To any drummer thinking that he just 'feels the music' in different time signatures must realise that he's probably spent a lot of time studying different time signatures in the past. With practice comes the ability to EVENTUALLY be able to 'feel' the different time signatures (as he's studied each one separately) and that allows him to not think about the numbers as they will all be as natural as 4/4 to him.
funny thing is that for example, after listening to bands like dream theater, dillinger escape plan, btbam and stuff for years, it's actually hard for me to stay in 4/4 for any longer period than a few bars. moreover, when i get into odd time signatures i barely can stay in one exact for a moment because lot of them come into like ordinary beats come for regular 4/4 player. thanks portnoy, rymer and richardson :/ you screwed my rythm feel :/
***** I taught Mike Portnoy how to drum and Billy Rymer. I teach drum for 1000 dollar a lesson. If you take 50 lesson, I garanti you be millionaire in 6 months with famus metal band
MusicProductionJS True, but I think the time investment required is often overstated when it comes to odd meters. If you have a good sense of quarter note pulse then you can get a lot of mileage out of learning the "feel of the barline" for certain categories, like X/8 meters can all be felt in the same way and so once you learn that turnaround the only thing left is to feel out the different lengths. X/16 meters have a similar situation and there aren't many X/4 meters you need to internalize so even a player of average skill can come to quickly "learn the language" just by playing around with it, it's something that can be easily accomplished within a year (vastly less or vastly more depending on practice time put in). Note of course that being able to feel odd meters doesn't suddenly give one the superpowers necessary to play Dillinger Escape Plan-style mathcore, speed and coordination are another thing entirely. But if your goal is to just play twisty backbeat-based math rock that's well within any drummer's grasp no matter their experience level.
The Message's Movies Agreed. A time signature is just a length of time before the phrase is repeated. Obviously learning a particular X/8 time signatures will aid your learning for all other X/8 signatures but the point I'd like to make is by learning them individually at first, this gives you the ease to combine them as used in mathcore etc. It would be very time consuming and very possibly confusing for someone who's comfortable in 7/8 to learn a song that switches between 10/8 and 9/8 etc. The majority of drummers I know who switch time signatures and play in mathcore bands just know how to play it by ear and what the guitar is playing and don't have a musical grasp of time signatures which is absolutely fine. But good point :)
MusicProductionJS Well, 10/8 doesn't quite fit what I'm saying since it's 5/4 but I think we get each other. For an example, when I try to help people get into odd meters the first thing I push is 7/8 because once they get the "feel" of how the bar ends they can very quickly play 5/8, 9/8, 13/8 and so on without having to start from square one. In that way they don't really have to bother with practicing all meters, they can just learn 3-4 types and elongate or shorten them as needed. Not really disagreeing though, just wanted to expand upon what you were saying. There's a lot of hesitation amongst new musicians when it comes to exploring this aspect of composition and I'd like to think it helps to give some direction as to how to get up to speed in a surprisingly short amount of time. They don't need to be an "advanced technique" you know?
as a drummer, when listening to dillinger songs, and even trying to figure out the drum parts, i've found myself relating the drum parts to what greg is singing at the time and basically figuring it out that way.... kind of like what billy does.... yup
Thank god I am not the only drummer with trouble counting. I play by 'feel' and explaining it as a language, or binary code, makes perfect sense to me. I am dyslectic, especially with numbers, so this gives me hope. On the other hand I'll keep practicing music traditionally, and keep learning to keep track of my count.
I'm pretty sure most of us aren't counting every single beat. I really learned polyrhythm stuff just by doing it really slowly until I got a feel for how the beat felt. You play it from feel not really by counting it.
As a self taught drum teacher of 8 years this speaks to me. I teach my students the way that it's normally though of, and then explain all the other many ways you can think of the same rhythms in different context. There's just not "one way" to approach music, or drums. Spot on. I say that the crash cymbal is mostly used as the period at the end of a sentence, but not always. And yeah, good feel definitely is beneficial, if you are blessed with that gift. :)
the block counting sistem... for me it was the natural way to feel music all my life..even before being musician i think. like comping with long and short beats. sometimes in a very basic way ..but sometimes weirder...this way feels natural and the groove is more noticable and important..danceable.. you dont count 3/8, 9/8, 12/8 etc.. mixed with x/4..etc when thinking or composing in complex music
This is cool. Obviously it isn't of any practical assistance to anyone, but it's cool to hear him talk about how he's had to learn to naturalise the rhythms used in Dillinger. They definitely do have a signature rhythmic sound/approach, in the same way Meshuggah do, although it's been adopted a lot less than the Meshuggah thing which has gone mainstream in metal and progressive music now. It's also nice to hear him give props to Chris Pennie as a pioneer of the style.
