There will never be another Shadow of the Colossus - Detail Diatribe
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- Опубликовано: 11 май 2024
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We were excited to make this video - The time between figuring out the thesis, making the slides, and recording it was no more than 30 hours, tops.
Countless thanks to the live concert that inspired this video: "Game Over(ture)" performed by Symphony New Hampshire, conducted by Roger Kalia and special guest Austin Wintory. Live music is a joy, and this concert was an all-time delight.
*** This Detail Diatribe was (enthusiastically) recorded in-person on one microphone instead of our usual remote-setup. That means we don't have granular control over volume balancing and can't cut out stray sounds like normal. Please pardon the slight difference in volume quality, and if you didn't notice a difference in volume quality then go forth knowing we appreciate you.
SOURCES & Further Reading:
Videos by Mark Brown of Game Maker's Toolkit: "Ico and Design By Subtraction", "The Last Guardian and the Language of Games", and "How Nintendo Solved Zelda's Open World Problem" - • Ico, and Design by Sub... , • The Last Guardian and ... , • How Nintendo Solved Ze...
Video by Jacob Geller: "The Decade-Long Quest For Shadow of the Colossus’ Last Secret" - • The Decade-Long Quest ...
And once you're done with those lovely videos GO PLAY SHADOW OF THE COLOSSUS DO IT RIGHT NOW
MUSIC:
Shadow of the Colossus OST by Kow Otani: "Prologue", "Commandment", "Sign of the Colossus", "The End of Battles", "The Opened Way", "Counterattack" and "Demise of the Ritual"
Also a brief appearance by "Threshold" from Journey OST by Austin WIntory
Chapters:
0:00:00 - Intro
0:02:10 - Live Music Is Amazing, Go Figure
0:09:00 - What We Like About This Game (it's a lot of things)
0:14:18 - It's Good Music, Brent
0:21:38 - The Tone ZoneTM
0:28:52 - A Forbidden Open World
0:35:40 - THE COLOSSI BRO
0:44:00 - Design By Subtraction
0:48:49 - It's not my fault I lost, I'm playing on a USB steering wheel :(
0:54:29 - Maybe some of these Colossi deserved it...
0:58:52 - These lands sure feel forbidden
1:00:51 - The Twist (Return Of The Thesis)
1:08:01 - Zelda successfully screws with the SotC formula
1:23:44 - The Last Guardian is SotC to the max
1:27:49 - Other Games Inspired By SotC Speedrun AnyPercent
1:34:38 - So... will we ever get another Shadow of the Colossus?
Our content is intended for teenage audiences and up.
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"They've got armor, they've got swords..." *squints* I'm fairly certain that, in fact, neither of them are wearing armor, but they still look rad~
THOU HAS A QUESTION! (No Idea if I used “thou” right but anyway,) Have y’all listened to Epic: The Musical? :)
Dormin is not evil they are a horned pagan deity who actually answered their followers prayers only for those same people to seal them away for their trouble ! and then made their holy land forbidden. they tell you straight up that there will be costs and wander agrees to those costs ! Dormin then keeps their word even though they do not have to (they all ready have wanders body) and brings mono back anyway ! they, even in the middle of a life or death fight still make sure to keep their word ! Dormin is a good egg leave them alone they only look scary they did nothing wrong ! Dormin is not the only god to bring back the dead looking at you lazaris lol. i would gladly fallow Lord Dormin the god who dose what they say if they were real !
PLEASE, grant me a Nyx pin, I beg of you!
@@Seoqix "Thou" means "you", so...
"This feels bad but what am I gonna do? Not play the video game?" Undertale has a game-long thesis on this and it wants to know your location
And Spec Ops: The Line.
You just made me realize something, Undertale demonizes people who do genocide routes as "someone who does evil just because they can". But no, the real reason the player does it is because they are obligated by an unspoken rule within the world of videgames: complete the game. The player feels obligated to complete the game because that's what it bought it for. It's almost like a sociatal standard that nobody notices untill it's pointed out.
Taking this into consideration, the way characters within the Genocide Route tell you that you are an "unfeeling monster who does horrors out of pleasure" is now completely wrong. This so called evil demon (the player) isn't doing this because it wants to, it's doing it because it's obligated by an immaterial force that comes from a combination of the standards in videogame media, a media that was created by a culture of entertainment. The Genoside Route blames the "demon" when it should actually blame the incorporeal Eldritch Horror behind it.
...and I've gone waaaay too deep into dissecting a videogame.
@@05Matz The difference being Undertale gives you ways to play the game without the horrible violence, which makes the _players choice_ the center of the thesis rather than _the existence of the video-game violence itself._ But then again, by creating exclusive content and lore information gated by doing unspeakable things, Undertale can't really _judge you_ for chasing it, (and I ultimately don't think that's the intention) it can only use it to ask questions of you. A lot more ink has been and will be spilled on this conversation and I freaking love it.
I love how both the "good" and the "bad" runs specifically try to make you stop playing. The Sans fight is all about trying to make you ragequit so you never reach the ending that he knows is coming, and when you start up after a True Pacifist ending Flowey has that whole speech that boils down to "Look, if you want to start over, I can't stop you, but right now everyone's _happy._ Do you really want to take that away from them?"
@@100lovenana I'd argue the point of the Genocide route is actually the exact opposite. Are you "obligated" to do the route? Well, not really. You only do it because you want to see what happens. This is also pointed out by Sans in the game directly.
"no matter what, you'll just keep going. not out of any desire for good or evil... but just because you think you can. and because you can... you have to."
The game doesn't think you do Genocide because you're some evil monster, but probably out of completionism. But then it asks you why you keep killing just to satisfy that curiosity. Do you really need to see that ending, just because it's there?
It's also commented on by Flowey's speech similarly. Because Flowey via his ability to SAVE also reset the game repeatedly and tried out different things. So he was nice originally, tried to save and make everyone happy. And then he grew bored with that eventually, and started killing people. Just to see what would happen, just to see if it would be interesting.
I'd say the ultimate argument of the Genocide route is more against completionism and the feeling that you "have" to see everything in a story. That you can just let a story be, and let it end when it does.
Shadow of the Collossus always struck me as a commentary on how, on both an individual and societal level, we do not consider the impact of our choices in our lives and how they might be effecting the greater picture.
