Amazon Chinese Knockoff Climbing Carabiners TESTED
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- Опубликовано: 23 июн 2020
- You asked, we finally did it! We tested 3 of each amazon knock off carabiners. Xinda, Favofit, Ayamaya and Big Wall Traverse brands (@Sam_Moritz donated the Traverse biners). Some are UIAA rated, some are not, some say they are… and are not. They all broke super good enough but we should support the name brands who are actually innovating. Will not link to these carabiners as I do not want to support them more than I already have brought attention to them. And don’t accidentally buy 12kn carabiners!!! They look the same on amazon. To see outdated UIAA rating on Big Wall Traverse, go to www.theuiaa.org/safety-standa... and type in “Traverse” then click box for Extended search for old products and you will see the outdated cert.
Good info from SAI Peregrinus
UIAA is a certification body for climbing and mountaineering, the number tells which standard the device was tested against.
CE means it conforms to EU rules for being sold (or if the logo is slightly different, that it is approved for export from China and shouldn't be trusted for anything.) This has nothing to do with safety testing, just materials and manufacture, not containing toxic stuff, etc.
EN is a European safety and technical standards mark, the number tells which standard the device was tested against.
All of these can be faked, they're just printed logos. Real carabiners and other equipment will come with an information packet, will have individual serial numbers and manufacture dates, etc.
More good info from Dennis Van Hoek
EN: tested in a European Norm accredited laboratory.
UIAA: Pay another $500 on top of the EN test for the UIAA label
CE: Test you do yourself following certain guidelines (aka slack snap)
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Chinese climbing gear is great for 2 reasons:
1. You get cheap gear
2. It will be with you until the end of your life
at least part of it will be with you until the end ;)
the other part will be flying off and supporting the nature with some Aluminum :)
which will be very soon should you use this bullshit
Love it!
cheap cigs cheap cigs - those cheap cigs make you irritable sonny? try marlboros and mydol, private ignorance...
Lifetime guarantee
You guys should test the amazon climbing rope also!
I think the break strength isn’t the main issue, it’s the core material and resulting durability issue, just a guess lol I’d like to see it break too tho
Yes. I use it and want to know how in danger I am.
Yes, i have been using it. One for abseiling and one as a backup. It seems plenty strong enough, however i have noticed it stretching. I have just bought a Petzl one to replace it. I think i will change any rope after a couple of years anyway, just for piece of mind
@@EscarpmentClimbingmine has a metal cable going through it
YES. THIS!!
UIAA -> Approved for Mountaineering (tested by UIAA)
EN -> Stamp of the European Norm the Product is rated on (can be done without independent tests)
CE -> The manufacturer says, the product stands up to European Law and Norms (No independent test required)
Edit* CE [Number] -> if there is a number behind the CE, it is the number of a 'notifying body' who has done independent test.
I though the CE stood for china export? Or at least that is what other stuff has it on there for.
@@haydenhiegel9849 Common saying xD CE stands for ' Conformité Européenne ' so that it is conform to Europe Standards, HOWEVER any manufacturer can just slap it on there without any test, that's why it is loved for chinese products as some type of 'approval-seal'. Tecnically every product sold in the EU should have CE, but usually that goes along with a lot more norms and test, at least with legit products.
And the numbers after EN indicates which norm they are conforming to. In this case EN 362 is for personal protection against falls and EN 12275 is personal protection equipment for mounterering, climbing and similar.
And certified CE - EN products has to be proofed by certification Institutes. They are numbered too, like ce0123, is proofed by that defined company. Somewhere in the Internet,you can find all the companies allowed testing, to get that certification document.So of course,the label CE ist printed by the manufacturer, but there is a real independent test before that too. Or should be. False Labels could bei possible, but it is controlled, and mostly, it can be trusted.
@@haydenhiegel9849 CE = China Export is an urban legend, which has been debunked by the European Commision itself, there are however companies which misuse the CE mark www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=P-2007-5938&language=EN
"All carabiners are made in China"
Except the ones made in Wales (DMM), Bavaria (Edelrid), France (Petzl, Simond), Italy (Grivel at least, not sure about Camp or Kong), Czechia (Ocun) ...
