Fog of War Chess | GM Hikaru's First Ever Game
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- Опубликовано: 25 сен 2020
- GM Hikaru Nakamura learns how to play Fog of War vs IM Levy Rozman
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Okkkk...
Mr. Hikaru Nakamura, when doing mental calculations of plausible/possible lines, do you mentally visualize the chess pieces in 2-Dimensional form, as is the case for numerous virtual chess games, or in 3-Dimensional form, as is the case for in-person gameplay?
Levi seeing Hikaru's side right?
a
500th like
"I lost because you didn't play the right move, why are you so bad at this game."
The classic toxic super GM kekw
naa man, happens in poker all the time, its legit reasoning, you literally can win because and only because you played badly, now that deoesnt mean playing badly is a good strategy because it isnt in the long term.
@@mcpartridgeboy well unless you reason that playing 'badly' in a certain situation will mislead the opponent in a way that makes him lose, then it's not playing badly.
@@sagov9 It is definatly playing badly in poker , its just you need to ajust for that, like in poker when your playing bad players its pretty simple you just wait for good cards and value bet, maybe not semi blind chess but its hard to believe a solid game plan is worse than a goofy move.
@@mcpartridgeboy You're missing my point. If you know how the opponent thinks, you can use 'suboptimal' play to mislead him. It's a valid strategy in games like this and poker, and not 'goofy' at all.
The funniest fact, that when you hang your piece, your opponent might think that it is protected from the fog. So some risky moves can be strong in differnt cases
Yep
Though usually people trade when they see a piece unless they're capturing with the queen or rook then they'll be more hesitant
Bluffing in chess
Yeah they talked about exactly this in the video.
I mean if you're trading a bishop or a knight for any of their pieces you're usually fine in most cases. Would be more worried about queens though
In this game, psychology is more important than tactics.
Yep exactly it yeah.
Eh I say LOS is everything. Not having sight in this game is the equivalent of death.
this should be another version of poker.
Psychology is the most important part of true tactics. Asymmetrical information ftw
Simply not true
Watching masters of chess playing this game is hilarious. Years of devotion and training out the window in a way no other version of the game has ever done.
Chess960 will throw that training out the window too
@@Jjb-gk4ce 960 eventually simplifies into a *relatively* normal game after trading. It throws things off in the openings, but you still have full info of the opponent's moves. This forces them to think about the whole game differently.
What about 5D chess
It is actually 5D chess, but if you look it at that way normal chess is 3D
@@kissanoita255 Is it really? I mean, you do play on a time axis, but there is no such wacky things you can do with timelines.
Hikaru: "Why do you suck so bad?!?"
Levy: *wins Twice*
xD
repent unto God
This is a cool variant, not even gonna try and wrap my head around the strategy involved but it seems like bishops should be OP due to their scoping ability
And knights too because of their unique moving pattern without getting visible
Yeah, seems like a good strategy would be to fianchetto both bishops and keep rooks on open files to maximize visibility.
Fianchetto hippo position seems to be the best opening position.
Remus Sayed maybe with more active knights
Knights can sneak up on the queen tho
“The capture sound still exists. Otherwise it does not.”
-Levy 2020
This sounds like agadmator quote. 😂
@@rhettzkie Sure does haha. Agadmator's best moments.
Levy* not Levi Ackerman from AoT
@@wcg3928 oh I got autocorrected lol
repent unto God
It would be cool to see the strategies that DeepMind or Stockfish would come up with to play fog of war chess.
It'd be cool. You can't use either of them though, since they both rely heavily on traversing the game tree, which you can't do with so much imperfect information. You look one move ahead and the game tree instantly scatters and you're left with nothing.
Alpha Zero could possibly make some tiny sense of the game since it consists of two components and can therefore remove one (the Monte Carlo Search Tree) without driving itself into complete irrelevance. It would then rely completely on its neural network making predictions for the next move only and would most likely as a result be extremely stupid and light years from the Alpha Zero we know. Especially since its psychological perception of the game is gathered through self play, so it would probably be pretty bad at predicting the moves of a human player. On top of that, it doesn't track the move history, since it's irrelevant in a normal game of chess where all you need is the current board state to make your decisions. In a game like this (similar to poker), you need the move history in order to look for patterns that can help you get a broad sense of the board position.