I work in manufacturing and the jobs that haunt me the most are 1) the defense contracts that DEFINITELY have been used to kill people with lives, families, friends, and passions I will never meet or know and 2) the wasteful, disposable nonesense that does not need to exist and will just serve to take up space in a landfill.
I took these jobs without thinking of my impact, and they started these companies thinking only of profit. Just wandering aimlessly with the short sighted ultimate goal and absolutely nothing else in mind.
That's just what SOTC evokes in me.
What you said about making choices without concern for their greater impact can also apply to a more internal interpretation, that is, how choices we make in pursuit of a goal can harm ourselves.
Beyond the killing of colossi and the awakening of Dormin, SotC is about self-destructive behavior. As Wander keeps killing colossi he gets possessed by more and more of Dormin's shadow spirit things, which has a visible effect on his appearance until he becomes a sickened shell of himself. But he remains driven even to his own self-destruction by what some might call determination and others might call obsession.
And even though Wander ultimately succeeds in his goal, he completely loses himself in the process and is unable to see the results. Whether it is heroic sacrifice or a tragic downfall is up to the player to interpret.
But what do you do with that information? Do you find a different career? Do you stop playing? In life you can make choices and try to limit the harm you do. In the game, you have no option to leave or do something else. Which, kind of defeats the point of playing.
@@ceruleanwalker1069 Within the safety of fiction, we can let ourselves experience tragedies for the sake of the entertainment they provide.
@@ceruleanwalker1069 In a way, isn't playing further when you don't want to a sunk cost fallacy? Your life will end one day and there is only so much time to accomplish anything before it goes out. Also, if you are enjoying it then you simply have to make peace with yourself in order to continue. The limitation of harm is only a limitation, your very existence will absolutely consume resources and provide harm to some living being, so you never stop harming something. In the context of the game, you aren't potentially committing graver harm within your own planet. You're not going anywhere. You're using electricity but you'd probably use a lot of that on something else anyhow. I think the thing is, there is no one answer. Personally, I'd like more games about making friends but video games mostly focus on violence. Maybe if you're fussed about the fact the games don't give you other options, you could get involved in game development and push for other things. Or don't, if that's not where life should take you. But the game is done. It will never change. You can only accept what it is and put that discouragement towards something else.
@@ceruleanwalker1069 If Shadow of the Colossus let you stop killing the Colossi and abandon Wander's mission, then that would've basically required the game's developers to make two different games with two different stories, which would mean incorporating elements that are not absolutely essential to the core of the experience the developers wanted to create.
This is not an RPG or Choose Your Own Adventure game about deciding Wander's fate; it's a game that was created to tell *one* specific story, and to tell it as elegantly as possible.
Controlling Agro took a bit to get down, the thing that made it makes sense to me was realising: 'I'm not controlling Agro, I am controlling the dude sitting on her, I'm pulling the ranes and spuring her'
I had a similar awakening. Shadow of the Colossus is honestly one of my favorite games to play, despite the clunky mechanics, because after a certain point, the mechanics stopped feeling clunky to me. Once I stopped fighting for control and started going with the flow, I started to understand what Wander's limitations were, and then everything just clicked, and I stopped being pulled out of the game and started becoming even more lost in that desolate wasteland. Just like how the secret with Agro is to point them in a direction and let them fucking go, Wander also needs the player to hurry up and slow down, and get out of the fucking way. I still destroyed my thumb holding the button to charge up my sword thrust though. Lol.
@DaveTpletsch It's one of the only games I know of that sacrifices playability for immersion and does it right. It doesn't feel like you're playing a video game character who's perfect for the situation, it feels like you're playing a guy who got himself in way over his head and is struggling just as much as you to stay afloat.
@@quinnholleman1547 A detail I love about Wander is he stole the sword and you can kinda tell with the way he carries it, where as when he's using a bow he clearly is a lot more confident with it; indicating he probably used it in... whatever he did before he came to the forbidden land.
@@DaveTpletsch Is it a bad time to mention that you can press the attack button to start charging and then press it again to attack?
@@riluna3695 Lol. It IS a little too late to save my thumb. But Oh well.
There's an art piece at my local convention center titled "The Seventeenth Colossus". For people who don't know the source material, it's probably a nice David and Goliath style combat scene. But for everyone else, it's a painting of Wander fighting the Iron Giant.
oh thats RAW as hell. I'd love to see something liek that.
You should take a photo of it and post it online, or at least tell us what the convention center is.
@@kjj26k they should most definitely NOT say where the local convention center is, lest they doxx themselves, which isn't a good thing to do. picture would be cool tho
@@billionai4871doxing yourself is just sharing information willingly? Also I doubt just the nearest convention centre is enough to locate a specific youtube user.
You say Malus is pissed, but when you get close to him on his hand he looks at Wander exactly like I would watching an interesting bug crawling along my hand.
That's exactly what I was thinking! He's just looking at you like "tf Is this thing?" And then you stab his hand. I don't think he has object permanence, since he seems to constantly forget your stabbing him and doesn't try to slap you off his hand.
Something about Shadow of the Colossus that always gets overlooked is how EXCEPTIONALLY accurate to real world the horse animations are. This is, to my knowledge, the only game that has ever had a horse switch leads, which is when a horse is running and you direct it to turn left, they start the turn by leading with the left forefoot, regardless of which forefoot was leading in the run. Same thing when you turn right, the right forefoot takes the first step in the turn regardless of which hoof is dominate. Horses IRL do this to prevent tripping over themselves and breaking their freakishly long and fragile legs. No other game dev team has EVER cared about getting the minutia of character movements down as much as the team that made SotC, They never got Wander's run animation to not look weird, but they aced everything else in a way that no one else ever has, and as far as I can tell, no one else ever will again.
Does RDR2 not do this? Like, they studied horse testicles shrinking in cold weather for that game. If they messed up the basic movements, then I have very concerned questions for the directors prerogative.
@@handgun559 I never played any of the Red Dead's, so I don't know for sure, but reddit says they did get it correct. And if they were studying horse apples for accuracy they'd better have gotten the way horses step right too! Lol.
