I think she did it partially because of simping for Gabriel and partially wanting her friend back , but when she realises that he doesn't care about her life or Emilie's life as much as he is obsessed with the two superheroes, she then takes off the rose coloured lenses and turns on him. She then tries to form a better connection with Adrien because that's her last link to Emilie and the Gabriel she cared about. She definitely should not have partook in his terrorism or been complicit, but I don't think she had her reasons.
No nathalie and emilie were necmver freinds they always disliked each other just like lila and marinette. Even in this video it says they were best freind no they were not emilie was address best freind but like the mean girls plastics and heathers they often bullied each other both are bad parents.
@@cheyennecedeno6867 As much as I don't want to praise this show. I really enjoy angry Plagg in Passion. And especially in English dub. Max Mittleman went all out!
She has always been shown as someone who actually cares about Adrien but is blinded by her love for Gabe and her desire to bring her friend Emile back. Now she finally understands how crazy Gabe trully is
@@WinxInternational. i mean, with an overprotective millionaire father who terrorize the city on daily basis, i suppse having an assistant who can kick supervillain ass is a basic requirements
Nathalie in S1 is so different from her character over time it almost makes me wonder if at some point she was retconned into being more relevant than she was supposed to be. Because she truly went from being so emotionally detached from everyone (even Gabriel) to suddenly having this close decades long family friendship/relationship. Like NOW she "cares" for Adrien but when it was Adrien's birthday she didn't even get him a gift, she just relabelled Marinette's scarf.
@@billykaplan9915 Literally, have they not watched "The devil wears prada"?? + In s1 they made her do whatever fitted the plot, clearly Astruc didn't have an idea for her yet. She once cared for him (ep.1), then she didn't.
I feel like they invented these old recordings of Emilie just now to justify Nathalie's change, because if the recordings already existed then Nathalie just ignored what Emilie really wanted and continued helping Gabriel even though she was supposedly a great friend to her? If she kept these recordings even though Gabriel asked to get rid of them she would have seen Emilie's messages at some point, right? Make these recordings only created contradictions...
No, the show frames Nathalie as Emily best friend. She followed Gabriel because she thought it would bring back Emily so when Gabriel did not use the rabbit miraculous to bring back Emily, She saw who Gabriel really was, a dumb useless person who did not even thought to use 2nd chance, there weren’t any excuses. We know due to leaks that Gabriel really wants Emily to be brought back to life but Nathalie thought that Gabriel doesn’t love Emily so tries to ruin Gabriel’s plans
They kind of do make a contradiction, yes. They basically create the strong possibility that she simply loved Gabriel more than Emily (and Adrien). That being sad, she might be a bad person, but she def is a great character. I even think they didn't give her enough screentime. Would have been great if Nathalie was to season 5 what Alya was to season 4.
In my opinion....she kept the recording nd everything from the past because she also loved Emily Maybe she was a really great friend to her and so she helped Gabriel regardless of recording because she also wanted her back
If Nathalie is bad person becuz she killed a senti monster, then Shadow Moth is much worse becuz he actively manipulates and destroys and also he uses them as weapons or tools.
@@shoshi5533 exactly and he even uses his own son for his bad deeds....he used to love his son in the beginning but in season 4 and 5 he didn't care about him at all...for him Adrian is just a tool
I feel Nathalies case fits the "Love is blind" kind of trope. I feel like for the first 4 seasons of the show, her love for Gabe made her believe that whatever Nathalie did (helping him in his evil schemes, using the broken miraculous, ignoring Emilies wishes, ...), Gabe would be able to fix things as soon as he has the Ladybug and Black Cat miraculous. Maybe deep down she even thoght that he would leave Emily for her as well, who knows. But now that Gabe has proven to her that he cares more about beating Ladybug then healing her (and Emily) and that she truly believes that nothing can save her anymore, she tries to redeem herself by honoring Emilies wishes Does that excuse her behaviour for the first 4 seasons? Absolutely not. She did some horrible things as Mayura and did barely anything to protect Adrien and his friends from Gabes schemes. Does that mean that she shouldn't be saved? Also no. If she helps to take down Gabe, comforts/helps Adrien when the truth eventualy comes out, somehow helps to fix the mess she and Gabe made (don't know exactly what she needs to do), I feel like she is worth being saved by the heroes.
Its true that: A) This does not dissolve of what She did. B) She herself stated that She would make the wish if She had to as long as Gabriel didnt. But I still believe she is better than Gabriel.
She is a complex character, but if we talk about now and today, I wouldn‘t say she‘s a bad person… I miss her Mayura era, ngl. Season 3 was PEAK regarding her character.
I loved Nathalie being evil for the sake of it! I really don't like Nathalie being a mother figure to Adrien or a good guy in general. She was soooo evil. In my head cannon she had no feelings for Gabriel and was going to overthrow him and become the new Hawkmoth.
Astruc's "make it up as I go along" style of writing hasn't helped this series. It's unlikely he had any of the season 5 revelations in mind prior. Nathalie ultimately comes off as spineless, so it's fitting she's now in that walker suit Bruce Wayne wears in "Kingdom Come" after his spine was broken(definite homage there). The sentimonster concept started out as just a remote control entity but they eventually stole the concept of astral drops & aurameres from W.I.T.C.H. to expand on it. Ladybug's clone "dying" had less impact than when Will's clone died through self-sacrifice because it just happens & they forget about it 2 minutes later. I wonder if the upcoming movie is just an attempt at a canon reboot to fix a lot of the faults that came about from the sloppy writing. 5 seasons to tell a story that really needed one at most.
Even I'm not convinced that Asstruc had anything properly planned prior to S5. The biggest one that gets to me the most being the sentimonster concept. Something that should've been hinted as far back as S2. It shouldn't of taken the amount of Seasons that we have now to all of a sudden have that plotline show up out of the blue.
@@mohabalserafe3795 That's debatable. I think every season has aspects that are good including this season, but the writing really isn't well thought out enough, for a whole season to be considered good imo.
i think the reason she "ignored" the neglect and abuse was because she had no choice. she didnt have the ring that controls adrien til recently so she had no control or way to help him, now she has one of the rings and uses it to counter order and give adrien freedom to do what he wants and even convinces gabriel to be nicer to him and let him do some things. she also realized that they tried to get the miraculous and emilie for so long that it was usless at this point so she no longer has a reason to help gabriel who would also rather see millions of people suffer than actually get his wife back which is proven by the recent episodes
@@samanthahybryds3910 isnt she telling him not to let his father control his life and to persue whoever he wants to and that kinda stuff? she isnt telling him what to do, shes telling him he has freedom to do what he wants to do and hes clearly happy with being able to do the things she says he can so its not a problem and much better than not being allowed to do anything he wants to (this is just my opinion ofc u dont have to agree)
Finally! Someone at least realized this that she is selfish. She just loves Adrien and and maybe Gabriel and is as guilty as hawk moth/shadow moth(but not monarch) and has no care for the people of Paris but she is still one of my favorites and no hate. I believe she will realize her mistakes. She is like sabrina.
Kinda ironic that while not perfect, Chloe actually admitted more of her actions than both Gabriel and Nathalie combined. To think Astruc says she isn't redeemable SMH.
The writers should have given us hints and cues that she cares about Adrien,like trying to make him feel better in her own ways and calls out on Gabriel's actions
When I saw that scene of her telling Gabriel off, I cheered. She became my favourite character. But as the show went on, I began to realise, her not wanting Adrien to be orphaned was just to portray herself as a morally good character, when in reality, she hasn't told on her boss because she knew he would squeel on her and she would die horribly in prison without that top notch medical care.
That's a very shallow way to view her character. She's been shown in her inner thoughts to have developed an attachment to Adrien as he's growing up all the way back in Stormy Weather with her saying "As I watched Adrien grow my affection for him has grown too". Saying that her not wanting Adrien to be orphaned is some sort of *act* to portray herself as a morally good character is a weird way to view her. Idk if that's what you're insinuating here. Sure, the writers don't really put much spotlight on all the motherly things she's done nor shown much of it at all but still. Adrien was willing to get advice from her and vent about his father on things during season 4 and he even said he views her already as a part of the family before so there was obviously something there even if it was offscreen. Again, I don't know if you think the character itself is faking it or if you think the writers aren't convincing you enough that she cares.
@@TrickiTrickstars I never said, she didn't have a bond with Adrien. I've seen those scenes. I'm saying that shes using him as justification for her lack of action. Sure she's more outspoken. But actions speak louder then words. How can I not side eyed her when you think shes finally doing something good and then she backtracks in the episode passion? Its been 5 seasons. Almost 5 seasons was just her simping over her boss so hard, she endangered lives for him. How am I suppose to believe shes still not that selfish, when she still refuses to turn her boss in and continues to partake in terrorism?
@@chachingmel8034 I say it's a matter of patience at this point it seems like her big betrayal is being saved up for a finale especially with the Amelie scenes it seems like large foreshadowing
Yes Nat has made horrible and disgusting mistakes for her "love" of Gabriel. As CATTASTIC KITTY CAT NOIR has all the same for LADYBRAT!! Yet since Nat's beginning in Season 1 (Yes, I'm aware we are in 5 now), I always believed there was more to her characterization. Always felt her as a surrogate mother figure to Adrien. I'm thankful that's something the series actually had made right. Now if they just make Adrigami and Lukanette real, I'm all good. Wishful thinking I know. . . Anyway, Nathalie is one complex character. That I'm glad is finally getting more attention and deeper depth. So in a nutshell, sorry but no. Smarty, she isn't a terrible person.
