The false paradigm of golf swing bio mechanics
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 23 сен 2014
- A tiny percentage of the golfing population - the tour and club pros and high level amateurs - can strike the ball solidly and mostly straight with a remarkable degree of skill and consistency. In stark contrast, the vast majority* of golfers and would-be golfers flail away, with the satisfying 'click' of solid contact and precise, penetrating ball flight occurring only once or twice in a round golf, usually on the last hole to lure them back for more torture! [*According to National Golf Foundation statistics, the average golf score is currently 100 and has been for decades, with only 22 percent of golfers ever able to score below 90.]
Спорт
![[DOKKAN BATTLE] August Producer's Letter](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JUTYpaV_4Ic/mqdefault.jpg)
Ron:
Senior golfer here - I just had a great day on the course ... played well within my 18 hcp, scored 39 pts stableford and put on 3 pars in a row when our team needed them to close out the match. Tomorrow is tournament day, and I was video grazing to gain some tips and inspiration. Your talk was exactly what I hoped to find. Great to hear someone step back and ask some important questions about the methodologies we subscribe to. Well done! I look forward to hearing more of your ideas.
I used this mentality today and shot my best game ever, parred 4 more holes than I've ever parred before! All I thought about all day was just hitting the ball and not how far I wanted it to go, and almost every iron shot went dead straight and right on target, it was so gratifying! I couldn't have asked for a better game today. Thanks for the tips!!
(Please keep in mind that this is only my testimonial, and should not be taken as me trying to prove anything empirically. I've never taken a lesson or even met Ron Sisson)
I took 5 lessons from a pro who constantly was hammering me for being out of position. when I would go to the range, I was always thinking about my head, making sure my right foot was anchoring into the ground during my back swing, transferring my weight to my left foot, making sure my grip was correct (not too much knuckle and making sure my hands were "joined" as one), "getting my hands in front of me" etc. I've had more bad days than good days. I came very close to giving it up, as the for a few weeks I could not hit the broad side of a barn. Also, I was never able to hit the woods. I didn't even own a driver because there was no point in having a club in the bag that I couldn't hit. I tried taking slow mo video of my swing from multiple angles, looking to see where I was failing. My golf instructor (who I should mention is actually a really good guy, whose given me plenty of free advice and even went with me to pick out a used set of irons) would point to things in the videos and tell me (as always) "you lifted your head. you leaned to your left during the backswing. you didn't plant your right foot. you are too far/close from/to the ball. move the ball back/forward more".
Now, I am NOT saying my golf instructor was incorrect. But after a particularly frustrating day at the range, I was browsing youtube for swing tips, and came across this channel. I watched every video, even though some of them are repetitive, and Ron really doesn't delve into specifics. I was very excited, as I felt as if I had a revelation. The next day, I rushed to the range after work and bought a bucket. The only thought I allowed myself was "hit the fucking ball". I refused to think about body position, mechanics, or anything. I just focused on the club head and the path that it follows during the swing.
I generally start with the PW but decided to start with the 5I. The first swing that I took smacked the shit out of the ball. Keep in my, I always really sucked with the lower irons (well, I just sucked in general). It went straight. I just stood there, flabbergasted. I lined up another one, smack. after half the bucket of hitting the balls very straight and very far, I am sure that other hackers at the range were wondering why I was laughing between swings.
It has been about 2 weeks since I first watched the videos. I can honestly say, since I changed my approach to the swing, I hit the ball far better. I've bought a driver, and can generally hit it straight (though not very far). I can hit the woods far better. Irons I feel really good. I'm deadly with the PW. But most important, I feel relaxed. Even when I hit bad shots (and yes I still do of course), I don't feel like breaking the clubs anymore. It could be that my "bio-mechanics" are better, but I don't think about them anymore.
Incidentally, for those who don't already know, there's a helluva lot of Ernest Jones in this, particularly in the idea that the swinging motion makes the "parts" do the right things. Create the swinging motion, and most of what else needs to happen -- nearly all of it, actually -- will happen. Don't confuse what happens in a swing with something you need to try to _make_ happen.
This is fascinating and so true. But here's my opinion, I played many different sports growing up as I would almost bet you did too. Apart from the hand eye skill we acquired from this we were both at least above average in terms of athletic ability and together this allows us to hit happy Gilmore shots and ones like you just displayed. I honestly believe some people will have a very difficult time with this kind of thinking when it comes to the golf swing but I personally do truly see the genius in what you are showing here. Very interesting demonstration, thanks for sharing.
Your videos are the truth when it come to achieving amazing golf shots. My hands/ eye coordination occurs in between my ears where I see what I call my Big Blur Golf Swing . How i got there now matters little to me. Cheers
This is amazing. Good job. Totally makes sense. The amount of people I have played against that have 'ugly' swings and yet they are a lower handicapper than me is crazy....
Basically what ur saying is grip it and rip it.
Nice. The internet didn't exist when i "left" golf. Now i'm back for a dabble and this is interesting stuff. I used to practice hit my PW walking, on one leg, extremely open, one-handed, etc., and that club came back to me very quickly. Working on the rest of 'em.
Interesting outlook. Thx for sharing
I can agree with what you're saying. My dad had a very goofy golf swing, even when he addressed the ball, he did some crazy waggle thing before he took the club back. Nonetheless, he played great golf until the day he died at age 84. He had 2 hole-in-ones and a room full of trophies and did it all without ever taking a lesson. He told me, "don't do what I do because I'm not sure how I'm able to hit the ball so well, but I do everything wrong". However, he had fantastic hand eye coordination for sure.
