THE LOST CITY OF ATLANTIS: What researchers get WRONG about Plato's famous legend
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2019
- One of the more popular theories about the true location of Atlantis is that it was in Mauretania at the site of the Richat Structure, known also as the Eye of the Sahara. In three videos on the subject, Jimmy Corsetti (Jimmy Bright) from the Bright Insight RUclips channel presented the evidence from Plato and archaeology that the remains of Atlantis are to be found there. In this video, Dr. Miano examines Bright’s argument to see if it holds up to scrutiny.
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We hope you enjoyed watching this #mythsofancienthistory episode about #atlantis. To watch part 2, click here: • ATLANTIS: The TRUTH ab...
References and recommended reading:
Bright Insight’s Atlantis videos:
• The Lost City of Atlan...
• The Lost City of Atlan...
• Ancient Map Shows The ...
George S. Alexander’s Website:
visitingatlantis.com/
On the Myths of Plato:
plato.stanford.edu/entries/pl...
philosophynow.org/issues/62/T...
An introduction to the Timaeus: • PLATO'S TIMAEUS & The ...
►Professor Miano's handy guide for learning, "How to Know Stuff," is available here:
www.amazon.com/How-Know-Stuff...
Follow Professor Miano on social media:
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You ivory tower types are all the same. You hypocritically make similar assumptions about others as you belittle them for....all in the name of "scientific method". Bright Insight channel has provided a very interesting candidate thus far for the "legendary" city of Atlantis. You attempt to pick apart a "legend" with inadequate tools. All Bright Insight has done is point to what has turned out to be the most interesting candidate for that legend having a basis in reality. So, if Bright Insight has foolishly polished a turd, what does that make you for buzzing around it?
This subject is 'beneath' someone of your caliber. You should climb back up the tower and help keep those mirror finished, checkerboard floors polished. And leave channels like 'Bright Insight' to doing what they do best, sharing "Insight".
I understand where you are coming from, and before making these videos I had to seriously consider whether I should do them. Most academics don't engage at all with alternative research, and even think scholars who do are wasting their time. But when academics don't engage, many alternative researchers complain that they are being ignored (people will be angry either way, I think). But my view is that new ideas should be engaged with, and that there should be open discussion. I feel a comradery with all lovers of ancient history, and I want to do what I can to encourage debate. But, of course, as an educator, when I see claims being made that are not factual, or even that I disagree with, I am going to say so. What's wrong with that? I do that in class too. I didn't attack Bright Insight personally and in fact made it clear in the video that I harbor no ill will toward him. As for an "ivory tower" that I am supposed to be living in, all I can say is I am a teacher who works at a state college and makes very little money, like most teachers. Judging the two of us by success, I think you would have to agree that Jimmy is a bigger success than me. So I don't think you can accuse me of punching down.
It did get cringy at the end. It was clear when he would venture further out of his element. Maybe he made the video in good faith. We all have bias. To much ridicule and I am smarter than you in the way he conveys his opinion. Thats typical of some source of low self esteem and the hope for external validation from others of the tribe that share his take on it.
@Nick NackThat's only because you're used to looking for "nick nacks". Not even remotely in the same league.
@Nick Nack LOL. He did a superb job of that himself. I'm not wasting any more keystrokes down the Troll Hole. I'll just leave it at "Fair enough". Like he did.
@Nick Nack You're being unfair nick. The guy's made a great case here. Don't be a jealous hater.
Personally, I tend to consider Critias claiming to have gotten his knowledge of Atlantis from Solon's notes as being similar in vein to J.R.R. Tolkien claiming he translated all of the Lord of the Rings & the Hobbit from "the Red Book of Westmarch". It's worldbuilding for the sake of the fiction, or as a novelty of immersion. And given the similar levels of intricate detail in _Critias_ to other of Plato's dialogues, such as _The Republic,_ I don't think it would be wrong to call Plato a fond worldbuilder.
That's an excellent, excellent point. It is world-building. My favorite authors write details into the stories that give them verisimilitude, which makes it work much better than if the stories were simpler. Of course, some authors go too far, like Robert Jordan--the detail in his crap is just filler, to make more money....it slows the story down badly.
Interesting idea. I always took it to be a literary device to emphasise that knowledge of this once great civilisation has been all but completely lost to time, that they have faded into obscurity to the extent that no one has ever heard of Atlantis, and now it just exists in the memory of some hundreds years old notes, translated from knowledge that the Egyptians supposedly possessed. It reminds me of the poem _Ozymandias._
I hope that 2500 years from now people think Tolkein's writings were real.
He did a really good job at verisimilitude but it's also one of the most profitable media franchises on the planet so
Wait! They’re not? 😭
They sort of were, since it was based on his experiences of WW1 and industrialization
@@arc46789 Interestingly, that myth has been so pervasive that even Tolkien himself wrote a lengthy forward in the Fellowship of the Ring refuting it & describing his opinions on allegory.
@@dr.zoidberg8666 Tolken's attitude on allegory is more complex than allegory bad and was more referring to allegories where there is 1 to 1 comparison like the lion Arslan from the Lion, The Witch and the children's book.
But then again, Tolken's works are for the most part not allegory but they certainly were inspired by his life.
Just wait, in a couple of thousand years people will be trying to find the rings of power and the remains of elves and dwarfes
*ancient aliens voice* what if.... the source of this story has...EXTRATERRESTRIAL origins...
In a couple thousand years there will be evidence of our civilization having been destroyed.. Just like geologists and historians have been starting to dig up in the last 2 decades. The doom of lost cities have been recorded in the Bible.
@@hunterstone2182 Ancient Alien theorists… would agree.
Wait, you guys aren't currently looking for rivendell? Crap, I might be early
I would also bring up that plato LOVED to invent weird allegorical stories. Its a really common part of his wtitings and it sounds like these guys have single mindedly focused on the parts of platos writings talking about atlantis, without engaging with the larger body of work that makes much of this stuff very clear. Atlantis is not any less outlandish than the allegory of the cave.
Charitable to assume that they have even bothered to read Plato
"Even several errors of fact that injure the theory beyond repair." That has to be the kindest takedown that I have ever heard. I must say, I found your channel through your collaboration with Atun-Shei. Though my formal education ended with a B.A. in History, I thoroughly enjoy learning from your videos and I appreciate what you're doing. Keep up with the great content!
Thanks, and welcome!
@@WorldofAntiquity
How can you claim world of antiquity when you know nothing about it
Atlantis was in Greece full stop
Proven in 1989 with irrefutable evidence
Where mr academics have you been hiding
@@ddpp1420 What evidence?
You know you've hit a nerve when no one is targeting your evidence for being bad, just your "tone." I honestly commend you for not losing your shit, because when I have researched other made up nonsense, I get mad myself. Especially when the person most likely knew they were lying, or, that they knew what they said wasn't on solid evidenciary footing. That is enraging, so I take your tone to be reserved, and matching the ridiculousness of Bright Insight's claims.
Excuse me, but I beg to differ. There is just too much in this video that is bably and quite assumptiously interpreted, such as the thinking of ancient greek people, that allegedly understood Plato's work of the Critias to be purely fiction and therefor had no need to do any sort of verification of such claims. Claims that in fact are tightly tied to the end of the Younger Dryas and all the new scientific evidence points towards castrophic conditions, such as massive floods (Pulse Water 1A & B f.e.), biomass burning (black mats, ice core sampling) and quite rapid extinction of the megafauna and other species (like humans), which are pointedly ignored in the corelation to Plato's 'fiction' in this video, although it being quite accurate in dating some of these events - like the swallowing of Atlantis by the sea - to the time when the Younger Dryas ended and sea levels rose extremely.
