I wonder if the German divers left the flag as a tribute to the Markgraf's captain, who was killed during the scuttling, along with eight other sailors.
I think that the German attitude to the scuttling of their entire High Seas Fleet at the end of the war( actually 6 months later) is pride at a final act of rebellion after they were forced to accept a draconian peace treaty.
@@iciclediver Probably in some right-wing groups it is remembered with something like pride or defiance in the face of national shame... I find it strange that someone will place a Reichskriegsflagge on an Imperial Navy ship that sank basically without losses. It was sunk deliberately and noone was hurt (exceptions apply here, but not due to the fact of drowning while the ship sank). The vast majority of Germans would not have a clue about the sinking of the Hochseeflotte. Imperial times, the Kaiser and the whole shabang are light years away for the average German as there is also no daily reminder of the fact that the country once was a monarchy. Emperor Wilhelm could also be a family member of emperor Palpatine for many.
@@iciclediver One more question: Which of the ships is in best condition? As I heard, part of the ships were salvaged? From all the battleships left in European waters, I assume these are the most accessible ones? HMS Royal Oak will be too damaged, I believe? HMS Audacious might be too deep under water in the open sea. Scharnhorst and Bismarck very much so, Tirpitz is salvaged. And all the vessels by the Royal Navy were scrapped. Barham exploded...did I forget some?
Firstly I will reply to your 1st post, I think you are being a bit hard on the Germans, WW1 was a European war mostly fought within the rules on both sides. The flag the German divers placed on the wreck is WW1 vintage rather than the Nazi Kriegsmarine flag of WW2. It should not have any left or right wing connotations---------------------------------------Of the German ships left at Scapa flow I think the Kronprinz Wilhelm is the most intact simply because if you are brave enough you can swim underneath the hull at 38m to access the main 12" guns. HMS Vanguard at Scapa is a war grave & blown to bits due to a magazine explosion & subsequent salvage. HMS Royal Oak is in very good condition having only been lightly salvaged after the war but diving on her is now prohibited. The person who taught me to dive used to dive on her often until she was declared a war grave & the Harbour master at Scapa banned all diving on her. She is probably the most intact battleship in European waters.-----------------------------------------Of the other ships you mention, my friends have dived Audacious at around 66m on rebreathers/Helium. Although she sank after hitting a single mine she is well broken up but her gun turrets are impressive. The British & German losses at Jutland are also diveable on Rebreathers but are well broken up (Magazine explosions)
@@Loretta2004 If you'd fly a Reichskriegsflagge in Germany, you'd certainly would be seen as right-wing extremist. However much of the appeal of using it out of context is because it's the closest thing to nazi symbols that is allowed. The remembrance of scarpa flow is pretty much alive. Just a month ago there was a news article about the 101 anniversary in German yellow press news paper "Bild". So I would say, you cannot say anything about the people, who placed it there. Probably also a bad idea to let shortly defeted Germans watch over "their" ships.
I agree and would add that if the Markgraf was sitting upright the main guns would only be in approx 25m which would make it a much longer & less narcotic dive
@@mandelasi Well, they also deliberately "pulled out the plugs" in only one side of the ships, so that they turn upside down and be much more difficult to raise (as far as I know - not that I've ever raised a German battleship ;))
@@xxxoof_lordxxx2655 Cox reckoned it was easier to raise an upside down ship than an upright one, obviously the hull would be mostly or entirely air tight so his divers had far less to seal. Even damage to the outside could be repaired by making timber and rubber patches and bolting them into place. Upright ships needed the entire topside sealed and airtight for the compressed air to lift it, necessitating all pipes, hatches, doorways, casements etc to be airtight under pressure before pumping began. They set compressors and airlocks on the upturned hulls of the ships. The Man Who Bought A Navy by Gerald Bowman is the classic account of Cox and Danks salvage of the High Seas Fleet at Scapa in the 1920's and 30's. Worth obtaining a copy, the things the divers did, working six decks down in a submerged battleship trying to find every opening mostly by touch, is incredible.
You might be surprised. When I made my first trip to Scapa even the 35m Cruisers seemed very deep at the beginning of the week but by the end of the week I was a lot more confident. Its amazing how much your diving improves in a week at Scapa especially if you've got an experienced diver with you. Hope you have a great time.
Royal Oak is the best preserved ship but she is a war grave and therefore cannot be disturded. Koenig is probably the German ship in the best condition but even she has massive hole in her from salvage
Love the commentary alongside the video. Dived the Markgraf in 1982 and bottomed out at 48m. Only had 10 minutes bottom time as we all dived on compressed air back then and we're all being advised to do no-stop dives. How times have changed. Great video btw
Nice video, I didn't see the flag in 2012 but Kevin was our skipper. He is top bloke who really knew his stuff. Great weeks diving on the Scapa wrecks and from a divers point of view I'm glad Mr Cox didn't lift them all!
