Totally agree Britt. Tudor makes an excellent watch at the price point. I have 4 Tudors. GMT S&G and Chronograph Panda, reverse Panda and S&G Chronograph. Bit overkill with Chronographs 🤦♂️😳
Founding Kenissi to manufacture movements was a brilliant move for Tudor. Not only do they manufacture outstanding movements, but they can sell them to other watch manufacturers without diluting Tudor's brand. I see Kenissi in the same way I see Epson producing NH35 and NH36 movements. They're the same movement as a Seiko 4R35 or 4R36, but they don't have Seiko stamped on them, and I am sure they do that to protect their brand image too. I know the MT5402 in my Ranger is not a Rolex movement, but it is the most accurate mechanical I've ever owned straight out of the box. They're doing something right at Tudor/Kenissi.
I’m not sure I agree. NH35s, 34s and 36s being widely available for cheap and inside cheaper watches makes me look at $500 Seikos and have me think that this $30 AliExpress watch on my wrist has the same movement and even higher specs in Saphire glass.
SAME HERE!!! I felt exactly the same! Even just him showing the robots and like all the tubes and everything. It was insanely efficient and I get why they do it! But it did feel like a bit of charm missing. 🙈
Mass-produced, machine-made, there’s no other way to produce the huge output volumes of Tudor (and Rolex for that matter). It’s colossally profitable. It’s up to you to decide if the price tag is worth it.
The elephant in the room with ‘in-house’ calibres is when your watch needs servicing; good luck finding a watchmaker a) willing to touch it and b) able to source parts. You might only be able to afford one service by the manufacturer, after all you need at least one kidney 😉 😆😂🤣
Staring at my black/white with red lettering Pelagos 39 and seeing that video with all the robots made me think of Tudor as the Tesla motors of horology. There is no telling where this brand can go.
'in house' always reminds me of the 'small batch' , 'locally sourced' , 'handcrafted' tags you see on a lot of health food or more expensive products, usually as way to make it feel like more effort has gone into it, or that it is somehow more unique - as a justification for a higher price too, usually. Great video as always :)
Completely agree. "In house movement" on a watch means nothing and doesn't make a watch any better. We're not talking about tech where an in house SoC and hardware pairs well together. I'll never understand why watch heads put watches with in house movements on such a high pedestal.
Tudor does keep certain things, like their balance springs exclusive to themselves. Can’t wait to see their new Chronograph movement. It’s gonna be cool.
This channel is just a beautifully articulate narrative on things that are important to the industry. That’s down to Brits resonant presentation. Entertaining and informative. One of my favorite watch channels.
Thanks for doing the hard work to research and make this video! This is stuff I've been thinking for a while now and you nailed it. Personally, I don't care if a movement is in-house or not on a regular watch. Would I want a Royal Oak to be running an SW200-1? No, but expectations are much higher for a "proper" and much more expensive luxury watch. What I do want is higher specs. COSC or better on a luxury watch? Yes. Longer power reserve instead of 38 hours or so? Yes. I'd rather it be something known, reliable, and easy to service with most watch makers if it's got the specs/tech I expect at the price point.
3:40 it's noteworthy that only Breitling seems to care about providing these movements with any sort of decorative finishing. Have to say, as much as I love my BB58 925, the amount of care put into the finishing is simply Seiko level.
I used to care about in-house, but I feel so free when I wear my watches with Eta movements, knowing they won't cost a fortune to service every 5 years. My Sinn EZM 13.1 is also accurate to about a second per day, so I have no complaints.
Something else people forget alot about movements that are completely in house and not "corporate inhouse" is that they generally have greater parts availability, faster repair times, and cheaper repairs.
I really enjoyed this video. I wonder if you’d be keen on putting your watch-sleuthing skills to work on a video about servicing costs. I know I’d love to watch a video exploring that topic, which I feel is kept deliberately opaque. I reckon it would be useful in helping people make more informed choices about what they buy. Thanks for your awesomeness.
Hello Brit hope everything is going great. I agree Tudor makes excellent watches for price point. I have 4 Tudors. GMT S&G , Chronograph Panda, reverse Panda and Chronograph S&G. Yes overkill with three Chronographs 🤦♂️😳Britt your doing great job with your channel.🥳
It is quite a difficult subject to address...it is complicated because the companies have made it so. You did a wonderful job here. If they wouldnt try to use the in house terminology but rather open the doors to these facilities and educate us all about what a wonderful maker of movements they are !!!!!!! We could love them too !!! Thanks !!!
Hey Brittany, to me it doesn't bother me if the movement is in house or not. I go for the aesthetics of the watch, how it looks on my wrist. I know some watch brands are given a hard time for this but their watches look great. Tudor watches are awesome regardless if their movements are not in house.
Great video. Nuanced perspective. A brand that nobody likes to compare with Tudor is Longines. It's not exactly the same thing as they are not a majority owner of ETA. But they also have their corporate in house movement production next door in the same complex, pumping out all their proprietary flyback chronograph, Ultra-Chron, 72hr power reserve movements which are assembled at the Longines facility.
Even if it's a big conglomerate, as long as it is vertically integrated in the business, you can call it in-house. Rolex, Parmigiani Fleurier, Moser, Richemont, Swatch. If it has good specs and performance, that's what matters. I bought my first Tudor this summer and I'm very impressed by the Kenissi movement. Almost Superlative Chronometer, Datejust, rugged, very good value for the price.
Britt!! I do not think it matters at all. IMHO, the marketing of an "In-House" caliber is just that.."Marketing". It is a selling point to 2 different people. One, people just getting into watches and is used to convince them to make the leap and jump to a slightly higher level of watch. Or two, for those persons for whom the price is irrelevant to their purchasing decision. But who am I to deride either one? The caliber is probably the last item on my purchasing checklist. Long Live the Cult(s), and 4:30 Date windows!!
