3MT: James Aspey and His Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Week
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2024
- Three Minute Thursdays // Episode 77 Jan 21, 2021:
So, James Aspey had quite a week, am I right? But why does this matter for all the rest of us in the grassroots animal rights movement? Let's discuss...
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So... what do y'all think?
nice intro :-)
I think you’re on point with it. Using those terms that offend a lot of people aren’t helpful and not using them won’t negatively change to activism. I also used to use those terms and stopped when It was explained how it’s offensive. I don’t want to offend people, but also I don’t want to turn people away from receiving the message.
Also great point about “holding people accountable” is not the best strategy.
I stand by the fact that it is a Holocaust, it is slavery, murder, rape etc.
But if we end up debating the use of words, then we are not debating the actual issue of animal use.
Your argument for not using these words in outreach is very strong.
Beautifully done! It spurred me to finally get around to signing up to your Patreon, probably the only one I ever will as all the money supports the animals and vegan causes.
@@oryctolaguspumpkin // thanks for signing up!
I think I’m going to be the only person in your comment section who respectfully disagrees. I’m Jewish and am an ARA today because of comparisons of this variety, which in my experience are effective long-term. We can’t keep pretending our ability to be offended is more important then our duty to accurately represent animals. My trauma and the trauma of my ancestors is not more important than what animals currently experience at the hands of my species. When you care more about human emotions than animal bodies there is a problem
I appreciate a good respectful disagreement! But what if we aren't "pretending our ability to be offended is more important" or "caring more about human emotions", and rather we are looking at this from a strategic point of view? The idea that regardless of how vegans might feel about these outreach comparisons, they aren't doing much to change the general public at a rate we need them to change? Couldn't then one argue that doing what feels just, like holding people accountable or offending the pubic is actually caring more about human emotions (ie. their own) as opposed to what is actually going to help?
@@thecrankyvegan It's very easy to claim that you know what will actually help when in reality that is not the case. Just because a word is offensive and fails to meet your strategy does not mean that the word is being used incorrectly or that the word should not be used at all. The very people upset by certain words are the very people demanding that the atrocity takes place. Are we catering to those and watering down our activism or are we speaking up for those voices who have been silenced? I don't know the answer, and anyone who claims they know you should look at with healthy skepticism.
@@thecrankyvegan I get the we need them to change argument. But by accepting to not use it it again puts animals suffering in a less important position than humans suffering again and we dont want that. If we just abandon the word its gonna stay in peoples minds too as the remember when those vegans used this word... but we need people to recognise animals suffering, now. No one says that any other suffering isnt terrible. Animals suffer as humans do right. And animals have been and are going through everything that humans have ever been through and are going through still now. Slaughtering, torture, exploitation, extinction, eradication and so on. They are not “just” getting killed for food.
FACTS. AF.
im late to the party but i disagree.
.
im also jewish and also vegan, and i also agree that a holocaust comparison is not offensive. i actually wrote a reddit post arguing that factory farming is much worse than the holocaust last year. but if our goal is to be effective, this is a good way to create backlash. it seems like most people (although clearly not all, you may be an exception) are not persuaded by these kinds of comparisons, but rather they're offended and unwilling to engage. that's the opposite of what we want.
ive found the least grifty, most dedicated vegans, rarely get over like a few thousand subs cuz...
This grind is boring, ugly, and not glamorous at all
I am here to prove you right.
I fully concur!
@@thecrankyvegan I'm here to prove you a little less right. Just subbed!
Exactly. Been vegan for 15 year plus, run a non profit for senior dogs which i currently care for 14 of them in my home. Im a marine biologist and volunteer in many places. Get ZERO donations while this numb nuts is traveling business class and living a vacation life daily. Not to mention, what happened to dogs he supposedly rescued?
Best comment I saw on this whole thing was "you'll never see him shoveling shit in an animal shelter"
His activism is a self-serving scam at best. Maybe sure, it started in the right place, for the animals. But now, it’s just about him, and preying on peoples empathy for personal gain. I mean, I know I can’t afford to travel to Bali during a pandemic. 🤷🏼♀️ awesome video, as always
Are you unaware of inexpensive it is to live in Bali? And how extremely close it is to Australia? Do some research before bringing others down.
@@alainacarrinov32 What's your research on his business class trip to Panama, during a global pandemic...?
@@jimmym5930 with all due respect jimmy, what the hell have you done that would even come close to what JA has done for the animals? And you think that you know the reason(s) for James’ travel?
@@alainacarrinov32 Ugh, the 'ol "doing the most" response. Have a look into why creating more vegans unfortunately doesn't save animals. I wish it did, but it doesn't within the current system. A good place to start is vegan_batgirl and agfairnessalliance. They are trying to change this. All the best.
@@alainacarrinov32 Aspey is now a complete fraud. He wasn't always this way. I hope you are able to look into both sides and make an informed judgement at some point. Peace ✌🏼
So glad you covered this. I’ve been following it all this past week and the whole thing is mind blowing.
It's amazing how fast it escalated and took such a odd, downward spiral into get rich quick schemes.
It’s scary how easily people will throw their money at people to maintain their lifestyle with no positive outcome for vegan or animal rights. I feel really sad that animal charities miss out and struggle to stay afloat each month.
I stopped following him ages ago, I always got bad vibes from him and this really doesn't surprise me...
Did you see the video about him on what he did to that older woman that ran a sanctuary? Despicable human being he is
Yesssss!!!
I've been thinking on this issue all week and I really value how you explained why it's not helpful. In the end, it's about communicating effectively without offending others so they can be open minded enough to just listen.
At this point of the early adoption phase, I'd say the majority of vegan activists are concered with "being right" as opposed to doing what is required to create new vegans. The bulk of that process is reinforcing rather than offending - as most research indicates. I fear that much work will have to be done to reverse the misguided efforts of early angry vegans. Peace.
