UIAA -> Approved for Mountaineering (tested by UIAA) EN -> Stamp of the European Norm the Product is rated on (can be done without independent tests) CE -> The manufacturer says, the product stands up to European Law and Norms (No independent test required) Edit* CE [Number] -> if there is a number behind the CE, it is the number of a 'notifying body' who has done independent test.
@@haydenhiegel9849 Common saying xD CE stands for ' Conformité Européenne ' so that it is conform to Europe Standards, HOWEVER any manufacturer can just slap it on there without any test, that's why it is loved for chinese products as some type of 'approval-seal'. Tecnically every product sold in the EU should have CE, but usually that goes along with a lot more norms and test, at least with legit products.
And the numbers after EN indicates which norm they are conforming to. In this case EN 362 is for personal protection against falls and EN 12275 is personal protection equipment for mounterering, climbing and similar.
And certified CE - EN products has to be proofed by certification Institutes. They are numbered too, like ce0123, is proofed by that defined company. Somewhere in the Internet,you can find all the companies allowed testing, to get that certification document.So of course,the label CE ist printed by the manufacturer, but there is a real independent test before that too. Or should be. False Labels could bei possible, but it is controlled, and mostly, it can be trusted.
@@haydenhiegel9849 CE = China Export is an urban legend, which has been debunked by the European Commision itself, there are however companies which misuse the CE mark www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=P-2007-5938&language=EN
I think the break strength isn’t the main issue, it’s the core material and resulting durability issue, just a guess lol I’d like to see it break too tho
Yes, i have been using it. One for abseiling and one as a backup. It seems plenty strong enough, however i have noticed it stretching. I have just bought a Petzl one to replace it. I think i will change any rope after a couple of years anyway, just for piece of mind
"All carabiners are made in China" Except the ones made in Wales (DMM), Bavaria (Edelrid), France (Petzl, Simond), Italy (Grivel at least, not sure about Camp or Kong), Czechia (Ocun) ...
Yeah also Kong produces everything in Italy, while camp I think not entirely, cause it has like subsidiaries in the USA, France and Russia, so I think they produce something out there, but they still produce in Italy too for sure.
That is the fastest way to find out where stuff is made. Saying it's all made in china haha. Interesting! Do any american brands make their products in america?
Just to add something interesting: manufacturers have to pay the UIAA each year to keep their products certified. Sometimes they just "forget" to pay. For example Fixe (a Spanish brand that is producing gear widely used in bolting cliffs, also Roca/Fixe ropes, Aliens cams and more) have been marked as "cancelled" on the UIAA website for 3 whole years! And yes they kept producing and selling gear marked as certified for this period. Now they're back on the UIAA website, but when I tried (for 2 years!) to get answers from them they just hung up the phone or ignored me on Facebook... The UIAA just told me "Our records show that they have not made payments for the use of the UIAA logo". So yeah that is shady, and that's from a very reputable company. So I wouldn't put too much trust in the UIAA process as manufacturers seem to just not worry about it very much, even the big ones.
@gumwap1 I doubt it's cheap to do the testing with use of certified, precise tooling and knowledgeable staff to ensure that climbing gear is up to acceptable standards.
@@gumwap1I get that it’s expensive but it’s def not a racket for life saving equipment. You have to ensure your manufacturing process is validated and continues to be in spec through the years to make sure the products are ACTUALLY as strong as they say. The design strength is not all that matters. Machines and material can get it of spec and could put out products that are not super strong enough even if they look exactly the same.
@@don7294 "It'd be a shame if someone came by and damaged your business. We can protect you for a year if you pay us" "It'd be a shame if you couldn't claim to be certified anymore despite your product not changing in any way. You can use our logo for a year if you pay us" It's a racket
Also a mention on standards. The subtle differences between them is unimportant to me, but I'm not concerned if UIAA cert is lacking as long as it has a CE number, that is also super good enough. The ones tested did have a CE number on the spine (assuming a product labeled as such is genuinely certified). Great video, although not actually donated anything yet, I did sign up to Patreon as a result of watching it
This testing was valuable to me, thanks so much for doing it. China brand carabiners aren't that much of a draw as major US and European brands are very affordable even when paying fully price in a physical climbing store. However, stuff like pulleys and ascenders. Those are expensive. A pulley from petzl or DMM can be $70-80 ascenders even more. Whilst the China brands or no name products are less than half the price so they are very very appealing if they are actually safe. Also FWIW, metal climbing hardware is very much still made in Europe and USA. The main manufacturers in Europe for metal hardware seems to be DMM, ISC, Kong and Camp. The former two in Wales and the latter two in Italy. I wouldn't be surprised if the brands in the same countries , share resources.
Well, Xinda for example is certified as respecting the European Union minimums (CE EN: XXXXX), and i also think you can find the products on the UIAA's validated products page, so whatever if it as a US certificate or not ^^ if it's good enough in europe it also is in the US
Great content thank you very much. As a Chinese outdoor lover, I would love to share another side of the perspective here. Those Chinese UIAA-certified Carabiners Normally sell here in China at 7 USD, and also En-certified Fall-back -up around 35USD. those brand you list here is not really popular around the Climbing community here as well, but with lots of good positive review in Rope Access worker here. Here high rise windows cleaners normally make 400-800 RMB ( 70-120 USD) per day. if you ask them to get an ASAP, they might take their chances up there. As a Chinese it is sad to see most of the companies just copy stuff over. on the other hand it is good to see at least they can hold what they are showing on the label. Once again, thank you for those tests.
I feel bad for the average people in china that have to live with the stigma too, even if it has a kernel of truth. What are some reputable chinese companies that are popular over there? Btw I'm mexican, so I know a little bit about stereotypes that have a kernel of truth lol
Another reason to not support the knock off brands: even if a few items are sufficiently strong, there is not guarantee that they have the appropriate quality control. IE a 10% defect rate is not acceptable. And poor quality control is known from other knockoff chinese manufacturers (ex. the recent KN-94 mask recalls in EU)
The Masks was because EU was buying from small Chinese companies, these small companies are not qualified, but EU still brought from them for cheap price, who is to blame? All the mask donated by Chinese officials are all good quality.
TBH: I'd see those carabiners not for use in climbing. But rather putting up hammocks or something. Anything where those 08/15 carabiners from the localc stores don't cut it, but you also don't put your life on it.
Covering the break test with a bag was like going to a strip club with a blindfold on. I am perfectly willing to sacrifice your safety for my viewing pleasure 😉
My local shop sells similar looking ones, they're probably more generic and industrial steel biners. Nice having one as a leaver biner but not nice for much else.
It's great to see someone test this Chinese stuff. For some reason folks like storrick and Mumford who thoroughly test everything, don't do tests on Chinese stuff. But the advice you gave about anything labelled as 7075 being strong enough is actually rather wrong, dangerously so. Firstly the manufacturer's can print whatever they feel like on the products, no one is going to come sue them. Secondly, it takes a lot more than the elemental composition of a metal alloy to build appropriate strength into a load bearing lightweight product like a carabiner. The metal must be heated and cooled in just the right way, in most load intensive items aluminium is usually cold forged which pummels the metal into the perfect shape with optimal crystal structure at microscopic level. Every step has to be done perfectly and if it is, the strength of items like carabiners is usually a few magnitudes of what actut needs
This channel deserves more subs. Until I looked at it I assumed you had at least 250k, come to find out it's a tenth of that?! These videos are so well made and well informed and it's such a rare treat to come across someone as humble and open to new information as you. You actually seek out expertise and real science, far more than can be said of most youtubers
First, let me say thank you for doing this. I have a three pack of one of these for keeping me safe when I get up on my roof. I offer a few things for your consideration. There are probably millions of different situations around this world why a person might choose a cheaper version of an item whose patent is expired and therfore can be copied by anybody. Secondly let's not kid ourselves about these big reputable companies only manufacturing in their country. Most use third world countries and China to do most of their manufacturing. Petzl state they have a manufacturing plant in Malaysia. (cheaper labor, yet charge as much for their equipment). Many comments have already stated what might be the difference that is most important. Quality Control .QC in a communist country may not be as stringent or easily inspectable by the parent company as access unannounced is unlikely. By demonstrating the products here you are by default sponsoring or supporting them. Can we be honest about the amount of innovation is really going into a carabiner these days. I only found one patent current, and the design has not changed significantly since the early 80's save the locking mechanism. I only researched for about three minutes before writing this though. So don't be afraid to make a statement about weather the product is good or not. I assume you are using similar standards for testing or evaluating these certifications. If I was on a budget, I might use these for climbing and I always belive in a standard that 2 is 1 and 1 is none. In addition to check, recheck and check again. Thanks for your video.
Just trying to help you with the algorithm... A couple of times you mentioned having the right alloy. As I suspect you are aware, this is just a first step. The processing (forging, machining, heat treatment) is probably at least as important. It's almost always possible to turn the best material into junk with the incorrect or poorly controlled processing.
These chinese brands with UIAA and CE certifications arrive in third world countries for 1/3, sometimes 1/4 of the value of the BD and Petzl ones. Some of it is because of highly abusive taxes our country charges, so for each dollar it costs less, it is 2 dollars less expensive. Then, For every dolar it costs less, it is 6 times less expensive because of the currency (dollar vs. Brazilian Real currency these days). Then, when the local dealers import it, pay all the taxes and shit, they sell it for double the price they paid. And then stores, who purchased it from dealers, sell it for like 50 or 70% of the value they paid for. In that account, a U$5 biner gets here for like R$60~80 (U$15). In comparison a U$15 biner is sold in stores here for like R$150-170 (U$45). just that would be enough to justify, however, there´s more: For comparison, the minimum salary here today is less than U$200 and more than 80% of the population lives with it. One can have lunch in a restaurant for like U$5-10 (a cheap one), so a carabiner is more expensive than a meal. So I guess these chinese carabiners play some social role of inclusion of people who would never have access to climbing gear due to many issues that don´t belong to this discussion right now. I hope I brought a different point of view to the discussion, and just to clarify, I´m not defending the crap unrated biners, just the CE UIAA ones. And by the way, the CE certification is a label that the product fits European minimum standards of environmental friendly production, safety for the customer and quality that allows products to be sold in European Comunity. CE is french for Conformitê European. For carabiners CE follows EN12275 wich is the document with the guidelines (rules) carabiners must follow). And, guess what, UIAA is the main organization behind those guidelines, despite UIAA standards are more strict. For example CE demands that a rope holds a number (I´ll guess 6) UIAA falls, while UIAA label guarantees 9 UIAA falls for that same specific kind of rope. Congrats for the channel, keep up the good work!
Yeah. It's the same in mexico. The Chinese Brand is like 1/5 or 1/4 of the price of the main brands. For those same reasons currency exchange rate play against us plus the importing taxes. Those two things alone makes de things in mexico 1.5 or 2 times as expensive than if I buy them in USA but then there is the issue of getting de good delivered
I've taken a look at those Xinda carabiners and they have some UIAA certificate, I checked it on a website, the certificate (I believe it was 121 connectors) was active.
Nothing has ever made my butt pucker faster than seeing you holding the exact same "big wall" lockers I have been using for years. :/ I'm glad they performed well but maybe I'll replace mine with a three-pack of positrons and send my old babies to you for breaking!
If you regularly check Steep and Cheap as well as Backcountry they frequently have sales on carabiners. I bought 4 Positrons at under $6 each not to long ago
I bought the Amamaya one's you tested because they were rated at 30kN. I use them in a tree saddle for hunting. Glad to know it went way beyond that rating!