Raise the flag, the very flag the Royal Navy forbidden them to fly while inturned in Scapa Flow. Men were killed shot by the British over the issue during those final hours for hoisting the colors as they attempted to raise the banner. One British officer even climbed up onto a sinking destroyer just to pull one flag down that was raised. The amount of spite by the British over the "Flag" was insane.
you can say that now .. but back then passions ran a little higher. my grandfather was at the somme and he never had a good word for germans ever. personally I've had clan friends I've liked who were german but thats 100 years later! dont try to apply current day to a war that had 20 million dead and 21 million wounded. where wives had to come to a railway station to pick up the remains of their husbands in a bag (as related on a tour of glasgow central, scotland)
@@georgedavidson957 I'd agree, if we were talking about the army. But this is the Navy. They rarely engaged eachother throughout the war. They were not involved in 4 years of bloodbaths and personal vendettas. It was also ironically the German Navy which technically put an end to the war. When sailors of the Imperial fleet marched into the streets and forcefully deposed the Monarchy. So the level of antagonization there was not deserved. It wasn't the army but navy which shot those men.
@@Alte.Kameradenright, because the navy would never have heard about what happened at the somme. And even if they did hear about their friends and countrymen being reduced to pieces, they probably definitely wouldn't think anything of it. Probably. No. We've just never known war like those men have. Your country goes to that kind of bat with those kind of stakes against anyone, you're going to hate them.
@@WarHeroA21 I honestly think it's more of a public appeasement than the navy being well, ticked off in a way. Best example of this is how Admiral Sydney Fremantle berated Vice Admiral Ludwig von Reuter. Proclaiming how dishonorable their actions were at Scapa Flow. But in private stated something along the lines "Any officer in his position would have done the same." Basically saying publicly he disapproved of Reuter scuttling his fleet but privately saying he would have done the same thing. So you had a British Admiral in charge of Scapa Flow giving two faces over the incident. Publicly being firm, but privately remorseful. Best way to sum it up, if you've ever seen Man in the High Castle. Small spoiler, but John Smith's wife tells him he has to stop. He replies "I don't know how." Because he has to do what society expects of him to do even if he hates it with all his heart.
@@Alte.Kameraden are the branches of the military not comprised of members of the nations public, then? Would this event be seen as somehow negative in the eyes of their fellow servicemen? Another thing, as I'm sure you're aware - flying a nation's ensign, their flag, is traditionally what you do when you're explicitly about to participate in a battle with someone. Many if not most nations navies know of and have abided by the practice at at least one point, including the germans and the Brits - the former being notable in that they even raised their colors when engaging using warships which were explicitly designed and made to look like trading ships. The germans raising their flag, at harbor, sinking, or not, would have been taken as intent to fight. Certainly when there was no other reason to raise said flag and especially when they are interned, surrounded and possibly contemplating a last stand. From where I'm standing it isn't as crazy as you may think. Not nearly. When your way of life and potentially your future as well as the way of life and future of everyone in your country is at stake and members of the aggressor nation are at your doorstep participating in military activities against your nation, you would likely find it unwise to give them an inch. I for one would forgive you if you got a little mad at them in the process. Handle that kind of business however you need to. Edit: All cards on the table, I don't know jack about the subject compared to you just reading the way you type, and prolly look like an idiot typing this because I'm a bored, inebriated dragon trying to start shid. Don't take what I say too seriously, roast me as you please.
I think that apart from the optical range finders which were removed before the fleet sailed from Germany these ships were inferior to British battleships of the same vintage but perhaps their Battlecruisers were superior to our Battlecruisers
@@iciclediverBei weitem waren die Kaiserlichen überlegen. Denk mal an die Schlacht am Skargarak. Das war das Ende der britischen Seehoheit. Oder warum hat man die Schiffe mit ihren Besatzungen so lange interniert ohne klares Bestimmungsziel und hat am Ende kriegsverbrecherisch die deutschen Besatzungen an Land schwimmend ermordet?
The open hatch on the keel might be an access hatch to allow workers to inspect and repair the double bottom when in dry dock. fuel and water tanks were often in these spaces, Battleships carried a quantity of oil fuel, although the Queen Elizabeths were the first British Battleships to be fuelled solely by oil.
@@benwilson6145 ah thanks. Interesting. I looked in Warship Design from 1907 to see if there was an explanation but it was all about sub-division and metacentric heights!! Thinking about it it would have been easier to access the double bottom internally for inspection.
I went to see SMS Dresden, at Scapa Flow (34mts), via ROV. You could see the Karl zeiss lens as clear as the day they sighted targets - the rest of the guns and external optics covered with barnacles. Bucket lists ticked
@/dev/RerunCipher Or just eroded by currents... why tell me this? (Also the flag is stated as on one of the prop shafts, so it's not as if the original would've been _there_ either.)
If it helps this dive ( actually two dives ) was on 24 and 25 August 2011. I must admit to being well impressed by the sudden appearance of the flag as we ascended from the hull.
Thank you for this, I saw a video for the Bismarck and it was like 2 small clips and a picture and they're like "they were down there for 12 hours", and it was disappointing to get so little from such a significant ship, and bow much they could've shown
I love the imperial German flag. It has an elegance harking back to the Middle Ages and modern elements of iconography mixed together. Most ww1 flags were cool like that.
Very interesting video with a good narrative. If I may correct your description she was not scuttled at the end of the war to prevent her from falling into British hands. There had been a naval arms race from the late Victorian era which carried on up to the second world war. Following the armistice which ended the fighting of the first world war, but did not agree the peace terms, the German Imperial Navy was held in a kind of limbo at Scapa Flow and denied communication with those negotiating terms. The allies were unable to agree on how to share out the fleet as America was seeking to curb Britain's naval power. After many months of frustration the Germans scuttled the, by then rat infested, fleet in order that they could end the stalemate and go home. Several of the ships were raised and some could have been refurbished as warships but the arms race meant that they had to be scrapped for a fraction of their potential value.
