votto at the plate and have him hit with his feet together, he may still hit the ball....but probably not as hard as he can hit it with his current stance. Hand/eye coordination puts the club on the ball......technique determines how far the ball goes...... I think you're 100% correct on your line of thinking......Sergio, Fowler, B Watson, Furyk, etc......Leadbetter isn't teaching those swings.....but they obviously have great hand/eye coordination and have found swings that coordinate with their body types to hit the ball straight and far.
This same thought occurred to me about 15 years ago after watching a golf trick shot artist. There was nothing traditional about any of the shots he hit, and all seemed to involve very solid contact. He obviously had very good hand-eye coordination. He said when he was a kid he used to hit bb's with a broomstick. I do believe some have better coordination than others, but I agree in principle with your theory.
Agree 100 percent. Great story about Hogan proving your point. What specialized training do good carpenters need to hammer a straight nail down into wood? None. I am certain they quickly develop good hand/eye coordination. If they couldn’t they would have been better off being a college professor. My point is the hammer and the golf club are the exact same tool. Only differences is one is longer then the other. One we strike with one hand, the other two hands. And finally one we strike downward and the other we strike sideway. The style of our swing is our own; the hand/eye coordination is a gift from our creator. Cheers
I agree with what your approach and thought process. At the same time you are using the term "muscle memory" too literally. Of course muscles can't store memories. All procedural memories and motor skills are dependent on the brain and sensory organs. Hogan's muscle memory still came into play because his brain could still tell his muscles what to do to swing the club fast and fluid. But with his eye not working properly his "muscle memory" wasn't quite valid any longer. The memory was learned with two good eyes giving his brain necessary information. So he had to re-calibrate. Keep in mind, there are blind golfers. They have to be lined up to the ball, etc. But they are still able to hit the ball without using their eyes at all. They learned the motor skill without using their eyes so their brain doesn't rely on their eyes to provide feedback when performing the task. I get it that you likely know this and are just trying to make a point, but others may not.
This is great. So good to see somebody sit outside the 'acknowledged expert' side of the game and bring some common sense into it. I'm only onto video #2 but I'm enjoying your maverick approach and delivery style. The Happy Gilmore swing is something I've tried and it usually results in good shots. I'm intrigued by your Hogan story. Was there really time after his accident to reboot his swing so radically? How the heck did he get from near death to winner's circle with his legs in plaster and now, as you contend, his eyes completely out of whack? Following closely. This is something unique.
Excellent video about non-technical importance in golf; perhaps slightly unappreciated by anyone who hasn't put in the time/sweat/tears to know both sides of the coin though. I really enjoyed this story, it's one I'd never heard.
This is what i tell people all the time. People try an play golf like there is some secret. Most people cant trow catch kick or hit any type of ball well and expect to be good in gold.😂😂😂
Any sport has some aspect of hand eye coordination. People set-up to a ball and position a ball a certain way because it gives them the best chance of consistency. If it were truly just hand eye, a blind person could never hit a golf ball.
In agreement again. Now to minimise wear and tear on the body, your thoughts coupled with the Brian Sparks swing philosophy is a sure winner. Check out Brian Sparks at - positiveimpactgolf. com
I agree, but would suggest watching Julian Mellor, a pupil of Brian’s method. Coupled with this method of striking the ball would certainly improve your game. The method displayed here doesn’t convince me that it will result in consistently seeing maximum distance and accuracy for YOUR ability. Looks easy but remember, this instructor his hundreds if not thousands of balls to maintain this success. I am determined to give it a try.
im sure like me many golf viewers have hit the most horrific shot say driver out of bounds (despite theoretically doing all the bio mech stuff etc) and in an exasperated fury just put the next ball down and without thinking smacked it straight down the centre !
Great video and it's so obvious that your paradigm is correct. Why do you think other instructors are so obsessed with a system/positional golf/so called swing mechanics?
If you teach someone something complicated that doesn't work very well, clients will be coming back to you regularly for more input, and you will make more $$$! The PGA officially recognised that Ernest Jones and Manuel de la Torres were outstanding coaches. They taught a similar approach based on swinging freely through the ball with a focus on the clubhead and letting the mechanics take care of themselves. But the PGA said explicitly that they thought the simplicity of the method would reduce the income of their members, so wouldn't do anything to help promote it...
Interesting fact about Hogan that I never new, I agree with you if it had been the misnomer 'muscle memory' then sure he wouldn't have had a problem with his depth perception, he could have just closed his eyes and hit from memory!!!