I think that's spot on.
JW - Early adoption is a numbers game, nothing to do with time. Veganism will be in the early adoption phase for probably the next hundreds of years especially considering animal consumption is to double by 2050.
Jonah - i am curious to know if you support taking hostages at gunpoint to promote veganism?
Jonah - one more chance: Do you support taking hostages at gunpoint to promote veganism? Yes or no?
Vegans answer "NO".
Brill observation at 7:30.
In my experience, the only time the word 'holocaust' works is when you ask someone what the world must look like from the view of a pig in a cage. Holocaust is a typical answer. But the thing is - the person you're talking to says it... not you.
Yeah, the word is problematic even if it can be useful framing to ponder what our species is doing to our fellow earthlings.
That's an interesting twist to your outreach on how to get to that point without stating that point. 👍🏻
It really helps me through the week when you end your videos with "keep fighting". The reason I pointed it out because you didn't in this haha.. 😅
😂😂 I aim to disappoint!
James Aspey started with good intentions I believe, but for around 2.5 years he’s just been bullshitting his way through and so many are oblivious or in denial about what he’s doing. He’s making an utter mockery of the actual reality. He’s literally said (not publicly) that his new form of activism (used to be lots of outreach and speeches) is now showing people that you can be vegan and have fun. I called him out on it and he didn’t even deny it. I don’t think people actually believe that once they become vegan having fun has to go bye bye. It’s all fucking pathetic.
So if you are vegan you only can cry for animals and be depressed all day long? This is pathetic
Really? Life are two days to you too not only for the animals. Its worthy 🙌 to be good with yourself too!
Thanks Jake for explaining it so well, rarely used the term, but will never do it again!
As for Aspey, thought he was at his lowest when he asked for money for his wedding & Only Fans, but this is just mindblowing! I wonder if he really believes he is gonna save the whole movement and all the animals or if he really just is a greedy bad person..
The term Holocaust is not exclusive to any one particular group. It can be applied, not only to animals, but to various repressed groups. No one owns that word.
so why do you guys always use pics of the jewish holocaust then? you're obviously going to get responses from said group if its their imagery that's being used
As a Holocaust educator and animal rights activist, I've struggled with this topic. I appreciate your comments and I see your point!
do you ever make the comparison in your outreach?
Back when I was a baby vegan, I watched Gary Yourofsky videos, and he was interviewed on Israeli TV about why he uses such a term. I supported the use of the word holocaust in regards to animal slaughter, but seldom used it myself. I've had to rethink my stance this week, and as you say, if it offends people more than gets them on our side, then it isn't worth it. We must, therefore, think of other ways to talk about how the animals are being treated in a way that gets that imagery and sympathy.
Oh god. When I was a new vegan, I followed so many of these influencers. Now they make me cringe!
I had a very similar experience as a new vegan. I followed a lot of those “militant” vegans and tried to support what they said, but the more I thought about it myself and talked about it to my friends and family, I realised that it doesn’t help to get anyone on your side. None of my friends started watching vegan documentaries because of me telling them they would be better people if they didn’t eat meat. They just thought I was being a dick about it.
Especially the Holocaust thing turns people really off from even listening to anything, especially here - I’m from Austria, so as a country we still carry a lot of guilt regarding the Holocaust. So it’s not really a topic anyone wants to hear about in the first place since it brings up so many negative emotions. Furthermore I made the experiences that people get really hurt or offended when you use it to describe the mass slaughter of animals. Also it’s just a misuse of the word if you think about it. It doesn’t nearly describe what is happening to animals, it’s not the same thing at all.
For me I found out, that people are way more willing to listen when I’m being kind, understanding, reasonable and compassionate. By explaining the positive effects on health and the environment I got many of my friends to at least eat less meat or even try veganism. I think it’s nearly impossible to get sustainable change when you guilt someone into it. Also I believe, it’s never necessary to use offensive language - no matter in which context. It’s just unnecessarily hurtful and won’t do any good.
The worst part is people are still giving him money....🤦♂️
It's their money....it's a free market.
@@stephss he's scamming vulnerable people.
It's such a shame that so many young and/or new activists - who probably do more day to day activism than many of the movement's "heros" - follow those people so strongly.
Any criticism of them is seen as "splitting the movement". A shame.
Well said
@@anuravindranath8733 how is Joey racist?
Thank you. This was about so much more than James Aspey.
Agreed. and thanks!
Indeed. Because the exact same thing right now is going on with Joey Carbstrong and Earthling Ed. They're pushing HARD for their right to use these words, and they're blaming marginalized communities when they speak up to say this is harming them.
@@HoneyLaBronx Everyone has the right to use them. The only debate is whether they’re effective. Or not. Probably depends on the circumstances.
I’ve been feeling more and more uncomfortable about James Aspey’s post on instagram 🤔
Trickle-down activism 🤣. Great video Jake!
Thanks! ... Ronald Regan would be proud of today's vegan youth.
I was the first to ask James on Insta, while he was still in Bali, if the money he was asking followers for was for a cryptocurrency investment in Panama in the energy company Energy Web, he didn't reply but blocked me. The next I see on his socials was James flying to Panama and staying with the friend who has been posting all over his FB about an amazing investment opportunity in the energy company. It can't be that secret if his friend Randy, with whom he is staying, is telling everyone.
