MORMON REACTION: Murder Among The Mormons Review
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- Опубликовано: 17 сен 2024
- *THIS REVIEW CONTAINS SPOILERS*
A review of and reaction to the new Netflix Docuseries "Murder Among The Mormons" by Jared Hess & Tyler Measom.
Video Sources:
Original Video: Murder Among The Mormons
www.netflix.co...
The Book Brent Metcalf Found (Shared Kindly By Brent Himself)
www.mormonstudi...
1832 First Vision Account
www.josephsmit...
www.josephsmit...
The Church News - 28 April 1985
www.upi.com/Ar...
James E Faust - 1983 October General Conference
www.churchofje...
Rock in a Hat Translation
www.churchofje...
Jared Hess Interview
time.com/59434...
Joseph on View of the Hebrews
www.josephsmit...
Similarities Between the Book of Mormon and View of the Hebrews
B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, pg. 240
www.amazon.co....
Mound Builders
www.smithsonia...
The Gift of Discernment
www.churchofje...
Interventionism
www.churchofje...
The original video is included under 'Fair Use' law for the purpose of review and critique.
#MarkHofmann #SalamanderLetter #Mormon
Fellow Brits jumping on the band-wagon! 😉 We should certainly do a colab at some point.
Absolutely!
yes please.
I would love to see this! I am big fan of you both.
THAT WOULD BE AMAZING!!!
That would be un real please do.
I am so glad that you fact checked Turley. He was the most frustrating part of the documentary. I wish the documentary went more into how these events affected the church.
So infuriating! Me too, although they had to tread a fine line between Mormon and Non-Mormon appeal, because there are far more Non-Mormons out there!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I completely understand why they did it that way. I know that Hess still has believing family members. But this is a step in the right direction. Someday there will be someone with enough money and influence that wants to make a Netflix documentary about the church that tells the whole truth without worrying about the backlash.
What Turley also didn't bother to mention is that the Church bought about 400 documents from Hoffman in total, and tucked them away out of sight. What does that say about their transparency? They were scared sh**less!
I didn't realise it was that many!!!
@@nealdouglas8165 Could I bother you for a citation on this? It’s not that I don’t believe you, I just want to make sure in an academic sort of way. Thanks!
Nemo the book that Brent was talking about is "Life of Elias Smith" by Elias Smith early 1800's - parallels the life of Joseph Smith. In the reserve section of library. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Smith#:~:text=Elias%20Smith%20(17%20June%201769,known%20as%20the%20Christian%20Connexion.
Exactly. It had a comparison of the Elias Smith and Joseph Smith vision accounts written by a BYU professor tucked in the front of the book. This is what alarmed the Brethren and eventually led them to sack him.
See I can always rely on you wonderful folks to know some amazing stuff! Cheers!
Great details, thanks Neal!
www.mormonstudiespodcast.org/joseph-smith-elias-smith-and-wilford-poulson/?fbclid=IwAR3fnyygw3A7vFH7j79nBXr87jpTqDh3k68f0d5S_poSTFyI0GUpVsEvk4w
Brent also goes into more detail about the book and his experience in his mormon stories interview.
Each week the LDS prophet and his two assistants and the twelve apostles meet in the Salt Lake temple in a room called the Holy of Holies. It’s where they can converse with God. It’s where they receive answers from God.
So I ask you believers...
why did they not ask God if the papers were true? Why did God not answer them?
The idea that they are prophets totally is a farse. For Hinkley to say they were duped when they talk to God shows their true colors.
Your guess is as good as mine. On a related note, they have just spent Millions on upgrading part of the church office building to have these weekly meetings in while the temple is being renovated...
@@NEMOTHEMORMON At one time I worked personal protection for the cult leaders. I have been in the security headquarters and the underground tunnels under temple square.
I’m so excited you started a podcast- your episodes on MSP were some of my favorites. Can’t wait to listen to all of your episodes!
Thank you!
Mark Hoffman is just like Joseph Smith in character.
I can certainly see similarities!
