When Your Carabiner Fails...
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- Опубликовано: 23 авг 2023
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Thanks for the collab Tucker. I’m dropping my video after reading more of the comments and what we can address in my edit.
Awesome seeing you two work together.
I do think crossloading info is useful because you just never know when something is going to go wrong and a strap gets folded over. More data (in this case) is never a bad thing.
Hopefully whoever is making the gear with fake ratings will get caught or just start to put lives ahead of pennys per sale profit. Unbelievable (but definitely believable).
For some more context. In the paragliding (no motor) world. It's not uncommon to pull 3-4gs in a spiral. On the riser carabiners.
Additionally reserve chutes are often attached with quick links usually 2 6mm with a dyneema bridal to a single 8mm quick link to the reserve chute. (Some companies advocate for taped soft shackles) When deploying a reserve it is likely pretty close to a full weight fall as the chute opens and slows your decent.
Thanks again for doing this I'm going to fully reassemble my harness through the carabiners to make sure they aren't cross loading because of this video!!! Love all the how not 2 ❤️
Thanks for the collaboration
Great collab you two
If he ever sees those forces on his equipment, that wing has long since destroyed itself and the pilot is already unconscious from G forces, it's pretty much the only way this is possible minus shock loading into a tree, but umm.. that isn't going to matter much.
Tuck , you will go down as a guide to safe paramotoring.....your experience in this field is priceless .. and so great you have a voice to share with us..
Thanks, man..
That goes about half way to explaining, why "soft links" are so surprisingly strong! - Because they essentially don't have a "Gate"! - The other half is how insanely tough Kevlar and Dyneema REALLY are!
Would really liked seeing PG type softlinks tested (with the fabric tabs instead of dogbones or button knots), as I'm wondering how the smaller bending radius affects their strenght.
Edit: Ryan already tested them: ruclips.net/video/8fqwTPnp9jM/видео.htmlsi=M1SXkJQymHjbpI00
I don't think anyone will put 3,000+ pounds of force on a carabiner while flying, but they should be marked accurately.
You'll be surprised how much force is exerted during torque, acceleration or sudden change of direction - like if you fell from height and had to have a solid rope catch you. I know I was :P
Austrialpin is a company from Austria 🇦🇹, express it like Austri-Alpine! ;)
Best wishes from Salzburg!
Safety tests should be done in the least favorable conditions, since accidents seldom happen in favorable conditions. So testing the carabiners diagonally is useful, and would be the result I would use.
What did we learn today? We learned that you need to have the correct size risers for your carabiner, or you lose 50% of the strength!!!! Thanks for the awesome and insightful collab!
Even 50% is so much force that you will never reach
I do mechanical engineering. Aluminum is more prone to vibration fatigue issues because it is softer and tends to have more flex for the same size and forces applied. It is nice in aircraft applications where REALLY light weight over a many ton airplane is needed, but can require x-ray and other inspections frequently to check for cracking. Steel has 3x the Young's modulus (an important factor when considering vibration), is more dense than aluminum, and generally stronger given the same dimensional size. I would opt for steel for paramotoring since the weight savings is negligible. Plus, the peace of mind knowing I've limited overall fatigue failures and increased overall strength (assuming you get the right rated and type of carabiner), make it a no brainer for this application. On a side note, an analysis of the failure points in the frames of trikes (likely the welds, but where) would be nerdily interesting to note. I'm not sure this is catalogued or tracked anywhere.
Precisely! Being able to see distortion, PRIOR to failure, is also a benefit of steel. I save weight where I can, but an ounce or two savings on caribiners, aint my forte'. Hell, I decided to ride a heavy AF dudek comfort too. I can get stronger, but seat comfort remains, regardless.
I provided 3 sets of these carribeaners to Ryan, and what prompted me to send them was when I took off with a stainless steel Air Extreme carribeaner and did a few maneuvers, it bent enough to no longer be able to latch. So an open Stainless carribeaner performed significantly less than any of the aluminum.
That is interesting. Did it bend or fail? I guess there must be a point where it bends that you can consider it a failure. Whereas an aluminum carabiner won’t bend, it will just fail.
