I bought several mint-state gold coins of the quarter-eagle through eagle varieties. I bought them as an investment with resale in mind, so I picked only graded, CAC-stickered coins. That wasn't because I can't evaluate the grade myself, but with "The Next Buyer" in mind, as a way to swat down any low-ball offers. There is an established grade, and a "2nd opinion" saying these coins (all MS65-MS67) are solid for the grade. In other words, securing the highest resale potential from what is observable in today's market.
Great discussion, Ben. One point I haven't seen mentioned: When buying or selling online, photos are often sub-par, putting both buyer and seller at a disadvantage. However, if a coin has a green CAC sticker, prospective buyer confidence goes way up; the sticker becomes a proxy indicator for for filtering out the "meh" coins offered at nearly every grade. I find the CAC service as a strong asset for the graded coin community and especially meaningful in a world of remote purchases.
I remember Daniel Malone of Portsmouth Coins & Currency Co. in one of his videos from quite some time ago….he said “The absolutely last thing we need is ANOTHER grading company….we just need to improve the grading system itself”. As a coin collector for over 30 years, I'm astonished at how rapidly the coin collecting has changed since then. It's really sad….there’s a saying “beauty is in the eye of beholder”, so I don’t need anyone to tell me their opinion that my coins is either “worthy or not worthy” on the grade. It is extremely shameful that some people are allowing the corporations to dictate what the collectors’ own coins are. Personally, the way I see it myself, CAC is just another grading company driving a wedge that is causing a division in numismatic community and dismantling the joy of the hobby.
It's more about valuing a coin for market sale. If you like your coins raw like I do that's fine but if you think your going to get 65 money for a raw 65 you are incorrect. I am not saying your wrong so do misunderstand. It needs to be graded at least to get 65 money. If it looks undergraded as a 65 then a CAC sticker will help even more to realize its value. Other than selling or buying for that matter a slab and a sticker go a long way. There is a part of me that wishes there was no such thing as a CAC sticker simply because my 65 without a sticker will not get the same as a CAC stickered coin. So we need to spend more money to prove a coin is worthy for a grade. Kind of a pain in the ass but it is the reality of coin collecting today.
I think one of the more interesting aspects of John Albanese is that while he's an excellent business man, he sometimes acts in a way that are not necessarily purely business driven. It's not that concerns over keeping CAC stickering while also rolling out CACG aren't warranted. They certainly are. It takes listening to John talk and say things like "Don't crack your gold bean holder to get it in a CACG holder." that let you know John is actually more interested in the hobby than just the business of it.
CAC does not allow collectors or non "certified" dealers to submit coins for "stickering". I wanted to submit some coins to CAC for the bean. They informed me that I had to go through a selected dealer. I attempted to utilize two dealers in So. Cal one had no physical location and wanted to meet me on the off ramp of a freeway. The other dealer routed me to a Mississippi Gold dealer that had no clue what I was talking about or looking for. I now have second thoughts about sending over $20,000. in graded PCGS coins to these "certified dealers"
I remember back when the certified coins started having their own sheet. My friend had hundreds of coins that he would sell at "sheet", but beautifully toned or ones with high eye appeal he had at premiums in his case. I remember one guy getting all up in arms about how he said he would sell at sheet, he said yes, sight unseen, how many do you want. There was a disclaimer on the sheet saying sight seen coins might sell at premiums. I watched John Albanese going thru a dealers CAc submissions and why each coin either made it or not. It was very informative and impressive. Remember he was in this from the beginning, he has seen millions of coins and has forgot more about coins than most of us will ever know. Yes the coins with the CAc bean are worth more, they have a second opinion from a professional. I have seen many coins that I shook my head on how did this coin ever get this grade.
I would pay for an Owl sticker. Even if its just to validate the grade and get your opinion in writing on a coin. Like CAC+ or Geek+ That and the Owl sticker would just be cool.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from the CU forums, it’s that CAC inevitably evokes very strong opinions from both the lovers and the haters. And just like politics these days, no one has ever convinced anyone on the other side of their view, but everyone seems convinced that if they keep trying their argument will surely prevail 😂
I personally like CAC and find them to be a very much value added product. That said, one thing that I wish they would do is to make it public what coins they previously have reviewed that they didn’t sticker. I’m not sure about their new pricing structure going forward - prices have increased fairly dramatically but are they for every coin submitted or is it just for the coins that they sticker? If they are charging the fees on every coin, then they really need to disclose what coins they’ve previously reviewed so the coin’s owner is just throwing their money away.
Albanese has said in video interviews that they don't identify "the coins that didn't make the cut" as a way to protect that coin-owner. - Imagine you buy a MS64 Morgan dollar, and paid near Greysheet price. Then you send it in to CAC, and they don't agree it's a "solid MS64" or a "superior MS64." - What happens if you get a sticker that reveals, "bottom-of-the-barrel" or someone else can look up your coin's PCGS/NGC number and see CAC didn't like it. What does that do to the retail price of your coin? Does it drop to "MS63 money" or even lower? Did *CAC's Opinion* just take money out of your pocket by instantly making your coin worth less to the next buyer than what you paid? That's why CAC doesn't reveal the coins that didn't make the cut: the coin-owner could be losing a lot more (several-hundred to several-thousand $$) than the evaluation fee from market perception. So it's better for all coin-owners, and for CAC's perception in the marketplace to place a spotlight on the positive (rather than point out the negative) in coins they assess.
I try to buy for the coin, and not the holder (or sticker), but freely admit I am also influenced by the holder (and sticker). I’ve seen many examples of holdered coins I would consider over graded, despite Ben’s comment that that doesn’t happen all that often. And I’d rather have John Albanese’s professional opinion that the coin is solid or superior for the grade, and as a result, will pay more for it, than hope it’s not over graded. My own grading instincts aren’t perfect, but my CAC submission success rate is 80% so far, and the CAC sticker gives me confidence that the coin is better than average for the grade. Other collectors must agree, otherwise you wouldn’t see CAC stickered coins selling for premiums, and CAC wouldn’t have had to suspend submissions last year for months.