I live in a country where its reaaaaally hard to get climbing gear, and i found those Asol black and orange carabines, i feel Soooooo relieved to see they break at 38Kn!
To add to the existing clarifications about standards, UIAA mark means the product is tested by EN standards, plus some extra things to get the UIAA (as someone already said, sometimes the additional rules are bullshit and it just comes to paying money to get UIAA). This is because the EN standard was based on the early UIAA standards, and now the new UIAA standards are based on those EN standards. To see those few extra requirements which need to be satisfied to get the UIAA mark on top of the EN mark, you can go to the UIAA website www.theuiaa.org/safety-standards/ and check for each part of the equipment.
To be honest, I’m not going to buy these things or anything not certified and made by some company I’ve never heard of but I would also pay nearly twice as much for gear from established American companies who make all their stuff in the USA. If carabiners are like guitars and power tools, they are probably made in the same factory with the same materials to the owner’s spec and that’s the only difference. When it comes to certification, the only actual testing I’ve seen and had made available to me is from channels like this one. Knowing how incestuous some business relations are, I think I trust guys like you more than some organization with pressure and expectation to help get products to market. It’s just one of those things unfortunately. You guys are awesome. Keep it up.
Also - I had a career in assessing machinery and other types of stuff against the applicable standards - most people never ever read the standard. CE standards usually have an appendix of declarations that describe the scenarios that fall outside of the standard. An item can rightly meet the CE or EN even if it has non conformities.
FYI -- You mentioned how steel stretches and aluminum just breaks. This has a lot to do with how far the material is being "pushed", if you will. The 7075 aluminum is one of the strongest aluminums -- it's pushing the upper limit of strength for aluminum alloys. I don't know what steel is commonly used in climbing gear, but I suspect it is in the middle of the road strength wise. As a general rule, the stronger you make a metal (or plastic for that matter), the more brittle it becomes and the less it will stretch before breaking. If you went to a weaker aluminum you would see it bend more before breaking, and if you went to a very high strength steel, you would see it snap without bending.
Whats funny is I had a go around with this concept with an engineer. Lets say you build a carabiner out of 6061 and 7075 aluminum. 6061 is stretchier so can take high cyclic loading but it's MBS is around 12kn vs the other one at 22kn... is. So yes, at 30% you are going to get a TON more cycles out of 6061 but if the same two carabiners were both put at 8kn... that is 66% of MBS on the 6061 vs 36%. Cycles are based on %. So the theory is the benefit of 6061 and the weakness cancel each other out and it would break around the same cycles as the 7075. What do you think?
@@HowNOT2 Here's an answer based on VERY limited research. This is based on only the first thing I got when I googled "7075 6061 fatigue curve" (ridiculously long link at bottom -- I hope). I used slightly different numbers than your example to better fall in the range of data they show in Fig 1. They list the breaking strength of 6061-T6 as 468 MPa, and 7075-T6 as 764 MPa. At 200 MPa, 6061 would be at 43% of its breaking strength and 7075 would be at 26%. If you look at Fig 1, at 200 MPa 6061 appears to have a fatigue life at just under 100,000 cycles. Whereas, at the same 200 MPa, 7075 is about 1,000,000,000 cycles -- or 10,000 times as many cycles. Or, looking at the same data in a different way, look at 1000,000 (1.E+06) cycles. To fail at this number of cycles, 6061 needs to be loaded to around 150 MPa, or 32% MBS. 7075 takes around 235 MPa, or 31% MBS. From this single paper, I would NOT say that 6061 and 7075 will fail at the same number of cycles if loaded to the same percentage of their MBS (it's possible but for from conclusive). But, I would say it looks very unlikely that the extra stretchiness of 6061 (about 2 times as much according to the data in the paper) cancels out the lower strength as you suggested it might. As a side note, it appears that in their test, a cycle consisted of putting the sample in both tension and compression to the specified load. I believe this is common in fatigue testing. A carabiner is basically never going to see compressive loading, so the total range of loading is only 1/2 as much. This reduced range of loading will increase the cycles before failure, but it definitely won't double them. pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/278653/1-s2.0-S1877705810X00029/1-s2.0-S1877705810000081/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjECsaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJIMEYCIQCvOqk1HE6iEnsR3f91h%2FEiXpcQyzYlyaYqeF%2Bj07YmUwIhANvl2eoD2nL%2FGQ35tsrRTkUmJWykI274hWSm6DuJodzrKr0DCLP%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEQAxoMMDU5MDAzNTQ2ODY1Igy0N84upGZAKL1fGawqkQNzTqO0TtPNk7d2fYFV4KtxTIL%2FIffYf44WiXYDq1I8KwCJ3UKXB55FDCLTnEYO4UBqvrQf9QWekbGLBuk1ZEtZXRrApqycL6pYK%2FHgnnQxtJHDF8Y7zP%2B0m8RAUuV8DqUYBNYzAHPvi1qcpOj7CcdLnT9TBD2p60NSgcW4ENWiKFwpNY9p1icVpg0%2FdboM%2FYEvqaAvBCPSz96Bt8qYja2gtNvmukCa9CTCE2sJfzdVLB2jfRVhw8Q0zQEQU9XbW9p1Kw2DgWNjst9SjtLw0kFv7DBLiJDZGSewSJHCtrABrG5A58W3AgdAxgFglj11XkFb08H8CeX9cOuLxz%2BXT%2Ble0CMGHDis7qwse4T2zmXF4b2U7NIOrXl6qHSqF3kIs8nUnlZXn%2BoQke6ZKAntrwx4v1E7khj3n6bYu3UH41as0%2BSphb1rmRuCvpgMqlkOigNr80SvDx7g5Ut9ZqRoINXhyVDT7tuns3ePZ6QcSc7Xn%2BbxnRlcXFX%2F2eoUNZ3Q6CAGDP%2Bxh5jyi28THiY4W5lXOjDDstX3BTrqAX5o0xezZWe5tzA8JWlBQGVfX7BZJ7qTNoO8xdxsc99S1Y1HtYRyPNum4kImKg5a6hOX%2BDFT6iQwTReB8ZMXXII0%2F934Vonx6fUVB6mlAS5AWYNzuPY4IqjZ9Jv%2BLoUXAqw3bFHhb1y7RrgRXar%2B7SblUBSVPiQS3T6kZJ3h%2BbL%2B81sJAu5I4hz0uznUAhJHHJb3%2Fce4fKnShSrDru4blHsO1YrxYia4QTJeHrQ%2Ft3eWvk5t%2BHpyzJaX7g%2B3oDzoTdW6NBDcSb2W7%2BR9jBsipHn7VYzwEmVbngM8%2FFKpFf40fS9Ny6GKLqjJXA%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20200626T033242Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTY46WIY2B3%2F20200626%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=52bb94d5130fcd71ff0f6ace25dab6207fbcb68290f3281074a54b4b1882d457&hash=fc9323b489f074c391cbb0d06bdeebb3cb83471c20cede47137ae7ee3c74cf5e&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1877705810000081&tid=spdf-f75adc30-1d63-4169-a56a-02f3e9b3582f&sid=c7aca4666b53c9415d68f81-d21aa6204e55gxrqa&type=client
@@HowNOT2 So I gathered a couple more references: www.researchgate.net/figure/SN-diagrams-for-7075-and-6061-aluminum-alloys-with-T6-temper-The-solid-curves-show-the_fig4_47510718 www.efatigue.com/training/Physics_of_Fatigue.pdf In the first reference, the graph shows that at 200 MPa, 6061 fails at about 10,000 cycles (log 10,000 = 4), and 7075 fails at about 330,000 (log 330,000 = 5.5). And at 100 MPa, 6061 fails at about 500,000 cycles and 7075 at about 23,000,000 cycles. At the higher load, 7075 last "only" 33 times as long as 6061, and at the lower load 46 times longer. WAY less than the difference shown in the reference in my earlier reply. Likewise, the second reference (on PDF page no. 43) shows that at the same 152 (probably MPa stress), 6061 has a life of 1,000,000 cycles, and 7075 is 100,000,000 cycles -- 100 times as long. I knew relying on a single reference was a bad idea, but my wife said it was bed time. What's a man to do? Anyway, I think it's clear that 7075 will withstand substantially more cycles than 6061 at any given loading.
@@HowNOT2 I just learned something I find very counterintuitive from this video: ruclips.net/video/io5lgF_DReQ/видео.html That is, occasional applying a higher than normal load to a metal part will significantly INCREASE it's fatigue life. Note: he refers to this as an "overload", but by this I'm sure he just means a load that is significantly "over" the normal load, not a load that is greater than what the part is designed to take. So, maybe the next time you take a big fall, you can just say you are improving the fatigue life of the metal hardware. The applicable parts of the video are from 43:25 to 45:50 and a bit more at 52:15 to 53:50, or start at 53:50 if you prefer the explanation in Japanese. :)
Although it might not have been in the Amazon description, that Xinda also has a UIAA certificate here is the link: safety.theuiaa.org/admin/certificate.php?IDLabel=5721 Maybe 'Kim' works for the UIAA 😅
The carabiner at 10:07 has a potentially serious flaw, where sub-optimal loading far away from the spine is likely. It would have been interesting to see its strength in that regime.
That was awesome and a little surprising. I'm of the same opinion that we should support the name brands who innovate and promote our sport, but it is good to know that I probably won't die if I or a friend have and use some of the knockoffs.
Checked the info in the description, and there's one thing that you might find that wasn't covered: ANSI. It's basically the same as EN but the standards are made in the US. Many EN standards have ANSI equivalents or near equivalents with differences usually being within what gets edited between editions (eg. you have an EN standard published in 2004 and republished in 2014 with minor edits; the ANSI equivalent published in 2008 will probably have some midpoint in the edit or go one way)
UIAA is a certification body for climbing and mountaineering, the number tells which standard the device was tested against. CE means it conforms to EU rules for being sold (or if the logo is slightly different, that it is approved for export from China and shouldn't be trusted for anything.) This has nothing to do with safety testing, just materials and manufacture, not containing toxic stuff, etc. EN is a European safety and technical standards mark, the number tells which standard the device was tested against. All of these can be faked, they're just printed logos. Real carabiners and other equipment will come with an information packet, will have individual serial numbers and manufacture dates, etc.
To follow up / add more: The different standards specify exactly what tests must be done, how the tests are set up, how measurements are taken, etc. I couldn't find an English version for free (it's $50 for a PDF of the Irish version, $200 for the British, etc) but a German copy of EN 12275 (the standard for climbing and mountaineering carabiners) is on libgen at libgen.lc/standarts/get.php?md5=cd8cd630f35c5b481922a71e28711434 26 pages. It specifies break tests from different angles, not just the main axis. Gate open/closed. Bend tests. Corrosion resistance tests. Gate operation tests. Gate resistance (how hard it is to open). So there's a lot more to it than gets tested here, because there are a lot more actual concerns in practice than can be tested on a RUclips channel and still be entertaining. Also everything has to be tested with enough samples to get a good statistical distribution for mean & std deviation to get a valid MBS.
@@robbarchard Also the Problem is, that CE isn't listed anywhere, there are no independent test or anything. It just states the manufacturers intention to have it conform to European law/norms...
Cool video and thanks for post your test results.😀 I climb recreationally, but I do feel more comfortable about some of my online purchases now. Keep up the good work😀
Knock offs are great for "non-life safety" situations (Hammocks, storing gear, water bottles, etc). I trust all "life safety" equipment to only UIAA certified gear. When an actual life is on the line, I am willing to pay the premium. Same rule applies for ropes, harnesses and more.