The deal was leaked in a TV interview. You can clearly hear the presenter name the company 'Energy Web'. I am fluent in Spanish-I'm a Spanish teacher so understood every word. If James honestly believed there was nothing wrong in what he is doing, why does he keep blocking me? I'm not being rude, I'm just sharing the facts. You can watch the interview on RUclips, search for NEX Panamá.
ruclips.net/video/zM8dNQRreO0/видео.html
He also, without her consent, overdosed his girlfriend on CBD oil to knock her out to sleep so he could organise a surprise for her 👀 he posted this information himself. All those donations he asked for are more than likely to pay for his wedding too, honestly.
I believe he has already done that. He asked his supporters to pay for his wedding.
Really good video! Thank you for taking the time to put this together 🙌
*nooching my popcorn*
😂😂🍿
Ok I watched. It was good and many lols...but I think you should have been way more critical of the antisemitism and rape comparisons (maybe brought up that Hershaft is an alleged sexual predator) AND I think his comments on trump and him interacting with the Q Anon people in his comments is relevant and deserved of mentioning.
Lastly, and this is NOT -an accusation...you might want to be more mindful of the Ok (reads as WP on screen) sign you make with your fingers, unconsciously while making a point. As it is a well known “white power” symbol.
@@veganpregnancyandparenting4434 - Haha. Not only are the common meanings of common English words verboten, but we better watch those hand gestures and make sure they’re inclusive. Please consider blurring out your fingers or at least provide a warning. Just because you’ve never experienced the trauma of inept sign language, don’t erase those who have...👌🤙🏼🖖🏽🤟🏻👍👆🏾🤌🏾
@@ART_EYELAND Dude, relax.Yes there are symbols and words that are hateful and hurtful and being aware of them is a benefit to those who care to do better.
I used to do this too but it just didn’t work in street activism in 95% of cases and I’m sure it put a lot of people off from every finding more out about veganism
Wow. Great take on it. I don't follow Aspey, but he's mentioned a lot in Aus vegan circles. I wasn't aware of this and I'm really surprised (and shocked) at it. He's always seemed so rational when he's talking to people. Listens to what they say and refutes it calmly.
your videos always make me think about things that i've even considered. thank you for that. i feel that im growing as an activist. i feel very disappointed with james, to be honest. i cannot belive that people still follow for this crap.
thank you 😊
What are your thoughts on the one AV ex-protege I haven't heard your opinion on - Earthling Ed? How would you rate his The Surge?
I've talked a little about it in other videos, but the (very) short of the long is that I am uninterested in his street outreach campaigns and his teaming up with venture capitalists and more into the work he's doing by using his outreach skills and resources to do investigations that are coupled with campaigns against retailers.
@@thecrankyvegan What about his mansion and.sanctuary/petting farm? 🤔
Thanks for clearing lots of stuff up. I'm part of a bit social and activism group here in Melb, still have not met anyone that was influenced by James. There was another person that said that claimed he himself turned 40000 ppl vegan in 2015 here in Melb, still havnt net anyone that that person has turned vegan. Met many that went vegsn from the live export campaign, animals Aust, edgars mission, ALV. But not the 2 men ab9ve.
Totally agree with you. And I've tried to make other vegans aware of how problematic or bad for the community it can be to follow and mimic blindly what these super famous or influential vegans say or do. Yes, they might have helped many people become vegan, but no one has the absolute truth on what's the best way to do activism and as you said in your last video, we are still a young movement and need to continue to learn and evolve, all of this for the animals.
Thanks for your hard work! 🤘🌱🐣
I agree with everything you said. I unfollowed him when he started a gofundme for his wedding...that was my last straw. None of this surprised me. Which is sad.
Thank you for this. You summed it all up perfectly.
Awesome video mate. You’ve Earnt another subscriber 💪
Seb Alex has a great video on it and the history of his peoples Holocaust ruclips.net/video/tbzNjax4K5s/видео.html
There is also an issue that it seems a lot of vegans seem to think that the word Holocaust can only refer to the one on the Jewish population in WW2 when there has been others before it and not a lot of people are recognising this when they are having the conversation to not use the word they only talk about WW2 victims.
Thanks for sharing another great Thursday vid! I have a lot of respect for the amazing work James has done in the past- however- his activism content seemed to change and felt off so I personally stopped following him. I hope he comes around and gets the focus and integrity he once had.
What do you know? Oh, just years of experience and thoughtful critique lol. The new intro is cool too☺️
Oops I said years but I meant ~decades~
He should have waited a 365 days before speaking
May i tell you. I’m a serial rape survivor. Meaning it has happened to me an inordinate amount of times. I went vegan because i saw the videos of how the bulls and cows are handled for the dairy industry and had mad flashbacks. The word rape is the only one that makes sense
Brilliant, you've just put all my thoughts into a much more logical and calm manner. As an Australian, it's really a shame that we seem to have produced some of the most problematic vegans (James, Joey, Freelee & Durian Rider). Thank you for this video!
God yes, especially Durianrider🤪
@@chisler26 Who could forget the man who told us all to add sugar to everything and drink litres of sprite for optimal health. What a wild time to be vegan! 🤣
Wow, you’ve actually changed my mind on using holocaust. Just in that it’s totally ineffectual. I can’t lie, I’m not concerned with offending people, but I completely agree about how you actually touch and reach people.
Not that I was ever actually actively saying it. I was just kinda defending these activists doing it.
Thank you.
I'm guessing this was filmed on a Panasonic GH5? How'd I do??
I am guilty of using and even defending some of the problematic comparisons in the past. But I did change because of multiple discussions with other people and reading up on it. You said so yourself, Jake - you did change after people pointed it out to you. How would you frame within the idea that "holding people acountable" does not work?
Having a level headed, honest communication between people doesn't necessarily equate to holding people accountable. it's how people communicate respectfully. And I think that's how, when it comes to changing hearts and minds through outreach, we see the most success. And on a purely anecdotal level, that's how I've come to the biggest decisions in my life around veganism and activism - having straightforward discussions with people that was rooted in respect for one another.