My swing was far from perfect. Back swing my left foot stands up and my left arm is slightly bent. Down swing everything is out front. Im 5'7" and hit 280 to 300 off the tee for 10 years. Won may long drive holes in scrambles. Best round of 69 several times. Shot even par more than can remember. My golf buddy (dad) passed away several years ago and I just got out of it. Last year I started playing again but this time Im trying to perfect my swing. Totally changed everything about it. Trying to swing inside out, feet still, knees bent, etc, etc. I keep saying its gotta get worse before it gets better but my goal is to be perfect... Now Im hitting 270 at best because its all arms. Cant hit a green to save my life. Im shooting high 80 low 90s now. I have no other body parts contributing to my power. My head is full of garbage during my swing and Ive completely lost the enjoyment of when I used to just walk up to address and hit the SHIT out of the ball. Yes my feet looked like Im playing softball but when I shoot in the 70's who's gonna say anything? When at the range Im hitting flags. So I liked this video because I think hes spot on. It is about raw ability to hit a ball thats sitting still on the ground with a crooked stick. Thanks for the encouragement to just start hitting the ball again. Find what works. Unless youre 12 and your parents have endless money to perfect your technique then carry on.
completely agree that form follows function. Eye-hand coordination alone, without any thought of body movements, is the way that many great golfers learned to play. However, the regulation of this eye- hand coordination is useful to teach golfers who do not possess the natural coordination of the pros. An analogous example for this could be found in playing piano. This skill takes a lot of eye-hand coordination but with the right technique and regulation of hand movement, playing can become even easier. Its not a coincidence that in every golf pro's swing the movement of the club is very similar. Shallow angles of attack, delofting of the club at impact, and square club faces are all results of good eye-hand coordination that could be regulated and achieved through changes in body movements which, in themselves, are only achieved through eye-hand coordination.
Tell Ray Charles piano takes hand eye coordination.
The irony is the biomechanics stuff I've seen is intended to help the students find their most automatic and natural swing as opposed to forcing them to learn some theoretically perfect swing. One person might be most natural swinging like Jim Furyk and the next like Rickie Fowler. After that it becomes about improving skills.
I once heard Furyk say that before he saw his swing he thought it looked like Hogan!
And the kicker is his dad is a golf pro. His dad was a genius.
I love this video. You should have lunch with David Lee (Gravity Golf). You and he overlap quite a lot on a Venn diagram. Gravity Golf changed everything for me. After hovering at an 8-10 for decades, I'm sniffing scratch and WILL get there soon. Your video made a ton of sense. Everyone needs to stop listening to the "experts" on tv. Just swing the club with 2:1 timing WITHOUT tension in your arms. It feels alien at first, but with practice, it becomes very natural and begins to produce tour quality strikes. I love this game.
you are really good at imitating swings i must say though :D
This is great !
when i figured out the real swing by studying and watching the old greats, i was astounded. and you are absolutely correct of the minuscule amount of people in this world that actually understand what we know. thats why i feel mechanical golf swings falter under pressure whereas the natural motions prevail (snead, hogan, butch harmon's tiger, etc). i appreciate you for making this video - must say you have the best understanding of any other "teaching pro" i have ever seen. look at my channel if you would like to see my golf swing.
Analysis of unusual swings always amazes me. They are always after the fact or result!! Let the gifted players do as they do. The challenge to all teaching pros is to take the less gifted individual and develop swing that let's that player enjoy the game more. If u are one of the 1% who has great eye hand co-ordination great, but the comments from Hogan,Moe Norman,Trevino lean toward reducing or eliminating hand action . I am pretty sure that if they could have been free releasers of the club head and competed with that approach, they would have.
Garth Downton right on !
Love this guy. Reminds me of this joke. Golfer A says to Golfer B. "What do you normally shoot?" Golfer B: "About 98. But I've only been playing 30 years."
I forgot to mention, you have a really nice mechanically sound golf swing.
hi, i tend to agree with this, i played a lot of hockey in my younger days and when we were learning to shoot a puck i watched how the older kids did it and then in a short while figured it out. there was no body thoughts just see puck and hit. it was all instinctive i believe and done on skates, on ice and moviing or still. golf is over thunked, if thats a word
How about this for thought...what came first, the swing or the club? Obviously the club was designed around the first swingers and their natural swing (when there was no videos or swing tips)
You seem to hold Ben Hogan in very high esteem. I find it interesting that you discredit Hogan's best work "Ben Hogan's five lessons" when it comes to fundamentals. I think you misjudge other golf instruction in regard to their focus on mechanics. Without good mechanics the golfer will end up hurting themselves and quit the game in frustration. You reference Watson and Furyk but other than some unique aspects of their swing (not unlike almost every other pro golfer) they have most of the "text book" mechanics found in the golf swing. I think a great online pro that uses actual data to back up his theory is Mark Crossfield. Check him out.
+JP McLane I couldn't agree more, and Crossfield is awesome.
Reading some of the comments, obviously, this is beyond most of your understanding. Some get it. Steve Yellin's book, Fluid Motion Factor touches on a lot of what Ron talks about here. Paralysis by analysis applies to many golfers and Ron is addressing this. Being too self aware of what body is doing is no way to play golf or any other sport. Raymond Floyd has said if he had played with NO SWING thoughts, he would have won more. Leadbetter was nicknamed Lead Death due to his method teaching. He had one model swing and taught it to everyone. Many Stack and Tilt has faded from the PGA Tour for some of the same reasons. Hubert Green, Azinger, Floyd, Palmer (Arnold, not Ryan), Bubba Watson, Furyk and Fowler are all but a few that deviate from textbook mechanics and figured it out themselves, swing club, hit ball. Ron is a true visionary where others merely parrot same old nonsense that has hindered instruction since the beginning.