As I read the two main Standarts for biners are UIAA 121 and EN12275. The EN defines mainly how biners are break testet (major axis, Minor axis and major axis with open Gate) and wich forces they need to withstand. Major: 20KN - Oval 18KN Minor: 7KN open gate: - basic biner 7KN - HSM biner 6KN - oval 5KN (For normal biners, ovals and HMS) The EN also says somethings about gate openig (can a gate open, if there is a 15 mm bolt or two 11 mm bolts in the biner (via Ferrata 21 mm)). The UIAA says base is the the EN qualifications as well as a brake test over an edge (only for via Ferrata) and a vage Notification that the cross section of biners should not be to small. I do not guarantee for correctness of the Information.
CEN and UL are companies that test to or write product standards. They are different in that they have different jurisdictions, or requirements in their standards. CEN/CE/EN/IEC are all related to the European market wheras UL/IEEE/ANSI are for the US/NA market. Their standards are typically so similar that to have CE/UL is enough to confidently apply to the other market.
One more point to consider: if there is an issue (for example quality control related) named brand manufacturers will call back the product. The no name brand will go the cheap route to just stick a new no name and color on.
Love your channel guys. I have a request. Can you do some test on adjustable knot strength. Prussia hitch, taut line hitch, adjustable grip hitch, ...etc. I am interested in finding out which is the strongest, easiest to use, and most reliable. Hopefully this test is not as expensive as most of your equipment test. 😁
Long comment.. I’m a retired test engineer for BCAG former MDC. Specifically, static test fixture for C-17A and T45 Goshhawk. We broke things like aircraft landing gear and wings. Millions of pounds. I tested in both static and dynamic modes. You’re close to performing a good test. All you need is a laptop, a load cell, a dummy load of like material, some strain gauges with 350 ohm value would be good enough, a small power supply for up to 20vdc, knowledge to put it all together. The hardest part is applying the the strain gauge to the material being tested. Then making a balanced Wheatstone Bridge at 350ohms. 3 leg dummy load on the same type material at the same temperature and one leg on the load material ie; the carabiner. Excite it with the power supply at 5-10vdc. Pick off the signal and feed it into a signal conditioner (purchased on line), calibrate for maybe 2.5mv/v, call that 2.5mv load a count. Interpret counts from volts and display a graph or number form on the laptop.
I left out something.. the load cell is the calibrated portion of the test. It’s calibrated in lbs from 0 to whatever value you require. It is the verifier of the load applied to the carabiner under load. The laptop will sample both inputs and graph or number form both actual values. Static tests are one time events. Dynamic tests are cycles of an operation like how many falls can a carabiner withstand before breaking at a given load.
One more comment regarding your “test stand”. You can protect yourself and view everything you do behind a chain mail curtain. Take a piece the size of a towel and place between you and the test fixture. You can see through it or better yet, view it through your camera view displayed in a safe area. I’ve witnessed small metal shards hitting folks like bullets. Better to be safe
The issue has to be about quality control on these unbranded ones. The good ones, sure, they test well, but how often do they make ones that have inherent faults? Do they have the rigourous inspection that (I assume!) the brands have? I would think not, as they do not have the same potential for reputational damage if a device is found to have failed prematurely.
Hi, physics teacher here. In reference to your explanation of pound versus kilonewton: Pounds are a measure of force in the imperial system of measurements. Newtons (and kilonewtons) are also measurements of force, except in the SI measurement standard. In other words, they are the same thing, just measured along a different scale (excuse the bad pun). 1 kN is approximately 225 lb. I bet if you consistently divide the numbers on your two strain gauges, you'd get pretty consistent conversion numbers. The conversion between lb and kN is constant, meaning the conversion math stays the same in all gravitational environments.
@@paolopilotto8603 yes... but also no. There are actually two measures of pounds. Pounds of mass (short form - lbm), and pounds of force (short form - lbf), and arguably a third, the British Pound Sterling (a currency). But frankly, both suck, there is a reason why 99% of the world uses the metric system (only the USA, Liberia, and Myanmar (Burma) still use imperial)... then there is the UK, where they use a mix of metric, imperial, and some medieval measures like stones.
I think I heard once that Newton's are to kilograms as pounds are to slugs. The kilograms and slugs are units of mass, and once you multiply them by gravity (acceleration), you get the force units of lb and N. F=ma whether you're in metric or avoirdupois.
IIRC Black Diamond carabiners are made in Taiwan as of earlier this year. Black Diamond is also halting all remaining US production through the end of this year.
I think a lot of commentators are missing the point here. It's not just about how these are made, its the QA system that underpins them that is lacking in knock-off products. Of course they could pool together and produce their own independent test standards and batch sampling, chains of backlogging in order to isolate incidents of failure and eliminate the cause, but that is expensive. The UIAA and EN have done that intellectual work for them so it is cheaper for the manufacturer to buy into that. So a couple of random karabiners tested in this video did not fail at low loading - however, would you trust your life to that level of testing? If so, you should implicitly trust every person you meet because you have a friend who is ok... The standards testing process allows problems to be identified and the production logging allows the source of the error to be identified within a batch, allowing recall and product improvement. All of this is missing from a product that is simply designed to be (hopefully) over spec, which would counteract minor imperfections and blemishes. As mentioned elsewhere these producers don't contribute much to Research and design, although that is not necessarily the case, as their reduced overheads could enable them to invest in that instead. But you are unlikely to find cutting-edge performance in terms of weight to performance in these products. Not only are you risking your own life by supporting the production of knock-offs if you buy them, but you are also risking the lives of others such as your partner, or other activists if you leave stuff in situ, who might well make the assumption that your kit has been tested properly.
Thank you guys for providing us with this good footage and info. So you guys can provide with future snap footie, You guys should invest in a clear shield over your test area.
Was looking for this comment. I think we found the brand to avoid right here if he'd tell us what it is. Look at 11:53 for the really terrifying moment. Imagine seeing that on the slow-mo of a fall.
Something I'd also throw in the ring for testing: side release buckles for like 25 mm webbing and similar, to check if your backpack's just going to throw in the towel and say goodbye with significant drops and whatnot.
Great video! For all the back and forth about price, you make an important point in your comments about supporting brands that innovate and contribute to the culture. While knockoff hardware may be *almost* functionally equivalent to name brands, supporting companies that employ climbers, promote environmental awareness, and practice good corporate stewardship are big intangibles. It took me a long time to realize value doesn't always directly correlate with cost, and where you spend your money has a real impact.
CE certification can be a test a manufacturer can do themselves, but it depends on what type of product it is. Climbing gear that is classified as Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) class II and III (stuff that keeps you alive, like carabiners, slings, harnesses, cams, ropes, etc.) must be checked by a "notified body", which is an external company that verifies that the product does indeed live up to all the requirements before they're allowed to put a CE on the product, and there has to be a four digit code next to the CE stamp on the product that identifies the notifying body. Other things, like for example PPE class I products, is stuff that is meant to protect you from very minor risks, things like gloves for example. These things still have a specification of what they need to be able to do in certain situations, but don't need to be verified by a notified body, so the manufacturer can do it themselves and then slap a CE stamp on them.
Pounds are a measure of force. Newtons are a measure of force. Same thing. One is metric and one is a relic of history that, for some reason, Americans can't stop using.
newtons are a more dynamic load measure. pounds does not account for gravity. at least not without math. Kn does the math for you. It is roughly 100 Kg/m. i Have to fall 35m to generate a 30 kN force. i am not used to the math but it is actually easy.
The million dollar question though… what’s the brand/link of the two carabiners you are using to connect the Caribbean or being tested. I want that one.
I worked as a rigger for a while, pretty much all our hardware was steel. We'd be lifting 20 ton loads on the regular. I keep dabbling into the climbing world and every time I wonder why everything's aluminum. Are there any significant benefits to aluminum beside the aesthetic value of the anodized coatings? Is it the weight savings? Using the bathroom before you climb's probably equivalent to the weight savings.
I feel like your test method misses the interesting ratings. No biner will break at 20 or more kN in any real life climbing situation. The critical ratings are open biner (for the non locking ones) and especially the sideload rating. These are often only 7 kN, which is a load that /can/ be reached even in (multi-pitch) sports climbing at a factor two fall. EDIT: 7kN+ force can be seen even in non multi-pitch scenarios. The largest European climbing association thus suggests buying biners rated for 10 kN force of sideloading.
I would love to see tubular webbing tied into a sling slack snapped. After seeing how much dyneema slips and cuts itself in knots I would like know if similar things happen with webbing.
The brand really doesn't matter nearly as much as the certification. Every brand was a no-name brand to me when I started out and had no idea what all these brands were. But as long as they had the CE-rating (I'm in Europe) and reputable shops stocked them, I trusted them.
@@hiranhasaranga6450 The CE cfertified ones will hold it guaranteed, they're certified for multiple tons of weight. The Amazon ones will most likely be sufficient too, a boxing bag like that doesn't experience any "falling" forces like they would in a climbing fall, so you should be good
I watched a Chinese knockoff company take the exact design of one of the major products of one of my favorite motorcycle companies and sell it. That company was based in Seattle area. That company also had to go to lengthy and expensive lawsuits about it. I don't know if they won or not. They went out of business shortly thereafter. Apparently the other company still sells that design as far as I can tell.
12:58 actually verry good explanation of material fatigue. Fatigue breaking happens when the microfractures grow deep enough to the point where the effective mechanical resistance lowers bellow the force exerted by the cyclic load. The rule of thumb is the higher the load the less cycles are required to break and more cycles for lower loads. Ive seen fatigue breaking happening after milions of cycles for some cases of low ciclic load
I'm a bit of an engineer and am comfortable with electronics...but I'm not familiar with the exact things you're talking about... If you could send me a list of parts you're looking at and a rough idea of how you would like to setup the tower, then I can probably figure out how to hook it all up....and if I don't, then I probably know people that do.... I'd be willing to buy everything on my own dime to test it out at my shop, then I would only ask that you reimburse me for parts when I ship it out to you... No charge for labor or R&D for you guys!
It's not just about the Aluminium grade used, it's about how it is processed e.g.. the forging & heat treatment process. You can make a carbiner from 7075 that is much weaker than one made from 6061 for example.
CE and UIAA are roughly equivalent in that they have standards that you can test your gear to and get certified. The EN number is the actual certification/standard that the gear got CE tested to. There are other numbers after the CE and those refer to the “notified body” (which is just a 3rd party that is certified to do the testing) that actually did the testing. CE is a European safety directive that has standards and certifications that cover all kinds of stuff from electronics to cars to industrial equipment etc Where UIAA is just for climbing and mountaineering specifically. Those are the two certifications that you want to see, other country specific certifications that I’m not so familiar with but I would not trust something that wasn’t harmonized to the CE/UIAA cert.