This was a brilliant video, I remember reading about SSIH or whatever they are called coming together with the movement manufacturer you talked about. my understanding as they were based on another movement and were spun out of JLC . over the decades these things have become so intertwined that it doesn’t really make a lot of difference.
Another great video! Can’t wait for the next one. I know other people have done it, but I’d appreciate a video from you explaining different levels of certification. Also a video on movements that are really good that are found in watches and what to look for. Like how Christopher ward uses Selita movements, but what should I look for and what differentiates them from one another
In house enough for me! I have the Ranger with the MT 5402 movement and I love it! I’m thinking of getting the Black Bay 58 next which has the same movement.
Another related topic is machine assembled and finished movements vs hand assembled and finished… there are pros and cons there to explore if you want an even geekier topic to wrestle with Britt
I feel like if Kenissi are literally in the same building, then Tudor can call it in-house. Maybe the more important question is mass produced vs. personal attention. I think "in-house" may have been a shorthand for that in the past but it's not really accurate. A Vostok Amphibia or Seiko SKX is in-house and a Royal Oak has an outsourced movement, but the Royal Oak definitely has a lot more personal attention in its production than the others.
start calling these by their geographic proximity to the main plant; for tudor, call it a “next door” movement, and for some others, “beyond the river”, “over the north mountain”, “in the woods, just before grandma’s house” movements.
Compared to Breitling, it feels like Tudor really doesn't hype their movements. The MT movements are great though. A pleasure to wind and COSC/METAS specs. Gotta love em.
I loved this video!! Just as that video from Adrian. True in-house movements are great of course... we watch nerds can't get enough of that type of technical stuff 🧐 My Navitimer has a true in-house movement, the Breitling B01. And my Tudor BB Chrone S&G is fantastic but it doesn't even have a Tudor/Kenissi movement. It has the same Breitling B01 movement, slightly adjusted by Tudor, and I'm fine with that because that movement is absolutely brilliant 🤩 True in-house is absolutely great but is also almost always comes with a premium price 💰 The Navitimer is quite a bit more expensive than the BB Chrono 🤔😬 Cheers Britt 🤩
Great video! Spot on. It's "in house" if the company or department are within the same corporate house. If Nomos started selling their movements to other watch manufacturers it doesn't make the movement less "in house" in Nomos watches. Nor does splitting the Nomos movement department into another SBU to sell movements. Also, in- house doesn't make the watch or movement better. Would you take an ST2130 in a Sea-Gull watch over an equally nice watch from a microbrand using a SW200 because the Sea-Gull uses an "in-house" movement in their watches? People get hung up on the most trivial things.
Watching this with my Tudor Northflag feels different ! Still love the uniqueness and symbolism of my beloved and discontinued watch ❤. Saludos Gringa de relojes !
What in-house signifies is that the company wasn't constrained in their design by having to fit it to (and around) a preexisting set of internal parameters. Car companies do the same thing by designing their own engines. What would you think about buying a Toyota or Hyundai or Nissan or Honda that all used the same engine? Wouldn't that lower your expection of a few of them? 🤔
Another great video, Brittany, thank you 🙂👍. Bet very few house make their own ruby bearings. Athough I've read at least one of them make their own oil! Lange? Seiko, maybe? Anyway, thanks again 🙂🙂🙂
Power reserve matters more to me, and most off-the-shelf movements are averaging 40 hours, which isn't good enough. That's why I've started looking at La Joux-Perret (or Swiss Myota), because a three-hand watch with 68 hours (60 hours before time starts to drift) is awesome. And a third-party movement re-democratizes the whole right to repair, taking away the dependencies on brands. These manufacturer movements can mean sending away your watch for half a year and paying their higher fees.
Yet another fantastic video! I knew there was some sleight of hand by those manufacturers using the term “in house” but I’m much more educated having watched the video. I’m still of the view that I don’t care. Either the watch is a good one in terms of looks etc and keeps accurate time, or it doesn’t. I’ll buy the former but not the latter. Job done.
I think Tudor are fine, they founded that Kenissi thing and built it next door. A bad one was Panerai, claiming the movements were in house when they were made by a different company, ValFleurier. At least they are both owned by Richemont. The really bad was Heuer, when they claimed a Seiko movement they were using was 100% in house!!! Then there are the hidden ones, like Sicura calling themselves Breitling and putting Kelek movements in the watches, but at least Sicura did buy the Breitling name and the Kelek company.
They aren’t. They would be in-house if Tudor themselves put in the effort, but they instead outsourced their work to external talent hired under a new company. Tudor never had the know-how in movement manufacturing, always using ETA, and once ETA pulled out of the deal, they had to seek out someone else who would make their movements. It doesn’t matter if Kenissi is under the Tudor umbrella; it remains a separate company made of people who never were part of Tudor itself. If I hire a gardener and let him live in my house, I’m not doing my own gardening. He is still very much his own person and I cannot take credit for his work. Ever noticed how in promotional material Tudor never uses the term in-house? They instead italicize the term “Manufacture” which people instantly associate with in-house production, while they actually mean it’s been commissioned to third party talent.
Wow, you taught me something today Britt. I own BB 7930R and I was under the incorrect assumption that the movement was truly “in house” I can’t say I’m not a little disappointed, I’m very disappointed. Keep up the great videos.
I always enjoy your content! In manufacturing parlance, I believe that “Captive manufacturer” is the appropriate term for the movement maker that the primary company owns. Captive movement vs in-house movement vs outsourced movement.