@@DaveTpletsch that makes sense lol. I didn't know personally, but I knew they went to stupid lengths to study those animals just for that game.
I also felt the same with The Last Guardian. They put a lot of thought and attention into how their animals move and animate, leading to them feel so realistic and alive (to some player's chagrin sadly...)
It really is amazing how much subtle detail becomes apparent if you're paying attention. I can't remember where I saw this, but someone pointed out that Wander is almost certainly from an inland horse archer culture like the Mongols; he swims very poorly, and his movements with the sword are very slow and deliberate, but he's an excellent archer, he has a horse trained to come at his call and be mounted in the middle of a battle without panicking, and he can easily shoot from the gallop which is a skill that takes years to master in real life.
Each colossus dying after it's defeated is affecting in a way that's simple, but it works extremely well. That sad music as this giant falls over and crashes heavily into the ground to me always said, "Hey! Good job! Well done! You beat the colossus! Now something unique and beautiful is gone from the world forever. You monster."
That's the part of the game that stuck with me.
"Now for your reward - _shadow tentacles_ ! Enjoy!"
And in game, Wander never cared. She was worth making the world a little less magical
Red saying "Chill beats to slay Colossi to" was incredibly eye-opening (especially one eye).
I like that we learn why Mono was killed, at least on a large scale: she had a cursed fate. Her killing is what drives Wander into the Forbidden Lands, slaughter the colossi, and unleash Dormin. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy at the outset, if she was alive Wander would never have had reason to resurrect her.
This entire situation could have been avoided, and we don't know what drove those unnamed people to deem Mono cursed and murder her for the crime of being ill-fated.
Is this Detail Diatribe for us or is it Red and Blue processing their grief on this matter? I’m invested either way. ❤💙
Same. I have a lot of processing to do myself.
Hey, uh, I think one of your hearts? Is malfunctioning? It's blue and also in your comment, you might... wanna get that checked.
The detail diatribes are always for Red and/or Blue, we're just lucky enough to be their outlet.
Why not both?
There are and there will be. There's just this consumer entitlement to AUTOMATICALLY get more and for cheaper because "the tech is new" or something, so it has to handily outdo the old, that would never apply to real art like paintings or novels.
What there won't be, is ten Notre Dames glued together floating in space. And even that probably isn't true and there WILL be. It won't even take 80 years to get it done once production starts.
But consumers will sit at home not even considering them, not unionize and keep currency value high, and then complain that games these days cost $70, and not double that like Eartbound adjusted to inflation.
SotC speed runner here!
Something really interesting most people don't fully realize about Malus is that he *doesn't* shoot you. He shoots at your feet, which is why we can run along edges without getting hurt. It's a deterrent, which only kills you if you don't stop.
Realizing that hit me like a truck.
The wildest thing for me was watching my best friend fighting the bird boss. He got to its left wing and stabbed it before it did its barrel roll and he let go... And managed to grab its other wing as it spun around. He then proceeded to once again let go and landed on the end of its tail, killing it in about a minute and a half.
World record for Avion is a little over a minute, with 1.5 minutes being top 10. The 1 minute record literally has this exact strategy so...unless he's a gold class speedrunner I have some doubts here I'll be honest.
@blazerer2424 I'm just counting from when he got on top of the bird, so the timing might be a bit different.
@blazerer2424 It is so incredibly infuriating to me that 1.5 minutes is not 1 minute and 50 seconds. That's entirely irrelevant to this conversation, i just had to get that off my chest.
I went in mostly blind and I definitely got the "I'm the bad guy" vibes by the 5th Colossi (the bird). It's been more than a decade, but I'm pretty sure I broke down crying in a weird mix of joy and loss when I finally killed it.
Blue getting the inspiration to make this video via an actual orchestral concert is the MOST him thing I've seen in a while. The only thing that would make it more him is if the concert hall had a big F**king dome
I went to music grade school in Sweden, and the first thing my absolute boss of a music teacher said on the first choir lesson was (translated though) "guys, magic is real! It's called music, and we don't realise it's magic because we're far too used to music just doing its thing. You've probably heard 'music is magic' before, and probably you groaned because oh how cliché, but seriously, what else just cuts into your emotions like that?" Then she proceeded to play the most heartwrenching music piece I've ever heard on this massive grand piano to prove her point
Tolkien had the right idea then
what was the piece?
@@indirarg3710 Don’t remember all of it, but I think it was from an opera. Maybe something from Ring of the Nibellung, but I could be wrong.
You guys actually turned me on to this game originally, and I'm so glad you did. Your point about needing to navigate via the abstract light of the sword-I love how organic the navigation is. It reminds me of Morrowind in some sense. You're so focused on the map, rather than a mini-map.
First day of composing classes in university reminded me of the first few minutes about the game overture. I remember my professor asking: "What is music about?" and we are all like giving answers like "The different emotions that you can't convey with words" and "sound and how it feels." and he went and was like "You are all wrong. Music is about two things, the experience of time and the experience of space. And that's why they build churches and temples and concert halls like that." And since that day I think i have never listened to music the same way. Because you just gotta experience music with that in mind. It's time and it's space.
I've read that "music is how we decorate time." And that kind of amazingly small but astoundingly pithy aphorism perfectly describes how music is more than emotion or sound. Space matters, of course, but the time part arguably matters so much more.
I wonder if the space and time can still apply emotionally. Beats and rhythms timing out how you will feel as it progresses. Which amps deepening on the actual space and time you occupy of course.
@@Osric24 Oh it absolutely matters in ways that you do not consider. Ever wondered why we "arbritarily" came to the notes we have today? Across multiple cultures? (Most cultures have honestly MORE notes or less notes than the standard western 12 note system) Ever wondered why those ratios like a fifth and so on are so important? Because those ratios and notes interact with space in a very particular way. The best example of it is... when you tune your violin and you are in a very resonant room. You don't have to listen if you hit the note correctly. The moment you hit it, the sound of the note FILLS the room way, makes it way louder than it was when you were like a little bit off.
I never had a problem with Trico in the Last Guardian. I think they did an incredible job and creating something that feels like a animal you are trying to guide. Like real animals, if you treat it like a machine or tool and keep shouting demands randomly at it, they will get confused. When playing the Last Guardian, I always made sure I was clear and concise when giving orders to Trico while most importantly being patient.