Omg I thought I was the only one who thought like this sometimes drumming is a feeling. I get counting is a great way to get technique down when you’re first learning but sometimes ya gotta let the music take over you.
Cool, I thought that might've been how they thought about timings. In a way they've just completely freed themselves from time signatures and made "abstract" rhythms as opposed to set ones.
sounds like when it comes down to it he simply just wrote the parts. he was willing to sift through the tediousness of writing and memorizing each hit. it’s a feeling first. people who learn how to play by ear understand this. they don’t learn by counting, they can’t count, they learn by memorizing the feeling. he probably learned by feeling first and then learned how to count later. anyone can play chaotically. but can they write and memorize a part that feels like chaos then execute it perfectly each time? thats more of the question to me
With all due respect to Billy, who is one of my favorite drummers, this video doesn't really teach anybody all that much. It's kind of this ambiguous, vague metaphor relating language to rhythm. Though it's apparent and true, it still isn't a very technical description of how to break down more complex rhythms into manageable "words" or "bytes". That being said, you all sound like 3rd graders talking about how 7 + 1 = 8. Whaaa?!?!?! NO WAY!!! Visual representations would do this topic justice.
BAHAHA These guys sure told you! I totally think you're just butthurt that you completely SUCK at keeping time and take offense to someone much MUCH better than you making it sound easy..... and you still don't get it. Maybe you should take up the skin flute?
1:45 - The breakdown in 'Panasonic Youth'. I love that rhythm!
To any drummer thinking that he just 'feels the music' in different time signatures must realise that he's probably spent a lot of time studying different time signatures in the past. With practice comes the ability to EVENTUALLY be able to 'feel' the different time signatures (as he's studied each one separately) and that allows him to not think about the numbers as they will all be as natural as 4/4 to him.
funny thing is that for example, after listening to bands like dream theater, dillinger escape plan, btbam and stuff for years, it's actually hard for me to stay in 4/4 for any longer period than a few bars. moreover, when i get into odd time signatures i barely can stay in one exact for a moment because lot of them come into like ordinary beats come for regular 4/4 player. thanks portnoy, rymer and richardson :/ you screwed my rythm feel :/
***** I taught Mike Portnoy how to drum and Billy Rymer. I teach drum for 1000 dollar a lesson. If you take 50 lesson, I garanti you be millionaire in 6 months with famus metal band
MusicProductionJS True, but I think the time investment required is often overstated when it comes to odd meters. If you have a good sense of quarter note pulse then you can get a lot of mileage out of learning the "feel of the barline" for certain categories, like X/8 meters can all be felt in the same way and so once you learn that turnaround the only thing left is to feel out the different lengths. X/16 meters have a similar situation and there aren't many X/4 meters you need to internalize so even a player of average skill can come to quickly "learn the language" just by playing around with it, it's something that can be easily accomplished within a year (vastly less or vastly more depending on practice time put in).
Note of course that being able to feel odd meters doesn't suddenly give one the superpowers necessary to play Dillinger Escape Plan-style mathcore, speed and coordination are another thing entirely. But if your goal is to just play twisty backbeat-based math rock that's well within any drummer's grasp no matter their experience level.
The Message's Movies
Agreed. A time signature is just a length of time before the phrase is repeated. Obviously learning a particular X/8 time signatures will aid your learning for all other X/8 signatures but the point I'd like to make is by learning them individually at first, this gives you the ease to combine them as used in mathcore etc. It would be very time consuming and very possibly confusing for someone who's comfortable in 7/8 to learn a song that switches between 10/8 and 9/8 etc. The majority of drummers I know who switch time signatures and play in mathcore bands just know how to play it by ear and what the guitar is playing and don't have a musical grasp of time signatures which is absolutely fine. But good point :)
MusicProductionJS
Well, 10/8 doesn't quite fit what I'm saying since it's 5/4 but I think we get each other. For an example, when I try to help people get into odd meters the first thing I push is 7/8 because once they get the "feel" of how the bar ends they can very quickly play 5/8, 9/8, 13/8 and so on without having to start from square one. In that way they don't really have to bother with practicing all meters, they can just learn 3-4 types and elongate or shorten them as needed.
Not really disagreeing though, just wanted to expand upon what you were saying. There's a lot of hesitation amongst new musicians when it comes to exploring this aspect of composition and I'd like to think it helps to give some direction as to how to get up to speed in a surprisingly short amount of time. They don't need to be an "advanced technique" you know?