I agree yours is a more complete account than I provided in the Description and for a complete account can I recommend 'The Grand Scuttle' . I hope to return to Scapa before the Centenary celebrations of the scuttling
Wait I realized just now this was posted 13 years ago ? Took this long to get recommended. Also, the planted Imperial German Flag was very nice. Any plans to go back there ?
Yes, my first visit to Scapa Flow was in 1995 and if you have not been back recently, you will be shocked at how quickly the ships are deteriorating. This is especially true of the light cruisers. I will be uploading more videos soon which may illustrate this
Thanks for this video, great shots and good narration. Very interesting to see some details about the armour and the open portholes to made her sink faster. It`s a shame and after-war crime that british sailors shot at the german ones as they left the sinking ships. No british fairness was shown. My father was a 15-years old youth as WW1 ended, and he remembered much about this time, told me what he personally experienced. Like the british officer who knocked down the hat of a blind (!) german civilist because he did not greet him. He was at the harbour when the high seas fleet set sails towards England, silently crying about the loss. Some ships still had wounds from the battle of Jutland. He was proud of the german mariners who saved all people in the water, no matter under which flag they sailed. He spoke with some of the british sailors after war and they told him they were treated very well, with respect and honor. They were proud about the german mariners showing so much condolence, much of the british sailors made friends with their former foes. But all this is forgotten, intentionally concealed. Some comments here show how little knowledge some people have. They think the Nazis were right-winged, but this is completely wrong. It`s just propaganda from the left-winged ones. Socialism is always left-winged. The national-socialists hated the right-winged people, just search for Goebbels quotations.
Yeah, cute story buddy. Except the Allies couldn't save people in the water, because German submarines would target ships offering aid. Maybe they shouldn't have started unrestricted submarine warfare and killed thousands of civilians. I'm a history major - the Nazis were right-wing.
@@darianbrowning1608 "I'm a history major" No, you`re not. As a history major you should know the truth, Nazis were and are extreme left-winged. Just translate this 3 Goebbels quotations yourself: - Lenin ist nach Hitler der größte Mann, und der Unterschied zwischen dem Kommunismus und dem Führer-Kult ist sehr gering. - Sozialist sein: das heißt, das Ich dem Du unterordnen, die Persönlichkeit der Gesamtheit zum Opfer bringen. Sozialismus ist im tiefsten Sinne Dienst. Verzicht für den Einzelnen und Forderung für das Ganze. - Der Idee der NSDAP entsprechend sind wir die deutsche Linke. Nichts ist uns verhasster als der rechtsstehende nationale Besitzbürgerblock
I like the scene from the movie, "The Chase." The main character played by John Wayne, a tramp frieghter captain who served in the Imperial German Navy. In the final confrontation with the Britiah Royal Navy Wayne would not surrender his ship, looking through a closest he picked out and raised a tattered but still recognizable battle flag of the IGN.
HI really like the way you have talked over the video explaining what you are showing. I'm booked up for scapa in September really looking forward to it but i wont be doing this wreck 42m is a little to deep for me at the moment recently qualified sportdiver.
@@iciclediver, hah, didn't think they were a common sight around our coasts. The first thing I think of when I think about sea urchins are the vibrant purple star shaped ones you always see in the Pacific.
Came for the ship, stayed for the fish, bros live in the coolest spot ever. (Not if you have submechanophobia like myself, but for a fish it’s like the sickest.)
Rundfunker - The nick-name 'huns' was given to the Germans by the British public and press in both world wars, and that is what Raymond Gill is clearly alluding to.
Paul Kirkland Yes, I know. But the problem is that most of these people thought and still think that Germans actually are former Huns which is absolute BS
Rundfunker - I don't know whether 'most people' think that way ( I haven't seen the statistics ) but why automatically assume Raymond Gill is one of those people ? The heraldic 'Gott Mit Uns' and the slang use of 'Huns' are contemporaneous, and it's not a difficult connection to make, given the topic of this video. Raymond Gill's use of the word is perfectly appropriate, so why react in such a thoughtless and insulting manner ?
If you mean by public, suitably qualified scuba divers then yes. If you mean non divers then I believe their used to be a tour boat from Stromness with an ROV that showed non divers a virtual dive while they hovered above the wreck. These are not war graves.
iciclediver hm I guess I’ll have to get scuba certified or whatever, would love to see these things despite what the water has done to them likely for over a century, thanks!
I think I Have said it before but as these wrecks are deeper, they were left to the end and by then world war two intervened and their were no slips available to break them up so they were left for us
No - These ships were ordered to make their way to Scapa flow as part of the armistice agreement that ended WW1. They were inspected by the British en-route to ensure that their was no ammo onboard & I think the breech mechanisms were disabled. The Germans removed their optical range finding equipment before they sailed to prevent the British getting their hands on it. Hope this helps
iciclediver I did not know that, German optics are often credited with allowing them to land the first hits although others argue the British system came into its own during the intense phase of the battle.
raul duke I've had a look on the Web & it's probably because the Konig class battleships sank in relatively deep water which made them more difficult to salvage than the other ships. They used to raise the ships by connecting circular shafts onto the upside down hulls and pumping them out with compressed air. The workers had to work in the compressed air making the holes airtight and so would have been susceptible to Caissons disease/the bends/nitrogen narcosis as these ships are at around 40 metres maximum depth. I suspect that they just took the easier ones first and by the time only the Konigs were left there was no market for their scrap. There has been some small scale salvage on the ships using explosives to remove the non-ferrous metals and they also utilise the armour plate in radiation detectors as it is not contaminated by the various nuclear tests which occurred after WW2.