Well, AlphaStar managed to play StarCraft, which is mechanically+environmentally more complex than chess due to having fog of war and being real-time, and so was the next logical environment for DeepMind's exploration of AI playing games. So DeepMind has already explored an learning neural network AI traversing an environment with incomplete information.
That said, there was also a sort of consensus about AlphaStar's performance in StarCraft that it still wasn't quite truly the top grandmaster-professional player level in terms of tactics, but rather just that it was able to brute force the best of players through raw, mechanical skill in its management abilities, and that anyone that could execute a unique enough plan solidly enough could still blindside the AI if it wasn't something the neural net could account for (even over thousands of training hours and years worth of knowledge).
However, given the more limited scope of the movements available in chess compared to a video game RTS, I'd imagine that a DeepMind-like AI would be able to handle it rather well, once it was given enough information and training time.
@@TheAmazingCowpig Or said in another way: (I might have been a bit foggy in my explanation) Starcraft is close to being deterministic, meaning that you can look hundreds or even thousands of "moves" ahead and have a pretty good sense of what the game state looks like. On the other hand looking just 2 or 3 moves ahead in this chess variant and you have absolutely no idea of what the game state is. You could be up 3 pieces or you could be down a queen.
muchograndeyolatengo I don't think Starcraft would be significantly more deterministic than Fog of War chess. Any time a player does not have vision of their opponent, they have incomplete information about how to act; information gathering is a core facet of all strategy games, from this version of chess to video game RTSs. 2 or 3 moves in FoW chess could be equated to 2 minutes into the future in a Starcraft game.
While the exact rules and consequences differ, DeepMind has already created the AI that tackles having incomplete information about the game state (as a progression from AlphaZero that did have complete information about the game state at all times). So, a DeepMind AI for FoW chess would probably look something similar to AlphaStar.
@@TheAmazingCowpig
The only incomplete information the AI has in Starcraft is the opponent's build order. Everything else is perfectly visible (including all the battles). So it can excel at everythign else through self training (build order, resoruce management, micro etc.)
And if I recall from the matches I've seen, the AI seriously lacks in strategic understanding but makes up for it in perfect micro. We are talking about two completely different domains here. You can' really represent a game of FoW chess with a tree. It's just not possible. The only thing you can train is a standard opening, but that's really exploitable unless you add noise to the input vector or do some other kind of magic. You can't train it to understand the move patterns of human opponents of different strengths through self play. Because humans are not gonna think the same way, which again makes it inherently exploitable.
But we're talking in circles here. I'm not gonna convince you and you are not gonna convince me. So I'll let you have the last say and then I'm gonna retreat :)
Hikaru "Why dont you play better so i can predict your moves/the position" "This is frustrating"
Ikr xD
The enemy can't predicy you if you don't know what you are doing, tsunzu probably
repent unto God
Feel like Hikaru just couldn't unlearn(in only 2 games who could tbf) some things that just don't apply when you can't see. You can see him running through a ton of positions in his head while Levy is just kind of chilling, which I find pretty hilarious.
Levy is me when I am playing casually with limited time. ;D
My opponent tries so hard to understand my moves while I just go with the flow.
However if there is no time limit, I would get beaten easily.
yeah fr lol
repent unto God
so weird seeing Levy just talk to Hikaru for 15 minutes without Hikaru ever saying anything back
I don't think he speaks English
@@ijemand5672 I laughed way too hard on this reply 😂
repent unto God
@@ijemand5672 lol😂😂😂
Hikaru’s eyes roll back into his head to look at the crystal ball inside his head
“I think I know the exact positions, btw”
XD and then looses 2 games while his chat calls him toxic
repent unto God
@@Baggerz182 no
"why are you so bad?"
5 seconds later...
**Gets obliterated**
Capturing the king without enemy knowing that he was in check is like getting backdoored by evelynn
Xd
when she oneshots your adc and leaves
Wtf, lol comments here?
u mean flanked? coz backdoor is taking the nexus right.