@@thecrankyvegan Agreed. I have not followed the discussion under James' postings, so don't know how respectful everyone was in their arguments.
@@lenichimer You're better off not following along! 😊
Thank you! Great points. We need less saviors and more accountability.
I really admire the guy behind Vegan Outreach and Earthling Ed's style over that of James or Joey. I went along to my first AV meet recently and honestly listening to the talk by Paul Bashir they make you watch first made me feel all kinds of icky. I was really rethinking whether or not I wanted to go along, but luckily it seems like the people there took a milder approach to their outreach. Still abolitionism, but with empathy for people who haven't switched yet. It made me feel so bad about not feeling comfortable with the strategy, even if the only difference was a few words here and there. Inclusive language, using words other than 'rape, slavery," etc.
He kept saying things like, "you shouldn't want to be their friend," which seriously sent me spiralling, wondering if I really was only trying to get people's approval through outreach (which is fucking ridiculous). So thank you for this video. It's reaffirmed my belief that empathy, honestly, and TACT are all important in equal measure when talking to non-vegans. I've always felt that being open, pragmatic, and trying not to make people defensive is the best kind of activism. I want to help people see that they already believe these things, not preach or force.
"Everybody wants to be the nice vegan," yeah, because asshole vegans don't inspire change. They make even other vegans irate and disgusted.
Paul, James, and Joey -- they talk the talk. "Don't talk to people who aren't reachable," etc. But all three of them are so bitter. They truly do love to argue with people. Compare Ed's "angry" with that of Paul, there is no comparison. Ed, Vegan Outreach, they try to speak reason, the others just want to provoke. I literally heard Paul Bashir say in the same breath that non-vegans need to be held accountable because "everyone knows now what happens to animals" and that "some adults don't know that cows need to have a baby to produce milk." It's insane that they talk about cognitive dissonance while spewing their own.
@Jonah Whale it’s in the same vein as the “hold them accountable” thing. Paul Bashir has this thing he says all the time, that “there’s no point in trying to be kind to people when doing outreach, because the kindest thing you can be is honest.” Which is. Not necessarily true. I think honesty is important. But a lot of the way those three guys in particular talk feels like using the strongest emotive language possible and being as crude as possible in order to shock people, disgust them, horrify them. None of which should be necessary if the footage of the cube is enough to make people want to change. It’s not about shocking them - the footage does that by itself. Without reasonable conversation, I can’t see anyone learning anything from a cube, changing at all.
You’re even told not to talk about anything other than animal rights. It’s so frustrating. You’re discouraged from even starting a conversation by talking about how animal products are unnecessary. I understand the sentiment, because yes, if someone doesn’t wholeheartedly believe in animal rights, then they won’t stay vegan if they switch at all, but seriously? How can anyone be expected to understand why they need to change if they aren’t given that fundamental understanding of what the benefits/reasons are? People should be allowed to care about multiple things at once, and I don’t think just saying “you’re paying for murder” over and over is enough.
I watched Paul doing outreach recently and I don’t think the method is terribly effective. It seemed to make a lot of men defensive and disengage, and a few women seemed genuinely uncomfortable. Personally I’ve always found the really intense stare-down they give quite intimidating. I’m sure they don’t mean it that way, but as a smaller woman, it’s a touch disconcerting even when you completely agree with them, morally.
And his whole thing about “don’t try to talk to people who are unreachable” and “don’t get angry, it doesn’t solve anything” - that’s all bull. I watched him talk for a good 15 minutes with two obviously confrontational farmers and the encounter only ended when he started talking about something they found really ridiculous (I think he was talking about raping animals in the dairy industry) and they walked off. He genuinely shouted down the street after them, gave this whole speech afterwards about “people getting angry with us,” but “holding our ground.” Like he wasn’t the one making the whole cube look bad by loosing HIS temper over some, honestly, pretty mellow guys. Yeah, unreachable and a bit confrontational. But they were mostly just a bit mocking. We all have bad days, but this wasn’t that. He didn’t regret it, wasn’t embarrassed, didn’t even acknowledge how badly he’d slipped. Don’t think he really realised how it looked.
I’m vegan and an abolitionist, at that, and I wanted to get out of there. He sounded like a lunatic. It was embarrassing.
Again, the rest of the activists there had a softer and more broad style. But Paul literally tells you not to “butcher the method” he’s come up with. It feels really culty. Says to put your own personality and spin on the outreach, but then gives you exact quotes to say, tells you what fucking words to use, down to “what YOU do to animals,” instead of “what we humans do to animals.” I’m really uncomfortable with putting people on the spot like that. It makes me feel sick. If someone had spoken to me like that before I went vegan, I think I’d have been really traumatised. If someone cares that much already, you could do some real damage talking to them like that.
I agree ofcourse. I didn't know how to pin point what is bothering me with this comparison, besides not being respectful, and now it is clear, its the fact there is no need to look for comparison in the first place.
Thanks for bringing these points to the table, not many activists talk about it.
I think it’s better if we find different words for these horrible situations, each event deserves its own title and it’s own reverence.