Maybe the logistics at the time did not allow for the ship to be turned in order to be raised. The German Imperial Flag still there must be a new addition, right?. Haunting but beautiful at the same time.
I think, the flag must been left shortly before judging from the condition. There is a diving video with another flag from '19 where the diver explains the flag was left for the 100th remembrance a month before and it looked much worse.
I am afraid not, although I do enjoy some of his WoW videos on youtube. I've just got a similar British accent, Looking forward to British & German fleets eventually arriving.
Your a lucky lad then. The USA is the only nation that has preserved some of its old Battleships. Put "battleship museum" into Wiki & it will list them. They are mostly WW2 ships but the USS Texas is a WW1 super dreadnought similar to these German ships
to bad that USS Texas is in very bad shape .. theres a monumental battleship serving in 2 WW´s and she is neglected all year long .. hope she can saved and is treated with a lil more love ..
Germans should be allowed to respect their WW1 history, after all, it was just a war, and while war is horrible, WW2 was much more than just a war. Which is a whole different topic.
🤔 Here's the thing that has me scratching my head..... Why in God's name would you go to all the trouble of installing a massively thick and heavy 13" armored belt, then put freaking glass windows(portholes) up and down the length of the hull!? I'm pretty darn sure they had electric lighting on German ships, so its not like they absolutely required the portholes for light. Didn't it ever occur to anyone that having an armored belt is almost pointless if even a smaller caliber shell can bust right through a porthole and explode inside!? 🥴🤪
That Imperial Naval Ensign is beautiful.
I have the chance to find myself an original one, one of my most precious possessions.
I wonder if the German divers left the flag as a tribute to the Markgraf's captain, who was killed during the scuttling, along with eight other sailors.
I think that the German attitude to the scuttling of their entire High Seas Fleet at the end of the war( actually 6 months later) is pride at a final act of rebellion after they were forced to accept a draconian peace treaty.
@@iciclediver Probably in some right-wing groups it is remembered with something like pride or defiance in the face of national shame... I find it strange that someone will place a Reichskriegsflagge on an Imperial Navy ship that sank basically without losses. It was sunk deliberately and noone was hurt (exceptions apply here, but not due to the fact of drowning while the ship sank). The vast majority of Germans would not have a clue about the sinking of the Hochseeflotte. Imperial times, the Kaiser and the whole shabang are light years away for the average German as there is also no daily reminder of the fact that the country once was a monarchy. Emperor Wilhelm could also be a family member of emperor Palpatine for many.
@@iciclediver One more question: Which of the ships is in best condition? As I heard, part of the ships were salvaged? From all the battleships left in European waters, I assume these are the most accessible ones? HMS Royal Oak will be too damaged, I believe? HMS Audacious might be too deep under water in the open sea. Scharnhorst and Bismarck very much so, Tirpitz is salvaged. And all the vessels by the Royal Navy were scrapped. Barham exploded...did I forget some?
Firstly I will reply to your 1st post, I think you are being a bit hard on the Germans, WW1 was a European war mostly fought within the rules on both sides. The flag the German divers placed on the wreck is WW1 vintage rather than the Nazi Kriegsmarine flag of WW2. It should not have any left or right wing connotations---------------------------------------Of the German ships left at Scapa flow I think the Kronprinz Wilhelm is the most intact simply because if you are brave enough you can swim underneath the hull at 38m to access the main 12" guns. HMS Vanguard at Scapa is a war grave & blown to bits due to a magazine explosion & subsequent salvage. HMS Royal Oak is in very good condition having only been lightly salvaged after the war but diving on her is now prohibited. The person who taught me to dive used to dive on her often until she was declared a war grave & the Harbour master at Scapa banned all diving on her. She is probably the most intact battleship in European waters.-----------------------------------------Of the other ships you mention, my friends have dived Audacious at around 66m on rebreathers/Helium. Although she sank after hitting a single mine she is well broken up but her gun turrets are impressive. The British & German losses at Jutland are also diveable on Rebreathers but are well broken up (Magazine explosions)
@@Loretta2004 If you'd fly a Reichskriegsflagge in Germany, you'd certainly would be seen as right-wing extremist. However much of the appeal of using it out of context is because it's the closest thing to nazi symbols that is allowed. The remembrance of scarpa flow is pretty much alive. Just a month ago there was a news article about the 101 anniversary in German yellow press news paper "Bild". So I would say, you cannot say anything about the people, who placed it there.
Probably also a bad idea to let shortly defeted Germans watch over "their" ships.
Its a real shame when ships sink upside down, much rather see the decks and the structures built onto the superstructure.
I agree and would add that if the Markgraf was sitting upright the main guns would only be in approx 25m which would make it a much longer & less narcotic dive
It's because they were top heavy once they submerged so they flipped upside down and hit the seabed upside down or on their sides.
