The last two digits of the grade of steel is the carbon content. A rough rule of thumb is that you can achieve a hardness on the Rockwell C scale about equal to the carbon content. Example 1050 will achieve roughly a 50 rockwell on its own without carburizing.
@@powellmachineinc this episode should put to rest Mr. " I just cringe at the thought of a regrind" when you have to grind the ever living snot out of a cam to ruin the heat treat/harness
Yeah, I figured this out on my own when I overhauled my 1972 case backhoe, some of the bushings arent available, but some that are CLOSE are, so I used my pre WW2 lathe and spent a long time slowly lathing off some rockwell 65 with lots of time lots of bits and some sparks, then it went WOOHOO and started cutting off some metal, thats when I figured heat treated did not mean all the way through :) Back in nov 2024 I saw Daniel used a rockwell tester and to me that meant he knew WTF he was doing, and was one reason I chose him to balance my crank
This could be why some of the later cams are wiping out so quick,( failures) definitely something you wouldn't think you would have to check,the strength, thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
That is my concern also. It seems that many camshafts and lifter companies have moved out of the states and sending back junk that doesn't say Made in the USA.
Hey Daniel l just saw that you are entered in the camshaft challenge put on by Eric Weingarten's Channel. Just wanted to drop a line to you letting ya know that I'm 💯 % pulling for you ! He had nothing but good stuff to say about you and Lol....I was like ah yheh...tell me something I don't already know ow !! Hahaha😂 on the serious low-down..hope you kick butt !
thanks very helpful. I've seen photos of cams that have that shape where the base circle is one with the core and it just looked wrong visually to me (I'm no expert).
I bought my first big block solid roller cam on eBay back in 2008. I was a small block guy until then and thought it was just a small base circle like a 400 small block. I called my buddy Nick at competition products to order some lifters for a big block with a small base circle cam. He says what the f are you talking about? Send me a picture. He says you got f’ed. Today I’m finally finding out how that cam came to be and just how bad it was. I still have it , but never ran it. Should make a lamp out of it or something.
So much of eBay is fraudluent garbage. If a price sounds too good to be true, odds are it is. Sure, sometimes you get treasure in a bargain bin. Never count on it.
Do you check cores every time? I think I would, I have seen bad batches of gun parts come from heat treat. They were checked by the heat treater before they shipped to us.... but somehow...
Hello fellow gear heads, I just wanted to ask what type of camshafts and lifters are actually decent for a 305 small block Chevy that I am rebuilding for a camper special 1974 with a rear end that has a 3:72 gear ratio? Not a work truck yet I do some towing with a trailer in a blue moon. When I do a engine I port and polish the heads except the lower casting on the heads because they are like rapids in a river. They take the gas air mixer and throw the heavier gas up into the intake runner. The more that the air and gas gets to mix the more volatile that mixture is. That is why a high rise intake performance is better. More time for mixture. The last time I went with a cam it was a competition cam 268 and melling lifters. Now some companies went over seas with low quality of their products.
Could the core be heated,either furnace or induction, and nitrited, I think it's like a molten salt dip? If not it's too bad that the grinder totally disregards heat treat. Thank you sir for pointing this out!
Thinkin’ that redoing the heat treat would mean grinding the cam again. Would expect it would be better to just grind another on the appropriate core, as it would be questionable if there would be enough meat left to grind, the correct lobe geometry, after the time and expense of heat treat and all that goes with it. Literally, grinding a turd, I’d expect, but, I ain’t no expert and expect Daniel will chime in…
It could be heat treated again to achieve the desired metallurgical properties; but it's going to warp/twist/shift at least a little... So it will have to be straightened and reground again to achieve precise geometry. Salt Bath Nitride (SBN), aka Ferritic Nitrocarburizing does achieve a super hard outer "skin" on parts, but it's only between 0.001" and 0.005"deep, depending on how long the part is in the salt bath. Also, it serves to temper/soften/weaken the material underneath a little. Remember that hardening steel ALWAYS makes it stronger, but also makes it more brittle. The right hardness is always a balance between wear resistance, strength and brittleness. My point here is the cam lobe needs to be hard to prevent wear - but ALSO to withstand the high stress generated by acceleration of the valvetrain. So simply achieving a really hard outer skin (from SBN, for example) wouldn't generate the core hardness/strength required to live a long happy life as a camshaft. Hope that helps.
Can an undersized cam like this be saved with a fresh heat treat and hardening or do you create new problems? Why would a machine shop grind a core that isn't spec'ed properly (on this I am just confused).