Instinct is a vital part of learning, but to write off mechanics is clapping with one hand.
It is the merger of instinct and mechanics which create power, accuracy, consistency, and grace of motion.
To exclude the intellectual part of the brain is to not utilize a powerful part of the person. We can learn how to use anatomy to more efficiently move the club. Learn the mechanics then learn to apply them instinctively.
I so wish someone had trained me in the mechanics I know now when young.
Interesting tell and show me more thanks
OBVIOUSLY it's all about hand eye coordination, and people have different swing because of their frame, flexibility, and ability. Those pretty swings on the tour just gives the average golfer an IDEA on how to get to a proper "impact position". If you look closely, Bubba and Jim have a similar "impact position" as Oosthuisen, Tiger, and other pros which is when the shaft is leaning more forward. Also if you notice how Jim is standing "square" to the ball, he hits it straight. If you notice how Bubba is standing more open, he hits a "cut" coming down from the outside with an open face. It's a good thing to learn from the pros because they'll show you how to get there. You can have whatever idiosyncrasies you have on you backswing and how you finish, but impact is the same.
+euph3mist I disagree, I think that there are several aspects of the backswing and downswing that all pros do the same when trying to hit a straight shot. For example, you'll notice that professional golfers have a very connected takeaway with the arms and body moving/rotating in unison. There is a lot to learn from the pros about the swing that you won't learn from swinging your own way using hand/eye coordination.
Valid points, I understand, we are not robots. We have to find a swing were everything matches to whatever style you're using.
I never said that one could not figure this thing out on one's own after a lot of practice. I simply said that this guy is not "teaching" anything. Thanks for finally agreeing with me. I do absolutely profess, however, that a good teacher can speed up the learning process considerably and I must believe that Mr. Hogan thought the same thing (or he would not have wasted time doing an instructional book--which, by the way, contains a couple of errors).
I feel that when you are out on the golf course too many of us think swing mechanics instead of just hitting that little white ball to a target. The basics are vital ...grip and set up including understanding alignment. Once you have those in place you then need to just go out and play golf with a quiet mind...Easier said than done but if you have a routine and stick to it and just think target you will play decent golf i guarantee it. I played with a guy the other day who had never broken 100. All I told him was just not to think of any mechanics just rhythm and sure enough he shot a half decent 93. He was awakened and could not wipe the smile off his face as he had always suffered from analysis by paralysis on the golf course...I rest my case:)
Brilliant stuff here, you need to have spent years listening to nonsense to truly get this!
So Ron would you suggest work on hand eye co-ordination first then much later add in bio-mechanics to fine tune?
Thanks for the excellent question.
The short answer to your question is, generally yes, hand eye coordination skill first, then if necessary, fixing any major or minor bio-mechanical technique flaw(s).
The slightly longer answer needs an explanation of the "if necessary" qualifier. If a so-called "swing flaw" is not affecting a golfer"s ability to make solid contact with reasonable directional control, there is no need to fix the swing flaw. Dustin Johnson, with his extremely bowed left wrist at the top of the backswing, is a perfect example: trying to "fix" his bowed left wrist would not make him any better and could possibly destroy this skill that he possesses.
On the other hand, if I have a brand-new beginner with an extremely bowed left wrist AND it is affecting his or her ability to make contact and/or control direction, I will start helping them to fix it right away. But if said golfer is making decent contact and the ball is going more or less where they intend it to, that "swing flaw" is just how his or her body feels comfortable moving in the act of striking the ball.
So there is no "one size fits all" solution here. Each golfer needs help individually based on what would actually work best for them.
@@LearnTheRealSwing Thanks Ron taking the time to reply. I've been playing on off for few years and tried many of the things that people suggest I fix the usual stuff you have said in your videos that people will say. I don't usually make good contact. However I went out yesterday and had no thoughts other than swing the club with a short backswing and started hitting balls couldn't believe it
im sure there are definitively some good points here, however, your demonstration of the "measure" on how little the head should move to result in the topping of the ball, assumes that head position to clubhead-ball contact is a linear system, even more extreme actually, that input=1*output.
Now this guy makes sense......so I can aim right and hit left....I can grip too hard......and I can lift my head......its all about hand/eye/ball coordination
Good stuff, pro. Form follows function.
so if golf is all about hand eye coordination how do you explain blind golfers?
elmadriz Blind golfers are a perfect example of the fact that hand eye coordination is 1% "eye" and 99% "hand." In any hand eye coordination action, the eyes simply provide the neuromotor control functions of the body accurate distance and depth perception information and, if necessary due to a moving object to be struck such as a baseball or a tennis ball, track the ball's movement. The eyes will perform their job instinctively and automatically so it is completely unnecessary to give even the slightest mental attention to "keeping your eye on the ball." 99% percent of accurate striking skill will depend on coordinated "hand" skill which operates on "feel," not sight. There are no blind tennis players -- they can't track a moving ball. Blind people can play golf though because the ball is stationary. With the help of an assistant who helps guide their positioning when they set up to the ball, blind golfers "feel" with their developed hand skill where the ground is and then with a good golf swing, they feel the arc/circle the club head makes as it swings around them and by 'feel,' pass it accurately through the ball. In golf, the eyes are pretty much irrelevant because the object to be struck is not moving.