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDennisFan Indeed, exactly my point. As Kitty be-fur her, both were simps towards their supposed "partners". Yet really it's not shocking once you think about it. This series concept on love is ugly at best.
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDennisFan Very true evermore. Sorry it took me so long to reply, I actually had to look up 'KrazyShipping'. Pokémon has so many ship names it's hard to keep track. Tho yes LOVE/OTPs Pearlshipping: Ash/Dawn, FOREVER!! Contestshipping: Draw/May, adorable and spirited TeenCareshipping: Brock/Holly, so damn underrated. I so wish she wasn't a minor character. Appealshiping (just sisterly, as Kagami/Marinette are): Zoey/Dawn, they needed more moments Orangeshipping: Tracey/Misty. . . I do enjoy Novelshipping: Paul/Misty a little, okay maybe more. RaimonTownShipping: Luke/Bianca, the chemistry was real!! It wasn't all because of his Zorua!! NurseSommelierShipping: Cilan/Layla, horribly unknown it works so damn perfectly. RocketShipping: James/Jessie, as Pearlshipping it needs NO answer!! BunnyScienceShipping: Clemont/Lilia, dorky smarty cuties!!
Thank you! I'm so annoyed with how both the show and fandom (mostly but not all of it of course) treat Nathalie as the good one and Gabriel as the bad one even though they're both morally grey. This development of Nathalie seems nice at first but the more you think about it it feels like an afterthought. Why she always acted cold and distant even if she used to be friends with the Agrestes? Her physical skills were first shown in Felix and never before. Tbf, season 3 feels like a turn around for many characters, like if they changed direction of the show and story Let's not forget that she actively encouraged Gabriel, or insisted on helping him, especially by using Peacock miraculous despite knowing it would lead to her death and despite Gabriel himself begging her not to do it Honestly, I think that something happened, like, they first had planned something different for both Gabe and Nathalie but then changed their minds and changed their characterisation, that's why it feels off. They made Gabriel even worse, completely ruining that "does bad shit because he's emotional wreck but he still cares for his son" and they gave Nathalie more sympathetic stuff, which resulted in kind of polarizing the villain duo Remember when they used to say that Le Paon (the name used by fandom back then) was supposed to be much worse than Hawkmoth? Yeah
I really want Natalie to rebel against Gabriel as she realizes how dumb he is. Then she starts to try and get the two miraculouses herself to save herself. OR She tells everything to Ladybug and Chat Noir and convinces them and Bunnix to fix everything and them they defeat Hawkmoth.
Nathalie is literally the best written character of this show. Love her! Can't wait to see what's next for her! She had her evil moments but I think deep in her heart she's a good person...
I think she was love blind and just wanted the friendship they used to have again. It doesn’t justify her actions but i feel like now she’s starting to understand that what hes doing is wrong and trying to help Adrian have a better life and relationship with his father.
I wonder if she will be the " good holder" of the butterfly after Gabriel and the next hawk moth (probably lila), because that's the only miraculous that doesn''t seem to get one from the friendroup( since only Lila and chloe are left from the class and we don't see any other character really as a part of the group, unless chloe changes and becomes queen bee again and Zoe gets the butterfly)
I'd love to know more about Nathalie's backstory and motives before saying she's flat out evil. I like her change of character and think she can be redeemable
Ngl, she was interesting, but her potential was wasted. The story of her one-sided love to Gabriel was very emotional and touching.....until it wasn't. After a couple of seasons, I just couldn't bring myself to buy it anymore. Nathalie was like an adult version of Mari(who was actively simping for Adrien), but the major difference was: Mari didn't know who Adrien actually liked(well, she never asked him), so Mari believing that she still has a chance with him was realistic enough. But Nathalie was a grown up, who knew for sure that Gabriel was still in love with another person. She didn't try to help him move on and become happier, explaining him that his actions were self-distructive and that Emilie wouldn't be happy about what he's become either. She just enables him. That's what makes her whole "unhappy love" bs questionable at best.
Thanks for saying this. I knew there was a reason why I can't get fully behind Nathalie even after some good moments. I still remember how she was in the past with Adrien and how she was fully for Gabe hurting people and hurting Adrien. Her love for Gabe doesn't make it ok to let him do terrible things. Her turning moment doesn't make her look better either. She turned against Gabe because chance of her getting healthy again was lost, not because she realized Gabe is messed up mentally. If they wanted to make it turning point then she needed some questioning moments before plan with rabbit miraculous. Now she wants to make a wish KNOWING that she would kill literally everyone on the planet just to make world how she wants instead. She is literally playing God and that's horrible. She should try helping Ladybug and Chat noir by literally telling them who Monarch is and that's it. Instead she wants power for herself. She doesn't even have good motive and still wants to murder people just to save herself. I don't really want her to adopt Adrien or something if Gabe will die. Of all people only Gorilla should adopt Adrien. He isn't a man of many words but all his actions shows that he cares about Adrien to point that even if he does what Gabriel wants, he still bends rules to help Adrien. Gabe and Nathalie are too far gone. They belong behind bars.
I feel they wasted the redemption arc on Natalie and not give it to Chloe simply because they see Gabe's assistant as more redeemable than the typical school bully. This show is incompetent and I'll be thankful when it finally ends
When Nathalie first became the peacock, she WILLINGLY used the miraculous which she KNEW was BROKEN and the reason Emily is "dead". Her poor health is both thier faults. Now Gabe could have tried to stopped her, but Nathalie is the brains of the operation so she would have found another way to help him. Plus we don't know how long she's been with the family, specifically how long she's had residence at the house. Gabe HID the his stuff pertaining to the miraculous and she knew how to get to them. Seeing as she knew about Gabe's side gig he probably told her maybe for emergency. She probably knows the manor like the back of her hand or could just had the security system to look around. I'm not defending either party, but to put it simply (and probably in poor taste) SHE made her bed and now she's lying in it. Being the more "sane" of the two she could have stopped any time, I mean she stood idley by in the earlier seasons so what was the problem now? Both villians are smooth brains, but like S.P. said Gabe is going through some hard times while she's was just simping. Love make us do crazy things and you truely love someone you want to do everything in your power to help. The first time Nathalie transformed was a moment of panic and weakness, but after both "adults" knew better and chose to ignore the warning. Basically they fucked up and now she can't admit her fault. Yeah Gabe has gotten worse, but at least in earlier seasons the gave him moments. I kinda feel like she's taking her anger out on Gabe and spiting him by being a "mother figure". The both suck and hope there's an episode where Emily's ghost of an illusion tells them they suck.
Imo both Gabe and Natalie are banking on the lucky charm. Either they get the miraculous and use it or she keeps it and uses the charm. There's nothing in the early seasons suggesting any different, only in s5 with gabe staying cataclysmed, which is also around the time Natalie changes her stance on helping Gabe and the one time she does get akumatized she's way more surgical in her attack. She didn't mention any of that tho and doesn't seem to have thought abt it at all so that's just reaching hard to white knight for her
I can’t forgive her for what she did in cat blanc, I also will never forgive Gabriel for what he did in cat blanc ether and that’s when I started hating him to the core
I do see the issues with Nathalie and I agree her transition is sloppily written, but I can sort of see why she "turned" on Gabriel. The events of Evolution were the straws that broke the camel's back in part, but also there was a distinction from previous failures. In all the other failures thus far, she has seen or at least known about how Ladybug thwarted his plans. For whatever reason, Gabriel can't beat Ladybug. So Nathalie gives him an alternate plan that *doesn't involve Ladybug.* We have seen in the past that those sometimes *do* work. While it is a little presumptive of Nathalie to assume Gabriel messed up (for all she knows, Ladybug could have forcibly prevented him from interfering in the past), it's reasonable to assume that he let his obsession prevent him following a plan that would have achieved what he wanted. Before they both had the excuse that Ladybug was an obstacle, but given that Gabriel had a clear cut chance to achieve his goal but threw it away, it meant that at this point, he's no longer caring about the same goal she wanted (bringing Emilie back) but wants to defeat Ladybug more than anything else. I do think in her case, her having to live with what she did would be punishment enough.
You're right about all of this I used to like Natalie but you opened up my eyes Natalie deserves no sympathy and no one should ever forget what she willingly did. She's a grown woman not a child, she doesn't and never will have an excuse
I forgive the writers in season 1-3 and how Nathalie was written she probably didn't have much of an arch planned and originally they needed to follow certain guidelines to appeal to a certain audience and allow certain companies within the production and airing of the show so it more had to appeal to kids
i love nathalie, and frankly i just think she’s simply a victim of bad writing. they didn’t really know what to do with her until later on so her characterisation is so sporadic throughout the seasons. But i think in regards to s5, beforehand she was always confident that gabriel would win, which is why she continued to aid and abet him, and therefore she believed that once gabriel won, the world would start from scratch and all adrien’s previous trauma would be null and void in this new world. Now that Nathalie realised that the chances of him winning and slim to none, she’s probably come to the conclusion that she’d best make do with the adrien she has now (lol).