@@mandelasi Well, they also deliberately "pulled out the plugs" in only one side of the ships, so that they turn upside down and be much more difficult to raise (as far as I know - not that I've ever raised a German battleship ;))
@@xxxoof_lordxxx2655 oh I see. I wasn't aware of that. That makes sense.
@@xxxoof_lordxxx2655 Cox reckoned it was easier to raise an upside down ship than an upright one, obviously the hull would be mostly or entirely air tight so his divers had far less to seal. Even damage to the outside could be repaired by making timber and rubber patches and bolting them into place. Upright ships needed the entire topside sealed and airtight for the compressed air to lift it, necessitating all pipes, hatches, doorways, casements etc to be airtight under pressure before pumping began. They set compressors and airlocks on the upturned hulls of the ships.
The Man Who Bought A Navy by Gerald Bowman is the classic account of Cox and Danks salvage of the High Seas Fleet at Scapa in the 1920's and 30's. Worth obtaining a copy, the things the divers did, working six decks down in a submerged battleship trying to find every opening mostly by touch, is incredible.
You might be surprised. When I made my first trip to Scapa even the 35m Cruisers seemed very deep at the beginning of the week but by the end of the week I was a lot more confident. Its amazing how much your diving improves in a week at Scapa especially if you've got an experienced diver with you. Hope you have a great time.
iciclediver could you give us some advice if we want to dive at scapa? And most important: Is there any sharks on Jutland sea?
Do you think there is chance that atleast one of these ships could be refloated and restored as floating museum
@@MCZGStudio To be honest, no, they are too badly corroded to be lifted in large sections. They would just fall apart under the strain.
@@iciclediver and which one is in best shape?
Royal Oak is the best preserved ship but she is a war grave and therefore cannot be disturded. Koenig is probably the German ship in the best condition but even she has massive hole in her from salvage
A beautiful flag for a beautiful ship.
Agreed. Amen
Diving on wrecks like this is like a trip through time, very awesome video.
Love the commentary alongside the video.
Dived the Markgraf in 1982 and bottomed out at 48m.
Only had 10 minutes bottom time as we all dived on compressed air back then and we're all being advised to do no-stop dives. How times have changed.
Great video btw
3:07 I will not lie, them putting the flag is kinda awesome
respect to the fallen
Nice video, I didn't see the flag in 2012 but Kevin was our skipper. He is top bloke who really knew his stuff. Great weeks diving on the Scapa wrecks and from a divers point of view I'm glad Mr Cox didn't lift them all!
She was a magnificent battleship in her time.
Raise the flag, the very flag the Royal Navy forbidden them to fly while inturned in Scapa Flow. Men were killed shot by the British over the issue during those final hours for hoisting the colors as they attempted to raise the banner. One British officer even climbed up onto a sinking destroyer just to pull one flag down that was raised. The amount of spite by the British over the "Flag" was insane.
you can say that now .. but back then passions ran a little higher. my grandfather was at the somme and he never had a good word for germans ever. personally I've had clan friends I've liked who were german but thats 100 years later! dont try to apply current day to a war that had 20 million dead and 21 million wounded. where wives had to come to a railway station to pick up the remains of their husbands in a bag (as related on a tour of glasgow central, scotland)
@@georgedavidson957 I'd agree, if we were talking about the army. But this is the Navy. They rarely engaged eachother throughout the war. They were not involved in 4 years of bloodbaths and personal vendettas. It was also ironically the German Navy which technically put an end to the war. When sailors of the Imperial fleet marched into the streets and forcefully deposed the Monarchy. So the level of antagonization there was not deserved.
It wasn't the army but navy which shot those men.
@@Alte.Kameradenright, because the navy would never have heard about what happened at the somme. And even if they did hear about their friends and countrymen being reduced to pieces, they probably definitely wouldn't think anything of it. Probably.
No. We've just never known war like those men have. Your country goes to that kind of bat with those kind of stakes against anyone, you're going to hate them.
@@WarHeroA21 I honestly think it's more of a public appeasement than the navy being well, ticked off in a way.
Best example of this is how Admiral Sydney Fremantle berated Vice Admiral Ludwig von Reuter. Proclaiming how dishonorable their actions were at Scapa Flow. But in private stated something along the lines "Any officer in his position would have done the same." Basically saying publicly he disapproved of Reuter scuttling his fleet but privately saying he would have done the same thing.
So you had a British Admiral in charge of Scapa Flow giving two faces over the incident. Publicly being firm, but privately remorseful.
Best way to sum it up, if you've ever seen Man in the High Castle. Small spoiler, but John Smith's wife tells him he has to stop. He replies "I don't know how." Because he has to do what society expects of him to do even if he hates it with all his heart.
@@Alte.Kameraden are the branches of the military not comprised of members of the nations public, then? Would this event be seen as somehow negative in the eyes of their fellow servicemen?
Another thing, as I'm sure you're aware - flying a nation's ensign, their flag, is traditionally what you do when you're explicitly about to participate in a battle with someone. Many if not most nations navies know of and have abided by the practice at at least one point, including the germans and the Brits - the former being notable in that they even raised their colors when engaging using warships which were explicitly designed and made to look like trading ships.
The germans raising their flag, at harbor, sinking, or not, would have been taken as intent to fight. Certainly when there was no other reason to raise said flag and especially when they are interned, surrounded and possibly contemplating a last stand.