Well if you have a 80 percent sticker rate I would be willing to bet either you know what your looking at or your buying really nice coins with someone else guidance because there is not very man people I know of get 80 out of 100 coins sticker
@@EricBynog-zd4rd Admittedly, a my success rate is based on a small sample size - 4 coins stickered out of 5 submitted, based on selecting what I thought had the best chances from my collection.
I'm not old enough to know either, at least from first hand experience listening to the original broadcasts, but I'm a bit of a history buff, and if I recall correctly it's "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!".
ben you explained the CAC theory well but unfortunately some people let it go in one ear and out the next. listen people all 65's are not equal. you can sit there and try to convince yourself they are, but you are only fooling yourself. the market has established that CAC coins are worth more and carry a premium. this is where the market is and where it will probably stay for the foreseeable future. if you are in collecting to potentially sell coins at a later date and make a profit, the CAC coins will be in more demand than those without a green or gold sticker. some people should look at the market and revise their thinking rather than constantly whine about CAC.
Good discussion Ben. Great points as always. Beyond the reality that every collector has to decide for themselves what is worth paying for, I see CAC having different value and impact depending on the coin issue. Originality on early American coins has not historically been a focus for PCGS and NGC beyond harshly treated coins. CAC filled that gap with dramatic results in that part of the market.
Excellent video... as someone who collects SBAs (probably the only one, LOL) there's often times I'll see coins that would probably get graded a 66, but amongst those there's definitely a difference... and always the ones with the most eye appeal get set aside! Oh, I'd love to have an owl 🦉 sticker on my slabs! Even if it had nothing to do with the grade... maybe a purchased from Old Pueblo Coin sticker... or The Coin Geek (TCG) sticker for coins in that are in a video!
I've said this before. PCGS and NGC should come out with a stickering service. Send PCGS a coin graded by NGC and if they agree with the grade, slap a sticker on it. Same for coins graded by CACG. Now it shows that two grading services concur on the grade.
15:00 - that’s the best part of the video and the crux of what CAC is However it is so widely misunderstood it has morphed into many different things for many different people The slogan seen on the front cover of every monthly greysheet “CAC stickers do not add value” has done nothing but confuse people for as long as that slogan has been there.
John has told me the reason when I asked why some coins didn't sticker. The grade is actually less than 50% of the reason why it doesn't sticker. 18th and 19th century coins have to be original looking. If you send in a blast white coin it's unlikely to get a CAC sticker. He has told me times when the coin was over graded. Once I sent in a coin that was over graded by 3 grades and got a second opinion locally that he was correct. I don't like his gold CAC stickers because they sell for a huge premium on the secondary market as if they were 3 grades higher.
He definitely likes original toning on coins. Many Franklin halves have "mint set" toning, which many collectors think is ugly, but it's easy to get them CAC stickered.
Thanks for answering my question, Ben. Just for context, I was watching your CAC sticker reveal video when I made the comment, and you were getting crushed on most of your submissions. It did make me wonder what is in it for John Albanese to sticker any coins at all going forward. Now that CACG exists, he's competing with the big two, whereas before he was putting his brand's seal of approval on their work. If it were my company, I wouldn't do that anymore. Maybe I don't understand how business works? 🤷♂
I wish there was a way of knowing if a coin I purchase has failed so I don't bother submitting it a second time. How about a brown bean for CAC submissions that didn't pass? 😆
I also hate how they don’t post that. I have a theory and that’s if they posted it they would create a 3rd level of coin pricing Cac coins Coins that haven’t been submitted Failed Cac coins Perhaps they don’t want to devalue peoples coins
I’ve bought a hanfdful of pcgs coins that were dipped, rubbed, finger prints, etc. so the might be graded correctly but those coins have problems. CAC won’t sticker those minor problem coins. It’s worth the premium offer times.
Great, informative video as always! Thanks Ben. Now this is a little off subject... There is a dot on the wall behind you underneath Mr. Owl's chest by his foot that drives me insane. I keep trying to wipe it off of my phone. Please help. 😊
One interesting effect that CaC has had is lowering the value of non-CaC coins. If most of the top 15% of coins at a grade have been CaCed then the remaining coins are assumed to be in the bottom 85%, whereas before CaC they were just part of the pool. So what the market would have had at 250 would now be 300 and 225. The natural stratification gives those coins value even if people didn't care about stickers.
Thanks for reading my comment Ben. I was just pointing out that it seems like the percentage of coins coming back stickered has fallen off a cliff in the past 6-12 months. Just based on some of your submissions that seemed like no brainers for their beauty and solid for their grade.
How many coins do you get wrong before you are competent to "properly grade" coins? New collectors are to be thrown to the whims of one opinion? And an unknown company grader?
My point of view is that for me, as an almost 60 year old guy with eye issues that has been collecting since I was 10 years old, it gives me a sense of secondary confirmation that what I’m buying is what it’s graded at by someone with better eyes than I have.
So all those professional graders at tpg companies who obviously know how to “properly grade a coin” always put a proper grade on only the very best examples of a grade ? Nope !!! And neither would any amateur who “thinks” they are a competent coin grader. There will always be a top end of any distribution and that is precisely what CAC seeks to identify !
This same goes with PQ sticker, but you don't have to pay for it. Yes you can take 100 same coins that is graded with the same grade, there would be some that looks lot more better than the other one that is the same grade. So CAC to me is like a captain onto of the con that was graded. I think this kind of stuff is getting to the point in where will it end to me . I have bought coins that were slab back in them days like the 90's from auction companies like Heritage and they would put a PQ sticker onto the slab. So the seller pick one of the best one for you and sell it to you. So now we got CAC, isn't that the same except you have to pay for it and it might be worth more dues to the premium to the coin. So to me that is like a scam to build up what the coin is worth base on what these companies say it is worth.