It bent just enough to not lock by hand again. It was the "Stainless Steel Air Extreme's" which are some of them most expensive making me think the safest. But turns out, the forged aluminum looks to be much safer, locked or unlocked.
This is one of those things that probably get overlooked, but needs a lot of attention. Any company that would put out a claim on their product, and it not meet their claim, should be looked into thoroughly. As for Aliexpress selling a carabiner that has blatantly been mislabeled should be brought to the attention to the public, and those who can take such items off the market.
This is crucial information, and I think those of us who are even considering paramotoring, need to know this. You always point out the good and bad on important topics. Thanks so much for this video!❤❤
Fantastic! We asked for the collab and we got it :)
Great video Tucker & Ryan. I watch both channels. I'm a paraglider pilot of over 10 years. I have been told that the low force oscillations on the carabineer seen during normal flight are also damaging. During flight the slack in the gate is loaded & unloaded thousands of times by a small amount which causes fatigue over a period of time, and that's one of the reasons for the limited service life. It's like bending a Paperclip over and over. Chips & scratches are also potential weak spots where cracks can start. This is in addition to everything else you said. I'm pretty sure there are bhpa advisories about this in the UK. I replace mine every couple of years to be on the safe side.
Seems like a redesign with a second support system might be worth investigating. I am just a spectator.
Just to bring it full circle, how do we compare these values to typical paramotor flight? Is it correct to say that 20 kilinewtons = 4,400 lbs of force? How much force does an average paramotor pull during a wing over or barrel roll? Or how much does a tandem unit with 2 passengers pull during a routine flight?
Considering most people would pass out below 5 G (Paramotor wings are certified to 5.5 G or above), and considering an average solo paramotor takeoff weight of 125kg. You wouldnt even touch 7KN total before you are passed way out, and if your carabiners are 18KN each, you'd have around 29KN to spare... So yeah, just make sure your carabiners dont have any cracks and go fly!
Great question
To compare for the worst case, just look at the absolute maximum force the wing can generate, and it is probably a LOT, mid to high single digit gs, as an ignorant guess. For your case, you can look at the max g of your flight envelope, multiply that by your (and your rigs) weight, and convert from Newtons force to lbs force (your factor is correct), if you work in so called "English" units. You can probably find measured g parameters online for different aerobatic maneuvers, or just take your phone with you, try to find some app that measures avg and max g during a flight, and fly those maneuvers, IF YOU ARE QUALIFIED.
There are also rules of thumb, like the minimum g you can pull in a round loop is 2g (including the normal "Earth sucks" one), at the bottom, IIRC...just physics. I don't know, but I expect a circular loop is impossible with a soft wing. You can probably reduce that max g with something as draggy as a paramotor configuration, and the fact that you can only produce some minimum POSITIVE lift (you can't fly upside down for much time at all, I'm figuring, but just in transition where you can hold enough positive g to keep the wing inflated and where it needs to be) with the, probably required, teardrop shape and a gentle recovery to level flight.
Average paramotor and average force is NOT what you want for design criteria, however, if you are choosing a carbiner. You likely know this, but what you want, as a design engineer, is the MAXIMUM loading, from the maximum weight (including some big bodied/small brained pair of idiots on heavy trike totally ignoring the stated limits and overloading the crap out of it, where climb out is truly marginal), but actually just the max lift capability of the top lift force paramotor wing will get you there, for a PRESENT wing, that parameter will assuredly change in the future. You also add in a factor of safety in loading, to accommodate max life cycling degradation (metal always has it), etc. The real answer is you calculate all that crap, look at the recommended max loading for the carabiner, from the manufacturer, and make sure it meets or exceeds all of that gobbledygook added together.
More than you asked, but my momentum got the best of me...usually does. Hope that drivel helps. :-)
Thanks for the info, Tucker! Always appreciate your videos.
Hey buddy, I just started training yesterday! I just wanted to say thanks for inspiring me. I've been watching your videos for 5 years now and finally decided to take the leap. Thanks bro for what you do for the sport.
Excellent video, Tucker! Put the money where these companies' mouths are! Fascinating!
It would be cool if you could put a device on the paramoter, in line with the carabiner to measure the actual force exerted while flying at various connection points.