I checked the slacksnap chart and didn't see any carabineers pulled against the gate and would like to see if the second numbers are accurate for pulling in that direction and how it breaks
Welp, knock-offs, be as they may, they appear to be scoring higher results than their rated labeling compared to your new/old black diamond video i watched, not to mention theyre damn consistent. Love these videos. Brilliant. Ive literally just been asking myself if i would purchase off-brand cheaper as i scathed deals on ebay and amazon for carabiners. I appreciate your POV on supporting established innovative brands. I was really surprised, though, to see in the other video the black diamonds that didnt even score at what they were rated. And the one that even broke at 18kn. As far as my life goes, i would pay MORE to have an actually higher rated device than what it even claims to be in its label, but if i can get that device, AND have greater peace of mind for EVEN CHEAPER... Competition sucks. Whats up with the patents out there? Seriously, i have to say though, props for copying a product and then actually fabricating it better. Lol. Lets be honest, thats not what any of us were expecting nor want to admit! Lol. The chinese have been doing this for the last decade or so. Everything (and i mean anything) used to be crap but they upped their game, hard, and the quality of chinese fabrication has increased tremendously over the last decade-ish. Ps, i recently watched a show on hulu about satellite images around the world. Quick story: In one episode someone noted an image taken above China of a military factory. On its premises set what appeared to be an F-117 Stealth Bomber. What?! How??? Did they duplicate it? Did they steal it??? The US is the only country in the world with the stealth technology capabilities of the F-117. If China copied it, then...duh, that really sucks. Well, out of some 60 planes that were produced and all the succesful bombings they executed it turns out ONLY 1 Was shot down. Haha. Yep, the front cockpit portion was retrieved but the hind 3/4 of body was not found. Sure 'nuff, in the satellite image, you can see the plane is missing its front nose. China ended up with the Bomber! Finders Keeeperz. 😈👿😈 Well, within the subsequent decade of that bomber being shot down China released its first fighter plane, and thats right, it was the first Chinese STEALTH fighter! Haha. Moral of the story, if China is going to knock off technology from a $111.2 Million dollar stealth aircraft....mmmyeh, they, apparently, could give two sh**s about knocking off a $20-$35 carabiner 😂🤣🤭
Not into climbing sports but I am an auto mechanic and know the importance of good tools . Great vid . I was thinking of those cheap carabiner that people hang their keys on . I would not have guessed that a good name brand part could take 6000 lbs of pull .
Certification bodies for carabiners: UIAA (Union Internationale des Associations d'Alpinisme): International mountaineering federation. Sets global standards for climbing equipment, including carabiners. Look for the UIAA symbol on carabiners for basic climbing and rappelling. CE (Conformité Européenne): European safety marking. Indicates compliance with relevant European Union safety directives for various products, including carabiners. ANSI (American National Standards Institute): U.S. national organization for developing safety standards. Sets standards for carabiners used in industrial settings and some recreational activities.
Honestly it depends on usage. I recently picked up a set of Freskaro aluminum twistlock 25Kn carabiners, and also a couple of steel VLBOTE 45Kn twistlock carabiners for my overhead tool retention needs. Buying name brand carabiners to retain at most a 20lb tool(I honestly can't think of a tool I'd have up there weighing more than a pound), that are being connected to anchors rated at 5lb(belt loop) or 60lbs(anchor point for manbasket), makes no sense.
I bought some Freshkaro carbiners which look identical to the Favofit ones you tested. It's good to know they exceed their ratings. Thanks for testing these.
What you are talking about near 13:00 is actually a principle in material science called fatigue. The interesting thing about steel is that there is a “fatigue limit”, which is a load, you could think of it as a % of MBS, that no matter how many times you apply it, will never cause the specimen to fail. Aluminum doesn’t have that.
Hi Ryan I though I would drop you a line on the marking after your video on Amazon Karabiners. I think a point for buying an Amazon karabiner opposed to a brand is the companies Quality system. Skylotec and the other big brands you show will have a very strict and well managed quality system for all parts of the business not just manufacturing. This means that every Karabiner is the same high standard. My concern is with the Amazon stuff you can have a good batch with great results but a week or month later they are crap as there is not control of manufacturing, raw materials testing or other critical pats to a business. I work for Skylotec a German sport and industrial manufacture of climbing and work at height equipment. You may like to look at some of our stuff also we have an office in Denver. The Director is Doug who is also a comity member for ANSI and was also heavily involved with European standards. Your question on EN and CE Karabiners are EN-362 industrial connectors and EN 12275 sport Karabiners. EN for industry may have some higher requirements than sport. In short EN is European Norm’s the standards to which equipment needs to be manufactured to. The EN standard is only a minimum standard to be met a good manufacture will exceed the standard. It is tested by a Notified body and if it passes awarded an EN type certificate. The certificate is not usually circulated to anyone outside of the manufacture, a Declaration of Conformity is used for this. With an EN certificate this will allows the CE mark to also be awarded the CE mark is not to say it is safe or fit for Use but rather fit for sale within the European union (EU) A CE mark will be followed by numbers these tell you which notified body carried out the testing. When buying equipment in the EU you should receive a copy of the Declaration of Conformity. This is a document produced by the manufacture to state it as been tested and conforms to the stated EN standard. There is one attached. For interest this Karabiner is unique to Skylotec the gate is patented as it will open with both a left or right twist. Only Skylotec Double Karabiners have this gate opening. Happy to help more if needed. Bob
Hey Ryan thanks for all the great content, ever considered testing Decathlon gear - decathlon is the biggest sports gear company in the world and they have their in-house climbing gear called Simmond. Its sooo much cheaper than other brands and im not sure if its as reliable. Also, would you ever consider testing the tear resistance of different ropes? Thanks again for all you do!
All climbing equipment is seriously tested to fullfill the safety standards. Especially when it comes to ropes,it is more important how the rope stretches and whether the requirements are met or not ! How much force can it stand when loaded over a sharp edge ? A lot of things allready tested by the rope manufactures themselfes, to get the CE-EN892 necessary fpr dynamic sport climbing ropes. You simply can´t test all that on a static pulling system. Dynamic fall testings are madatory.
I’ve been using Simond gear for many years and fully trust them. They are a French company that has been making mountaineering gear for over 100 years. Their production facility (for carabiners, ice axe, crampons etc) is based in France, so you can rest assured the quality control is great. The company was bought by Decathlon in 2008, if I’m not mistaken.
The EN 362 standard specifies the safety requirements and test methods for connectors used for working activities with the risk of fall from a height. CE marking indicates that a product has been assessed by the manufacturer and deemed to meet EU safety, health and environmental protection requirements. It is required for products manufactured anywhere in the world that are then marketed in the EU.
Black Diamond is renowned for stealing other's designs, making those products as cheaply as possible, and raising the price significantly. I can't speak for other name brands, (I'm sure they aren't all as pathetic as BD), but I would rather buy these no-name "knock-offs" than an overpriced BD "knock-off". They may have been cool BITD, but definitely not these days. Just my 2 cents. . . On a lighter note, I do love your videos! Thanks for what you do and keep it up!
So, I agree with your point that we should support companies that are innovating and not support companies that are just knocking off products from other brands. However, I'm not convinced BD is the best example of an innovator., at least not in recent years. Their offset nuts and brass offsets are pretty much direct knockoffs of DMM's. BD does have some innovations of their own (the cloth thumb loops on the Ultralight C4s and the collars on the X4s/Z4s, for example) but they're also guilty of knocking off other companies. There are lots of innovations happening with carabiners: I'm old enough to remember a time before I-beam construction where carabiners all weighed more. There are also a bunch of different ways to make wiregate carabiners snag-free so you don't have to carry the weight of a keylock gate: the hooded nose on WC Heliums or DMM Chimeras, the little wire nose cover on BD Hoodwires, or the little bulb on the CAMP Dyons that allows them to keylock a wire. For lockers there's the Edelrid Pure Slider's novel locking mechanism. Edelrid also has the bulletproof steel insert concept. But it's also worth noting that the Positron isn't one of those. A this point, none of the Positron's features are really innovative, and I'm not even sure the Positron came out before the Petzl Spirit Screwgate which has all the same features, but is 11g lighter. All that's to say, I'm definitely annoyed by knockoffs, but I'm not sure that any company is innocent of this, and I'm also not sure that knocking off the Positron is really harming innovation. I'd be much more bummed if someone knocked off that new dynamometer you're making. I hear the Totem patent is expiring soon and I fully expect all these innovative companies to copy the clearly-superior loading mechanism. :)
Of all the things America is great for, the internet and providing free knowledge to the world is probably the greatest humanitarian effort the world will ever see.
You may test carabiners at 15C room temp, -15C cold and 40C hot to observe the differences in results. Aluminum carabiners tend to break more easily due to differences in temperature as zinc is the primary element for the 7075 alloy.
I think it should be noted that unless these companies actually are making these things in a night shift or something, they are almost certainly only copying the look of whatever biner it looks like, not stealing the engineering work of the original manufacturer per se. It's not quite the same as copying software or a particular mechanical design.
Check out our new store! hownot2.store/
Chinese climbing gear is great for 2 reasons:
1. You get cheap gear
2. It will be with you until the end of your life
at least part of it will be with you until the end ;)
the other part will be flying off and supporting the nature with some Aluminum :)
which will be very soon should you use this bullshit
Love it!
cheap cigs cheap cigs - those cheap cigs make you irritable sonny? try marlboros and mydol, private ignorance...
Lifetime guarantee
UIAA -> Approved for Mountaineering (tested by UIAA)
EN -> Stamp of the European Norm the Product is rated on (can be done without independent tests)
CE -> The manufacturer says, the product stands up to European Law and Norms (No independent test required)
Edit* CE [Number] -> if there is a number behind the CE, it is the number of a 'notifying body' who has done independent test.
I though the CE stood for china export? Or at least that is what other stuff has it on there for.
@@haydenhiegel9849 Common saying xD CE stands for ' Conformité Européenne ' so that it is conform to Europe Standards, HOWEVER any manufacturer can just slap it on there without any test, that's why it is loved for chinese products as some type of 'approval-seal'. Tecnically every product sold in the EU should have CE, but usually that goes along with a lot more norms and test, at least with legit products.
And the numbers after EN indicates which norm they are conforming to. In this case EN 362 is for personal protection against falls and EN 12275 is personal protection equipment for mounterering, climbing and similar.
And certified CE - EN products has to be proofed by certification Institutes. They are numbered too, like ce0123, is proofed by that defined company. Somewhere in the Internet,you can find all the companies allowed testing, to get that certification document.So of course,the label CE ist printed by the manufacturer, but there is a real independent test before that too. Or should be. False Labels could bei possible, but it is controlled, and mostly, it can be trusted.
@@haydenhiegel9849 CE = China Export is an urban legend, which has been debunked by the European Commision itself, there are however companies which misuse the CE mark www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=P-2007-5938&language=EN
You guys should test the amazon climbing rope also!
I think the break strength isn’t the main issue, it’s the core material and resulting durability issue, just a guess lol I’d like to see it break too tho
Yes. I use it and want to know how in danger I am.
Yes, i have been using it. One for abseiling and one as a backup. It seems plenty strong enough, however i have noticed it stretching. I have just bought a Petzl one to replace it. I think i will change any rope after a couple of years anyway, just for piece of mind
@@EscarpmentClimbingmine has a metal cable going through it
YES. THIS!!
"All carabiners are made in China"
Except the ones made in Wales (DMM), Bavaria (Edelrid), France (Petzl, Simond), Italy (Grivel at least, not sure about Camp or Kong), Czechia (Ocun) ...
Yeah also Kong produces everything in Italy, while camp I think not entirely, cause it has like subsidiaries in the USA, France and Russia, so I think they produce something out there, but they still produce in Italy too for sure.
And austria alpin, in stubai vally......
BD in USA, Metolius in Taiwan. If anything I'd say most reputable carabiners are *not* made in China.
Yeh fucked up a bit saying that haha
That is the fastest way to find out where stuff is made. Saying it's all made in china haha. Interesting! Do any american brands make their products in america?