I've never had much respect for CAC. To be consistent, one must admit that either the grading companies are incompetent or that CAC is an unnecessary redundancy. I also think CAC excluding ANACS is criminal, and ANACS should sue them. The only way CAC could be fair and consistent is to have a rejection sticker for submitted coins that do not get a green or gold bean, maybe a black bean. Only then could their service be considered honest in my eyes.
I don’t think you have to admit the grading companies are incompetent, just that they are inconsistent. Having a second opinion has value, as Ben said using other real world scenarios outside of the coin collecting hobby/industry, and is being demonstrated by the marketplace right now.
@@alwaysseekingsilver Well, inconsistency is certainly a problem. After all, how many times has Ben cracked out a cleaned coin from PCGS to get it crossed and straight graded through NGC? It happens all the time. But it begs the question: what makes CAC any better? The answer: nothing. They are people, just like the people at PCGS and NGC whose opinion and experience is no more or less valuable than anyone else's.
@@LenHere To your point about cracking out a coin graded by PCGS as cleaned and then straight graded by NGC, it says more about NGC than anything, in my opinion, and makes my point about the second professional opinion of CAC. When 2 professional TPG’s agree on the grade, and that it’s solid or better for the grade, I feel confident in owning it, and that when the time comes to sell it, it will be recognized by the market as a superior coin. I’m not saying you have to agree, I’m saying the market overall acknowledges it.
The market for CAC was created by John Albanese. I've talked to a few other entrepreneurs who sticker coins also but remember John Albanese & David HALL started PCGS in 1986 & John broke off & started NGC IN 1987. So these guys were the kings of grading coins hence CAC being accepted in the market Place because of the initial kahonus that it took to start the grading services. FYI
Will CACG adopt a decimal scale, like 65.5 or 65.75, or will they still add a green bean to their choice 65 graded coins? Otherwise, the “problem” of where a coin really lies in the “65 window” doesn’t go away just because CACG has graded it, does it?
Were PCGS and NGC recently (?) sold to profit-oriented, non-coin-oriented corporations? To me, that may be a step backward - so I think I have less trust in the new(?) direction and motives of PCGS and NGC and the inevitable cost-cutting and profits required by stockholders. (IF TRUE) Since there is no "why" to the grade, as you said, I would welcome a second set of eyes for at least some, if not all, of my coins. Grading both sides separately, with explanations would be who I might use along with the individual graders' names. Sometimes some coins really need this more and more it may seem. Grading cost would certainly warrant including this info. as it should already exist. So why not, why the secrecy? Could it be the quality of the graders that are actually determining the value of your assets?
I work as an analyst for the US DoTREAS CB3 for about 3 years now. I also collect coins...I'm selling all my coins by 2030 and I recommend all of you who own any US currency to do the same. I love collecting and enjoy the hobby more than most things in life but come 2030 all of my collection and yall(s) will become useless and probably illegal to own. The US is 100% on board with a non tangible currency system and has been handing out contracts left and right for a few years to do so. As of a few weeks ago there are 3 major contractors with a deadline of 2027 and an implementation range of 3 years. If they can somehow find a way to remove the US currency from circulation and replace with a digital one. They WILL make physical currency ONLY THAT OF THE USA...illegal to trade for legal US currency (which will be digital). That's the only way to make the change work and stick so its the only option they have if they follow through. I hate to say it because that means my beautiful collection will be useless. So in short, doesnt matter if you want a bean or not 🤣 The US gov already set in motion the plan to negate all those beans and their worth.
I don't only say that simply because of the specific work weve been tasked with over the past year but also the production rates of currency. The US is WILLINGLY reducing its most traded bill and increasing coin production makes no sense economically unless you plan on getting rid of that currency. Coins are easy, just claim they are useless outside of their melt content. Bills however cannot be reverted back into their base materials, once a bill is printed it is forever a bill, no turning back. And currency transitions throughout history ALWAYS start with their most traded. The US $100 being the most iconic and traded bill in the world in the history of humans, means it should be increasing in production given their wide usage over other bills less likely used over seas, not decreasing. Im only saying this because I like the hobby and the people in it and dont like seeing them screwed over with a short moments notice.
I'm old enough to have dealt comic books, mostly Golden Age in the 1980s. People would say you are asking more than the price guide- I'd tell people to go find it someplace else. I'm also old enough to remember PCI and how that is connected to a major auction house with a current eye roll over slabbed video games. I'm for some common score, but being old enough to remember, seen the nonsense, and do not understand why people are so willing to take another's opinion on what they hold. I'm shocked at what the hobby has become and I'm in awe at the power of the internet to convince people to follow along and take an opinion as if were coming down off the mountain as The Ten Commandments.... I'm far more disgusted at the common man than the people buying lambos off the unwashed masses. Bring back rotary phones and black and white television- people had more common sense back then.
Think of it more as a strike zone- a pitch doesn’t have to go straight down the middle to be a strike. Or in basketball- a swish is worth the same amount as a bank shot. IMO the numbering system lends itself to faulty logic about how to look at coins conditions
It's just the human element of grading and coin appeal. pcgs or ngc are great at grading, i think sometimes they slip and undergrade, cac can catch that and throw a green or gold bean on there to help that coin. Also i think cac slips more than anything and don't bean marvelous looking coins. There's two things to know when it comes to CAC. Approving the grade, and eye appeal. Maybe a 3rd, having semi proof like or csmeo features. Which kind if goes to eye appeal
6:35 - for every grade there’s a wide variation (range might be better) That in and of itself says we need more increments If the range of MS64 from the very lowest 64 to the very highest 64 is that wide, then there aren’t enough increments by definition Me personally I think there are perhaps too many increments already if I had to pick A. Too many or B. Not enough It’s really just marketing And if the consumer (ie collector ie “investor” lol), learned his craft and bought the book before the coin. we might not see the increase in popularity and look aid drinking crowd But alas the coin hobby has become just one more tangible investment vehicle The number of “pure collectors “ has exponentially decreased
Well, not earning the sticker doesn't mean anything really. It's the same as deciding it isn't worth the extra and not sending it in at all. Does CAC keep a record of coins that don't believe deserve a grade or are in the lower tier for that grade? If so, is it searchable? If not, you would never know if something isn't up to par.
