@@UtopianBroadcast1 Star Wars and Star Trek are more popular unfortunately. Then there's the space game franchises that are quite popular as well. B5 is getting old and there hasn't been anything new released in close to two decades. Sad.
How amazing that the ship designs were soooo different. I love Star Trek but most of the races are using the same basic design of 2 warp narcelles (spelling) on either side of a crew area. B5 elder races ships are just wildly different from each other. Refreshing and so well thought out, like everything else in that show.
Best leave it alone, the people of our current time will just fuck with it. Check what Disney did to Star Wars and that is the most basic, kids-of-all-ages low level sci fi..... B5 Cant be remade or added to until we go through some major cataclysm.
I mean they already ruined it themselves. Have you watched legend of the rangers? That film fucking sucked, so did crusade and all but one of the movies. The show had an amazing three seasons, one ok season, one shitty season and one decent movie but that's it. Most of the films sucked. Anything after season 3 was pretty shit with the exception of a few episodes of season 4. If we could get season 1-3 writing and acting quality I would be all in but that's never going to happen.
@@Bitchslapper316 i agree with you about the legend of the rangers...seriously impressively bad... I guess it was better than star wars episodes 1-3 as I still haven't watched 2 and 3 but have seen rangers a few times (I can't believe that withtaht great a franchise they could have something so bad.. so incredibly bad..)
Wow! Interesting stuff. As a member of the Council of Ancients...for AoG.. we got access to alot if stuff from JMS. Your info is a little off. 1) The Triad were the 3rd Oldest Race...followed by the Vorlons...only older were the Shadows...and Lorien's people. The Triumveron is the only vessel they actually travelled in...all other ships were controlled remotely. They see Matter and Energy as equal. It was not unknown for Aspect ships that were nearly destroyed to be back fully operational within minutes...as their pilot just reinstated the matter from the energy. That was their greatest defense. 2) Walker Ships have no weapons. All their "attacks" are bi-product of their sensor systems. 3) Torvalu ships utilize a Stealth field that can spoof even ancient sennors. 4)Mind Rider ship is called the Thought Force...and us basucally a hollow shell...as the systems for the ship are created by specific focusing of the individuals. Their most feared ship..in their day...was the Mind Sphere. It was their version of a Warship...and is is a spectacular ship..a perfect sphere of unknown material with 3 rings of energy lazily rolled arround on different axii...but when the crews "Rage" would build...the sphere would contract and grow dark...and the energy rings would glow intensely and race arround the sphere very dast. 4) Vorlon ships had a series of deflection shieldcof an Advanced Gravitic Natire. Also they could "tweak" their Bioships to gave them focus on specific aspects and shade their hulls a different color. Red for Weapon focus (Kosh Il'kesh) Blue for Defenses...etc. 4)Krishiac Lords were the Youngest of the Ancients .and yes they had 8 hearts..Because their Crystaline life form was massive. They were also 30 feet tall. And a joke was that a Krishiac boarding party was a solitary Krishiac with a thrust pack. Their ships were VERY tough...and that Graviton Blaster was inded a wave weapon that could fold back onto itself causing it to be able to focus on multiple targets in the same shot. Their "Satellites" had gravity blasters of a lesser scale. I am forgetting more than I remember...but you did good.
Based on the one time I saw the Vorlons and Shadows directly fighting each other, I would have put the Vorlons as being more powerful. It was the third season episode in which Kosh was killed.
Agreed. It's a good list but I would have put the Walkers on the nr. 1 spot. Vorlons and Shadows would be second and third. (Although it's impossible to predict how strong the other First Ones ships are. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them could take out a Shadow or Vorlon ship in one hit)
One argument against that is that it was an ambush; the Shadows expected the Vorlons to keep the truce. Nobody knows what would’ve happened in a prepared fight, but the battle at Coriana VI seemed pretty even, and the Shadows had just begun to deploy their death cloud.
@@magicmulder I agree; it was an ambush, and it seems that the Vorlons brought quite a lot of big guns to the fight. Additionally, it looked like the fire from the Vorlon guns had the effect of stunning the Shadow vessels, preventing them from fighting back.
I agree. I seen Vorlons taking out Shadows but no Shadows taking out Vorlons. When it came to the older races the Shadows lacked the fire power and looked as if they was getting their butts handed back to them. In short the Vorlons was making the Shadows look like earth ships in a battle. It was nice to see the Shadows get what they dished out to the young races for a change.
I like that moment when Vorlon planet killer was like "I'm gonna destroy everything and nothing can stop me as I'm so huge", and then those dudes destroy it in seconds. Epic fail in Vorlon history
@@magicmulder The Vorlons never expected the other First Ones. Second All that Firepower out there and Yet Non of other First Ones touch the Shadow Death-Cloud. Thing to remember it took most of the First with the Vorlons to push the Shadows back in the earlier Shadow Wars.
@@TwiceStruck Of course. The way things are presented, the Shadows outnumber all the other First Ones by a significant amount. I personally would have liked to have seen the Vorlons in dire need of help against the 3rd Space Aliens, send out a distress beacon. When all looks like they were about to be obliterated, all of a sudden slicers and other shots hit the 3rd Space Aliens. All the First Ones unified in beating them.
@@andyo393 Earthers Using Vorlon and Minbari Technology base Warships, Don't Omit the Necessary Facts.Humans don't have the technology to take out a Shadow Death Cloud with their most advance ships, even one operated by lesser Race and Not it's original creators
This was something I didn't think I'd see anyone talk about for a long while. Thanks for putting the work in to bring things like this to us original B5 fans and all of the newer ones. We appreciate your work.
Fun fact - Walker ships have no dedicated weapons. The "weapons" are just sensor technology - the "lightning generator" is just their interdimensional communications array. Despite this, their ships are probably the most fearsome in combat, due to how ridiculously powerful they are in every way. Everyone is an ant in the Walkers' playground.
Sounds like the opposite of the guys with the flying saucers. They're so small I forget the name, but they're the only younger race who managed to put _shields_ on their ships. So everyone from the Minbari to the Humans knows it _can_ be done, but the greys aren't telling.
@@tba113 My impression is that the third space aliens probably learned quickly the same lesson the Narn, and canonically the Vorlon, did. Ants in the playground.
@@tba113 According to lore Travelers discovered Thirdspace before hyperspace; way before Vorlons even existed. They didn't tell about those aliens to anyone. This could be one of the reasons why there were this feud between Vorlon's and Travelers. Another reason being this asteroid that destroyed one of Travelers main world. This rock came from Vorlons space..
Omg your amazing b5 is my definitely the best sci fi. Vorlons rock! Proper jogged my memory & made my heart swoon thinking about it. That was an education your a proper geek in the highest regard. Love it! X
I absolutely love the series and the designs of these ships. If I had to say which was more powerful, I’d say the Vorlons. Would love to see modern takes of these ships with updated texture, lighting and rendering methods. They’d still look damn cool. Cheers! 😎👍🏼
This flaw only occurs in "immature" Shadow ships using living being CPUs. If a Shadow ship is allowed to mature at a natural rate (grow for 1000+ years), is piloted by a Shadow, or the living CPU is a telepathic being, the ship becomes immune to telepathic jamming
Telapath beings will detect living beings and other telapaths but a currupted telpath is a void which naturely repulses telapaths.The shadows as a race can still be detected by a telapath and suffers a similiar flaw but with better natural mental shields.'Immature" Shadow ships is a misnumber since they were left over from the last great war.Its basically i am right and you are wrong but to self centered to adnowledge each other thats why young races had to setle the dispute.The vorlons can beat the shadows but will lose the argument.
A "mature" Shadow ship doesn't require a living being CPU. It is a fully sentient lifeform. In the B5 universe they are referred to as Primordial Shadow ships. The Shadows last used these in the war of 10,000 years ago specifically against the other First Ones. Per the rules set by Lorien, they are forbidden to be used against the Younger Races. This information is found in the B5 books Wars of the Ancients, and Darkness and Light: The Vorlon and Shadow Fact Book.
A lot of what held the Vorlons back from being the most powerful (before they went beyond the rim) was that they were afraid of dying. They always held back, even their ships could be piloted remotely. Thy split parts of themselves off before going into battle so that even if they are destroyed they truly don't die. This also goes to how they prevent younger races from getting their hands on or developing tech that could threaten them. Vorlons were all about defense and calculated moves, while the Shadows were more about all out attack, with little worry about losses as long as they got the job done. Its hard to fight such a mentality. Look at the Huns, they lacked the tech of other civilizations but on the battlefield they were feared and won quite a lot.
Tim G I agree..but I think the Shadows still mourned and feard loss..eg when Londo blew up that island base where shadows had hidden on Centauri Prime.. Morden was shocked.. and when Zhadum city was destroyed by white star and Sheridan season 3..the Shadows fled back home from B5.. they used remotes too..eg humanoids as CPUs in ships..
@@neilmurphy966 Oh well, I think you'd be pissed when so many of your kind were killed at once. And that was Morden, a human, not the Shadows themselves. Also, that episode never sat well with me as to how easily Mordern's Shadow guards were killed by Londo's Centauri aides, when it took a far more massive force to kill one Vorlon at B5.