It’s a messy debate due to ambiguity. For me, what matters most about “in-house” isn’t a physical location of manufacture, but rather “is this movement unique to this model or brand?” If the answer is yes, the movement is unique to that brand, is made only for that brand, it doesn’t matter if it’s made under the same roof as where the CEO’s office is or a different building or even a partner company. Thats all that matters when we think “in-house” for any brand under the holy trinity tier. So if the movement in the Black Bay is a movement that only exists in a Tudor, that’s what matters as “in house”. Same with an Omega, that co-axial movement only exists in an Omega. Doesn’t matter what building it was made in or the name on the building as long as it’s a partner or sister company.
Well said about it all it is definitely marketing ploy with a lot of the brands to be honest I’m not bothered either way on the mind level brands as long as the are accurate and reliable that’s the main thing for me I love my Tudor Pelagos 42 with its “ in house movement” but I also love my Tudor Royal with it’s off the shelf movement what is accurate enough at the end of the day they are all mass produced watches in big factories by hundreds of people not one guy in a shed
Hey Britt, good video. A few comments to note. The only reason manufacturers are moving to "in-house" movements is because ETA decided to reduce the number of ébauche they supply the industry - that's it, there is no other reason and any manufacturer (or watch 'expert' for that matter) claiming otherwise are talking of their derriere. This was aeons ago and the Swiss government had to interfere instructing ETA to phase the reduction of the supply or the Swiss watch industry would have collapsed. Most "in-house" movements are ETA clones of movements which had their patents expired. Real watch collectors do not give a toss about "in-house" movements, they care about the history of the watch, rarity, a certain aspect, etc. The most expensive Rolex ever sold has an ETA movement (I beg your audience not to bore me with the Valjoux vs ETA malarkey). The quality of a movement has nothing to do with it being "In-house", in fact the best movements had been ébauche and contrary to what most 'experts' think, ETA makes top tier movements. Apologies for the length of this, it's nice to see a real watch-related video rather than bullshit and clickbait.
I appreciate the presentation of two senses of "in-house." Much watch discourse seems to be fractured between romantic notions of crafting virtuosity and multi-national conglomerates simply trying to do 'good business' while pushing out marketing to please the romantics.
Interesting working in Clothing manufacturing, the term truly vertical production factory, to in theory control everything from Spinning, brushing, cotton, CMT of garments, finishing, Dye ...blah blah in source country is deemed very important by brands to insure standards and price points...the reality is often very different with offsite CMT for example when bulk orders are taken...honestly my watch collection only contains items that are important to me regardless of price, if I spent £25k on a fantastic looking and finished mechanical watch, to be told it’s not an in-house movement, but the best sourced movement for that watch...it would or should not matter..in my humble opinion....loving the content 😊
Grand seiko produces everything in their facilities, from the lubricants to the bracelets, the quartz grown in their factory.The most vertically integrated watchmaker perhaps. Tudor is in house in the same sense as Longines is.Swatch group manuftures some eta movements exclusively for Longines. Tudor and Longines are competing for the same space.
The company was founded and is owned by Tudor plus the factory is literally stuck to the Tudor factory. They are far more "in house" than omegas movements, that's not a dig at omega they are great movements but they are definitely pushing the definition of the word . An In house movement is only a good thing if the movement is good, it's not inherently a good or bad thing .
Great content. Moser does the exact same,thing with Precision Engineering. They supply parts to all sorts of Indies. This is also how they make Moser watches so affordable compared to say Holy Trinity counterparts. Keep up the amazing work 💪🏻🕰️
I have watches that have in-house movements and watches that don't. I look at the price point (does the in-house movement justify the premium?). I aim to have a collection with different movements throughout. I don't want a collection of many watches with a ETA7750. Great movement but one or two examples will do- then find a watch powered by something else.
Excellent video and very diplomatically put. I'd have gone with something more along the lines of "in-house is expensive marketing BS." You absolutely hit the nail on the head - economies of scale are great for the consumer; romantic "in-house" cottage industries are inefficient. All that matters to me is parts availability - does the manufacturer curently supply parts to independent watchmakers or do they force you to use their service centres (at much higher cost)? How long do they guarantee parts supply in the future? I'd always go for a movement produced in very high volumes so that even if parts aren't available, there will be plenty of movements to cannibalise in a few decades' time. Some of the most exciting "in house", or shall we say "in group" stuff is being done by the much-despised ETA. The COSC certifiable variants of the Powermatic 80 variants with silicon balance spring are pretty groundbreaking in the sub-$1000 section.
When I think about in-house vs. third-party movements, I look at it this way: Boeing doesn't make their own engines. When they design an airliner, they call up Rolls Royce, Pratt & Whitney, or GE, because they have a proven product, and they are experts in what they do. I assume there is some customization involved. I see nothing wrong with a watch manufacturer putting a proven, third-party "engine" in their watch. I guess it depends on whether you want your watch to be fully unique, or whether reliability and the ability to have it serviced by someone other than the manufacturer matter more. It comes down to personal preference, and either way is fine.
The only truly in-house movements I am sure of is from Seiko, but ONLY for Seiko's made in Japan and Orient who do in-house movements for all their watches. Then there is Grand Seiko who literally make every single component in-house. So, it depends on what one means by in-house. As for in-house slightly more loosely, Tudor is indeed in-house given the realities of modern day manufacturing. Even Seiko using movements produced in Malaysia are made in Seiko owned factories so are still technically in-house, maybe still more in-house than Tudor. As long as it's a good movement I don't mind.