@@neilpanganiban272 nah, you can backdoor as evelynn cuz she can go invisible given that the inhib and nexus turrets are down
"When playing others streamers streamsniping isnt a problem" - Levi, when Hikaru clearly has Levis stream open on secret monitor on ceiling :P
Lol
That Advance Wars thumbnail is actually golden.
yep, i clicked because of that
Yellow guy was OP
@@achillesmichael5705 wait what does he do again? Like all his units are stronger, or smth? All i remember is that his co power gives me headaches.
My god the Nostalgia.... I loved that game
@@nvat5569 we all did u.u
Wow, this is like real life war. Information of position is the most important. And then formulating strategy out of the information while predicting opponent moves
Yep. This is more like real war. You dont have all the info in a war. Just like you said, the more info you have the better your chances of winning. Unlike regular chess where everyone can see what's going on
well in ancient warfare guerilla tactics were less often used, and opponent armies met on the open battlefield. So this is more like modern warfare, chess is like ancient warfare
The board game Stratego has similar elements to warfare and this variant as well.
@VIKING AT THE BRIDGE WHOM GAVE HIS BALLS TO BRITS First of all, Sun Tzu wasn't from a million years ago lol. are you not English native speaker? He died about 2500 years ago. But yea, of course there were spies, etc. in ancient warfare. But again, chess is *more* like ancient warfare than modern warfare.
@VIKING AT THE BRIDGE WHOM GAVE HIS BALLS TO BRITS irony is not really a good thing to use when trying to correct someone
Hikaru : "Levy why are you so bad at this game"
Also Hikaru: loses twice in a row
"Your queen was just there in my territory the whole time!"
Hikaru: "Mhm... Yeah... Sure..."
I love how Hikaru was expecting Levy to play theory, got played, and then got rude with him to protect his ego. This variant looks sooo fun.
"Got rude" is a bit of an over reaction. I don't think he was being rude at all. Just trying to understand the thought process.
He said “ok but why are you so bad at the game.” Stop defending this toxic GM. Such a fragile ego
@Anonymous secret yeahhhhh don’t know if “toxic” is the right word when at the most he’s just bantering with a friend. You can stop talking like yesterday.
@RamblingDuck cry more
@RamblingDuck yeah man you're right... stop rambling now lol
At 13:27 it seems a very big advantage to exchange queens deep in opponent's territory. Beyond them losing castling rights, you get to see a substantial part of their current position while they see nothing of yours.
The queen effectively becomes your scout, where it's better to use it to get valuable info than take things or pressure.
repent unto God
It's really funny when Hikaru's thinking. Seems like he's possessed or something.
He's trying to access that part of his brain like: 👀 🧠 🔚
Ceiling demon
@@kingjensen8091 using stockfish on the ceiling WeirdChamp
Now we'll just wait for 4 Player Fog of War Chess.
2v2 would be great. You team up with the person opposite you, you can see their pieces and the squares they can see, and you have to capture both the other kings to win.
6v6
Why not battleground for 100 ppl? Xd
Gotta love the “Ah! Jesus!” When levy sees the queen just chillin in between all the pawns
hikaru should try advance war
This was such a deep cut to my childhood. I haven’t thought of this game in years
I was about to comment this. make a map with pre deployed units!
Agreed. Seconded.
I would love this. I wonder if he has ever heard of Advance Wars.
Colin Sasha... Grit... great game.
Levy is having way too much fun and hikaru is just calculating the whole time lol
repent unto God
I'm so, SO HAPPY that literally ANYONE is acknowledging Advance Wars!
I wish you could see the pieces move through the fog of war, like a rook sweeping past a queen's vision
repent unto God
@@Baggerz182 no
Yeah, that would be cool.
I love seeing Levy be the master here. Won't be long before Hikaru shifts his thinking a bit and gets insane. Much like that excellent thumbnail. Advance Wars is one of my favorite game series.
"I feel like after among us, this will be the next thing"
levy the fortune teller
Apparently its not that fun
@@rama7731 It's probably more fun when you're talking to the other person, because then you can bluff and such things. Also, it could be fun to combine this with 4-player chess, there's no chance that you could predict what every player is doing, so you'd just have to play as well as possible with the information you could see. Especially if you also couldn't see if another player lost, and potentially also their colours, so you'd only see your own pieces and the enemy pieces, with no way to tell which player is threatening you.