Obviously there is no connection there whatsoever. Plato just thought: what number sounds good? When could Atlantis have sunk beneath my made-up waves of cataclysms-never-to-have-been?
1000? No.
50 000? Preposterous...
Let's go with ... hmm.. 9000!
Pure coincidence, I am sure.
@@karlklahn28 Where are the animals, where are the plants. These people must've eaten?
So, 2500 years from now we’re going to have a bunch of Elvis worshiping conspiracy theorists looking for Captain American’s shield and Thor’s hammer, cool.
Plato uses mythology as a metaphor. He did over and over again. He put mythological motives in many characters' mouths. His obsession was politics: how should men be governed? What is the ideal political regime? Atlantis is given as an example.
Oups! You're saying that much yourself. I wrote this midway through your vid. hehehe
While the eye of the sahara actually being Atlantis is 100% up to debate, you can't "debunk" stuff by just saying "it's just a myth bro."
They said that about MANY things only to then find it. Lost City of Troy?
I've become a big fan of your channel recently, and the comments on this one are bizarre... It's like entering another world.
I watched the out-of-India one yesterday and wow the comments on that one... you'd think he insulted the entire nation in India 😯
Imagine if 2500 years from now, people were debating where Hogwarts was located. Well, Disneyland obviously, and roughly 9500 Bce.
No, imagine 2500 years from now and people were debating the existence of an island covered in a great concrete jungle guarded by a giant woman with a flaming torch. You people are the "idiots" Charlton Heston was yelling at in the ending of Planet of the Apes.
@@ryanparker4996 lol
@@robtierney5653 well, I cant say I shouldve been expecting more than that from a presentist. Go drink your corn syrup.
@@ryanparker4996 Presentist? How smurfy of you!
@@ryanparker4996 Make that 12,500 years from now, Ryan, and you nailed it! Greatest city on Earth when the atom was first split! Yeah, sure...you can't even show me some concrete.
I wonder how many of the hate comments actually watched the information being presented.
The same number who actually read Critias.
Probably non
I did. Cause i genuinely wanted to hear evidence to the contrary. Instead i walked away with the only logical conclusion i could gather: there is none. There is a perponderance of evidence that the Richat structure really was the place Plato was describing. This video did nothing to adequately refute any of it.
Indigenous people have often carried stories of natural disasters in their mythology that can be traced back thousands and yes even tens of thousands of years. It may be cloaked in language of morality, gods, or the great and unknowable past, etc etc, but that doesn't mean that the story came from nothing. Most stories are exaggerations of something that happened in some genuine capacity.
So many of the "alternative history" theories completely ignore basic geology. If the proponents actually considered this line of "evidence," many of these theories would never get off the launch pad.
Yeah, no-one would build a city around fresh-water spings even though literally every city is built around a source of water lmao thats crazy isnt it how stupid 🧐
Bright Insight's fanbase all rushing in to defend his pseudoscience lol. I stopped believing when Jimmy started describing Atlantis as a city with a million people and thousands of warships in 12000 BC in his part 2 video
Pseudoscience is about HOW science is done, not about WHAT is proposed.
I wonder when the people who search for Atlantis will begin searching for Lilliput and Oz?
Woah woah woah slow down! You're telling me that dwarfs aren't from Liliput? Impossibru!
I've been to Oz. Lovely place, but the drop bears are pure murder!
Yeah It must be so impossible for atlantis to ever of existed lol
Oh dear. "You ivory tower types". How dare you expect a little actual original research from the alt history folk. I bet you even expect them to have read a translation of Plato's original work. I bet you expect them to have read the rest of Plato's surviving works as well. Just in case there are other examples of him inventing an imagined scenario to explain his thesis.
How dare you expect them to think for themselves.
Especially as most believers seem to be young. I recall needing and wanting to believe in all this. Looking back I was missing believing in the possibilty that there were fairies and pixies. And a bit later that there was a god or even gods.
I find your patience and politeness in dealing with naysayers remarkably commendable. Excellent video, please keep up the good work.
That's all it takes for ppl to believe. Be patient. Many of these ancient stories are true. Including Atlantis.
Tell your expert Atlantis was in Greece
How come you got a heart and the person who discovered Atlantis in 1989 gets ignored
Real expert
What about my patients
1989 -2022
33 years
Do you think he can count
Brights intentional omission starting at 25:26 of the long list of platos details that Don't match at all tell you everything you need to know about his character.
After all those years, i found that the real Atlantis was the friends we made along the way .
Yep. That Plato was full of s**t, man.
I presume when a Greek reports Athens was at war with Atlantis 11,500 years ago (before present not b4 500s BCE) (~9,500 BCE) they thought the Athenians were Greek, that is, spoke Greek. Even IF Indo-European (IE) languages spread westward out of Anatolia with agriculture, the earliest evidence of agriculture (neolithic) Greece date to 6000 at most 7000 BCE - still 2500 years to late. If one subscribes to the Pontic Steppe/Kugan theory of ProtoIE, Pre/ProtoGreek speakers didn't arrive in the Athens area until even later. Certainly Greek speakers were in Greece sometime b4 1450 BCE (Linear B tabs).
I can accept snippets of truth about a war CA 1200 BCE in Western Anatolia involving Greeks could be passed down several hundred years (say 1200-700 or whenever the Iliad was written down) by Greek speaking bards. But facts surviving over 8000 years being passed down to Greeks in Greek simply isn't possible when Greek as a language didn't exist for 2500 or more likely 7500 years later.
Good point.
Even if Plato honestly believed in Atlantis, and told everything exactly as he learned it, that would not prove it true
It's also possible that 'Atlantis' was inspired by an island/civilization that actually existed, possibly the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians would certainly have been a good candidate for the inspiration for 'Atlantis'.
@tsaoc-tsae the real facts or your trolling 'facts'?
Lol, either the comment was deleted or he blocked me. Coward.
@tsaoc-tsae not at all. Actual research discredits this. Btw, people like Graham Hancock are not experts, they are pseudo-experts. They bend the facts to fit their views, credible historians and archaeologists bend their views to fit the facts. That is a huge distinction.
What is so funny is that nearly every person who fervently and adamantly pushes the Atlantis conspiracy never read Plato’s story. Come on don’t lie to yourselves
Yeah, most times I see people referring to the story they mistakenly say that "Plato claims to have known a man...", without seeming to realise that Plato has Critias telling the story.
The 'level of outrage of the ' Atlantis & ancient powertool crowd ' in the comment section is something to behold. 😅
they have nothing else to believe in. Atlantis & Conspiracy Theories are their religion....
You need to see this documentary called Stargate Atlantis. It has Jason Momoa.
How the guy from Bright Insight didn't bring up this documentary, is beyond me. Damned shame really.
I don't know which I enjoy more, your deft use of logic and knowledge to debunk pseudoscience claims or the wildly entertaining comments on your videos.
I shall share your videos with many of my well intentioned but misguided family members and friends who often spread the sensational without first checking the facts.
Good luck. You may find however that you can not reason with irrationality. For some their desire "to believe" what they do > their willingness to accede to new more credible evidence and logic. Having formed an "emotional attachment" to their assumptive beliefs they are unwilling/unable to let go as to admit they are wrong - and hence were duped - run afoul of = human nature.
@varyolla435 That is the pure definition of a liberal. Thank You
@@mistert7958actually it fits every conservative idea or group ever.
"It's just like the flu"
"Why am I dying of hypoxia"
"The ((())) rule the world"
* loses war because of their own inadequacies *
"It's my divine right to enslave these people"
* loses different war *
Ah I love history channel comments: claiming the big bad teacher is being mean to them because they gently pointed towards real life evidence instead of talking about the psychic aliens that totally beamed the real truthy truth into their brains, such a tough situation for them
The Troy rebuttal (*cough cough...Troy was real when people thought it wasn't) doesn't work. You know why? There are records of Ilium. Romans knew the city was Troy. Even Mehmet II visited the place after beating up Constantinople.