Yeah also Kong produces everything in Italy, while camp I think not entirely, cause it has like subsidiaries in the USA, France and Russia, so I think they produce something out there, but they still produce in Italy too for sure.
And austria alpin, in stubai vally......
BD in USA, Metolius in Taiwan. If anything I'd say most reputable carabiners are *not* made in China.
Yeh fucked up a bit saying that haha
That is the fastest way to find out where stuff is made. Saying it's all made in china haha. Interesting! Do any american brands make their products in america?
Just to add something interesting: manufacturers have to pay the UIAA each year to keep their products certified. Sometimes they just "forget" to pay. For example Fixe (a Spanish brand that is producing gear widely used in bolting cliffs, also Roca/Fixe ropes, Aliens cams and more) have been marked as "cancelled" on the UIAA website for 3 whole years! And yes they kept producing and selling gear marked as certified for this period. Now they're back on the UIAA website, but when I tried (for 2 years!) to get answers from them they just hung up the phone or ignored me on Facebook... The UIAA just told me "Our records show that they have not made payments for the use of the UIAA logo". So yeah that is shady, and that's from a very reputable company. So I wouldn't put too much trust in the UIAA process as manufacturers seem to just not worry about it very much, even the big ones.
It’s actually kind of a racket. It literally costs thousands of dollars to certify every individual product in a company’s lineup.
@gumwap1 I doubt it's cheap to do the testing with use of certified, precise tooling and knowledgeable staff to ensure that climbing gear is up to acceptable standards.
@@gumwap1I get that it’s expensive but it’s def not a racket for life saving equipment. You have to ensure your manufacturing process is validated and continues to be in spec through the years to make sure the products are ACTUALLY as strong as they say.
The design strength is not all that matters. Machines and material can get it of spec and could put out products that are not super strong enough even if they look exactly the same.
If the certification is so important to the safety of the sport, UIAA should not be charging thousands of dollars for testing.
@@don7294 "It'd be a shame if someone came by and damaged your business. We can protect you for a year if you pay us"
"It'd be a shame if you couldn't claim to be certified anymore despite your product not changing in any way. You can use our logo for a year if you pay us"
It's a racket
Covering the break test with a bag was like going to a strip club with a blindfold on. I am perfectly willing to sacrifice your safety for my viewing pleasure 😉
But honey, i was wearing a blindfold! haha
@@HowNOT2 you didn't see anything!? Well what did you do with the mortgage payment!?!
This testing was valuable to me, thanks so much for doing it.
China brand carabiners aren't that much of a draw as major US and European brands are very affordable even when paying fully price in a physical climbing store.
However, stuff like pulleys and ascenders. Those are expensive. A pulley from petzl or DMM can be $70-80 ascenders even more. Whilst the China brands or no name products are less than half the price so they are very very appealing if they are actually safe.
Also FWIW, metal climbing hardware is very much still made in Europe and USA.
The main manufacturers in Europe for metal hardware seems to be DMM, ISC, Kong and Camp. The former two in Wales and the latter two in Italy. I wouldn't be surprised if the brands in the same countries , share resources.
Cool video and thanks for post your test results.😀 I climb recreationally, but I do feel more comfortable about some of my online purchases now. Keep up the good work😀
Great content thank you very much. As a Chinese outdoor lover, I would love to share another side of the perspective here.
Those Chinese UIAA-certified Carabiners Normally sell here in China at 7 USD, and also En-certified Fall-back -up around 35USD. those brand you list here is not really popular around the Climbing community here as well, but with lots of good positive review in Rope Access worker here. Here high rise windows cleaners normally make 400-800 RMB ( 70-120 USD) per day. if you ask them to get an ASAP, they might take their chances up there.
As a Chinese it is sad to see most of the companies just copy stuff over. on the other hand it is good to see at least they can hold what they are showing on the label.
Once again, thank you for those tests.