Amongus amonus
Look it where we are today
Hikaru: “I’m pretty sure I know exactly where your pieces are”
Also Hikaru: 7:52
Lmao
Hahahahaaa
I absolutely love that ADVANCE WARS thumbnail reference 11/10
3:25 these eyes are blowing
Every day we stray closer to YuGiOh
I was thinking something similar the other day. About the fan made pieces like the unicorn and pegasus and how you can add more stuff up till you end with a MOBA or RTS game 🤯
lol
When we going to get a chess anime?xD
@@mightybatillo that's the downside of becoming popular nowadays, if you consider it a downside.. On the bright side, Chess is becoming more popular.
Wdym yugioh xD
God I was so hoping Hikaru was actually playing AW2 PVP
Rip
Damn I love those games.
69 likes
Same
>Levy trying to explain the rules
>Hikaru interrupting him "YEAh yeah yeah I understand"
>Doesn't understand
They just had a completely different game in their heads on 15:47 GMs are no joke.
Levy is not a GM
I have a strategy for this version, where you move all pawns just 1 space up and move the rooks over to one side. Everything is defended and you let your opponent do the mistakes. Then you strike and push Harry the H pawn.
Arnold, Ben, Chad, Darrel, Ernie, Frank, Garry, Harold (Harry)
Until that becomes the dominant strategy and people counter that.
Then gets scholar mated
my first game i played c3, got my queen out and was moving it around the 3rd rank and 4th rank when it was safe by previous info i got, then by move 12 or 13 my opponent hang his king, lol, never played since this first game, 100% win rate here
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3 Ra2 Rah2 h4 h5 h6 h7 h8=Q#
higher rated than Hikaru ... yes !!! Let me have the moment guys ...pls
I'm elated Mr Hikaru ... Big fan.
What
This is the best version of chess that I've ever seen!
This needs to become a thing between GM's!
Chess where one pawn can secretly move like a king.
I peeped that too 🤔
Less exciting, but I was wondering about chess with sorta "beginner intuitive" rules. No en passant, no castling(!), and the queen can also move like the knight.
oO PPH Oo That sounds even worse than the one pawn that can move like a king
@@nikodemg6608 Full disclosure: I'm not aiming for a fun mode. It would be an experiment to see exactly how much those rules matter. Probably a very messy experiment.
Until quarantine began and I jumped on the twitch chess hype, I didn't actually know how castling worked (though opponents of mine had used it) and I had never even heard of en passant. I'd be curious to see the "meta" with those sorta rules.
Ive watched this video like 3 times since it's publish. I love it so much. Please play more of this variant with other people
Seeing Levi and Hikaru at 1500 rating feels illegal
I feel like early queen movement is exceedingly powerful due to her vision.
Even something as simple as knowing the first 3-4 moves your opponent made could allow you to feasibly counter their entire game, so even if you end up losing the queen, you could come out significantly ahead.
Just realised that the E1/e8 queen exchange is a strong move in this version. The person doing the exchange will get lots of information and most likely no more castling
Hikaru is super impressive, his ability to mentalize the entire game there. [This is actually my second time watching this, oh man, yep.]
One thing I learned about this variant, is that people make 'inefficient moves' that you wouldn't do in normal chess.
To hide your pieces that your opponent piece discovered(sight).
you two are hilarious together. The facial expressions are so fun! I feel like Kasparov with that "flabbergasted and flummoxed" look at the board was the proto-meme to these highly advanced memes you both wield.
this is the best type of strategy war games, because its add the unknown variable into the equation
We now need Chess with commanders who give buffs to certain pieces.
Chess Evolved has that concept (but there a lot of other crazy things there so... yeah)
Hikaru and Levi playing a third game in their head while playing the second game is amazing! Wish I could play just in my head.
I REALLY love the emphasis on bluffing that comes with this mode, it really flips the whole game on its head
Really like that Advance Wars 2 reference int the thumbnail.
More of this please, I really enjoyed it.