Hi Ben. Rick Tomaska also puts a sticker he calls "Everest" on the highest grade, with excellent eye appeal, for each series, not for each grade, of coins. The coins he stickers are very nice. When will we see the OPC Sticker? OPC Stickers could be for coins that are so hot from being in Tucson that they almost melt!
I've always been one who has been against CAC for the most part. I have probably 5 or 6 in my collection with the CAC sticker but I didn't buy them for that reason. I have a friend who has been thinking of getting into buying pre-1933 certified coins......I told him stay away from stickered coins because I told him he will end up paying a premium just for that sticker. I told him buy the coin not the holder or the presence of a CAC sticker.
If every buyer could perfectly grade ALL the coin types they are interested in, There wouldn't be very many buyers. Especially new ones. So I need a microscope and Sigma now, to buy coins - think of the quality of the counterfeits today. The online sales would cease to exist without independent, truthful, competent grading companies. And the understanding there may be a second set of eyes watching is sobering to graders.
So what will be worth more , the same coin in a PCGS holder with a green bean or a CAC holder with the same graded coin ? If a coin is a low end 63 will CAC still grade it a 63 ? If that same coin looks high end for the 63 grade do I need to send it back to CAC for an additional green bean on top of CAC ! Stop the madness...
One commenter was right. It's a reduntant grift. The next thing is a comapany that certifies the green CAC sticker. If eye appeal for a coin is personal then this whole sticker thing is mute. Let the 3rd party graders verify and grade the coin. Then let collectors/dealers pick what they want.
Of course anyone could come along and create a company to certify the green sticker, but ultimately the coin community/marketplace would decide whether to accept or reject it.
@@MakeNumismaticsGreatAgain That is interesting. Their website says it only accepts coins from its own dealer network and they aren't accepting new dealer accounts.
Cac grading is doing a soft launch with a small level of dealers. Once that’s over they will open to all Cac members many of whom aren’t dealers. As far as the stickering service it’s always catered to both although right now they’re closed until the grading service soft launch is completed
To me it is no different than buying a certified used car. I bought one that was previously owned by one of their mechanics. A no brainer right? WRONG. within the first week I had to take it to the shop. Turns out the parts that failed were aftermarket. Part of the certification is to verify everything is OEM. I just paid extra for nothing. Also, those stickers are just a subjective opinion. One of the members here stated that he had many coins that were refused a sticker. He broke them out and had them regraded and then they received a sticker. The same exact coins. Do I really care if my AU58 is really a 58+ or 58-?
If there is not a created market or false market then remove the cac sticker and see what it brings you or better yet buy a common date coin 1881 s Morgan that is cac approved take it to ten coin shops you will not recover no more value for that coin same applies when coin dealers say it’s a nice 64 really nice so I will sell it for 65 money the whole coin industry is so GREY and nobody wants to fix issue with how coins are traded to collectors that is my issue and same with cac
I bought several mint-state gold coins of the quarter-eagle through eagle varieties. I bought them as an investment with resale in mind, so I picked only graded, CAC-stickered coins. That wasn't because I can't evaluate the grade myself, but with "The Next Buyer" in mind, as a way to swat down any low-ball offers. There is an established grade, and a "2nd opinion" saying these coins (all MS65-MS67) are solid for the grade. In other words, securing the highest resale potential from what is observable in today's market.
Great discussion, Ben. One point I haven't seen mentioned: When buying or selling online, photos are often sub-par, putting both buyer and seller at a disadvantage. However, if a coin has a green CAC sticker, prospective buyer confidence goes way up; the sticker becomes a proxy indicator for for filtering out the "meh" coins offered at nearly every grade. I find the CAC service as a strong asset for the graded coin community and especially meaningful in a world of remote purchases.
I remember Daniel Malone of Portsmouth Coins & Currency Co. in one of his videos from quite some time ago….he said “The absolutely last thing we need is ANOTHER grading company….we just need to improve the grading system itself”. As a coin collector for over 30 years, I'm astonished at how rapidly the coin collecting has changed since then. It's really sad….there’s a saying “beauty is in the eye of beholder”, so I don’t need anyone to tell me their opinion that my coins is either “worthy or not worthy” on the grade. It is extremely shameful that some people are allowing the corporations to dictate what the collectors’ own coins are. Personally, the way I see it myself, CAC is just another grading company driving a wedge that is causing a division in numismatic community and dismantling the joy of the hobby.
It's more about valuing a coin for market sale. If you like your coins raw like I do that's fine but if you think your going to get 65 money for a raw 65 you are incorrect. I am not saying your wrong so do misunderstand. It needs to be graded at least to get 65 money. If it looks undergraded as a 65 then a CAC sticker will help even more to realize its value. Other than selling or buying for that matter a slab and a sticker go a long way. There is a part of me that wishes there was no such thing as a CAC sticker simply because my 65 without a sticker will not get the same as a CAC stickered coin. So we need to spend more money to prove a coin is worthy for a grade. Kind of a pain in the ass but it is the reality of coin collecting today.
Daniel is awesome and fair
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The shadow knows!....Keep up the good work Ben
I think one of the more interesting aspects of John Albanese is that while he's an excellent business man, he sometimes acts in a way that are not necessarily purely business driven. It's not that concerns over keeping CAC stickering while also rolling out CACG aren't warranted. They certainly are. It takes listening to John talk and say things like "Don't crack your gold bean holder to get it in a CACG holder." that let you know John is actually more interested in the hobby than just the business of it.