Also a mention on standards. The subtle differences between them is unimportant to me, but I'm not concerned if UIAA cert is lacking as long as it has a CE number, that is also super good enough. The ones tested did have a CE number on the spine (assuming a product labeled as such is genuinely certified). Great video, although not actually donated anything yet, I did sign up to Patreon as a result of watching it
I bought the Amamaya one's you tested because they were rated at 30kN. I use them in a tree saddle for hunting. Glad to know it went way beyond that rating!
Nothing has ever made my butt pucker faster than seeing you holding the exact same "big wall" lockers I have been using for years. :/ I'm glad they performed well but maybe I'll replace mine with a three-pack of positrons and send my old babies to you for breaking!
If you regularly check Steep and Cheap as well as Backcountry they frequently have sales on carabiners. I bought 4 Positrons at under $6 each not to long ago
I'm pretty sure the Big Wall lockers are UIAA certified
With time your channel may grow. This is how you will make more Guap. Good work bro. Keep it up!
Keep up the good work! Awesome and thanks from Australia!
It's great to see someone test this Chinese stuff. For some reason folks like storrick and Mumford who thoroughly test everything, don't do tests on Chinese stuff.
But the advice you gave about anything labelled as 7075 being strong enough is actually rather wrong, dangerously so.
Firstly the manufacturer's can print whatever they feel like on the products, no one is going to come sue them.
Secondly, it takes a lot more than the elemental composition of a metal alloy to build appropriate strength into a load bearing lightweight product like a carabiner.
The metal must be heated and cooled in just the right way, in most load intensive items aluminium is usually cold forged which pummels the metal into the perfect shape with optimal crystal structure at microscopic level.
Every step has to be done perfectly and if it is, the strength of items like carabiners is usually a few magnitudes of what actut needs
This channel deserves more subs. Until I looked at it I assumed you had at least 250k, come to find out it's a tenth of that?! These videos are so well made and well informed and it's such a rare treat to come across someone as humble and open to new information as you. You actually seek out expertise and real science, far more than can be said of most youtubers
The have surpassed 250k now 😊
Well, Xinda for example is certified as respecting the European Union minimums (CE EN: XXXXX), and i also think you can find the products on the UIAA's validated products page, so whatever if it as a US certificate or not ^^ if it's good enough in europe it also is in the US
I have a bunch of Xinda stuff. It's all well built. But don't trust manufacturers, trust independent testing and certification.
thanks for doing this test. I feel better now because i have many Xinda 25kn and fusion climb
I love the channel guys and I climb trees for a living. Keep after it I want to see your channel keep growing
Maybe we can do some break tests with trees? I hear they are strong though :)
Id watch that
Tree climber as well, first view but now I'm interested!
Love how the lighting mount for the slowmo is the perfect example of "if all you got is a hammer everything looks like a nail".
That was awesome and a little surprising. I'm of the same opinion that we should support the name brands who innovate and promote our sport, but it is good to know that I probably won't die if I or a friend have and use some of the knockoffs.
Thank you guys for providing us with this good footage and info. So you guys can provide with future snap footie, You guys should invest in a clear shield over your test area.
thanks for this. i like the Xinda design. Now, with a clear conscience, I will be able to buy them :D
Another reason to not support the knock off brands: even if a few items are sufficiently strong, there is not guarantee that they have the appropriate quality control. IE a 10% defect rate is not acceptable. And poor quality control is known from other knockoff chinese manufacturers (ex. the recent KN-94 mask recalls in EU)
Matthew Petroff I agree
Accusation based on presumption.
The Masks was because EU was buying from small Chinese companies, these small companies are not qualified, but EU still brought from them for cheap price, who is to blame? All the mask donated by Chinese officials are all good quality.
@@mytube2013 I think it's alright to make assumptions when you're potentially falling 20+ feet
TBH: I'd see those carabiners not for use in climbing. But rather putting up hammocks or something. Anything where those 08/15 carabiners from the localc stores don't cut it, but you also don't put your life on it.
Can you test Amazon climbing ropes next?
Hello, I discovered your channel a short time ago and although I do not speak English I love to see the tests of material that you do.