Part of the fatigue factor is vibration and even scratches pinches weather and extreme temperatures will affect material strengths.
There is an optimal condition for every type of test. These optimal conditions may only be duplicated in a testing lab and impossible to achieve in a natural environment.
Engineered testing ratings are granted on failure moments not on testing or condition methods.
There are several environmental conditions and loading conditions i.e.: gradual loading and shock loading which will alter test results so; it's critical to know exactly how a test was conducted.
Great video man! It’s nice knowing what they can handle and seeing them actually break
I'm so glad somebody has done a video on this! When I fly I always wondered how strong they are!
Really interesting and practical video. I always learn something beneficial from this channel. Thank you!
Great content Tucker. These are my favorite types of videos, gear reviews, science, engineering.
Don't forget to take into account that our karabiners are used for many years. In that time they are bend an enormous amount of times opposite of the locking gate. This happens due to the necessary slack in the gate-lock. The less slack the less the change is for fatigue cracks. But zero slack just don't exist. Therefore Austrialpine advices to change your carabiners at least every 5 years. Another danger is pitting and crevice corrosion of both aluminium AND stainless steel. Salts and chlorines are a important factor in this kind of corrosion.
Tucker, another very informative video. I feel you did very well with your tests, providing empirical evidence which people can use to evaluate their choices. Well done Mate. your still fly high in my mind.
Really great video Tucker, I think I may start showing this when I teach water rescue. We go over the importance of rescue rated vs cheap ones. Of course, good info for when I am in the air too!
Awesome collab, and good info. Ryan is a G.
I liked your first round of tests. Diagonal happens, and best-case testing produces marketing numbers. Wear happens as well. With that, thank you for pointing out the method of initial failure. There's a design problem with all but one of them based on your more "real-world" test. Add the slightest wear, and those are down to, basically, open strength. I appreciate your working on this!
Thanks ,well done..it's an eye opener
I'm so glad to see this collab with HowNOT2
Thank you Tucker for another informative video
This is good stuff, I've been watching Ryan for years and he does really good work for the climbing and slacklining communities. Really glad you two were able to colab for the good of the paramotoring community as well!
Tucker, this a need that you could fill in the paramotor world and would make us seasoned guys watch more of your videos. Get more gear testing to failure like swing arm bolts, nexts, hoops, tanks. Etc. This video is great.
Good man for doing this. Brings awareness to everyone.
I have taken off, a few times earlier in my career, and discovered that my carabiner is perpendicular/sideways to the correct orientation, with the riser loop and the frame loop webbing bearing on the gate itself. This results in a quick landing and summarily shaking my head at myself. I'd love to see some failure testing in that direction!
👍 Tucker your a Treasure. Keep up the great work
Well done Tucker. Thank you.
Good information. From a physics standpoint, the straps spreads the load over a wider area versus ropes. If you wrap the ropes, you have to consider the how's of that and how they are presented to the restriction, in this case the carabiner. Additionally, this would bring awareness of the strength between the ropes and straps. However, ropes and straps are stronger than that of the carabiners so that is not the point here. In summary, you got to the correct point of the slipping of the rope to specific part of carabiner, which is good, thanks for the video and keep them coming.
Awesome one Tucker! Learned a lot on this!
Wow!
Awesome video as always.
Thank you so much.
Blessing's
What an excellent video - really useful information - well done
Tucker, I am an Old Fart but I have been with you from the Beginning of your First Paramotor-Flight video--keep up the Honesty and Great Work...
Thanks for these reviews.
Very educational about carabiner’s thank you for the informational video
I've been waiting for this video!
Very helpful, thank you
Thank you old buddy I have known many years. Now some good info and Specs... I use to rock climb with gear in the Rocky Mountains when I was in the military back then; late 1980's
Tucker may be saving some lives with this video. Good job man!!
Good show Tucker!
Perfect collab!
Great video. Aside from making sure you get cabiners made for actual loads (I have some that are literally just for hanging stuff from belt loops or tool bags), making sure they are the right shape. The rectangular ones wouldn't be good for mountaineering for instance. I doubt ones made for that would be very good for paramotor use.