@@alexandresobreiramartins9461 yep yr right unless somehow Londo had upgraded their weaponry..it made for a striking scene tho..good television but poor in being thought out!? 🤔
@@alexandresobreiramartins9461 Well it's left ambiguous as to what happened to the shadows that were shot. Since no corpses were left behind I had assumed they phased out to somewhere far away.. When Kosh was killed it took 3 shadows quite a while to kill him and he wasn't even really fighting back because if he did things were going to be worse for everyone including the new races he actually cared about. Kosh straight up engaged in delaying tactics in the fight so he could touch people's minds to impart some last minute wisdom.
I always thought the Lordships were just the cores of differentiated small bodies like Ceres or Vesta, carved out and fitted with a bunch of graviton tech to work as a starship.
I suppose the Thirdspace gunships (the smaller of the two designs we see) don't qualify for this list because they're from another dimension, and thus aren't an Ancient Race design. Still, I'd say they deserve an honorable mention, since the Thirdspace aliens are apparently at least as old as the Vorlons, and their ships are _immensely_ powerful: they're comparable to fighters in maneuverability, but they barely notice hits from Starfury pulse cannons at point-blank range, and a couple solid hits from the aliens' beam weapons are enough to take down White Stars or cut Minbari War Cruisers in half. What's _really_ interesting, though, is how similar they look to Vorlon ships. In a setting where every race has dramatically different approaches to ship design, the Vorlon and Thirdspace small ships are practically cousins.
It's implied that those ships were actually ancient vorlon designs, from when they dominated part of the vorlon fleet. They're probably still piloted by enthralled vorlons, too. The ships that were more alien? With the energy globe in the middle? They were the actual thirdspace alien ships.
@@KimPossibleShockwave I'd heard that the similarity wasn't a coincidence, but that is a possibility I hadn't considered. It may also explain why the gunships all self-destructed after the gate was destroyed: being finally freed from the aliens' psychic domination, and confronted with the horror of what they'd spent the last million years doing, they took the quick way out.
@@tba113 Or, more darkly, the thralls ended themselves either 'voluntarily' or by the command of the thirdspace aliens as the gateway was permanently closed for some reason?
@@KimPossibleShockwave Given how self-destructive the Thirdspace aliens' influence was on the humans and other younger races aboard B5, that's certainly a possibility too. I figured the Thirdspace aliens had scrubbed their expeditionary force when Sheridan vaporized the gateway either as a security measure to keep their tech out of enemy hands, or because they aren't really individuals at all, but extensions of a single guiding intelligence, and can't function without a direct link to it. That was more or less the train of thought I'd had for the gunships' self-destruction under the theory that they were being run by the Thirdspace aliens themselves, anyway, but there's no reason why it wouldn't hold with mind-controlled Vorlons manning the gunships just as well. To an extent, it might hold even better, since presumably the last thing the Thirdspace aliens would want would be a fleet of heavily armed, angry Vorlons who had firsthand knowledge of how they operated. In addition to being even darker, it puts a terrifying spin on the situation: what would an enthralled Vorlon do if it missed the self-destruct command? Obviously mobbing it with a bunch of White Stars would bring it down, but suppose some got away: would the thralldom wear off as soon as the link is cut, like it did with the younger races, or does the Vorlons' far deeper psychic presence mean the mind control persists, leaving them as agents of evil roaming the galaxy and looking to restore the link to Thirdspace? With the heavy influence of the Cthulhu Mythos that JMS cited for the Thirdspace movie, I can't rule out the "those things are still out there" possibility. Spooky stuff - I love it!
Whoa! You learn something new everyday the show always made it sound like the Vorlons where the oldest and not the Shadows very interesting. IS IT ME OR WAS THE 90s THE GOLDEN AGE OF SCI-FI ON TV. B5,TNG,STV,DS9,SG-1,SGA,SLIDERS,Earth Final Conflict, Space Above an Beyond,War of the Worlds, Spawn and many more and what do we have now for good sci-fi not a dam thing!!
Loren is the last of his race, the first race, and the only naturally immortal race... the shadows live on Za'Ha'Dum simply to be near him, the shadows worship him... He does not need any ship... Loriens lack of ship is therefore more powerful...
The B5 universe is facing the same problem as the WH40k universe (and ironically, the DBZ universe): Power Balancing. Basically, there is a threshold for power levels that you cannot reach without creating overpowered factions. This is where shenanigans start simply because economy is rarely factored into sci-fi. There is one game I really like, Stellaris, which I recommend all to try. They have developed a fantastic work around to this: Yes,you *can* design your ships to be incredibly powerful with ancient Tech, BUT those rely on finite resources (in most playthroughs). Losing one of those ships might be irreplaceable depending on how you developed your star empire.
I agree with most of the video here and clearly you've done far more research than I on Babylon 5. However, that being said, I have to disagree about your ranking for the Shadows. The Walkers of Sigma 957, though probably the most powerful, still lacked the numbers much like the German Tiger Tanks of WWII; not a direct comparison but more of an analogy. The Tiger Tanks of WWII were advanced and powerful plus could withstand a beating but mechanical issues and lack of repair parts and actual numbers prevented them from being more effective much like the Walkers. Power is only useful when it can be used in numbers as Germany found out the hard way by being overrun by weaker tanks in massive quantities. Both the Vorlons and Shadows had the ability to kill a Planet but the Vorlon Planet Killer was a feat to behold while the Shadows way seemed to be playing catch up. At some point the Walkers ship would need to charge up or be repaired or retreat from the fight to return another day hence the reason I don't feel they should be number one. I'd venture to say that the Vorlons edged out the Shadows both in Tech and Power; although not by much. Unfortunately the older races didn't get the needed backstory development to really get to know them the way the series focused on the Vorlons and Shadows and other races and that is unfortunate. Granted both Vorlons or Shadows were not as advanced as the other older races then did, however, have numbers and that does matter. A single ship is not invincible against an armada even if it can take one hell of a beating, at some point it's going to run out of power or ammo or fuel and must withdraw to survive or be destroyed all together. If you remember in the series it took 3 or 4 Shadows to kill Kosh, a single Vorlon so that is something to consider. The best and most confusing line was "We are all Kosh" and I find myself wondering about that. The Mystery that is the Vorlon Race could have produced its own spinoff series to say the least but I digress... Cheers...
Thanks for this video! It's the best concerning B5 ancients I ever saw. I'm amazed and grateful at how people still care about the show! I disagree with the Shadows being stronger than the Vorlons. The B5 shadow war wasn't the first one. If the Shadows would've been stronger than the Vorlons, even by a fraction, I suspect they wouldn't have gone into hibernation at the last wars end. What do you think?
The reason why I put the shadows ships as the strongest becuase during the first shadow war they were able to fight the vorlons, the minbari and the other first ones. Thier ships must be very powerful to with hold such a force. If you think about it, they had to go to hibernation to wait until the first ones started to go beyond the rim. It was a smart strategy.
@@UtopianBroadcast1 The shadows had several allies of their own and started the first shadow war by first inciting/provocing wars between the younger races and then following up by attacking with their allies. Also keep in mind that the shadows helped their allies with technology making their allied races far stronger than the Vorlons allies. Vorlons did not share their technology with their allies. Despite this the Shadows still lost. Before that they had fought the vorlons in "the last great war" and lost that time too.
The Shadows did NOT want to win that war. They never even came out with their full force until B5. They just poked around to spark war, and weed out the weaker races. Their goal was not to kill other races, but to make them stronger through conflict.
@@juzoli I think your interpretation is thoroughly refuted. By the show as well as several other canon sources. (Especially the novels by Jeanne Cavelos. According to those, deemed canon by JMS, all The Shadows really care about is control for themselves and chaos for all others. Besides, they came out in earnest in the previous war. Just like the Vorlons, they refrained from using planet killers because of a fear for uncontrollable escalation.)
@@rogo7777 The show is very explicit about stating that Shadows and Vorlons are TEACHING younger races. Neither of then wants to just destroy them and win a war. Just teach them through conflict and war. That was the whole point of the plot, and was refuted nowhere...
I was just thinking,If the shadows went into hibernation for the last 1,000 years and the vorlons and others did not ,Wouldn't they be more advanced than the shadows? Look how far we have come in just over 100 years since first powered flight.
I watched this series when it played. But only bits and pieces of gathered info did I obtain. This presentation is super cool. Thanks for all the info. \
Based on what I saw in the show, the Vorlon's and Shadows are suggested to be pretty closely matched to a stalemate, and feared a direct conflict with each other. The Shadows have a planet cloud weapon, and the Vorlon's have their own planet destroyer weapon. Both are pretty well matched from what the show seemed to indicate. It was a balance between order and chaos idea. Neither could out perform the other, but would recruit the will of the younger races to fight for them. The Shadows might have been more ruthless mind you, and more manipulative. Looking at you Mr. Morden.
I would probably put the Vorlon Destroyer over the Battle Crab; they both can give and take a beating, but the energy shields give the Vorlons an extra layer of defense that the Shadow ship lacks.