Im a 20 year old woman from Washington state, i watched a few of joeys(who seems to work similarly to james sometimes) videos after watching an equestrian vegan who kinda convinced me to check out the vegan animal rights activist community on youtube, from there i decided to start being vegan about a week ago, i realized it was hypocritical to love certain animals and slaughter others for taste, and then i decided to go watch the more graphic activism videos because i really wanted to cement into my head that what i was doing, making the change and keeping on it was the best decision. I needed to realize that exploiting animals and destroying the environment only for my health to be worse wasn't at all good or fun to do, and i recently found out by going to therapy that im on the autism spectrum, i have to jump through hoops to get diagnosed (because people think that because woman can mask their symptoms better then men that makes them 'not able to be autistic', when in actuality the most medical information we have of autistic people is actually of autistic men/boys and from way back in the day when we knew very little, so for a long time autistic girls and women were practically medically invisible at least when it came to our mental health.sorry for the ramble) and now that ive seen what happens inside those slaughterhouses or breeders or test labs to innocent people without any ability to speak against whats happening to them, it reminded me of what happened to my ancestors and my people (being hidden away or shipped off because of their disabilities, and then they too became tortured abused tested on and neglected beings without a voice, sometimes even being culled because people thought of them as inferior humans) and that might sound insensitive to someone reading this, but i honestly see individuals in every animal and i am also a wiccan who tries to have a more evidence based perspective on things, in my perspective every sentient being has a soul, and when we die that soul carries our recentments our griefs and the purpose that we saw in our lives if any, so when i witnessed the 2 hours of dominion, all i kept seeing was a suffering in life that was never treated, and a suffering in death that is never respected, i saw souls leaving their bodies and becoming recentful to humans, and justifiably so. I know i must sound like a quack, but if youve ever gone somewhere with a presence that lingers, like the stench or a rotting corpse, or like the smoke of a wildfire, its a sad dreadful lingering that feels exhausting to be in, to me thats the presence of someone whos died and not been able to fully explain, express or forgive the suffering they went through. And by eating their corpses.. who knows what that feels like to have someone put you into them. For me realizing these things really truly impacted me in a way that profoundly changed my perspective on things overnight. If i want to be honest then ill say that i never enjoyed those products anyways, firstly, going vegan seems to have already started impoving how i feel day to day, and secondly, all my favorite clothes are synthetic or plantbased clothing, and thirdly, skin is reacting very well with the cruelty free vegan products and seems to be healing good from the ache.
I will say though, my one problem with how joey goes about it is that he comes in at a sort of offensive and aggressive angle that puts alot of people in a more defensive position, and while i understand thats his point in a way i do agree that puts off alot of people because nobody wants to be walking down the street and have an aggressive argument with some guy they just met because that just makes people become more blocked off from certain perspectives and that is definitely not good for any movement, especially for one against the injustice of so many individuals.
He’s so out of touch.
Thank you for this! I can’t begin to tell you the amount of trauma this this has caused me over the last two years. It felt like I was screaming into a void. I’m glad people are finally starting to listen. Some people that is lol. Please accept my friend request on fb!
I don't really use facebook beyond my Cranky Vegan page, if you want to follow along there!
Bang on. At 7:25 you had me clapping.
Interesting vid!
You talk about one of the flaws of outreach being the uncertainty about people actually changing, so we don’t know if it’s effective.
But in reference to the “holding people accountable” approach, you say it’s been tried and failed.
Wouldn’t the same uncertainty that prevents us from commenting on effectiveness apply in both situations?
Let me know if I’ve misrepresented your position 🙂
Thanks for asking as I think it does sound a bit muddy, and I suppose my answer is a bit nuanced.
I think outreach as a sole strategy is a failing strategy because 1) we simply can't physically keep up with the growing population. We will always be falling farther and farther behind. 2) Because of that we will never hit a percentage of people that will make a difference in the demand side of things, particularly because bailouts and subsidies kick in. 3) Part of that failing strategy is the fact that we don't know what people do individually. So we pass it off as "planting a seed" but as most of us know, planting seeds doesn't mean its ever going to grow. and again, we simply don't have the time for that. So I think it's a failure, and one part of that failure is the uncertainty. At this point in our movement, we need concrete tangible victories in order to grow, as opposed to unknowns.
As for 'holding people accountable', that form of outreach has been done for decades now. It's not new. And in places where that type of activism has taken place like the US, UK, Israel, Australia - these places haven't seen a huge long term burst of veganism. In fact, in some places like Israel, it's going backwards. On top of the amount of animals being killed and eaten each year steadily rising. In a few studies i've looked at online, guilt and shame don't appear to be main drivers in making societal changes.
So short of the long, I think both are a failing strategy in making change. I do however think outreach is a vitally important tactic. But it's one piece. I also believe in holding people accountable when it comes to a protest - for instance, getting a ceo of a company to change a practice as part of a pressure campaign where you just need a one time action. But when it comes to people making life long ethical decisions, I don't think you can shame people into it.
@@thecrankyvegan Appreciate the response!
(bit of a long reply incoming, sorry, I know you're busy, no rush)
Would I be able to clarify a little bit what you mean by sole strategy? Do you mean as the only strategy to achieving AL, or does it include demonstrations centred around outreach, even if the individuals participating are engaging in other methods of activism at other times?
Activists are an essential part of change all 'round. I think outreach events are largely focused on demand, but not solely. They are also focused on creating new activists, fostering community, and often have the impact of radicalising people that already are vegan and activists. I have a bias (having participated predominantly in outreach focused activism) but nearly everyone I know involved in direct action, undercover stuff, and campaigning (and some in politics too) started out doing outreach events.
I think that these events having a low barrier to entry, low conflict, and no risk of arrest is useful to get people that care about animals to take that next step and get active.
Do you think that there are methods of activism focusing on issues of the same scale that are more concrete and effective? If so, what?
I agree the "accountable" approach isn't new. I don't think it logically follows that it is ineffective BECAUSE numbers of vegans aren't hugely changing, or animals being killed is steadily rising. There were other methods of activism being used at the same time (or god, I hope so). To say that seems to also say that ANY of the methods of activism focusing on reducing the number of animals killed/increasing the number of vegans at that time were failures.
I agree outreach is one piece in the puzzle. Your content has shifted increased awareness on that for me (thanks).