Just to add something interesting: manufacturers have to pay the UIAA each year to keep their products certified. Sometimes they just "forget" to pay. For example Fixe (a Spanish brand that is producing gear widely used in bolting cliffs, also Roca/Fixe ropes, Aliens cams and more) have been marked as "cancelled" on the UIAA website for 3 whole years! And yes they kept producing and selling gear marked as certified for this period. Now they're back on the UIAA website, but when I tried (for 2 years!) to get answers from them they just hung up the phone or ignored me on Facebook... The UIAA just told me "Our records show that they have not made payments for the use of the UIAA logo". So yeah that is shady, and that's from a very reputable company. So I wouldn't put too much trust in the UIAA process as manufacturers seem to just not worry about it very much, even the big ones.
It’s actually kind of a racket. It literally costs thousands of dollars to certify every individual product in a company’s lineup.
@gumwap1 I doubt it's cheap to do the testing with use of certified, precise tooling and knowledgeable staff to ensure that climbing gear is up to acceptable standards.
@@gumwap1I get that it’s expensive but it’s def not a racket for life saving equipment. You have to ensure your manufacturing process is validated and continues to be in spec through the years to make sure the products are ACTUALLY as strong as they say.
The design strength is not all that matters. Machines and material can get it of spec and could put out products that are not super strong enough even if they look exactly the same.
If the certification is so important to the safety of the sport, UIAA should not be charging thousands of dollars for testing.
@@don7294 "It'd be a shame if someone came by and damaged your business. We can protect you for a year if you pay us"
"It'd be a shame if you couldn't claim to be certified anymore despite your product not changing in any way. You can use our logo for a year if you pay us"
It's a racket
Also a mention on standards. The subtle differences between them is unimportant to me, but I'm not concerned if UIAA cert is lacking as long as it has a CE number, that is also super good enough. The ones tested did have a CE number on the spine (assuming a product labeled as such is genuinely certified). Great video, although not actually donated anything yet, I did sign up to Patreon as a result of watching it
This testing was valuable to me, thanks so much for doing it.
China brand carabiners aren't that much of a draw as major US and European brands are very affordable even when paying fully price in a physical climbing store.
However, stuff like pulleys and ascenders. Those are expensive. A pulley from petzl or DMM can be $70-80 ascenders even more. Whilst the China brands or no name products are less than half the price so they are very very appealing if they are actually safe.
Also FWIW, metal climbing hardware is very much still made in Europe and USA.
The main manufacturers in Europe for metal hardware seems to be DMM, ISC, Kong and Camp. The former two in Wales and the latter two in Italy. I wouldn't be surprised if the brands in the same countries , share resources.
Well, Xinda for example is certified as respecting the European Union minimums (CE EN: XXXXX), and i also think you can find the products on the UIAA's validated products page, so whatever if it as a US certificate or not ^^ if it's good enough in europe it also is in the US
I have a bunch of Xinda stuff. It's all well built. But don't trust manufacturers, trust independent testing and certification.
Great content thank you very much. As a Chinese outdoor lover, I would love to share another side of the perspective here.
Those Chinese UIAA-certified Carabiners Normally sell here in China at 7 USD, and also En-certified Fall-back -up around 35USD. those brand you list here is not really popular around the Climbing community here as well, but with lots of good positive review in Rope Access worker here. Here high rise windows cleaners normally make 400-800 RMB ( 70-120 USD) per day. if you ask them to get an ASAP, they might take their chances up there.
As a Chinese it is sad to see most of the companies just copy stuff over. on the other hand it is good to see at least they can hold what they are showing on the label.
Once again, thank you for those tests.
I feel bad for the average people in china that have to live with the stigma too, even if it has a kernel of truth.
What are some reputable chinese companies that are popular over there?
Btw I'm mexican, so I know a little bit about stereotypes that have a kernel of truth lol
Another reason to not support the knock off brands: even if a few items are sufficiently strong, there is not guarantee that they have the appropriate quality control. IE a 10% defect rate is not acceptable. And poor quality control is known from other knockoff chinese manufacturers (ex. the recent KN-94 mask recalls in EU)
Matthew Petroff I agree
Accusation based on presumption.
The Masks was because EU was buying from small Chinese companies, these small companies are not qualified, but EU still brought from them for cheap price, who is to blame? All the mask donated by Chinese officials are all good quality.
@@mytube2013 I think it's alright to make assumptions when you're potentially falling 20+ feet
TBH: I'd see those carabiners not for use in climbing. But rather putting up hammocks or something. Anything where those 08/15 carabiners from the localc stores don't cut it, but you also don't put your life on it.
Covering the break test with a bag was like going to a strip club with a blindfold on. I am perfectly willing to sacrifice your safety for my viewing pleasure 😉
But honey, i was wearing a blindfold! haha
@@HowNOT2 you didn't see anything!? Well what did you do with the mortgage payment!?!
What I would really want to know is the brand and model of the 2 green carabineers that were used to hold the test carabineers!!!
Did you ever find out?
My local shop sells similar looking ones, they're probably more generic and industrial steel biners. Nice having one as a leaver biner but not nice for much else.
At 9:15 you can read the one on the right and they are Omega Brand and model 18. But I can only find model 16 available online.
@@ronnierowe6764 at 11:55 you can see the gate pop open on one of them
They look to be steel Omega Pacific D biners. Rated for 72Kn.
It's great to see someone test this Chinese stuff. For some reason folks like storrick and Mumford who thoroughly test everything, don't do tests on Chinese stuff.
But the advice you gave about anything labelled as 7075 being strong enough is actually rather wrong, dangerously so.
Firstly the manufacturer's can print whatever they feel like on the products, no one is going to come sue them.
Secondly, it takes a lot more than the elemental composition of a metal alloy to build appropriate strength into a load bearing lightweight product like a carabiner.
The metal must be heated and cooled in just the right way, in most load intensive items aluminium is usually cold forged which pummels the metal into the perfect shape with optimal crystal structure at microscopic level.
Every step has to be done perfectly and if it is, the strength of items like carabiners is usually a few magnitudes of what actut needs
This channel deserves more subs. Until I looked at it I assumed you had at least 250k, come to find out it's a tenth of that?! These videos are so well made and well informed and it's such a rare treat to come across someone as humble and open to new information as you. You actually seek out expertise and real science, far more than can be said of most youtubers
The have surpassed 250k now 😊
Can you test Amazon climbing ropes next?
First, let me say thank you for doing this. I have a three pack of one of these for keeping me safe when I get up on my roof.
I offer a few things for your consideration. There are probably millions of different situations around this world why a person might choose a cheaper version of an item whose patent is expired and therfore can be copied by anybody.
Secondly let's not kid ourselves about these big reputable companies only manufacturing in their country. Most use third world countries and China to do most of their manufacturing. Petzl state they have a manufacturing plant in Malaysia. (cheaper labor, yet charge as much for their equipment).
Many comments have already stated what might be the difference that is most important. Quality Control .QC in a communist country may not be as stringent or easily inspectable by the parent company as access unannounced is unlikely.
By demonstrating the products here you are by default sponsoring or supporting them. Can we be honest about the amount of innovation is really going into a carabiner these days. I only found one patent current, and the design has not changed significantly since the early 80's save the locking mechanism. I only researched for about three minutes before writing this though.
So don't be afraid to make a statement about weather the product is good or not. I assume you are using similar standards for testing or evaluating these certifications.
If I was on a budget, I might use these for climbing and I always belive in a standard that 2 is 1 and 1 is none. In addition to check, recheck and check again.
Thanks for your video.
Just trying to help you with the algorithm... A couple of times you mentioned having the right alloy. As I suspect you are aware, this is just a first step. The processing (forging, machining, heat treatment) is probably at least as important. It's almost always possible to turn the best material into junk with the incorrect or poorly controlled processing.
These chinese brands with UIAA and CE certifications arrive in third world countries for 1/3, sometimes 1/4 of the value of the BD and Petzl ones. Some of it is because of highly abusive taxes our country charges, so for each dollar it costs less, it is 2 dollars less expensive. Then, For every dolar it costs less, it is 6 times less expensive because of the currency (dollar vs. Brazilian Real currency these days). Then, when the local dealers import it, pay all the taxes and shit, they sell it for double the price they paid. And then stores, who purchased it from dealers, sell it for like 50 or 70% of the value they paid for. In that account, a U$5 biner gets here for like R$60~80 (U$15). In comparison a U$15 biner is sold in stores here for like R$150-170 (U$45). just that would be enough to justify, however, there´s more: For comparison, the minimum salary here today is less than U$200 and more than 80% of the population lives with it. One can have lunch in a restaurant for like U$5-10 (a cheap one), so a carabiner is more expensive than a meal.
So I guess these chinese carabiners play some social role of inclusion of people who would never have access to climbing gear due to many issues that don´t belong to this discussion right now.
I hope I brought a different point of view to the discussion, and just to clarify, I´m not defending the crap unrated biners, just the CE UIAA ones.
And by the way, the CE certification is a label that the product fits European minimum standards of environmental friendly production, safety for the customer and quality that allows products to be sold in European Comunity. CE is french for Conformitê European. For carabiners CE follows EN12275 wich is the document with the guidelines (rules) carabiners must follow). And, guess what, UIAA is the main organization behind those guidelines, despite UIAA standards are more strict. For example CE demands that a rope holds a number (I´ll guess 6) UIAA falls, while UIAA label guarantees 9 UIAA falls for that same specific kind of rope.
Congrats for the channel, keep up the good work!
Yeah. It's the same in mexico. The Chinese Brand is like 1/5 or 1/4 of the price of the main brands. For those same reasons currency exchange rate play against us plus the importing taxes. Those two things alone makes de things in mexico 1.5 or 2 times as expensive than if I buy them in USA but then there is the issue of getting de good delivered
it makes sense
So wouldn’t this be super good enough for doing some basic rappelling / canyoneering type stuff?
I've taken a look at those Xinda carabiners and they have some UIAA certificate, I checked it on a website, the certificate (I believe it was 121 connectors) was active.
At 9:20 the test performed causes one of the gold carabiners to unlock and partially open. I've been waiting for one to fail and noticed that.
Nothing has ever made my butt pucker faster than seeing you holding the exact same "big wall" lockers I have been using for years. :/ I'm glad they performed well but maybe I'll replace mine with a three-pack of positrons and send my old babies to you for breaking!
If you regularly check Steep and Cheap as well as Backcountry they frequently have sales on carabiners. I bought 4 Positrons at under $6 each not to long ago
I'm pretty sure the Big Wall lockers are UIAA certified
I bought the Amamaya one's you tested because they were rated at 30kN. I use them in a tree saddle for hunting. Glad to know it went way beyond that rating!
I live in a country where its reaaaaally hard to get climbing gear, and i found those Asol black and orange carabines, i feel Soooooo relieved to see they break at 38Kn!
Where are you? I could send you some videos and descriptions of the old ways before half of this stuff was invented? Let me know :)
@Max Gurth i do climbing, so i need carabiners much more than anchors, but thanks for the tip!
thanks for doing this test. I feel better now because i have many Xinda 25kn and fusion climb
To add to the existing clarifications about standards, UIAA mark means the product is tested by EN standards, plus some extra things to get the UIAA (as someone already said, sometimes the additional rules are bullshit and it just comes to paying money to get UIAA). This is because the EN standard was based on the early UIAA standards, and now the new UIAA standards are based on those EN standards. To see those few extra requirements which need to be satisfied to get the UIAA mark on top of the EN mark, you can go to the UIAA website www.theuiaa.org/safety-standards/ and check for each part of the equipment.