@@leemiah3583 Disagree: the Vorlons handled the Shadows pretty well- at a minimum, to parity. When the intervened in Brakiri space, the Vorlon fleet essentially curbstomped the Shadow fleet. And the next time we see them directly engage (at Corriana VI), we see far more Shadows falling than Vorlon (even in direct SvV clashes). Sure, the Vorlon developed Telepaths- what nation doesn't keep up weapons development when there's a clear and present threat?- Of course, we can't forget that the Shadows historically directly engaged the Vorlon's proxies, whereas the glowing squids did not reciprocate. The Telepaths were a way for Younger Races to actually hold off the Shadows- they were essentially AK's given to spear-wielding people being attacked by a superpower. The Vorlons themselves didn't need them (except, maybe, as cannon fodder), but they were useful. Plus, the Vorlons were themselves telepathic.
@@Sephiroth144 we never see the shadows using half of the weapons or technology that they have also the hole point of the vorlons making telepaths is the fact that they need them the in the final war you see shadows destroying vorlons just as easy as everyone else and when the shadows death cloud surrounded the entire fleet that would of beat every one at the same time the power draining and super cooling plus massive missiles in combination with there cutting beems that could of won there and then
@@leemiah3583 Oh, you mean that same death cloud that the Younger Races popped? Sure, it required a "heroic sacrifice ram", but if humies could take out their ultimate weapon, ya think that the Vorlons wouldn't know of the weak spot or be able to take it out? C'mon now...
@@Sephiroth144 mate that was not in control of the shadows and was also an incomplete one and if the vorlons did now then why didn't they take it out then because they couldn't it's the same a putting a ant in a sports car and tell it drive it full power
Babylon 5 is a show that should be revisited nowadays. The lore is so expansive and interesting, I could imagine a game of thrones sort of super detailed long form show in this universe
Yeah the traveller's are the top ranked ancient race. Sensors so advanced, their effect is like a weapon on most races. Ending the last war between the ancient races, by literally teleporting the moon of the kirishac lords homework to another dimension. Letting the kirishac lords sweat it out and contemplate their mistake before bringing it back. They are more powerful than the vorlons or shadows, but extremely isolationist, with a habit of going off to explore other dimensions for centuries at a time.
I really wouldn't call them isolationist; they just grew beyond petty conflict. They care about knowledge through exploration and are the only race that actively travelled to third space for exploration.
I would say that one-on-one, the Vorlon ships where absolutely more powerful than shadows. The shadows where more numerous, yet absolutely feared the Vorlons. This was stated in the series.
Vorlons ambushed the shadows and caught them off guard. At the battle of corianna 3 they were well evenly matched accept shadow death cloud probably better than vorlon planet killer. Think of it in these terms. Of all the wars the first ones had, they always had to band together to drive the shadows back to zhadum. Plus the vorlons cheated by creating telepaths. If you gotta cheat you obviously can't beat your opponent 1 on 1.
The game books state Loriens ship was unarmed, but we'll protected. To the other Ancients he was like a God, and none of them would of shot at his ship. To the younger races, he was so far advanced, literally being the first sentient being, they could not touch him.
Shadows: Key to evolution is conflict... well technically they are not wrong.. Conflict does drive the most innovation and research and is a natural part of survival of the fittest in evolution... as long as its never done to extinction it can promote the most evolution. On the flip side the Vorlons repressing races innovation and evolution out of fear could be considered them stifling the lesser races.
Vorlon ships seemed to be superior, truth be told. Their shields could resist focused Shadow vessel beams, and their own medium craft could single handedly focus and destroy Shadow ships.
Very cool. Thank you for providing all of this data. The amount of info is so extensive. . .It must've taken a lot of time and effort. I am a _big_ B5 fan, and have never come across this information. Thank you!
I love that this show understand that since these races are so ancient, lets make the ships design as absurd as possible. Other scifi media would just succumb to cool looking design but still too 'recognizable'. It is so rare for any scifi media to portray ancient race as unique as this show.
Wait, are you telling me that the Vorlons and the Shadows are older and more powerful than most of the First Ones? I don't like that if that is canon. I always thought of it as cool that the First Ones, being more powerful than both of them but tired of interfering with the younger races, were the only reason why we even stood a chance against BOTH the Vorlons and the Shadows; that they deigned to finally intervene. Also, didn't Lorien say that he and the rest of the First Ones found the Vorlons and Shadows when they were still infant races?
Sadly it's TRUE. I got most of my information from wars of the ancients which is a book which is made for a board game. All the information from the book is cannon.
@@nicoj84 No, but they do say that they found Shadows and Vorlons when they (S and V) were infant races. I don't know if he meant that THEY (who found them) referred to himself and his own species of LorienS or if he meant him, his own species and the First Ones. However, that's in the show. It might say something else entirely in the books and expanded universe.
@@Egobyte83 I've not read any book apart from the Centauri Trilogy and I remember it being said in the series 100% that the Shadows were the oldest of the first ones. I'm not that sure about the Vorlons but also feel it was said in the show.
@@nicoj84 Well, I remember 100% that it wasn't said about any of them. It was, however, said in the episode "Into The Fire" by Lorien that they (whoever "they" are) found the Vorlons and Shadows when they were infant races. Now, I don't know if he meant that he himself or he in conjunction with the First Ones were the ones who found them, that I leave up to speculation.
is there any lore on the "HAND"?which were also an ancient race and it seemed that all of the other "first ones" banded together and banished them to another dimension or galaxy.
@Freia Ricola it can't be 3rd space was confirmed to have come from a universe in which they killed all other races. Now the Vorlon theory could be true we just need more evidence. "We need more Babylon 5".
Finally. An enlightening and informative video containing detailed yet succinct information about the first ones ships; plus a little biographical content on the first ones themselves. In my mind, B5 was the best science fiction series ever made. From start to finish it was flawless. Moreover and crucially important is that it was ‘believable and plausible’ sci fi. I like Star Trek but it’s a little too far fetched for me at times with technology that defies the laws of physics. Transporters, food replicators, to name but two utterly ridiculous notions. It’s also too clinical and tidy with empires and other groups in neat borders with ship designs that seem to follow similar patterns. Earth is a utopian paradise and religion and cultural issues no longer relevant. B5 reeked of realism. I personally don’t believe the human race will ever unite as ‘one’ but at least B5’s version of Earth, humans, technology and the galaxy is palatable.
I dislike Star Trek, it is very generic and unrealistic. I love the look of the Babylon 5 Ancient ships, they look ancient as though billions of years of research came that that.
It is clear from the show that a Shadow vessel is no match for a Vorlon Star dreadnought (the correct name) and certainly not some of the others. Rubbish
The primordial Shadow ships were bigger and more powerful than the standard crabs we saw on TV. I agree, no way the Shadows are number one. They're slightly above the Vorlons.
Yeah, I tend to put the Vorlons ahead of the Shadows because they (presumably) worked on their technology whilst the Shadows hibernated for a thousand years (although the Vorlons only just won the last war with help of others). I am only going on the TV series, which is canon, and have not read anything, which may be part of an expanded universe.
Shadows are superior to all races because their technology is above all and because their technology can make their followers op. And because of their number. The shadows are literally like ants. Save for the great eye all individuals are expendable.
I always got the impression that the Vorlon ships were more powerful in terms of firepower, but the Shadow vessels were more maneuverable and had faster reaction timing, able to pivot and aim at a wider range of points immediately, while the Vorlons needed to turn or pivot the entire ship to bring their main weapons to bear upon an adversary. I'm not saying that is true, just the impression I got when watching the show. It seemed like in a 1 to 1 Vorlons had more raw power but Shadows had more numbers and were harder to land a hit on.
I had always thought that all the other first ones races only had one ship each, which had always seemed odd to me. This is because in the show they only ever show one ship from each race unlike the fleets of Vorlon and Shadow vessels. These ships are also very large. I also believe that these other first one ships are far more powerful than any Vorlon or Shadow vessel. Also the main Vorlon Destroyer appears to be more powerful than any Shadow Battle Crab in the series. I am only going by the series, not by any reference material.
My understanding from the show was most of each of the respective First Ones' races had already left beyond the rim so you only had these remnants that I believe were waiting for Lorien and/or the Vorlons and Shadows to leave.
@@brendanbuxton9848Yes Lorien had stated that most of the first ones had passed beyond the rim. He also stated that the Vorlons and the Shadows had stayed behind to guide the younger races, but that they had eventually they squabbled like children with each other and now each only wanted to prove it was right. I also believe that some of the first ones were hesitant to move on, or maybe afraid to, and that they had become fond of the Universe, as Lorien stated "now I find I don't want to go" or something like that. Why the other first ones stayed, or why Lorien decided to stay on is not stated, I think but I could be wrong, though I do believe he was waiting for the right being (John Sheridan) to come along to make his move in convincing the Vorlons and Shadows that it was time to go beyond the rim . It is true that it appears that all the first ones had incredible respect for Lorien, he even states that the Shadows did, you can see it in the way the Shadows and the Vorlons speak to him in their final battle, and it was Lorien that introduced most of the other first ones to Ivanova, and apparently convinced them to join their cause. Lorien goes as far to say it was "Important" to get them all, I'm guessing that he knew their continued presence in the Universe would interfere with or endanger the Younger races. You may be right that most of the population of those other five races had passed beyond the rim and only a "scouting" force remained behind. It would be a great question to ask J Michael Straczynski because I don't think he really went into much detain on the topic in the series.