So based on the tests you've done, do you recommend XINDA brand material?
Great video! Thanks
Not into climbing sports but I am an auto mechanic and know the importance of good tools . Great vid . I was thinking of those cheap carabiner that people hang their keys on . I would not have guessed that a good name brand part could take 6000 lbs of pull .
Love your channel guys. I have a request. Can you do some test on adjustable knot strength. Prussia hitch, taut line hitch, adjustable grip hitch, ...etc. I am interested in finding out which is the strongest, easiest to use, and most reliable. Hopefully this test is not as expensive as most of your equipment test. 😁
Just trying to help you with the algorithm... A couple of times you mentioned having the right alloy. As I suspect you are aware, this is just a first step. The processing (forging, machining, heat treatment) is probably at least as important. It's almost always possible to turn the best material into junk with the incorrect or poorly controlled processing.
Excellent video!!!
Thanks for the test
Hello, do you think The ESEE RAT AF-818 Locking Carabiner. It’s going to be okey to half dome ? Thanks bro
Was going to comment about the EU CE mark and the similar CE China export mark which is worthless but you got it covered in your description , nice one
To be honest, I’m not going to buy these things or anything not certified and made by some company I’ve never heard of but I would also pay nearly twice as much for gear from established American companies who make all their stuff in the USA. If carabiners are like guitars and power tools, they are probably made in the same factory with the same materials to the owner’s spec and that’s the only difference. When it comes to certification, the only actual testing I’ve seen and had made available to me is from channels like this one. Knowing how incestuous some business relations are, I think I trust guys like you more than some organization with pressure and expectation to help get products to market. It’s just one of those things unfortunately. You guys are awesome. Keep it up.
That coffee table would be cool! I vote for that.
These chinese brands with UIAA and CE certifications arrive in third world countries for 1/3, sometimes 1/4 of the value of the BD and Petzl ones. Some of it is because of highly abusive taxes our country charges, so for each dollar it costs less, it is 2 dollars less expensive. Then, For every dolar it costs less, it is 6 times less expensive because of the currency (dollar vs. Brazilian Real currency these days). Then, when the local dealers import it, pay all the taxes and shit, they sell it for double the price they paid. And then stores, who purchased it from dealers, sell it for like 50 or 70% of the value they paid for. In that account, a U$5 biner gets here for like R$60~80 (U$15). In comparison a U$15 biner is sold in stores here for like R$150-170 (U$45). just that would be enough to justify, however, there´s more: For comparison, the minimum salary here today is less than U$200 and more than 80% of the population lives with it. One can have lunch in a restaurant for like U$5-10 (a cheap one), so a carabiner is more expensive than a meal.
So I guess these chinese carabiners play some social role of inclusion of people who would never have access to climbing gear due to many issues that don´t belong to this discussion right now.
I hope I brought a different point of view to the discussion, and just to clarify, I´m not defending the crap unrated biners, just the CE UIAA ones.
And by the way, the CE certification is a label that the product fits European minimum standards of environmental friendly production, safety for the customer and quality that allows products to be sold in European Comunity. CE is french for Conformitê European. For carabiners CE follows EN12275 wich is the document with the guidelines (rules) carabiners must follow). And, guess what, UIAA is the main organization behind those guidelines, despite UIAA standards are more strict. For example CE demands that a rope holds a number (I´ll guess 6) UIAA falls, while UIAA label guarantees 9 UIAA falls for that same specific kind of rope.
Congrats for the channel, keep up the good work!
Yeah. It's the same in mexico. The Chinese Brand is like 1/5 or 1/4 of the price of the main brands. For those same reasons currency exchange rate play against us plus the importing taxes. Those two things alone makes de things in mexico 1.5 or 2 times as expensive than if I buy them in USA but then there is the issue of getting de good delivered
it makes sense
Also - I had a career in assessing machinery and other types of stuff against the applicable standards - most people never ever read the standard.
CE standards usually have an appendix of declarations that describe the scenarios that fall outside of the standard. An item can rightly meet the CE or EN even if it has non conformities.