By this logic, ETA is an "in-house" movement manufacturer for the Swatch group brands. And ETA makes good movements no doubt! But I wouldn't consider them "in-house"
Tudor movements are manufactured by Kenissi exclusively and not provided to other watch manufacturers. Kenissi makes movements for other clients and some components are shared just not whole movements. The only exception that I am aware of is the B01 movement provided by Breitling for the Tudor Black Bay
Brilliant, but a bit silly. Can we also talk about off the shelf movements. Don't they use shelfs at Rolex, Aegler probably had shelfs? Have they stored them in drawers, what is the best way to keep a movement before putting it in a watch? Or must the manufacturer also own the shelf they use for the movement?
I truly believe “in-house” movement is now more of a flex & cornering the market for servicing amongst brands. That being said, customers have the right to have preferences but they do not have the right to downplay others based upon their own biases. 😊
With all of this being said, I've been considering purchasing a Black Bay 36 with the anthracite dial. It has the Tudor MT5400. There are similar BB 36s, minus the "jubilee" bracelet, chronometer certification, and "in-house" movement. Which one should I get? One of the things I like most about the 2023 model is the magnetic resistance because I work around fairly strong magnets as well as electronics. It's a huge selling point to me, but I don't know if the price difference is worth it.
I own a couple of BB58s and I find them super robust and accurate. However, I did come across more than a few comments on YT that suggest Tudor are in the habit of swapping out the entire MT movement for a new one when a watch is sent in for service, rather than employ technicians to 'service ' the parts as required. No idea if this is true, but mass production economies of scale would suggest this might be financially prudent for Tudor. Any thoughts?
My biggest want is simply transparency- call it a in house movement when not is the issue. Just say a modified xyz. State what was modified, new escapement ?, just custom finishing, state it
You forgot about La Joux-Perret. They are the Swiss counterpart owned by Citizen. Their G100 movements are beginning to find their way into many smaller, but slightly upscale watch brands like Farer. The Solargraph by Tag Hauer is also sporting a La Joux-Perret solar movement. Wonder where they got the technology for that??? I'm all for it. Sharing technology and producing movements at scale can only mean one thing to the buyer, and that's cheaper and more reliable movements. Okay, that's two things.
You’ve got its absolutely spot on , but another way of looking at this in terms of the prestigious and heritage of a watch maybe is just about in house now ? if people want to talk about prestigious of creating a movement then the irony of course Rolex come way down the line, they did not create their own movements in fact they didn’t create much of anything except the use of the word oyster, the question is how much difference does this really make in the modern area of the last 30 years? None really. what it does make is a point about cost of a watch when you take away gold diamonds platinum. Tudor had no real choice but to make their own movements otherwise they would have to use Rolex movements - and in the eyes of some people that would devalue Rolex.
To draw an analogy, we might be ok to get a Toyota Corolla that would share an engine with a Nissan Sentra but would be shocked to get a Mercedes sharing the same engine or a Ferrari sharing an engine with another maker.
My perspective is that in-house means it cost more to develop and manufacture, so it makes sense that the price tag is higher. But that doesn't mean it's actually a better watch, it's ust a more expensive watch. The same way PM isn't really any better than steel or titanium in terms of functionality, but we accept that it's priced higher because it costs more to source and to work with.
I know certain collectors only buy movements in-house. I only ask that a movement be accurate +/- 5 seconds per day, reliable, and affordable so the manufacturer can put the money into the dial. However, an expensive luxury watch over $10,000 should have an in-house movement.
Britt. Have heard the Kenissi movements are just swapped out at service time for a new/refurbed unit. So when you get your bb58 back it won’t have the same movement. Kinda destroys the Tudor value proposition for me.
Question why does it matter if its an in house movement? Shouldn’t it just matter if its a good movement? Being made in house could not necessarily mean a good movement. I personally would rather have out of house excellent movement than an average in house movement?
Imagine watching a Gringa video and realizing you have the actual subject (“in house” BB58) on your wrist! My day is complete.
🤣🤣🤣 AND THE GRINGA IS REPLYING… wearing her BB58! 🤣💕💕💕 (ok I was wearing my BB54 but I changed out of it just for the comment! Completely worth it!!)
@@BrittPearceWatches day just got better 😀
Totally agree Britt. Tudor makes an excellent watch at the price point. I have 4 Tudors. GMT S&G and Chronograph Panda, reverse Panda and S&G Chronograph. Bit overkill with Chronographs 🤦♂️😳
I have a Northflag;)
Great video and topic. Thanks for the info and discussion. Love your style!
Founding Kenissi to manufacture movements was a brilliant move for Tudor. Not only do they manufacture outstanding movements, but they can sell them to other watch manufacturers without diluting Tudor's brand. I see Kenissi in the same way I see Epson producing NH35 and NH36 movements. They're the same movement as a Seiko 4R35 or 4R36, but they don't have Seiko stamped on them, and I am sure they do that to protect their brand image too. I know the MT5402 in my Ranger is not a Rolex movement, but it is the most accurate mechanical I've ever owned straight out of the box. They're doing something right at Tudor/Kenissi.
I’m not sure I agree. NH35s, 34s and 36s being widely available for cheap and inside cheaper watches makes me look at $500 Seikos and have me think that this $30 AliExpress watch on my wrist has the same movement and even higher specs in Saphire glass.
Watching Adrian at Tudor with this state of the art facility was an eye opener. Naively I thought it was alot more hands on through the process.
SAME HERE!!! I felt exactly the same! Even just him showing the robots and like all the tubes and everything. It was insanely efficient and I get why they do it! But it did feel like a bit of charm missing. 🙈
Mass-produced, machine-made, there’s no other way to produce the huge output volumes of Tudor (and Rolex for that matter). It’s colossally profitable. It’s up to you to decide if the price tag is worth it.