I think the only flaw of TLG was its inclusion of a tutorial UI and narration based hint system, both of which *did not* let casual gamers in on the fact that repeated commands, and those made out of Trico’s line of sight, were less likely to work. I didn’t struggle, but many did because the game had these means to inform players, but still wouldn’t tell them of certain systems that they frankly should’ve been aware of.
Not to mention Trico has to SEE where you are pointing to for directions to get him to follow. Like a real animal.
And therein lies the issue: patience is a practiced quality sorely lacking in many gamers.
I loved Trico so much. It did remind me so much of communicating with a real animal. If Trico had reacted perfectly like a machine like it would've in other games, I would never had gotten as attached as I did.
@@grammarmaid Most games made are often catered to what will make their players feel the most satisfied to get them to keep playing. Sadly that usually means things have to be instant gratification or instant reaction times so things dont feel dull, slow and often confusing to players so used to that style of game design.
"Might raise your stamina a little bit in a way that rarely makes or breaks the difference in a boss fight."
Wait, are you telling me you guys didn't climb to the garden?
I was thinking this every time the lizards and stamina meter came up. Thanks for pointing that out.
"There's nothing really to collect"
Me playing with a printout of the coordinates of every lizard in the game so I could reach the garden, in every version of the game: 🙂
I think the earliest time I heard about Shadow of the Colossus was on one of these "video game top 10 countdown" RUclips channels that I watched obsessively as a preteen. One such channel had a list of "Top 10 Final Boss Fights" where the description of the final colossus left me with a huge impression.
"You see a large fortress in the horizon and you wonder, is the final colossus maybe there? and then you notice that the fortress has arms."
"The final colossus, Malus, _is_ the fortress."
Holy shit I remember watching that when I was a kid! I think that channel was the Autarch of Flame. Wonder what he's up to these days....
AUTARCH OF FLAME FAN CLOCKED
I have found my people. Never thought I'd see Autarch mentioned on an OSP video.
The name of the video you're thinking of is "Top Fifteen Greatest Final Battles in Video Games."
@@inquisitorgrand
Right now, he's voicing Caine, a character on "The Amazing Digital Circus.
Wait. THAT’S HIM??? That’s awesome! XD
Another part of shadow of the colossus that stayed in my mind all these years, is that some of them aren't really fighting back. Some of them aren't trying to kill you. A couple are afraid and defending, a couple are enraged BECAUSE of you. And then there are ones who run from you. Ones that show their back or armoured parts, or just throw you away, and they are clearly afraid. These giant, monstrous colossi, are afraid of you. It feels sad and bad.
Almost 2 hours of Red and Blue once again reiterating and reminding us all (studios) "TRY NEW THINGS!!!! YOU MAKE BETTER THINGS BY TRYING NEW IDEAS!!!!!"
and I thank them for it.
Also Red I want that other rant that ya stopped yourself from detouring to.
Trying new things doesn't have a predictable costs-to-monetization rubric, beep boop, producing yet another grey-paste modern military shooter and iterative sportsball installment
Slapping a fresh coat of paint on old things sometimes becomes slapping a fresh coat of pain on them instead when instead of a simple graphical update you instead get a complete re-imagining. I have moments when I'm playing stuff like FF7 remake where I just wish the old game had these graphics, voiceovers, and kept the original systems.
Is there a word whose definition is nostalgia for what could have been?
@@jamesstewart5706There is! ‘Anemoia’ is a term from the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows which more or less means “Nostalgia for a time which never existed.”
What a colossal detail diatribe. I sure hope it never over shadows the others.
Nice
To answer your question as someone who played thru the original version with no spoilers, it was around the second or third death of the colossi when it started to really sink in this might be bad. After the first one, when the shadows come and get you, I was like oh snap maybe I need to dodge these things, I'll try again next time. Then it starts to dawn on you.. there is no escaping this fate you bring on yourself for killing them. And then as you said, you gotta press on, but it's very Hitchcockian, the bomb is under your chair and you know it. How many of these dark souls can I absorb and what happens when I'm done..
What got me was how Shadow of the Colossus nailed what it feels like to be a human relating to nature. Simultaneously awe-inspiring and frightful, but I also have the ability to harm it, and when I succeed in my goals, it is tragic.
Other games may have parts of this feeling, but the complex tension of desire, fear, joy, and guilt all bundled up is what made this game so compelling.
The most foreshadowed Detail Diatribe of all time!!!
I forgot to count the weeks leading up to this video... I'm so excited for it!
The foreshadow of the colossus
@@exceedcharge1 thank you for this comment
@@exceedcharge1 Amazing 😍
I loved this game so much. Way back when, I played the original on PS2, but never quite got the last colossus. A few years back I picked up the remaster and finally finished it. My opinion was vastly improved by not finishing the game the first time around.
That said, I never really got a sense of betrayal from Dormin. Wander made a deal. He experienced it all. He went through on his commitment, feeling it every step of the way. Dormin ultimately kept his end of the bargain, and the price was what Wander was willing to pay.
Dormin straight-up tells you that dealing with him/her/it/them is a bad idea. Wander knew what he was signing up for (more-or-less), he didn't care so long as it saved his sister/girlfriend/princess
I perceive Dormin as a neutral or at least fair deity in the game's setting. He/she never encouraged Wander to kill the Colossi, only told him how to accomplish his goal. Dormin seems to have been imprisoned by the tribe but the reasons as to why is never explained. For all we know he/she could be the innocent one in this story.
Yeah and I'm also very hesitant to call it (and either of the other two Team Ico-games) a tragedy, because its ending is far more ambiguously bittersweet than it is actively tragic.
To be fair, it does at least initially scan as a betrayal, even if he does come through in the end. When you're playing it for the first time and Wander is mid-transformation and it cuts to his POV of him desperately reaching towards an entirely unchanged Mono, that shit cuts deep. Honestly maybe my favorite gut punch in the game.
Tip for anyone having trouble with Palagia, swim under his armpits and stick close, his huge ass model will actively push you toward his back while he's turning, as for steering them and getting them to preform the arcane act of jumping up on the platform, good fucking luck
Another way to get to Pelagia's head, though it is a bit risky, is to jump and climb Pelagia's face, since it is actually climbable.