The power of that gold bean on there is the business of it.
CAC does not allow collectors or non "certified" dealers to submit coins for "stickering". I wanted to submit some coins to CAC for the bean. They informed me that I had to go through a selected dealer. I attempted to utilize two dealers in So. Cal one had no physical location and wanted to meet me on the off ramp of a freeway. The other dealer routed me to a Mississippi Gold dealer that had no clue what I was talking about or looking for. I now have second thoughts about sending over $20,000. in graded PCGS coins to these "certified dealers"
Thanks for sharing. Since this video CAC has opened up for direct submission - check their website for details. Thanks
I remember back when the certified coins started having their own sheet. My friend had hundreds of coins that he would sell at "sheet", but beautifully toned or ones with high eye appeal he had at premiums in his case. I remember one guy getting all up in arms about how he said he would sell at sheet, he said yes, sight unseen, how many do you want. There was a disclaimer on the sheet saying sight seen coins might sell at premiums. I watched John Albanese going thru a dealers CAc submissions and why each coin either made it or not. It was very informative and impressive. Remember he was in this from the beginning, he has seen millions of coins and has forgot more about coins than most of us will ever know. Yes the coins with the CAc bean are worth more, they have a second opinion from a professional. I have seen many coins that I shook my head on how did this coin ever get this grade.
Collectors set the market it is a business no different than art, diamonds and other collectables . Nice video
I would pay for an Owl sticker. Even if its just to validate the grade and get your opinion in writing on a coin. Like CAC+ or Geek+ That and the Owl sticker would just be cool.
I'd pay for that too!
Who
I like the idea of having a second opinion on coin grades. Maybe NGC and PCGS and put stickers on CAC graded coins now?
This is an absolutely GOLDEN idea!
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from the CU forums, it’s that CAC inevitably evokes very strong opinions from both the lovers and the haters. And just like politics these days, no one has ever convinced anyone on the other side of their view, but everyone seems convinced that if they keep trying their argument will surely prevail 😂
I personally like CAC and find them to be a very much value added product. That said, one thing that I wish they would do is to make it public what coins they previously have reviewed that they didn’t sticker. I’m not sure about their new pricing structure going forward - prices have increased fairly dramatically but are they for every coin submitted or is it just for the coins that they sticker? If they are charging the fees on every coin, then they really need to disclose what coins they’ve previously reviewed so the coin’s owner is just throwing their money away.
If you want to help the average collector release the previous submitted coins. It’s a waste of money to resend them in
Albanese has said in video interviews that they don't identify "the coins that didn't make the cut" as a way to protect that coin-owner.
- Imagine you buy a MS64 Morgan dollar, and paid near Greysheet price. Then you send it in to CAC, and they don't agree it's a "solid MS64" or a "superior MS64."
- What happens if you get a sticker that reveals, "bottom-of-the-barrel" or someone else can look up your coin's PCGS/NGC number and see CAC didn't like it. What does that do to the retail price of your coin? Does it drop to "MS63 money" or even lower? Did *CAC's Opinion* just take money out of your pocket by instantly making your coin worth less to the next buyer than what you paid?
That's why CAC doesn't reveal the coins that didn't make the cut: the coin-owner could be losing a lot more (several-hundred to several-thousand $$) than the evaluation fee from market perception. So it's better for all coin-owners, and for CAC's perception in the marketplace to place a spotlight on the positive (rather than point out the negative) in coins they assess.
It makes a lot of sense. As a collector I’d love to have access to that information but understand why they don’t publish it
I try to buy for the coin, and not the holder (or sticker), but freely admit I am also influenced by the holder (and sticker). I’ve seen many examples of holdered coins I would consider over graded, despite Ben’s comment that that doesn’t happen all that often. And I’d rather have John Albanese’s professional opinion that the coin is solid or superior for the grade, and as a result, will pay more for it, than hope it’s not over graded. My own grading instincts aren’t perfect, but my CAC submission success rate is 80% so far, and the CAC sticker gives me confidence that the coin is better than average for the grade. Other collectors must agree, otherwise you wouldn’t see CAC stickered coins selling for premiums, and CAC wouldn’t have had to suspend submissions last year for months.
Well said. I don't need the sticker but I cannot deny it gives me confidence and added liquidity.
Albanese doesn’t know color
@@evenruderanger7617 as in toned coins?
Well if you have a 80 percent sticker rate I would be willing to bet either you know what your looking at or your buying really nice coins with someone else guidance because there is not very man people I know of get 80 out of 100 coins sticker
@@EricBynog-zd4rd Admittedly, a my success rate is based on a small sample size - 4 coins stickered out of 5 submitted, based on selecting what I thought had the best chances from my collection.
I enjoy hearing your responses to the tougher questions. Good stuff!
I'm not old enough to know either, at least from first hand experience listening to the original broadcasts, but I'm a bit of a history buff, and if I recall correctly it's "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!".
ben you explained the CAC theory well but unfortunately some people let it go in one ear and out the next. listen people all 65's are not equal. you can sit there and try to convince yourself they are, but you are only fooling yourself. the market has established that CAC coins are worth more and carry a premium. this is where the market is and where it will probably stay for the foreseeable future. if you are in collecting to potentially sell coins at a later date and make a profit, the CAC coins will be in more demand than those without a green or gold sticker. some people should look at the market and revise their thinking rather than constantly whine about CAC.
Good discussion Ben. Great points as always. Beyond the reality that every collector has to decide for themselves what is worth paying for, I see CAC having different value and impact depending on the coin issue. Originality on early American coins has not historically been a focus for PCGS and NGC beyond harshly treated coins. CAC filled that gap with dramatic results in that part of the market.