The elephant in the room with ‘in-house’ calibres is when your watch needs servicing; good luck finding a watchmaker a) willing to touch it and b) able to source parts. You might only be able to afford one service by the manufacturer, after all you need at least one kidney 😉 😆😂🤣
Staring at my black/white with red lettering Pelagos 39 and seeing that video with all the robots made me think of Tudor as the Tesla motors of horology. There is no telling where this brand can go.
'in house' always reminds me of the 'small batch' , 'locally sourced' , 'handcrafted' tags you see on a lot of health food or more expensive products, usually as way to make it feel like more effort has gone into it, or that it is somehow more unique - as a justification for a higher price too, usually. Great video as always :)
Completely agree. "In house movement" on a watch means nothing and doesn't make a watch any better. We're not talking about tech where an in house SoC and hardware pairs well together. I'll never understand why watch heads put watches with in house movements on such a high pedestal.
Tudor does keep certain things, like their balance springs exclusive to themselves. Can’t wait to see their new Chronograph movement. It’s gonna be cool.
Honestly sometimes inhouse movements are a pain in the ass when it's about service and spareparts
This channel is just a beautifully articulate narrative on things that are important to the industry. That’s down to Brits resonant presentation. Entertaining and informative. One of my favorite watch channels.
Thanks for doing the hard work to research and make this video! This is stuff I've been thinking for a while now and you nailed it. Personally, I don't care if a movement is in-house or not on a regular watch. Would I want a Royal Oak to be running an SW200-1? No, but expectations are much higher for a "proper" and much more expensive luxury watch. What I do want is higher specs. COSC or better on a luxury watch? Yes. Longer power reserve instead of 38 hours or so? Yes. I'd rather it be something known, reliable, and easy to service with most watch makers if it's got the specs/tech I expect at the price point.
3:40 it's noteworthy that only Breitling seems to care about providing these movements with any sort of decorative finishing. Have to say, as much as I love my BB58 925, the amount of care put into the finishing is simply Seiko level.
I used to care about in-house, but I feel so free when I wear my watches with Eta movements, knowing they won't cost a fortune to service every 5 years. My Sinn EZM 13.1 is also accurate to about a second per day, so I have no complaints.
I had crazy accuracy from Sinn as well, very underrated manufacturer with great regulation of the movements they use.
Something else people forget alot about movements that are completely in house and not "corporate inhouse" is that they generally have greater parts availability, faster repair times, and cheaper repairs.
I really enjoyed this video. I wonder if you’d be keen on putting your watch-sleuthing skills to work on a video about servicing costs. I know I’d love to watch a video exploring that topic, which I feel is kept deliberately opaque. I reckon it would be useful in helping people make more informed choices about what they buy. Thanks for your awesomeness.
Again another brilliant video to breakdown some of the stigma in the watch world! Thanks Britt for a wonderful video!
Hello Brit hope everything is going great. I agree Tudor makes excellent watches for price point. I have 4 Tudors. GMT S&G , Chronograph Panda, reverse Panda and Chronograph S&G. Yes overkill with three Chronographs 🤦♂️😳Britt your doing great job with your channel.🥳
It is quite a difficult subject to address...it is complicated because the companies have made it so. You did a wonderful job here. If they wouldnt try to use the in house terminology but rather open the doors to these facilities and educate us all about what a wonderful maker of movements they are !!!!!!! We could love them too !!! Thanks !!!
I tend to think that “In-house” also enables Manufacturers to potentially capture more watch servicing market.
Just added the Harrods Black Bay to my collection. Sweet bezel color and I love how it feels on the wrist!
Hey Brittany, to me it doesn't bother me if the movement is in house or not. I go for the aesthetics of the watch, how it looks on my wrist. I know some watch brands are given a hard time for this but their watches look great. Tudor watches are awesome regardless if their movements are not in house.
Exactly who cares as long as its good!
Great video. Nuanced perspective. A brand that nobody likes to compare with Tudor is Longines. It's not exactly the same thing as they are not a majority owner of ETA. But they also have their corporate in house movement production next door in the same complex, pumping out all their proprietary flyback chronograph, Ultra-Chron, 72hr power reserve movements which are assembled at the Longines facility.
Thank you for the hard work that you have put into yet another fine and informative video!
Even if it's a big conglomerate, as long as it is vertically integrated in the business, you can call it in-house. Rolex, Parmigiani Fleurier, Moser, Richemont, Swatch. If it has good specs and performance, that's what matters. I bought my first Tudor this summer and I'm very impressed by the Kenissi movement. Almost Superlative Chronometer, Datejust, rugged, very good value for the price.
Totally agree with this take on what in-house means.
Britt!! I do not think it matters at all. IMHO, the marketing of an "In-House" caliber is just that.."Marketing". It is a selling point to 2 different people. One, people just getting into watches and is used to convince them to make the leap and jump to a slightly higher level of watch. Or two, for those persons for whom the price is irrelevant to their purchasing decision. But who am I to deride either one? The caliber is probably the last item on my purchasing checklist. Long Live the Cult(s), and 4:30 Date windows!!
This was a brilliant video, I remember reading about SSIH or whatever they are called coming together with the movement manufacturer you talked about. my understanding as they were based on another movement and were spun out of JLC . over the decades these things have become so intertwined that it doesn’t really make a lot of difference.
Just got a Tudor Black Bay Pro and the accuracy has shocked me. This thing runs -1 second every two days! Very impressed.
Wow. What a great video Britt👍🏼!! A well thought out and explained topic. Awesome!!