You can call an exception to the standard if you can prove "your way" is even more secure than the standard, and prove it. We do this lots of times
What would a standard black diamond or petzl locking one break at?
I have a question about static load testing and real-world loading of eg descender rigs using screwgate carabiners:
Are you likely to hit the loads demonstrated here (5,000lb+) while literally hanging off such a rig? If not, where are you likely to find these kind of loads off the side of a mountain? And how much more likely are you to break your spine on a rope snatch than these biners?
What's amazing is that the ropes can tolerate so much force, again and again, while the metal breaks.
?? No ropes were under any force again and again in this video??
I'm a bit of an engineer and am comfortable with electronics...but I'm not familiar with the exact things you're talking about...
If you could send me a list of parts you're looking at and a rough idea of how you would like to setup the tower, then I can probably figure out how to hook it all up....and if I don't, then I probably know people that do....
I'd be willing to buy everything on my own dime to test it out at my shop, then I would only ask that you reimburse me for parts when I ship it out to you...
No charge for labor or R&D for you guys!
That coffee table would be awesome. I want to make one with rope off cuts in it.
So wouldn’t this be super good enough for doing some basic rappelling / canyoneering type stuff?
Thankyou for this
I've taken a look at those Xinda carabiners and they have some UIAA certificate, I checked it on a website, the certificate (I believe it was 121 connectors) was active.
Thank you!
yes! Chinese knockoff ftw haha, im still wanting you to test Chinese knockoff ropes.. please!! haha
I checked the slacksnap chart and didn't see any carabineers pulled against the gate and would like to see if the second numbers are accurate for pulling in that direction and how it breaks
If you look on Alibaba half this stuff is made at the same factory and branded with different names, the company names you know don't actually manufacture the products.(sometimes)
That's true, but even if the same company forging components for big name brand (BNB) is selling to the knockoff companies, i trust that BNB is doing the due diligence with testing and proper standards to keep me safe... Because ultimately their livelihood is on the line. These knockoff companies don't give a rip about the industry or the people using the products. If they have a bad batch, they close up shop and start selling something else under a different name.
To add to the existing clarifications about standards, UIAA mark means the product is tested by EN standards, plus some extra things to get the UIAA (as someone already said, sometimes the additional rules are bullshit and it just comes to paying money to get UIAA). This is because the EN standard was based on the early UIAA standards, and now the new UIAA standards are based on those EN standards. To see those few extra requirements which need to be satisfied to get the UIAA mark on top of the EN mark, you can go to the UIAA website www.theuiaa.org/safety-standards/ and check for each part of the equipment.
What I would really want to know is the brand and model of the 2 green carabineers that were used to hold the test carabineers!!!
Did you ever find out?
My local shop sells similar looking ones, they're probably more generic and industrial steel biners. Nice having one as a leaver biner but not nice for much else.
At 9:15 you can read the one on the right and they are Omega Brand and model 18. But I can only find model 16 available online.
@@ronnierowe6764 at 11:55 you can see the gate pop open on one of them
They look to be steel Omega Pacific D biners. Rated for 72Kn.
Blows my mind you don't have more subscribers for the work y'all do.
You gotta love the Safety Patrol 😜
The million dollar question though… what’s the brand/link of the two carabiners you are using to connect the Caribbean or being tested. I want that one.
I have a question. Is there any possibility that you could make a video with doing a stress test on the Freskaro 25kn UIAA certified carabiners that are for sale on amazon?
I want to know what the carabiners were that you were using on each side of the ones you were breaking.
12:58 actually verry good explanation of material fatigue. Fatigue breaking happens when the microfractures grow deep enough to the point where the effective mechanical resistance lowers bellow the force exerted by the cyclic load. The rule of thumb is the higher the load the less cycles are required to break and more cycles for lower loads. Ive seen fatigue breaking happening after milions of cycles for some cases of low ciclic load
I live in a country where its reaaaaally hard to get climbing gear, and i found those Asol black and orange carabines, i feel Soooooo relieved to see they break at 38Kn!