Look, people in history knew where the place was. To use this in order to justify dumb Atlantis talk is just plain stupid.
Troy existed much closer to the time of the documentation can be one reason more contemporaries knew of its existence and location. And still, how long was it considered a myth before modern archeology discovered it was real?
@@anchorsawaysailingmedia7785 How long was Troy considered a myth? The actual place? Never. Never ever. People confuse the idea of it being a myth because Schliemann was a business man first. He sold it as such for attention. He bought the hill because he was told the ruins would be there.
Schliemann, as a courtesy gets the honour of being called a pioneer, but was HARDLY what we all consider "modern archaeology".
@@anchorsawaysailingmedia7785 You see, the idea of Troy the actual city just being folklore or legend until it was "found" only started after it was dug up. The story by Homer of the Iliad and the Odyssey is legend. It has some historical backing according to descriptions of armor, weapons, things like that. The location and or the city itself, Troy, was always known. Proven and recorded throughout history.
Jim is among the worst of the grifters. Like Ben at UnchartedX, he often ignores existing evidence to invent a compelling mystery;
And always presented with a disclaimer similar to 'just providing the information', knowing their content will be amplified & defended by the conspiracy fans.
When did the merits of education and experience get pushed aside? They used to be virtues.
Could you please do a video on likely locations of Plato's cave?
Yes please!
Lol
I found one of his caves in my head when i left the Jehovah's witness cult that I was born into ... It took some refurbishing 😁
Also, funny AF comment man☺️☺️
So funny!
Gotta love that Ancient-Aliens/Atlantis crowd. Like children digging in their heels with "Santa _is_ real, so you're a liar!"
Soyjack Santa Denier Spotted.
The fact that sticks in my Craw is the Richart structure is 1200 ft above sea level. The sea at it's fullest would not rise to this level and I haven't seen any evidence that the West Africa plain has risen 1200 ft in the last 11000 years.
I have a series of lectures by an historian who claimed that the story of Atlantis was a disguised critique of the Athenian democracy and it's navy. If you replace the word Atlantis with Athens and Athens with the word Sparta it makes much more sense. The three circular harbors of Athens and it's reliance on a navy and Sparta's reliance on an army is convincing. The purpose of the "disguise" was to shield himself from the wrath of the population of the democratic Athenians who might exile him similar to fate of Thucydides or execution as they did to Socrates.
You mean to tell me Plato, of all people, spoke frequently in allegory?
Next you're going to tell me Plato's Cave isn't a real place.
maybe? @@paulisfat8077
Jimmy also said that the area must be excavated and researched before being completely dismissed. Yes, he advocated for the idea. But, as with Dwarka and Troy, which were legends, we shouldn't dismiss everything solely based on biases.
It has been researched already and we only found stone tools
@Tobias Huber Not very extensively. It's a very remote region. They basically just scouted out the area. Didn't even excavate or dig for much.
The stone tools would at least imply a settlement was there though. Bear in mind, no one is claiming this "Atlantis" was advanced or anything. Just that they existed in some capacity and maybe were "advanced" by pre-history standards.
@@urphakeandgey6308 Atlantis is based upon the cities oh Helike and Atalanta... not some random region in the sahara...
Troy is an entirely different case. Troy was claimed to have been on the coast of Anatolia--a landmass that not only existed, but indeed hosted many cities and city-states throughout history. The debate was whether or not we would ever find something that could literally be pointed to as Troy, not whether or not the city could have existed at all based on the Iliad.
Atlantis, by contrast, is claimed to have been a humongous continent off the coast of Gibraltar, something that we know for certain could not have existed. It's the difference between saying "Hey, your car was stolen, let's look at this parking lot where people take stolen cars to see if it's there" and "Hey, your car was stolen, let's check under the bed."
Think of all the people who have searched the world for Atlantis, locating it everywhere from Peru to Antarctica...yet nobody has ever sought after Lost Ancient Athens. Given that we know where existing Athens, and the Athens of Plato's time is, the search for the Lost Ancient Athens that fought the Atlanteans in a war, ought to be a much easier find. Have any of these "alternate historians" ever gone looking for Lost Ancient Athens?
Not that I know of.
THAT is a great point! Just imagine, before the deluge, the scattered islands of Greece currently in the Aegean Sea would have been connected by valleys or were at least much larger islands, much closer together. The Flood would have caused massive separation. All the valleys and coastlines would have been sunk, drowning the majority of the Athenians (Greeks).
Critias states:
“there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune” THE ANCIENT ATHENIANS “IN A BODY SANK INTO THE EARTH and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.”
When I first read that quote, I was thinking it referred to a conquering Athenian army on Atlantis itself. But is there justification for that? Does Plato state that the Athenians occupied Atlantis? Because if not, that quote could mean that not only did Atlantis disappear, but that PART OF GREECE DISAPPEARED TOO.
@@spiritualarchitect4276 Some people want to believe fanciful stories so much, they'll do all kinds of contortions to make it work.
@@WorldofAntiquity That is a lame excuse on your part for what can be clearly seen as too coincidental.
@@spiritualarchitect4276 You are not taking into account the genre of literature you are reading.
Thank you sir! I'm 62 and had seeds of Atlantis mystery planted in my mind when I was an early teen. Yours is the first and so far only fully informed, credible, compassionate, patient, detailed and documented refutation and clarification that I have heard. Your personal identification and subsequent respect for the young man, Alexander, is moving in it's depth of respect. You are an impressive educator and person. Thank you for your work.
_"Undersea Kingdom"_ (1936) = Lt. Crash Corrigan finds Atlantis in the Bermuda Triangle........
Moral of the story: Hollywood et al and the print science fiction genre have pushed stories about Atlantis and supposed "lost, advanced civilizations" = for a loooong time.
All the "alternative" schtick has been doing is to take advantage of that preexisting "customer base" by exploiting all that free publicity so as to monetize those for whom their imaginations have gotten the better of them in a largely entertainment-based culture.
Strange how some people get SUPER UPSET when you say the words “Atlantis didn’t exist”. In the book The Ousiders, Ponyboy & Johnny escape to the abandoned church in Windrixville… which also doesn’t exist. When I drove through Oklahoma I found that out the hard way. Yes, Tulsa exists but Windrixville doesn’t. Sometimes the truth can be painful, but you get over it.
Bright Insight: Plato was known for his brilliance of mind and strength of character and this is the only example at least that I'm aware of where he was ever accused of lying about something.
Plato: In my most famous text, I literally propose inventing new myths to improve social cohesion, an idea that scholars later dubbed "The Noble Lie" 🤷♂
Reality: even a genius can be wrong at times....... Thus Jimmie's argument about Plato represents stereotypical _"sophistry"_ and rhetorical argumentation. One of the brightest minds of the 20th Century was Albert Einstein. His musings about Physics literally altered the course of mankind.
Yet even he despite being "a genius" - and an upright moral character = still got some things wrong. We know they were wrong because the subsequent evidence showed them as such and he eventually admitted this because = he followed the evidence rather than "his belief" - as Jimmie et al routinely do.
They argue what they argue because they believe it rather than objectively weighing the evidence. This is what makes them wrong and the academic experts correct. Whether Plato was a moral person or a scoundrel does not alter the historical facts here. Thus Jimmie's "argument" is a stereotypical distraction.
13:12 "And this is the only example (at least that I'm aware of) where [Plato and Solon] are accused of lying about something" As someone who actually reads Plato, I had a good laugh when Bright Insight said this.
wasnt plato pretty much a fascist with his wacky political philosophy?