“Fooling people gave me a sense of power and authority”. Yup...pretty similar in character! I had said the same thing to my wife as we watched it
😂Haha. Yah he is. Lol.
Having been raised up in what he discovered to be a right SLUICE, Hoffman was determined to show these criminals for what they were and the scam and the sham.
He could demonstrate how EASILY the whole charade was to pull off, because GREED was the lethal motivator for the "church".
Yes, he had his own delusions, but such propensities may never manifest unless the spore lands in the right mire, as clearly it did. A culture of CELEBRITY, COMPETITION,
and CRIMINAL COLLABORATION.
Too bad it was he who paid the ultimate price.
"Having lived in Manchester, it is 100% accurate that they portray it as rainy." (7:54) LOL laughed so hard at this 😊
Hahaha!
pure slander
I stand by my statement! Hahaha!
Love the similarities between Hoffman and Smith
It was an undercurrent non-members may not pick up, but it’s there for sure!
It's wild that not too many believing members are familiar with this story. Burried and not talked about. It was such a good documentary.
I remember following these events as they were happening. At the time Hoffmann became a celebrity, of sorts, at finding these documents.
There is significant Mormon membership in Vegas at that time, the Sun and RJ newspapers couldn't get enough of this story as it developed; and the ultimate tragedy of Sheets and Christiansen... 𝘈𝘯𝘥 𝘭𝘪𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘺 𝘯𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳 𝘴𝘢𝘸 𝘪𝘵 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘨.
I'm do glad you pointed out the problems with the excuse of agency as it used in this documentary. If that is how we see god and agency, then we are truly without help in any way by God.
Im also glad you pointed out the similarities between Hoffman and JS. Truly, two peas in a pod.
My pleasure! The similarities are frightening, and some of Hofmann’s explanations of motive could have just as easily applied to Joseph Smith.
You and NEMO are ''two peas in a pod.''.
@@richardholmes7199 thanks!
@@derralhawthorne4616 HMM HA HMM.
@@richardholmes7199 Do you think God knows everything that’s going to happen? Past, present and future? If you say yes, as the Church teaches he does, then you can not have free agency. If God knows the future, then the future is predetermined and choice and free will do not exist. Do agree or disagree? Or are you just going to make a childish “hm ha hmm” response without expanding why Darral’s comment is wrong in your eyes?
I wish to express my disagreement with some of your analysis of the effect of one’s discernment on another’s agency.
Before I do, I will identify myself as one of the September Six. I was excommunicated from the LDS Church in September of 1993 for my criticisms of modern LDS Church leaders, which I have expressed in published books and in public presentations for over 35 years. I remain an excommunicant and stand by those critiques to this day. Also, I was present during the Mark Hofmann events, was a friend of Steve Christensen, worked with him at CFS, received from him a copy of the Salamander letter on May 24, 1985, so that that the Church would not possess the only extant document which it could then hide away in one of its vaults. I am also privy to events not treated in the documentary “Murder Among the Mormons.”
There appear to be two unspoken questionable assumptions in your analysis of discernment and agency: (1) that the gift of discernment is a permanent attribute of a church member or leader and (2) that discernment has no effect on the agency of a person discerned.
I know of no scientific proof of the existence of a spiritual gift of discernment. If there is any reality to a spiritual realm, it lies by definition beyond material, measurable, demonstrable proofs. So no objective proof is possible.
Be that as it may, there is nothing in Mormon scripture to suggest that the gift of discernment is a permanent spiritual attribute of church members or church leaders. Like other gifts of the spirit, it comes and goes like the wind. I believe there’s an utterance of Jesus to that effect. The idea that church members or leaders should always be able to discern good from bad or right from wrong is not a Mormon doctrine and is patently false-although I admit it is a teaching or implication of arrogant Church leaders, like David Bednar, who speak out of self-interest and seek to encourage members to rely on them as infallible guides-which is precisely the false teaching that Mark Hofmann exploited. It is ridiculous to have expected church leaders to have detected the Hofmann forgeries. We all knew that at the time. What was even more ridiculous, then as now, was the absurd expectation that the apostles could detect forgeries-when it was obvious that they couldn’t even detect their own racism or sexism.