Where are you? I could send you some videos and descriptions of the old ways before half of this stuff was invented? Let me know :)
@Max Gurth i do climbing, so i need carabiners much more than anchors, but thanks for the tip!
As a climber, I understand your wallets pain.... Donated $20 to keep it goin! Great job guys!
Thanks! It helps. If I get enough $ I plan on putting it into a drop tower... that I will fit in :)
Checked the info in the description, and there's one thing that you might find that wasn't covered: ANSI. It's basically the same as EN but the standards are made in the US. Many EN standards have ANSI equivalents or near equivalents with differences usually being within what gets edited between editions (eg. you have an EN standard published in 2004 and republished in 2014 with minor edits; the ANSI equivalent published in 2008 will probably have some midpoint in the edit or go one way)
As I read the two main Standarts for biners are UIAA 121 and EN12275.
The EN defines mainly how biners are break testet (major axis, Minor axis and major axis with open Gate) and wich forces they need to withstand.
Major: 20KN
- Oval 18KN
Minor: 7KN
open gate: - basic biner 7KN
- HSM biner 6KN
- oval 5KN
(For normal biners, ovals and HMS)
The EN also says somethings about gate openig (can a gate open, if there is a 15 mm bolt or two 11 mm bolts in the biner (via Ferrata 21 mm)).
The UIAA says base is the the EN qualifications as well as a brake test over an edge (only for via Ferrata) and a vage Notification that the cross section of biners should not be to small.
I do not guarantee for correctness of the Information.
I know you just did this but can you cross load test some of these? Would be interesting to see.
I bought the first ones you tested, they’ve been great. Now i feel even safer knowing they break at 29Kn! Thanks
Exact same feeling. Didnt think it mattered but when I'm 15ft above them climbing in the back of my head I'm hearing does shit pass QA?
Same with me
An update if you're still using these, they were UIAA certified a month after this vid came out it looks like
same here, i got the favofit ones and ayamaya ones.
Hi guys; i love your work, and I've allready learned so much from your Videos!
What i would love to See is a breaktest with an ascension on a rope (like petzl ascension)
What would break First? Rope? The ascension Body? The mechanics oft the ascension?
Keep on doing this great work!
One more point to consider: if there is an issue (for example quality control related) named brand manufacturers will call back the product. The no name brand will go the cheap route to just stick a new no name and color on.
Is temperature a consideration here - do they perform same at below zero centigrade? Also, be interesting to see if they fail should they have a scored surface I.e real world with some fair ware and tear.
So I have a very VERY clearly marked set of these on my harness just for clipping tools and stoppers to my harness I climb only on legitimate certified gear that is certified from the UCIAA what are your thoughts on that?
Knock offs are great for "non-life safety" situations (Hammocks, storing gear, water bottles, etc). I trust all "life safety" equipment to only UIAA certified gear. When an actual life is on the line, I am willing to pay the premium.
Same rule applies for ropes, harnesses and more.
The carabiner at 10:07 has a potentially serious flaw, where sub-optimal loading far away from the spine is likely. It would have been interesting to see its strength in that regime.
Oh my, I'm planning to buy these Chinese carabiners myself to complement my stuff. 😅😅
At 9:20 the test performed causes one of the gold carabiners to unlock and partially open. I've been waiting for one to fail and noticed that.
It's not just about the Aluminium grade used, it's about how it is processed e.g.. the forging & heat treatment process. You can make a carbiner from 7075 that is much weaker than one made from 6061 for example.
Pounds are a measure of force. Newtons are a measure of force. Same thing. One is metric and one is a relic of history that, for some reason, Americans can't stop using.
newtons are a more dynamic load measure. pounds does not account for gravity. at least not without math. Kn does the math for you. It is roughly 100 Kg/m. i Have to fall 35m to generate a 30 kN force. i am not used to the math but it is actually easy.
I bought some Freshkaro carbiners which look identical to the Favofit ones you tested. It's good to know they exceed their ratings. Thanks for testing these.