I think just the fact alone that the grading scale is continuous is one of the very fun, appealing, and interesting aspects of collecting.
Do dealers have access to the database of "failed" CAC submissions?
Excellent video... as someone who collects SBAs (probably the only one, LOL) there's often times I'll see coins that would probably get graded a 66, but amongst those there's definitely a difference... and always the ones with the most eye appeal get set aside!
Oh, I'd love to have an owl 🦉 sticker on my slabs! Even if it had nothing to do with the grade... maybe a purchased from Old Pueblo Coin sticker... or The Coin Geek (TCG) sticker for coins in that are in a video!
Good points, good video and I agree with you on these points.
I've said this before. PCGS and NGC should come out with a stickering service. Send PCGS a coin graded by NGC and if they agree with the grade, slap a sticker on it. Same for coins graded by CACG. Now it shows that two grading services concur on the grade.
15:00 - that’s the best part of the video and the crux of what CAC is
However it is so widely misunderstood it has morphed into many different things for many different people
The slogan seen on the front cover of every monthly greysheet
“CAC stickers do not add value” has done nothing but confuse people for as long as that slogan has been there.
John has told me the reason when I asked why some coins didn't sticker. The grade is actually less than 50% of the reason why it doesn't sticker. 18th and 19th century coins have to be original looking. If you send in a blast white coin it's unlikely to get a CAC sticker. He has told me times when the coin was over graded. Once I sent in a coin that was over graded by 3 grades and got a second opinion locally that he was correct. I don't like his gold CAC stickers because they sell for a huge premium on the secondary market as if they were 3 grades higher.
He definitely likes original toning on coins. Many Franklin halves have "mint set" toning, which many collectors think is ugly, but it's easy to get them CAC stickered.
Thanks for answering my question, Ben. Just for context, I was watching your CAC sticker reveal video when I made the comment, and you were getting crushed on most of your submissions. It did make me wonder what is in it for John Albanese to sticker any coins at all going forward. Now that CACG exists, he's competing with the big two, whereas before he was putting his brand's seal of approval on their work. If it were my company, I wouldn't do that anymore. Maybe I don't understand how business works? 🤷♂
All fair questions.
Albanese will not be actively grading coins- just stickering for now.
Truth is indeed stranger than fiction
I wish there was a way of knowing if a coin I purchase has failed so I don't bother submitting it a second time. How about a brown bean for CAC submissions that didn't pass? 😆
I also hate how they don’t post that. I have a theory and that’s if they posted it they would create a 3rd level of coin pricing
Cac coins
Coins that haven’t been submitted
Failed Cac coins
Perhaps they don’t want to devalue peoples coins
A participation 🏆 trophy sticker…
I’ve bought a hanfdful of pcgs coins that were dipped, rubbed, finger prints, etc. so the might be graded correctly but those coins have problems. CAC won’t sticker those minor problem coins. It’s worth the premium offer times.
Great, informative video as always! Thanks Ben. Now this is a little off subject...
There is a dot on the wall behind you underneath Mr. Owl's chest by his foot that drives me insane. I keep trying to wipe it off of my phone. Please help. 😊
One interesting effect that CaC has had is lowering the value of non-CaC coins. If most of the top 15% of coins at a grade have been CaCed then the remaining coins are assumed to be in the bottom 85%, whereas before CaC they were just part of the pool. So what the market would have had at 250 would now be 300 and 225. The natural stratification gives those coins value even if people didn't care about stickers.
I'm sure the investors who bought slabbed coins sight-unseen around 1990 (and vastly overpaid for their coins) would have loved a CAC sticker service.
Thanks for reading my comment Ben. I was just pointing out that it seems like the percentage of coins coming back stickered has fallen off a cliff in the past 6-12 months. Just based on some of your submissions that seemed like no brainers for their beauty and solid for their grade.
Thanks for the discussion.
I don't like CAC. For me, I feel it is becoming popular because many collectors don't take the time to learn to properly grade a coin themselves.
How many coins do you get wrong before you are competent to "properly grade" coins?
New collectors are to be thrown to the whims of one opinion? And an unknown company grader?
My point of view is that for me, as an almost 60 year old guy with eye issues that has been collecting since I was 10 years old, it gives me a sense of secondary confirmation that what I’m buying is what it’s graded at by someone with better eyes than I have.
So all those professional graders at tpg companies who obviously know how to “properly grade a coin” always put a proper grade on only the very best examples of a grade ? Nope !!! And neither would any amateur who “thinks” they are a competent coin grader. There will always be a top end of any distribution and that is precisely what CAC seeks to identify !
Got a B+ in math in high school based on the actual score of averaged papers
Another great video Ben!!!
John Albanese was the main guy behind NGC startup back in 1987.
This same goes with PQ sticker, but you don't have to pay for it. Yes you can take 100 same coins that is graded with the same grade, there would be some that looks lot more better than the other one that is the same grade. So CAC to me is like a captain onto of the con that was graded. I think this kind of stuff is getting to the point in where will it end to me . I have bought coins that were slab back in them days like the 90's from auction companies like Heritage and they would put a PQ sticker onto the slab. So the seller pick one of the best one for you and sell it to you. So now we got CAC, isn't that the same except you have to pay for it and it might be worth more dues to the premium to the coin. So to me that is like a scam to build up what the coin is worth base on what these companies say it is worth.
Thank you Ben!!
As always, a great video. Thanks.
Is an MS65 with a CAC sticker on it usually worth more, the same or less then an MS66 without the sticker?
Depends on the series, but the snickered coin would usually be somewhat less.
Great video.
I've never had much respect for CAC. To be consistent, one must admit that either the grading companies are incompetent or that CAC is an unnecessary redundancy. I also think CAC excluding ANACS is criminal, and ANACS should sue them. The only way CAC could be fair and consistent is to have a rejection sticker for submitted coins that do not get a green or gold bean, maybe a black bean. Only then could their service be considered honest in my eyes.