In 2002 at Heron lake Challenge in Napa Ca. I was in 5th grade, and was the victim of a Carabiner breaking. I fell 30 ft. and still have horrible worsening hip and back condition.
It’s always fun watching you soar, I tried a PMotor coarse and hurt my knee in class, I need to get back at it and get my rating.
Not sure if this adds anything. In rope climbing school, they emphasized the importance of using carabiners for their intended purpose. It is crucial to match the appropriate carabiner with the type of rope being used. A poorly aligned side pull on the rope can compromise the intended force angulation, rendering it ineffective. It is always essential to ensure that the carabiner is correctly positioned to provide the intended resistance. But when has a Carabiner ever snapped on ya, kinda scary to think about.
I use the sup air steel carabiners for paragliding. This video makes me really confident on the quality of my carabiners 😊
I once crossed Iquique (paragliding city) with this carabiners a bit opened and was shiting myself. I immediately went for landing.
Hi Tucker this was a very interesting video for me as I'm an avid climber and love how not to videos I've always been interested in paragliding and paramotors but never known how to get involved until I found yourself and fly with Greg on RUclips I think it would be another very interesting vid idea for you and how not to to test what sort of forces you can actually generate through your flying gear in normal flight aswell as in extreme manoeuvres and weather conditions I'm sure like the climbing community there's some gear frear and misinterpreted information in the flying community and if nothing else it would be interesting to see and I'm sure a day or two flying with Justin would be entertaining enough
This is the collab ive been waiting for ever since i first saw those sketchy carabiners. Been a fan of hownot2 for a couple years and i knew those were sketchy AF even before you said anything because of all the testing hes done.
Whoa!! Thanks for the great video Tucker!
I apparently need to replace my poor performing stainless Air Extreme carabiners.
Great collab!
Hi Tucker, you know how you were saying about the carabiners tested with rope all ended up twisting due to the not being wide enough? If you look at your thumbnail, hopefully you'll notice that the webbing isn't the full width of the carabiner, and you already have some of that "diagonal loading" going on! You might be able to use some rubber spacers to keep the webbing in the centre or some equipment changes might be needed...... depends on how worried you are really
Thanks Tuck-dawg!
This is the collaboration I've been waiting for. I can't believe the 'repainted' labels on those. Yikes!
Excelent!!! thanks
Do you think the Blackhawk carabiner is the same manufacturer as the parajet one? Both just rebranded. They look very similar.
I'd love to see how titanium carabiners hold up, compared to the steel and aluminum ones. Thanks for the video.
You made my Nightmare come true! Thanks Tucker, this video will haunt me forever.
and for my next trick... open carabiner. weeeeh! Enjoyed the video thanks once again.
I agree with your oval/rectangular loading theory, at least on first glance. It's basically a two force body problem, to a close enough degree. The ultimate weakest part of any of those carabiners is obviously going to be the gate that allows entry and exit for the lines/straps connected to it. And the geometry off, and in the carabiner is going to matter, if not one that maintains the ropes\straps at a constant single location. If you look at the ones made to act as as links in a lifting chains, they have an actual nut that slides on the one end and threads on the other. I would guess that these will hold more than a pin and hook arrangement, but would have to analyze to make sure.
They probably aren't applicable to a paramotor use for a couple of reasons, though. One thing I was happy to see is that the carabiner can maintain near failure loading for quite a while before catastrophically failing, by design, I am sure. This has to do with metallurgy, materials, hardening, tempering, etc., and is precisely the right answer. This allows you to see very easily that the carabiner has been over stressed (if you even can in your application, as the straps might fail long before the connector). I think that loaded properly this would less likely be the case, though, just because of the shape and strap geometry. Hey, a whole NEW 'lets break something' segment (c'mon, you know you had fun doing that). That and blowing things up is always fun, at least for a while, until it hits the 'this is a job' phase, or worse, the 'I'm sick to death of this job' phase.
One reason for that might be experiencing more significant vibration, nothing like those exhaust bolts you previously so 'enjoyed', but still more than a lot of other applications, probably not an issue, but just a thought. Man that rig was a dangerous piece of crap. Probably even more dangerous than strapping the propulsion end of it on your back and mounting a bicycle that was designed for 30 mph tops, and then almost doubling that, which was probably more fun to watch than do..or maybe not. :-) Less sporty to watch, anyway.