Coordinated "hand" skill is something that only develops with time, experience, and lots of correct practice and no amount of "keeping your eye on the ball" will compensate. That's why parents with very young kids trying to hit a baseball in little league who yell out, "You took your eye off the ball, Johnny!" are quite incorrect and wasting their time. Little Johnny IS looking at the ball but it will be two or three years of "hand skill" development before he can make contact with a moving ball.
elmadriz
Or, simply the fact that as with most other things in their lives, blind golfers make compensations that amount to being exceptions to a rule. You can't disprove a theory of generalities and tendencies by pointing to one contrary example or to a very limited class of exceptions. Since there are always exceptions to any theory of the golf swing, you'd be setting up a nonsensical standard that would allow for zero agreement, zero knowledge, and zero advancement.
+stephen f what my comment proves is that hand eye coordination wile nice to have is not essential to being a good golfer. I am a golf instructor my self and have been one for over 16 years.
The assertion this gentleman makes are incorrect and are proven incorrect by mountains of data that the pga of america have accumulated over the years.
Blind people are not exceptions to the rule, they a prof that the rule is incorrect. Stating that hand eye coordination is 1% eye and 99% hand is ridiculous to the point of not warranting further response.
I have taut many people with terrible hand eye coordination to play excellent golf.
elmadriz >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *www.golf-swing-system.blogspot.de* >>>>>>> *Learn from the Gurus and apply it to yourself!*
Golf is sinking from all this positional golf coaching guff.
excellent stuff. give anyone, kid thru pensioner tennis racket, throw a ball to them.they just hit it.no thought of WRIST angle, etc.the brain takes over.Golfers suffer wit Paralysis by analysis.
Yes, but the point is that the public does not possess "elite" hand/eye coordination, so the best way for the public to learn golf is through biomechanics which will give them some chance at a repeatable golf swing.
Jim Furyk is #3 on the all time money list
You couldn’t flick the club face any more closed through the ball if you tried!
Horrendous - needs work is an understatement!
I think Ron is dead on here. The round that got me into golf was a rush twilight back nine after work with a buddy, using old hand me downs. This is BEFORE I was ever into golf mind you, before studying videos, pros mechanics etc etc., Anyway, I shot one over par, the only thing I focused on was making contact with the ball..lol. Granted, it was a fairly easy course from the whites...but still not too bad for the weekend warrior. I rushed out, bought new clubs, watched videos, studied mechanics, three years later and my low round was an 83....probably averaging around 90. Towards the end of last season I decided to stop messing around and the only thing I focused on was the clubhead.....and of course my game got a lot better. So from a very personal view point...of HONESTLY giving "the mechanics" side of golf a chance....a three year chance...mind you, it doesn't stand a chance against simply focusing on what to do with the clubhead. Not only that, there are actually noteworthy instructors that share Ron's theory, such as Earnest Jones, and Jim Flick....who coached Nicklaus. I have read articles of modern day golfers....such at Mcilroy. From Kostis:
"Another thing that Rory does incredibly well that most amateurs don't is control the clubhead. When he swings, you can clearly see how much AWARENESS he has of the clubhead and the clubface, and because of this, he's able to sling both of them past his body with natural speed and power. This is impossible to do if you grip the club so tightly that you can't feel the clubhead when you swing. In the photo at right, you can see how he has completely let the clubhead go -- there's absolutely no steering or holding on. That's a mistake that most amateurs make." My personal view is that this is THE FIRST thing that makes a talented golfer....as Ron says, the mechanics are just....there. ANY mechanic that they work on is subject to their awareness of the club head/club face.
From the Golden Bear himself, on his own website under "tip of the week": "Sometimes we become so immersed in mechanics that we forget about our main objective, to apply the club head to the back of the ball"
It's easy to solve the debate in this comment section by asking a few questions:
#1 Did other pros become great golfers by studying and repeating the mechanics of other great golfers? Highly unlikely, besides we all know that the greats in the past, with the same technology would be greats today. So it would have been a bit harder to study other swings with out the technology of today, so, how did they become so good? I mean I highly doubt that speith or mcilroy etc etc are studying someone elses mechanics to get better...not to say that they don't work on their OWN mechanics....again, subject to club head awareness.
#2 This question is kind of like the "what came first...the chicken or egg?" question. It doesn't seem logical that the body can strike the ball accurately with a club without the brain telling it to do so....while you're telling your brain to focus on keeping your left arm straight while you're swinging...are you able then to focus on applying the clubhead to the back of the ball at the same time? If so, are you consistent, also, what are the percentages? like 30% focus on left arm and 70% focus on using the club head? what if you are also working on spine tilt? Then is it 20% focus on that, 20% on left arm, and 60% on hitting the ball? Pheww...sounds like a lot of work. To me, the brain command of properly striking the ball comes first, followed by the mechanics that will result in that command. So what comes first, the brain command of focusing well enough on the clubhead and ball to deliver a pure and speedy strike....or the mechanics?
#3 I'm no scientist, but would bio mechanics even exist if the brain wasn't telling the body to perform an action or movement etc. etc.??..seriously wondering.
I kind of like a comment I read below to the effect of "these pro golfers are so good, they all must have degrees in bio mechanics".
I don't know how many Pro golfers have said they MIGHT have one swing thought during a round, or " I do better when I'm not thinking about what I'm doing"....or IF I have a swing thought that day it might be blah blah balh.....implying that many pros have ZERO swing thoughts most times.