So, Wander is basically the embodiment of the "I don't know who I am. I don't know why I'm here. All I know is that I must kill." meme.
I definitely got the impression when playing, that Wander knew exactly what he was getting into before he even crossed the bridge. I'm not sure that's supported by the text -- if I recall correctly, he seems rather surprised about how things start going towards the end -- but that's the vibe I got, anyway. He might not know all the details but he's all in regardless.
Wander the character knows exactly who he is and why he's there.
It's the player who doesn't know anything outside of what they can glean from the opening cutscene.
If you want another character like that, there's Jetstream Sam
“Music DOES sh*t to people!”
Last year I learned how to play the lyre and the first thing I learned was “Leaves from the Vine”.
I still can’t sing while I play it now or I start crying. 😭
Music is so good. It feels like the most… I dunno exactly- pure and primal?- form of creation in many ways. Certainly one of humanity’s oldest, and I find its power and ability to make us feel so strongly so amazing and beautiful.
It feels to me like there’s something so difficult about being made to say the words out loud when you sing that feels like it tricks your brain into empathy.
The way that the music pulls your emotions makes it that much easier.
"The fucking bird!"
>.>
That one's actually my favorite.
This game came out in the olden days of G4 and tech tv. they showed me that you can kill it in one stamina bar if you're good.
I was so hype when i got to pull it off...
I hate that bird.
I love the rush of flying on colossi in this game.
I love the rush of flying on colossi in this game.
The ost in that fight, especially Despair Filled Farewell, are the best songs in the game. Just a greatly coordinated fight.
I’m happy I’m not the only one who gets teary hearing the medley of the games awards when Hades, Doom and Animal Crossing got nominated 😅
Listening to you guys talk about Breath of the Wild vs Shadow of the Colossus, I've come up with an explanation to the difference in the tone. Link in Breath of the Wild is lonely, I think you explained this in another Detail Diatribe, but that world is supposed to have Even More things going on, but it doesn't because of the calamity and all the destruction. Link is just alone and sad. Shadow of the Colossus is Solitude. "Wander" came here on purpose to a place to be alone. This was a known thing, nothing is supposed to be here so there is nothing here. It is a resolute choice of a feeling unlike the imposing vibe you get from Breath of the Wild which was fun to think about.
"if it's a bit we commit" - another banger red quote
"[The Colossi] have this architectural, structural quality to them. Could use more domes, though." 38:48
Shadow of the Colossus is an example of why I believe it's important to appreciate even flawed games. The people who make them put their all into the game with the limitations they had. Despite all the stuff that might bother a newcomer, such as imperfect controls...if you look at the bigger picture, you see the greater beauty of it.
Nowadays, so many publishers are forcing developers to make games just for the sake of it, rather than actually allowing ideas to flourish. But this game, despite its controls being a pain, knew what kind of experience they wanted: an ant running from a boot, in a broken world.
I love these looks at different games! Love to see you guys cover Mario Galaxy, The Last of Us or Mass Effect!
53:44 Don't forget, Red: another way to reach the top of Pelagia's head is instead to wait until it's close enough, then jump and grab Pelagia's face. Pelagia's face is actually a climbable surface in the game. Of course, it is a risky method, as was demonstrated during your livestream.
There are certain narratives that are so complex, layered, and subtle that it requires thousands of people working together to explain them. SotC is one example, Elden RIng is another. In fact I don't think there is any medium, other than video games, that can tell that type of story effectively. And I love them so much.
I think you are giving Fromsoft's adhere to vagueness too much credit, as reading item description to put together the plot isn't what I would call engaging. But on other games it is a unique treat that's fascinating. Reminds me of watching Journey. And Hollow Knight is a favorite game of mine which echoes simillar "vibes".
This does bother me a bit with Fromsoft because they do excel in enviromental storytelling, something I loved about the world and setting of Sekiro and Bloodborne. But this aspect gets overshadowed by people talking about "Souls is deep because its NPCs decide to talk to you in the most roundabout way possible."
@@leithaziz2716 All the aspects make a whole the part of the environmental storytelling is as important as the vague NPC and all of them and more create the layered complex narrative mentioned.
In fact Bluepoint just changed some colors around (among other things) in their DeS remake and as a result fucked up many of these narratives.
I agree with the first reply, Elden Ring is great but it isn't on that level
@@nahuel3433 You're proving what I'm describing without really giving a good rebuttal, but I fear this is the rabbit hole in Souls communities that leads to discussions going in circles all the time. I see this exact type of excuse when someones tries to critiscise certain mechanics in bosses or the open world in ER for example. I'll just have to agree to disagree.
I also see some die-hard Souls fans complain about the Demon Souls remake, but that project is still one of the prettiests games I've ever seen, and people don't give Bluepoint enough credit for the effort they put in it. It's not like you can't dislike what it's changed, but I can't see that as being much beyond nitpicking.
@@leithaziz2716 I'm sorry but the one that came in here with the counter claim without giving a good rebutal was you my friend.
I just added to the conversation because as I said, you didn't make a compelling rebutal ot the original comment, so I just made the perspective wider, why in parts I enjoy these.
So it's kinda strange you are comming at me for "not having proper rebutals"
Anyway, adding cool RTX can make very impressive lighting and such. But that means little if it doesn't enhance the art.
The pretty came at the cost of the substance bellow. It took fans complaining for them to not do the Flamelurker a generic Diablo devil (and we actually have concept art and they DID literally use diablo as reference)
rather than the man looking thing that is having his helmet melt into his face.
And there were many other things, but those weren't immidiately visible in trailers before people paid for the game, so they didn't change them.
The TOTK thing is too real man. I remember when the health bar thing happens during the final boss fight, I said out loud "wtf" like 7 times. Pure panic, amazingly created by the game's atmosphere and immersion.
At 11:35 no, Mono is not implied. In the dream sequence about halfway through the game where Wander is dreaming that Mono has woken up, the camera zooms in on Wander's face & you can clearly hear him say her name...Mono. The name of Lord Emon is also spoken by one of his body guards just before the 16th idol breaks apart. As for the music by Kow Otani, the CD soundtrack has managed to remain in print for 19 years & counting. That pretty much says it all.