So, I’m not sure why anyone now would expect them to have had a gift that comes and goes like wind when their opposition to nearly every social justice issue of the 19th and 20th centuries demonstrates that LDS Church leaders are prophets who can’t prophesy, seers who can’t see, and revelators who can’t reveal.
Your second assumption is that there is no connection between discernment and agency. But there is. Suppose discernment is not based upon the spirit but upon material intelligence. For example, suppose I get word that a particular investment is not sound. Supposed I learn this from a doctor friend who tells me that his patient, the CEO of a company, has terminal cancer. Suppose, based on this improper intelligence, I decide not to make a planned $1.6 million capital investment in that company. In fact, suppose I decide now to risk violating the insider trading rules and proceed to play the short (to bet that the stock price of the company will soon fall). My discernment will trigger my action and that will have a direct consequence on the CEO and his company’s value. You’re correct that my will does not affect the CEO’s will, but my will and actions will delimit the options of the CEO and his company. A delimitation of options is an effect on agency.
Another example: Suppose there exists the spiritual gift of discernment that works only rarely, and suppose a young woman is spiritually prompted to turn down a date with a charming man who later turns out to be serial killer Ted Bundy. It may surely be argued logically that her prompting was a mere coincidence and not at all a spiritual gift. But it could not seriously be argued that her decision did not delimitTed Bundy’s murderous options and, thus, had an effect on his agency.
Thanks for your insights! I agree, there is no requirement for the prophets to have the gift of discernment constantly, or perhaps at all. As it says in scripture, to some is given (Gift A) and to others (Gift B). I'm lamenting and at the same time asking where it was in the leadership of the church at that time.
Your point on agency is taken.
You also highlighted the issue of things not being doctrinal yet expectations being set out by leaders. I couldn't agree more. There is often a disconnect between what we are taught, and what is present in LDS doctrine. The gulf between them is unfortunately a breeding ground for gaslighting and apologetics, in my view.
Thank you sincerely for taking the time to share and I will now move forward a little more enlightened. I hope you will return and disagree with me again!
I will go out on a limb here and contend with the expert. I will address the arguments he presented:
1) The gift of discernment is not continuous, therefore we should not expect the prophet to have discerned the forged documents.
2) The gift of discernment DOES interfere with agency because it limits a chooser's options.
1) a) While the gift of discernment may "come and go like the wind", I would argue that the prophet and all of his apostles being faced with forged documents that make God's true church look bad would be the time for discernment to show up. This seems like the ultimate purpose of discernment: protecting God's elect and protecting God's church.
b) God's prophets are supposed to be ordained with a "mantle" placed upon them which means that the gifts of this mantle do not come and go until the leader is released and the mantle is removed. One of the primary gifts of this mantle is discernment.
2) There is no such thing as limitless agency. For example, I can't choose to go back in time. Agency is inherently limited AND affected by every circumstance and choice everyone makes (ourselves included). Since agency cannot exist without this reality, any working definition of agency should include these parameters. Agency, therefore means the ability to choose from among the available options. And THAT agency is not something we can take away. Discernment may lead us to limit someone's options or hinder their success. But since their agency was already inherently limited and the outcome of their effort already uncertain, their situation really hasn't changed. They can choose from their available options, which is where they were before discernment was given.
I don't understand how anyone with half a brain can still believe in the church after all the revelations that disprove it, and in the church's own archives no less.
After watching yours and Pneumanosophy reaction I am now really curious and will definetly watch it.
Last but not least, another great video, keep on going. I hope your channel grows fast!
Thanks, me too! Spread the word!
Council of 50 documents are most likely what he’s referring to at the beginning. Research that topic.
Thanks, I'll have a look into it!
Want to watch this documentary!
You should!!
Fascinating information, thank you for making this video ❤️
Glad you enjoyed it!