From where I'm standing it isn't as crazy as you may think. Not nearly. When your way of life and potentially your future as well as the way of life and future of everyone in your country is at stake and members of the aggressor nation are at your doorstep participating in military activities against your nation, you would likely find it unwise to give them an inch. I for one would forgive you if you got a little mad at them in the process. Handle that kind of business however you need to.
Edit: All cards on the table, I don't know jack about the subject compared to you just reading the way you type, and prolly look like an idiot typing this because I'm a bored, inebriated dragon trying to start shid. Don't take what I say too seriously, roast me as you please.
Commander Walther Schumann was the last German soldier KIA in w.w. 1 on June 21 st 1919.
Yes and apparently he is buried at Scapa Flow in the military cemetery at Lyness
good job of the germans then preventing their state-of-the-art ships from falling into British hand.
I think that apart from the optical range finders which were removed before the fleet sailed from Germany these ships were inferior to British battleships of the same vintage but perhaps their Battlecruisers were superior to our Battlecruisers
@@iciclediverBei weitem waren die Kaiserlichen überlegen. Denk mal an die Schlacht am Skargarak. Das war das Ende der britischen Seehoheit.
Oder warum hat man die Schiffe mit ihren Besatzungen so lange interniert ohne klares Bestimmungsziel und hat am Ende kriegsverbrecherisch die deutschen Besatzungen an Land schwimmend ermordet?
I didn't notice that it was uploaded 13 years ago.
The open hatch on the keel might be an access hatch to allow workers to inspect and repair the double bottom when in dry dock. fuel and water tanks were often in these spaces, Battleships carried a quantity of oil fuel, although the Queen Elizabeths were the first British Battleships to be fuelled solely by oil.
Suggest it may be where the water inlet/overboards are located
@@benwilson6145 ah thanks. Interesting. I looked in Warship Design from 1907 to see if there was an explanation but it was all about sub-division and metacentric heights!!
Thinking about it it would have been easier to access the double bottom internally for inspection.
Specifically a Konig class Dreadnaught had 15 boilers, 12 coal fired and 3 oil fired.
This is both sad and happy seeing the flag still stand there waving
The flag its a sign that some of us dont forget the people that did sacrifices in the past...
I went to see SMS Dresden, at Scapa Flow (34mts), via ROV. You could see the Karl zeiss lens as clear as the day they sighted targets - the rest of the guns and external optics covered with barnacles. Bucket lists ticked
It's incredible that the flag has been so well preserved to this day.
Very good. Nice video and great narration. Thank you.
A sad end to a beautiful ship
Her flag still flying
Cuz it's still proud
Emperor Franz Joseph of Austria and its still clean, feels like that was installed a few days ago
It's not though, as is mentioned in the video, it was left by German divers, it's a modern flag.
@/dev/RerunCipher Or just eroded by currents... why tell me this? (Also the flag is stated as on one of the prop shafts, so it's not as if the original would've been _there_ either.)
You didn’t think that was an original flag 🤦♂️
i think i may have been there at the roughly the same time as you filmed this.... i recognise the flag !
If it helps this dive ( actually two dives ) was on 24 and 25 August 2011. I must admit to being well impressed by the sudden appearance of the flag as we ascended from the hull.
The perception of scale is completely different underwater - the ship is so enormous, even the rudders look ridiculously big!
How can you downvote this, great video!
Very nice pics & narration
what a great video andrew .great to look back at it,
Thank you for this, I saw a video for the Bismarck and it was like 2 small clips and a picture and they're like "they were down there for 12 hours", and it was disappointing to get so little from such a significant ship, and bow much they could've shown
God bless the German sailors and seamen who fought for their homeland. God bless our European brothers, no matter the flag or continent.
Was ist denn bloß passiert!
I love the imperial German flag. It has an elegance harking back to the Middle Ages and modern elements of iconography mixed together. Most ww1 flags were cool like that.
I can’t believe how mint that flag looks
Super cool! Thank you for sharing!
It looks like mushrooms growing on the ships hull.
Wow! This was way fun to watch😲🙄😊
Very interesting video with a good narrative. If I may correct your description she was not scuttled at the end of the war to prevent her from falling into British hands. There had been a naval arms race from the late Victorian era which carried on up to the second world war. Following the armistice which ended the fighting of the first world war, but did not agree the peace terms, the German Imperial Navy was held in a kind of limbo at Scapa Flow and denied communication with those negotiating terms. The allies were unable to agree on how to share out the fleet as America was seeking to curb Britain's naval power. After many months of frustration the Germans scuttled the, by then rat infested, fleet in order that they could end the stalemate and go home. Several of the ships were raised and some could have been refurbished as warships but the arms race meant that they had to be scrapped for a fraction of their potential value.
I agree yours is a more complete account than I provided in the Description and for a complete account can I recommend 'The Grand Scuttle' . I hope to return to Scapa before the Centenary celebrations of the scuttling
Wait I realized just now this was posted 13 years ago ? Took this long to get recommended.
Also, the planted Imperial German Flag was very nice. Any plans to go back there ?
Been back once already and returning in October 2024
Man that flag is beautiful
Yes, my first visit to Scapa Flow was in 1995 and if you have not been back recently, you will be shocked at how quickly the ships are deteriorating. This is especially true of the light cruisers. I will be uploading more videos soon which may illustrate this
My dream is to dive Scapa Flow.