@@burritodog3634 it included slavery too!
@@burritodog3634- Not a fascist, but definitely authoritarian.
@@julietfischer5056 what do u mean
@@burritodog3634- Fascism is a modern authoritarian system. Authoritarian regimes come in a number of forms. They are not identical.
From Wikipedia- "Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to anarchism, democracy, liberalism, and Marxism, fascism is placed on the far right-wing within the traditional left-right spectrum."
"Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. A fascist state is led by a strong leader (such as a dictator) and a martial law government composed of the members of the governing fascist party to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views imperialism, political violence and war as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and economic interventionist policies. The extreme authoritarianism and nationalism of fascism often manifests a belief in racial purity or a master race, usually synthesized with some variant of racism or bigotry of a demonized other; the idea of racial purity has motivated fascist regimes to commit massacres, forced sterilizations, genocides, mass killings, or forced deportations against a perceived other."
---------------------------------
As for Plato, his ideas were just that. Which ones he believed, if any, I don't know.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_five_regimes
"The philosopher Plato discusses five types of regimes (Republic, Book VIII; Greek: πέντε πολιτεῖαι). They are aristocracy, timocracy, oligarchy, democracy, and tyranny. Plato also assigns a man to each of these regimes to illustrate what they stand for. The tyrannical man would represent tyranny, for example. These five regimes progressively degenerate starting with aristocracy at the top and tyranny at the bottom."
Before i watched this video i thought Atlantis existed and now i realize that it probably did not. I also have a new level of respect for actual academics who have put in untold amounts of time studying antiquity far more in depth than i ever could. Thank you for opening my eyes to some of these things.
Wait a minute... ATLANTIS IS JUST A MYTH?!?!? Boo to you sir and your facts, evidence, reasoning and critical thinking. If I ever get within one stadion of your ivory tower, watch out!! As for now, in the name of my ancient alien ancestors, I spit in your general direction. Ptuh!
All kidding aside, I just discovered your channel and have enjoyed what I have seen so far.
Its amazing that the Believers will continue to believe, no matter how many real facts and logic presented to them.
You tell me a tale/myth and i will tell you it happened before, why? We are 5th/ 6th generation here in earth, who knows how hi tech those ancients are 😜😜😜😜 these tales are within the 6th generations as we are today, and writings especially paper was expensive they coudnt waste paper for something which is not valuable to them..
I would like to see you cover the younger dryas impact hypothesis of which there is little to no evidence.
I have been in contact with physicist Mark Boslough about this topic for quite some time.
You may be familiar with his work as he is highly critical of this hypothesis.
He also happens to be an expert in the study of planetary impacts and global catastrophes.
I am sure the audience would like to watch you two discuss this topic.
If as a consequence of understanding the geophysical history of the planet one pursues inquiry of the YD hypothesis = great. As far as this topic however it really is irrelevant I'm afraid for a simple reason.
What if any evidence exists to tie said theory to known civilizations in history???? *THAT* is the only question that actually matters here. Unless someone can show whereby a civilization existed to be impacted upon by said impact hypothesis then the reality of YD being real or not is moot.
It would be like saying that the asteroid impacts on the Moon supposedly destroyed a civilization assumed to exist in the Near East and the only supposed "evidence" of this is = the impact craters.
Thus as we see we have not demonstrated the claimed civilization was real - nor have we shown it was affected by asteroid impacts on the Moon. All we have accomplished was to make unsubstantiated claims about an assumed construct and then pointed to something else while failing to provide credible linkage between the two. Enjoy your day.
I would personally like to announce here that I have discovered that not only did Middle Earth actually exist, but it lies in New Zealand. JUST LIKE TOLKIEN DESCRIBED. Yeah, no sh*t. I’ll give you a minute to take that one in. My video is currently in production, coming soon.
Hopefully, my video will come out before yours. New Zealand is completely mythical. It was made up by mutton and lamb marketing boards, so that they can have a seat in the United Nations. I can demonstrate that all those pictures of New Zealand fjords were actually taken in Canada or Norway. Anyone reading a description of New Zealand can easily tell that such a place is impossible. The accent attributed to its imaginary population is obviously made-up and absurd.
I kept reading these comments looking for punchlines but none of them ever had any.
I love the way you tell history like it is, not fluffing it up. You keep it real.
Thanks, Renee!
Great video. Not sure how you deal with your comments section lol. Seems to be a few people who are super upset that you only use evidence you can back up with records instead of oral history or ancient myths like some sort of bs history channel show that will not be named lol.
Nah, I mean, I’m not particularly sold on the idea of Atlantis, but it would have been nice to have seen any actual evidence against the possibility as opposed to him picking apart the smaller arguments. It wasn’t a great video at all. He spent a solid minute complaining about how Plato’s notes were not “detailed” enough. FFS, give me evidence as to why it could not be, not some stupid minor detail to bitch about lol. He spent a large amount of time saying that Bright was wrong because Bright was wrong, and just kept using circular reasoning. He essentially said that Plato could be lying, therefore it MUST be false. That’s just as bad as saying that Plato could be telling the truth so it MUST be true. There seemed to be more speculation in this video than Jimmy’s which must have been hard to do since we’re talking about a conspiracy theory lmao. It just seemed like a half assed attempt to complain and not really discuss anything in the videos
@@thechuckster9025 that's the problem with this way of presenting ideas. People should constructively and with good intentions sit around the table to share their ideas, sort where they differ and where they agree!
I really hated how he just basically responded to a youtuber as if this youtuber invented this idea.
He just takes down someone's weak interpretation of the issue instead of just making his own video about the structure and what can be learned from it.
@@andrewprahst2529 he didn’t though? He made that vary clear multiple times
@@thechuckster9025 So soryy that he tackled one thing in his video. Sooo sorry that the video does exactly what is intended.
I am sure the Egyptians have many inscriptions that describe Athens as the best governed in the world and that Egypt learned a lot from them. That doesn't sound like something an Athenian would make up at all.
It's a NATURAL formation that began 100 million years ago, when Africa and South America began splitting apart. A huge dome formed from underlying flat formations, when a hot spot formed in the mantle.
Erosion of the dome formed the concentric circles that we see now. It's easy to understand after you take a few University level geology classes.
No! Uh, Atlantis! Ivory Towers! Conspiracy theories! Ad hominem!
There are literally no good counterarguments.
@@linstar9172 Nothing wrong with believing in fairy tales like Atlantis, Flat Earth, visiting Aliens, Election fraud, JFK, and world domination by the jews.
Whatever makes people happy.
@@billkallas1762 At least two of those aren't "fairy tales."
@@Epiousios18 HaHaHaHahaHa Flat Earth and JFK??
@@billkallas1762 Flat Earth? Lol, obviously not.
JFK isn’t a fairy tale I’d say (parts of it are, but it isn’t completely unfounded)
At 13:40 plus Bright uses the word lie a lot. Plato wasnt 'lying' any more than, say, Agatha Chtistie, or Shakespeare or Maya Angelou are lying when they wrote their plays and novels. Plus Plato did use invented stories to exemplify his teachings and ideas. Eg the one about the people chained in a dark cave facing a wall on which they saw only the flickering shadows cast by the fires behind them. Read it and see.
It is classic behavioral conditioning ala Watson. Jimmie repetitively accuses others of supposedly lying - ergo he must therefore being the one who supposedly is telling the truth = so as to break his listeners' reliance upon more credible sources of information. Then he can feed them whatever BS he wants to keep them engaged and hence allow him to monetize upon their presence.
p.s. - you coincidentally see the same paradigm in so-called "conservative news" - an oxymoron by the way - as well. There is a major outlet who constantly beats its' drum about supposedly being "Fair & Balanced" when it is actually hopelessly biased and conflicted. That way their viewers become inured and hence conditioned to only listen to them and never change the channel. It is stereotypical Pavlovian conditioning.