Great video Brittany. Best start to the weekend and a reason to finish work a tad early 😁🥃
Another great video! Can’t wait for the next one. I know other people have done it, but I’d appreciate a video from you explaining different levels of certification. Also a video on movements that are really good that are found in watches and what to look for. Like how Christopher ward uses Selita movements, but what should I look for and what differentiates them from one another
In house enough for me! I have the Ranger with the MT 5402 movement and I love it! I’m thinking of getting the Black Bay 58 next which has the same movement.
Another related topic is machine assembled and finished movements vs hand assembled and finished… there are pros and cons there to explore if you want an even geekier topic to wrestle with Britt
Great work Britt. Love your content nd the quality. Always informative and fun. Thank you 🎉
I feel like if Kenissi are literally in the same building, then Tudor can call it in-house.
Maybe the more important question is mass produced vs. personal attention. I think "in-house" may have been a shorthand for that in the past but it's not really accurate. A Vostok Amphibia or Seiko SKX is in-house and a Royal Oak has an outsourced movement, but the Royal Oak definitely has a lot more personal attention in its production than the others.
start calling these by their geographic proximity to the main plant; for tudor, call it a “next door” movement, and for some others, “beyond the river”, “over the north mountain”, “in the woods, just before grandma’s house” movements.
Compared to Breitling, it feels like Tudor really doesn't hype their movements. The MT movements are great though. A pleasure to wind and COSC/METAS specs. Gotta love em.
Really enlightening about Tudor's watch movements! 🕰️
I loved this video!! Just as that video from Adrian.
True in-house movements are great of course... we watch nerds can't get enough of that type of technical stuff 🧐
My Navitimer has a true in-house movement, the Breitling B01.
And my Tudor BB Chrone S&G is fantastic but it doesn't even have a Tudor/Kenissi movement. It has the same Breitling B01 movement, slightly adjusted by Tudor, and I'm fine with that because that movement is absolutely brilliant 🤩
True in-house is absolutely great but is also almost always comes with a premium price 💰 The Navitimer is quite a bit more expensive than the BB Chrono 🤔😬
Cheers Britt 🤩
“Gringles” “there’s” “a” “lot” “of” “air quotes” in this vid my love. 🫶🏽🫶🏽🫶🏽
Great video! Spot on.
It's "in house" if the company or department are within the same corporate house. If Nomos started selling their movements to other watch manufacturers it doesn't make the movement less "in house" in Nomos watches. Nor does splitting the Nomos movement department into another SBU to sell movements. Also, in- house doesn't make the watch or movement better. Would you take an ST2130 in a Sea-Gull watch over an equally nice watch from a microbrand using a SW200 because the Sea-Gull uses an "in-house" movement in their watches?
People get hung up on the most trivial things.
Rad! I could never afford one, but for the super rich, 100k is like 10 bucks for me. So, sure! Thanks!
Very interesting piece Britt.
Watching this with my Tudor Northflag feels different ! Still love the uniqueness and symbolism of my beloved and discontinued watch ❤. Saludos Gringa de relojes !
Thanks Brittany. Enjoyed a lot
Great video gringa! Love your channel.
What in-house signifies is that the company wasn't constrained in their design by having to fit it to (and around) a preexisting set of internal parameters. Car companies do the same thing by designing their own engines. What would you think about buying a Toyota or Hyundai or Nissan or Honda that all used the same engine? Wouldn't that lower your expection of a few of them? 🤔
Another great video, Brittany, thank you 🙂👍. Bet very few house make their own ruby bearings. Athough I've read at least one of them make their own oil! Lange? Seiko, maybe? Anyway, thanks again 🙂🙂🙂
Great video. I personally have fallen in love with Oris. Calibre 400 all the way!
Power reserve matters more to me, and most off-the-shelf movements are averaging 40 hours, which isn't good enough. That's why I've started looking at La Joux-Perret (or Swiss Myota), because a three-hand watch with 68 hours (60 hours before time starts to drift) is awesome. And a third-party movement re-democratizes the whole right to repair, taking away the dependencies on brands. These manufacturer movements can mean sending away your watch for half a year and paying their higher fees.
Yet another fantastic video! I knew there was some sleight of hand by those manufacturers using the term “in house” but I’m much more educated having watched the video. I’m still of the view that I don’t care. Either the watch is a good one in terms of looks etc and keeps accurate time, or it doesn’t. I’ll buy the former but not the latter. Job done.
Britney the “internet detective”, it has a ring to it 😉👍
I think Tudor are fine, they founded that Kenissi thing and built it next door. A bad one was Panerai, claiming the movements were in house when they were made by a different company, ValFleurier. At least they are both owned by Richemont. The really bad was Heuer, when they claimed a Seiko movement they were using was 100% in house!!!
Then there are the hidden ones, like Sicura calling themselves Breitling and putting Kelek movements in the watches, but at least Sicura did buy the Breitling name and the Kelek company.
They aren’t. They would be in-house if Tudor themselves put in the effort, but they instead outsourced their work to external talent hired under a new company. Tudor never had the know-how in movement manufacturing, always using ETA, and once ETA pulled out of the deal, they had to seek out someone else who would make their movements. It doesn’t matter if Kenissi is under the Tudor umbrella; it remains a separate company made of people who never were part of Tudor itself. If I hire a gardener and let him live in my house, I’m not doing my own gardening. He is still very much his own person and I cannot take credit for his work.
Ever noticed how in promotional material Tudor never uses the term in-house? They instead italicize the term “Manufacture” which people instantly associate with in-house production, while they actually mean it’s been commissioned to third party talent.
In house movement = makes me feel warm and fuzzy and slightly superior. 😂
Preach! I’ve always been so confused about how Tudor gets an “in-house” pass but, say, Longines doesn’t.