To be honest, I’m not going to buy these things or anything not certified and made by some company I’ve never heard of but I would also pay nearly twice as much for gear from established American companies who make all their stuff in the USA. If carabiners are like guitars and power tools, they are probably made in the same factory with the same materials to the owner’s spec and that’s the only difference. When it comes to certification, the only actual testing I’ve seen and had made available to me is from channels like this one. Knowing how incestuous some business relations are, I think I trust guys like you more than some organization with pressure and expectation to help get products to market. It’s just one of those things unfortunately. You guys are awesome. Keep it up.
Also - I had a career in assessing machinery and other types of stuff against the applicable standards - most people never ever read the standard.
CE standards usually have an appendix of declarations that describe the scenarios that fall outside of the standard. An item can rightly meet the CE or EN even if it has non conformities.
You can call an exception to the standard if you can prove "your way" is even more secure than the standard, and prove it. We do this lots of times
What's amazing is that the ropes can tolerate so much force, again and again, while the metal breaks.
?? No ropes were under any force again and again in this video??
FYI -- You mentioned how steel stretches and aluminum just breaks. This has a lot to do with how far the material is being "pushed", if you will. The 7075 aluminum is one of the strongest aluminums -- it's pushing the upper limit of strength for aluminum alloys. I don't know what steel is commonly used in climbing gear, but I suspect it is in the middle of the road strength wise.
As a general rule, the stronger you make a metal (or plastic for that matter), the more brittle it becomes and the less it will stretch before breaking. If you went to a weaker aluminum you would see it bend more before breaking, and if you went to a very high strength steel, you would see it snap without bending.
Whats funny is I had a go around with this concept with an engineer. Lets say you build a carabiner out of 6061 and 7075 aluminum. 6061 is stretchier so can take high cyclic loading but it's MBS is around 12kn vs the other one at 22kn... is. So yes, at 30% you are going to get a TON more cycles out of 6061 but if the same two carabiners were both put at 8kn... that is 66% of MBS on the 6061 vs 36%. Cycles are based on %. So the theory is the benefit of 6061 and the weakness cancel each other out and it would break around the same cycles as the 7075. What do you think?
@@HowNOT2 Here's an answer based on VERY limited research. This is based on only the first thing I got when I googled "7075 6061 fatigue curve" (ridiculously long link at bottom -- I hope). I used slightly different numbers than your example to better fall in the range of data they show in Fig 1.
They list the breaking strength of 6061-T6 as 468 MPa, and 7075-T6 as 764 MPa. At 200 MPa, 6061 would be at 43% of its breaking strength and 7075 would be at 26%. If you look at Fig 1, at 200 MPa 6061 appears to have a fatigue life at just under 100,000 cycles. Whereas, at the same 200 MPa, 7075 is about 1,000,000,000 cycles -- or 10,000 times as many cycles.
Or, looking at the same data in a different way, look at 1000,000 (1.E+06) cycles. To fail at this number of cycles, 6061 needs to be loaded to around 150 MPa, or 32% MBS. 7075 takes around 235 MPa, or 31% MBS.
From this single paper, I would NOT say that 6061 and 7075 will fail at the same number of cycles if loaded to the same percentage of their MBS (it's possible but for from conclusive). But, I would say it looks very unlikely that the extra stretchiness of 6061 (about 2 times as much according to the data in the paper) cancels out the lower strength as you suggested it might.
As a side note, it appears that in their test, a cycle consisted of putting the sample in both tension and compression to the specified load. I believe this is common in fatigue testing. A carabiner is basically never going to see compressive loading, so the total range of loading is only 1/2 as much. This reduced range of loading will increase the cycles before failure, but it definitely won't double them.
pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/278653/1-s2.0-S1877705810X00029/1-s2.0-S1877705810000081/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjECsaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJIMEYCIQCvOqk1HE6iEnsR3f91h%2FEiXpcQyzYlyaYqeF%2Bj07YmUwIhANvl2eoD2nL%2FGQ35tsrRTkUmJWykI274hWSm6DuJodzrKr0DCLP%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEQAxoMMDU5MDAzNTQ2ODY1Igy0N84upGZAKL1fGawqkQNzTqO0TtPNk7d2fYFV4KtxTIL%2FIffYf44WiXYDq1I8KwCJ3UKXB55FDCLTnEYO4UBqvrQf9QWekbGLBuk1ZEtZXRrApqycL6pYK%2FHgnnQxtJHDF8Y7zP%2B0m8RAUuV8DqUYBNYzAHPvi1qcpOj7CcdLnT9TBD2p60NSgcW4ENWiKFwpNY9p1icVpg0%2FdboM%2FYEvqaAvBCPSz96Bt8qYja2gtNvmukCa9CTCE2sJfzdVLB2jfRVhw8Q0zQEQU9XbW9p1Kw2DgWNjst9SjtLw0kFv7DBLiJDZGSewSJHCtrABrG5A58W3AgdAxgFglj11XkFb08H8CeX9cOuLxz%2BXT%2Ble0CMGHDis7qwse4T2zmXF4b2U7NIOrXl6qHSqF3kIs8nUnlZXn%2BoQke6ZKAntrwx4v1E7khj3n6bYu3UH41as0%2BSphb1rmRuCvpgMqlkOigNr80SvDx7g5Ut9ZqRoINXhyVDT7tuns3ePZ6QcSc7Xn%2BbxnRlcXFX%2F2eoUNZ3Q6CAGDP%2Bxh5jyi28THiY4W5lXOjDDstX3BTrqAX5o0xezZWe5tzA8JWlBQGVfX7BZJ7qTNoO8xdxsc99S1Y1HtYRyPNum4kImKg5a6hOX%2BDFT6iQwTReB8ZMXXII0%2F934Vonx6fUVB6mlAS5AWYNzuPY4IqjZ9Jv%2BLoUXAqw3bFHhb1y7RrgRXar%2B7SblUBSVPiQS3T6kZJ3h%2BbL%2B81sJAu5I4hz0uznUAhJHHJb3%2Fce4fKnShSrDru4blHsO1YrxYia4QTJeHrQ%2Ft3eWvk5t%2BHpyzJaX7g%2B3oDzoTdW6NBDcSb2W7%2BR9jBsipHn7VYzwEmVbngM8%2FFKpFf40fS9Ny6GKLqjJXA%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20200626T033242Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTY46WIY2B3%2F20200626%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=52bb94d5130fcd71ff0f6ace25dab6207fbcb68290f3281074a54b4b1882d457&hash=fc9323b489f074c391cbb0d06bdeebb3cb83471c20cede47137ae7ee3c74cf5e&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1877705810000081&tid=spdf-f75adc30-1d63-4169-a56a-02f3e9b3582f&sid=c7aca4666b53c9415d68f81-d21aa6204e55gxrqa&type=client
@@HowNOT2 So I gathered a couple more references:
www.researchgate.net/figure/SN-diagrams-for-7075-and-6061-aluminum-alloys-with-T6-temper-The-solid-curves-show-the_fig4_47510718
www.efatigue.com/training/Physics_of_Fatigue.pdf
In the first reference, the graph shows that at 200 MPa, 6061 fails at about 10,000 cycles (log 10,000 = 4), and 7075 fails at about 330,000 (log 330,000 = 5.5). And at 100 MPa, 6061 fails at about 500,000 cycles and 7075 at about 23,000,000 cycles. At the higher load, 7075 last "only" 33 times as long as 6061, and at the lower load 46 times longer. WAY less than the difference shown in the reference in my earlier reply.
Likewise, the second reference (on PDF page no. 43) shows that at the same 152 (probably MPa stress), 6061 has a life of 1,000,000 cycles, and 7075 is 100,000,000 cycles -- 100 times as long.
I knew relying on a single reference was a bad idea, but my wife said it was bed time. What's a man to do? Anyway, I think it's clear that 7075 will withstand substantially more cycles than 6061 at any given loading.
@@HowNOT2 I just learned something I find very counterintuitive from this video:
ruclips.net/video/io5lgF_DReQ/видео.html
That is, occasional applying a higher than normal load to a metal part will significantly INCREASE it's fatigue life. Note: he refers to this as an "overload", but by this I'm sure he just means a load that is significantly "over" the normal load, not a load that is greater than what the part is designed to take.
So, maybe the next time you take a big fall, you can just say you are improving the fatigue life of the metal hardware.
The applicable parts of the video are from 43:25 to 45:50 and a bit more at 52:15 to 53:50, or start at 53:50 if you prefer the explanation in Japanese. :)
As a climber, I understand your wallets pain.... Donated $20 to keep it goin! Great job guys!
Thanks! It helps. If I get enough $ I plan on putting it into a drop tower... that I will fit in :)
Although it might not have been in the Amazon description, that Xinda also has a UIAA certificate here is the link: safety.theuiaa.org/admin/certificate.php?IDLabel=5721
Maybe 'Kim' works for the UIAA 😅
The carabiner at 10:07 has a potentially serious flaw, where sub-optimal loading far away from the spine is likely. It would have been interesting to see its strength in that regime.
That was awesome and a little surprising. I'm of the same opinion that we should support the name brands who innovate and promote our sport, but it is good to know that I probably won't die if I or a friend have and use some of the knockoffs.
Checked the info in the description, and there's one thing that you might find that wasn't covered: ANSI. It's basically the same as EN but the standards are made in the US. Many EN standards have ANSI equivalents or near equivalents with differences usually being within what gets edited between editions (eg. you have an EN standard published in 2004 and republished in 2014 with minor edits; the ANSI equivalent published in 2008 will probably have some midpoint in the edit or go one way)
I love the channel guys and I climb trees for a living. Keep after it I want to see your channel keep growing
Maybe we can do some break tests with trees? I hear they are strong though :)
Id watch that
Tree climber as well, first view but now I'm interested!
I bought the first ones you tested, they’ve been great. Now i feel even safer knowing they break at 29Kn! Thanks
Exact same feeling. Didnt think it mattered but when I'm 15ft above them climbing in the back of my head I'm hearing does shit pass QA?
Same with me
An update if you're still using these, they were UIAA certified a month after this vid came out it looks like
same here, i got the favofit ones and ayamaya ones.
UIAA is a certification body for climbing and mountaineering, the number tells which standard the device was tested against.
CE means it conforms to EU rules for being sold (or if the logo is slightly different, that it is approved for export from China and shouldn't be trusted for anything.) This has nothing to do with safety testing, just materials and manufacture, not containing toxic stuff, etc.
EN is a European safety and technical standards mark, the number tells which standard the device was tested against.
All of these can be faked, they're just printed logos. Real carabiners and other equipment will come with an information packet, will have individual serial numbers and manufacture dates, etc.
Chinese Export Logo can be seen at 8:39.
Pretty disingenuous to design a logo to look just like CE.
To follow up / add more: The different standards specify exactly what tests must be done, how the tests are set up, how measurements are taken, etc. I couldn't find an English version for free (it's $50 for a PDF of the Irish version, $200 for the British, etc) but a German copy of EN 12275 (the standard for climbing and mountaineering carabiners) is on libgen at libgen.lc/standarts/get.php?md5=cd8cd630f35c5b481922a71e28711434
26 pages. It specifies break tests from different angles, not just the main axis. Gate open/closed. Bend tests. Corrosion resistance tests. Gate operation tests. Gate resistance (how hard it is to open). So there's a lot more to it than gets tested here, because there are a lot more actual concerns in practice than can be tested on a RUclips channel and still be entertaining. Also everything has to be tested with enough samples to get a good statistical distribution for mean & std deviation to get a valid MBS.