An elite Russian hockey player became a scratch golfer in a year. He had athleticism and supervisor hand eye coordination.
@10:56 What was once "bad mechanics" is now called "his power move"
I couldn't make it past 7 minutes or so... does he ever get into what he suggests?
Guess they won't be doing much of this drill in California
this makes perfect sense....if your golf swing is already in your back bone
well, you just agreed with me...
you >> "the right combination has to happen"
me >> "your golf swing is already in your back bone"
tomato tomato...oh, wait....doesn't work when written :P
I love this!
there is a serious smug factor here and I think it is an appropriate response to all the garbage so many of us are told.
so....you have to thrust your swing (nice looking or not).....and everything else comes to place...
There's some truth to what he's saying. I watched kids practice running hits as he does and hit ball well past the outer boundary fence at a driving range. Always astounded me that 16 year old kids could do that. We're not all gifted and if you want average joes to golf and for me was not by choice, you have to have some basic fundamental starting point to teach and grasp the subject matter. The rest is practice, practice, and more practice. One thing that's important to understand is that your swing needs to feel natural and fluid and once you have that clearly understood then it makes the rest a bit easier to accept.
Co -ordination drills would quickly vastly improve most golfers that have been at lest OK in other ball sports and struggle with golf.In fact you wouldnt attempt other sports without them.
The cheapest and best drill is with feet close togethr swing back and forth 3/4 swings clipping the rubber teepeg on the rangemat until you hardly miss clipping it then try with a normal stance its harder to move and flow then with feet close together again back and forth clipping the peg with your eyes shut! eventually you will be able to impress your friends hitting a ball of apeg with yuor eyes shut!
You are learning to move flow swing and not worry about making contact with the ball and reminding allowing your brain/co-ordination to take care of collecting the ball
graham jones I don't believe this, I'm very co ordinated, played tennis since I was 6 played at a very high level, played football at a very high level, can do keepy upupies all day, can hit any ball in baseball, can keep the ball up on my golf club for ages as well, but I'm awful at golf
The reason is that in those sports your co-ordination works better naturally because youre moving and you are reacting to a moving ball
Eg a some footballers cant take a goal kick or dead ball kick but if they nudge it they can
the feet together drills leading to eyes shut helps you overcome this
graham jones well I've always taken pens and corners for my teams, and I weren't a bad snooker player also, my problem is that I can't rotate the club face open and closed when the ball is thei
You must have been able to rotate the tennis racket to hit topspin or slice, you must have been able to hit an almost dead ball when you served, maybe your brain is locked on the ball when you should be visualizing the flight to target or intermediary target, you sound good enough to hit a ball off a peg with your eyes shut, can you strike a t-ball?
graham jones sorry do you mean can I strike a tee'd up ball, because if you do mean that then yes I can very well, that's why I'm an ok player because I drive a ball very well, that's why I don't understand how people can't hit driver which is always my straightest club, I just can't hit irons, but yh when I played tennis I could do all them shots you describe
I think some of the critics here are misunderstanding the teacher. Maybe it would've been better to put quotation marks around "biomechanics" in the title. I think what the guy is referring to is something approximately like "the modern swing-yapper's false idea of biomechanics," not "true biomechanics." HIs point isn't that there aren't biomechanical realities to the swing, but that starting from the "make each part work right" end, rather than the "seek a single goal and let the mechanics develop to serve that goal" end, is counterproductive and wrong, and every person who's attained a high level in the game has done so by doing the latter (often in spite of the efforts of teachers, parents, the golfer himself, etc., to do the former).
Interesting ...I play tennis and golf and I often say the best players are like hawks swooping down on a trout...it's just part of their DNA...lol
Which I could do that.
This is me. The over 100 golfer.
No one starts to play golf with bio mechanic thoughts. They stand over the ball and try and hit the damn ball. I know friends of mine that are way more coordinated and athletic than this guy and yet they cant play golf. It is ONLY when they fail to achieve what looks like a simple task and fail that they resort to thinking about technique and mechanics. That is the truth of this game. Golf must be counter intuitive. If this guys stats are right then 'elite golfers' have figured out the 'trick' to it. When you look into the backgrounds of most tour pros, club pros, and decent low handicap amateurs then nearly all of them were related to someone who knew what was going on. You are about down to 1% of people that actually figured it out themselves. People cant play golf because they dont know what is required of them. If they knew what they were trying to do then the average abled body golfer would be in single figs. Unfortunately for teachers of golf by this guys logic and statistics the truth is that either a golf teacher doesnt know how to teach you or doesnt want to teach you. I would personally never ever pay anyone for golf lessons if they could not introduce me to ten (just ten people) that they met at 18hcp that were now low single figure guys. I dont buy the smug golf teacher attitude that you pay to answer questions that you know already. If golf lessons worked then club handicaps would fall and yet they dont. Halfwit golf teachers give band aid tips to people that have them playing just enough to 'enjoy' the game. Technology will replace golf teachers very soon. It will cut through the bullshit and tell the average person what they really need to know.
twelve minutes I'll never get back.
I appreciate the advice, but I get frustrated at teachers who love to hear themselves prattle on about their "unique insights" much more than getting to the point.