Wow, you taught me something today Britt. I own BB 7930R and I was under the incorrect assumption that the movement was truly “in house” I can’t say I’m not a little disappointed, I’m very disappointed. Keep up the great videos.
I always enjoy your content!
In manufacturing parlance, I believe that “Captive manufacturer” is the appropriate term for the movement maker that the primary company owns.
Captive movement vs in-house movement vs outsourced movement.
It’s a messy debate due to ambiguity. For me, what matters most about “in-house” isn’t a physical location of manufacture, but rather “is this movement unique to this model or brand?” If the answer is yes, the movement is unique to that brand, is made only for that brand, it doesn’t matter if it’s made under the same roof as where the CEO’s office is or a different building or even a partner company. Thats all that matters when we think “in-house” for any brand under the holy trinity tier. So if the movement in the Black Bay is a movement that only exists in a Tudor, that’s what matters as “in house”. Same with an Omega, that co-axial movement only exists in an Omega. Doesn’t matter what building it was made in or the name on the building as long as it’s a partner or sister company.
Well said about it all it is definitely marketing ploy with a lot of the brands to be honest I’m not bothered either way on the mind level brands as long as the are accurate and reliable that’s the main thing for me I love my Tudor Pelagos 42 with its “ in house movement” but I also love my Tudor Royal with it’s off the shelf movement what is accurate enough at the end of the day they are all mass produced watches in big factories by hundreds of people not one guy in a shed
Hey Britt, good video. A few comments to note. The only reason manufacturers are moving to "in-house" movements is because ETA decided to reduce the number of ébauche they supply the industry - that's it, there is no other reason and any manufacturer (or watch 'expert' for that matter) claiming otherwise are talking of their derriere. This was aeons ago and the Swiss government had to interfere instructing ETA to phase the reduction of the supply or the Swiss watch industry would have collapsed. Most "in-house" movements are ETA clones of movements which had their patents expired. Real watch collectors do not give a toss about "in-house" movements, they care about the history of the watch, rarity, a certain aspect, etc. The most expensive Rolex ever sold has an ETA movement (I beg your audience not to bore me with the Valjoux vs ETA malarkey). The quality of a movement has nothing to do with it being "In-house", in fact the best movements had been ébauche and contrary to what most 'experts' think, ETA makes top tier movements.
Apologies for the length of this, it's nice to see a real watch-related video rather than bullshit and clickbait.
I appreciate the presentation of two senses of "in-house." Much watch discourse seems to be fractured between romantic notions of crafting virtuosity and multi-national conglomerates simply trying to do 'good business' while pushing out marketing to please the romantics.
This is off topic, but where did you get your watch rolls? They look awesome.
They’re from Tellyourtime, a lovely guy called Vinnie! Highly recommended.
Interesting working in Clothing manufacturing, the term truly vertical production factory, to in theory control everything from Spinning, brushing, cotton, CMT of garments, finishing, Dye ...blah blah in source country is deemed very important by brands to insure standards and price points...the reality is often very different with offsite CMT for example when bulk orders are taken...honestly my watch collection only contains items that are important to me regardless of price, if I spent £25k on a fantastic looking and finished mechanical watch, to be told it’s not an in-house movement, but the best sourced movement for that watch...it would or should not matter..in my humble opinion....loving the content 😊
Grand seiko produces everything in their facilities, from the lubricants to the bracelets, the quartz grown in their factory.The most vertically integrated watchmaker perhaps. Tudor is in house in the same sense as Longines is.Swatch group manuftures some eta movements exclusively for Longines. Tudor and Longines are competing for the same space.
Great point!
Wrong. Tudor created Kenissi, staffs, manages, and runs them.
The company was founded and is owned by Tudor plus the factory is literally stuck to the Tudor factory. They are far more "in house" than omegas movements, that's not a dig at omega they are great movements but they are definitely pushing the definition of the word . An In house movement is only a good thing if the movement is good, it's not inherently a good or bad thing .
Great content. Moser does the exact same,thing with Precision Engineering. They supply parts to all sorts of Indies. This is also how they make Moser watches so affordable compared to say Holy Trinity counterparts. Keep up the amazing work 💪🏻🕰️
Love this and the topic.
I have watches that have in-house movements and watches that don't. I look at the price point (does the in-house movement justify the premium?). I aim to have a collection with different movements throughout. I don't want a collection of many watches with a ETA7750. Great movement but one or two examples will do- then find a watch powered by something else.
Excellent video and very diplomatically put. I'd have gone with something more along the lines of "in-house is expensive marketing BS."
You absolutely hit the nail on the head - economies of scale are great for the consumer; romantic "in-house" cottage industries are inefficient.
All that matters to me is parts availability - does the manufacturer curently supply parts to independent watchmakers or do they force you to use their service centres (at much higher cost)? How long do they guarantee parts supply in the future?
I'd always go for a movement produced in very high volumes so that even if parts aren't available, there will be plenty of movements to cannibalise in a few decades' time.
Some of the most exciting "in house", or shall we say "in group" stuff is being done by the much-despised ETA. The COSC certifiable variants of the Powermatic 80 variants with silicon balance spring are pretty groundbreaking in the sub-$1000 section.
as long as it's accurate enough to be used seriously, I don't even care if it's NH Seiko
The word “romantic” was used, and I think that’s a great point. In-house may or may not offer an advantage, but it feels more “romantic”
Great discussion. Personally this stuff doesn't matter to me too much
Tudors are excellent beater watches.