@@robbarchard Also the Problem is, that CE isn't listed anywhere, there are no independent test or anything. It just states the manufacturers intention to have it conform to European law/norms...
Tynogc Any carabiner which has a CE mark on it has been tested by a third party. You cannot self-certify PPE gear like carabiners.
Nice... put this in description. Thanks!
Where can we see the tests of the "good" carabiners?
Dude doesn't make enough to break 20$ biners all day
Cool video and thanks for post your test results.😀 I climb recreationally, but I do feel more comfortable about some of my online purchases now. Keep up the good work😀
Knock offs are great for "non-life safety" situations (Hammocks, storing gear, water bottles, etc). I trust all "life safety" equipment to only UIAA certified gear. When an actual life is on the line, I am willing to pay the premium.
Same rule applies for ropes, harnesses and more.
With time your channel may grow. This is how you will make more Guap. Good work bro. Keep it up!
As I read the two main Standarts for biners are UIAA 121 and EN12275.
The EN defines mainly how biners are break testet (major axis, Minor axis and major axis with open Gate) and wich forces they need to withstand.
Major: 20KN
- Oval 18KN
Minor: 7KN
open gate: - basic biner 7KN
- HSM biner 6KN
- oval 5KN
(For normal biners, ovals and HMS)
The EN also says somethings about gate openig (can a gate open, if there is a 15 mm bolt or two 11 mm bolts in the biner (via Ferrata 21 mm)).
The UIAA says base is the the EN qualifications as well as a brake test over an edge (only for via Ferrata) and a vage Notification that the cross section of biners should not be to small.
I do not guarantee for correctness of the Information.
CEN and UL are companies that test to or write product standards. They are different in that they have different jurisdictions, or requirements in their standards. CEN/CE/EN/IEC are all related to the European market wheras UL/IEEE/ANSI are for the US/NA market. Their standards are typically so similar that to have CE/UL is enough to confidently apply to the other market.
One more point to consider: if there is an issue (for example quality control related) named brand manufacturers will call back the product. The no name brand will go the cheap route to just stick a new no name and color on.
So basically everything was super good enough
What would a standard black diamond or petzl locking one break at?
Blows my mind you don't have more subscribers for the work y'all do.
Love your channel guys. I have a request. Can you do some test on adjustable knot strength. Prussia hitch, taut line hitch, adjustable grip hitch, ...etc. I am interested in finding out which is the strongest, easiest to use, and most reliable. Hopefully this test is not as expensive as most of your equipment test. 😁
Long comment.. I’m a retired test engineer for BCAG former MDC. Specifically, static test fixture for C-17A and T45 Goshhawk. We broke things like aircraft landing gear and wings. Millions of pounds. I tested in both static and dynamic modes. You’re close to performing a good test. All you need is a laptop, a load cell, a dummy load of like material, some strain gauges with 350 ohm value would be good enough, a small power supply for up to 20vdc, knowledge to put it all together. The hardest part is applying the the strain gauge to the material being tested. Then making a balanced Wheatstone Bridge at 350ohms. 3 leg dummy load on the same type material at the same temperature and one leg on the load material ie; the carabiner. Excite it with the power supply at 5-10vdc. Pick off the signal and feed it into a signal conditioner (purchased on line), calibrate for maybe 2.5mv/v, call that 2.5mv load a count. Interpret counts from volts and display a graph or number form on the laptop.
I left out something.. the load cell is the calibrated portion of the test. It’s calibrated in lbs from 0 to whatever value you require. It is the verifier of the load applied to the carabiner under load. The laptop will sample both inputs and graph or number form both actual values. Static tests are one time events. Dynamic tests are cycles of an operation like how many falls can a carabiner withstand before breaking at a given load.
One more comment regarding your “test stand”. You can protect yourself and view everything you do behind a chain mail curtain. Take a piece the size of a towel and place between you and the test fixture. You can see through it or better yet, view it through your camera view displayed in a safe area. I’ve witnessed small metal shards hitting folks like bullets. Better to be safe
The issue has to be about quality control on these unbranded ones. The good ones, sure, they test well, but how often do they make ones that have inherent faults? Do they have the rigourous inspection that (I assume!) the brands have? I would think not, as they do not have the same potential for reputational damage if a device is found to have failed prematurely.
Hi, physics teacher here. In reference to your explanation of pound versus kilonewton: Pounds are a measure of force in the imperial system of measurements. Newtons (and kilonewtons) are also measurements of force, except in the SI measurement standard.
In other words, they are the same thing, just measured along a different scale (excuse the bad pun). 1 kN is approximately 225 lb. I bet if you consistently divide the numbers on your two strain gauges, you'd get pretty consistent conversion numbers. The conversion between lb and kN is constant, meaning the conversion math stays the same in all gravitational environments.
Aren’t pounds a measure of mass like the kilograms?
@@paolopilotto8603 yes... but also no. There are actually two measures of pounds. Pounds of mass (short form - lbm), and pounds of force (short form - lbf), and arguably a third, the British Pound Sterling (a currency). But frankly, both suck, there is a reason why 99% of the world uses the metric system (only the USA, Liberia, and Myanmar (Burma) still use imperial)... then there is the UK, where they use a mix of metric, imperial, and some medieval measures like stones.
I think I heard once that Newton's are to kilograms as pounds are to slugs. The kilograms and slugs are units of mass, and once you multiply them by gravity (acceleration), you get the force units of lb and N. F=ma whether you're in metric or avoirdupois.
IIRC Black Diamond carabiners are made in Taiwan as of earlier this year. Black Diamond is also halting all remaining US production through the end of this year.
I think a lot of commentators are missing the point here. It's not just about how these are made, its the QA system that underpins them that is lacking in knock-off products. Of course they could pool together and produce their own independent test standards and batch sampling, chains of backlogging in order to isolate incidents of failure and eliminate the cause, but that is expensive. The UIAA and EN have done that intellectual work for them so it is cheaper for the manufacturer to buy into that. So a couple of random karabiners tested in this video did not fail at low loading - however, would you trust your life to that level of testing? If so, you should implicitly trust every person you meet because you have a friend who is ok... The standards testing process allows problems to be identified and the production logging allows the source of the error to be identified within a batch, allowing recall and product improvement. All of this is missing from a product that is simply designed to be (hopefully) over spec, which would counteract minor imperfections and blemishes. As mentioned elsewhere these producers don't contribute much to Research and design, although that is not necessarily the case, as their reduced overheads could enable them to invest in that instead. But you are unlikely to find cutting-edge performance in terms of weight to performance in these products. Not only are you risking your own life by supporting the production of knock-offs if you buy them, but you are also risking the lives of others such as your partner, or other activists if you leave stuff in situ, who might well make the assumption that your kit has been tested properly.
Thank you guys for providing us with this good footage and info. So you guys can provide with future snap footie, You guys should invest in a clear shield over your test area.
11:56. Was that steel carbiner locked? Seems to snap right back in place though.
Was looking for this comment. I think we found the brand to avoid right here if he'd tell us what it is.
Look at 11:53 for the really terrifying moment. Imagine seeing that on the slow-mo of a fall.
Something I'd also throw in the ring for testing: side release buckles for like 25 mm webbing and similar, to check if your backpack's just going to throw in the towel and say goodbye with significant drops and whatnot.
Great video! For all the back and forth about price, you make an important point in your comments about supporting brands that innovate and contribute to the culture. While knockoff hardware may be *almost* functionally equivalent to name brands, supporting companies that employ climbers, promote environmental awareness, and practice good corporate stewardship are big intangibles. It took me a long time to realize value doesn't always directly correlate with cost, and where you spend your money has a real impact.
CE certification can be a test a manufacturer can do themselves, but it depends on what type of product it is. Climbing gear that is classified as Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) class II and III (stuff that keeps you alive, like carabiners, slings, harnesses, cams, ropes, etc.) must be checked by a "notified body", which is an external company that verifies that the product does indeed live up to all the requirements before they're allowed to put a CE on the product, and there has to be a four digit code next to the CE stamp on the product that identifies the notifying body.
Other things, like for example PPE class I products, is stuff that is meant to protect you from very minor risks, things like gloves for example. These things still have a specification of what they need to be able to do in certain situations, but don't need to be verified by a notified body, so the manufacturer can do it themselves and then slap a CE stamp on them.
Pounds are a measure of force. Newtons are a measure of force. Same thing. One is metric and one is a relic of history that, for some reason, Americans can't stop using.
newtons are a more dynamic load measure. pounds does not account for gravity. at least not without math. Kn does the math for you. It is roughly 100 Kg/m. i Have to fall 35m to generate a 30 kN force. i am not used to the math but it is actually easy.
The million dollar question though… what’s the brand/link of the two carabiners you are using to connect the Caribbean or being tested. I want that one.
I worked as a rigger for a while, pretty much all our hardware was steel. We'd be lifting 20 ton loads on the regular. I keep dabbling into the climbing world and every time I wonder why everything's aluminum. Are there any significant benefits to aluminum beside the aesthetic value of the anodized coatings? Is it the weight savings? Using the bathroom before you climb's probably equivalent to the weight savings.
Weight obviously matters when you are climbing
It would be cool to see if the other two ratings are met... That would give a comprehensive perspective on safety of those biners.
This tested Xinda Carabiner is the model: XDQ9628. This model is certified by UIAA.
yes! Chinese knockoff ftw haha, im still wanting you to test Chinese knockoff ropes.. please!! haha
Love how the lighting mount for the slowmo is the perfect example of "if all you got is a hammer everything looks like a nail".
I feel like your test method misses the interesting ratings. No biner will break at 20 or more kN in any real life climbing situation. The critical ratings are open biner (for the non locking ones) and especially the sideload rating. These are often only 7 kN, which is a load that /can/ be reached even in (multi-pitch) sports climbing at a factor two fall.
EDIT: 7kN+ force can be seen even in non multi-pitch scenarios. The largest European climbing association thus suggests buying biners rated for 10 kN force of sideloading.
I would love to see tubular webbing tied into a sling slack snapped. After seeing how much dyneema slips and cuts itself in knots I would like know if similar things happen with webbing.
The brand really doesn't matter nearly as much as the certification.
Every brand was a no-name brand to me when I started out and had no idea what all these brands were. But as long as they had the CE-rating (I'm in Europe) and reputable shops stocked them, I trusted them.
Can these things hold a 80kg punching bag 🥺??
@@hiranhasaranga6450 The ones from Amazon or the real ones with the CE rating?
@@Chretze both👀
@@hiranhasaranga6450 The CE cfertified ones will hold it guaranteed, they're certified for multiple tons of weight.
The Amazon ones will most likely be sufficient too, a boxing bag like that doesn't experience any "falling" forces like they would in a climbing fall, so you should be good
@@Chretze alright thnx Bubba🥳
I watched a Chinese knockoff company take the exact design of one of the major products of one of my favorite motorcycle companies and sell it. That company was based in Seattle area. That company also had to go to lengthy and expensive lawsuits about it. I don't know if they won or not. They went out of business shortly thereafter. Apparently the other company still sells that design as far as I can tell.