What happens when you heat treat things? Do they stay straight? Watch some other of the videos and see what is done before came starts to be ground. It is checked for straightness of all the cam journals and then "adjusted" before any grinding. Ask any place that heat treats things what happens to any part after it is heat treated. Do it keep all its pre treatment sizes and straightness?
@@shabazz18 It means think it through and you will discover the answer yourself without the need to ask a question. Did you work out the answers to my questions or do I need to tell you the answers? If you look at these sort of videos, in my mind you should be able to do that by yourself.
Cringed when you pulled that cam out... No way would I put that in any engine I have. Very good point on the heat treatment. If that cringy camshaft were to be used, could it be heat treated again to give it some longevity? Or is heat treating a "one and done" scenario?
Amazing, that cam companies will send that kind of stuff, out the door! They're supposed to know better. Where's the QA at? I guess, they would blame it on the engine builder/owner.
Your videos just saved me an expensive engine failure. Only reason I knew to have that checked was your previous cam core video. Thank you
@@wayneskelly4297 glad to help!!
The last two digits of the grade of steel is the carbon content. A rough rule of thumb is that you can achieve a hardness on the Rockwell C scale about equal to the carbon content. Example 1050 will achieve roughly a 50 rockwell on its own without carburizing.
I'm glad you have a Rockwell tester. I seen shops that even found push rods out of specs.
There is so much information on this channel. Love it.
@@MichaelScudder72 thank you!
@@powellmachineinc this episode should put to rest Mr. " I just cringe at the thought of a regrind" when you have to grind the ever living snot out of a cam to ruin the heat treat/harness
@@MichaelScudder72 lol, definitely
Yeah, I figured this out on my own when I overhauled my 1972 case backhoe, some of the bushings arent available, but some that are CLOSE are, so I used my pre WW2 lathe and spent a long time slowly lathing off some rockwell 65 with lots of time lots of bits and some sparks, then it went WOOHOO and started cutting off some metal, thats when I figured heat treated did not mean all the way through :)
Back in nov 2024 I saw Daniel used a rockwell tester and to me that meant he knew WTF he was doing, and was one reason I chose him to balance my crank
I know about turning hard stuff! It ain't fun!
Thanks for the awesome video's have been racing for 38 years, have learned so much priceless information from your videos!
Glad to help
This could be why some of the later cams are wiping out so quick,( failures) definitely something you wouldn't think you would have to check,the strength, thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
I appreciate that 🙏
That is my concern also. It seems that many camshafts and lifter companies have moved out of the states and sending back junk that doesn't say Made in the USA.
Thanks for taking time out of your day to share your experience !
Our pleasure!
Thank you! Some excellent info there.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the video.
You bet
Thank you so much for sharing those valuable nuggets of info! Rolling contact fatigue will kill a cam in short order with no to little case.
Yep
Hey Daniel l just saw that you are entered in the camshaft challenge put on by Eric Weingarten's Channel. Just wanted to drop a line to you letting ya know that I'm 💯 % pulling for you ! He had nothing but good stuff to say about you and Lol....I was like ah yheh...tell me something I don't already know ow !! Hahaha😂 on the serious low-down..hope you kick butt !
Thanks, all the support is so awesome 👌 👏 👍
I'll be contacting you sir to build my camshaft. Thank You
100%
horrifying that they did it but sold it. be nice to know who made that door stop so we all can avoid
I am going to reach out to see if they will make it right. If they will not I will be posting all the info here
@@wayneskelly4297what ended up happening?
Nice work as always.
@@flinch622 thank you
Thx again brother
thanks very helpful. I've seen photos of cams that have that shape where the base circle is one with the core and it just looked wrong visually to me (I'm no expert).
@@kevinclancy. Definitely
I bought my first big block solid roller cam on eBay back in 2008. I was a small block guy until then and thought it was just a small base circle like a 400 small block. I called my buddy Nick at competition products to order some lifters for a big block with a small base circle cam. He says what the f are you talking about? Send me a picture. He says you got f’ed. Today I’m finally finding out how that cam came to be and just how bad it was. I still have it , but never ran it. Should make a lamp out of it or something.
Lol
So much of eBay is fraudluent garbage. If a price sounds too good to be true, odds are it is. Sure, sometimes you get treasure in a bargain bin. Never count on it.
Do you check cores every time? I think I would, I have seen bad batches of gun parts come from heat treat. They were checked by the heat treater before they shipped to us.... but somehow...