Ships would be built according to need. The younger races for example had need of vessels for a range of duties from local patrols to system garrison duties. Even though a battleship class might be the best ship it is typically costly to build and crew so you might find yourself out numbered. So you also need to strike a balance between quality and quantity. If an elder race wasn't particularly aggressive it might be satisfied building one type of ship the meets all its needs. It was only after war broke out between the Shadow and Vorlons that they started to develop a variety of ships to meet their needs during the wars.
just update the CGI. The story can't be improved. The acting can't be improved. (well, there were some cringe worthy over acting by small part actors) Either create a whole new show based on the original, or just update all the CGI.
@@andyknolls8735 Best the fans wait till after the 2020 elections and perhaps the makers of B5 could make a sequel. They owe us fans of the show that much for being loyal for over 20 years. Also the show should be over the air unlike the new Star Trek, which completely breaks the point of a free- classless society.
@@hackman669 Dude, I am a true fan and I don't want to see B5 ruined by political crap that seems to be injected into every movie today. I would rather live with my fond memories.
If we go by the implications of the show, the Vorlons had the upper hand, as when they decided to go in to direct conflict, they were just shredding everything, and the alliance was collected to stop the big dreadnought. Unless I'm remembering things wrong.
You're right, the Vorlons did have the upper hand; they were the first to concentrate their forces into a huge fleet with a Planet Killer. Until this point the Shadows had launched multiple attacks against the younger races with small fleets in order to cause chaos. This changed when the Shadows amassed their own Planetkiller fleet at Coriana 6 after being lured there by Sheridan.
Vorlon ships seem to do better against Shadow Ships. Heck, Shadow Ships have been beaten by Younger Races ships. I suppose that Shadow Ships are built on the idea that they're trying to train up the Younger Races. If you want species to evolve, you'll have a hard time if you do orbital bombardments on cavemen.
To be fair they were only killed by younger race ships when they were swarmed and outnumbered and in most cases because they were being jammed out by telepaths. Telepaths were also created in the younger races by the vorlons as a future weapon against the shadows. The Vorlon ships does seem to be more powerful than the shadow cruiser.
Nah!!!Vorlons above the Shadows!!!!!!However I cannot see any race in Star Trek or Star Wars beating any of those ships!!Well done for that video and RESPECT
Possible thoughts are Species 8472, The Voth, The Prophets, The Douwd and The Q are only ones I can think of. Maybe The Nacene but sure on that on that one
The aliens of 3rd space weren't discussed. They were more powerful than the Vorlons and were defined as "anti-life". They had some deadly ships seen in that particular episode.
Question: in all battles between Babylon5 vs Star Wars, Starfleet, Klingons, Romulans, Borg or any other space fantasy group, Babylon5 just wipes the battlefield easily(no effort. Why?
I'm sure you know far more than me, I just remember one scene from B5 where the Vorlons had a direct confrontation with the Shadows and the Shadow vessels seemed to be unable to put up much of a fight.
Those other First Ones were really awesome, kind of a shame we didn't get to see more of them. Maybe one day JMS will get backing for a movie about the First Shadow War and include them as part of it.
How about the Thirdspace Aliens? I think, they had extremely powerfull smaller ships, and the younger races in the "Thirdspace" movie were very lucky, when the capital ships didn't pass through the Gate before Sheridan blew it up.
From what I have come to understand, the shadow ships you see in the show are not actual shadow ships. More like expendable mass grown for the sole purpose of making lesser races have to fight, and having an actual chance to win. I'd rank them Last on the list to be honest, as even lesser races can defeat them. That said, real shadow ships are said to be by far the most powerful, as the shadows are said to have the greatest tech out of all the races. Their ships were so powerful they were able to defeat the aliens from 3rd space, which even the collective forces of the rest couldn't do.
From what I understand, the Shadows are not as old as you make them sound. The Vorlons and the Shadows are the youngest of all the First Ones. It is wrong to say that they are older than the Walkers of Sigma 957.
If I remember correctly the series Babylon 5, Vorlons and shadows are the youngest breeds of the "very first breeds." In the battles where the shadows came upon the ships of the very first races, I know they could not destroy a ship of the very first.
The Shadows did fear all things Vorlon, Vorlon technology is telepathic, and Shadow technology is controlled by a sentient being from a younger race. Shadow vessels are vulnerable to telepathic attack.
They feared vorlon technology because they had a prophecy of sorts that their homeworld would be destroyed if anything vorlon landed on it. This came to pass when a White Star, a mimbari/vorlon hybridized ship, smashed into their main city with a tihS ton of nukes, courtesy of Sheridan. There were also some fears because of telepathic interference, as shadow ships were vulnerable (via the enslaved CPU). They tried to counter this by using modified telepaths as upgrades, and IIRC it worked to a degree. Basically, it was fear born of pragmatism than irrational fear/a phobia.
I would say the Vorlons are definitely more powerful than the shadows. they had two wars with each other and won. The shadow home world was decimated but the vorlon home world untouched.
I love B5 one thing about I found a bit annoying was we were introduced to stories then nothing much came of them like the great machine on epsilon 3, or in the movie River of Souls the race the soul hunters took when they were evolving, there was a lot left unanswered but I guess that is what keeps us talking about the show, all up it was a pretty great five years then all the years after watching the DVDs over and over again got to watch them all at least once a year. It was a real shame Crusade sucked it could have really gone somewhere.
You're amazing! I always wanted to know more about the First Ones! Thanks for keeping the Babylon 5 legacy alive my friend!
Your welcome, It's amazing that there's not a lot of SCIFI youtube channels talking about B5. I hope to see B5 continue it's story again.
Good research.
@@UtopianBroadcast1 Star Wars and Star Trek are more popular unfortunately. Then there's the space game franchises that are quite popular as well. B5 is getting old and there hasn't been anything new released in close to two decades. Sad.
How amazing that the ship designs were soooo different. I love Star Trek but most of the races are using the same basic design of 2 warp narcelles (spelling) on either side of a crew area. B5 elder races ships are just wildly different from each other.
Refreshing and so well thought out, like everything else in that show.
Most of info is a bullshit and has nothing sense in a Babylon 5 series. Just read and watch the original.
I love that B5 ships actually look alien. I miss this show...
The "Reboot" seems to be on its way!
have you heard about the animated movie thats coming out next month?
Babylon 5 (whole show + 1 movie) is on Blu Ray now came out in Dec!!!!!!
ah yes, there is the "new" series that is being worked on as well.
@@truthseeker6532 Good to know! On a different note, does anyone else think the Minbari ships look like fancy goldfish?
B-5 is the best sci-fi in forty years. We need more from that universe
Best leave it alone, the people of our current time will just fuck with it. Check what Disney did to Star Wars and that is the most basic, kids-of-all-ages low level sci fi.....
B5 Cant be remade or added to until we go through some major cataclysm.
I mean they already ruined it themselves. Have you watched legend of the rangers? That film fucking sucked, so did crusade and all but one of the movies.
The show had an amazing three seasons, one ok season, one shitty season and one decent movie but that's it.
Most of the films sucked. Anything after season 3 was pretty shit with the exception of a few episodes of season 4.
If we could get season 1-3 writing and acting quality I would be all in but that's never going to happen.
@@Bitchslapper316 i agree with you about the legend of the rangers...seriously impressively bad... I guess it was better than star wars episodes 1-3 as I still haven't watched 2 and 3 but have seen rangers a few times (I can't believe that withtaht great a franchise they could have something so bad.. so incredibly bad..)
@@albertbresca5801 Yeah I was honestly shocked how bad it was.
Expanse is good for realism. B5 come close
Babylon 5 was ahead of its type. I love the shadows, vorlon and walkers ships. Great show.
Wow! Interesting stuff. As a member of the Council of Ancients...for AoG.. we got access to alot if stuff from JMS. Your info is a little off.
1) The Triad were the 3rd Oldest Race...followed by the Vorlons...only older were the Shadows...and Lorien's people. The Triumveron is the only vessel they actually travelled in...all other ships were controlled remotely. They see Matter and Energy as equal. It was not unknown for Aspect ships that were nearly destroyed to be back fully operational within minutes...as their pilot just reinstated the matter from the energy. That was their greatest defense.
2) Walker Ships have no weapons. All their "attacks" are bi-product of their sensor systems.
3) Torvalu ships utilize a Stealth field that can spoof even ancient sennors.
4)Mind Rider ship is called the Thought Force...and us basucally a hollow shell...as the systems for the ship are created by specific focusing of the individuals. Their most feared ship..in their day...was the Mind Sphere. It was their version of a Warship...and is is a spectacular ship..a perfect sphere of unknown material with 3 rings of energy lazily rolled arround on different axii...but when the crews "Rage" would build...the sphere would contract and grow dark...and the energy rings would glow intensely and race arround the sphere very dast.
4) Vorlon ships had a series of deflection shieldcof an Advanced Gravitic Natire. Also they could "tweak" their Bioships to gave them focus on specific aspects and shade their hulls a different color. Red for Weapon focus (Kosh Il'kesh) Blue for Defenses...etc.