+Barry Oakland I will say that I do occasionally hit balls with my eyes closed when I am practicing. There is no hand-eye coordination involved there for sure. When I hit them well with my eyes closed I am usually having a pretty good ball -striking day. I think to say that it is only hand-eye coordination and feel in swinging the club through the ball is not accurate. There is a good reason why a large percentage of the best players all get into very similar positions through impact -- because our brains are experts at figuring out the best way for our bodies to move for certain actions. Biomechanics is a large part of it.
+wantonjr1 I don't know if Sam ever said such a thing, if he did it was probably right after losing to Hogan. Fact is, we all say things at times we wish we hadn't. I'll try not to make a poor potshot and simply say this. Sam Snead routinely referred to Hogan as "The Boss!" I think that pretty much sums up Sam's respect for Hogan. Coming from Sam, high praise indeed... the Secret of secrets where one's best swing is concerned is to find a feel that consistently provides a smooth transition from backswing to forward swing. I feel the transition primarily through my left thumb. Mechanics do not create a swing. The swing creates mechanics. The swing is first and foremost a feel. The mechanics of the swing are not the boss, feel is.
Yes but sir I loves you but you yourself has to have a big part in the creation of a fellow pupil ..... even natural striking ability has to be molded by an external body of some description ♥️🙏🏻
Ron has it correct. Some guys have worked very hard on their golf swings but the results they get are not what they expected. Why? Well, maybe it's because they worked very hard. Every time I go to the range I see ten other guys out there and they bring their whole bag with them and then hit 95% of their bucket with the driver. They will be out there for 30 years and will never learn a thing. Next time, go out there with nothing but a wedge in your hand and hit nothing but a 60-70 yard pitch with it, over and over until you can hit that shot with an easy, nothing to it swing each and every time. A driver, with that same swing will go 230-300 yds. depending on the individual. It may take more than one session to get the feel of this, but get it into your heads that what makes a good golfer is great feel using nothing but hand-eye coordination. You will really have learned something. It is the only way. You have to do the "work".
well, actually i don't have to discuss these things with you. i always see it on the the golf course day after day that you are right. once i played with an olympic gold medalist winner in field hockey. his whole family was actually olympic winners in field hockey, but that's a different story. he played of a 6 hcp at that time, and after i've seen him hit the balls for a few holes, i asked how long he played. almost a year he said. wow i thought, that's amazing. his swing wasn't that "pretty" but so powerful and efficient i never saw this before (nor after that as well). and then we talked just enough, that i recognized him as this olympic winner. so, what's that story about!? people who are gifted, talented or trained for a long time in tennis, hockey, icehockey etc doing well hitting golfballs, even the swing is not that golfesque. they are just good with there hand-eye coordination. don't you think ;)!?
PatriK everybody can hammer nails. Then don’t do so well. If you can hit a ball 100 yards straight you can go round under 95. Anybody can learn that in a couple of months. The shit hits the fan when you want to hit 300 yards. Not many people can do that.
Ron, it is almost two years since you posted the video and I am wondering if time has change your mind on some of the things you have mentioned. The science of golf has given much insight into what the best players in the world actually do; and given all the insights into how we learn and the best methods to use have also been expanded greatly in the last 18 months; might they have caused you to think differently about learning the golf swing. And I wonder what you say to those who have no eye sight and play golf, at time better than those of us who can see?
I think it's both. A certain repeating action is required, and Hogan said when you are acting against every natural instinct, you will have a perfect swing. There's certainly a big element of developing routine, but I do not disagree with your basic point.
%100 , spot on, golf is no defferint then shooting pool, ping pong or throwing darts you must use eye hand coordanation along with tough and feel , the only thing differant is in golf you are swinging a club ........................................................................................................
You are a 1000 percent correct. Ernest Jones and a few other of that era knew this... Nowadays Golf is stuck in a crazy paradigm... Be great one day when common hack golfers who take these mental blinkers off start to become scratch golfers!! That's my goal anyway.. I only started playing 2 months ago and I have come to the exact same conclusion after researching it like crazy. I now just focus on clubhead and how I feel hitting the ball rather than trying to make the 'perfect swing'
i played a lot of hockey in the past and we learned how to shoot a puck by watching the older kids and soon after we had it. not a lot of thought but mostly visual, and feel and result.
I don't know if you are right, but you sure convinced me. Thank you.
I agree! I used to believe in the biomechanical theory of golf, but I'm finding myself being wildly inaccurate with heel and toe strikes. When I focus on where I want to hit the ball, more often than not, it works.
I think it's 75% hand/eye coordination and 25% mechanics if you truly want to maximize your body's power when hitting the golf ball. I'll use a baseball analogy...if you put Joey Votto at the plate and have him hit with his feet together, he may still hit the ball....but probably not as hard as he can hit it with his current stance.