First, let me say thank you for doing this. I have a three pack of one of these for keeping me safe when I get up on my roof.
I offer a few things for your consideration. There are probably millions of different situations around this world why a person might choose a cheaper version of an item whose patent is expired and therfore can be copied by anybody.
Secondly let's not kid ourselves about these big reputable companies only manufacturing in their country. Most use third world countries and China to do most of their manufacturing. Petzl state they have a manufacturing plant in Malaysia. (cheaper labor, yet charge as much for their equipment).
Many comments have already stated what might be the difference that is most important. Quality Control .QC in a communist country may not be as stringent or easily inspectable by the parent company as access unannounced is unlikely.
By demonstrating the products here you are by default sponsoring or supporting them. Can we be honest about the amount of innovation is really going into a carabiner these days. I only found one patent current, and the design has not changed significantly since the early 80's save the locking mechanism. I only researched for about three minutes before writing this though.
So don't be afraid to make a statement about weather the product is good or not. I assume you are using similar standards for testing or evaluating these certifications.
If I was on a budget, I might use these for climbing and I always belive in a standard that 2 is 1 and 1 is none. In addition to check, recheck and check again.
Thanks for your video.
Trust but verify, that should be your motto.
Are these heat treated differently? Do they break at different points than their name brand counter parts?
Oh sweet, the ayamayas performed well
IIRC Black Diamond carabiners are made in Taiwan as of earlier this year. Black Diamond is also halting all remaining US production through the end of this year.
The issue has to be about quality control on these unbranded ones. The good ones, sure, they test well, but how often do they make ones that have inherent faults? Do they have the rigourous inspection that (I assume!) the brands have? I would think not, as they do not have the same potential for reputational damage if a device is found to have failed prematurely.
CE certification can be a test a manufacturer can do themselves, but it depends on what type of product it is. Climbing gear that is classified as Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) class II and III (stuff that keeps you alive, like carabiners, slings, harnesses, cams, ropes, etc.) must be checked by a "notified body", which is an external company that verifies that the product does indeed live up to all the requirements before they're allowed to put a CE on the product, and there has to be a four digit code next to the CE stamp on the product that identifies the notifying body.
Other things, like for example PPE class I products, is stuff that is meant to protect you from very minor risks, things like gloves for example. These things still have a specification of what they need to be able to do in certain situations, but don't need to be verified by a notified body, so the manufacturer can do it themselves and then slap a CE stamp on them.
You may test carabiners at 15C room temp, -15C cold and 40C hot to observe the differences in results. Aluminum carabiners tend to break more easily due to differences in temperature as zinc is the primary element for the 7075 alloy.
sick-like-loads dude! loved the snnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnAPPPP!
so how do you feel about oakley being open and saying they don't want to pay ansi a dollar or more per pair to tell them they make some of the best glasses when they self test and know there product
Do you have tests on DMM, CMC and other US made connectors?
Can you do the same but for other things like the Xinda harness and cheap ropes?
Great videos. I liked it, subscribed it and commented it.
So basically everything was super good enough
It would be cool to see if the other two ratings are met... That would give a comprehensive perspective on safety of those biners.
So, I agree with your point that we should support companies that are innovating and not support companies that are just knocking off products from other brands.
However, I'm not convinced BD is the best example of an innovator., at least not in recent years. Their offset nuts and brass offsets are pretty much direct knockoffs of DMM's. BD does have some innovations of their own (the cloth thumb loops on the Ultralight C4s and the collars on the X4s/Z4s, for example) but they're also guilty of knocking off other companies.
There are lots of innovations happening with carabiners: I'm old enough to remember a time before I-beam construction where carabiners all weighed more. There are also a bunch of different ways to make wiregate carabiners snag-free so you don't have to carry the weight of a keylock gate: the hooded nose on WC Heliums or DMM Chimeras, the little wire nose cover on BD Hoodwires, or the little bulb on the CAMP Dyons that allows them to keylock a wire. For lockers there's the Edelrid Pure Slider's novel locking mechanism. Edelrid also has the bulletproof steel insert concept.