12:58 actually verry good explanation of material fatigue. Fatigue breaking happens when the microfractures grow deep enough to the point where the effective mechanical resistance lowers bellow the force exerted by the cyclic load. The rule of thumb is the higher the load the less cycles are required to break and more cycles for lower loads. Ive seen fatigue breaking happening after milions of cycles for some cases of low ciclic load
I'm a bit of an engineer and am comfortable with electronics...but I'm not familiar with the exact things you're talking about...
If you could send me a list of parts you're looking at and a rough idea of how you would like to setup the tower, then I can probably figure out how to hook it all up....and if I don't, then I probably know people that do....
I'd be willing to buy everything on my own dime to test it out at my shop, then I would only ask that you reimburse me for parts when I ship it out to you...
No charge for labor or R&D for you guys!
Your videos are amazing! This one is fascinating.
I agree though. No frigging WAY I’m buying a generic brand of anything life-supporting.
What were the carabiners holding the carabiners you tested ? I want those.
same, industrial maybe?
@@VozzyVids They are Omega Pacific's i believe. Breaking Strength of 53kn.
It's not just about the Aluminium grade used, it's about how it is processed e.g.. the forging & heat treatment process. You can make a carbiner from 7075 that is much weaker than one made from 6061 for example.
CE and UIAA are roughly equivalent in that they have standards that you can test your gear to and get certified.
The EN number is the actual certification/standard that the gear got CE tested to.
There are other numbers after the CE and those refer to the “notified body” (which is just a 3rd party that is certified to do the testing) that actually did the testing.
CE is a European safety directive that has standards and certifications that cover all kinds of stuff from electronics to cars to industrial equipment etc Where UIAA is just for climbing and mountaineering specifically.
Those are the two certifications that you want to see, other country specific certifications that I’m not so familiar with but I would not trust something that wasn’t harmonized to the CE/UIAA cert.
I want to know what the carabiners were that you were using on each side of the ones you were breaking.
I checked the slacksnap chart and didn't see any carabineers pulled against the gate and would like to see if the second numbers are accurate for pulling in that direction and how it breaks
Welp, knock-offs, be as they may, they appear to be scoring higher results than their rated labeling compared to your new/old black diamond video i watched, not to mention theyre damn consistent.
Love these videos. Brilliant.
Ive literally just been asking myself if i would purchase off-brand cheaper as i scathed deals on ebay and amazon for carabiners.
I appreciate your POV on supporting established innovative brands.
I was really surprised, though, to see in the other video the black diamonds that didnt even score at what they were rated. And the one that even broke at 18kn.
As far as my life goes, i would pay MORE to have an actually higher rated device than what it even claims to be in its label, but if i can get that device, AND have greater peace of mind for EVEN CHEAPER...
Competition sucks. Whats up with the patents out there?
Seriously, i have to say though, props for copying a product and then actually fabricating it better. Lol. Lets be honest, thats not what any of us were expecting nor want to admit! Lol.
The chinese have been doing this for the last decade or so.
Everything (and i mean anything) used to be crap but they upped their game, hard, and the quality of chinese fabrication has increased tremendously over the last decade-ish.
Ps, i recently watched a show on hulu about satellite images around the world.
Quick story:
In one episode someone noted an image taken above China of a military factory. On its premises set what appeared to be an F-117 Stealth Bomber.
What?!
How???
Did they duplicate it?
Did they steal it???
The US is the only country in the world with the stealth technology capabilities of the F-117. If China copied it, then...duh, that really sucks.
Well, out of some 60 planes that were produced and all the succesful bombings they executed it turns out ONLY 1 Was shot down.
Haha. Yep, the front cockpit portion was retrieved but the hind 3/4 of body was not found.
Sure 'nuff, in the satellite image, you can see the plane is missing its front nose.
China ended up with the Bomber! Finders Keeeperz. 😈👿😈
Well, within the subsequent decade of that bomber being shot down China released its first fighter plane, and thats right, it was the first Chinese STEALTH fighter!
Haha.
Moral of the story, if China is going to knock off technology from a $111.2 Million dollar stealth aircraft....mmmyeh, they, apparently, could give two sh**s about knocking off a $20-$35 carabiner 😂🤣🤭
Not into climbing sports but I am an auto mechanic and know the importance of good tools . Great vid . I was thinking of those cheap carabiner that people hang their keys on . I would not have guessed that a good name brand part could take 6000 lbs of pull .
Certification bodies for carabiners:
UIAA (Union Internationale des Associations d'Alpinisme):
International mountaineering federation.
Sets global standards for climbing equipment, including carabiners.
Look for the UIAA symbol on carabiners for basic climbing and rappelling.
CE (Conformité Européenne):
European safety marking.
Indicates compliance with relevant European Union safety directives for various products, including carabiners.
ANSI (American National Standards Institute):
U.S. national organization for developing safety standards.
Sets standards for carabiners used in industrial settings and some recreational activities.
Honestly it depends on usage. I recently picked up a set of Freskaro aluminum twistlock 25Kn carabiners, and also a couple of steel VLBOTE 45Kn twistlock carabiners for my overhead tool retention needs. Buying name brand carabiners to retain at most a 20lb tool(I honestly can't think of a tool I'd have up there weighing more than a pound), that are being connected to anchors rated at 5lb(belt loop) or 60lbs(anchor point for manbasket), makes no sense.
I bought some Freshkaro carbiners which look identical to the Favofit ones you tested. It's good to know they exceed their ratings. Thanks for testing these.
What you are talking about near 13:00 is actually a principle in material science called fatigue. The interesting thing about steel is that there is a “fatigue limit”, which is a load, you could think of it as a % of MBS, that no matter how many times you apply it, will never cause the specimen to fail. Aluminum doesn’t have that.
Hello, do you think The ESEE RAT AF-818 Locking Carabiner. It’s going to be okey to half dome ? Thanks bro
Hi Ryan
I though I would drop you a line on the marking after your video on Amazon Karabiners. I think a point for buying an Amazon karabiner opposed to a brand is the companies Quality system. Skylotec and the other big brands you show will have a very strict and well managed quality system for all parts of the business not just manufacturing. This means that every Karabiner is the same high standard. My concern is with the Amazon stuff you can have a good batch with great results but a week or month later they are crap as there is not control of manufacturing, raw materials testing or other critical pats to a business.
I work for Skylotec a German sport and industrial manufacture of climbing and work at height equipment. You may like to look at some of our stuff also we have an office in Denver. The Director is Doug who is also a comity member for ANSI and was also heavily involved with European standards.
Your question on EN and CE
Karabiners are EN-362 industrial connectors and EN 12275 sport Karabiners. EN for industry may have some higher requirements than sport.
In short EN is European Norm’s the standards to which equipment needs to be manufactured to. The EN standard is only a minimum standard to be met a good manufacture will exceed the standard. It is tested by a Notified body and if it passes awarded an EN type certificate. The certificate is not usually circulated to anyone outside of the manufacture, a Declaration of Conformity is used for this.
With an EN certificate this will allows the CE mark to also be awarded the CE mark is not to say it is safe or fit for Use but rather fit for sale within the European union (EU)
A CE mark will be followed by numbers these tell you which notified body carried out the testing.
When buying equipment in the EU you should receive a copy of the Declaration of Conformity. This is a document produced by the manufacture to state it as been tested and conforms to the stated EN standard. There is one attached.
For interest this Karabiner is unique to Skylotec the gate is patented as it will open with both a left or right twist. Only Skylotec Double Karabiners have this gate opening.
Happy to help more if needed.
Bob
"38.9 kN"
That's more than the thrust of a Shenyang J-5 (Chinese MiG-17) at full afterburner. Not much of a safety margin but still...
That coffee table would be awesome. I want to make one with rope off cuts in it.
Hey Ryan thanks for all the great content, ever considered testing Decathlon gear - decathlon is the biggest sports gear company in the world and they have their in-house climbing gear called Simmond. Its sooo much cheaper than other brands and im not sure if its as reliable.
Also, would you ever consider testing the tear resistance of different ropes?
Thanks again for all you do!
All climbing equipment is seriously tested to fullfill the safety standards.
Especially when it comes to ropes,it is more important how the rope stretches and whether the requirements are met or not !
How much force can it stand when loaded over a sharp edge ?
A lot of things allready tested by the rope manufactures themselfes, to get the CE-EN892 necessary fpr dynamic sport climbing ropes.
You simply can´t test all that on a static pulling system. Dynamic fall testings are madatory.
I’ve been using Simond gear for many years and fully trust them. They are a French company that has been making mountaineering gear for over 100 years. Their production facility (for carabiners, ice axe, crampons etc) is based in France, so you can rest assured the quality control is great. The company was bought by Decathlon in 2008, if I’m not mistaken.
Trust but verify, that should be your motto.
The EN 362 standard specifies the safety requirements and test methods for connectors used for working activities with the risk of fall from a height. CE marking indicates that a product has been assessed by the manufacturer and deemed to meet EU safety, health and environmental protection requirements. It is required for products manufactured anywhere in the world that are then marketed in the EU.
Black Diamond is renowned for stealing other's designs, making those products as cheaply as possible, and raising the price significantly. I can't speak for other name brands, (I'm sure they aren't all as pathetic as BD), but I would rather buy these no-name "knock-offs" than an overpriced BD "knock-off". They may have been cool BITD, but definitely not these days. Just my 2 cents. . . On a lighter note, I do love your videos! Thanks for what you do and keep it up!
So who's to say all the batches made of these Chinese carabiners will be the same quality?.
thanks for this. i like the Xinda design. Now, with a clear conscience, I will be able to buy them :D
So, I agree with your point that we should support companies that are innovating and not support companies that are just knocking off products from other brands.
However, I'm not convinced BD is the best example of an innovator., at least not in recent years. Their offset nuts and brass offsets are pretty much direct knockoffs of DMM's. BD does have some innovations of their own (the cloth thumb loops on the Ultralight C4s and the collars on the X4s/Z4s, for example) but they're also guilty of knocking off other companies.
There are lots of innovations happening with carabiners: I'm old enough to remember a time before I-beam construction where carabiners all weighed more. There are also a bunch of different ways to make wiregate carabiners snag-free so you don't have to carry the weight of a keylock gate: the hooded nose on WC Heliums or DMM Chimeras, the little wire nose cover on BD Hoodwires, or the little bulb on the CAMP Dyons that allows them to keylock a wire. For lockers there's the Edelrid Pure Slider's novel locking mechanism. Edelrid also has the bulletproof steel insert concept.
But it's also worth noting that the Positron isn't one of those. A this point, none of the Positron's features are really innovative, and I'm not even sure the Positron came out before the Petzl Spirit Screwgate which has all the same features, but is 11g lighter.
All that's to say, I'm definitely annoyed by knockoffs, but I'm not sure that any company is innocent of this, and I'm also not sure that knocking off the Positron is really harming innovation. I'd be much more bummed if someone knocked off that new dynamometer you're making.
I hear the Totem patent is expiring soon and I fully expect all these innovative companies to copy the clearly-superior loading mechanism. :)
Of all the things America is great for, the internet and providing free knowledge to the world is probably the greatest humanitarian effort the world will ever see.
You may test carabiners at 15C room temp, -15C cold and 40C hot to observe the differences in results. Aluminum carabiners tend to break more easily due to differences in temperature as zinc is the primary element for the 7075 alloy.
I think it should be noted that unless these companies actually are making these things in a night shift or something, they are almost certainly only copying the look of whatever biner it looks like, not stealing the engineering work of the original manufacturer per se. It's not quite the same as copying software or a particular mechanical design.
I know you just did this but can you cross load test some of these? Would be interesting to see.