4)Krishiac Lords were the Youngest of the Ancients .and yes they had 8 hearts..Because their Crystaline life form was massive. They were also 30 feet tall. And a joke was that a Krishiac boarding party was a solitary Krishiac with a thrust pack. Their ships were VERY tough...and that Graviton Blaster was inded a wave weapon that could fold back onto itself causing it to be able to focus on multiple targets in the same shot. Their "Satellites" had gravity blasters of a lesser scale.
I am forgetting more than I remember...but you did good.
I love The Walkers of Sigma 957 ship. It's the prettiest spaceship I've ever seen in all the sci-fi shows I've seen, combined!
My favorite too , Disco ball UFO :D
I guess you might be too young for the "mothership" of close encounters?...lol
@@aamerikanreality6153 it seems inspired by that ship.
Based on the one time I saw the Vorlons and Shadows directly fighting each other, I would have put the Vorlons as being more powerful. It was the third season episode in which Kosh was killed.
Agreed. It's a good list but I would have put the Walkers on the nr. 1 spot. Vorlons and Shadows would be second and third. (Although it's impossible to predict how strong the other First Ones ships are. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them could take out a Shadow or Vorlon ship in one hit)
The Vorlons are more powerful, but the Shadows just outnumber everybody.
One argument against that is that it was an ambush; the Shadows expected the Vorlons to keep the truce. Nobody knows what would’ve happened in a prepared fight, but the battle at Coriana VI seemed pretty even, and the Shadows had just begun to deploy their death cloud.
@@magicmulder I agree; it was an ambush, and it seems that the Vorlons brought quite a lot of big guns to the fight. Additionally, it looked like the fire from the Vorlon guns had the effect of stunning the Shadow vessels, preventing them from fighting back.
I agree. I seen Vorlons taking out Shadows but no Shadows taking out Vorlons. When it came to the older races the Shadows lacked the fire power and looked as if they was getting their butts handed back to them. In short the Vorlons was making the Shadows look like earth ships in a battle. It was nice to see the Shadows get what they dished out to the young races for a change.
I like that moment when Vorlon planet killer was like "I'm gonna destroy everything and nothing can stop me as I'm so huge", and then those dudes destroy it in seconds. Epic fail in Vorlon history
@mandellorian It looked like a few seconds of fire from the Walker ship was the key part.
@@magicmulder The Vorlons never expected the other First Ones. Second All that Firepower out there and Yet Non of other First Ones touch the Shadow Death-Cloud. Thing to remember it took most of the First with the Vorlons to push the Shadows back in the earlier Shadow Wars.
@@TwiceStruck Of course. The way things are presented, the Shadows outnumber all the other First Ones by a significant amount.
I personally would have liked to have seen the Vorlons in dire need of help against the 3rd Space Aliens, send out a distress beacon. When all looks like they were about to be obliterated, all of a sudden slicers and other shots hit the 3rd Space Aliens. All the First Ones unified in beating them.
@@TwiceStruck and yer a mere 5 years later the Earthers blow up a shadow death cloud like it was nothing.
@@andyo393 Earthers Using Vorlon and Minbari Technology base Warships, Don't Omit the Necessary Facts.Humans don't have the technology to take out a Shadow Death Cloud with their most advance ships, even one operated by lesser Race and Not it's original creators
This was something I didn't think I'd see anyone talk about for a long while. Thanks for putting the work in to bring things like this to us original B5 fans and all of the newer ones. We appreciate your work.
LOL, At first glance I thought you said BS fans!
Fun fact - Walker ships have no dedicated weapons. The "weapons" are just sensor technology - the "lightning generator" is just their interdimensional communications array. Despite this, their ships are probably the most fearsome in combat, due to how ridiculously powerful they are in every way. Everyone is an ant in the Walkers' playground.
Sounds like the opposite of the guys with the flying saucers. They're so small I forget the name, but they're the only younger race who managed to put _shields_ on their ships.
So everyone from the Minbari to the Humans knows it _can_ be done, but the greys aren't telling.
@@JoshSweetvale the Vree and I feel bad about the whole Abduction reperasions debacle we put them through.
The Walkers' interdimensional explorations make me wonder whether they ever dealt with the Thirdspace aliens.
@@tba113 My impression is that the third space aliens probably learned quickly the same lesson the Narn, and canonically the Vorlon, did. Ants in the playground.
@@tba113
According to lore Travelers discovered Thirdspace before hyperspace; way before Vorlons even existed. They didn't tell about those aliens to anyone.
This could be one of the reasons why there were this feud between Vorlon's and Travelers. Another reason being this asteroid that destroyed one of Travelers main world. This rock came from Vorlons space..
Omg your amazing b5 is my definitely the best sci fi. Vorlons rock! Proper jogged my memory & made my heart swoon thinking about it. That was an education your a proper geek in the highest regard. Love it! X
I absolutely love the series and the designs of these ships. If I had to say which was more powerful, I’d say the Vorlons. Would love to see modern takes of these ships with updated texture, lighting and rendering methods. They’d still look damn cool.
Cheers! 😎👍🏼
Shadows vessels had a flaw in its design. Concentrated Psi attacks could cripple the ship making it an easy target.
They were planning to counter this by using telepaths in their ships, but the war ended too soon for that.
The vorlons are more powerful tham shadows as the could have won many times but wanted to beat others through there beliefs.
This flaw only occurs in "immature" Shadow ships using living being CPUs.
If a Shadow ship is allowed to mature at a natural rate (grow for 1000+ years), is piloted by a Shadow, or the living CPU is a telepathic being, the ship becomes immune to telepathic jamming
Telapath beings will detect living beings and other telapaths but a currupted telpath is a void which naturely repulses telapaths.The shadows as a race can still be detected by a telapath and suffers a similiar flaw but with better natural mental shields.'Immature" Shadow ships is a misnumber since they were left over from the last great war.Its basically i am right and you are wrong but to self centered to adnowledge each other thats why young races had to setle the dispute.The vorlons can beat the shadows but will lose the argument.
A "mature" Shadow ship doesn't require a living being CPU. It is a fully sentient lifeform. In the B5 universe they are referred to as Primordial Shadow ships. The Shadows last used these in the war of 10,000 years ago specifically against the other First Ones. Per the rules set by Lorien, they are forbidden to be used against the Younger Races. This information is found in the B5 books Wars of the Ancients, and Darkness and Light: The Vorlon and Shadow Fact Book.
Extremely good analysis. Thank you for posting this video.
No analysis. It was copied from some mostly non-canon B5 game book... The use of the verb "to be" was atrocious!
A lot of what held the Vorlons back from being the most powerful (before they went beyond the rim) was that they were afraid of dying. They always held back, even their ships could be piloted remotely. Thy split parts of themselves off before going into battle so that even if they are destroyed they truly don't die.
This also goes to how they prevent younger races from getting their hands on or developing tech that could threaten them.
Vorlons were all about defense and calculated moves, while the Shadows were more about all out attack, with little worry about losses as long as they got the job done. Its hard to fight such a mentality. Look at the Huns, they lacked the tech of other civilizations but on the battlefield they were feared and won quite a lot.
Tim G I agree..but I think the Shadows still mourned and feard loss..eg when Londo blew up that island base where shadows had hidden on Centauri Prime.. Morden was shocked.. and when Zhadum city was destroyed by white star and Sheridan season 3..the Shadows fled back home from B5.. they used remotes too..eg humanoids as CPUs in ships..
@@neilmurphy966 Oh well, I think you'd be pissed when so many of your kind were killed at once. And that was Morden, a human, not the Shadows themselves. Also, that episode never sat well with me as to how easily Mordern's Shadow guards were killed by Londo's Centauri aides, when it took a far more massive force to kill one Vorlon at B5.
@@alexandresobreiramartins9461 yep yr right unless somehow Londo had upgraded their weaponry..it made for a striking scene tho..good television but poor in being thought out!? 🤔
@@neilmurphy966 Yeah, agreed.
@@alexandresobreiramartins9461 Well it's left ambiguous as to what happened to the shadows that were shot. Since no corpses were left behind I had assumed they phased out to somewhere far away..
When Kosh was killed it took 3 shadows quite a while to kill him and he wasn't even really fighting back because if he did things were going to be worse for everyone including the new races he actually cared about. Kosh straight up engaged in delaying tactics in the fight so he could touch people's minds to impart some last minute wisdom.
I always thought the Lordships were just the cores of differentiated small bodies like Ceres or Vesta, carved out and fitted with a bunch of graviton tech to work as a starship.
I suppose the Thirdspace gunships (the smaller of the two designs we see) don't qualify for this list because they're from another dimension, and thus aren't an Ancient Race design.
Still, I'd say they deserve an honorable mention, since the Thirdspace aliens are apparently at least as old as the Vorlons, and their ships are _immensely_ powerful: they're comparable to fighters in maneuverability, but they barely notice hits from Starfury pulse cannons at point-blank range, and a couple solid hits from the aliens' beam weapons are enough to take down White Stars or cut Minbari War Cruisers in half.
What's _really_ interesting, though, is how similar they look to Vorlon ships. In a setting where every race has dramatically different approaches to ship design, the Vorlon and Thirdspace small ships are practically cousins.