Still dreaming.
Me too
Thanks for this video, great shots and good narration. Very interesting to see some details about the armour and the open portholes to made her sink faster. It`s a shame and after-war crime that british sailors shot at the german ones as they left the sinking ships. No british fairness was shown. My father was a 15-years old youth as WW1 ended, and he remembered much about this time, told me what he personally experienced. Like the british officer who knocked down the hat of a blind (!) german civilist because he did not greet him. He was at the harbour when the high seas fleet set sails towards England, silently crying about the loss. Some ships still had wounds from the battle of Jutland. He was proud of the german mariners who saved all people in the water, no matter under which flag they sailed. He spoke with some of the british sailors after war and they told him they were treated very well, with respect and honor. They were proud about the german mariners showing so much condolence, much of the british sailors made friends with their former foes. But all this is forgotten, intentionally concealed.
Some comments here show how little knowledge some people have. They think the Nazis were right-winged, but this is completely wrong. It`s just propaganda from the left-winged ones. Socialism is always left-winged. The national-socialists hated the right-winged people, just search for Goebbels quotations.
Yeah, cute story buddy. Except the Allies couldn't save people in the water, because German submarines would target ships offering aid.
Maybe they shouldn't have started unrestricted submarine warfare and killed thousands of civilians.
I'm a history major - the Nazis were right-wing.
@@darianbrowning1608 "I'm a history major"
No, you`re not. As a history major you should know the truth, Nazis were and are extreme left-winged.
Just translate this 3 Goebbels quotations yourself:
- Lenin ist nach Hitler der größte Mann, und der Unterschied zwischen dem Kommunismus und dem Führer-Kult ist sehr gering.
- Sozialist sein: das heißt, das Ich dem Du unterordnen, die Persönlichkeit der Gesamtheit zum Opfer bringen. Sozialismus ist im tiefsten Sinne Dienst. Verzicht für den Einzelnen und Forderung für das Ganze.
- Der Idee der NSDAP entsprechend sind wir die deutsche Linke. Nichts ist uns verhasster als der rechtsstehende nationale Besitzbürgerblock
Ah, brings back memories of the early ninties
4:19 C R A B
I like the scene from the movie, "The Chase." The main character played by John Wayne, a tramp frieghter captain who served in the Imperial German Navy. In the final confrontation with the Britiah Royal Navy Wayne would not surrender his ship, looking through a closest he picked out and raised a tattered but still recognizable battle flag of the IGN.
Very nice..enjoyable
HI really like the way you have talked over the video explaining what you are showing. I'm booked up for scapa in September really looking forward to it but i wont be doing this wreck 42m is a little to deep for me at the moment recently qualified sportdiver.
The flag amazingly still looks new
No surprise, the flag is new! 😆🤣😁
Divers have put it up.
Available online for little money.😁
MEIN GOT DAS IST WUNDERBAR
Surprising that the German Imperial flag is capable of flying while under water.
Air and water are both fluids
It's amazing that the flag has lasted over a century under water.
It was placed there recently it seems
You think that flag lasted that long in this pristine condition? lol
Cool dive
Is that a sea urchin at 1:30??
Yes and some rusty starfish
@@iciclediver, hah, didn't think they were a common sight around our coasts. The first thing I think of when I think about sea urchins are the vibrant purple star shaped ones you always see in the Pacific.
How deep is this schip
45 metre max
That 110 year old flag still lives???
Came for the ship, stayed for the fish, bros live in the coolest spot ever.
(Not if you have submechanophobia like myself, but for a fish it’s like the sickest.)
Danke aus Deutschland 👋 Schön unsere Flagge auf einem unserer Schiffe noch einmal sehen zu können 🥺
GOTT MIT UNS
Gott was never mit the huns. Gott is British.
The huns are asian people you idiot
Rundfunker - The nick-name 'huns' was given to the Germans by the British public and press in both world wars, and that is what Raymond Gill is clearly alluding to.
Paul Kirkland Yes, I know. But the problem is that most of these people thought and still think that Germans actually are former Huns which is absolute BS
Rundfunker - I don't know whether 'most people' think that way ( I haven't seen the statistics ) but why automatically assume Raymond Gill is one of those people ?
The heraldic 'Gott Mit Uns' and the slang use of 'Huns' are contemporaneous, and it's not a difficult connection to make, given the topic of this video. Raymond Gill's use of the word is perfectly appropriate, so why react in such a thoughtless and insulting manner ?
Dunno how you dive in places like that without freaking out
Thanks Phil, the DVD is finished and I will be handing them out at the baths. If you can't make it e-mail your address
Can the public dive the German high seas fleet at Scapa Flow?
If you mean by public, suitably qualified scuba divers then yes. If you mean non divers then I believe their used to be a tour boat from Stromness with an ROV that showed non divers a virtual dive while they hovered above the wreck. These are not war graves.
iciclediver hm I guess I’ll have to get scuba certified or whatever, would love to see these things despite what the water has done to them likely for over a century, thanks!
!!!! New flag??????
Yes some German divers installed it.
May i ask how is the flag still there, and has not desintigrated?????
@@Dievas.yra.Karalius It was placed on the propellor shaft the week before by german scuba divers
Is she the only German BB still left in Scapa Flow?