If those are Chinese, and not independently tested in the US, they most likely ARE making those ratings up. And if they fail on you, you have absolutely no recourse. In China NOTHING is private, you don't even own your apartment when you hand someone 3 million dollars equivalent for it...just a 99 year lease, and almost certainly non transferable. That's why all that crap about the spy balloon being commercial, which the idiotic mass media had a hayday making fun off, was actually true. It's just that EVERY commercial company is also a military company, if at any point they are required to be, meaning turning over research, providing manufacturing for, etc.
The Chinese are bastards, actually, meaning how they are forced to operate under their govt. They OPENLY TEACH hate, including govt programs to teach kindergartners to crawl under netting, knives in their teeth, shoot automatic weapons, jump on grenades, scream hate against every race not Han Chinese, etc. If you don't believe me, just ask and I will give you a link to a video of them doing exactly that, and more. It is beyond disgusting, and MUCH, much worse than Russia. And it is govt mandated, controlled, and not isolated. Not the entire population, to that degree, but a lot of it. Think the non white Russians they have almost exclusively sent to die in Ukraine, although they are being forced into sending the majority race now, at least to a greater degree. Mean people suck, and maniacal dictators suck worse. Oh, and the races they are committing genocide on as I write this. Man, that got off topic.
Cheers, stay safe but not too safe, and keep the vids coming, always fun and/or interesting.
Loved some of your words here, Mean people suck, that couldn't be more true
Would be cool to rig into the paramotor system a couple of Line scales between the harness and master carabiner. Of many Kn force is put on the the caribiner during flight.
Great Video
Amazing!
I feel like I would want to use the threaded type that you use on chain.. if you don't need to open it often like in climbing.. but I think with something more permanent I would use the threaded type.. that is a lot to ask of a tiny piece of metal in the clip to hold all that weight.. I'm sure the threaded kind would easily double or triple the strength of those.
PS, years ago on a paraglider I took off in a hurry (I was young!) and was a good 100ft above the ground before I noticed one of my carabiners was open. Fair to say, I turned back to the hill VERY carefully and landed ASAP. New undercrackers needed that day ...
Dang when it started i thought i was watching Project Farms channel. 😂😂 good stuff Tucker, cheers from Ohio.
You are absolutely correct. You cannot test biners made for webbing with rope. And you should not use rope biners for paramotor. They will hold up, but they bunch up your webbing causing stress and potential failure of the webbing.
The fact it took both of you this long to figure out the loading was a problem is perplexing. When I clicked the video I assumed you would use webbing since that's what these carabiners were designed for.
These clips are the things that worry me about taking off the ground, I must find the strongest ones that never break, thank you
Woah that's some serious force, My climbing karabiners were rated to about a ton i think.
I hope your climbing carabineers are rated for more than 10kN 😮. I just googled around and couldn't find anything less than 20kN and I just looked at my climbing stuff and none of mine are rated for less than 20kN
Great video as always.I like technical stuff. I live north of Toronto Ontario. Do you know of any good schools up this way?
Great video. How many kN of force do you think you'll ever put on a carabiner while in flight?
Let's say you and your whole setup weigh 200 kg. 20kN would be 2000 kg so you could pull a 10G maneuver and still be fine, except that you just pulled a shitload of G's.
Also you wouldn't rely on one carabiner alone.
All in all you'll be more than fine with most carbiners in this video. I would also go with a steel carabiner though.
Interestingly, the Aliexpress carabiners look like they did at least as well as the "legit" AirXtreme, if not better! It would have been really interesting to see what the Aliexpress ones got loaded with webbing right along the intended pull line, but I suspect they would have either been at or very close to their rating. Not as sketchy as they looked, it turns out.
I am ignorant on this subject however I would think stainless steel as the materiel would be worth the weight trade off for reliability. I have been thinking about learning how to fly if I get in a position to do so, nice channel.
14 Kilonewton is equal to 3,147 pound force. I am unsure of how much pound force a paramotor rig exerts on a worst case scenario, but that actually seems quite sufficient to me.
You want at least a safety factor of 2 probably more like 5.