I don’t think you have to admit the grading companies are incompetent, just that they are inconsistent. Having a second opinion has value, as Ben said using other real world scenarios outside of the coin collecting hobby/industry, and is being demonstrated by the marketplace right now.
@@alwaysseekingsilver Well, inconsistency is certainly a problem. After all, how many times has Ben cracked out a cleaned coin from PCGS to get it crossed and straight graded through NGC? It happens all the time. But it begs the question: what makes CAC any better? The answer: nothing. They are people, just like the people at PCGS and NGC whose opinion and experience is no more or less valuable than anyone else's.
@@LenHere To your point about cracking out a coin graded by PCGS as cleaned and then straight graded by NGC, it says more about NGC than anything, in my opinion, and makes my point about the second professional opinion of CAC. When 2 professional TPG’s agree on the grade, and that it’s solid or better for the grade, I feel confident in owning it, and that when the time comes to sell it, it will be recognized by the market as a superior coin. I’m not saying you have to agree, I’m saying the market overall acknowledges it.
The market for CAC was created by John Albanese. I've talked to a few other entrepreneurs who sticker coins also but remember John Albanese & David HALL started PCGS in 1986 & John broke off & started NGC IN 1987. So these guys were the kings of grading coins hence CAC being accepted in the market Place because of the initial kahonus that it took to start the grading services. FYI
Will CACG adopt a decimal scale, like 65.5 or 65.75, or will they still add a green bean to their choice 65 graded coins? Otherwise, the “problem” of where a coin really lies in the “65 window” doesn’t go away just because CACG has graded it, does it?
They will do plus grades but no not a decimal system
We do not want that.
Comment down below.
Were PCGS and NGC recently (?) sold to profit-oriented, non-coin-oriented corporations?
To me, that may be a step backward - so I think I have less trust in the new(?) direction and motives of PCGS and NGC and the inevitable cost-cutting and profits required by stockholders. (IF TRUE)
Since there is no "why" to the grade, as you said, I would welcome a second set of eyes for at least some, if not all, of my coins.
Grading both sides separately, with explanations would be who I might use along with the individual graders' names. Sometimes some coins really need this more and more it may seem. Grading cost would certainly warrant including this info. as it should already exist. So why not, why the secrecy?
Could it be the quality of the graders that are actually determining the value of your assets?
Were PCGS and NGC recently (?) sold to profit-oriented, non-coin-oriented corporations?
Yes. ANACS is the only family-owned company now.
I work as an analyst for the US DoTREAS CB3 for about 3 years now. I also collect coins...I'm selling all my coins by 2030 and I recommend all of you who own any US currency to do the same. I love collecting and enjoy the hobby more than most things in life but come 2030 all of my collection and yall(s) will become useless and probably illegal to own. The US is 100% on board with a non tangible currency system and has been handing out contracts left and right for a few years to do so. As of a few weeks ago there are 3 major contractors with a deadline of 2027 and an implementation range of 3 years. If they can somehow find a way to remove the US currency from circulation and replace with a digital one. They WILL make physical currency ONLY THAT OF THE USA...illegal to trade for legal US currency (which will be digital). That's the only way to make the change work and stick so its the only option they have if they follow through. I hate to say it because that means my beautiful collection will be useless.
So in short, doesnt matter if you want a bean or not 🤣 The US gov already set in motion the plan to negate all those beans and their worth.
I don't only say that simply because of the specific work weve been tasked with over the past year but also the production rates of currency. The US is WILLINGLY reducing its most traded bill and increasing coin production makes no sense economically unless you plan on getting rid of that currency. Coins are easy, just claim they are useless outside of their melt content. Bills however cannot be reverted back into their base materials, once a bill is printed it is forever a bill, no turning back. And currency transitions throughout history ALWAYS start with their most traded. The US $100 being the most iconic and traded bill in the world in the history of humans, means it should be increasing in production given their wide usage over other bills less likely used over seas, not decreasing. Im only saying this because I like the hobby and the people in it and dont like seeing them screwed over with a short moments notice.
Very cool Q&A.
I'm old enough to have dealt comic books, mostly Golden Age in the 1980s.
People would say you are asking more than the price guide- I'd tell people to go find it someplace else.
I'm also old enough to remember PCI and how that is connected to a major auction house with a current eye roll over slabbed video games.
I'm for some common score, but being old enough to remember, seen the nonsense, and do not understand why people are so willing to take another's opinion on what they hold.
I'm shocked at what the hobby has become and I'm in awe at the power of the internet to convince people to follow along and take an opinion as if were coming down off the mountain as The Ten Commandments....
I'm far more disgusted at the common man than the people buying lambos off the unwashed masses.
Bring back rotary phones and black and white television- people had more common sense back then.
If there are grades within a grade, why can't they be graded as such, i.e., ms 65.9, 65.8 etc.
Think of it more as a strike zone- a pitch doesn’t have to go straight down the middle to be a strike. Or in basketball- a swish is worth the same amount as a bank shot.
IMO the numbering system lends itself to faulty logic about how to look at coins conditions
I thought they quit doing grading coins at CAC. So are they still grading coins?.😊
Is cac still not accepting sticker memborships? Thanks for the video Ben.
thankfully "WINGS" stickers on hammered and ancient coins never took off.
It's just the human element of grading and coin appeal. pcgs or ngc are great at grading, i think sometimes they slip and undergrade, cac can catch that and throw a green or gold bean on there to help that coin. Also i think cac slips more than anything and don't bean marvelous looking coins. There's two things to know when it comes to CAC. Approving the grade, and eye appeal. Maybe a 3rd, having semi proof like or csmeo features. Which kind if goes to eye appeal
Buy the coin; not the holder!