It's implied that those ships were actually ancient vorlon designs, from when they dominated part of the vorlon fleet. They're probably still piloted by enthralled vorlons, too.
The ships that were more alien? With the energy globe in the middle? They were the actual thirdspace alien ships.
@@KimPossibleShockwave I'd heard that the similarity wasn't a coincidence, but that is a possibility I hadn't considered. It may also explain why the gunships all self-destructed after the gate was destroyed: being finally freed from the aliens' psychic domination, and confronted with the horror of what they'd spent the last million years doing, they took the quick way out.
@@tba113 Or, more darkly, the thralls ended themselves either 'voluntarily' or by the command of the thirdspace aliens as the gateway was permanently closed for some reason?
@@KimPossibleShockwave Given how self-destructive the Thirdspace aliens' influence was on the humans and other younger races aboard B5, that's certainly a possibility too. I figured the Thirdspace aliens had scrubbed their expeditionary force when Sheridan vaporized the gateway either as a security measure to keep their tech out of enemy hands, or because they aren't really individuals at all, but extensions of a single guiding intelligence, and can't function without a direct link to it.
That was more or less the train of thought I'd had for the gunships' self-destruction under the theory that they were being run by the Thirdspace aliens themselves, anyway, but there's no reason why it wouldn't hold with mind-controlled Vorlons manning the gunships just as well. To an extent, it might hold even better, since presumably the last thing the Thirdspace aliens would want would be a fleet of heavily armed, angry Vorlons who had firsthand knowledge of how they operated.
In addition to being even darker, it puts a terrifying spin on the situation: what would an enthralled Vorlon do if it missed the self-destruct command? Obviously mobbing it with a bunch of White Stars would bring it down, but suppose some got away: would the thralldom wear off as soon as the link is cut, like it did with the younger races, or does the Vorlons' far deeper psychic presence mean the mind control persists, leaving them as agents of evil roaming the galaxy and looking to restore the link to Thirdspace?
With the heavy influence of the Cthulhu Mythos that JMS cited for the Thirdspace movie, I can't rule out the "those things are still out there" possibility.
Spooky stuff - I love it!
Outstanding! I had no idea this much backstory existed in the b5 universe!
Whoa! You learn something new everyday the show always made it sound like the Vorlons where the oldest and not the Shadows very interesting. IS IT ME OR WAS THE 90s THE GOLDEN AGE OF SCI-FI ON TV. B5,TNG,STV,DS9,SG-1,SGA,SLIDERS,Earth Final Conflict, Space Above an Beyond,War of the Worlds, Spawn and many more and what do we have now for good sci-fi not a dam thing!!
Loren is the last of his race, the first race, and the only naturally immortal race... the shadows live on Za'Ha'Dum simply to be near him, the shadows worship him...
He does not need any ship... Loriens lack of ship is therefore more powerful...
I am so grateful for people like yourself as it gives me a new perspective on reality and everything this one lonely planet has to offer.
Didn't a Vorlon ship heavy cruise absorb a direct Shadow slicer beam? During the episode when Kosh was reluctant to get involved but then gave in?
Love the B5 universe! Nicely done.
Good video and I liked how you used that Babylon 5 Wars game source material.
Great video :)
The B5 universe is facing the same problem as the WH40k universe (and ironically, the DBZ universe): Power Balancing.
Basically, there is a threshold for power levels that you cannot reach without creating overpowered factions. This is where shenanigans start simply because economy is rarely factored into sci-fi.
There is one game I really like, Stellaris, which I recommend all to try. They have developed a fantastic work around to this:
Yes,you *can* design your ships to be incredibly powerful with ancient Tech, BUT those rely on finite resources (in most playthroughs). Losing one of those ships might be irreplaceable depending on how you developed your star empire.
Brilliantly done. Thank you for this
Awesome breakdown of the first ones, the Walkers have always been my favourite.
I agree with most of the video here and clearly you've done far more research than I on Babylon 5. However, that being said, I have to disagree about your ranking for the Shadows. The Walkers of Sigma 957, though probably the most powerful, still lacked the numbers much like the German Tiger Tanks of WWII; not a direct comparison but more of an analogy. The Tiger Tanks of WWII were advanced and powerful plus could withstand a beating but mechanical issues and lack of repair parts and actual numbers prevented them from being more effective much like the Walkers. Power is only useful when it can be used in numbers as Germany found out the hard way by being overrun by weaker tanks in massive quantities. Both the Vorlons and Shadows had the ability to kill a Planet but the Vorlon Planet Killer was a feat to behold while the Shadows way seemed to be playing catch up. At some point the Walkers ship would need to charge up or be repaired or retreat from the fight to return another day hence the reason I don't feel they should be number one.
I'd venture to say that the Vorlons edged out the Shadows both in Tech and Power; although not by much. Unfortunately the older races didn't get the needed backstory development to really get to know them the way the series focused on the Vorlons and Shadows and other races and that is unfortunate. Granted both Vorlons or Shadows were not as advanced as the other older races then did, however, have numbers and that does matter. A single ship is not invincible against an armada even if it can take one hell of a beating, at some point it's going to run out of power or ammo or fuel and must withdraw to survive or be destroyed all together. If you remember in the series it took 3 or 4 Shadows to kill Kosh, a single Vorlon so that is something to consider. The best and most confusing line was "We are all Kosh" and I find myself wondering about that. The Mystery that is the Vorlon Race could have produced its own spinoff series to say the least but I digress... Cheers...
Great Video ! I wish they would make a Remake or Remaster of Babylon 5 one of the Best Sci fi series EVER
Thanks for this video! It's the best concerning B5 ancients I ever saw. I'm amazed and grateful at how people still care about the show!
I disagree with the Shadows being stronger than the Vorlons. The B5 shadow war wasn't the first one. If the Shadows would've been stronger than the Vorlons, even by a fraction, I suspect they wouldn't have gone into hibernation at the last wars end. What do you think?
The reason why I put the shadows ships as the strongest becuase during the first shadow war they were able to fight the vorlons, the minbari and the other first ones. Thier ships must be very powerful to with hold such a force. If you think about it, they had to go to hibernation to wait until the first ones started to go beyond the rim. It was a smart strategy.
@@UtopianBroadcast1 The shadows had several allies of their own and started the first shadow war by first inciting/provocing wars between the younger races and then following up by attacking with their allies. Also keep in mind that the shadows helped their allies with technology making their allied races far stronger than the Vorlons allies. Vorlons did not share their technology with their allies. Despite this the Shadows still lost. Before that they had fought the vorlons in "the last great war" and lost that time too.
The Shadows did NOT want to win that war. They never even came out with their full force until B5. They just poked around to spark war, and weed out the weaker races.
Their goal was not to kill other races, but to make them stronger through conflict.
@@juzoli I think your interpretation is thoroughly refuted. By the show as well as several other canon sources. (Especially the novels by Jeanne Cavelos. According to those, deemed canon by JMS, all The Shadows really care about is control for themselves and chaos for all others. Besides, they came out in earnest in the previous war. Just like the Vorlons, they refrained from using planet killers because of a fear for uncontrollable escalation.)
@@rogo7777 The show is very explicit about stating that Shadows and Vorlons are TEACHING younger races. Neither of then wants to just destroy them and win a war. Just teach them through conflict and war.
That was the whole point of the plot, and was refuted nowhere...
They literally shoot their anger at their enemies. LOL Legend!
Hopefully it doesn't look as bad as b5 excalibur series karate fighting targeting systems... Man so much cheese lol
I was just thinking,If the shadows went into hibernation for the last 1,000 years and the vorlons and others did not ,Wouldn't they be more advanced than the shadows? Look how far we have come in just over 100 years since first powered flight.
Wowsa! Just finished season 4 and this video was very interesting!
The Walkers' Traveler is my favorite ship design - beautiful
Do you have a video on the Thirdspace aliens/ships?
I watched this series when it played. But only bits and pieces of gathered info did I obtain. This presentation is super cool. Thanks for all the info.
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Based on what I saw in the show, the Vorlon's and Shadows are suggested to be pretty closely matched to a stalemate, and feared a direct conflict with each other. The Shadows have a planet cloud weapon, and the Vorlon's have their own planet destroyer weapon. Both are pretty well matched from what the show seemed to indicate. It was a balance between order and chaos idea. Neither could out perform the other, but would recruit the will of the younger races to fight for them.
The Shadows might have been more ruthless mind you, and more manipulative. Looking at you Mr. Morden.
The Walkers are fascinating. They're supposed to be the most advanced of the first ones and are able to freely manipulate dimensional physics.
I am convinced we have not seen all the weapons systems and defensive systems these ancient race ships have to offer.
I would probably put the Vorlon Destroyer over the Battle Crab; they both can give and take a beating, but the energy shields give the Vorlons an extra layer of defense that the Shadow ship lacks.
Yes but every one has to remember that even the vorlons needed telepaths without them nothing could stand against the shadows
@@leemiah3583 Disagree: the Vorlons handled the Shadows pretty well- at a minimum, to parity. When the intervened in Brakiri space, the Vorlon fleet essentially curbstomped the Shadow fleet. And the next time we see them directly engage (at Corriana VI), we see far more Shadows falling than Vorlon (even in direct SvV clashes).