Yeah, we qc everything
Thanks
No problem
Hello fellow gear heads, I just wanted to ask what type of camshafts and lifters are actually decent for a 305 small block Chevy that I am rebuilding for a camper special 1974 with a rear end that has a 3:72 gear ratio? Not a work truck yet I do some towing with a trailer in a blue moon. When I do a engine I port and polish the heads except the lower casting on the heads because they are like rapids in a river. They take the gas air mixer and throw the heavier gas up into the intake runner. The more that the air and gas gets to mix the more volatile that mixture is. That is why a high rise intake performance is better. More time for mixture. The last time I went with a cam it was a competition cam 268 and melling lifters. Now some companies went over seas with low quality of their products.
If you haven't watched the Go hard video about BTR. It is very interesting . His cores are within. 020 of the grind!
Ground hog cams manufactures the best cams out there today. NASCAR, NHRA race teams all use their cams.
Just wow.
Yeah, it's tough
Are you able to get solid roller cores for the 472/500 Cadillac?
Yes, but need to buy a min of 25 to make tje cores
thats alot of work to scrap a cam
Yup
can you reheat treat the reground cam?
You can bit it wouldn't be usable
Could the core be heated,either furnace or induction, and nitrited, I think it's like a molten salt dip? If not it's too bad that the grinder totally disregards heat treat. Thank you sir for pointing this out!
You can't really reheat treat a cam
Thinkin’ that redoing the heat treat would mean grinding the cam again. Would expect it would be better to just grind another on the appropriate core, as it would be questionable if there would be enough meat left to grind, the correct lobe geometry, after the time and expense of heat treat and all that goes with it.
Literally, grinding a turd, I’d expect, but, I ain’t no expert and expect Daniel will chime in…
It could be heat treated again to achieve the desired metallurgical properties; but it's going to warp/twist/shift at least a little... So it will have to be straightened and reground again to achieve precise geometry.
Salt Bath Nitride (SBN), aka Ferritic Nitrocarburizing does achieve a super hard outer "skin" on parts, but it's only between 0.001" and 0.005"deep, depending on how long the part is in the salt bath. Also, it serves to temper/soften/weaken the material underneath a little.
Remember that hardening steel ALWAYS makes it stronger, but also makes it more brittle. The right hardness is always a balance between wear resistance, strength and brittleness. My point here is the cam lobe needs to be hard to prevent wear - but ALSO to withstand the high stress generated by acceleration of the valvetrain. So simply achieving a really hard outer skin (from SBN, for example) wouldn't generate the core hardness/strength required to live a long happy life as a camshaft.
Hope that helps.
@@GroovesAndLandswe "can" heat treat it again, it would be hard, just not usable
How deep should the heat treat depth be on the cam lobes and journals when the cam is finished?
How about you watch the video again. The answer is there.
Can an undersized cam like this be saved with a fresh heat treat and hardening or do you create new problems? Why would a machine shop grind a core that isn't spec'ed properly (on this I am just confused).
It will warp up 9f hardened
👍
This must have taken forever to grind. Thats a ton of material to remove.
No doubt
You using C scale on that tester?
Yes
Ouch!
💯
Just looking at that cam you can tell it was junk.
Yup
Can it not be re-heat treated?
What happens when you heat treat things? Do they stay straight? Watch some other of the videos and see what is done before came starts to be ground. It is checked for straightness of all the cam journals and then "adjusted" before any grinding. Ask any place that heat treats things what happens to any part after it is heat treated. Do it keep all its pre treatment sizes and straightness?
@@bobhudson6659 answering a question with more questions isn't a answer.
@@shabazz18 It means think it through and you will discover the answer yourself without the need to ask a question. Did you work out the answers to my questions or do I need to tell you the answers? If you look at these sort of videos, in my mind you should be able to do that by yourself.
Cringed when you pulled that cam out... No way would I put that in any engine I have. Very good point on the heat treatment. If that cringy camshaft were to be used, could it be heat treated again to give it some longevity? Or is heat treating a "one and done" scenario?
Amazing, that cam companies will send that kind of stuff, out the door! They're supposed to know better. Where's the QA at? I guess, they would blame it on the engine builder/owner.
No doubt
It’s shocking what some companies will send out as “good” parts.
Is this why the solid roller stuff uses billet cores? The billet cores dont need to be heat treated because they're strong enough already?
This is a billet core, and billet is soft, all cam cores need to be heat treated.
Just makes me wonder why this industry has so many rip-offs. I wish you the best of luck getting your money back from the original supplier.
Amazed at the ignorance floating about these days
ruclips.net/video/Gifja_k45TE/видео.htmlsi=zG6W4nfOGExxyvK9
Mins 12 for your hardness demo an awesome cut away looking in like a MRI