In defense of season 1-3 Nathalie, in season one, Nathalie was more afraid of making Gabriel mad at her than in season 3, 4, and 5. She is kinda selfish though (only selfless to those they care about idk the term), caring more about those that she lets her guard down to than innocent civilians. Probably why her last name is a play on words for heartless in French. There's only a few people she has strong connections to and she is shown to try not to get too attached to people (season 1 Nathalie is proof of this). Stormy Weather 2 is the episode where we see Nathalie's internal thoughts in those thoughts we see she's getting sadder about Emilie's "disappearence" and "the deeper she got in her sleep, my sadness for her deepened too". She's coping with loss as well as Gabriel and Adrien. This episode is the first episode in which we hear that Nathalie developed feelings for Gabriel. A theory I have is she fell out of love with Gabriel at one point but then fell back in love after seeing how dedicated he is to his family and how willing he is to do anything for his wife. I suggest re-watching the scenes specifically with Nathalie in Stormy Weather 2. Nathalie was shown to be disappointed and in despair when Gabriel decided to get back to akumatising people (closing the door as her head pushed against the door) The same episode she tells him he took a huge risk regarding Adrien in a video call. Nathalie at this point isn't as emotionally attatched to Adrien but manages to confront him about the risk Gabriel took. She is still not that confrontational and avoids getting in his bad graces. Nathalie as Mayura is just not it and I don't like how the new game percieves her either. like cmon "I did it all for you, you know" that's too much simping for me. it would have been way more interesting if she was ALSO coping about Emilie's loss heck maybe be the reason as to why she's not as expressive or something like somewhat of a contrast to Gabe! I love the idealized version of Nathalie in my head more than how the show percieved her. Season 5 is peak Nathalie for me. Loved what they could've done for nathalie to develope into season 5 more than what is canon. I was interested in Nathalie very early on in the series and grew attached to her character I was one of the people that liked her simping stage but as I grew up I grew a distaste for it and started to think maybe Gabe was leading her on like cmon that video game flashback scene he litterally said "as a display of my... affection" litterally leading her on not even correcting her when she started speculating what the status of their relationship is. Now I want her to be part of Adrien's family but definetly not with Gabriel (lol Go date Emilie when she comes back or something)
@@yasir_12345 Ye, It's kinda hyperbolic to say Nathalie is worse than Gabriel knowing he's the one submerging into his insane arc and Nathalie is the one snapping out of it and realizing she did something wrong by supporting him. She expressed she believes she's powerless and has no choice before, a moral responsibility as you will. Gabriel often weaponizes the fact that he's the father and he's the one that should be making decisions for his own good as far back as the episode Oni-chan! Nathalie has expressed genuine fear of what he was going to do during the flashback in the videogame which takes place the night before his first akumatisation. Nathalie was most definitely not the confident woman we see in season 5. Season 3 is when she really started testing her astray from obedience and the reaction was softer than season 1 from Gabriel. Gabriel isn't screaming at her like the beginning seasons and is actually talking to her as an equal even showing her through his own body language.
The writing of this show is all over the place...if your fans can predict your biggest plot twist then it means the journey has been boring and predictable...like a dad promising to take his kids to Disney World and then turning around and taking them to the grocery store. Sadly snticlimatic.
Gabriel never loved his family for eho they are. He only loved his idealized version of his family. He doesn't even love his son. He only loves the perfect idea of a son. And he definitely didn't love Emilie. He only loved what she could provide for her. He was never a nice person.
Agreed, Nathalie sucks. Possibly the worst thing she did was using the peacock miraculous knowing what it could do to her, meaning she knew that if Gabriel doesn't get his wish, she would die and Adrien would have no one to protect him from Gabe. Her redemption arc demonstrates an ongoing problem in Miraculous which is the writers don't seem to understand the gravity of what they wrote into Adrien's story i.e literal child abuse and neglect.
He would wake up mate. Probably get her in trouble when he gets up. Frame her as the villain. And probably he sleeps in his own room with a lock duh 🙄🙄🙄...
I agree other than occasionally being a little nice to Adrien she just never helped him she never tried to convince Gabriel to spend time with his son even though she had power to do so. Like in one episode in which it was Adrien's birthday and marinette gave him a present Natalie gave that present to Adrien saying it was Gabe who prepared it she did that out of pity for Adrien and it looked like she cared for him when she could have just asked Gabriel to pay more attention to his son this whole time??
I wonder, if Natalie only used the peacock once, how long would she have had before getting seriously sick? Adrien lived with his mom for 14-16 years and the way talked about Natalie getting sick, it would seem he knew his mom before she started showing symptoms.
The fact that Gabe is somehow more justifiable (though still very much in the wrong) than Natalie speaks volumes of both her character and the show's writing
Kind of interesting how the characterization in Miraculous tends to go. A character like Natalie could be a lot of things of course, but I think what the creators (and fans to some extent) wanted her to be was a more morally grey character who is motivated mainly by love for Adrien, Gabe, and Emily, but ends up hurting them, herself, and Paris along the way. But how she is in the show ends up being confusing and doesn't feel like a real person. Which is rooted in the Gabe Problem, but, ya know. I feel like a character like this would feel more real/relatable or more constructive to the story goals if they gave you more insight. Is the absuive nature of Gabe's relationship with her and Adrien, multiplied with the loss of Emily and the temptation/hope of the Miraculous powers what makes her judgement poor? Does she do things to protect others, mainly herself and Adrien, but only obstructs Gabe if he is clearly going against her protection? I.e she thinks she can protect everyone, including Gabe, only if she stays as his right hand? Or is she just like Gabe, willing to throw away almost anything (particularly when it's not related to her) to achieve their goals? Are they bothe being corrupted by the power they have obtained? Or the broken Peacock Miraculous? An interesting one could also be the idea that Emily was the one holding together the broken relationships forming around Gabe, herself, her family, and Natalie, but when she died it was already messed up and too late, because Gabe had already become abusive and needed more than her to fix it, and losing her made it worse. As a viewer you might be able to see snippets of parts of these ideas being true, but with how the writing tends to flip quickly between story goals and character motivations, it's almost impossible to say what they really wanted to say with her. While I might prefer a more complicated Natalie, one intwined with the other characters and who does terrible things but in a way that viewers can understand what's going on and relate but still believe to be wrong, there's nothing wrong with her being a simpler character. Being stereotypically evil or writers not showing motivations isn't inherently bad. But it always seems like the writers want it both ways, and execute it in a way where they get neither.
This realization also make her whole buying Adrien the sane gift every year worse. Like she should have taken the time to get him something he likes since she cares so much
she wasn't as attached to Adrien at the beginning of the series it was more of a development thing they had going for her. (Stormy Weather 2 told us through her inner thoughts that she was starting to grow more attached to Adrien as he grew.) Also, Nathalie was hired after Emilie's death which is the span of one year. Gabriel was the one getting Adrien the same gift every year. Nathalie wasn't even present in the Agreste household for more than one birthday.
Through Passion, I’d definitely agree with you. But since then, I think she’s a lot like Felix. Confused, deeply flawed but more neutral than truly bad or evil
I feel that Natalie was complicit to all of Gabe's schemes because she possibly convinced herself that he was doing it out of love; which would blur the line of moral and immoral behaviour. This happens all the time in real life. People murder others who mess with the people they care about. And at this point, it is believed that Gabe was also convincing himself that he was doing it out of love. Only when Gabriel finally loses the last of his marbles and risks Natelies life, does she realizes that he is not doing it out of love. But that he is doing it out of madness. Again, humans aren't perfect. I love how the show portrays that. It if refreshing to watch a show where they put on display the grey areas in life and decision-making.
She loves/loved Gabriel but she also cares for her friend. It feels like she helped Gabe because she's a simp but also because she believed this would bring back Emily but she realized that his stupidity and pride got the best of him when the reward was in front of him. I do agree though, she went pretty far when she was helping Gabriel and bringing the recordings up bring up some contradictions but i do think that it also shows that she still cared for Emily and thought that she was doing things to bring her back and maybe she thought caring for her family was to help Gabriel but it's pretty sh!t that she didn't realize that it came at the neglect of Adrian.
Yes, she is a terrible person, but a great character. Yes, she did many horrible things, on the same level if not worse than Gabe is. But she has progress as a character. She went from just a side character, to a full villain, to someone who realized what she did was a mistake and tried to do whats right. I mean, come on, name another character in the show that has progression other than her and Kagami?
I do want to point out the fact/defend Natalie, on the fact on why she is turning on gabe, I don't think she is turning on have because he made her illness permanent The reason why I say that is because, before the end of season 4. They didn't have all the miraculous, only the butterfly and the peacock and they was always losing. Natalie knowing she is on the losing team, willing let herself get an illness to help gave, as far as we know, she is unable to predict the future. So my point is that she was giving herself this deadly illness with the only hope of salvation that maybe gabe can get the two miraculous! She had no way of knowing that gabe would get the rabbit miraculous and have the ability to reverse this. Also he was clearly losing before the end of season 4. So from her point of view, she was willing giving herself an illness knowing or thinking their wouldn't be a cure all to help gabe. So my whole point is, that I think Natalie turn against gabe is more selfless then we want to give her credit, I think she genuinely is fed up with gabe and it's not as selfish as, because of gabe, she is stuck with an incurable illness. Because like I been saying, when she gave herself the illness, she did so knowingly that their wouldn't be a cure!