Maybe a video on who is truly in-house
When I think about in-house vs. third-party movements, I look at it this way: Boeing doesn't make their own engines. When they design an airliner, they call up Rolls Royce, Pratt & Whitney, or GE, because they have a proven product, and they are experts in what they do. I assume there is some customization involved. I see nothing wrong with a watch manufacturer putting a proven, third-party "engine" in their watch. I guess it depends on whether you want your watch to be fully unique, or whether reliability and the ability to have it serviced by someone other than the manufacturer matter more. It comes down to personal preference, and either way is fine.
The only truly in-house movements I am sure of is from Seiko, but ONLY for Seiko's made in Japan and Orient who do in-house movements for all their watches. Then there is Grand Seiko who literally make every single component in-house. So, it depends on what one means by in-house. As for in-house slightly more loosely, Tudor is indeed in-house given the realities of modern day manufacturing. Even Seiko using movements produced in Malaysia are made in Seiko owned factories so are still technically in-house, maybe still more in-house than Tudor. As long as it's a good movement I don't mind.
I would add Vostok and probably Raketa to the list as well.
@@vegandinner1731 Yes, and maybe Seagull too come to think of it. 👍
Thanks!
You keep getting better and better! Congrats… I hope your jaw is better
We understand
The big question in my house is whether my BB58 and my wife's J12 are both "in house" since Tudor and Chanel both own Kenissi.
Great job great video.
In the same building with one half painted a different color is in-house enough for me.
By this logic, ETA is an "in-house" movement manufacturer for the Swatch group brands. And ETA makes good movements no doubt! But I wouldn't consider them "in-house"
If the Queen of the RUclips watch world says it is an “in-house” movement, it simply it 🙏🙏🙏😘
Tudor movements are manufactured by Kenissi exclusively and not provided to other watch manufacturers. Kenissi makes movements for other clients and some components are shared just not whole movements. The only exception that I am aware of is the B01 movement provided by Breitling for the Tudor Black Bay
Brilliant, but a bit silly. Can we also talk about off the shelf movements. Don't they use shelfs at Rolex, Aegler probably had shelfs? Have they stored them in drawers, what is the best way to keep a movement before putting it in a watch?
Or must the manufacturer also own the shelf they use for the movement?
I truly believe “in-house” movement is now more of a flex & cornering the market for servicing amongst brands. That being said, customers have the right to have preferences but they do not have the right to downplay others based upon their own biases. 😊
With all of this being said, I've been considering purchasing a Black Bay 36 with the anthracite dial. It has the Tudor MT5400. There are similar BB 36s, minus the "jubilee" bracelet, chronometer certification, and "in-house" movement. Which one should I get? One of the things I like most about the 2023 model is the magnetic resistance because I work around fairly strong magnets as well as electronics. It's a huge selling point to me, but I don't know if the price difference is worth it.
To make things more complicated Lemania belongs to the Swatch Group! So in house is very much an illusion ?🤷🏻♂️
I own a couple of BB58s and I find them super robust and accurate. However, I did come across more than a few comments on YT that suggest Tudor are in the habit of swapping out the entire MT movement for a new one when a watch is sent in for service, rather than employ technicians to 'service ' the parts as required. No idea if this is true, but mass production economies of scale would suggest this might be financially prudent for Tudor. Any thoughts?
Rolex was not in house until 2004 when they bought the movement company Aegler .
My biggest want is simply transparency- call it a in house movement when not is the issue. Just say a modified xyz. State what was modified, new escapement ?, just custom finishing, state it
You forgot about La Joux-Perret. They are the Swiss counterpart owned by Citizen. Their G100 movements are beginning to find their way into many smaller, but slightly upscale watch brands like Farer. The Solargraph by Tag Hauer is also sporting a La Joux-Perret solar movement. Wonder where they got the technology for that??? I'm all for it. Sharing technology and producing movements at scale can only mean one thing to the buyer, and that's cheaper and more reliable movements. Okay, that's two things.
Tudor own Kenissi and made a smart move which enables them to sell to Tag and Breitling.
You’ve got its absolutely spot on , but another way of looking at this in terms of the prestigious and heritage of a watch maybe is just about in house now ? if people want to talk about prestigious of creating a movement then the irony of course Rolex come way down the line, they did not create their own movements in fact they didn’t create much of anything except the use of the word oyster, the question is how much difference does this really make in the modern area of the last 30 years? None really. what it does make is a point about cost of a watch when you take away gold diamonds platinum. Tudor had no real choice but to make their own movements otherwise they would have to use Rolex movements - and in the eyes of some people that would devalue Rolex.
To draw an analogy, we might be ok to get a Toyota Corolla that would share an engine with a Nissan Sentra but would be shocked to get a Mercedes sharing the same engine or a Ferrari sharing an engine with another maker.
My perspective is that in-house means it cost more to develop and manufacture, so it makes sense that the price tag is higher. But that doesn't mean it's actually a better watch, it's ust a more expensive watch. The same way PM isn't really any better than steel or titanium in terms of functionality, but we accept that it's priced higher because it costs more to source and to work with.
I know certain collectors only buy movements in-house. I only ask that a movement be accurate +/- 5 seconds per day, reliable, and affordable so the manufacturer can put the money into the dial. However, an expensive luxury watch over $10,000 should have an in-house movement.
Don’t know about movements but cases are being made in China. Swiss made?
Britt. Have heard the Kenissi movements are just swapped out at service time for a new/refurbed unit. So when you get your bb58 back it won’t have the same movement. Kinda destroys the Tudor value proposition for me.
Question why does it matter if its an in house movement? Shouldn’t it just matter if its a good movement? Being made in house could not necessarily mean a good movement. I personally would rather have out of house excellent movement than an average in house movement?
Tudor is the best !!!