Hand/eye coordination puts the club on the ball......technique determines how far the ball goes......
I think you're 100% correct on your line of thinking......Sergio, Fowler, B Watson, Furyk, etc......Leadbetter isn't teaching those swings.....but they obviously have great hand/eye coordination and have found swings that coordinate with their body types to hit the ball straight and far.
This same thought occurred to me about 15 years ago after watching a golf trick shot artist. There was nothing traditional about any of the shots he hit, and all seemed to involve very solid contact. He obviously had very good hand-eye coordination. He said when he was a kid he used to hit bb's with a broomstick. I do believe some have better coordination than others, but I agree in principle with your theory.
Agree 100 percent. Great story about Hogan proving your point.
What specialized training do good carpenters need to hammer a straight nail down into wood? None. I am certain they quickly develop good hand/eye coordination. If they couldn’t they would have been better off being a college professor.
My point is the hammer and the golf club are the exact same tool. Only differences is one is longer then the other. One we strike with one hand, the other two hands. And finally one we strike downward and the other we strike sideway. The style of our swing is our own; the hand/eye coordination is a gift from our creator. Cheers
I agree with what your approach and thought process. At the same time you are using the term "muscle memory" too literally. Of course muscles can't store memories. All procedural memories and motor skills are dependent on the brain and sensory organs.
Hogan's muscle memory still came into play because his brain could still tell his muscles what to do to swing the club fast and fluid. But with his eye not working properly his "muscle memory" wasn't quite valid any longer. The memory was learned with two good eyes giving his brain necessary information. So he had to re-calibrate.
Keep in mind, there are blind golfers. They have to be lined up to the ball, etc. But they are still able to hit the ball without using their eyes at all. They learned the motor skill without using their eyes so their brain doesn't rely on their eyes to provide feedback when performing the task.
I get it that you likely know this and are just trying to make a point, but others may not.
This is great. So good to see somebody sit outside the 'acknowledged expert' side of the game and bring some common sense into it. I'm only onto video #2 but I'm enjoying your maverick approach and delivery style. The Happy Gilmore swing is something I've tried and it usually results in good shots.
I'm intrigued by your Hogan story. Was there really time after his accident to reboot his swing so radically? How the heck did he get from near death to winner's circle with his legs in plaster and now, as you contend, his eyes completely out of whack?
Following closely. This is something unique.
Excellent video about non-technical importance in golf; perhaps slightly unappreciated by anyone who hasn't put in the time/sweat/tears to know both sides of the coin though.
I really enjoyed this story, it's one I'd never heard.
This is what i tell people all the time. People try an play golf like there is some secret. Most people cant trow catch kick or hit any type of ball well and expect to be good in gold.😂😂😂
Any sport has some aspect of hand eye coordination. People set-up to a ball and position a ball a certain way because it gives them the best chance of consistency. If it were truly just hand eye, a blind person could never hit a golf ball.
Great stuff you shared on Hogen..
Why was Moe Norman so successful in your opinion? He had a very "structured" set up that produced amazing golf shots.
Garth Downton because Moe Knew he had the "feeling of greatness" every morning. He also knew that 87% of the game is knowledge the rest is insight.
In agreement again. Now to minimise wear and tear on the body, your thoughts coupled with the Brian Sparks swing philosophy is a sure winner. Check out Brian Sparks at - positiveimpactgolf. com
I agree, but would suggest watching Julian Mellor, a pupil of Brian’s method. Coupled with this method of striking the ball would certainly improve your game. The method displayed here doesn’t convince me that it will result in consistently seeing maximum distance and accuracy for YOUR ability. Looks easy but remember, this instructor his hundreds if not thousands of balls to maintain this success. I am determined to give it a try.
im sure like me many golf viewers have hit the most horrific shot say driver out of bounds (despite theoretically doing all the bio mech stuff etc) and in an exasperated fury just put the next ball down and without thinking smacked it straight down the centre !
You can only play by "feel"when you understand what needs to be done if not you are hacking !!
Cho co you don’t have to understand to feel and learn. How did you learn to walk or throw?
Wish instructors would hit the ball off the ground that is where the game is played not off mats.
Agree 100%,I hit the ball off the mats twice as good as I do on the course,if u could take a mat on the course I would half my handicap no problem,
Great video and it's so obvious that your paradigm is correct. Why do you think other instructors are so obsessed with a system/positional golf/so called swing mechanics?
If you teach someone something complicated that doesn't work very well, clients will be coming back to you regularly for more input, and you will make more $$$!