I think we all forget something Natalie is still an employee the dynamic between her and Gabriel is not equal cause he can still fire her if she steps out of line and basically it feels more like they’re holding each other at gun point because if one squeals the other goes down too and they both go to prison likely die and Adrien has no one things were so simple before how the fuck have things gotten so complicated it feels like the writers are just making shit up as they go along
Huh. Pardon if this is an unpopular take, but I feel like a character being a bad guy is not an excuse to write them poorly. And if they just forget that she was a bad guy, that will be disappointing.
lol Gabriel died and Nathalie experienced death and then revival. Lila can use the truth about what happened as blackmail against ladybug or Nathalie at any time. It'd be ironic for a liar to be the one that reveals the harsh truth. ;)
At this point, most people don't know how the season will end. And I say most because with the leaks things have gone wild, to say the least. Now, apparently and from what I've heard, Gloob has some sort of last word of how the episodes are written, since they put a lot of money on the show. And with how the situation in Brazil is/was, i remember that showing Gabriel or Nathalie being arrested was sort of out of the question. However, I am still curious on what the consequences for these will be. Because, Gabriel is the mastermind (not to mention that if his identity is publicly revealed, he would also be charged for almost starting a WW3), Nathalie and Tomoe are accomplices. And who knows who else in France is involved. But also, Felix can be cataloged as an accomplice for having stolen the miraculous. And for all he did in emotion. And then there we have his mom. Who is keeping the secret of Felix as well.
I mean, I understand that yes, Nathalie has done awful things in the past, and her present behavior doesn’t excuse her previous actions. But at the same time, I feel that she might have also been overwhelmed by grief, like Gabriel, and at the same time developed feelings for him (for some reason). Thus, it kinda led her to also be a terrible person like Gabriel. But I think at the same time, that her “redemption” wasn’t terrible either. She came to her senses after realizing Gabriel really is an idiot, and while yes, it can be justified that she only starts being better after realizing that Gabriel doomed her, but at the same time it also made her realize that she doesn’t have much time left and she regrets all those times that she also helped Gabriel neglect Adrien, something Gabriel is clearly beyond the point of feeling. Also, I kind of feel that her “redemption” needed to happen this season as well if Adrien were to pursue a relationship with Marinette. We’ve seen previously that Gabriel has tried to separate them in the hopes of getting to Marinette and akumatizing her, leading to Cat Blanc, and a major reason the events of all that happened was because Nathalie went a long with the plan and revealed Adrien's identity to Gabriel. But now, even if Gabriel wants to do something against their relationship, the most he can do is separate them physically but can’t force them to actually break up because Nathalie would be against it.
Agreed. Nathalie also has to be instrumental in allowing Adrien and Marinette in pursuing a relationship when you consider that she initially sabotaged the relationship by taking Marinette's gift and presenting it to Adrien as though it was from his father. While her intent might not have been to separate the two, she did and it would make narrative sense if she evolved to a place where she made up for that error.
Natalie snaped when Gabriel messed up time travel thing by going after Ladybug and Cat Noir and failed at bringing Emily back. Which is i think the most problematic part of her: She doesn't think that him not accepting that his wife died is crazy. She just said that he's now obsessed with beating Ladybug and Cat Noir, that's the reason she thinks he's crazy and obsessed. She doesn't think endangering people, including Adrien, is bad. I don't see her as a reformed character at all. Maybe she stoped helping Gabriel in a way, but she's still not a good person at all.
Huh, fair and valid points and opinions, i guess when putting everything through the entire Show into perspective, it does kind of make Nathalie’s supposed redemption fall a little flat, huh? It’s a shame really, especially when considering that the reason for this is mostly because they didn’t have everything figured out with the Characters as the Show has gone on. Still, we could still be surprised, i guess we’ll see.
I don't think she is terrible. She just care who she love, but she is not selfish becouse she helped Gabriel when she was sick. She is definietly not selfiss. Maybe, she did some evil thing, but becouse she wanted them happy. And in the season 5 she realized what Gabriel doing is wrong and Adrien and Nathalies relatonship is grow now. She didn't let Gabriel treat his son a lot, and remember, she was the person who talked to Gabriel to let Adrien go to school. She cares Adrien because she loves Adrien. I love the way Adren and Nathalie relatonship in the s5 and I don't think Nathalie is a very bad person. Gabriel is the evil , but Nathalie realized the bad thing what he do, and she tries to stop him, to protect Adrien. She really cares Adrien. So I don't agree with you.
Everyone that gets the peacock miraculous is a morally grey character that has done absolutely bad shit makes me wonder if that pattern will also go into Emilie. 😭
I have an Episode idea how about there is a Episode where it takes place before Emélie Disappeared so we could get a Adrien Based Episode or maybe even Flashbacks Adrien talking to Plagg about his Mother or something like that and while we're at it way not a Episode before Marinette were Ladybug to how she was like before and why she is the way she is now some backstory
😅 no I think you're spot-on like her and Gabriel really didn't get their just reward honestly they were like forgiven by the end and that's not okay that's not fair that's just bowl honestly I would love to see them get their just deserts but no we have to go to the bad ending and make it all turn out okay for everybody even though they don't deserve it
I agree I got upset with them trying to course correct with her. It's annoying like she being aggressive to Gabe I am like ok but he could fire you at anytime. Like where this even coming from, like she gaslighting. I never saw it like oh she such a good person just like really. It doesn't make much sense with the added information we get
Honestly I always thought she went along with what Gabriel did not just cus she liked him, but she honestly hoped that things would be back to normal when Emily came back. And I don’t think she’s completely a bad person, she had a few good moments
I think she did it partially because of simping for Gabriel and partially wanting her friend back , but when she realises that he doesn't care about her life or Emilie's life as much as he is obsessed with the two superheroes, she then takes off the rose coloured lenses and turns on him. She then tries to form a better connection with Adrien because that's her last link to Emilie and the Gabriel she cared about. She definitely should not have partook in his terrorism or been complicit, but I don't think she had her reasons.
But she don't care about the people of paris
@@BabitaKumari-hk9ci yeah, she's still a terrorist, but it's not like she did it for no reason (even though it's not a justifiable one)
I also feel that it was her love for Gabriel and wanting to make him happy. And yes, also wanting her friend back.
No nathalie and emilie were necmver freinds they always disliked each other just like lila and marinette. Even in this video it says they were best freind no they were not emilie was address best freind but like the mean girls plastics and heathers they often bullied each other both are bad parents.
@@linzainib7441 If you've seen Passion she does want her friend back.
I’m surprised more people don’t talk about how Natalie’s indiana jones backstory comes right the hell out of nowhere
As basically everything that happens in this series? Truly coming out of nowhere. Many characters' back stories are all the same. . .
@@cheyennecedeno6867 As much as I don't want to praise this show. I really enjoy angry Plagg in Passion. And especially in English dub. Max Mittleman went all out!
She has always been shown as someone who actually cares about Adrien but is blinded by her love for Gabe and her desire to bring her friend Emile back. Now she finally understands how crazy Gabe trully is
@@WinxInternational. i mean, with an overprotective millionaire father who terrorize the city on daily basis, i suppse having an assistant who can kick supervillain ass is a basic requirements
It's miraculous stuff coming out of nowhere is basically Tuesday
Nathalie in S1 is so different from her character over time it almost makes me wonder if at some point she was retconned into being more relevant than she was supposed to be. Because she truly went from being so emotionally detached from everyone (even Gabriel) to suddenly having this close decades long family friendship/relationship.
Like NOW she "cares" for Adrien but when it was Adrien's birthday she didn't even get him a gift, she just relabelled Marinette's scarf.
Being a secretary for a rich man is hard dude poor woman isn't a machine
@@billykaplan9915 She isn't but she acted like one in S1? Am I wrong?? Idk. She had no personality.
@@Abielle because she wasn't that flesh out until season 2 where we get to know her better but work with Gabe require to be a machine
@@billykaplan9915 Literally, have they not watched "The devil wears prada"?? + In s1 they made her do whatever fitted the plot, clearly Astruc didn't have an idea for her yet. She once cared for him (ep.1), then she didn't.
I feel like they invented these old recordings of Emilie just now to justify Nathalie's change, because if the recordings already existed then Nathalie just ignored what Emilie really wanted and continued helping Gabriel even though she was supposedly a great friend to her? If she kept these recordings even though Gabriel asked to get rid of them she would have seen Emilie's messages at some point, right? Make these recordings only created contradictions...
No, the show frames Nathalie as Emily best friend. She followed Gabriel because she thought it would bring back Emily so when Gabriel did not use the rabbit miraculous to bring back Emily, She saw who Gabriel really was, a dumb useless person who did not even thought to use 2nd chance, there weren’t any excuses. We know due to leaks that Gabriel really wants Emily to be brought back to life but Nathalie thought that Gabriel doesn’t love Emily so tries to ruin Gabriel’s plans
They kind of do make a contradiction, yes. They basically create the strong possibility that she simply loved Gabriel more than Emily (and Adrien).