The head lifting section was absolute bullshit lmao
Interesting assessment of my argument. Care to elaborate as to why you feel my "head lifting" argument is "absolute bullsh!t?" What are your theories as to how any human can whirl a weird looking stick around their body in a 35 to 40 foot tilted plane circle, accelerate it forward into impact at a rate of speed up to five times faster than a top fuel dragster can accelerate, in a curving arc relative to the straight target target line, with the face of the club rotating a full 180 degrees from waist high before impact, to waist high after impact, happening faster than the blink of your eyes.... and strike the ball within the thickness of a nickel (1/16th of an inch) accurate of the center of the clubface, and no more than 3/4ths of a single degree open or closed at impact to hit the ball straight with minimal draw or fade curve? I'm always willing to learn more...
I tend to agree with this. I see lots of dissent (some below) along with preaching that you have to rely on the mechanics taught you by someone like Harmon, Foley, or Leadbetter. All I have to say is....
...and all the kings horses and all the kings men have not been able to put Tiger's swing back together again.....
Nobody wins tournaments playing "golf swing". And exactly who's bio-mechanical fundamentals should one choose? Classic, Reverse-C, O'Grady, Stack and Tilt, etc? Should you choose a flat swing like Hogan or vertical like Nicklaus? During the early years of Tom Watson's career the bio-mechanical model of choice was the "Reverse C". Everyone just had to do it because Nicklaus was doing it. Problem is that it was causing Watson inconsistent results with misses pushing the ball out to the right. He got rid of the reverse C in the early 90's and so profound was the improvement he said he "did not know what a golf swing was" prior to that change. You cannot just pick a bio-mechanical model like "reverse-C", "Stack and Tilt", "Classical (ala Bobby Jones)" and force your body into it. Nicklaus, Rodriquez, Trevino had the feel to make a swing change in the middle of a swing when needed. I'd like to see one of the pro's who are addicted to bio-mechanical conformism try that.
George Smith Exactly. I've always felt that these methods were the resulting "bio-mechanics" of people who had an ability to put club-head on ball, but then put the cart before the horse and claim it was their body positions that created their great swing and not their hand-eye coordination.
+George Smith if you listen to harmon - he has the same understanding as this guy right here. harmon is not like all the other coaches. hes a zen master, and so is this guy.
+George Smith Just because many professional golfers have somewhat unique swings does not mean that there are not basic fundamentals that will help the average golfer more than swinging comfortably and using hand eye coordination. If golf involved simple hand eye coordination, there would have been no need for people to break down and analyze the swing the way they have. Also, while you seem to be focusing on the differences, there is a lot that all pros do the same, for example, having a connected/ one-piece takeaway. If you feel comfortable hitting fade shots, then you should swing like Nicklaus, but there are definitely mechanics that can help golfers who would like to hit a straight shot.
Your idea helped me a lot even though you are a big show off. Thanks.
Does that mean they designed the A 10 wart hog by the seat of their pants.
Any decent golf instructor knows that the reason someone hits a thin shot isn't because they raised their head an inch. This is a ridiculous assumption. He is giving the majority of Canadian golf instructors a bad name. What I think is the primary goal of golf instructors in regard to biomechanics is to allow the body to swing freely through the ball generating good power and consistency. Obviously eye hand coronation plays a role in this. Every pro or good golfer has good biomechanics that allow them to swing freely and powerfully. If you don't have this it is impossible to hit good shots. I would like to see Ron's students hit something other than a 9 iron (especially a driver) and hit it effectively without some instruction in regard to biomechanics.
tallent tallent tallent +mechaics
Every decent teacher knows that a fairly neutral swing gives you a decent chance it hitting a good shot. Decent biomechanics give an averagely co-ordinated person a decent chance. Bubba and Jim and freaks-outliers-and probably some of the most co-ordinated and spacially aware individuals on the planet. Don't look at the exceptions, look at the rules, and most pros are biomechanically close to eachother.
Of course what you are describing is the end of golf coaching as it has established itself - and nobody in the business of teaching much wants to do that. I had a huge book on putting that had 400 pages. My young son wrote in the cover - if the ball goes left aim it further right if it doesn't get to the hole hit it harder - what more do you need. Of course that approach isn't going to make you the sort of wage top golf coaches make. Golf as an industry just seems doomed - but when you look at the guys at the top of the PGA or any of its organising bodies where's the insight to take it forwards? Go to any range and listen to the crap people are telling each other - or worse to thier children - to realise golfs internal misdirections. I have never heard any parent tell their child to take the club back a foot and hit 10 balls like that - then 18" then 24". What the hell is wrong with golf? They get their kids to stand right to bend their knees right to turn right - and they swing back like John Daly and constantly clatter the ball off the walls and ceiling !! Is it me!?!?
PRACTICAL THINKING TO A DIFFICULT ATHLETIC MOVE...MILLIONS SUFFER! THANK YOU
Interesting how you pick out Bubba Watson , Furyk (great putter) and Dustin Johnson as examples of "unconventional swings that work. How about the other 150 players on tour that have biomechanically "correct" swings are downright more reliable ? I dont see any good players randomly lashing at the ball with using their best attempt at "hand eye" coordination . Plus would you bet on Louis Ousthazian or Bubba down the stretch .. I take Louis all day long and if you value money you should as well !
Sydney Rapcavage so right, the golfers you mentioned are just extremely talented, the only way us mortals is to try and get sound reliable golf swing
You can't say what we're taught doesn't work, we can't say what you do doesn't work. Just tell us what you figured out and be done with it.
When did biomechanics become a specific way to swing a golf club. I like the message and the point being driven home. I'm sorry but how many golf pros have a degree in biomechanics? Sorry, but until a golf pro has done formal research and have papers published in a peer review journal, the public shouldn't be mis-lead that science is or is not the answer. Teach the skill and leave the science to the researchers!
a golf swing is all by instincts with a little knowledge of basic setups and swing path patterns.
the way you do it, you can't even produce good impact consistently so i don't know what u r on about.