Good analysis. There are some apologetic papers that were written by Hugh Nibley and others trying to put a positive spin on the Salamander Letter. It's amazing to go back and read those and see the contortions the apologists were twisted into trying to make it all work.
Hindsight can be a beautiful thing when it uncovers irony and such. If you have any sources for those pamphlets, i'd sure be interested!
I think what I found weird was that the documentary was framing SLC / UT as like not having domestic terror problem throughout the 1970's-1980s. Douglas Wallace in 1977 (bombing threat against LDS church), Serial Bomber in Layton, UT 1978, Unabomber: 1981, 1982, 1985, 1987 (BYU highly involved with FBI), plus the John Singer / Adam Swap stuff all happened around the same time. I get they cannot cover everything but to paint 1970's-1980's UT as this peaceful Mormon paradise is also white washing history imo
This is where my Britishness is showing! I didn't pick up on that, being so far removed. Cheers for pointing it out!
Amazing, great points.
Thanks! And thanks for the idea!
I was on my mission when this was all happening, so at the time never heard a thing about it... a fascinating documentary.
Where were you serving?
Brent Metcalfe was interviewed on Mormon Book Reviews about this subject. He discovered a book in church archives with a date of 1840. However the correct date was 1816, or 40 years after Independence. The book allegedly showed parallels of Ethan Smith and Joseph Smith and the first vision. He had also read work by Bill Hibbert on conversion epiphanies (theophanies) that showed similarities of a divine presence. He also read the Elias Smith biography. Metcalfe discovered the historian Wilfrid Paulson had notated in the book the parallel between Ethan Smith and Joseph Smith. There is no mention of the book title. The date change does however bring into question that others were having spiritual experiences before 1820. When it was discovered he had seen the book he was fired. I think what got Metcalfe ex'd was he wrote or edited a book which covered some things not in line with the historical narrative at the time.
Love these videos
Thanks!
Oh - some account reveal that 2 of the 3 Witness never felt that the Book of Mormon was never to become 'a Church..'.. Brigham Young "Who can resist so Great a Cause??" :).. something the Bahais are working at...
I loved this documentary. Mark Hoffman was a con just like Joseph Smith. If the prophets have so much discernment then why couldn’t figure out that it was all a fraud? They paid a lot money for false papers.
There is a parallel between Aug. 8, 1969 with a Morrisire prophecy, Dr. Leland Jensen's 'experience' in the Old Montana Prison, and the transfiguration of Brigham Young
We should not call anything anti-Mormon. We should call it anti-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Note - Two Personages is Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha, Father and Son...
It is a shame to see the missed opportunity church leaders had to show their gifts of the spirit to discern the forgeries. Especially when you read accounts of Christ catching the Pharisees in multiple lies and snares, amulek catching zeezrom in his lies and deceit, or Alma catching korihor etc.
I can definitely empathise with those who no longer have faith because they don't see inspired leaders fulfilling their role of seers and revelators when compared to what they read in scripture. The watchtower analogy is supposed to hold up. 😟
Helaman 8 is crazy specific, nephi discerns by revelation who committed a murder and when or how it happened. Don't play cluedo with him 😂
Do you feel there have been any recent faith building experiences of church leaders proving to be seers and revelators?
I definitely wouldn't play Cluedo with Nephi!! I wonder how many missed opportunities there has to be before we start to question whether they have the gifts at all? As for examples of church leaders acting as seers and revelators, well considering April 2020 conference started with the President of the church saying "little did I know" in reference to the Covid-19 pandemic, I would say no, not really. If you can think of any, please feel free to share!
Morrisites may be worth a good deal attention. And George Williams who had some visions and returned to England
Another great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Morrisites were led out of Salt Lake by Federal Escort.. There was a 3 Day war, a cannonball still rest in the daughters of pioneer museum in Logan, Utah
Turley. Is a turkey!
Why is it called the Salamander Letter?