Am I reading that right that guilt/shame is effective for one time actions, but not for longer term behaviour change?
(little side note) I don't think outreach has to be guilt and shaming, I think it can be building relationships and educating depending on your approach
3 years later..I always wondered what happened to him and then he came out and said he was out of it due to back pain.
Now, he's back on, mostly reviewing videos of other people.
But MANY RUclips activist are using that word. Which started from the guy who turned more people vegan than any other human, Gary Yourofsky.
Nice one! Thank you 👍
I completely agree
Sorry if I missed something but is there any actual evidence he invested in some crypto get rich quick scheme?
Yes join Blocked by the Aspeys Facebook group for evidence.
@@chloeconstantine1853 This comment is from 2 weeks ago, before James had ever mentioned anything about crypto.
@@AlfiePT I could see that, but actually he'd announced it on 27 January on Panama TV.
@@chloeconstantine1853 oh my bad. I remember hearing that but couldn't find that part of the interview.
There is evidence he faked a puppy rescue then killed it
03:37 Gives me a dark thought...as an activist with a systemic aperture (intersecting animal rights with the unsustainability of animals grown or fished for food) my plans for the cow population are closer to the Nazis "final solution" -- in order to restore biodiversity we must "exterminate" existing cow populations. (GULP. Keep your hands off the keyboard and keep reading!) In this illustration the gas chambers are STILL owned and operated for the benefit of human omnivores. In a world dominated by the vegan ethic our dilemma becomes "what to do with the animal species that we've 'domesticated' for food." "Food animals" are part of humanity's footprint, so are by definition not part of nature (even when we let them graze national parks!). As for the "final solution" we will logically consult zoologists who would be able to evaluate how much of the instincts of the modern bovine/porcine/galline/ovine/hircine/equine/assinine remain intact and equip them for liberation into "the wild" (which may be rewilded or a legitimately symbiotic relationship in food forests). The conclusion may be that we're better off letting the "domesticus" species go extinct (loved in sanctuaries but no longer bred) in favor of restoring wild biodiversity -- then again, the mass extinction in our name has done so much damage there may well be gaps to be filled with liberated cows/pigs/chickens/sheep/goats/horses/donkeys (the key to the Latin above...ah, so that's where asinine comes from!) roaming the rewilded grasslands (NOTE: different than rangelands in the glorified "regenerative beef" myth!).
Just philosophy here, amongst vegans. If you can't be effective in outreach without pulling the holocaust card, retreat and retrain. Our rage for the anthropocentric society still puts the onus on us to navigate the minefield of human exceptionalism in every potential new vegan.
Just heard on the news that in Australia ‘pump and dump’ schemes can lead to a A$1mill fine and 15yrs in jail.
Im Jewish, grew up ultra orthodox Chasidish- the community that is still traumatized by the Holocaust.
I support the use of the term "Animal Holocaust" because strong language matters. You dont truly know what works because of how the sleeper effect works. Catherine Klein made a respectful critique for you on your lack of acknowledgement for the sleeper effect, despite her thinking that "Animal Holocaust" is not pragmatic, despite being accurate.
I believe its both effective and accurate because i feel the animal's pain so strongly, and want others to feel the same. Good sales person has to truly believe in themselves.
On point as always Jake👍
Never followed James BUT I found a lot of good vegans criticizing him💕
i think you're spot on. Using terms applied to historical atrocities may be theoretically accurate, but if it alienates a large segment of people, then it may not be the best strategy. My goal as an activist is to cause people to think about who is on their plate and how they got there, and there are many options for doing so - some horrifying and traumatic, some coming for a more soft approach, and some focusing on health and food aspects. It all depends on you as an activist what works best, and what is effective. I've used holocaust comparisons in my writing, but from a more descriptive angle rather than out and out calling it a holocaust. I want people to read my stuff, not X it out, and I think what I describe in my blog is usually horrific enough to catch attention without using trigger catch - phrases and words. As for the investment - that is, in my opinion, a complete and utter attempt to use devoted followers for personal gains. Of course he will "donate" to some sanctuaries when he is finally rich - but the real measure of James Aspey would be if he gave ALL the money to help the cause - wanna bet he doesn't??
Love your explanation regarding the H words use in activism, that was really well said, I agree it doesn’t work.
That’s not to say that what is happening to animals is a H.
I agree that there are better and more affective ways of putting the message out there.
To everyone watching this, please realize that this video like many on RUclips is based on conjecture, speculation and heresay for the purpose of fanning outrage and baiting clicks. Think about it folks. It’s another person casting doubt on others for personal cred. The truth is boring but rumors are fun apparently. This channels acrimony is toxic to both humans and animals. You’ll only rot your brain with this content. Peace.
Or it will help our culture move away from silly behaviours. Have you worked with other grass roots movements? They have worked out that people like JA are not all that helpful.
two weeks later... Hi there!
The problem is, Gary was logical and straightforward. Not a scumbag.. there is a difference between being nasty and being actually radical where you are calculated and coherent.
My main question watching this video would be wether you personally think it is a Holocaust with what's happening with animals?
Although i'm not a fan of James Aspey (I don't like what he's done recently), I do think the whole holocaust thing has opened up a debate in the mainstream which has made some people think about animals in agriculture in a lot respects. I know it's been done before in the past as you mentioned, but I think with modern social media, it may have a different effect of just making people think about animals? Just a couple of thoughts. Enjoying the videos, keep it up!