These are all ideas! Concepts, methods and processes we use to relay our knowledge to one another. Some of the information is usually more precise or understandable than the rest of it. Upon reviewing the data I conclude this information to be of the ladder. Point being, he confused our perception by denouncing another professional and weakening the overall integrity of the sport. Explaining his method was far from the focal point. Showing off was my interpretation.
maybe the reason golf is so hard is because the ball is on the ground :l like for example when you hit the second shot fat, not somthing "elite golfers do"
Every swing is a product of biomechanics... There is an infinite number of biomechanically correct swings due to different make-up of human bodies/proportions. Yes it takes hand eye coordination but over simplifying the swing mechanics won't help most hackers.
This is ridiculous. Bubba Watson has one of the most biomechanically flawless swings in the history of golf and if you claim that it "can't be explained by modern golf biomechanical theory", then you're simply not educated on the correct theories.
Rektspresso ARE YOU KIDING ???
IF IT'S SO FLAWLESS HOW COME HE'S NOT NUMBER ONE ???
IF IT'S SO FLAWLESS WHY IS NOT EVERYBODY DOING IT ???
HOW COME HE'S STILL MISSING CUTS ???
the man has got great imagination , steel balls , very good reflexes and decent short game...
... BUT NOT A FLAWLESS SWING...!!!
Klaus Klaus lol dude chill out, you're drawing conclusions that have absolutely nothing to do with what I said... What I said is that he has "one of the most biomechanically flawless swings in the history of golf". Having an extremely powerful, versatile, and biomechanically efficient swing is great, but if that's all that was needed to be the best golfer in the world, then the PGA Tour would be comprised almost completely of different players than it is now with very different swings than what is now commonplace. Mental game and strategy are just as important, if not more important, than having a good swing and possessing the athleticism to pull off different shots, and if you've ever watched Bubba play, you probably know that his mental game isn't exactly up to par with other world-class players...
All I was trying to say in my original comment is that the guy in this video is mistaken if he believes Bubba's swing does not conform to biomechanical models of the golf swing. The way he swings, relative to every other golfer on earth now and in the past, is elite in terms of efficiently generating power and allowing him to hit whatever shot he needs to. I'm not saying that his swing is theoretically perfect, or that you need to swing exactly like him to have a biomechanically efficient swing, I'm just saying that his is elite.
I'll tell you this, I don't even like Bubba. In fact, I'd go as far as saying he's my least favorite player on tour. However, nobody who knows what they're talking about when it comes to physiology and golf swing mechanics will tell you that his swing is anything short of excellent
Rektspresso i'm chilled man... just that after so many years of searching for my own personal holly grail in golf i came to a similar conclusion as the man in the video...
...as for bubba... i do admire the guy... it takes brass balls to hit the second shot with the driver of the deck along side of a lake when leading on a sunday or the wedges he pulled last time he won at augusta...
...not a fan of the crying stunts but , hey , who am i to judge...
and although looks eficient at times you have to admit it's not reliable... saw bubba playing some awfull golf when he's timing is off...
the point i was trying to make it's that bubba's swing is in no way something i would encourage youngsters to follow...
Klaus Klaus Yeah I never said anything about encouraging anyone to copy his swing. Even if there was someone else in the world who could pull off that exact swing, they probably wouldn't be able to execute shots nearly as consistently as Bubba does. While there are certain things and moves that can be done in the swing that inherently work better than others, everyone has their own unique swing and it's impossible to try to make everyone model their swings after a very specific model or another player's swing.
I do know what you mean about the whole "searching for the Holy Grail" thing, although I can't say I've been searching for many years yet (I'm 20 and have been playing golf since I was 9, but I only just started to take an interest in learning about the swing last year). However I have discovered a few sources that are miles ahead of any other golf instruction method or swing model I have encountered and would love to share. The most notable of which is an instructor named Kelvin Miyahira who studies the swing from a very scientific perspective and understands the movements the human body makes as well as the best way to combine movements together to form the most powerful and efficient swing possible. But rather than rambling on, I'll just cut to the chase. He has written many articles on golf, all of which can be found at www.aroundhawaii.com/speed_training.html and he also has a youtube channel with a great selection of videos which you can find easily by searching his name on here,
I know you have no reason to listen to me as a random commentor on youtube, but please give him a chance and read at least one article. I guarantee you wont be disappointed.
Rektspresso I think you missed his point entirely. Neither Furyk or Bubba created their golf swings by putting together a set of "proper" status-quo mechanics, and forcing their bodies to conform to those mechanics. That is exactly what most teachers do (e.g. boggle students minds with swing thoughts like "swinging on a plane" and "firing the hips" as if anyone can consciously control firing the hips at the precise instant the right elbow has come through so as to not get stuck).