There are three or four iirc, plus a few cruisers and destroyers
Can you find KMS graf zepplein
nice commentary, you know were you are ship wise as you journey around. to many vids come with no audio aid which is a shame as most vids are good.
The flag is very cool.
Wonderful film. Very enjoyable.
3:21=Sqapa Flow is in Geman Hand.
I think you are being a bit ambitious, your navy was utterly defeated by ours in both world wars. Your army is a different matter.
so how did the flag survive after all those years? or was it later added to the wreck?
Looks very new - no chance it is original, especially since it is attached to a propeller. Some other divers probably left it there.
Reichskriegsflagge : the most beautiful flag of all times. Bye from Italy 🇮🇹
Seems virtually all of the battleships landed upside down with the scuttlings. What was the reason for it not being raised like most of the others?
I think I Have said it before but as these wrecks are deeper, they were left to the end and by then world war two intervened and their were no slips available to break them up so they were left for us
I have this exact flag on my wall.
so when do we raise it ???
That's the neat part. You don't.
Was the port holes opened to aid scuttling? Like so many of them in scapa flow. Interesting video thanks
I don't know about these ones but opening portholes to aid the sinking in mentioned in contemporaneous accounts
Any ammo still on board?
No - These ships were ordered to make their way to Scapa flow as part of the armistice agreement that ended WW1. They were inspected by the British en-route to ensure that their was no ammo onboard & I think the breech mechanisms were disabled. The Germans removed their optical range finding equipment before they sailed to prevent the British getting their hands on it. Hope this helps
iciclediver
I read that they have just salvaged the optics from the Graf Spee.
Toy Pupanbai
iciclediver I did not know that, German optics are often credited with allowing them to land the first hits although others argue the British system came into its own during the intense phase of the battle.
*seeing the Imperial german Krieg Flagge*
"Heute wollen wir ein Liedlein singen,
Trinken wollen wir den kühlen Wein"
The fact that flag has no ware and tear nor corrosion not even moss on it
kind of cool shipwreck
The flag was signed. That would be interesting.
That crab is captain now
Ship's been sunk for a century now. She literally sleeps with the fishes!
That was interesting.
3:05
why was this not raised with the others?
raul duke I've had a look on the Web & it's probably because the Konig class battleships sank in relatively deep water which made them more difficult to salvage than the other ships. They used to raise the ships by connecting circular shafts onto the upside down hulls and pumping them out with compressed air. The workers had to work in the compressed air making the holes airtight and so would have been susceptible to Caissons disease/the bends/nitrogen narcosis as these ships are at around 40 metres maximum depth. I suspect that they just took the easier ones first and by the time only the Konigs were left there was no market for their scrap. There has been some small scale salvage on the ships using explosives to remove the non-ferrous metals and they also utilise the armour plate in radiation detectors as it is not contaminated by the various nuclear tests which occurred after WW2.
Maybe the logistics at the time did not allow for the ship to be turned in order to be raised. The German Imperial Flag still there must be a new addition, right?. Haunting but beautiful at the same time.
It looks so weird seeing that flag on a German battleship
3:09 I’m surprised that flag is their almost 100 years 😂
No? It was set up there by divers you can even see the names of the divers on the flag itself
@@SimForLife it was a joke but ok
@@SimmyMob2025 ok
At least the front didn't fall off.
As if the flag is still intact, that’s really interesting
some other diver left it there
I think, the flag must been left shortly before judging from the condition. There is a diving video with another flag from '19 where the diver explains the flag was left for the 100th remembrance a month before and it looked much worse.
3:15 он так эпично развевается под водой
is that u The Mighty Jingles doing the voice over
I am afraid not, although I do enjoy some of his WoW videos on youtube. I've just got a similar British accent, Looking forward to British & German fleets eventually arriving.
They were scuttled by their crews in a defiance of the surrender.
I thought navy flex don’t last that long in the ocean because it’ll probably dissolve and ruin it. Someone probably put it there as a good condition.
Your a lucky lad then. The USA is the only nation that has preserved some of its old Battleships. Put "battleship museum" into Wiki & it will list them. They are mostly WW2 ships but the USS Texas is a WW1 super dreadnought similar to these German ships
to bad that USS Texas is in very bad shape .. theres a monumental battleship serving in 2 WW´s and she is neglected all year long .. hope she can saved and is treated with a lil more love ..
Misaka in Japan is from 1890
Germans should be allowed to respect their WW1 history, after all, it was just a war, and while war is horrible, WW2 was much more than just a war. Which is a whole different topic.
Who left the flag there?
some German scuba divers
🤔 Here's the thing that has me scratching my head..... Why in God's name would you go to all the trouble of installing a massively thick and heavy 13" armored belt, then put freaking glass windows(portholes) up and down the length of the hull!? I'm pretty darn sure they had electric lighting on German ships, so its not like they absolutely required the portholes for light. Didn't it ever occur to anyone that having an armored belt is almost pointless if even a smaller caliber shell can bust right through a porthole and explode inside!? 🥴🤪
Look up 'deadlight' on portholes. The complete sides of battleships are never fully armoured as they concentrate the armour over the vitals
The Flag stand, that fcking beautifull
Picture, not pitcher.
F I cold get y hands on none tiny little piece…
that flag still in there what a legend
It was put there Champ
3:16 it is a terrible thing to see the glorious flags of Prussia, and the German Empire used by extremists