Thank you for explaining in a didactic manner why those terms can be counterproductive and even backfire on the movement. I think it all boils down to LISTENING. When we listen to the people we're trying to reach with our message, we learn quickly which things work well and which ones make them back off. Some vegans keep preaching their chorus to the masses in a similar manner as fanatic religious, with no attention to the results or the feedback they get. "Trickle-down activism" => genius LOL
Way I see it is that if a Jewish person or any other person with a direct link/experience to whom the Nazis persecuted wishes to use that analogy then that is their choice. As you say prefer to use terminology that does not alienate others and focuses on the complete clusterfuck of mass extermination of billions for a profit, a different word is needed to encompass it. Brilliant post as always. James Aspey's quest for donations was extremily shady but I am interested to know what his case is and would encourage discussion with him....that would make an interesting viseo ;)
And, just learning about you tubey wotsits during lockdown....only just worked out how to comment
@@3CVeganHuntSabs // we are better off having you in the youtube comments!
Great work.
Disrespect who ? Who in modern day are we out reaching who were involved in the ww2 Holocaust?
My thoughts as well
🤣🤣 I swear I was thinking he reminded me of Trump the other day reading his comments
James Aspey could be copying "Brian Rose" from London Real. Recently Brian Rose has been scamming his followers BIG TIME. Its a very similar way of how Brian scammed his followers! Similar word use etc.
James was a guest on his interview show a few years back.
I think James might have got the idea from what Brian has been doing recently. Disgusting.
First, let me say, I'm really digging the artwork. So, I never considered the holocaust to be speciest, but it makes sense. Like you mentioned, the human holocaust were based on genocide... what is happening to animals is mostly traditional (yes capitalism has it's grubby finger in there also.) As for James....I'm really disappointed. I'm sure the betrayal felt by supporters is palpable. I don't have faith that he can recover that support from people who feel duped. Now I understand why Seb Alex made a video addressing the left. Thanks for your opinions, and the video :-)
Cmon mate that's a bit silly. We know exactly what the animals would say. They would say ''get the f*ck away from me with that knife, f*ck off'', that's pretty obvious. It means speak how the you would want to be spoken for. Any victim in any injustice would say the same thing and that would be ''leave me alone, I want to live, this isn't fair''. Plain and simple.
If we are gonna play this game, I am guessing the animals would not suggest you go out into the street, on their behalf, and talk to random strangers about holocaust comparisons in hopes of planting a seed that will maybe but probably not grow months or years later.
@@thecrankyvegan I bet they definitely would. What kinda BS is that. They, like myself wouldn't give a single f*ck what you do because I would either be being loaded onto a concentration camp truck to be executed very soon or would be waiting on death row already. I would be frantic for them to do just anything that would help me because if they did nothing then I'm dead regardless.
@@80slimshadys // so going with your analogy, if you were about to be loaded onto a truck and killed, and there were two people standing outside, one with leaflets, and one with a sledgehammer, you would honestly tell the person with the leaflets to go out and talk to people instead of telling the person with the hammer to batter down the door and come get you?
@@thecrankyvegan I dont think that's analogist to someone saying the word holocaust or not. Thats a false equivalence. When someone says the word holocaust its not its like someone handing out leaflets and someone not saying holocaust is equivalent to rescuing them. I dont see it as a problem. Tel Aviv is a Jewish place and the most vegan place in the wold because of the word holocaust being used
Spot on with the points made in your video. Outreach alone isn't going to achieve animal liberation. Not even close. It still can be useful but other successful social justice movements relied heavily on direct action, lobbying and pressure campaigns. Speaking to outreach, there are so many effective ways to communicate without needing to use one or two or three words. #useyourwords
Can you touch on Jonathan Safran Foer’s comparisons to the Holocaust in Eating Animals?
Must I pay attention to this person? I mean, _must_ I? Jeremy Hess discusses this topic of vocab, of the language we use, often and I always say that we have to speak to non vegans in the language they understand. Offending them/pissing them off is counterproductive to the progress of our movement. Being a dick is never the best strategy to appeal to people. So sick of the brinkmanship so many of the young men in this movement engage in, to the point where I'm starting to question their motivations for being vegan. If it's about feeding your ego, well, animals are gonna die because you are alienating people who might otherwise come aboard. TFP!
But you are always a dick when you comment to non vegans.
He’s just flown business class as well to Panama!!
It was a gift, told it today in a video.
Why is it 13 minutes if its meant to be 3 minutes?
you must be new here :-)
If you do Google rewards (surveys).they give you money to spend on the play store but you can donate the cash via a chat thingy ,can you do one so I can donate my easily earned 20 English pounds ,thank you
That's a nice thought - thanks. If you want to join my patreon, we give all that money away every month to sanctuaries and projects. For $20 you could be a patron for 10 months!
James blocked me just for asking why he was asking for money for his wedding!!
I liked him in the beginning but he annoyed me more and more. Just recently completely unfollowed him on social media. Glad I never gave him my $.
Don't follow leaders, and watch your parking meters.
My thoughts:
It's perhaps not neccecary to use the terms, when we can describe what is happening more directly and powefully without anyways. For example, instead of saying holocause everywhere, one could talk about the numbers, the mass violence, the mistreatment of someone based on their dna, the beating, the reality of the animals suffering.
Sometimes, but probably rarely, it's best to use those terms. Help people make the connection themselves.
To me it was pretty powerful to hear it called a holocaust - but I was already vegan then. I was able to see that connection because I already knew what is happening to animals.
So - the raw description of what happens to animals is powerful enough, for the most part. I think.
Check out Joey Carbstrong's response to this utter B.S.
Can you show us this evidence of him going to Panama for this "investment opportunity"
He's posted about it in the comments on his facebook page. Feel free to dive in there.
I believe someone posted screenshots of him saying this, on Vegans UK.