@@varyolla435 explains why Bright Insight's fans are the way they are. As well as why there's a strong overlap with Joe Rogan's fanbase.
People don't seem to understand the concept of Allegory.
The "kernel of truth" in the Atlantis myth is the late bronze age collapse in 1189 BC, some 800 years before Plato wrote about it. It's not difficult to imagine the survivors, trying to eke out a living against those great, cyclopean walls, would have imagined a time when giants walked the Earth. They had even lost the ability to write for a few hundred years, and who else could have built those gigantic ruins if not a race of giants? Or the very gods themselves?
{:-:-:}
@Jeff Robinson
*_"Wrong, Atlantis had nothing to do with that!"_*
And the Thera eruption was some 400 years before the Late Bronze Age collapse, but did not cause it. It did not even destroy the Minoans or Phoenicians, but the Late Bronze Age collapse did. So what's your point?
Plato knew NOTHING about Atlantis. There was no Athens or even Greeks in 9000 BC for Atlantis to be at war with. It was pure invention for the sake of making a political and philosophical point. Like a parable.
{:-:-:}
@Jeff Robinson
*_"Thera had nothing to do with Atlantis"_*
That's what I said. Thera did not cause the Late Bronze Age collapse and the Late Bronze Age collapse had nothing to do with Atlantis because Atlantis did not exist.
But "the kernel of truth" behind the stories of a lost civilisation dates to Plato some 800 years after the Late Bronze Age collapse, where every civilisation collapsed into a Dark Age, except Egypt.
You need to learn to read and comprehend more clearly. And maybe you should watch a few of Eric Cline's lectures on RUclips.
{:-:-:}
@Jeff Robinson
*_"Fucking hell"_*
Oh, I say!
{:o:O:}
Atlantis was beyond the pillars of Hercules which is the atlantic ocean lol
Top quality debunkery! Subscribed
For some reason that bit at around the 13:45 mark has become a bit of a running joke between me and some of my friends. We'll be watching a movie, then when something fantastical happens we'll be like "Is this movie LYING to me?"
I just think it's so funny 😅
There are so many people that claim Atlantis is The Eye of the Sahara, but none of them have actually taken any action to start digging there for evidence.
If it wasn´t an overregulated, terrorist infected african state, more researchers would find their way...
Just wanted to say I really appreciate your videos and the time and energy to engage with the alternative history community. It's refreshing to see academics engaging with an alternative community that is often ignored. It's also refreshing to see someone who has a keen grasp of critical thinking concepts, but with an empathetic and charming approach
Ah yes the lost city of Atlantis. The Greeks never thought to look between the cushions of the sofa.
This would be a very easy theory to prove or disprove. If the Eye of Africa was Atlantis and it was flooded, there should be a large number of ancient anchors around every ridge channel that would have been ripped off and buried along with heavy cargo. A geological study could be done to give the most likely path of the flood waters and maybe even a likely area for deposits. Looking at it I have my guesses where those might be but I’m no expert. If no anchors can be found then no Atlantis! If found then maybe there is something more to be explained.
Floods of this magnitude deposit mud to such great depths and scour landscapes such that what you propose would be a daunting task to be sure. Not impossible, but requiring considerable expense and determination.
It looks promising that the foundations of ancient forts are already being found on some areas of the rings...
people can be so sad when a myth is proven a myth. Children mentally.
@Taomantom - Adults feel sad, too. But grown-ups and the thoughtful can come to accept evidence.
Jimmy is a christian fundementalist so that tracks.
What gets me is that people will look at every detail in Plato’s story to find the “true meaning” and location for Atlantis….except for what Plato actually said about the location or the entire context of the story that is provided in and by the story itself.
All of it is literally true. Except the location and capabilities of this supposed place.
Another thing researchers get wrong about Plato's famous legend is that Plato himself was a philosopher, not an historian. Herodotus holds that distinction of historian, but even he wasn't always right. By today's standards, Herodotus was more like the world's first blogger in blending myths, history, geography, anecdotes, hyperbole, etc. It's akin to that cutaway gag in Family Guy where Peter Griffin thinks there's a message in his Alphabets cereal saying, "Oooooo" when Brian Griffin correctly points out that those are Cheerios.
I love this channel because not only do I get to hear about the out-there hypotheses of alternate history, but then you completely break down what their saying while providing the information as its currently understood. You always provide evidence, a detailed explaination of context as well as the fallacies others may fall into; and are always willing to give have a good faith arguement. Kudos for your patience and willingness to engage with these subjects. My brother has been, gosh I dont wanna say foolish but he is my brother 😒... Hes been duped by videos literally about this subject and the "High Technology" stuff too, and sending this over to him has helped him open his eyes and realize history can be interesting enough without having to lie and misinform.
Edit: I read maybe two or three of the comments here and I just, oof bad idea. Thank you for having so much patience to do this much needed work.
Thank you for breaking this down. I have seen someone explain why the Atlantis story was an allegory, just academics saying "It's obviously made up" and then moving on. I wish more institutional sources, like yourself, would extend an olive branch and try to walk "alternative theorist" through why their arguements are weak.
I listen to this video probably once a month to remind me that proof and logic, and research are still alive in the world.
Great video!
There were also parodies of Atlantis contemporary to Plato. That bit alone should be enough to know it's fictional.
The dialogues should also be placed in the context of his dialogues as a whole, especially The Republic. Not only was Athens of 9000 years ago modeled on Plato's just republic, but Atlantis is like a hyperbolized version of the Athenian Empire. It should also be noted that writing didn't exist 8000 years before Solon, and neither did Athens or Sais, not even close. The people who believe in Atlantis are going off VERY limited knowledge of Plato and history, and generally are prone to believing in myths and conspiracy theories and assessing based on confirmation bias rather than critical thought.
Oh, I'll add, in Plato's writing, the deluges apparently kept destroying all evidence of writing and settlement. Of course, we know this didn't happen. It's a literary device utilized by Plato. Plato was a smart guy. Read The Republic, he knows how to use literary devices and structure.
@@rossnolan7283 But there isn’t an absence of evidence. We have plenty of evidence of what was going on around that time: structures, weapons, tools, art, food and other remains that directly contradict the Atlantis story in Plato’s dialogues.
There was no Adam and Eve, it was a myth to explain where people came from because the Jewish people didn’t know, so they believed the Jewish God created a man and then a woman from the rib of a man. Genesis and the Bible contradict the Atlantis story as well - both stories are disproven by archaeological and paleontological evidence and modern science which has observed evolution in via experimentation and through the fossil record.
I’m not sure which aboriginal legends you’re talking about which are relevant to Atlantis-volcanoes and floods aren’t exactly a rare event, we’ve had many around the world just in the past few years. I mentioned this earlier, confirmation bias - this is a good example - just because some culture at some random part of the world has a legend about a natural disaster is not evidence of Atlantis. I assume you mean by “aboriginals” the indigenous people of Australia/New Zealand, an area close to the ring of fire and volcanos such as Krakatoa. The evidence suggests a more local event, it’s unlikely they’d have concern of some ocean their ancestors never went to. We do have evidence of giant volcanic eruptions, floods, and tsunamis that are much closer to them geographically and historically. It’s unlikely they’d ignore all those and instead believe in something none of their ancestors ever witnessed.
They arent conspiracy theories. Just theories. Just because you dont believe it doesnt make the people who do wrong.
@@rossnolan7283 I haven't disagreed that Genesis reads like a story from thousands of years ago. What I'm saying is that if it were a true story, then there are many huge contradictions between it and the Atlantis story. It would be evidence against Atlantis.