But it's also worth noting that the Positron isn't one of those. A this point, none of the Positron's features are really innovative, and I'm not even sure the Positron came out before the Petzl Spirit Screwgate which has all the same features, but is 11g lighter.
All that's to say, I'm definitely annoyed by knockoffs, but I'm not sure that any company is innocent of this, and I'm also not sure that knocking off the Positron is really harming innovation. I'd be much more bummed if someone knocked off that new dynamometer you're making.
I hear the Totem patent is expiring soon and I fully expect all these innovative companies to copy the clearly-superior loading mechanism. :)
CEN and UL are companies that test to or write product standards. They are different in that they have different jurisdictions, or requirements in their standards. CEN/CE/EN/IEC are all related to the European market wheras UL/IEEE/ANSI are for the US/NA market. Their standards are typically so similar that to have CE/UL is enough to confidently apply to the other market.
I don't like that they don't innovate, but I do like that they provide competition so they have to keep innovating, and keep it affordable.
What are the big trusted brands for carabiner? You briefly called out a specific carabiner you love. What was that one? Black Diamond blank ope saw how old the video is.
Welp, knock-offs, be as they may, they appear to be scoring higher results than their rated labeling compared to your new/old black diamond video i watched, not to mention theyre damn consistent.
Love these videos. Brilliant.
Ive literally just been asking myself if i would purchase off-brand cheaper as i scathed deals on ebay and amazon for carabiners.
I appreciate your POV on supporting established innovative brands.
I was really surprised, though, to see in the other video the black diamonds that didnt even score at what they were rated. And the one that even broke at 18kn.
As far as my life goes, i would pay MORE to have an actually higher rated device than what it even claims to be in its label, but if i can get that device, AND have greater peace of mind for EVEN CHEAPER...
Competition sucks. Whats up with the patents out there?
Seriously, i have to say though, props for copying a product and then actually fabricating it better. Lol. Lets be honest, thats not what any of us were expecting nor want to admit! Lol.
The chinese have been doing this for the last decade or so.
Everything (and i mean anything) used to be crap but they upped their game, hard, and the quality of chinese fabrication has increased tremendously over the last decade-ish.
Ps, i recently watched a show on hulu about satellite images around the world.
Quick story:
In one episode someone noted an image taken above China of a military factory. On its premises set what appeared to be an F-117 Stealth Bomber.
What?!
How???
Did they duplicate it?
Did they steal it???
The US is the only country in the world with the stealth technology capabilities of the F-117. If China copied it, then...duh, that really sucks.
Well, out of some 60 planes that were produced and all the succesful bombings they executed it turns out ONLY 1 Was shot down.
Haha. Yep, the front cockpit portion was retrieved but the hind 3/4 of body was not found.
Sure 'nuff, in the satellite image, you can see the plane is missing its front nose.
China ended up with the Bomber! Finders Keeeperz. 😈👿😈
Well, within the subsequent decade of that bomber being shot down China released its first fighter plane, and thats right, it was the first Chinese STEALTH fighter!
Haha.
Moral of the story, if China is going to knock off technology from a $111.2 Million dollar stealth aircraft....mmmyeh, they, apparently, could give two sh**s about knocking off a $20-$35 carabiner 😂🤣🤭
I got 3 Bigwall carabiners awhile ago, did some investigation. I can't remember the exact details but basically it's only the certificate that expired either because they didn't pay something but nothing to do with the Carabiner itself. Amazon actually sent me those by mistake and then they gave me them for free. I also have a big wall large Rescue 8 that is quite decent. Fusion climb from United States makes a lot of Steel carabiners Etc. I bought some 50 kilonewton carabiners from them made from Steel and a whole bunch of other stuff like large pulleys, half body harness Etc
You referenced cyclic loading on aluminum carabiners. Did you do a video on that at some point? I tried going through your back log but no luck.
I'm trying to cyclic load carabiners but don't know where to get this testing done
This tested Xinda Carabiner is the model: XDQ9628. This model is certified by UIAA.
Gracias por compartir!
Saludos!
(Brazil)