OH HEY ! Perfect occasion to tell a little story.
So a while ago, I was going through my third year of graphic design studies, and had some free time. I had only discovered OSP recently, but was already a big fan of the channel and avid consumer of the Overly Sarcastic Podcast, even though it had only just started. In that podcast, the concept of the _Time Heist_ was thrown around, a heist movie starring Red and Blue going on a trip through time and space to build an elite team, Ocean's Eleven style, and save the library of Alexandria. Fun idea, right ? I thought so, so I decided to put what I had learned in my studies into practice, and made a short, silly animated trailer for that hypothetical movie.
It took me three weeks, but making it was one of the best decisions I ever made. Not only because people who saw it were incredibly nice (including Red, Blue and Indigo, I even got a shoutout on the OSPodcast, still not over that one), but it made me want to try animation studies, and apply at a very renowned and selective animation school (ESMA). And having made an animated project in which I invested time and effort was apparently enough, so I got in!
Now I'm in my third year, and we've started working on the animated short films we're gonna make during our fourth and final year. And because there are about 70 students spread into 9 projects, each student had to submit a few scenariis, and they went through several stages of selection by the school commitee until only 9 remained.
And guess whose scenario got selected ? :)
Double guess whose scenario has Shadow of the Colossus as one of its two main influences, alongside Pacific Rim ? :)))
So yeah, buckle up for a post-apocalyptic short film about a family of survivors discovering a still functional giant robot in a mysterious and expansive land covered in mist and ruins of an enigmatic civilization. Coming to you... er... give it a few years, animation takes time.
Anyways long story short, had I not stumbled onto OSP a while ago, I very simply would not be at this extremly high point. So thank you for your amazing videos, and making my life so great!
Omg YOURE The time heist trailer person? I Love that! It’s so cool and animation is my favorite medium! That so cool and I wish you luck!!
Who hopes Red talks about the “Hero letting the Villain Live” trope so she can talk about SU and Avatar The Last Airbender, the “Hero vanquishing the Villain” trope so she can talk about She-Ra Princesses of Power and The Owl House, or the “This Corporation is Greedy and Corrupt but at least they aren’t Violent” trope so she can talk about how media vilifies rebellions
Sounds cool I'm more interested going further with the trope best friend is the child of evil corporate ceo.
SU?
I don’t know where you live, but here in America, rebellion isn’t vilified.
In fact, media around here will justify any kind of horrific violence and torture as long as it can be framed as,
“The scrappy rebels going against the evil empire.”
@@8-bitsarda747Steven Universe
I get torn when ATLA comes up, because nothing makes me want to pay whatever is necessary to force myself as a guest on the podcast like Red talking about Aang-the-pacifist.
Which I both mean as a deep compliment and experience as a torture. If you can make me argue out loud with the
radio/tv/misc one-way media, I'm definitely engaged?
Doesn't change that I lowkey feel she's makes strawmen of the "aang pulling a third option out of his butt is a bs cop-out ending" side of the argument. Not on purpose or maliciously, just because it feels like she's never had someone to talk it out with because everyone she talks to about it agrees with her, so it's easy to reduce it to "it's not realistic that aang ending the war without murder waaaah i like grimdark".
A couple of my favorite memories with this game
1. Fighting the tiger colossus (The one you have to back off the edge with a lit torch). Had lit the torch, had him backed almost to the ledge, everything was going great
Then the torch went out
Cue hell.
2. Fighting the huge bird colossus, perched on one of its wings, stabbing the sigil, low on stamina. Stamina ran out, I got launched intot he air, and somehow managed to grab onto its tail.
Hot damn, a detail diatribe on one of the best games ever, and I caught it a minute after release! Awesome!
Dark Souls is stagnation and decay. SotC is abandonment and emptiness.
Love em both, and also great video so far! ❤
Journey was so good - easily on my top 3 list for the PS3, & Austin absolutely nailed that soundtrack!
I just wish I could go back and play it for the first time again.
Never played Journey, but the art direction is a treat to see snippets of.
Did you play Sky Children of the Light by the same team?
@@bitobytebot5622 No, I somehow completely missed it! There goes my saturday 😄
HELLO I AM READY I love Detail Diatribes so much
I would like to add, part of the reason there will probably never be another SotC is because it was a big game made from the time when big studios attempted completely unproven concepts. It went all out on something that felt completely original at the time. Giant monster puzzle boxes fights in a basically empty world with no depth to the storytelling.
These days big studios either make games of already proven genres or remake their own games as sequels/remasters. For truly exciting and creative games we have to look to indie studios now, and pray that they blow up enough to influence the industry. Then a larger studio will follow it up.
The other thing I want to mention is that I think even the Scarabs from Halo 3 draw some inspiration from SotC. The true influence of this game is so much bigger than we can directly see. Super special game and an amazing video :]
What impeccable timing that I got this video JUST as I was reading about a new update for Praey for the Gods, which came the closest to being another Shadow of the Colossus.
Truly, the universe works in mysterious ways…
I attended a college-level wind ensemble performance of a selection of video game music last year. The band director invited up their special guest, Austin Wintory... and the man sitting directly across the aisle one row in front of me stood up.
So that was neat.
(He commented that it was the first live concert he'd been involved with where a suite from _The Banner Saga_ was performed as originally composed rather than through an orchestral arrangement.)
Since you mentioned it..."Praey For The Gods" is a nice spiritual successor that was also made with lots of love by 3 dev's over a period of about 6 years & it was fully crowd-funded. Which means the dev's were able to make the game they wanted to make without interference. The game needs more love as well as a physical release. As for "Shadow Of The Colossus", true there is only one. And maybe if we're really lucky we "might" get a Definitive Edition next year to celebrate the 20th anniversary. Nice review/discussion.
That game came out?
I thought it got obliterated by a cease and desist or something years ago.
I guess I'll have to check that out then.
@@kamikage9420 Quite the opposite. Some of the dev's from Team ICO even gave there blessings to the creators of "Praey For The Gods" & that really encouraged them to keep working on the game until they had a finished product. It's too bad the game was just thrown out there digitally with little to no publicity. It did need a little extra polish but overall was still very playable. Hopefully work has been secretly going on to improve it & a physical release will eventually happen.