Sure, the Vorlon developed Telepaths- what nation doesn't keep up weapons development when there's a clear and present threat?- Of course, we can't forget that the Shadows historically directly engaged the Vorlon's proxies, whereas the glowing squids did not reciprocate. The Telepaths were a way for Younger Races to actually hold off the Shadows- they were essentially AK's given to spear-wielding people being attacked by a superpower. The Vorlons themselves didn't need them (except, maybe, as cannon fodder), but they were useful. Plus, the Vorlons were themselves telepathic.
@@Sephiroth144 we never see the shadows using half of the weapons or technology that they have also the hole point of the vorlons making telepaths is the fact that they need them the in the final war you see shadows destroying vorlons just as easy as everyone else and when the shadows death cloud surrounded the entire fleet that would of beat every one at the same time the power draining and super cooling plus massive missiles in combination with there cutting beems that could of won there and then
@@leemiah3583 Oh, you mean that same death cloud that the Younger Races popped? Sure, it required a "heroic sacrifice ram", but if humies could take out their ultimate weapon, ya think that the Vorlons wouldn't know of the weak spot or be able to take it out? C'mon now...
@@Sephiroth144 mate that was not in control of the shadows and was also an incomplete one and if the vorlons did now then why didn't they take it out then because they couldn't it's the same a putting a ant in a sports car and tell it drive it full power
What episodes do we see the ships, beyond the shadows and Vorlons?
You can purchase it (Season three on) on RUclips. Memories... Good ones.
5k subs and more than 200k views - about a show long extinct? Well done!
Not extinct, by some accounts. Might be regenerated from a primordial growth chamber, soon...
B5 is so awesome!!!
Love this series.
The Traveler has a strong Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind vibe
B 5 so underrated
Great content. Very well done.
Babylon 5 is a show that should be revisited nowadays. The lore is so expansive and interesting, I could imagine a game of thrones sort of super detailed long form show in this universe
Great video and thanks.
That heart has better abs than I do
They sure they need 8 of them?
So awesome!
Cool breakdown of the First Ones! Gotta say, I'm enjoying your channel?
Thanks? Lol
Yeah the traveller's are the top ranked ancient race. Sensors so advanced, their effect is like a weapon on most races. Ending the last war between the ancient races, by literally teleporting the moon of the kirishac lords homework to another dimension. Letting the kirishac lords sweat it out and contemplate their mistake before bringing it back. They are more powerful than the vorlons or shadows, but extremely isolationist, with a habit of going off to explore other dimensions for centuries at a time.
I really wouldn't call them isolationist; they just grew beyond petty conflict. They care about knowledge through exploration and are the only race that actively travelled to third space for exploration.
Thanks
I would say that one-on-one, the Vorlon ships where absolutely more powerful than shadows. The shadows where more numerous, yet absolutely feared the Vorlons. This was stated in the series.
Vorlons ambushed the shadows and caught them off guard. At the battle of corianna 3 they were well evenly matched accept shadow death cloud probably better than vorlon planet killer.
Think of it in these terms. Of all the wars the first ones had, they always had to band together to drive the shadows back to zhadum. Plus the vorlons cheated by creating telepaths. If you gotta cheat you obviously can't beat your opponent 1 on 1.
Missing out Lorien's ship, on which he and Sheridan returned from Z'ha'dum.
That ship was mainly just a transport
Was probably part of Lorien in some way
@@itsnodawayitustabe5654 Or his mojo.
The game books state Loriens ship was unarmed, but we'll protected. To the other Ancients he was like a God, and none of them would of shot at his ship. To the younger races, he was so far advanced, literally being the first sentient being, they could not touch him.
Hmmm wonder if anyone has remaster anything from babylon 5
Shadows: Key to evolution is conflict... well technically they are not wrong.. Conflict does drive the most innovation and research and is a natural part of survival of the fittest in evolution... as long as its never done to extinction it can promote the most evolution. On the flip side the Vorlons repressing races innovation and evolution out of fear could be considered them stifling the lesser races.
B5 classic ahead of its time
Vorlon ships seemed to be superior, truth be told. Their shields could resist focused Shadow vessel beams, and their own medium craft could single handedly focus and destroy Shadow ships.
Best sf series ever
Any chance for a reboot ? So.e of the old cast mixed in. I have such fond memories of B5, watching it on sick days or weekends of the 1990's
Very cool. Thank you for providing all of this data. The amount of info is so extensive. . .It must've taken a lot of time and effort. I am a _big_ B5 fan, and have never come across this information. Thank you!
Nice vid. Babylon 5 was indeed one of the best sci-fi shows to hit TV. Am I the only one to think that the Kirishiac ships look a bit phallic?
I love that this show understand that since these races are so ancient, lets make the ships design as absurd as possible. Other scifi media would just succumb to cool looking design but still too 'recognizable'. It is so rare for any scifi media to portray ancient race as unique as this show.
Why did you rate the shadow higher than the vorlons?
Wait, are you telling me that the Vorlons and the Shadows are older and more powerful than most of the First Ones? I don't like that if that is canon. I always thought of it as cool that the First Ones, being more powerful than both of them but tired of interfering with the younger races, were the only reason why we even stood a chance against BOTH the Vorlons and the Shadows; that they deigned to finally intervene. Also, didn't Lorien say that he and the rest of the First Ones found the Vorlons and Shadows when they were still infant races?
Sadly it's TRUE. I got most of my information from wars of the ancients which is a book which is made for a board game. All the information from the book is cannon.
Doesn't Lorien say that the Vorlons and Shadows are the oldest? I think Morden and Justin also say it to Sheridan on ZhaDum.
@@nicoj84 No, but they do say that they found Shadows and Vorlons when they (S and V) were infant races. I don't know if he meant that THEY (who found them) referred to himself and his own species of LorienS or if he meant him, his own species and the First Ones. However, that's in the show. It might say something else entirely in the books and expanded universe.
@@Egobyte83 I've not read any book apart from the Centauri Trilogy and I remember it being said in the series 100% that the Shadows were the oldest of the first ones. I'm not that sure about the Vorlons but also feel it was said in the show.
@@nicoj84 Well, I remember 100% that it wasn't said about any of them. It was, however, said in the episode "Into The Fire" by Lorien that they (whoever "they" are) found the Vorlons and Shadows when they were infant races. Now, I don't know if he meant that he himself or he in conjunction with the First Ones were the ones who found them, that I leave up to speculation.
is there any lore on the "HAND"?which were also an ancient race and it seemed that all of the other "first ones" banded together and banished them to another dimension or galaxy.
There is some lore online but the book I got about the ancient did not mentioned the hand. I'll include some the hand lore in another video soon.
I remember asking myself that many times back in high school upon first viewing...and day dreaming about it. Great question
Yep I found some stuff in the Between Darkness and Light RPG book! So interesting! You can download most of those RPG books online btw
@Freia Ricola it can't be 3rd space was confirmed to have come from a universe in which they killed all other races. Now the Vorlon theory could be true we just need more evidence. "We need more Babylon 5".
and over all third space ships.
Finally. An enlightening and informative video containing detailed yet succinct information about the first ones ships; plus a little biographical content on the first ones themselves. In my mind, B5 was the best science fiction series ever made. From start to finish it was flawless. Moreover and crucially important is that it was ‘believable and plausible’ sci fi. I like Star Trek but it’s a little too far fetched for me at times with technology that defies the laws of physics. Transporters, food replicators, to name but two utterly ridiculous notions. It’s also too clinical and tidy with empires and other groups in neat borders with ship designs that seem to follow similar patterns. Earth is a utopian paradise and religion and cultural issues no longer relevant. B5 reeked of realism. I personally don’t believe the human race will ever unite as ‘one’ but at least B5’s version of Earth, humans, technology and the galaxy is palatable.
I dislike Star Trek, it is very generic and unrealistic. I love the look of the Babylon 5 Ancient ships, they look ancient as though billions of years of research came that that.
Круто! Давно хотелось об этом информацию 👍
It is clear from the show that a Shadow vessel is no match for a Vorlon Star dreadnought (the correct name) and certainly not some of the others. Rubbish
The primordial Shadow ships were bigger and more powerful than the standard crabs we saw on TV.
I agree, no way the Shadows are number one. They're slightly above the Vorlons.
Yeah, I tend to put the Vorlons ahead of the Shadows because they (presumably) worked on their technology whilst the Shadows hibernated for a thousand years (although the Vorlons only just won the last war with help of others). I am only going on the TV series, which is canon, and have not read anything, which may be part of an expanded universe.
Shadows are superior to all races because their technology is above all and because their technology can make their followers op. And because of their number. The shadows are literally like ants. Save for the great eye all individuals are expendable.
The Vorlons had the better ships, the shadows had the numbers.
@@shazattack3711 bit like the USA vs Soviet Union
I always got the impression that the Vorlon ships were more powerful in terms of firepower, but the Shadow vessels were more maneuverable and had faster reaction timing, able to pivot and aim at a wider range of points immediately, while the Vorlons needed to turn or pivot the entire ship to bring their main weapons to bear upon an adversary.
I'm not saying that is true, just the impression I got when watching the show. It seemed like in a 1 to 1 Vorlons had more raw power but Shadows had more numbers and were harder to land a hit on.