Usually PG's are loadtested up to 8G of the max Load, the biggest PPG might have a weightrange up to 450kg (bgd cyclone) which would be almost 1000lb, times 8 thats 8k, divided by 2 thats still 4k. But yes nobody will fly acro with these kind of wings, but having the Biner being the weakest point of failure isn't great.
Edit: Niviuks R-Bus is up to 600kg
But you have two so double that. You'd black out before you could pull enough g's to get anywhere near that loading.
the swing bar Bolt/Pin should be tested as well as the sewn together hangpoint straps and that dudek safety strap that parajet maverick uses.
forgive me, @2:47 I am talking about the pin that holds the safety strap to the swing bar. That entire assembly fixed to an angle close to flight conditions and pulled with your favorite unpronounceable carabiner to failure would be excellent!
Is there a reason to need a fast release use case, could a harder to release connection but stronger connection be considered?
I understand that your comment regarding the tests not being scientific but it looked good to me and I don't know what other measures you could have taken to improve the test - manufacturers tests carried out in "ideal" conditions sometimes don't replicate the actual "in service" conditions - I would love to see comments from the manufactures of the underperforming units
Great collaboration and looking forward to more of the same
Great information, Id recommend putting the kN on your captions so that the video is more informative. Its interesting that all of these latches/gates/teeth/pin are poorly designed. Any mechanical engineer could easily redesign them to meet the target spec.
In tree climbing I've seen some impossibly fast wear on tree savers, I am not surprised that some of these perform like crap. The square carabiners are simply designed for webbing and not to be used with rope, those tests were interesting but not testing comparative to the numbers on the biners.
yoooo! nice to see you collab with hownotto! get up in a tree net!
Very interesting. Do you know what level of force would be applied to these carabiners under a normal flight, compared to their rating?
i think "airxtreme flat aluminium" is "finsterwalder snaplock" carabiner ... also you may want to test others from finsterwalder like "Quickout paragliding carabiner" 40kn
you guys should make one and incorporate a D link or a quicklink threaded design
What is the typical pressure rating from just the weight of a person and the paramotor when you're flying?
I wonder how strong aircraft swaged fittings are.
Transient loads may be how the beener is rated.(?)
It would seem that the full toothed design of the blackhawk at 8:35 would far exceed most other if it has the same toothed design on the other side. Idk maybe someone will make something like it some day.
How many g's do you pull when doing aerobatics? The weight of you and all your gear can't be more than about 2kN, but multiplied by a few g in an extreme maneuver and you are getting close to some of the failure points. Obviously, your weight isn't all on one carabiner, but for redundancy you probably want each carabiner to be able to take your whole weight.
An idea for another video, get your viewers to send in old rigging and test, ive seen lines with a swl of 200kg that you could very easily sily snap with your hands. UV kills them but visually they look ok.
1:17 - that's me!
So what's the recommended KN for a carabiner while Paramotoring? Because 10 KN =2,248 Lb. How many Lb's are on average are expected on the equipment? Or is it just the bigger the KN rating the longer a carabiner is expected to last through the wear and tare? Sorry if sounds like a dumb question. I have real high interest into getting into paramotoring and just want to make sure I have as much info as possible when getting equipment, what to look for and stuff in general..
I notice that hang glider pilots always seem to use 2x carabiners for resilience. Any reason why you couldn't use 2 (per riser) for para-glider/motors? I understand in theory a single carabiner per riser is enough, but why not have two - is there any downside?
Yeah is this possible to put an extra Safety carabiner on to take over the job of the 1st carabiner if they break. Why don't they just use rope ? Seems like the the material is stronger than the carabiner itself, the rope used to test the carabiner, I would feel more safe without the carabiner lol
Tucker do you have any suggestions in schools in Texas please or in San Antonio
Followup video idea.. there's a lot of hearsay regarding the "service life" of aluminum carabiners, with pilots usually swapping them out after an arbitrary amount of time. There's gotta be piles of old aluminum carabiners out there, and I would be extremely interested to see what they fail at compared to new.
How many kN's do you think you're hitting when you do your rolls and other aerobatics? Obviously your carabiners are holding up well! I don't think I'd have the heart to do rolls and such if I flew paramotors.