Is that seriously what the money is going towards? 🤦🏼♀️
The perfect argument is the one that everyone agrees to as soon as they her the first words or sentence. Sugar coated activism doesn't work all the time. The best approach depends on the person or persons to whom you are speaking to. When it come to Cultures,Tradition and religion you have to talk with caution. A lot of Holocaust survivors turned to vegetarianism because it was to much like how animals are treated in Animal Ag. They where using their expearces in compairson longe befor Yourofsky, PETA or Ashby. Are you now saying they don't have the right to use the comparison? I have worked many years in Agriculture supply and have seen a lot of the things that goes on in the Animal Ag. industry are you going to tell me I can't use my experience to convey information no mater how uncomfortable it is to the person I am speaking to. Maybe James Ashby or PETA should have chosen their words more wisely or at least chose a targeted audience instead of the entire world.They where only repeating what Holocaust survivors have said in the past. They don't need a self righteous person jumping in on them. I am sure you have made mistakes in the past in the way you did your activism.
It doesn't sound like you watched my video. Which is fine, I wouldn't watch it either. But like I said in my video, I have made mistakes, and I learned from the conversations and grew in a way that felt right for me.
As for telling holocaust survivors on how they use their experiences in their activism and lives, I specifically say in the video I would not make any decisions on their behalf. I go on what i feel and from the conversations I've had with people. I think people can use their lived experiences in their activism how they see fit. But if you are going to be putting others trauma back on to them in order to provoke guilt, I'm not sure that's the best way forward.
@@thecrankyvegan the best way depends on the person you are talking to. You have to feel them out and take the best path base on how and what the person responds to. In the large scale it is harder to do. Sometimes you just have to make a blanket statement but be prepared to deal with the negative. It is all about how you respond to the negative as to whether you comment works or not
Is JA comparing it to ‘THE’ Holocaust, or just saying it’s ‘A’ holocaust? If the latter, then it’s a fact. The word ‘holocaust’ in that context is defined as a noun to represent “destruction or slaughter on a mass scale”.
Does it matter? The general public, statistics and psychological studies all indicate it doesn’t really work. So to me, end of discussion. Let’s do what works instead of what makes us feel right.
my great uncles were taken to german labour camps. i think the holocaust metaphor is apt. i dunno i seem to be in the minority of people who doesnt get emotional over history... we're alive today...lets try and make our time better, no?
The peta thing you described used Holocaust photos which is a bit different than just using the term. Is that evidence that the term can’t be useful?
If outreach is supposed to paint a picture of such horrifying cruelty that it gets someone to change their entire life, does it matter if there is a physical photo from the WWII holocaust in front of them, if the word is being used to trigger the same response?
@@thecrankyvegan I guess I don’t understand your question or if it’s sarcasm. It seems we’re getting at least two categories of criticism about the comparison from folks . One being that it’s “racist” to utter which is obviously a bit silly. The other is that it’s ineffective, which is somewhat debatable isn’t it? It may be ineffective in some circumstances of course but there are abundant testimonials to the contrary it seems.
@@ART_EYELAND // what I mean is, you don't need to have a physical photo in front of you to spark a powerful emotion. If someone is doing outreach well, they paint a picture for someone. No photograph necessarily required. So I don't feel like there is much of a difference in regards to your original statement.
I don't think I would classify it as racist. But I would push back on it being effective and what you'd call an "abundance" of testimonials. I think they are greatly outweighed by the publics negative response. On top of that, is there an argument to be made that just because something might be effective doesn't make it right? Do we want to simply win, or do we want to make the world a better place? I don't think those things have necessarily the same outcome.
@@thecrankyvegan Yeah you have a point there. There’s definitely a big negative response. Then again people get defensive even when the subject of animal rights is presented with diplomatic language and in the friendliest manner. Makes it hard to discern precisely what would’ve persuaded them or not.
@@ART_EYELAND // For sure. That's why for me, trying to get people to go vegan as the number one way to make change, I think will fail every time. A big majority of the population (at least in the US) care about animals. But they eat them too. Which, yes, is weird. But I think if we can get them to take action for those animals they love - meaning, get them to be activists in some sort of way - then the veganism starts to make more sense. That way you aren't just creating vegans, you're creating activists, which in my opinion, we need more of. That's my approach anyways - activist first, vegan second.
#BoycottMeat and all other animal products, cruelty and exploitation in any way possible!
Trying to dunk on critcs... very effective in social justice :p NOT
Why do you think "holocaust" is offensive?
9:00 I would argue that in some cases making noise and getting attention towards something is more important than how well it is recieved. This concept is very present in marketing. It's even true for youtube thumbnails. And many other things.
The *form* can sometimes be shitty, but as long as it draws attention, it can be worth it getting attention to the *idea*. Because the idea (veganism) is ultimately detached from the form, and although we Humans have biases and can wrongly associate both together, knowing if it's effective is much more complex than just saying ''Many people got upset therefore it's not effective''.
Let's imagine Hitler or Pablo Escobar promoted making donations to good causes at some point in their lives, no matter if it's just for their own ass and to look good, it won't make people who look into it see donating to good causes as a bad thing. Only the way it's been shown is questionable, not the idea of donating to good causes itself.
Back to veganism, we can argue about whether using some words is effective or not and try to find actual data showing that one way gets more people vegan than an other, but right now, no one knows. I don't know myself. Maybe you're right, maybe you aren't. What I disagree with is whenever people pretend they know for sure, and I wish we could admit we don't and instead just say why we think it might or might not be effective.
I'm going to be surprised at anyone including activists and the dominion movement who pretend they know for sure while all we do is guessing.
while I don't agree that words should be associated with specific groups, events, or species. Words *should* be defined based on its actual meaning, not the victim its applied too. However I must relent that using curtain words, though accurately, more often then not gets an undesirable reaction and doesn't help people engage with veganism. We will have to fight the language equality war for the animals *after* we convince people to stop putting them on their plates.