That being sad, she might be a bad person, but she def is a great character. I even think they didn't give her enough screentime. Would have been great if Nathalie was to season 5 what Alya was to season 4.
In my opinion....she kept the recording nd everything from the past because she also loved Emily Maybe she was a really great friend to her and so she helped Gabriel regardless of recording because she also wanted her back
If Nathalie is bad person becuz she killed a senti monster, then Shadow Moth is much worse becuz he actively manipulates and destroys and also he uses them as weapons or tools.
@@shoshi5533 exactly and he even uses his own son for his bad deeds....he used to love his son in the beginning but in season 4 and 5 he didn't care about him at all...for him Adrian is just a tool
I feel Nathalies case fits the "Love is blind" kind of trope. I feel like for the first 4 seasons of the show, her love for Gabe made her believe that whatever Nathalie did (helping him in his evil schemes, using the broken miraculous, ignoring Emilies wishes, ...), Gabe would be able to fix things as soon as he has the Ladybug and Black Cat miraculous. Maybe deep down she even thoght that he would leave Emily for her as well, who knows. But now that Gabe has proven to her that he cares more about beating Ladybug then healing her (and Emily) and that she truly believes that nothing can save her anymore, she tries to redeem herself by honoring Emilies wishes
Does that excuse her behaviour for the first 4 seasons? Absolutely not. She did some horrible things as Mayura and did barely anything to protect Adrien and his friends from Gabes schemes.
Does that mean that she shouldn't be saved? Also no. If she helps to take down Gabe, comforts/helps Adrien when the truth eventualy comes out, somehow helps to fix the mess she and Gabe made (don't know exactly what she needs to do), I feel like she is worth being saved by the heroes.
Yeah she has shown more attention to Adrian then Gabe did that's how Adrian couldn't risk seeing her die in passion
@@virnalassiter382 agreed
Its true that:
A) This does not dissolve of what She did.
B) She herself stated that She would make the wish if She had to as long as Gabriel didnt.
But I still believe she is better than Gabriel.
She didn't said she would make the wish herself she said she would take the miraculous before him and she won't let him create a world of his madness
@@pablorazv21 that basically means the same thing, but not as bluntly.
She is a complex character, but if we talk about now and today, I wouldn‘t say she‘s a bad person…
I miss her Mayura era, ngl. Season 3 was PEAK regarding her character.
Her simping for Gabriel is not good! Gabenath era was the worst thing for Natalie!
I love Mayura but I'm not a fan of the simping as much compared to everything else she had going on.
@@emphobia2268 Exactly!
I loved Nathalie being evil for the sake of it! I really don't like Nathalie being a mother figure to Adrien or a good guy in general. She was soooo evil. In my head cannon she had no feelings for Gabriel and was going to overthrow him and become the new Hawkmoth.
Agreed
Astruc's "make it up as I go along" style of writing hasn't helped this series. It's unlikely he had any of the season 5 revelations in mind prior. Nathalie ultimately comes off as spineless, so it's fitting she's now in that walker suit Bruce Wayne wears in "Kingdom Come" after his spine was broken(definite homage there).
The sentimonster concept started out as just a remote control entity but they eventually stole the concept of astral drops & aurameres from W.I.T.C.H. to expand on it. Ladybug's clone "dying" had less impact than when Will's clone died through self-sacrifice because it just happens & they forget about it 2 minutes later.
I wonder if the upcoming movie is just an attempt at a canon reboot to fix a lot of the faults that came about from the sloppy writing. 5 seasons to tell a story that really needed one at most.
Even I'm not convinced that Asstruc had anything properly planned prior to S5. The biggest one that gets to me the most being the sentimonster concept. Something that should've been hinted as far back as S2. It shouldn't of taken the amount of Seasons that we have now to all of a sudden have that plotline show up out of the blue.
Thank you! I completely agree! Lmaooo this whole season alone has had the most asspulls by far, just totally making shit up as they go 😭💀
whos will ?
@@esayem7746 at least it's much better than the past seasons by far
@@mohabalserafe3795 That's debatable. I think every season has aspects that are good including this season, but the writing really isn't well thought out enough, for a whole season to be considered good imo.
i think the reason she "ignored" the neglect and abuse was because she had no choice. she didnt have the ring that controls adrien til recently so she had no control or way to help him, now she has one of the rings and uses it to counter order and give adrien freedom to do what he wants and even convinces gabriel to be nicer to him and let him do some things. she also realized that they tried to get the miraculous and emilie for so long that it was usless at this point so she no longer has a reason to help gabriel who would also rather see millions of people suffer than actually get his wife back which is proven by the recent episodes
I mean, she's still using the ring to give Adrien orders, they're just framed as better because they go against Gabriel's.
@@samanthahybryds3910 isnt she telling him not to let his father control his life and to persue whoever he wants to and that kinda stuff? she isnt telling him what to do, shes telling him he has freedom to do what he wants to do and hes clearly happy with being able to do the things she says he can so its not a problem and much better than not being allowed to do anything he wants to
(this is just my opinion ofc u dont have to agree)
Finally! Someone at least realized this that she is selfish. She just loves Adrien and and maybe Gabriel and is as guilty as hawk moth/shadow moth(but not monarch) and has no care for the people of Paris but she is still one of my favorites and no hate. I believe she will realize her mistakes. She is like sabrina.
Yeah and ladybug's insecure personality pretty much grew as she is able to find true love
@@virnalassiter382 yeah I love she is now able to say whatever she wants as shown emotion
Kinda ironic that while not perfect, Chloe actually admitted more of her actions than both Gabriel and Nathalie combined. To think Astruc says she isn't redeemable SMH.
How does she reazlie that in emotion?
@@DarkEmissary617Chloe deserves to be part of a better show.
The writers should have given us hints and cues that she cares about Adrien,like trying to make him feel better in her own ways and calls out on Gabriel's actions
When I saw that scene of her telling Gabriel off, I cheered. She became my favourite character. But as the show went on, I began to realise, her not wanting Adrien to be orphaned was just to portray herself as a morally good character, when in reality, she hasn't told on her boss because she knew he would squeel on her and she would die horribly in prison without that top notch medical care.
That's a very shallow way to view her character. She's been shown in her inner thoughts to have developed an attachment to Adrien as he's growing up all the way back in Stormy Weather with her saying "As I watched Adrien grow my affection for him has grown too". Saying that her not wanting Adrien to be orphaned is some sort of *act* to portray herself as a morally good character is a weird way to view her. Idk if that's what you're insinuating here. Sure, the writers don't really put much spotlight on all the motherly things she's done nor shown much of it at all but still. Adrien was willing to get advice from her and vent about his father on things during season 4 and he even said he views her already as a part of the family before so there was obviously something there even if it was offscreen. Again, I don't know if you think the character itself is faking it or if you think the writers aren't convincing you enough that she cares.
@@TrickiTrickstars I never said, she didn't have a bond with Adrien. I've seen those scenes. I'm saying that shes using him as justification for her lack of action. Sure she's more outspoken. But actions speak louder then words. How can I not side eyed her when you think shes finally doing something good and then she backtracks in the episode passion? Its been 5 seasons. Almost 5 seasons was just her simping over her boss so hard, she endangered lives for him. How am I suppose to believe shes still not that selfish, when she still refuses to turn her boss in and continues to partake in terrorism?
@@chachingmel8034 I say it's a matter of patience at this point it seems like her big betrayal is being saved up for a finale especially with the Amelie scenes it seems like large foreshadowing
Yes Nat has made horrible and disgusting mistakes for her "love" of Gabriel. As CATTASTIC KITTY CAT NOIR has all the same for LADYBRAT!! Yet since Nat's beginning in Season 1 (Yes, I'm aware we are in 5 now), I always believed there was more to her characterization. Always felt her as a surrogate mother figure to Adrien. I'm thankful that's something the series actually had made right. Now if they just make Adrigami and Lukanette real, I'm all good. Wishful thinking I know. . .
Anyway, Nathalie is one complex character. That I'm glad is finally getting more attention and deeper depth. So in a nutshell, sorry but no. Smarty, she isn't a terrible person.
Natalie was definitely worse when she was in love with Gabriel. Thankfully she's not anymore. Gabenath is dead. Good riddance!
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDennisFan
Indeed, exactly my point. As Kitty be-fur her, both were simps towards their supposed "partners". Yet really it's not shocking once you think about it. This series concept on love is ugly at best.
@@cheyennecedeno6867 True. Probably why I trust pokemon ships more. Like Rocketshipping, krazyshipping ect.
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDennisFan
Very true evermore. Sorry it took me so long to reply, I actually had to look up 'KrazyShipping'. Pokémon has so many ship names it's hard to keep track.
Tho yes LOVE/OTPs
Pearlshipping: Ash/Dawn, FOREVER!!
Contestshipping: Draw/May, adorable and spirited
TeenCareshipping: Brock/Holly, so damn underrated. I so wish she wasn't a minor character.