I had always thought that all the other first ones races only had one ship each, which had always seemed odd to me. This is because in the show they only ever show one ship from each race unlike the fleets of Vorlon and Shadow vessels. These ships are also very large. I also believe that these other first one ships are far more powerful than any Vorlon or Shadow vessel. Also the main Vorlon Destroyer appears to be more powerful than any Shadow Battle Crab in the series. I am only going by the series, not by any reference material.
My understanding from the show was most of each of the respective First Ones' races had already left beyond the rim so you only had these remnants that I believe were waiting for Lorien and/or the Vorlons and Shadows to leave.
@@brendanbuxton9848Yes Lorien had stated that most of the first ones had passed beyond the rim. He also stated that the Vorlons and the Shadows had stayed behind to guide the younger races, but that they had eventually they squabbled like children with each other and now each only wanted to prove it was right. I also believe that some of the first ones were hesitant to move on, or maybe afraid to, and that they had become fond of the Universe, as Lorien stated "now I find I don't want to go" or something like that. Why the other first ones stayed, or why Lorien decided to stay on is not stated, I think but I could be wrong, though I do believe he was waiting for the right being (John Sheridan) to come along to make his move in convincing the Vorlons and Shadows that it was time to go beyond the rim . It is true that it appears that all the first ones had incredible respect for Lorien, he even states that the Shadows did, you can see it in the way the Shadows and the Vorlons speak to him in their final battle, and it was Lorien that introduced most of the other first ones to Ivanova, and apparently convinced them to join their cause. Lorien goes as far to say it was "Important" to get them all, I'm guessing that he knew their continued presence in the Universe would interfere with or endanger the Younger races. You may be right that most of the population of those other five races had passed beyond the rim and only a "scouting" force remained behind. It would be a great question to ask J Michael Straczynski because I don't think he really went into much detain on the topic in the series.
Ships would be built according to need. The younger races for example had need of vessels for a range of duties from local patrols to system garrison duties. Even though a battleship class might be the best ship it is typically costly to build and crew so you might find yourself out numbered. So you also need to strike a balance between quality and quantity.
If an elder race wasn't particularly aggressive it might be satisfied building one type of ship the meets all its needs. It was only after war broke out between the Shadow and Vorlons that they started to develop a variety of ships to meet their needs during the wars.
a modern remake of the series would be awesome.
Who, could replace Londo or J'kar? Very big shoes to fill.
just update the CGI. The story can't be improved. The acting can't be improved. (well, there were some cringe worthy over acting by small part actors)
Either create a whole new show based on the original, or just update all the CGI.
NO sjws will infiltrate it and ruin it like everything else, I will stick with rewatching my DVDs
@@andyknolls8735 Best the fans wait till after the 2020 elections and perhaps the makers of B5 could make a sequel. They owe us fans of the show that much for being loyal for over 20 years. Also the show should be over the air unlike the new Star Trek, which completely breaks the point of a free- classless society.
@@hackman669 Dude, I am a true fan and I don't want to see B5 ruined by political crap that seems to be injected into every movie today. I would rather live with my fond memories.
Super interesting.
Then the "thought force" should've been absolute nightmares for the shadows, right?
If we go by the implications of the show, the Vorlons had the upper hand, as when they decided to go in to direct conflict, they were just shredding everything, and the alliance was collected to stop the big dreadnought. Unless I'm remembering things wrong.
You're right, the Vorlons did have the upper hand; they were the first to concentrate their forces into a huge fleet with a Planet Killer. Until this point the Shadows had launched multiple attacks against the younger races with small fleets in order to cause chaos. This changed when the Shadows amassed their own Planetkiller fleet at Coriana 6 after being lured there by Sheridan.
Vorlon ships seem to do better against Shadow Ships.
Heck, Shadow Ships have been beaten by Younger Races ships.
I suppose that Shadow Ships are built on the idea that they're trying to train up the Younger Races. If you want species to evolve, you'll have a hard time if you do orbital bombardments on cavemen.
The Shadow was a villain that was too strong, so they had to give them weaknesses so that the battles wouldn't be completely hopeless
To be fair they were only killed by younger race ships when they were swarmed and outnumbered and in most cases because they were being jammed out by telepaths. Telepaths were also created in the younger races by the vorlons as a future weapon against the shadows.
The Vorlon ships does seem to be more powerful than the shadow cruiser.
Nah!!!Vorlons above the Shadows!!!!!!However I cannot see any race in Star Trek or Star Wars beating any of those ships!!Well done for that video and RESPECT
The Q
@@readermike8355 hmmm........true,especially Q's insults and Sarcasm
The dou'd incredible power but also conscience
Possible thoughts are Species 8472, The Voth, The Prophets, The Douwd and The Q are only ones I can think of. Maybe The Nacene but sure on that on that one
Well done
Just as an age thing, aren’t the third space aliens older than the shadows?
What about the Virlon planet killer?
The aliens of 3rd space weren't discussed. They were more powerful than the Vorlons and were defined as "anti-life". They had some deadly ships seen in that particular episode.
What about the Thirdspace aliens? They're supposed to be more ancient and more powerful than the Vorlons or maybe even the Shadows.
True, but I wouldn't classify them as part of the Ancients. They're from a different dimension and age.
Question: in all battles between Babylon5 vs Star Wars, Starfleet, Klingons, Romulans, Borg or any other space fantasy group, Babylon5 just wipes the battlefield easily(no effort. Why?
You have the walkers listed as being from sigma 975 not sigma 957. What gives? Typo?
I'm sure you know far more than me, I just remember one scene from B5 where the Vorlons had a direct confrontation with the Shadows and the Shadow vessels seemed to be unable to put up much of a fight.
Those other First Ones were really awesome, kind of a shame we didn't get to see more of them. Maybe one day JMS will get backing for a movie about the First Shadow War and include them as part of it.
warner bros own the rights to babylon 5 and dosent want to make any more babylon 5 movies or tv
Warner owns the TV rights, JMS owns the movie rights.
@@Anx34500 its so funny how this comment aged, knowing that a new babylon 5 movie is being released next month
In the series the Shadows ships seemed pretty fragile come paired to the other ancients vessels
How about the Thirdspace Aliens? I think, they had extremely powerfull smaller ships, and the younger races in the "Thirdspace" movie were very lucky, when the capital ships didn't pass through the Gate before Sheridan blew it up.
Nice video.
btw what music did you use as the back ground music? its very peaceful/ yet mysterious
I think it's this one. ruclips.net/video/XVbvE0PJyss/видео.html
From what I have come to understand, the shadow ships you see in the show are not actual shadow ships. More like expendable mass grown for the sole purpose of making lesser races have to fight, and having an actual chance to win. I'd rank them Last on the list to be honest, as even lesser races can defeat them.
That said, real shadow ships are said to be by far the most powerful, as the shadows are said to have the greatest tech out of all the races. Their ships were so powerful they were able to defeat the aliens from 3rd space, which even the collective forces of the rest couldn't do.
From what I understand, the Shadows are not as old as you make them sound. The Vorlons and the Shadows are the youngest of all the First Ones. It is wrong to say that they are older than the Walkers of Sigma 957.
If I remember correctly the series Babylon 5, Vorlons and shadows are the youngest breeds of the "very first breeds."
In the battles where the shadows came upon the ships of the very first races, I know they could not destroy a ship of the very first.
Interesting
Didn't the Vorlons have the 'planet killer' ship that Londo was so fearful of, and wasn't the Shadows always fearful of Vorlon technology?
The Shadows did fear all things Vorlon, Vorlon technology is telepathic, and Shadow technology is controlled by a sentient being from a younger race. Shadow vessels are vulnerable to telepathic attack.
The Vorlons always seemed to have the better ships, the Shadows had the numbers.
They feared vorlon technology because they had a prophecy of sorts that their homeworld would be destroyed if anything vorlon landed on it. This came to pass when a White Star, a mimbari/vorlon hybridized ship, smashed into their main city with a tihS ton of nukes, courtesy of Sheridan.
There were also some fears because of telepathic interference, as shadow ships were vulnerable (via the enslaved CPU). They tried to counter this by using modified telepaths as upgrades, and IIRC it worked to a degree.
Basically, it was fear born of pragmatism than irrational fear/a phobia.
Where and when were the other First Ones mentioned? I don't recall them in any of the shows except for the Walkers and the other one
They were shown in the last battle of the shadow war. ruclips.net/video/APDr-CopqXQ/видео.html. Watch the end of the video.
@@UtopianBroadcast1 I remember the ships, but don't remember any explanation of all the First Ones, just Ivanova meeting the Walkers.
I would say the Vorlons are definitely more powerful than the shadows. they had two wars with each other and won. The shadow home world was decimated but the vorlon home world untouched.
I love B5 one thing about I found a bit annoying was we were introduced to stories then nothing much came of them like the great machine on epsilon 3, or in the movie River of Souls the race the soul hunters took when they were evolving, there was a lot left unanswered but I guess that is what keeps us talking about the show, all up it was a pretty great five years then all the years after watching the DVDs over and over again got to watch them all at least once a year. It was a real shame Crusade sucked it could have really gone somewhere.