The Atlantis story says they were written down 8000 years before Solon in Sais (8600 BC) which survived the deluges because of its proximity to the Nile. The story also says the city was particularly interested in Athens of 9000 years ago because Neith and Athena are the same goddess. The fact that Egyptian written language emerged 2100 years before Solon, not 8000+ years before solon is an irreconcilable contradiction between the Platonic dialogues and what archaeology and history shows us about Egypt and writing. But that's just one, there are many other contradictions.
I'm not sure the relevance of Maori or Aboriginal stories about meteorite craters or other natural disasters. Nor does a culture knowing about natural disasters really impress me. Natural disasters are known to every culture history has ever recorded, it's not impressive that myths revolving about ancient giant natural disasters occur - meteors do hit the earth every day, in fact, about 17 meteors hit the earth each day - cosmosmagazine.com/space/astronomy/earth-hit-by-17-meteors-a-day/
But the reason I'm not seeing relevance is because these stories appear to be about Australia and New Zealand, they have nothing to do with Atlantis.
@@dragor6527 I'm not saying other people are wrong just because I don't believe it. I'm saying people who believe Atlantis is historical fact are wrong because the evidence shows they're wrong.
You definiteley deserve much more views and subscribers with such high quality work. Especially if it's done by a proper historian. Thanks again for your work.
Thank you. It's much appreciated.
Atlantis is next door to my building here in Toronto. The sign clearly designates it as Atlantis. It is a real estate firm. A quick search on Google Earth will zoom into it. Problem solved. The Richat structure is an eroded geological dome, easily understood by geologists. There's nothing about it that even remotely resembles Plato's story, other than it being round. I'm sticking with the one next door to me.
Still in business, millenia later!
That was informative thanks. I've been fascinated with this. Personally, I find the Richat Structure to be a one of a kind geological structure on the planet which makes me suspicious of it being natural. But the lack of direct evidence linking it to Atlantis makes it hard to argue....have to give it to Plato....whether invented or not....was a great story. Maybe I should read some of his stuff.
@WorldofAntinquity Your videos are always so insightful and well-done! Bravo!
What I think would be interesting would be a video(not too long) where you sit down with a psychologist and go over why it is that so many people lean towards these "secrets" and weird theories and what not instead of being interested in truth. You see it in religions too, people start off with the intention of truth and next thing you know they are hiding evidence to defend their beliefs. There has to be something going on with people that have this tendency
Thats fuckin stupid. So you believe that people have it all figured out? Why wouldnt people be curious of the unknown? Its a whole geological structure in the shape of an eye in the middle of the Sahara, why wouldnt people have questions about where it came from
@@nelsonmyrick1974 I am all for questioning everything. I have found however with a great deal of people interested in the "secrets" and who tow the line of atlantis and and all these "fun" theories, they do not question there own ideas. For example ancient aliens theorists who say is it possible extra terrestrials came down and use advanced tech to build the pyramids, yes!!! Then ask them about common mainstream archeology theories and suddenly there open questioning becomes, "That's preposterous, it doesnt explain X or Y etc.
Does your questioning go both ways, or have you made up your mind its atlantis and think mainstream debunkers have nothing valid to contribute?
@tsaoc-tsae I am a lost cause but not for reasons you think. Funny that you (I assume) fancy yourself a critical thinker and yet a comment about critical thinking gets your snowflake self triggered. 🙃
I tease....
What do you think? Atlantis is a place with lasers weapons and crystal power plants? What's wrong with questioning everything including things you hope are true? Let's be honest you were probably watching videos about atlantis, got a boner and then a critical video(this one) came up and you went in ready to fight it. You weren't honestly open minded to any of the skeptical ideas before you even heard them were you?
Not sure who Jimmy is, I didn't say anything about him deleting comments. Not sure what you're talking about there.
Hi David! I found my way here from Atun-shei and I really dig your videos. You got a new subscriber
Awesome, thank you, and welcome!
same!!
I should add that your analysis of the evidence is amongst the best I’ve heard on any subject on RUclips. Many thanks.
It's amazing that Plato's thought experiments to show off the superiority of the Greek system have caused such a mess!
Wow this topic really brings out the screwballs, crackpots and whackaloons doesn't it?
I get some wild comments on here!
Has anyone looked at the Geology? All these comments. All plato knew about was the Greek world of Athens and that was very small. he did not know what was outside of his world other than Egypt. Do you think he knew of North America or of plate-tectonics. Do you think he knew of Australia? China? Japan? South America? What was his world? Maybe his story was about the Minoans but he just embellished. Hubris. They lived a life of luxury and a volcano took them out. Understanding geology is very important. All his numbers do not fit. I think the Richat is an impact crater that has been eroded. It has been studied.
Yes.
In respect of it being "a spectacular example of a magmatic concentric alkaline complex", the International Union of Geological Sciences (IUGS) included the Richat Structure in its assemblage of 100 geological heritage sites around the world, in October 2022.
The story, all names, characters, and incidents portrayed in this production are fictitious. No identification with actual persons (living or deceased), places, buildings, and products is intended or should be inferred.
- foreword, Solon, My Detailed Notes.
Socrates also appears in the great real-life factual documentary, Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure.
The Richat Structure isn't COMPLETLY empty right? There's outlines of structures that were once there in satellite images, one dude actually visited the site and uploaded some videos of it, shoutout to him for going all the way out there!!
I was always curious but some of the comments show people actually religiously believe atlantis...wow!
To be fair, not nearly as religiously as many believe in the moldy swiss cheese that is "evolution".
Troy was also just a myth...but later they found solid evidence of its existence...
@@kristianehussenmaratas6931 You mean the city that wasn't even known as Troy? 😊
@@theresiakreutzer presumably it is based on the poems of Homer and the actual location of the old city that was found with a carbon dating close to that of Homer's Iliad.
@@techstuf4637 Well how do explain melanin skinned people in hot places and light skinned hairy people in cold places then?
forms of writing have been discovered dating earlier than the sumerian cuneiform, which for a good while was considered the oldest written language on Earth. complex settlements were discovered to be dating at 7-8000 BCE, with some saying it's up to 10000 BCE. Göbleki Tepe shows layers of constructions... the deeper ones being surprisingly more elaborate than the earlier versions, as if the methods were being forgotten with time. and then there is the Sleeping Prophet, Edgar Cayce, who made predictions with 85% accuracy without ever asking for any money. surely such a charlatan would have made a fortune at this, lots of ppl would happily believe anything you tell them. among his visions, he mentioned Atlantis, made the connection to Egypt.
Now... about the myth of Atlantis, and my take on it: i think 99.98% is just fiction. that is not to say it started out of nothing. some things are too accurate(for the time it was written) and too unlikely for Plato to have know of or even seen with his own eyes. but... since we've recently discovered that Africa has indeed been a lush paradise up until 5000 BCE or so, i'm seeing the theory that the Sphynx is much older than modern day historians generally agree, because i am much more willing to accept the fact that the signs of erosion it has up to its neck show it under water. and it has been discovered that the area was under the Nile around 9000 BCE. so the Sphynx is even older. and the egyptians(the ones we know of) did not build it. so who did?
Atlantis did not fight Athens. that is one of the many many many parts of absolute fiction in the myth. just as the greeks did not attack Troy. well... Troy has been discovered though. not THE Troy as depicted for the most part, but A Troy that is placed and fortified and suffered many sieges and was next to the shores and an important trade hub... till the waters receded and made the city pointless. so a truth in all the lie that is the Trojan War does exist. Atlantis must definitely be similar.
In the context of Platon's dialogues, Plato role is supposed/conceited to be present, listing and writing everything down. Hence he never takes part in the discussions, though Socrates once addresses him in the Apology.