The mention of a white salamander as the guiding figure to the gold plates
Maybe there could be future tours - also to Little Cottonwood Canyon, where George Willians had 'a stunning vision' - even seeing Muhammad - and a stranger - on a journey from 'the farthest Mosque' or the Old Montana Prison where Jensen realized his identity as High Priest!! Our little band (including one special Muslim/Bahai guest from LONDON) did a re-enactment of the event. We would love to connect you with this!! Allah'u'abha!! God Bless!! :) ☆£☆ -zl, western states rep, bupc - Dan 12:12, Gen 49:10
What happen no captioning? :(
I’ll look into it!
Wonder if the book he found was 'The View of The Hebrews' by Ethan Smith.? Plus BH Roberts, wrote a phamplet/paper comparing 'View of the Hebrews' to the Book of Mormon and the meetings he had with leadership re the very big problems, he was uncovering!!
No, it was 'Life of Elias Smith' as John Uhler mentioned.
Jesus Christ, spirit anointed, male sperm descendant of David. Mirza Buzurg I'Nuri. Nov. 12, 1817 - May 29, 1892.. (Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God, Messiah..)
When you ask God The Eternal Father in the name of Jesus Christ in sincerity of heart the truth from God will be given you by the power and witness of the Holy Ghost. This testimony can’t be disproved or disputed and I’m therefore eternally grateful for the obtaining of it! Nothing can change truth from God and the truth that is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
If the method you used to acquire these beliefs is fallacious, then you haven't actually acquired knowledge, you've only acquired belief.
The method requires you to presume that a god exists and that the method is reliable and delivers on its promises and that the BoM is an authentic record. It's circular reasoning. You don't get to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps in order to gain knowledge of something. The authenticity of the BoM has to be _externally_ demonstrated _first_ before anyone should take the _contents_ of the book seriously.
And I know what you're going to say so I'll just respond to it now. Faith is _also_ a part of the method. It's the first step. So since it's a part of the method, no one should presume that faith leads to knowledge until the BoM's authenticity has been externally demonstrated.
What you would be asking of me is to have faith in faith itself. What makes faith (i.e. unfounded belief) reliable, let alone faith in the BoM? Anyone can have unfounded belief in anything and look for confirmation of that belief. That doesn't lead to knowledge, that leads to a higher degree of confidence in one's unfounded belief.
Here's another question that members never think about:
If a person were to go through the steps of the method, what would they expect to find in their praying if the BoM was a 19th century fabrication?
If no answer, then how could someone tell the difference between a god that doesn't exist, and a god that does exist but that just hasn't answered you yet? Or if a god does exist, what would a "BoM is false" impression look like?
The reason why members don't consider this question is because faith does not allow for the possibility of a belief being false. This should be a gigantic red flag for anyone on the outside looking in.
None of the Mormon scripture have been proven as fraudulent. How do you respond?
???? Not sure the point your making. None of it has been proven true. In fact many things have been proven as false. There were never things like horses, steel, elephants, goats, barley and wheat and many more things in the americas which the BOM claims there were. No evidence of millions of people dying in the huge battles or their civilizations. Egyptologists have proven that the book of abraham is nothing more than funary texts and have nothing to do with Abraham. It's all fake. Great work of fiction though if that is you kind of thing
@@awilk07 ''Egyptologists have proven that the book of abraham is nothing more than funerary texts and have nothing to do with Abraham.'' That crap you typed has been debunked. Google Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube.
Not one piece of evidence has ever been found to support the book of mormon. Not a trace of the large cities it names, no ruins, no coins, no letters or documents or monuments , nothing in writing. Not even one river or mountain or any of the topography it mentions has ever been identified.
@@richardholmes7199 I watched that video and if it had any ounce of truth there would be no discussion. There was not a single ounce of evidence submitted in his video that proves anything. It is all just guessing, and speculation and creating answers/narrative to support an issue that has been disproven but refuse to believe. If any of It was true, there wouldn't have to be sideways explanations to kind of sorta make it work. The whole world would accept it and use in schools to teach history. If it was true science would support it. You shouldn't have to stretch and bend the information to fit. It would fit perfectly on its own.
@@awilk07 ?
Could you tell the truth?