33:45: The _Dark Souls_ world is a full cemetary; the _Shadow of the Colossus_ world is an empty zoo. One contained something once alive; the other once contained something alive. Those are very different things.
54:02: Yes there is, it's the last colossus.
SHADOW OF THE COLOSSUS MENTIONED RAAAAAHHHHHG 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥
(More seriously that game is one of my favorites of all time, I’m so glad to see someone talk about the beautiful experience that is this game) ❤️💙
Almost 2 hours of amazing content?! You guys are the Best 🎉🎉🎉🎉
Just started my luch break and a new detail diatribe drops. Perfect timing. You all do amazing work thank for doing what you do :)
I love that the "What's Red Drinking Today?" bit has leaked into the Detail Diatribes from the OSPod.
As someone who never played Windwaker, I am also only able to distinctly remember the Colgera boss theme from Tears of the Kingdom. That piece is the adventurous, heroic spirit distilled in audio form and it hits hard regardless of if you know where the theme originally came from.
The point made that there will never be another first time for this unique and impactful thing immediately reminded me of the greatest twist in gaming history (imo): Bioshock's "would you kindly" twist.
Based on the fact that every colossus has a matching totem in the temple, I think they were sculpted from stone to represent an animal from that World or something, and they either gained their fleshy bits automatically by being given a piece of Dormin's soul (or actual body parts, who knows), or by design as a last line of defense against would be tragic heroes trying to bring their *insert loved one here* back from death.
Thank y'all for using footage from the PS2 version at the end. I played it when it came out, during my senior year of high school. It was already an introspective time in my life, and video games have been a part of it since before I could read. Final Fantasy VII was the first time I realized a game could hurt me, Shadow of the Colossus was a peak that I've never reached since. It was that PS2 version that I played. As beautiful as the PS4 version is, the PS2 version is *my* version.
Red and Blue have a point that there's is very different about hearing music through a device versus experiencing it live and in person. I took my mom to see Wicked as her Christmas present the year before, and it's a show whose soundtrack I've listened to for over 15 years. But when it got to "Defying Gravity" in actual stage show, I got this chill when Elphaba disappeared and we only hear her echoing voice taunting the guards of Oz until it crescendos into "IT'S MEEE!" and she appears mid-air to deliver the song's climax.
> There are a lot of games that have gone through a lot of really wonky solutions to try to get you to move on a surface and make that not explode
*Me literally coding Sonic physics as I'm listening to this*
SOC was foundational for me in terms of how I view stories , games and other creative-interactive media.
It holds such a deep place in my heart.
im 10 years old again listening to this detailed Diatribe.
I played Praey for the Gods, and the one thing that kept me coming back to finish it was that gong noise when you hit the sigils. That gong/bell/whatever-it-was was epicness condensed into a single note.
I know what Red meant by the "nameless protagonist remark" but this is a PS2 game and the manual namedrops Wander.
When making something you shouldn't try to make the "best thing ever" but instead the "best this particular version could possibly be".
10:31 If I remember right even the colossi names are fan-created. Dormin only refers to them via traits and the game files are all descriptors.
Got to work this morning and saw a detailed diatribe clocking 1:45:00 and my first thought was "fuck yeah! Someone's about to cook"
It's a good day
Wander feels like a good outline for a Warlock or a character that has a magical patron depending on the system.
I really appreciate the rants about music in games and in general, I thought I was the only person I knew who cared that much about a game's soundtrack.
I appreciate you not spoiling Tears of the Kingdom. I'm in my "Did most of the game but haven't quite finished it yet" pause phase with that game, and I haven't watched the TotK Diatribe for the same reason. I do need to get to finishing that game.
As a New Hampshire resident, I'm PISSED that I didn't know that concert was happening. I would've loved to have gone.
There will never be a Shadow of the Collosus 2, but there's no way there wont be a worthy spiritual successor someday.
The best part of the games physics jank, is mastering it to catapult yourself exactly where you need to be
One of my favorite memories of this game, is back on the PS2 version.
Homie had a projector, and the game was one of the only ones with wide screen support.
We fought 3 colossi before say, "I need a break, this game is a lot when it's this big."
I still love thay all these video game concert experiences are becoming more popular. Like how amazing is it to get a crowd that probably never thought of classical music to sit down to a live orchestra.
This video healed me in a very unexpected way. I grew up playing piano at a young age, and have played for more than a decade straight, eventually burning out but still being forced to. I still enjoyed music, but whenever I touched a piano it felt painful and strained. This video's early points about how music feels made me play piano again, and finally improv for the first time. Thank you. so much.
So glad I get to hear my two favorite RUclipsrs talk about my favorite game ever 😭
Thank you for this. This game takes me back. There were a lot of really good games on the PS2 that my husband (at that time fiancé) and I enjoyed. How has it been nearly 20 years? I feel so old 😭 We loved Shadow of the Colossus so much.
Glad you brought up Pathless, it was my first thought upon seeing the title. Far from perfect but I do love that game.
I love the designs of the various colossi. Especially the big ones. Weirdly enough, playing through, I accidentally got myself disappointed seeing the final boss wasn't EVEN bigger than he was. He's utterly massive, yes, but for me, climbing the mountain and wondering what I was going to be up against, I was hoping for a literal mountain of a boss. To truly feel like an ant taking on the impossible. Still, 10/10 game. One of my all-time favorites, and a major inspiration for some of my art.
My favourite thing about ico’s, and SotC’s, game design is their impact informed the designs of certain unique experiences moving forward.
I love games (specifically open worlds) that refuse to elaborate directly to you what exactly is going on in the world. Some people may think this is bad game design, but I think it’s genius, and ahead of the curve in today’s gaming landscape.
Like in *BotW* , you’re thrown into this world, and already you see broken structures - and are encouraged to discover what happened to hyrule. NPC in this game are sparse and limited. The idea was to incorporate a more engaging system in a Zelda game that allowed the player to be more involved in the story themselves than prior titles.
In *Dark Souls* , they tell you piss-all about the world, and as you explore further you discover more about why Lordran is the way it is today, and what Gwyn had to do with it.