6:35 - for every grade there’s a wide variation (range might be better)
That in and of itself says we need more increments
If the range of MS64 from the very lowest 64 to the very highest 64 is that wide, then there aren’t enough increments by definition
Me personally I think there are perhaps too many increments already if I had to pick A. Too many or B. Not enough
It’s really just marketing
And if the consumer (ie collector ie “investor” lol), learned his craft and bought the book before the coin. we might not see the increase in popularity and look aid drinking crowd
But alas the coin hobby has become just one more tangible investment vehicle
The number of “pure collectors “ has exponentially decreased
No, we certainly do not need that.Too objective already.
Well, not earning the sticker doesn't mean anything really. It's the same as deciding it isn't worth the extra and not sending it in at all. Does CAC keep a record of coins that don't believe deserve a grade or are in the lower tier for that grade? If so, is it searchable? If not, you would never know if something isn't up to par.
Hi Ben. Rick Tomaska also puts a sticker he calls "Everest" on the highest grade, with excellent eye appeal, for each series, not for each grade, of coins. The coins he stickers are very nice. When will we see the OPC Sticker? OPC Stickers could be for coins that are so hot from being in Tucson that they almost melt!
CAC probably had to not charge people to get people to even try their service to start.
I've always been one who has been against CAC for the most part. I have probably 5 or 6 in my collection with the CAC sticker but I didn't buy them for that reason. I have a friend who has been thinking of getting into buying pre-1933 certified coins......I told him stay away from stickered coins because I told him he will end up paying a premium just for that sticker. I told him buy the coin not the holder or the presence of a CAC sticker.
If every buyer could perfectly grade ALL the coin types they are interested in, There wouldn't be very many buyers. Especially new ones. So I need a microscope and Sigma now, to buy coins - think of the quality of the counterfeits today. The online sales would cease to exist without independent, truthful, competent grading companies. And the understanding there may be a second set of eyes watching is sobering to graders.
Buy the coin, not the holder is solid advice
Second opinion is always better. Problem is now we are losing that. The busier they get the less stickering they will be doing
This is why I collect paper currency
So what will be worth more , the same coin in a PCGS holder with a green bean or a CAC holder with the same graded coin ? If a coin is a low end 63 will CAC still grade it a 63 ? If that same coin looks high end for the 63 grade do I need to send it back to CAC for an additional green bean on top of CAC ! Stop the madness...
"If a coin is a low end 63 will CAC still grade it a 63 ?"
No, they will grade it as a 62, which Albanese said directly in Ben's interview.
Who certifies CAC?
They have a list on their site of dealers
Sorry, lunch and dinner is lundin.
One commenter was right. It's a reduntant grift. The next thing is a comapany that certifies the green CAC sticker. If eye appeal for a coin is personal then this whole sticker thing is mute. Let the 3rd party graders verify and grade the coin. Then let collectors/dealers pick what they want.
Of course anyone could come along and create a company to certify the green sticker, but ultimately the coin community/marketplace would decide whether to accept or reject it.
@@MichaelC_22 i don't think he understands how economics works...
You can't send coins to CAC unless you're a dealer, it's idiotic.
I'm not a dealer and I have a CAC account. My friends do too who aren't dealers.
@@MakeNumismaticsGreatAgain That is interesting. Their website says it only accepts coins from its own dealer network and they aren't accepting new dealer accounts.
Cac grading is doing a soft launch with a small level of dealers. Once that’s over they will open to all Cac members many of whom aren’t dealers. As far as the stickering service it’s always catered to both although right now they’re closed until the grading service soft launch is completed
@@tylonnplatinumthe3rd659 None of that info is on their website.
It's a money grab. ANA needs to create a brand new system
Exactly
Tooooooooo many mom and pop CAC coins out there!!!
Why does CAC cater to Dealers?
All about the money. Just like the third party graders. Big dealers will always get better treatment. Just the way it is.
The real reason is that CAC is not a huge operation, so limiting submissions to member-dealers is a way to make the workload feasible.
Don’t worry - eventually the actual coin will trickle down to an actual collector 👀
To me it is no different than buying a certified used car. I bought one that was previously owned by one of their mechanics. A no brainer right? WRONG. within the first week I had to take it to the shop. Turns out the parts that failed were aftermarket. Part of the certification is to verify everything is OEM. I just paid extra for nothing. Also, those stickers are just a subjective opinion. One of the members here stated that he had many coins that were refused a sticker. He broke them out and had them regraded and then they received a sticker. The same exact coins. Do I really care if my AU58 is really a 58+ or 58-?
Ask anyone with a registry set...
The price for CAC coins is not a false market. The price for CAC coins is set by the market like every thing else.
EXACTLY!!! And usually the market will change its mind
CAC will be the #4 best TPGS when they start. Will they overtake ANACS, NGC, and PCGS? Who knows.........
I give Ben a Pinto Bean on this video!
If there is not a created market or false market then remove the cac sticker and see what it brings you or better yet buy a common date coin 1881 s Morgan that is cac approved take it to ten coin shops you will not recover no more value for that coin same applies when coin dealers say it’s a nice 64 really nice so I will sell it for 65 money the whole coin industry is so GREY and nobody wants to fix issue with how coins are traded to collectors that is my issue and same with cac
I have coins with your owl on them.
UNCLE JIMMY! HAHAHAHA
A.I. will be grading coins in the near future 🤫
I think AI can definitely look at the number of contact marks... but won't be able to grade eye appeal in my opinion!
I don't buy graded coins so my opinion don't mean much but I think the idea of cac stickers is lame
#AlbaneseDoesntKnowColor
Give it time , he will think of away to make money out of it 😂
Don’t simp for grading companies. So tired of seeing commenters defending those fiends.
I can attest that PCGS has never over-graded my coins. Ever. Everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr............................
I won't buy a CAC.....just not worth it to me
I have never bought a coin for a flashy holder and a green beene. I buy the coin not stickers and holders.