2:17. Perfect way to say it. Find what works for YOU. Right and wrong kinda fade away if it sounds the way you want it to. Billy Rymer rocks!
as a drummer, when listening to dillinger songs, and even trying to figure out the drum parts, i've found myself relating the drum parts to what greg is singing at the time and basically figuring it out that way.... kind of like what billy does.... yup
Wouldn't have half a hope of even trying to drum the simplest Dillinger song. These guys are at the top of their game.
This guy knows what's up...
Thank god I am not the only drummer with trouble counting. I play by 'feel' and explaining it as a language, or binary code, makes perfect sense to me. I am dyslectic, especially with numbers, so this gives me hope. On the other hand I'll keep practicing music traditionally, and keep learning to keep track of my count.
I'm pretty sure most of us aren't counting every single beat. I really learned polyrhythm stuff just by doing it really slowly until I got a feel for how the beat felt. You play it from feel not really by counting it.
I learned to always count no higher than 4. 7/8= 1-2-3-4-1-2-3, 1-2-3-4-1-2-3. Works!
Good man! Counting can only go so far. Counting can help rhythm but once you HAVE rhythm the possibilities are endless
As a self taught drum teacher of 8 years this speaks to me. I teach my students the way that it's normally though of, and then explain all the other many ways you can think of the same rhythms in different context. There's just not "one way" to approach music, or drums. Spot on. I say that the crash cymbal is mostly used as the period at the end of a sentence, but not always. And yeah, good feel definitely is beneficial, if you are blessed with that gift. :)
the block counting sistem... for me it was the natural way to feel music all my life..even before being musician i think. like comping with long and short beats. sometimes in a very basic way ..but sometimes weirder...this way feels natural and the groove is more noticable and important..danceable.. you dont count 3/8, 9/8, 12/8 etc.. mixed with x/4..etc when thinking or composing in complex music
This is cool. Obviously it isn't of any practical assistance to anyone, but it's cool to hear him talk about how he's had to learn to naturalise the rhythms used in Dillinger. They definitely do have a signature rhythmic sound/approach, in the same way Meshuggah do, although it's been adopted a lot less than the Meshuggah thing which has gone mainstream in metal and progressive music now. It's also nice to hear him give props to Chris Pennie as a pioneer of the style.
Omg I thought I was the only one who thought like this sometimes drumming is a feeling. I get counting is a great way to get technique down when you’re first learning but sometimes ya gotta let the music take over you.
This band really went 3-3 for godly drummers
Summed up in a single sentence;
Billy Rymer doesn't count odd time, he rote learns.
Cool, I thought that might've been how they thought about timings. In a way they've just completely freed themselves from time signatures and made "abstract" rhythms as opposed to set ones.
Very interesting way of looking at it, I'd say.
My favorite part of "Panasonic Youth". Fuck yes.
sounds like when it comes down to it he simply just wrote the parts. he was willing to sift through the tediousness of writing and memorizing each hit. it’s a feeling first. people who learn how to play by ear understand this. they don’t learn by counting, they can’t count, they learn by memorizing the feeling. he probably learned by feeling first and then learned how to count later.
anyone can play chaotically. but can they write and memorize a part that feels like chaos then execute it perfectly each time? thats more of the question to me
We're going to have to use... Math!
true
Agree, I think the problem really is just the video title.
he basically explained Mike Mangini's NQD counting system.
Anyone else think of 8 as 7 plus 1?
So jealous of his skills
binary code... I love it.
~"basic" ways to get "familiar"~
With all due respect to Billy, who is one of my favorite drummers, this video doesn't really teach anybody all that much. It's kind of this ambiguous, vague metaphor relating language to rhythm. Though it's apparent and true, it still isn't a very technical description of how to break down more complex rhythms into manageable "words" or "bytes". That being said, you all sound like 3rd graders talking about how 7 + 1 = 8. Whaaa?!?!?! NO WAY!!! Visual representations would do this topic justice.
I agree but he is not teaching here he is just telling us his aproach.
im sorry, but that sounded extremely pretentious
So does starting an opinion with "I'm sorry..."
Ben Duncan exactly. :)
Ben Duncan Hahaha true that
BAHAHA These guys sure told you! I totally think you're just butthurt that you completely SUCK at keeping time and take offense to someone much MUCH better than you making it sound easy..... and you still don't get it. Maybe you should take up the skin flute?
Going into something in depth is not pretentious.