The best thumb nail ever. I will play this video a million times to give it more views and comment every single comment to boost the odds of more brilliant art like this thumbnail.
It makes me really happy that people still remembers that piece of art Advance Wars (1 or 2, both are great).
The fact that he used Kanbei and Andy from Advance wars, a gba game known for it's fog of war for the thumbnail is just awesome!
Hikaru are you an Advance wars fan as well?
I need more of this. The thrill is so good.
This is so dank I was imagining that I'm watching the board from Levy's perspective and the commentary still made sense to me
8:00 Brave Queen! Interesting concept here, gg. Lol. Thrilling to watch in a way. Thx.
ohhh ok. now this I can get into. this should be a variant in some kind of tournament !!!
I wish there was more of this.
Fun to watch :D
BIG ups for the Advance Wars reference.
This channel's editor(s) is/are truly a man of culture.
It's amazing how on his first game he could figure out where almost every piece of his opponent was
and still lost
"you know Hikaru is serious when he's not speaking" "I'm just not saying anything because I don't know where your rook is going" LOL
So glad to see Advance Wars is not completely forgotten! What got me into video games
Hikaru struggling to unlearn decades of regular chess.
Welcome to your glimpse of how being an actual field army commander feels, Hikky
The other day I was watching Rosen play fog of war thinking "I can't wait to see Hikaru play this"
Now my dreams have come true
i feel like in this game, the queen is even more valuable than any other piece beacuse it gives the most vision, and positions are seemingly kind of reduced in importance vs having vision of what is going on so you can get into a better position. very spicy game, looks fun
Gotta love them Hikaru facial expressions while thinking/calculating hahaha
The way Hikaru looks up and to the side combined with this variation of chess makes me imagine "I'm in your walls" meme
At the beginning, Levi should have just said, you can only see squares you can move to. Would have been much easier to understand.
13:45 "When did i have Tacos?"
more fow chess pls!! i love this
love the use of advanced wars in the thumbnail here!
One of those gamemode the wooden shield is actually op.
Ah, I see you are an expert in juicer placement as well
wooden shield is always op
"After among us, this will be the next thing.." Uh huh..
This is a really cool way to play chess. Very enjoyable video watching Hikaru think so much.
Excellent Thumbnail Hikaru, I loved that game as a kid.
This game mode makes things far more interesting, it trully turns chess into a war game, with information being just as valuable as the position itself. It also allows for way riskier stragegies, since you can eat the king.
It scares me how quickly this turned into an info battle
I love how Hikaru has to look away and visualize the board, in order to see PREVIOUS turns.
HOLYSHT I JUST SEEN THIS AND OH MY GOD,
THE ADVANCE WARS REFERENCE LMAOOOO
8:58 he explained that at the start...
at 2:10 he said: "after among us this will be the next thing." i mean he was right, chess is the thing now!
The faces that hikaru makes I can't 🤣🤣 pls..
I love how you guys innovate this game. Fog of war in chess is genius! I also love the 4 way chess battle you guys did. Amazing.
Levy: hi
Hikaru;: you gave me to much information you lose
Hikaru just had a screen with Gotham’s stream on the ceiling that’s why he knew where the pieces are
Bruh, I just came here for the Advance Wars thumbnail. I used to play that game all the time on my Gameboy Advance SP.
What a throwback....
I probably have to apply Starcraft logic in it. You have to scout, unlike in regular chess. Therefore it's much more useful to get the queen out early. Once scouting is prevented, it can be a guessing game on where the opponent must strike. One must take care to avoid enemy bishops though.
The advance wars thumbnail was amazing to see.
the mind games are so good, I imagine this is waay more fun with high level players.
Advance Wars reference, love it! Grew up on Chess and AWs!
OH MY GOD THE THUMBNAIL! Advanced Wars! The memories!
The fact Chess Grandmasters played Advance Wars just warms my heart.
More of this. Please. I think this is really interesting. Can you get both sides for the you-tube instead of just using the twitch vod?
Loved the game the thumbnail is from, advanced army was epic
Every 1200 just plays this game
Hikaru takes it absolutely serious and makes a blindfolded game out of it