The PGA officially recognised that Ernest Jones and Manuel de la Torres were outstanding coaches. They taught a similar approach based on swinging freely through the ball with a focus on the clubhead and letting the mechanics take care of themselves.
But the PGA said explicitly that they thought the simplicity of the method would reduce the income of their members, so wouldn't do anything to help promote it...
Interesting fact about Hogan that I never new, I agree with you if it had been the misnomer 'muscle memory' then sure he wouldn't have had a problem with his depth perception, he could have just closed his eyes and hit from memory!!!
+Barry Oakland I will say that I do occasionally hit balls with my eyes closed when I am practicing. There is no hand-eye coordination involved there for sure. When I hit them well with my eyes closed I am usually having a pretty good ball -striking day. I think to say that it is only hand-eye coordination and feel in swinging the club through the ball is not accurate. There is a good reason why a large percentage of the best players all get into very similar positions through impact -- because our brains are experts at figuring out the best way for our bodies to move for certain actions. Biomechanics is a large part of it.
Dead right. My astigmatism and eyeglasses requires me to aim an inch south of the ball to hit it in the centerof the clubface,
i am agree with you..
Sam Snead was once asked, what is Hogans secret? His answer was, there's no secret, he is just searching like the rest of us !
+wantonjr1 I don't know if Sam ever said such a thing, if he did it was probably right after losing to Hogan. Fact is, we all say things at times we wish we hadn't. I'll try not to make a poor potshot and simply say this. Sam Snead routinely referred to Hogan as "The Boss!" I think that pretty much sums up Sam's respect for Hogan. Coming from Sam, high praise indeed... the Secret of secrets where one's best swing is concerned is to find a feel that consistently provides a smooth transition from backswing to forward swing. I feel the transition primarily through my left thumb. Mechanics do not create a swing. The swing creates mechanics. The swing is first and foremost a feel. The mechanics of the swing are not the boss, feel is.
Yes but sir I loves you but you yourself has to have a big part in the creation of a fellow pupil ..... even natural striking ability has to be molded by an external body of some description ♥️🙏🏻
Ron has it correct. Some guys have worked very hard on their golf swings but the results they get are not what they expected. Why? Well, maybe it's because they worked very hard. Every time I go to the range I see ten other guys out there and they bring their whole bag with them and then hit 95% of their bucket with the driver. They will be out there for 30 years and will never learn a thing. Next time, go out there with nothing but a wedge in your hand and hit nothing but a 60-70 yard pitch with it, over and over until you can hit that shot with an easy, nothing to it swing each and every time. A driver, with that same swing will go 230-300 yds. depending on the individual. It may take more than one session to get the feel of this, but get it into your heads that what makes a good golfer is great feel using nothing but hand-eye coordination. You will really have learned something. It is the only way. You have to do the "work".
+James Ruhnke Sack the range and go to a GRASS practice ground. Hitting off mats with irons is worthless.
+Beta Vulgaris (A View From Europe) True. The mat gives a false impression.
well, actually i don't have to discuss these things with you.
i always see it on the the golf course day after day that you are right.
once i played with an olympic gold medalist winner in field hockey. his whole family was actually olympic winners in field hockey, but that's a different story.
he played of a 6 hcp at that time, and after i've seen him hit the balls for a few holes, i asked how long he played. almost a year he said. wow i thought, that's amazing. his swing wasn't that "pretty" but so powerful and efficient i never saw this before (nor after that as well). and then we talked just enough, that i recognized him as this olympic winner.
so, what's that story about!? people who are gifted, talented or trained for a long time in tennis, hockey, icehockey etc doing well hitting golfballs, even the swing is not that golfesque. they are just good with there hand-eye coordination. don't you think ;)!?
PatriK everybody can hammer nails. Then don’t do so well. If you can hit a ball 100 yards straight you can go round under 95. Anybody can learn that in a couple of months. The shit hits the fan when you want to hit 300 yards. Not many people can do that.
And then they all said..."Amen!"
I can hit the ball with my eyes shut blindfolded and I mean nail it 👍 you definitely don’t need to look at the ball to play golf use the force
Watch video of Sam Snead's swing. I prefer it to Hogan's
Ron, it is almost two years since you posted the video and I am wondering if time has change your mind on some of the things you have mentioned. The science of golf has given much insight into what the best players in the world actually do; and given all the insights into how we learn and the best methods to use have also been expanded greatly in the last 18 months; might they have caused you to think differently about learning the golf swing. And I wonder what you say to those who have no eye sight and play golf, at time better than those of us who can see?
I think it's both. A certain repeating action is required, and Hogan said when you are acting against every natural instinct, you will have a perfect swing. There's certainly a big element of developing routine, but I do not disagree with your basic point.