Appealshiping (just sisterly, as Kagami/Marinette are): Zoey/Dawn, they needed more moments
Orangeshipping: Tracey/Misty. . . I do enjoy Novelshipping: Paul/Misty a little, okay maybe more.
RaimonTownShipping: Luke/Bianca, the chemistry was real!! It wasn't all because of his Zorua!!
NurseSommelierShipping: Cilan/Layla, horribly unknown it works so damn perfectly.
RocketShipping: James/Jessie, as Pearlshipping it needs NO answer!!
BunnyScienceShipping: Clemont/Lilia, dorky smarty cuties!!
@Miraculous Storybug
Fair points, all around. thanks for the 'Sis' remark. Many mistake me for a guy. 😻😻🌸🌸
Thank you! I'm so annoyed with how both the show and fandom (mostly but not all of it of course) treat Nathalie as the good one and Gabriel as the bad one even though they're both morally grey. This development of Nathalie seems nice at first but the more you think about it it feels like an afterthought. Why she always acted cold and distant even if she used to be friends with the Agrestes? Her physical skills were first shown in Felix and never before. Tbf, season 3 feels like a turn around for many characters, like if they changed direction of the show and story
Let's not forget that she actively encouraged Gabriel, or insisted on helping him, especially by using Peacock miraculous despite knowing it would lead to her death and despite Gabriel himself begging her not to do it
Honestly, I think that something happened, like, they first had planned something different for both Gabe and Nathalie but then changed their minds and changed their characterisation, that's why it feels off. They made Gabriel even worse, completely ruining that "does bad shit because he's emotional wreck but he still cares for his son" and they gave Nathalie more sympathetic stuff, which resulted in kind of polarizing the villain duo
Remember when they used to say that Le Paon (the name used by fandom back then) was supposed to be much worse than Hawkmoth? Yeah
I really want Natalie to rebel against Gabriel as she realizes how dumb he is. Then she starts to try and get the two miraculouses herself to save herself.
OR
She tells everything to Ladybug and Chat Noir and convinces them and Bunnix to fix everything and them they defeat Hawkmoth.
Let's be honest. The legit good Adult in Adrian's life Is La Gorille. It's True and really sad.
Nathalie could put an end to all this nonsense by just telling the cops about Monarch's identity. Why is she still going along with Gabriel's plans?
I still love Nathalie, she is one of my favorite characters)
Same
@@johay899 me too
yes. She's awesome.
She is my fav character!!!
Honestly, I think the show is overall lousy with the writing with the villains.
I think killing Sentibug was justifiable. If she kept her, she'd help Ladybug and Chat Noir help defeat Hawkmoth.
It's the fact that she had no remorse nor hesitation
I don't think Adrien is a sentimonster
It's just a theory but not fully confirmed
that doesn't give you a right to kill someone.
Nathalie is literally the best written character of this show. Love her!
Can't wait to see what's next for her!
She had her evil moments but I think deep in her heart she's a good person...
Same
Probably death :(
I also think so too. Ps. She also got her punishment for the bad things she did .
i agree!!
Such as getting ill
i like Nathalie she is one of my favourite characters
I think she was love blind and just wanted the friendship they used to have again. It doesn’t justify her actions but i feel like now she’s starting to understand that what hes doing is wrong and trying to help Adrian have a better life and relationship with his father.
I wonder if she will be the " good holder" of the butterfly after Gabriel and the next hawk moth (probably lila), because that's the only miraculous that doesn''t seem to get one from the friendroup( since only Lila and chloe are left from the class and we don't see any other character really as a part of the group, unless chloe changes and becomes queen bee again and Zoe gets the butterfly)
thomas hates chloe too much to redeem her lol /nm
I'd love to know more about Nathalie's backstory and motives before saying she's flat out evil. I like her change of character and think she can be redeemable
Ngl, she was interesting, but her potential was wasted. The story of her one-sided love to Gabriel was very emotional and touching.....until it wasn't. After a couple of seasons, I just couldn't bring myself to buy it anymore. Nathalie was like an adult version of Mari(who was actively simping for Adrien), but the major difference was: Mari didn't know who Adrien actually liked(well, she never asked him), so Mari believing that she still has a chance with him was realistic enough. But Nathalie was a grown up, who knew for sure that Gabriel was still in love with another person. She didn't try to help him move on and become happier, explaining him that his actions were self-distructive and that Emilie wouldn't be happy about what he's become either. She just enables him. That's what makes her whole "unhappy love" bs questionable at best.
Thanks for saying this. I knew there was a reason why I can't get fully behind Nathalie even after some good moments. I still remember how she was in the past with Adrien and how she was fully for Gabe hurting people and hurting Adrien. Her love for Gabe doesn't make it ok to let him do terrible things. Her turning moment doesn't make her look better either. She turned against Gabe because chance of her getting healthy again was lost, not because she realized Gabe is messed up mentally. If they wanted to make it turning point then she needed some questioning moments before plan with rabbit miraculous. Now she wants to make a wish KNOWING that she would kill literally everyone on the planet just to make world how she wants instead. She is literally playing God and that's horrible. She should try helping Ladybug and Chat noir by literally telling them who Monarch is and that's it. Instead she wants power for herself. She doesn't even have good motive and still wants to murder people just to save herself. I don't really want her to adopt Adrien or something if Gabe will die. Of all people only Gorilla should adopt Adrien. He isn't a man of many words but all his actions shows that he cares about Adrien to point that even if he does what Gabriel wants, he still bends rules to help Adrien. Gabe and Nathalie are too far gone. They belong behind bars.
💯 agree with you that gorilla should be the only parent. And Natalie was a ride or die till the die part came.
I feel they wasted the redemption arc on Natalie and not give it to Chloe simply because they see Gabe's assistant as more redeemable than the typical school bully. This show is incompetent and I'll be thankful when it finally ends
When Nathalie first became the peacock, she WILLINGLY used the miraculous which she KNEW was BROKEN and the reason Emily is "dead". Her poor health is both thier faults. Now Gabe could have tried to stopped her, but Nathalie is the brains of the operation so she would have found another way to help him. Plus we don't know how long she's been with the family, specifically how long she's had residence at the house. Gabe HID the his stuff pertaining to the miraculous and she knew how to get to them. Seeing as she knew about Gabe's side gig he probably told her maybe for emergency. She probably knows the manor like the back of her hand or could just had the security system to look around. I'm not defending either party, but to put it simply (and probably in poor taste) SHE made her bed and now she's lying in it. Being the more "sane" of the two she could have stopped any time, I mean she stood idley by in the earlier seasons so what was the problem now? Both villians are smooth brains, but like S.P. said Gabe is going through some hard times while she's was just simping. Love make us do crazy things and you truely love someone you want to do everything in your power to help. The first time Nathalie transformed was a moment of panic and weakness, but after both "adults" knew better and chose to ignore the warning. Basically they fucked up and now she can't admit her fault. Yeah Gabe has gotten worse, but at least in earlier seasons the gave him moments. I kinda feel like she's taking her anger out on Gabe and spiting him by being a "mother figure".
The both suck and hope there's an episode where Emily's ghost of an illusion tells them they suck.
Imo both Gabe and Natalie are banking on the lucky charm. Either they get the miraculous and use it or she keeps it and uses the charm. There's nothing in the early seasons suggesting any different, only in s5 with gabe staying cataclysmed, which is also around the time Natalie changes her stance on helping Gabe and the one time she does get akumatized she's way more surgical in her attack. She didn't mention any of that tho and doesn't seem to have thought abt it at all so that's just reaching hard to white knight for her
She's one of the more interestingly written characters in the show
I can’t forgive her for what she did in cat blanc, I also will never forgive Gabriel for what he did in cat blanc ether and that’s when I started hating him to the core
I do see the issues with Nathalie and I agree her transition is sloppily written, but I can sort of see why she "turned" on Gabriel. The events of Evolution were the straws that broke the camel's back in part, but also there was a distinction from previous failures. In all the other failures thus far, she has seen or at least known about how Ladybug thwarted his plans. For whatever reason, Gabriel can't beat Ladybug. So Nathalie gives him an alternate plan that *doesn't involve Ladybug.* We have seen in the past that those sometimes *do* work.
While it is a little presumptive of Nathalie to assume Gabriel messed up (for all she knows, Ladybug could have forcibly prevented him from interfering in the past), it's reasonable to assume that he let his obsession prevent him following a plan that would have achieved what he wanted. Before they both had the excuse that Ladybug was an obstacle, but given that Gabriel had a clear cut chance to achieve his goal but threw it away, it meant that at this point, he's no longer caring about the same goal she wanted (bringing Emilie back) but wants to defeat Ladybug more than anything else.
I do think in her case, her having to live with what she did would be punishment enough.
You're right about all of this
I used to like Natalie but you opened up my eyes
Natalie deserves no sympathy and no one should ever forget what she willingly did. She's a grown woman not a child, she doesn't and never will have an excuse
Characterization in this show is...not good.
Everyone is kind of a PoS in various degrees.