To build on the professor's Marvel analogy: imagine 2,400 years from now someone watching Captain America and using it as evidence that at some point in the past humans had developed incredible augmentation chemistry and thinking Steve Rogers was definitely a real person because why would they include so many details in the film if it wasn't real.
I really have to thank the professor on this one because at no point in my general education did anyone address that Plato's writings weren't meant to be taken at face value (something it seems a lot of my fellow Americans also did not experience), they were always discussed as if they were transcripts of Socrates' dialogues, with no mention of what someone reading them all the way back in the 3rd century BCE would have been thinking about.
Given history and assuming all other media was destroyed and there was no information on Hollywood it would be more reasonable to believe that we beloved that captain America was true based on any number of ridiculous beliefs held by huge amounts of people.
Imagine alternate history people getting their hands on incomplete Borges tales 500 years from now and believing that his writings are scientific proof of the existence of Tlön.
Great video! Thank you for addressing this!
I can't believe some of the comments lol Do not feel discouraged by the comments, this is great content!
I like Aesop. He used fables as a mechanism to teach others about logic and morality. This must then be considered in the context that back then most were illiterate and hence storytelling was the most common way of passing on information and teaching others.
Moral of the story: so metaphors and allegories as a mechanism for expressing moral lessons might be a better way to view Plato's accounting of Atlantis = vis a vis referring to the Minoans.
Then as now wealth breeds power -----> power breeds resentment. So the Minoans were a regional power compared to the Greeks. Their civilization was brought low by the Thera eruption. Volcanism = "divine activity" = "divine retribution" for "moral excesses". This makes the Atlantis story a "cautionary tale" to be taught to others - not unlike Aesop used - rather than literal historical truth.
Historians of that period related what they saw/lived through - OR - what was related to them by others. Herodotus wrote of many things. Some turned out to be corroborated by subsequent evidence - while some of what he related is viewed as mythological............... = so it is here. 🤔
Plato just trolling these guys hard after so many years
Plato used Socrates as a Character to weigh new ideas against. Being the most familiar with Socrates and the awareness of how Socrates met his end, Plato used the teachings of his master to expose not only the Man's virtues but also the vices in his process that could lead to misunderstanding. More than likely, Plato found an old unfinished poem about a visit to Egypt to build his idea upon and used his favorite trope to tell the story, "What did the old sage learn about...?" Plato was living IN Socrates shadow, quite literally most of the time, so to be taken seriously in his contemporary time he needed to exploit his greatest trait in the eyes of the ignorant; his closeness to Socrates. I have looked at this exact fact for a very long time. I feel confident that the Atlantis Story has ancient origins, but not as a story of truth but as a story or myth rooted in the memories of surviving the cataclysms of the violent earth we evolved on. We constantly overlook the transition from Ancestor Worship to Polytheism to Monotheism and what that really means, revering the Ancestors that saw us through the last great Cataclysm (Insert flood, volcano, or meteor here as applicable for your society) would be the first "Religions" eventually only your tribe cares who your ancestors are and so when you talk to others about your great people they soon become a group of gods that shaped a wonderful life of far less struggle than they have today. Once you have a pantheon you cannot get rid of them without having another cataclysm, this one far less troublesome but just scary enough to make people more superstitious. This lays the groundwork for turning superstition into a personal relationship with the gods despite all reason. I believe Plato actually saw this coming with the Zoroastrians and other Groups emerging, I also believe he had a major fear of Monotheism once it had been manipulated by men of low Ethic. These works were an attempt by Plato to enamor mankind with their own Potential rooted in the truth he knew to be certain, that mankind has been around a VERY long time and has survived a great deal to get where they were. Essentially, Socrates and Plato were trying to make a democratic world without religion...too bad Aristotle didn't fully get the message and fed Alexander into his own narcissism creating a living god complex in a man capable of conquering the world; that son of bitch inspired EVERYTHING that came after.
Interesting..I don't know alot about history from that time and regions, but what you said about Alexander has ne interested. I never had an interest in ancient history until a near death experience 3 years ago.
@@tristarperfecta1061 They are tough reads, Plato and Aristotle, you don't need to read "Politics" or "Ethics" word for word but it is a good idea to have them around for reference. I read both in a week back in 1998 for a Lit Paper, it may have given me ADD...
@@tristarperfecta1061 also, without Alexander there is no Holy Roman Empire. ATG set the stage and built the infrastructure that made the early Roman Conquest Possible and emptied the coffers of the Greeks of any hope of defending against that while he was at it. What's even worse is that EVERY Caesar took the mantle eventually wanted to be Alexander, well except Nero, Nero just wanted to watch it all burn. Anyway, Rome fizzles out early and the entire region stabilizes, no Christianity, no Islam, but we would probably have Zoroastrianism and Sumerian Pantheons would have survived much longer. Trade Culture probably would have taken over instead of abject Feudalism...though Europe wouldn't have survived the Plague without the Church if it would have even happened then, plus we probably would still be in steam power and MAYBE electricity. One thing greed is good for is making poor people make stuff for you, and not just junk either, greed wants the newest greatest thing especially if it can kill someone.
Wow!! The comments are a scream. First the stream of tone trolling, then the missing the point and of course the utter drivel, strawmen etc., etc.
We get drivel about Dr. Miano claiming "All is known", (In Archeology / History), - total strawman and utter nonsense If Dr. Miano thinks that why is he an Archeologist?. Also hilarious is repeats of "Thats just your opinion man!". Well not entirely After all Dr. Miano did mention Plato's descriptions of what Athens was like c. 9000 years before him and Dr. Miano mentioned that there was no evidence that the Athens Plato described, or even it appears any settlement, existed then. And of course we get dull pontifications from people whoose knowledge of the pertinent subjects could be put on the head of a pin.
All in all a very interesting display of Alternadoxy.
Under 30? You probably believe in Atlantis.
Over 30? Can't trust you not to try and sell the idea that Atlantis exists to the kids. :)
But, but, but... Graeme Hancock, Rogan.... Rogan never gets tricked by guests and is always right, I'm going to rewatch some Schwab comedy
Jesus dude, you ain't wrong, the JRE podcast is a dog whistle for middle class retards.
To be fair, I did use to find Graham Hancock convincing. When I was 12.
@@karsten11553 We all like a good crackpot theory. I still listen to alternate history podcasts when I'm sewing, I like the fantastical elements, I also listen to elder Scrolls lore and cosmic horror. They're all in the same category to me.
Oh no....Joe Rogain. The boy has no shame, he'll let any kook on his show, then either really believe them, or at least pretend to. His show is one of the major sources of nonsense.
@@TheEudaemonicPlague You mean Manson wasn't really a CIA asset?
In my language, there's a word which is very close with the name of this legendary city, it's: TIMTLANT, which means the buried one.
The thing that makes me wonder why people insist upon believing Atlantis was real, is the fact that what Plato wrote was an allegory on the topic of the hubris of nations. Fiction.Why, then, are people thinking it's real? Until they can explain why a fictional place is real, nothing else matters.
maybe they are too blinded by their hubris to think people of the past were capable of making up fiction to serve as allegory
" Edgar Cayce (/ˈkeɪsiː/; 18 March 1877 - 3 January 1945) was an American clairvoyant who claimed to channel his higher self while in a trance-like state.[1] His words were recorded by his friend, Al Layne; his wife, Gertrude Evans, and later by his secretary, Gladys Davis Turner. During the sessions, Cayce would answer questions on a variety of subjects such as healing, reincarnation, dreams, the afterlife, past lives, nutrition, Atlantis, and future events. Cayce, a devout Christian and Sunday-school teacher, said that his readings came from his subconscious mind exploring the dream realm, where he said all minds were timelessly connected. " He states that he was Asule who lived in Atlantis. He left Atlantis taking many books of advanced knowledge with him to Egypt. In Egypt he was Ra-Ta the high priest and supervised the construction of the great pyramid of Giza. Ra-Ta knew the layout of the pyramid and the Egyptians cut the blocks and moved them into position. I don't think that Graham Hancock ever mentions Edgar Cayce. But they each confirm each other's "stories". Wild eh? Impossible? Our world is far more bizarre and complex than we can understand.