Just like dark souls and BotW, In *Elden Ring* - they throw you into this random land.. a land that is ambiguously penned ‘The Lands Between’, where you are overwhelmed with the environmental structure and apocalypse of the lands without ever talking to a single NPC. Caelid is a hellish nightmare, but to an astute eye - you’ll understand that Caelid’s environmental storytelling isn’t just for “cool factor”, but Instead it factors into a tragic battle that happened, and you’ll discover what exactly is “scarlet rot”.
In Leyndell, there’s just a random f**king corpse of an ancient dragon, but through environmental storytelling you’ll find that the inhabitants kept this dragon’s corpse in the Capital, after the dragons defeat in a war, as a way to study and understand dragon magic.
All this to say: IT IS NOT BAD GAME DESIGN WHEN THE GAME DOESNT TELL YOU ITS STORY. Often times, an obscure storytelling approach will enhance the user experience more than if the game tells its story when you are least engaged… in a cutscene or NPC expositions.
I forever thank Ueda for inspiring such unique story experiences, even more than a decade after SotC and 2 decades since Ico. Elden Ring being nominated for best Narrative at the Game Awards had people in a frenzy… but to those, like myself, who are giant fans of Ueda and Miyazaki and such, I was happy to see Ueda’s legacy live on in this regard. Criticise these story approaches all you want, but this is what it means to tell TRUE *videogame* stories.
Shadow of the Colossus is my favourite open world game OAT.
Ueda is simply the GOAT!!
All developers need to do is show me an evocative character design, and let me work from there lol
I keep recommending the SotC soundtrack for BBC Radio 3's listener-built playlist. Someday...
The sheer TERROR in Red's voice when she asks "We're dunking on *Dark Souls*?!" As if she can already hear the baying of the Twitter hounds.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who absolutely loves Journey! Each time I play it makes me feel so happy. The art, the music and even the animation! I highly recommend it!
No matter how long these videos are they always fly by, such a fun time listening to you guys
About Elden Ring's open world: It goes *out of its way* to forcefully eject players from the critical path if they slavishly follow it. Margit the Fell Omen is specifically tuned to be above your weight class if you're not a franchise veteran with highly tuned skill in the combat loop,if you never deviated from the critical path the game explicitly illustrates to you to that point. FromSoft are outright demanding you to go out and interact with their open world,because your prize for doing that is power,be it in the form of Runes (And therefore,levels),or equipment,spells,or skills,or materials with which to upgrade your equipment.
I've never played Shadow of the Colossus, but I've listened to the soundtrack many times, stared in awe at screenshots and videos of the Colossi, and thought about the [intentionally limited] story, and pondered about what it all might mean, about the themes of choices and consequences. Thank you for this awesome Detail Diatribe, one of your best yet, for sure. I truly love and enjoy your content, and I'm so glad that you both get to do what you love, and have fun with it, and share it with us. 😄
Shadow of the Colossus is the penultimate example of "games don't need to be perfect to be the best."
The few noteworthy flaws of the game enhance it just as much as they detract from the experience, and ultimately, none of the flaws overshadow the successes of its design.
Imperfections tend to make far greater masterpieces
I just love your detail diatribes, so it is a TREAT to suddenly find one about a game that means so much to me ❤🎉
Video game music that’s designed for a specific *moment* of a game always gets me because you’re right back there
Especially unique boss fight music and especially especially if it has lyrics come into play
“Bon, Voyage / your mermaid’s setting sail / at last / full speed towards your heart”
@OverlySarcasticProductions When this game first came out, a game reviewer said the colossi had sad cow eyes when defeated. Once its noticed, it cannot be unseen.
Legally required to mention the game’s composer did music for both the 90s Gamera trilogy and one of the best Godzilla films
Austin Wintory deserves a great deal of praise - and that's enough for me to post alone
I'm always so excited when I see a new detail diatribe pop up in my sub feed
I'd say one of the only other game that matches Shadow of the Colossus's greatest features is Outer Wilds. It is completely different, save for a few details (you're exploring the remnants of a now gone civilization, your quest is... not what it seems at first), but it has that same resplendescent uncompromizing simplicity in its design. Like Shadow of the Colossus, you can go anywhere in the solar system from the get go, and there is not a single piece of "side" content in the game, because everything you find is another clue to both figuring out the story and acomplishing your... ultimate goal, and the game is just about those two things, to the point where there is no player progression. The only thing that changes over the course of the game is how much stuff you know, and if you know all you need to know, you can make a beeline for the end of the game (well, the game provides a mind map of all the clues you've gathered so far, and indicates the places where you've been but haven't found all of what you need to find for your convenience).
Btw, this is incidentally why I'd argue that this is the piece of media that deserves the most a spoiler embargo-ish. Because you can't replay it if you already know everything, getting spoiled is litterally getting chunks of the experience removed, and save for a dodgy memory, you can never get these back. And you might not know if you preferred to experience these firsthand without
And funnily enough, it has exactly the same two issues as Shadow of the Colossus : one inherent to the uncompromizing simplistic design, meaning the game won't tell you anything, and it's up to you to tug at the various strings of clues you've stumbled upon, and also dodgy controls, especially for the ship (I mean it seemed fine to me, and I was an ace pilot by the end, but I've heard many people complain). But for the former, you couldn't make a game as beautiful, unique and hard-hitting as this one without this aspect.
You should play Outer Wilds :)
(I'd say there's one caveat that you might want to know, but you'll find out about it very soon in the game, and chances are you probably already know, so I'll put it down below).
It's a time loop game, and the loops have a fixed time limit. It's fine, the game is made to work within that time, but I know it's been stressful to some people.
I completely agree! Though Blue should know that his thalassophobia will be triggered a wee bit
I'm so thrilled to hear Red got convinced on live music, it's truly a different experience and gd magical. I have incredibly severe anxiety, but I started going to concerts as a young teen and it's like... The only time I feel completely alive, in the moment, and free from that anxiety. Live music just hits different.
I am READY FOR THIS! WOO! Made my Friday much better.
There's something about dead world's that's so enchanting to the newer generations. I think it's because they feel possible to us.
People crave the things they don’t have. In a world so connected and so modernized being stranded in rolling plains and canyons has a feel most people in this day and age won’t experience
It is something I find fascinating when playing Nier Automata. Signs in the world that people used to live here. Now it's all quiet melancholy.