I forgive the writers in season 1-3 and how Nathalie was written she probably didn't have much of an arch planned and originally they needed to follow certain guidelines to appeal to a certain audience and allow certain companies within the production and airing of the show so it more had to appeal to kids
i love nathalie, and frankly i just think she’s simply a victim of bad writing. they didn’t really know what to do with her until later on so her characterisation is so sporadic throughout the seasons. But i think in regards to s5, beforehand she was always confident that gabriel would win, which is why she continued to aid and abet him, and therefore she believed that once gabriel won, the world would start from scratch and all adrien’s previous trauma would be null and void in this new world. Now that Nathalie realised that the chances of him winning and slim to none, she’s probably come to the conclusion that she’d best make do with the adrien she has now (lol).
If she does get away with it, we can view the illness as her punishment, and savour every moment of it.
You definitely haven't seen the fanfics if you think the fandom sees Miss Bustier as a paragon of virtue.
In defense of season 1-3 Nathalie, in season one, Nathalie was more afraid of making Gabriel mad at her than in season 3, 4, and 5.
She is kinda selfish though (only selfless to those they care about idk the term), caring more about those that she lets her guard down to than innocent civilians. Probably why her last name is a play on words for heartless in French. There's only a few people she has strong connections to and she is shown to try not to get too attached to people (season 1 Nathalie is proof of this).
Stormy Weather 2 is the episode where we see Nathalie's internal thoughts in those thoughts we see she's getting sadder about Emilie's "disappearence" and "the deeper she got in her sleep, my sadness for her deepened too". She's coping with loss as well as Gabriel and Adrien. This episode is the first episode in which we hear that Nathalie developed feelings for Gabriel. A theory I have is she fell out of love with Gabriel at one point but then fell back in love after seeing how dedicated he is to his family and how willing he is to do anything for his wife. I suggest re-watching the scenes specifically with Nathalie in Stormy Weather 2.
Nathalie was shown to be disappointed and in despair when Gabriel decided to get back to akumatising people (closing the door as her head pushed against the door) The same episode she tells him he took a huge risk regarding Adrien in a video call. Nathalie at this point isn't as emotionally attatched to Adrien but manages to confront him about the risk Gabriel took. She is still not that confrontational and avoids getting in his bad graces.
Nathalie as Mayura is just not it and I don't like how the new game percieves her either. like cmon "I did it all for you, you know" that's too much simping for me. it would have been way more interesting if she was ALSO coping about Emilie's loss heck maybe be the reason as to why she's not as expressive or something like somewhat of a contrast to Gabe! I love the idealized version of Nathalie in my head more than how the show percieved her. Season 5 is peak Nathalie for me. Loved what they could've done for nathalie to develope into season 5 more than what is canon.
I was interested in Nathalie very early on in the series and grew attached to her character I was one of the people that liked her simping stage but as I grew up I grew a distaste for it and started to think maybe Gabe was leading her on like cmon that video game flashback scene he litterally said "as a display of my... affection" litterally leading her on not even correcting her when she started speculating what the status of their relationship is. Now I want her to be part of Adrien's family but definetly not with Gabriel (lol Go date Emilie when she comes back or something)
Thanks alot for saying this I love Nath
@@yasir_12345 Ye, It's kinda hyperbolic to say Nathalie is worse than Gabriel knowing he's the one submerging into his insane arc and Nathalie is the one snapping out of it and realizing she did something wrong by supporting him. She expressed she believes she's powerless and has no choice before, a moral responsibility as you will. Gabriel often weaponizes the fact that he's the father and he's the one that should be making decisions for his own good as far back as the episode Oni-chan! Nathalie has expressed genuine fear of what he was going to do during the flashback in the videogame which takes place the night before his first akumatisation. Nathalie was most definitely not the confident woman we see in season 5. Season 3 is when she really started testing her astray from obedience and the reaction was softer than season 1 from Gabriel. Gabriel isn't screaming at her like the beginning seasons and is actually talking to her as an equal even showing her through his own body language.
The writing of this show is all over the place...if your fans can predict your biggest plot twist then it means the journey has been boring and predictable...like a dad promising to take his kids to Disney World and then turning around and taking them to the grocery store. Sadly snticlimatic.
Gabriel never loved his family for eho they are. He only loved his idealized version of his family. He doesn't even love his son. He only loves the perfect idea of a son. And he definitely didn't love Emilie. He only loved what she could provide for her. He was never a nice person.
Gorilla should adopt Adrian after Nathalie and Gabe get arrested and or die.
Yeah!
I like Nathalie! She needs more screen time, but some decisions she made are just as bad as Gabe!
so ironic that she got redeemed and Chloe didn't
Lets be honest she will never be redeemed and she doesn't even need redemption
Agreed, Nathalie sucks. Possibly the worst thing she did was using the peacock miraculous knowing what it could do to her, meaning she knew that if Gabriel doesn't get his wish, she would die and Adrien would have no one to protect him from Gabe. Her redemption arc demonstrates an ongoing problem in Miraculous which is the writers don't seem to understand the gravity of what they wrote into Adrien's story i.e literal child abuse and neglect.
Nathalie does not suck she just cares too much what other people think and feel and never her own. So please don't say she suck
Why doesn't she just steal that stupid miraculous while he's sleeping.
He would wake up mate. Probably get her in trouble when he gets up. Frame her as the villain. And probably he sleeps in his own room with a lock duh 🙄🙄🙄...
But yeah, you're right. She should at least try.
I agree other than occasionally being a little nice to Adrien she just never helped him she never tried to convince Gabriel to spend time with his son even though she had power to do so. Like in one episode in which it was Adrien's birthday and marinette gave him a present Natalie gave that present to Adrien saying it was Gabe who prepared it she did that out of pity for Adrien and it looked like she cared for him when she could have just asked Gabriel to pay more attention to his son this whole time??
I agree with you babe and love your channel it's great AF! Keep up the good work mate!
I wonder, if Natalie only used the peacock once, how long would she have had before getting seriously sick? Adrien lived with his mom for 14-16 years and the way talked about Natalie getting sick, it would seem he knew his mom before she started showing symptoms.
The fact that Gabe is somehow more justifiable (though still very much in the wrong) than Natalie speaks volumes of both her character and the show's writing
If she is still a terrible or bad person, She would be still my favorite. Cuz she is. 🦚💜💙
HARD OBJECTION. Well sort of.
So half yes? Half no?
Kind of interesting how the characterization in Miraculous tends to go. A character like Natalie could be a lot of things of course, but I think what the creators (and fans to some extent) wanted her to be was a more morally grey character who is motivated mainly by love for Adrien, Gabe, and Emily, but ends up hurting them, herself, and Paris along the way.
But how she is in the show ends up being confusing and doesn't feel like a real person.
Which is rooted in the Gabe Problem, but, ya know.
I feel like a character like this would feel more real/relatable or more constructive to the story goals if they gave you more insight.
Is the absuive nature of Gabe's relationship with her and Adrien, multiplied with the loss of Emily and the temptation/hope of the Miraculous powers what makes her judgement poor?
Does she do things to protect others, mainly herself and Adrien, but only obstructs Gabe if he is clearly going against her protection? I.e she thinks she can protect everyone, including Gabe, only if she stays as his right hand?
Or is she just like Gabe, willing to throw away almost anything (particularly when it's not related to her) to achieve their goals? Are they bothe being corrupted by the power they have obtained? Or the broken Peacock Miraculous?
An interesting one could also be the idea that Emily was the one holding together the broken relationships forming around Gabe, herself, her family, and Natalie, but when she died it was already messed up and too late, because Gabe had already become abusive and needed more than her to fix it, and losing her made it worse.
As a viewer you might be able to see snippets of parts of these ideas being true, but with how the writing tends to flip quickly between story goals and character motivations, it's almost impossible to say what they really wanted to say with her.
While I might prefer a more complicated Natalie, one intwined with the other characters and who does terrible things but in a way that viewers can understand what's going on and relate but still believe to be wrong, there's nothing wrong with her being a simpler character. Being stereotypically evil or writers not showing motivations isn't inherently bad. But it always seems like the writers want it both ways, and execute it in a way where they get neither.
This realization also make her whole buying Adrien the sane gift every year worse. Like she should have taken the time to get him something he likes since she cares so much
she wasn't as attached to Adrien at the beginning of the series it was more of a development thing they had going for her. (Stormy Weather 2 told us through her inner thoughts that she was starting to grow more attached to Adrien as he grew.) Also, Nathalie was hired after Emilie's death which is the span of one year. Gabriel was the one getting Adrien the same gift every year. Nathalie wasn't even present in the Agreste household for more than one birthday.
@@TrickiTrickstars the timeline and story doesn't make much sense
Gaslight gatekeep girlboss
Through Passion, I’d definitely agree with you. But since then, I think she’s a lot like Felix. Confused, deeply flawed but more neutral than truly bad or evil
I feel that Natalie was complicit to all of Gabe's schemes because she possibly convinced herself that he was doing it out of love; which would blur the line of moral and immoral behaviour. This happens all the time in real life. People murder others who mess with the people they care about. And at this point, it is believed that Gabe was also convincing himself that he was doing it out of love. Only when Gabriel finally loses the last of his marbles and risks Natelies life, does she realizes that he is not doing it out of love. But that he is doing it out of madness. Again, humans aren't perfect. I love how the show portrays that. It if refreshing to watch a show where they put on display the grey areas in life and decision-making.