The man clearly has a knack of hitting the ball during his physical gyrations. What mystifies me is how, if it's down to 'hand eye' co-ordination, how would I ever be able to play the game having only a right eye or for that matter, how do blind golfers succeed.? Knacks cannot be taught but can be self learned if there is some intrinsic talent - which in most folks there is not. The success of a golf shot lies between 85 - 90% of the setup and this kind of drivel is only a way of some smart bloke showing off and at the same time, taking money for it...Nice floor show pal but I'm not buying it.
this is way too lengthy
This is an example of a golf instructor being controversial just to differentiate himself and get attention. This could possibly be good advice for people who overthink the swing and are just looking to maybe break 100, but for anyone who wants to be at least decent at golf, it is essential to understand basic fundamentals and have a proper setup and connected takeaway to give yourself the best chances possible of hitting a good shot. It's great that you have practiced your silly happy gilmore shot to prove your point, but here's my question, why don't you play with this shot on the course? It's because you won't play CONSISTENT golf like this, and golf instruction is meant to help people play more consistently. While every pro's swing has minute differences, there are a lot of similarities that you are not picking up on that are key. I see most amateurs out on the course with their own comfortable, awkward swing, and this is exactly what is holding people back from playing better golf. They are practicing and ingraining poor mechanics.
***** There are many different ways to swing the golf club, but I feel strongly that there are fundamentals to golf and similar mechanics that all the great players have. There are a lot of amateurs who have never had any golf instruction who will never improve their game unless they get help. Not everyone can spend countless hours figuring it out like Hogan.
+John Iroler Couldn't have said it better myself John. Here is a video of a young golfer doing just what you are describing, focused fully on his target, and the biomechanics and positions that his body is moving through are a RESULT of his focus (the target, not himself and swing mechanics and 'swing positions') and his intention -- strike ball with stick, send ball an accurate distance and direction to hit the MOVING target on four successive shots:
ruclips.net/video/AvGgM7Tq_iw/видео.html
Scientifically speaking, he is learning motor movement skill (in this case, swinging a golf club and striking a golf ball) through a subconscious process called implicit learning. This is the process through which all humans and animals learn to use their limbs for crawling, balancing, walking, running, grasping, throwing, etc. There is very little if any conscious awareness of exactly how the limbs are moving or how the skill is developing. It is just through instinctive experimentation and the subconscious mind just stores and uses the most successful and efficient movement patterns and discards the experimentations that weren't successful.
That's why the vast majority of the greatest professional golfers started as young kids... Rory was 18 months old. Tiger was 2. Arnold was 4. Lorena was 5. The Watsons - Tom and Bubba - were 6. Yani was 6. Lydia was 7. Jack was 10. Annika was 12. Sir Nick was 13. Gary was the elder statesman of the group taking up the game at age 14. All legends or legends to be, recognizable by their first name alone, and all fit the pattern of starting the game at a young age.
And the most interesting thing is that no matter what skill movement is being learned, no two human beings will move exactly alike: that's why big brother can track us now with gait recognition software. Every human being walks similarly to everyone else but never in exactly the same fashion because we all have a unique "walk." That's why no two golf swings are alike and trying to "copy" Adam Scott or Rory or Tiger so your swing positions look just like them rarely if ever produces the intended outcome -- tour pro quality contact -- flush sweet spot contact virtually every time -- and consistent directional control. That is a skill development process that only comes through endless hours of practice (like Hogan digging it out of the dirt) which the vast majority of recreational golfers simply do not have the time for even if they wanted to.
+John Iroler Honestly I appreciate the points that both of you make, and I do agree in part, but I have seen dramatic improvement in my game after working on my mechanics and my takeaway in particular. I was swinging the club in a way that was comfortable for me before, but It really caused me to cut across the ball, especially with my driver. I had a flying right elbow and an overswing that caused me to slice the golf ball no matter how hard I tried to square the face at impact. Some golfers need and can benefit from instruction. I wish I could have started at such an early age, but I started at age 17, and I played only on occasion, so the easiest way for me to get better has been to get help.
+John Iroler I know Nicklaus had a flying right elbow, but he was certainly not the longest or the straightest hitter. In fact i'm pretty sure that he played a fade. It worked for Nicklaus, but this was not the ideal swing for me. Nicklaus' swing also put a tremendous amount of pressure on his back. I do agree that there is a lot of poor golf instruction out there, but I don't seem to think that golf is as simple as swinging freely and fluidly and using hand eye coordination to strike the ball. It's an interesting discussion, I just know that from personal experience, working on mechanics has helped my game tremendously.
+John Iroler Jack hit the ball a long way, but he was not the longest. He also played a fade as I mentioned, so technically he was not a straight hitter. There are more efficient ways to get distance than letting your elbow fly out, that is why it goes against modern golf instruction.
FALSE!! I guess it's easy to see why he never made any professional tour. Furyk and Watson have biomechanically excellent swings. Its about the impact position... In which 99% of touring pros are identical at impact. This guy is ridiculous.
Nick Hagan
What's "ridiculous" is to talk about impact as a "position." And what you're saying here is not only a misstatement of what the OP says, it's a terrible argument against it. In fact, you're making his point, and you don't even know it.
"You're body will simply obey instructions from your brain ...." Disagree ....
Half the time your brain has no say. The spinal chord holds an array of "sub-routines" implanted by years and years of repetition. The brain has no time to process and co-ordinate multiple muscles. This is a well know medical fact, and why decapitated chickens "walk" and "brainless" frogs swim. Of course, such actions are made without purpose or balance. With constant repetition, some of this gets into a golf swing.
+SearchBucket2 You a doctor or brain expert? I don't think you are qualified to comment on golf, let alone medical things.
Peppa
Haha this is comic.
Chill out .. Way too much Time on your hands
You can't break 80 l bet you 10k
quit your yappin and just golf 😂
You think too much
What is the point of this video, I can hit a ball good, so listen to how smart I am. No advice, no this is the way I think of it. Or help of any kind, just some know it all
stop pacing and rambling and hitting trick shots, write a script BEFORE filming with clear and concise points that you are trying to make and cut the rest out, jesus