I feel I am this close -->
I just wish Atlantis fans actually read what Plato said.
Thank you for presenting counter arguments because that is what moves science forward....debate. Im reading alot in the comment section about Plato and how He couldnt have been speaking historically because he was a philosopher not a historian...and perhaps so. But i find all of this interesting and would like to interject that Heinrich Schleman (spelling?) Also used a book of "myth" to find Troy.....also a legend that could not have really existed. I am not too quick to dismiss atlantis just yet.
I enjoy the myth of Atlantis and its depictions in fiction and I'm annoyed by people who think it was a real place, so I'm really enjoying debunking videos like this. And I always learn something new too, such as that a stadium wasn't a precise measurement, which makes sense. One thing I want to mention (I think I read/heard it somewhere before) is that the size of Africa and Asia combined probably isn't what we imagine now, but rather just the parts of Africa and Asia that were commonly known back then, which would make it much smaller - and probably easier to imagine as an island :D
" Edgar Cayce (/ˈkeɪsiː/; 18 March 1877 - 3 January 1945) was an American clairvoyant who claimed to channel his higher self while in a trance-like state.[1] His words were recorded by his friend, Al Layne; his wife, Gertrude Evans, and later by his secretary, Gladys Davis Turner. During the sessions, Cayce would answer questions on a variety of subjects such as healing, reincarnation, dreams, the afterlife, past lives, nutrition, Atlantis, and future events. Cayce, a devout Christian and Sunday-school teacher, said that his readings came from his subconscious mind exploring the dream realm, where he said all minds were timelessly connected. " He states that he was Asule who lived in Atlantis. He left Atlantis taking many books of advanced knowledge with him to Egypt. In Egypt he was Ra-Ta the high priest and supervised the construction of the great pyramid of Giza. Ra-Ta knew the layout of the pyramid and the Egyptians cut the blocks and moved them into position. I don't think that Graham Hancock ever mentions Edgar Cayce. But they each confirm each other's "stories". Wild eh? Impossible? Our world is far more bizarre and complex than we can understand.
@@sparky7915 Cool spam you copy paste under every comment, what if you watched the actual video instead? A "claivoyant", how convenient, zero proof of his claims then. I write stories, I came up with a lot of stuff about Atlantis (though I don't claim any of it is real) and anyone else can come up with their own things because of this little thing called imagination. That's why proof is necessary.
Plato literalism is even sillier than Biblical literalism - and without even the allegation of divine authorship to back it up. In his philosophical works Plato wrote allegories, thought experiments. No one reading them was expected to believe that any of it actually occurred. Does anyone think his story of the Ring of Gyges meant that someone in the ancient world actually had a magical invisibility ring? And even hardcore Biblical literalists don't believe that Jesus' parables described actual events, they were obviously fables he made up to illustrate a point. Just as Plato did.
Authors using a figure named Jesus put words in the mouth of this artifical creation. We have no idea what a dead preacher who got executed as rebel against Rome ever thought as he wrote nothing down. What we see here is a crystallation spot like a Robin Hood or other character who turned into total fiction and get mixed up with other fictional character and their deeds.
Wouldn't it be helpful if we knew all of Plato's work in order to be able to judge him as a writer? However, since it is not clear what was written by him, an assessment of his work as a whole is pure speculation. The fact that you and the maker of this video have embarked on this path does not exactly show great wisdom. What is more, over time we have lost all the great libraries of antiquity and the knowledge of the Byzantines, who were the bridge to antiquity, has also been buried, thanks to the Muslims. How can one come to such closed analysis results based on the meager data situation? Touch thin ice!
And I can only reiterate it... Our paleontologists would dance for joy if they dug up just 1% of all dinosaurs that ever existed. They are aware that their work is far less than patchwork. Why are the historians and archaeologists so much more convinced of themselves...? And while we're at it... What about the Cartouche of King Cheops, in the Great Pyramid, and the Phaistos Disc? Are they really authentic? When will they finally be examined? There are still a few answers to come from the professional researchers...
I found your channel through Mr. Beat
Im happy I found your channel and I hope others are fortunate enough also
Welcome!
My biggest disagreement with your argument here is that people in a primarily oral culture won't be able to give a relatively good account of something they have studied years later.
Like we know oral chroniclers can be fn' good, we see this with griots in Africa and chroniclers in Melanesia and Australia, the Melanesian ones not even being a specific trained out caste distinct from the general population.
Greek actors also memorized book sized poems and plays. And I myself can well remember a book that I good great interest in when I was younger, so for those earlier people in an oral system, without constant memory aides and more would be so much better placed to remember such.
So I would say if the story about Critas was true, it is very likely that he remembered what he said he did.
*My biggest disagreement with your argument here is that people in a primarily oral culture won't be able to give a relatively good account of something they have studied years later.*
You are aware that neither the Greeks nor the Egyptians had a primarily oral culture in Plato's and Solon's time, right?
*Like we know oral chroniclers can be fn' good, we see this with griots in Africa and chroniclers in Melanesia and Australia, the Melanesian ones not even being a specific trained out caste distinct from the general population.*
You'll have to give me an example of how accurate the tradition is.
*Greek actors also memorized book sized poems and plays.*
As they do today.
*And I myself can well remember a book that I good great interest in when I was younger*
Yes, it can be done when you put your mind to it.
*so for those earlier people in an oral system, without constant memory aides and more would be so much better placed to remember such.*
There may have been an oral tradition among the bards, but there is no evidence of any meticulous oral tradition in history. Critias says that Solon wrote a poem, and he is recalling the poem that he read from so long ago. That doesn't sound like an oral tradition to me.
*So I would say if the story about Critas was true, it is very likely that he remembered what he said he did.*
It's interesting that you see Plato more as a historian than as an original thinker. I wonder how he got the information about the conversation.
@@WorldofAntiquity I will try and find my justifications for the reliability for oral sources later but I don't really disagree with you on Plato being more of an original thinker than a historian, my only major disagreement is on the reliability of Oral chronicles, which I think are as reliable as normal historical primary sources(like Josephus or Herodotus).
Why couldn’t Plato simply have had an amazing memory? He was clearly brilliant, so it’s not unlikely. And I think it’s most likely the average memory of intellectuals back then was superior to the average counterpart now, for numerous reasons both biological & cultural.
@@maidende8280 yeah, I agree with that for the most part.
Y'know, when I watched brights series on the topic, whilst interesting, the whole bit about Atlantis did not click with me that much, however, that whole water slide looking feature in that part of the Sahara did peak my interest like crazy. Anyone got anything I can jump to where I can learn about whatever that is?
@tsa3b many thx for the heads up!
Atlantis is not a myth. It doesn’t come from oral tradition nor are there any artwork, poems, plays or anything about it before Plato. It’s more akin to a fable. Sure over the centuries of retelling Plato’s story the idea has become a modern myth, but as far as the people walking around in Plato’s time, it wasn’t a shared traditional story, so not a myth. Everything else was great though.
Man, you take 30 minutes to demolish a theory that would not stand 30 seconds once your audience knows the relevant fact. Bright expounds a position that comes from the Gaia site, which is well known to be a purveyor of the worst and most absurd woo. case rested, Atlantis, if it ever existed, never was there.