She loves/loved Gabriel but she also cares for her friend.
It feels like she helped Gabe because she's a simp but also because she believed this would bring back Emily but she realized that his stupidity and pride got the best of him when the reward was in front of him.
I do agree though, she went pretty far when she was helping Gabriel and bringing the recordings up bring up some contradictions but i do think that it also shows that she still cared for Emily and thought that she was doing things to bring her back and maybe she thought caring for her family was to help Gabriel but it's pretty sh!t that she didn't realize that it came at the neglect of Adrian.
Yes, she is a terrible person, but a great character. Yes, she did many horrible things, on the same level if not worse than Gabe is. But she has progress as a character. She went from just a side character, to a full villain, to someone who realized what she did was a mistake and tried to do whats right. I mean, come on, name another character in the show that has progression other than her and Kagami?
I do want to point out the fact/defend Natalie, on the fact on why she is turning on gabe, I don't think she is turning on have because he made her illness permanent
The reason why I say that is because, before the end of season 4. They didn't have all the miraculous, only the butterfly and the peacock and they was always losing. Natalie knowing she is on the losing team, willing let herself get an illness to help gave, as far as we know, she is unable to predict the future.
So my point is that she was giving herself this deadly illness with the only hope of salvation that maybe gabe can get the two miraculous!
She had no way of knowing that gabe would get the rabbit miraculous and have the ability to reverse this. Also he was clearly losing before the end of season 4. So from her point of view, she was willing giving herself an illness knowing or thinking their wouldn't be a cure all to help gabe.
So my whole point is, that I think Natalie turn against gabe is more selfless then we want to give her credit, I think she genuinely is fed up with gabe and it's not as selfish as, because of gabe, she is stuck with an incurable illness. Because like I been saying, when she gave herself the illness, she did so knowingly that their wouldn't be a cure!
I think we all forget something Natalie is still an employee the dynamic between her and Gabriel is not equal cause he can still fire her if she steps out of line and basically it feels more like they’re holding each other at gun point because if one squeals the other goes down too and they both go to prison likely die and Adrien has no one things were so simple before how the fuck have things gotten so complicated it feels like the writers are just making shit up as they go along
Nathalie está mejor escrita y desarrollada en los fanfictions del programa qué en el propio programa. Irónico.
Huh. Pardon if this is an unpopular take, but I feel like a character being a bad guy is not an excuse to write them poorly. And if they just forget that she was a bad guy, that will be disappointing.
nice another miraculous vid
I thought that the reason she does what she does for Gabriel was obvious...She is desperately in love with him!
i feel like the show writers are continuously gaslighting us
I think she does it because she finally sees that he’s evil after she stops simping
The sad thing is that the leaked final two episodes show that both Gabriel and Nathalie go unpunished for their crimes
lol Gabriel died and Nathalie experienced death and then revival. Lila can use the truth about what happened as blackmail against ladybug or Nathalie at any time. It'd be ironic for a liar to be the one that reveals the harsh truth. ;)
At this point, most people don't know how the season will end. And I say most because with the leaks things have gone wild, to say the least.
Now, apparently and from what I've heard, Gloob has some sort of last word of how the episodes are written, since they put a lot of money on the show. And with how the situation in Brazil is/was, i remember that showing Gabriel or Nathalie being arrested was sort of out of the question.
However, I am still curious on what the consequences for these will be. Because, Gabriel is the mastermind (not to mention that if his identity is publicly revealed, he would also be charged for almost starting a WW3), Nathalie and Tomoe are accomplices. And who knows who else in France is involved.
But also, Felix can be cataloged as an accomplice for having stolen the miraculous. And for all he did in emotion.
And then there we have his mom. Who is keeping the secret of Felix as well.
I mean, I understand that yes, Nathalie has done awful things in the past, and her present behavior doesn’t excuse her previous actions. But at the same time, I feel that she might have also been overwhelmed by grief, like Gabriel, and at the same time developed feelings for him (for some reason). Thus, it kinda led her to also be a terrible person like Gabriel. But I think at the same time, that her “redemption” wasn’t terrible either. She came to her senses after realizing Gabriel really is an idiot, and while yes, it can be justified that she only starts being better after realizing that Gabriel doomed her, but at the same time it also made her realize that she doesn’t have much time left and she regrets all those times that she also helped Gabriel neglect Adrien, something Gabriel is clearly beyond the point of feeling.
Also, I kind of feel that her “redemption” needed to happen this season as well if Adrien were to pursue a relationship with Marinette. We’ve seen previously that Gabriel has tried to separate them in the hopes of getting to Marinette and akumatizing her, leading to Cat Blanc, and a major reason the events of all that happened was because Nathalie went a long with the plan and revealed Adrien's identity to Gabriel. But now, even if Gabriel wants to do something against their relationship, the most he can do is separate them physically but can’t force them to actually break up because Nathalie would be against it.
Agreed. Nathalie also has to be instrumental in allowing Adrien and Marinette in pursuing a relationship when you consider that she initially sabotaged the relationship by taking Marinette's gift and presenting it to Adrien as though it was from his father. While her intent might not have been to separate the two, she did and it would make narrative sense if she evolved to a place where she made up for that error.
She this was starting to feel like a redconed
I don’t normally agree with you, but this time I completely agree.
I think it’s because she realises he’s evil after she stops simping for him
Natalie snaped when Gabriel messed up time travel thing by going after Ladybug and Cat Noir and failed at bringing Emily back. Which is i think the most problematic part of her: She doesn't think that him not accepting that his wife died is crazy. She just said that he's now obsessed with beating Ladybug and Cat Noir, that's the reason she thinks he's crazy and obsessed. She doesn't think endangering people, including Adrien, is bad. I don't see her as a reformed character at all. Maybe she stoped helping Gabriel in a way, but she's still not a good person at all.
I think Nathalie wants Gabriel to care about his son.
I love this
I think we can all agree that most of the writing in miraculous is down bad terrible, mostly with the characters
i hate how the fandom treats her now shes still terrible she hasnt told anyone yet
Huh, fair and valid points and opinions, i guess when putting everything through the entire Show into perspective, it does kind of make Nathalie’s supposed redemption fall a little flat, huh?
It’s a shame really, especially when considering that the reason for this is mostly because they didn’t have everything figured out with the Characters as the Show has gone on.
Still, we could still be surprised, i guess we’ll see.
0:00 I just realised In Risk/Strike Back, Cat noir pushes ladybug away from him after they move away from danger. This makes me sad for some reason
I don't think she is terrible. She just care who she love, but she is not selfish becouse she helped Gabriel when she was sick. She is definietly not selfiss. Maybe, she did some evil thing, but becouse she wanted them happy. And in the season 5 she realized what Gabriel doing is wrong and Adrien and Nathalies relatonship is grow now. She didn't let Gabriel treat his son a lot, and remember, she was the person who talked to Gabriel to let Adrien go to school. She cares Adrien because she loves Adrien. I love the way Adren and Nathalie relatonship in the s5 and I don't think Nathalie is a very bad person. Gabriel is the evil , but Nathalie realized the bad thing what he do, and she tries to stop him, to protect Adrien. She really cares Adrien. So I don't agree with you.
Everyone that gets the peacock miraculous is a morally grey character that has done absolutely bad shit makes me wonder if that pattern will also go into Emilie. 😭
This video is so controversal, I love it ngl ❤ I still do like Nathalie's character because I understand her
I have an Episode idea how about there is a Episode where it takes place before Emélie Disappeared so we could get a Adrien Based Episode or maybe even Flashbacks Adrien talking to Plagg about his Mother or something like that and while we're at it way not a Episode before Marinette were Ladybug to how she was like before and why she is the way she is now some backstory
You need a retrospective video
I think that they just didn't plan her story from the beginning and are just winging it
That might change in the season 5 finale
😅 no I think you're spot-on like her and Gabriel really didn't get their just reward honestly they were like forgiven by the end and that's not okay that's not fair that's just bowl honestly I would love to see them get their just deserts but no we have to go to the bad ending and make it all turn out okay for everybody even though they don't deserve it
Finally got to watch the show on Disney+ put had to skip past the cringe parts so much
I agree I got upset with them trying to course correct with her. It's annoying like she being aggressive to Gabe I am like ok but he could fire you at anytime. Like where this even coming from, like she gaslighting. I never saw it like oh she such a good person just like really. It doesn't make much sense with the added information we get
Wait adrien is a sentimonster???!!! When was that revealed?
It wasn't officially stated but there are so many obvious clues and evidence in the show that points to Adrian being a sentimonster
Honestly I always thought she went along with what Gabriel did not just cus she liked him, but she honestly hoped that things would be back to normal when Emily came back. And I don’t think she’s completely a bad person, she had a few good moments
I am SO behind on this season.
Some of these lines LOL 😂😂😂
Yup that’s show bisses for a show that makes no cents and will never be the way it should be
At the beginning they did not want nathalie a backstory maybe that’s why?
season 1 nathalie is a 🚩 imo
Nathalie gives me sociopath vibes, yet she’s my fave villain
Let's not forget that she how's the ability to manipulate the Adrian mind control